What is the potential of Perendev Magnetic Motors?

[K.J.Healey]

I figured this would have been talked about before, but i couldn't find it in search.
http://www.pureenergysystems.com/news/2004/06/30/6900029PerendevPowerMagneticMotor/

I know its not defying any real laws or anything and theyve been around forever, but I am wondering if anyone knows any info on them.

What sort of HP/Torque can they produce?
What magnitude of stray B field is there?

Why are they not researched as much? Limited supply of natural perm-magnets?

 

[Ivan Seeking]

"It has been proven mathematically that no combination of permanent magnets in any arrangement will generate power.

That is correct.

Also from the link

What is yet to be attained by anyone is a market-ready device. If Perendev continues on the track claimed on its site, it could achieve that distinction, and set the hitherto balking scientists community into motion to come up with theories of why it works.

Brady estimates that the first units will sell for around $8500 Euros, but that the price will decrease as volume sales increase.

But look, Howard Johnson did it twenty-five years ago! Unfortunately, his also was not quite ready for market...yet.

"We don't grant patents on perpetual motion machines," said the examiners at the U.S. Patent Office. "It won't work because it violates the law of Conservation of Energy," said one physicist after another. But because, inventor Howard Johnson is not the sort of man to be intimidated by such seemingly authoritative pronouncements, he now owns U.S. Patent No. 4,151,431 which describes how it is possible to generate motive power, as in a motor, using only the energy contained in the atoms of permanent magnets. That's right. Johnson has discovered how to build motors that run without an input of electricity or any other kind of external energy!
The monumental nature of the invention is obvious, especially in a world facing an alarming, escalating energy shortage. Yet inventor Johnson is not rushing to peddle his creation as the end-all solution to world- wide energy problems. He has more important work to do. First, there's the need to refine his laboratory prototypes into workable practical devices -in particular a 5,000-watt electric power generator already in the building. His second and perhaps more difficult major challenge: persuade a host of skeptics that his ideas are indeed practical.

http://www.newebmasters.com/freeenergy/sm-text.html

The same scams are used over and over again.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

It has been proven mathematically that no combination of permanent magnets in any arrangement will generate power

Okay, we have a request for the proof of this. As I recall it is a direct consequence of the fact that the divergence of the field is zero... If anyone else remembers this proof, please post. Otherwise, I will try to dig it up later, but I may or may not remember how to do this.

The thread is open for the proof to be posted.

 

[zoobyshoe]

I wrote a nice long post in response to the OP last night and when I went to hit the submit button, I found a small, grey being had locked the thread.

Today all I want to say is that Howard Johnson wasn't a scam artist but a kind of bumbler who fooled himself. His motor worked if, and only if, he was holding the "pusher" magnet in his hand. He tried a couple times to mount that magnet but couldn't seem to position it correctly. It turned out, of course, that he was providing the motive power himself by moving the magnet he was holding back and forth. He was fully aware his hand was moving back and forth but he thought the rotor magnets were pushing his hand away and all he was doing is putting it back into position. Someone had to explain to him what was going on and why he couldn't get it to work when he mounted the magnet. Once he realized his mistake, he stopped work on it.

He showed a working model to the patent examiner, one where he held the pusher magnet in his hand, and the examiner didn't realize what was going on either, so Howard wasn't alone in his folly.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Sorry, I guess I shouldn't have locked the thread.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

It should also be noted that at face value the second law excludes the possibility of a self-powered, permanent magnet motor, but even if we assume that the magnets somehow acquire their energy from some unseen and previously untapped supply, there is a proof from Electrodynamics that no configuration of permanent magnets could work. Hopefully someone will get me off the hook by posting the proof.

 

[zoobyshoe]

The main thing that I understand which makes it impossible, is that the field of a permanent magnet is a static force, just like gravity.

The field around a PM is always at the same strength. Therefore it is no different than an invisible rubber ball. If two magnets push away from each other, it's only because someone has first pushed them together.

Two unlike poles attracting are like two objects with a stretched rubber band between them. The pull toward each other always exists, even when friction prevents it from acting. Here again, to trigger them to move, you have to do the work to get them close enough to overcome friction. That's a one shot deal. Once together, they don't move apart on their own. Work has to be done by an outside agent to set the situation up again.

If PM's only blinked on and off by themselves we could make a motor in a second. As it is, their fields are static, and no more a source of energy than a rubber ball would be.

 

[FredGarvin]

This looks a lot like something we discussed in the engineering section, porbably a year ago or so...It was at the same stage then too. Some german company was tooling up to start production.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

The main thing that I understand which makes it impossible, is that the field of a permanent magnet is a static force, just like gravity.

There is a formal proof from E&M, but since I don't remember how to do it, and since it doesn't seem to be in my old E&M book [by Jackson], I'll have to try to find it in my old notes.

 

[K.J.Healey]

Yea, i can't think of what it would be other than something like computing work done to move a magnet to a position with reference to another magnet is equal regardless of paths (work in=work out), but in my mind that doesn't seem to work if youre somehow able to shield or shape the magnetic field. But if you were able to seriously "shield" a magnetic field, or even shape it so that the work done to move it into a position where there is a potential gradient away from the magnet greater than the path from which you came... I don't know. I know its something simple like Del dot B = 0 that proves this, but I am not sure why.

I think ill try to do a mathematical model of this system and see it if works. I haven't done fields in a while, but the magnetic properties of a material lie on its surface right? makes sense since the dipoles would cancel out internally.

But to do this, and to answer my previous curiosity, what does the force/potential field look like on the sides of a magnet? if you were to break apart a magnet into squares on the surface, on the side from the N to S is it a gradual change or a quick step?

Its hard not to think of E field properties when dealing with B fields.

 

[zoobyshoe]

if you were to break apart a magnet into squares on the surface, on the side from the N to S is it a gradual change or a quick step?
I

I'm not sure what you're asking, but recall that the field of a permanent magnet is exactly the same as the field of a loop of current carrying wire. If you first envision the field around a straight current carrying wire and understand how there is a direction inherent in that field, at right angles to the direction of current flow, and then imagine forming that wire into a loop, you'll be able to see where the apple shaped magnetic field comes from, and the "direction" things want to take when in that field. It's convenient to think of the field as emerging from one end, bending around and re-entering the other end.

 

[K.J.Healey]

Yea, that's probably what makes the most sense in my mind, but I am trying to find out what would make the most sense for a mathematical model with the magnet not being a close-to-point dipole.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Yea, that's probably what makes the most sense in my mind, but I am trying to find out what would make the most sense for a mathematical model with the magnet not being a close-to-point dipole.

Still not sure what you are trying to figure out.

Just for good measure here's a page of images of the Earth's magnetic field:

http://images.google.com/images?q=earth's+magnetic+field&hl=en&btnG=Search+Images

All magnetic fields have this same shape, regardless of size.

(I should qualify that by saying that on the sun [and stars in general] magnetic fields are extremely convoluted and complex and not static in form.)

 

[K.J.Healey]

I understand what the shape of a magnetic field is, but let me try to ask it this way:

Imagine a cylindrical magnet parallel to the Z axis in standard cylindrical coordniates. Assume I wanted to find the magnetic field intensity at some point R=1, Phi= doesn't matter, and Z = 0? So basically in the plane at its equator. How would I find this intensity and/or vector.

Going from a standard representation of magnetic fields using a current-carrying coil, the vector would obviously be in the +- Z direction. Does the magnetic field intensity magnitude then fall off in the Z=0 plane, for a variable R, as R squared inverse? If so I can accept that, but what about everywhere else, say Z= greater than the magnet (above the North Pole), R=0. still 1/R^2 ?

I'm trying to get discriptive formulae for B/H fields surrounding a bar or cylinder magnet.

 

[Braiderman]

A reasonable proof is - a permanent magnet exhibits a static magnetic field. This magnetic field is termed a 'conservative force field'. This means that moving from one position A to another pos B in this field, the work/energy required is independant of the path chosen.

 

[uart]

I'm wondering how they (perendev) get away with selling these obviously bogus products. Take a look at their "product page". How are they getting away with this?

http://www.perendev-power.com/products.htm

 

[russ_watters]

Well they can get away with it because they aren't selling anything. They are always "almost" ready to start producing them.

 

[uart]

Well they can get away with it because they aren't selling anything. They are always "almost" ready to start producing them.

Yes they obviously will never be able to supply some of those things that they're advertising (and it's so obvious that they don't even have them as the images shown are clearly rendered from a graphics program rather than actual photos). It's just such an obvious scam I wonder how they manage to avoid being shutdown by whatever fair-trade or other regulations they have in Germany where they seem to be based.

I just poked around on their site and found some interesting things. Under the "technology" link there was this weak excuse.

Reason for delivery delay : Update

Relating to problem we had in the past, this situation has been resolved and we are proceeding with setting up manufacturing plants in Europe, we intend to setup a plant in Austria in the near future and are waiting for the contract to be finalized.
In addition we are building a small demo unit to show to selected clients on the working of magnetic motors, this unit will be a scaled down unit of the full size motor, the unit is currently been build in Switzerland and will be available for viewing in the near future.
We are building a 300kw unit for demonstration that will be show to selective clients soon, if you wish to attend please make reservations through our German office by email admin@perendev-power.com
As units are produced we will advise clients who have been waiting for units as to the time frame for delivery.

Then under the investor link there is this.

Investment opportunity is now available for those interested in our future

We have a number of major developments which are owned and patented by Perendev, (the magnetic motor, the Air motor or Liquid Nitrogen motor, Hydrogen for motor vehicles) plus a UV water cleansing plant, Noise reduction equipment and many more projects..

All are cutting-edge technologies that will reduce the impact of global warming and/or greatly contribute to extensive
environmental clean up.

Investment opportunity is now available for those interested in our future.

We are at this point preparing for mass production. we have licensed agents in the process of setting up and should be in production during 2008.

This is why we believe that your investment would be a tremendous plus for us in finalizing these projects.

Following on from successful prototype development, we have already been approached by interested industrialists to set up major manufacturing facilities throughout Europe to mass produce the motors and other technologies.

We therefore have all the future production elements and marketing arrangements taken care of and are now ready to enter the market.

On the nitrogen or compressed air motor we have a major prize waiting for us in the form of a potential order for 50 000 motors (worth a minimum 220million Euro), South African mines that require our product to power underground ventilation fans that are currently connected to electric power, the problem is that the under ground cables are stolen and then sold for its copper weight. To put an end to this, the mines have decided to replace the current installation and run compressed air to our motors to drive the fans.

We have the formal letters of intent from them regarding this.

With regard to the Magnetic motor, Perendev has orders for purchase for around 1,625. million Euro at this stage, and cover just about every country in the world.

The foregoing gives you a broad appreciation of the distinct opportunities we have and we would like the opportunity to discuss it with you.

If you are interested in Investing on the ground floor with the potential of massive growth in the future, contact us at the following email address.

mikebrady@perendev-power.com

Many thanks

Michael J. Brady

So it looks like a pretty obvious scam. They're using the orders on the impossible free energy motors that clearly will never be delivered to give them credentials for asking for investor money that will no doubt go directly to allow Brady to continue to pay himself to run the company. What a disgusting scamster!

 

[redargon]

I like how their company consists of one designer/inventor (cough crackpot cough) and an attorney :rofl:

one to scam and the other to handle all the court cases.

 

[K.J.Healey]

I like how old this (my) post is. Shows how far I've come in physics, I could completely answer my questions about magnetic fields of a cylinder off axis now. (expansion of poles for one).

This is OLD! :)

 

[Savant13]

Do we know if the magnets can move freely?