View Full Version : Racism....
I grow up around a lot of white kids, so most of my friends are white, anyway....
around where i live, whites hang out with whites (usually), asians with asians (i hang out with them too), hispanics with hispanics, etc. and one thing is really screwed up. we were at school, and there were these black kids that called me a chink, and called my friends stupid crackers and honkies, (i dunno why, guess they just dont like us or something) but then, after a while, we called them black *** holes, cuz its only fair (lol). then we all get into a huge fight, and then these teachers come and break it up. the other kids are saying that we called them "racial terms" and we said that they did too, but then, the teachers we're blaming us for calling them names back! and later on, we get in trouble, and they just get a warning... i know we shouldve kept our mouths shut, but then they called us things that are tons more worse!
society is screwed up, and there is way too much reverse discrimination everywhere.
and for the people who are gonna say, "oh, black people deserve more rights, because they were enslaved by the white man many years ago"
but remember this, that was like 150 years ago, and my friends are german... germans came in like the 1900's, so my friend's ancestors didnt do anything...
The Grimmus
Dec11-03, 05:47 PM
Damn that, and affermitive action, for far too logn have peopel been afriad of beign raciest in simple actions
ur right, affirmative action is also wrong.. just cuz ur black or hispanic, u should get to get a better chance of getting into college? no u shouldnt
wasteofo2
Dec11-03, 05:51 PM
Did you physically fight, or verbally?
No you shouldn't have kept your mouth shut, someone insults you, insult them back, assuming you know they won't knife/shoot you for it or something.
oh, verbally... fighting would then let them have a reason to sue, so i didnt attack.
adrenaline
Dec11-03, 06:21 PM
Originally posted by JohnB
...society is screwed up, and there is way too much reverse discrimination everywhere.
and for the people who are gonna say, "oh, black people deserve more rights, because they were enslaved by the white man many years ago"
....but remember this, that was like 150 years ago,..
Considering equality of racial rights has only been legally gauranteed for a little over 30 out of the 208 years of constitutionally ratified legal slavery, it wasn't that long ago.
interesting comment from a guy with a signature that says
"Official race member of the Crank Crushing Rednecks 24 hours of Adrenaline."
adrenaline
Dec11-03, 06:47 PM
Originally posted by JohnB
interesting comment from a guy with a signature that says
"Official race member of the Crank Crushing Rednecks 24 hours of Adrenaline."
Yes, thankyou, Our team came in third. It was tongue in cheek, such is the culture of mountain bike racing. Some other team names....Five Dicks and a Chick, Four Straight Guys and Steve, The Inadvertant Tree Huggers. We were the only team on the podium with a woman (moi), black, hispanic, two asians etc. etc. It is a joke. It was such a nice play on a name with such a motley crew, besides, I didn't pick out the name.
hmm, jews were slaves for like thousands of years, does that mean that they should get more rights too?
adrenaline
Dec11-03, 07:48 PM
Originally posted by JohnB
hmm, jews were slaves for like thousands of years, does that mean that they should get more rights too?
Don't know how you presume I am completely pro- affirmative action since I am not.
But since you bought that up. Some misconceptions need to be cleared up about it. The idea is basically that if a business is hiring fairly, the employee base should roughly look like that of the community. If a business is all white in a community that is 25% black, then there are probably grounds for at least looking into things. Now, people who don't have the brightest minds may have misread this basic idea as being "You must have X percentage of minority employees!" but anyone on any side of this issue who makes such a proclamation is simply not understanding the principle as it is intended.
Affirmative Action is not, as it is often described, intended as "punishment" for white people. Rather, it's a way to use hiring and admissions procuedres to correct the lack of opportunities to a select group of people created by two centuries of hiring and admission procedures specifically designed to deny these people opportunities.
Affirmative Action programs are not supposed to be permanent. Again, the idea is to take a group of people who have been denied opportunities that allow them to have the same success and give them those opportunities. It was a tool to accelerate desegregation. Jews were not denied entrance into schools or employment in our country that in any way approached the degree to which the blacks were exposed to. It was designed to redress one country's particular policies towards its minorities. Once this goal is completed, the programs are supposed to go away. It is good to see that the Supreme Court, although, not completely eliminating affirmative action, has begun to stress these limits on its use. I also think people forget that asians, women, and hispanics have inadvertantly fallen under the umbrella of "affirmative action" if one looks at an institution's desire for diversity. However, the Blacks have recieved all the negative connotations associated with it ie: Black man at Harvard is seen as posessing inferior qualifications compared to a Hispanic woman at Harvard.
wasteofo2
Dec11-03, 08:20 PM
A company hiring fairly shouldn't nessicarily have an employee base representitive of their community, they should hire the people who are best for the job. If the black people in community x waste their highschool career by drinking, smoking pot, skipping class and doing poorly in general, don't go to college or go to a poor college and don't do well, and the asians all join extra cirricular activities, study hard and do well in school in general, go on to reputable colleges and get good grades, why should anyone hire black people over asians, when the asians are clearly better educated and qualified for job x?
Ok first of all i am not rasict one bit, i have asian, black, indian friends. My girlfriend is chinese and im white. Race doesn't mean much to me. But from my experience black people are the most racist people. (At least around where i live). If a black guy calls me a cracker or something, i don't give a damn, i will call him the N word. I don't see how the N word is any worse that cracker. That happend to me and my friends and all these black guys couldn't beleive that we called them that after they called us "Stupid White Crackers". Lots of black people still complain that their people where slaves, blah, blah, blah. It wasn't us who made them slaves, it was people that lived along time ago. The world has changed and everybody have the same rights as everybody else now. So get over it already! All the world problems these days are because of racism. Palestinians and Isralies, Almost every third world culture and americans. I just don't see the big deal. Why can't people just realize that we are all the same underneath our skin and religion. It's all bull**** to me. Argh, now im all pissed off....[:((]
what people often forget is that no only blacks were slaves indians jews mexicans not just mexicans most enthinc groups are often inslaved in sweat shops slavery goes on in the world all the time i could think hundreds of names for every enthnic group not just including skin color people with different sexual prefrences are also commented on also i wanted to bring up the question (do u consider black history month to be racist)
Ok first of all i am not rasict one bit, i have asian, black, indian friends. My girlfriend is chinese and im white. Race doesn't mean much to me. But from my experience black people are the most racist people. (At least around where i live). If a black guy calls me a cracker or something, i don't give a damn, i will call him the N word. I don't see how the N word is any worse that cracker. That happend to me and my friends and all these black guys couldn't beleive that we called them that after they called us "Stupid White Crackers". Lots of black people still complain that their people where slaves, blah, blah, blah. It wasn't us who made them slaves, it was people that lived along time ago. The world has changed and everybody have the same rights as everybody else now. So get over it already! All the world problems these days are because of racism. Palestinians and Isralies, Almost every third world culture and americans. I just don't see the big deal. Why can't people just realize that we are all the same underneath our skin and religion. It's all bull**** to me. Argh, now im all pissed off....
I find myself agreeing with you well on this one. It wasn't them that were made slaves, it was their ancestors. It wasn't us that made their ancestors slaves, it was our ancestors. So what's all the fuss about? Can't everyone just forgive eachother of the mistakes of their fathers? It seems minority groups are jumping whenever insulted, then run off accusing someone of racism. [8)]
Something wrong with this picture?
Though we should treat all ethnic groups as equals, that doesn't mean we should treat people that grew up in different cultures the same way. One of my more opened minded teachers went on about how people used to say they had to be "color blind." But that is just silly because you don't shake hands with someone that lives in a place where handshaking is an insult. See my point? Anyone can out loud point out someones hair color without trouble, yet pointing out skin color is unacceptable?
wasteofo2
Dec12-03, 12:00 AM
Originally posted by gimpy
All the world problems these days are because of racism. Palestinians and Isralies, Almost every third world culture and americans. I just don't see the big deal. Why can't people just realize that we are all the same underneath our skin and religion.[:((]
The economy in america was failing until fall and the unemployment rate is still around 6% in america, was/is that due to racism?
Muslims and jews never really liked each other, but the big cause for the palestine/isreal thing is due to the fact that isreal came in and took ****loads of palestine's land. Anyone who's had large chunks of their land taken over by someone else, no less highly important to the religion of the people who owned it before it was taken over, would be pissed off about it.
You said you thought black people were the most racist and expect to be treated specially, yet you're saying they're the same as everyone else as well?
I think the system should be entirely meritocratic. How far you go and what you succeed in should be determined only by your relevant qualities/traits/skills. If there are 100 positions and it so turns out (unlikely) that only 1% of whites in a 99% black community are suitable for the job for whatever reason, then those whites should get the job.
Suppose, hypothetically, a domestic intelligence agency needs to infiltrate a white supremacist group which plans to use terrorism to achieve their goals. Affirmative action says they should hire a black agent for the job because they are short on the black:white agent ration at the moment. A meritocratic system says a white agent will have a better chance of success (duh?!). Can you see the absurdity here?
As for the occasional reports you see floating around saying that the racial IQs are, in decreasing order: White, Hispanic then Black...hence the need for affirmative action...let me point out that affirmative action is really just inverse racism. "Lets fix racism by being racist." Duh...again. If you can't make the grades then tough luck...its nothing personal about your race. All affirmative action really says at a fundamental level is "Race counts". The message we are trying to get across with anti-racism laws is that "Race does NOT count".
Originally posted by wasteofo2
Muslims and jews never really liked each other, but the big cause for the palestine/isreal thing is due to the fact that isreal came in and took ****loads of palestine's land. Anyone who's had large chunks of their land taken over by someone else, no less highly important to the religion of the people who owned it before it was taken over, would be pissed off about it.
You said you thought black people were the most racist and expect to be treated specially, yet you're saying they're the same as everyone else as well?
Being an atheist, I am in a comfortable position to see either side of the Israeli/Palestine issue. As for your point about the Israelis taking Palestinian land, go back a few centuries more and it was actually the Arabs taking Israeli land. The Israelis are just...returning home.
I think it is unfortunately true that many Black people have a chip on their shoulder because of the unjust treatment they had in the past. Whether or not they could forget it is not the point - they aren't. Just the other day, a close friend of mine was accused by a black driver of racism just because she was reserving a parking space for a friend. I mean, WTH?! Can we even park a car without being accused of being racist?
Then theres the issue that police officers in the UK don't want to do as many stop & searches on black people because of being accused of racism. The result: the proportion of white/blacks in the population and stop & searches to that ratio is skewed in favour of blacks. More inverse racism.
well put, tyro.[:))]
I was reserving that post space for my friend though.[:D]
Hah! I see now. You took the space because I'm American!
Oh ya? Well I'm not to fond of people with the letter, "T" in their username either.[:D]
Affirmative action will be necessary until we start making opportunities equal...which is more of a class issue, but due to centuries of slavery and institutional racism minorities generally start life far behind white people.
Its' simple really. Any group that gets time in front of the television cameras will influence politicians, and they will influence school policy. So if you want relatively equal treatment, first you need to complain about everything in front of the TV cameras.
Regarding the African slave trade (from a documentary I have on video and from my sociology notes):
NOTES ON THE AFRICAN SLAVE TRADE
According to the Goray (I think they said Goray) Island (one of the major slaving centres in Africa) Bureau of Tourism, it was African tribes warring on each other, selling each other to the African slave traders on the coast, who sold them to European ships. The island slave trade was run mostly by black women in the eighteenth century.
All along the Slave Coast, as it was called bak then, you can see the European coastal settlements. These towns are fortified. And you may notice that thier gun emplacements are ALL pointed out to sea. All the forts were designed to protect against the sea. They were not fighting any locals for slaves. They needed arms only to fight rival European factions. Almost without exception, these fortified towns were set up with the permission of the local African rulers. The Europeans were there on the sufference of the local African rulers. Documents granting trading rights to specific European nations were signed by the local African rulers; and no, they weren't forced into it; the locals had entire nations, while the Europeans had only a few people, and the local rulers were paid very well for the rights (Yes, just like everyone else, they wanted wealth, nice things, power, et cetera).
Most European traders were too damn scared to go inland. They often took enough water and food to make the whole round trip, because they were too scared to make forays into the forest to find stuff while in Africa.
From Professor Elisee Soumonni, Universite Nationale du Benin: "People often don't realise that Africans themselves took part in the trade. That's why, when looking at the question of responsibility, one must admit that there is a responsibility or a complicity within Africa. Because it would have been impossible for Europeans to ship out so many people without the benefit of some internal collaboration at one level or another. There was a deep involvement of Africans in the trade."
When Europeans were actually buying slaves, there was a network of trade trails throughout the area which carried slaves, all tied in lines in ropes, bought and sold from one African trader to the next until some eventually reached the coast. Such convoys could take as long as a year to reach the coast.
From Professor John Fynn, University of Ghana: "People were coming down, as it were, in relays. It was simply trade. Trading with people who wanted our gold, or our slaves. And we want their guns, their gin, their rum, their crops, and so on. So Africans were bringing down the trade, and the Europeans were recieving them. And this was what they called the Castle Trade. Castle Trade - Europeans don't have to venture inland. Trade was brought to them, by the Africans themselves. Whether it is gold, or slaves, it was an African affair."
Slaves had been part of many African cultures long before Europeans arrived. They fought in armies, served in homes, worked as farmers and labourers and such.
One African king executed two of his slaves every single morning in gratitude for a good night's sleep. Another king decorated his palace walls with the heads of his slaves; at one time he had 127 of them executed to complete the line, fill a gap. Some slaves were executed to stop or start rain, bring better crops, et cetera.
Slaves have been exported from Africa, by Africans, for thousands of years, to Cairo, Constantinople, Baghdad, and so on. The trans-Saharan slave trade alone over the few centuries prior to Europeans joining in swallowed over three million slaves, according to estimates based on surving contracts and skeletal remains.
From Akosua Perbi, University of Ghana: "There were other slave markets in Ghana. In the northern part of Ghana where we are right now, there were about four markets, including Salaka. And yet Salaka became the most famous, because of its position. So Salaka was blessed, if you like, geographically, strategically. There were professional merchants who traded all over West Africa, across the trans-Saharan trade. And we find them in Salaka market. Then there were the individual merchants, somebody wanting a wife, or perhaps the wife is barren. The person would come as an individual, and come and purchase one female slave to marry, to bear him children. So it was predominantly an African market, predominantly an African enterprise, predominantly an African setting... So far as they were concerned, it was profitable business, and that was all that mattered, at that time of the trade."
The trans-Atlantic trade was only possible at all because the slave trade was already an ingrained part of Africa. Making war, and selling the losers into slavery was a very common part of life in Africa.
From Venture Smith (the name was obviously given by his eventual owners, his adventures written down by them too), an African slave, who was forced to march four hundred miles to the coast by African slavera after they tortured his father to death in front of him: "I was obliged to carry on my head a large flat stone, weighing twenty-five pounds. These burdens were very grievous to me, being only about six and a half years old."
From another slave taken as a child: "There came a merchant who told me that if I would go with him I should see houses with wings walk upon the water, and should also see the white folks. And should bring me back again soon."
Kwane Nyki the 12th, Paramount Chief of the Assins. His ancestors wiped out heaps of other tribes in their area, selling many into slavery. He said: "What I learnt from my ancestors, or my predecessors, was that this place was that this place was a slave market. Here became the centre, or the last stop, where they had plenty of water, plenty of land to bury their dead. And they fattened them here, and sell them. For us, a day's walk to Cape (couldn't understand his next word, the name of the place)."
Once a year the Assins have a ceremony to remember the slaves they caught themselves or passed on through their lands. They pray for the slaves' souls to be at rest and such. The Assin traded slaves for guns, gunpowder, Jamaican rum, sugar, bananas, et cetera.
Europeans shipped twenty million guns into Africa as payment for slaves. These guns went to the African nations who supplied the slaves.
In the Homi nation, the King saw the European merchants as subordinates under his own rule, a part of his own slave expoeting business. You could not trade in these places without the permission of the local African authorities. The African who acted as the go-between in the Homi land would not allow a European to trade until every person even slightly related to the business to come had been thoroughly bribed.
From Martine De Souza (she works now as a tour guide), a black woman who is a descendent of Fransisco De Souza, a rather bad European man who had more than 40 black wives and fathered more than ninety sons there: "With the African-Americans whose ancestors suffered and who still live with discrimination today, the reaction is completely different. They become furious. They weep and wail. They even thump the walls. And they say 'I didn't know Blacks contributed so much to the slave trade.' And I tell them 'You shouldn't always blame the Whites, because Blacks also took part in it. Without them, the trade wouldn't have been so easy.'"
Many of the African suppliers of slaves went to North America to live for short periods with their European business-associates. They went to school there, lived the good life, then went home and improved their own slave business.
Letter from a Nigerian (in Calabar) slave-trader to his associates in England: "Dear Gentlemen. Captain John Burrow arrived at this river on the fourth day of May with a very fine cargo. I hope his ships carry four hundred and sixty slaves. I don't keep him long, and I think he'll get to Liverpool fifteen or twenty day March. I am your dear Eyboyoung Effyoung."
Another letter from an African slave trader in Calabar: "I want two gun for every slave I send. Send me some writing paper, and two sheep. PS: remember me to your wife."
Another letter from an African slave trader in Calabar: "Send plenty of ship's guns. Send me one looking glass six feet long and six feet wide. And send two pewter pistols."
In 1807, Britain abolished the trans-Atlantic slave trade; several other European nations followed suit. Many African rulers lodged official protests. In 1820, a white delegation reached the Ashanti king, who told them: "The white men do not understand my country, or they would not say the slave trade was bad. But if they think it bad now, why did they think it good before?"
After that decision by Britain and others, the internal and trans-Saharan African slave markets continued. They died out only at the start of the twentieth century.
-------------------------------------------
Well, there's some notes on slavery in and from Africa. That's called research (books and documentaries). To blame it solely on Europeans is plain old racism. The Europeans buyers were slaving scum, true, but so were the African suppliers of slaves. These are some of the facts of the issue.
Originally posted by Zero
Affirmative action will be necessary until we start making opportunities equal...which is more of a class issue, but due to centuries of slavery and institutional racism minorities generally start life far behind white people.
Asian minorities don't seem to have that problem. They get ahead even without affirmative action. Even with all the immigrant stigma, financing and visa issues they are burdened with. The opportunities can be equal, and even more than equal...but to speak metaphorically, some fish simply won't bite, and you can't force them to do it. It is not up to us to roll out the red carpet and to be the ones that do the hard work to make their lives better.
Take Malaya, for example. I swotted up on the country's politics and history when I went there for a holiday a few years back. The Bumiputeras (translated to mean, quite egotistically, Earth Princes, IIRC) or Malays get affirmative action laws such as reduced loan interest rates, reduced car and housing prices, employment quotas, student proportion quotas and the unspoken law that upper echelon managers must be both Malay and Muslim. Some of my parents friends who tried to venture into that country complained about these unspoken racist rules. If you want to do business in that country, and want to do it with other companies, you must have a Malay + Muslim manager. Or else no deals. These laws (constitutional or unspoken) were implemented as part of a scheme by the government after British independence to 'correct' the economic imbalance of the Malay race due to our British divide & conquer strategy.
The end result was that Malays became lazy and expected everything to be handed to them on a silver platter, simply because of their heritage as a Malay Muslim. I didn't say this. Their ex-PM, Mahatir said that. Malayan universities turn away minority Chinese and Indian applicants with superior grades, and take underperforming Malays because of affirmative action. I'm not saying Malays are stupid (actually, the ex-PM also said that, in his book, "The Malay Dilemma"), just that they became the victim of (originally) well-meaning affirmative action.
If the system is entirely meritocratic, everyone will be judged on aspects on the scorecard which are much more impartial and objective. Like IQ, test scores, project marks, employment history, etc. Everyone will strive to accomplish in these respects.
adrenaline
Dec12-03, 03:15 AM
Opponents of affirmative action need to recognize that "equality of opportunity" is not nearly as simple as it sounds. But supporters of "affirmative action" have to understand its limits.
This limit has to be clearly limited, otherwise, it too can easily end up as precisely the kind of routine labeling and treatment according to race, ethnicity etc. that it was meant to expunge as people have pointed out on this thread.
Who doesn't want to live in a color blind society or sex blind society and to base everything on merit? But we don't.
Prestigious school admissions still look at alumni standing and donations of the parents, so unless this is eliminated, a more inferior caucasion will be equally admitted under the umbrella of their parents donations and alumni status just as the minority admitted under the umbrella of affirmative action. Fortunately for the caucasian, society does not hold it against him or her. ( In fact, you can become President of the United States!) I realize this is a small example and using academia once again, but you get the gist.
Affirmative action is an imperfect solution for an imperfect world.
Personally, I think that it is not necessary in the Northeast, Midwest,or west coast. However, as one who lives in the South, I still see blatant racism. I have been part of the admission committee on and off for our medical school and seen a Black Westing House Science Award winner, varsity swimmer and state champion with 3.89 averages as a physics major from Cornell university passed over for a white football player from University of Georgia with 3.5 average as a economics major! Racism still exists, even in the Ivory halls of acadamia. You bet your *** it exists on the coorporate level. In this case, something must be in place that will allow an equally or superiorly qualified black applicant the opportunity to reach his or her goal! And that's the point, most ant-affirmative action people are equally prejudicial in assuming it only protects inferior candidates ....it is about giving the chance for the equally qualified or superior minority to gain access to the system. (Unfortunately our school had "met its minimum" quota") and one thing led to another..... but won't go into that.
Of all the problems with Affirmative Action, the biggest one is ignorance. People (on both sides) make knee-jerk reactions out of laziness or motives that overgeneralize the main purpose of affirmative action, and that was... an temporary and imperfect solution, to redress and correct our country's backward policies towards our minorities. We have made great strides and as stated before, the Supreme Court realizes this and has already put a tether on Affirmative Action in its latest ruling regarding the UNiversity of Michigan case.
Malaysia is my home country so I will comment on that. These elitist practices are just that, to entrench and empower the ruling ethnic and religious party. Not an effort to redress and correct past wrongs. Their policies are not affirmative action in the sense that I have described above.
twizted1
Dec12-03, 08:07 AM
I'm not in the least racist...but I have to put in my $.02 on affirmitave action.
From what i've seen of affirmitive action at my college here in Tennessee is that under performing black students will get picked over higher performing students of ANY other race. Their scholarship money is also VERY skewed. A minority student with the same gpa and similar act/sat scores will get roughly 2-2.5 times the scholarship money for a semester than a white student with the same scores. My scholarship pays my tuition and $100 for books each semester(roughly $1400), where as the minority scholarship for the same scores pays tuition, and about $1200 for expenses (roughly $2500).
Also, in the small town i live in, (predominately white ~3-4000 ppl 70%white or so), there are the few rednecks who are racist, but generally everyone gets along unless something is "started" between them. One of the cops up here was accused of racism for pulling over hispanic drivers, and waiting outside of a bar to see if anyone appeared to be driving under the influence. The basis of the accusation was that he pulled over an unusually high number of hispanics, but he pulled over everyone he thought to be guilty of dui, they were just doing the majority of the drinking and driving.
Just my $.02 for what its worth...
-Ty
Who doesn't want to live in a color blind society or sex blind society and to base everything on merit?
I'd hate to live in a colour-blind and sex-blind society. I think those who want that have not thought it through properly. I quite like having people all different. I like girls. I like that girls are shaped different, and I like looking at them. What a boring world it would be if we didn't notice the groovy differences.
Prestigious school admissions still look at alumni standing and donations of the parents, so unless this is eliminated, a more inferior caucasion will be equally admitted under the umbrella of their parents donations and alumni status just as the minority admitted under the umbrella of affirmative action.
Piffle. In the USA, minority students get bonus points on their SAT scores just for being in minorities.
Of all the problems with Affirmative Action, the biggest one is ignorance.
The biggest problem is that AA is a truly ridiculous system. It is geared toward granting special rights to a minority, not toward enforcing equality. Any time a government has ANY system which focuses on serving one small segment of the community based on their race, gender, religio, et cetera, it is discrimination, and serves to alienate them from the rest of society.
Originally posted by adrenaline
Malaysia is my home country so I will comment on that. These elitist practices are just that, to entrench and empower the ruling ethnic and religious party. Not an effort to redress and correct past wrongs. Their policies are not affirmative action in the sense that I have described above.
As I understand it, these racially biased laws were implemented under the guise/logic of affirmative action; i.e. "The Malays are worse off so lets give them some economic and educational assistance." This happened after Independence when the various political parties were still trying to hold their fragile coalition together and the government conveniently forgot to repeal those laws.
Of course, if you're a Malaysian in Malaysia and you talk about this, you will be jailed without trial and without charge, indefinitely, under the Internal Security Act. Which empowers the government to do just that.
Affirmative action will not be necessary if the government legislates law which makes selection for academia, business positions, etc. entirely dependent on industry-agreed, objective tests. Commercial/business aptitude tests for business positions, IQ/A-Level/etc. tests for academia etc. Interviews are nice, but they are, unfortunately, subjective. Sports accomplishments are also nice, but how do you compare a silver triathelete with a bronze heptathelete? So that goes out too.
For example, if the test results of all the applicants for a university intake were published (names witheld and replaced with applicant numbers), it will be easy to spot any discrepancies. "Why was applicant #4715 admitted when they had a total average score of 8.9 and I had a total average score of 9.1?" Questions like these are a better force for racial equality than arbitrary and inverse-racist affirmative action laws.
A meritocratic system is ideal but just because it seems remote to achieve, does not mean we should settle for second-rate solutions like AA. We should try to achieve it anyway; if we fall short at least we are still closer than we were before.
Bottom line: If the glove fits, wear it.
Originally posted by wasteofo2
You said you thought black people were the most racist and expect to be treated specially, yet you're saying they're the same as everyone else as well?
They are the same to me, i have many black friends that i hang out with, but i have also seen so many acts of rasicm from black guys, saying stuff or beating up white, asian, indian people. I never see white gangs of people going and picking on like one black guy just because of the color of his skin. Its really stupid and pointless to me.
adrenaline
Dec12-03, 12:39 PM
Originally posted by Tyro
As I understand it, these racially biased laws were implemented under the guise/logic of affirmative action; i.e. "The Malays are worse off so lets give them some economic and educational assistance." This happened after Independence when the various political parties were still trying to hold their fragile coalition together and the government conveniently forgot to repeal those laws.
Of course, if you're a Malaysian in Malaysia and you talk about this, you will be jailed without trial and without charge, indefinitely, under the Internal Security Act. Which empowers the government to do just that.
Affirmative action will not be necessary if the government legislates law which makes selection for academia, business positions, etc. entirely dependent on industry-agreed, objective tests. Commercial/business aptitude tests for business positions, IQ/A-Level/etc. tests for academia etc. Interviews are nice, but they are, unfortunately, subjective. Sports accomplishments are also nice, but how do you compare a silver triathelete with a bronze heptathelete? So that goes out too.
For example, if the test results of all the applicants for a university intake were published (names witheld and replaced with applicant numbers), it will be easy to spot any discrepancies. "Why was applicant #4715 admitted when they had a total average score of 8.9 and I had a total average score of 9.1?" Questions like these are a better force for racial equality than arbitrary and inverse-racist affirmative action laws.
A meritocratic system is ideal but just because it seems remote to achieve, does not mean we should settle for second-rate solutions like AA. We should try to achieve it anyway; if we fall short at least we are still closer than we were before.
Bottom line: If the glove fits, wear it.
Once again, it is hard to feel pity and call it affirmative action when the laws benefit the majority of the population. The chinese who comprise about 30% of the country's population and own 70% of the businesses was a big thorn in their side. This was an ingenious manuver under the label of "affirmative action" to wrest the economic power away from the minority holding the vast majority of economic power. The chinese never "enslaved" the malays in any extent that we enslaved the blacks nor did the chinese enforce segregation laws that placed a physical barrier of access to social programs and education.
Why the conservative media uses Malaysia as a model of "affirmative action" is a joke.
As I stated before, I hate affirmative action, but considering that legalized equality is less than a generation old, it may not be time to end it. To assume that racism is a thing of the past is naive and that we can get back to the business of a pure merit based system is not feasible right now...later yes, but not now. Considering some studies that show how resumes of equal qualifications are rejected for interviews if a person has a black sounding name vs. a white sounding name, a qualified black person still is very handicapped in this society! I don't have that particular study but here is a link to one that cites a similar one. http://academic.udayton.edu/race/04needs/s98wood.htm#Impact
Originally posted by gimpy
They are the same to me, i have many black friends that i hang out with, but i have also seen so many acts of rasicm from black guys, saying stuff or beating up white, asian, indian people. I never see white gangs of people going and picking on like one black guy just because of the color of his skin. Its really stupid and pointless to me. Well...it depends on where you live. Where I live, people will throw beer bottles at black and Mexican people walking down the road, or beat up someone if they walk into the wrong bar at the wrong time.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Prestigious school admissions still look at alumni standing and donations of the parents, so unless this is eliminated, a more inferior caucasion will be equally admitted under the umbrella of their parents donations and alumni status just as the minority admitted under the umbrella of affirmative action.
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Piffle. In the USA, minority students get bonus points on their SAT scores just for being in minorities.
No, not piffle. Affirmative action accounts for less than 300 admissions per year to prestigious institutions. Legacies account for more than 5,000. That is about 4900 admissions reserved for white students only, because those institutions discriminated back when the applicants parents could have attended, precluding their abiity to become legacies. Considering legacies and AA together, prstigious institutions still have a net bias in favor of white students.
If you want to increase your chance to enter a prestigious university, work to eliminate legacy admission. Affirmative action is insignificant.
Njorl
After reading the posts on this thread, I can’t help but notice the clear stigmas placed on the black race in general. If you read this thread you may notice that there is a greater stigma against blacks then most other races. One post even showed a hierarchy of intelligence that placed blacks at the bottom of the list (note: the existence of the idea is quite telling of societies’ beliefs).
And then there are a few quotes from the thread that seem subtle and non-harmful yet very revealing in my mind. You only need to read between the lines. To be honest I am disgusted at the subtle negativities placed against blacks. I’m sure some of these words are often unnoticed in everyday life but it really isn’t difficult to spot. Although many of us claim not to be racist, some, if not all of us (white, asian or black and myself included) still attaches a greater stigma against blacks than any other race in the world.
In my opinion this stigma has been with us since birth. It doesn’t matter whether you are raised in a white home, asian home or black home; the stigma has been planted and it grows. Society in general nurtures it and the media that surrounds us reinforces its existence. It’s hard to see sometimes but it is there and sometimes it will surprise when we least expect it.
Here are some questions to ask oneself:
How do you feel when you walk down a barren street at night and see a black man walking towards you? How about a Hispanic or Chinese or Caucasian? What goes through your mind?
Why do you think a large proportion of poverty exists among the black community?
If you are white or asian, how will your parents react if you chose a person of the black race as your mate or spouse? How will your parents feel about a white/ asian combination?
Some of you may answer “no big deal” to the questions above, but for the majority of us something negative will come to mind.
The stigmas that exist are the reasons I believe affirmative action is necessary. I do not believe it is perfect nor do I believe it should stay in existence forever. But while there are STRONG forms of stigmas against minorities a governmental intervention must be set in place to create equality.
I do believe that individual achievements are the best forms of measurement for hiring, but when stigmas exists that labels a group of minorities as less intelligent, less trustworthy, less hardworking, etc. then some leveling of the field is necessary, for overcoming the handicaps attributed to us by others is nearly impossible to achieve.
Originally posted by Raven
One post even showed a hierarchy of intelligence that placed blacks at the bottom of the list (note: the existence of the idea is quite telling of societies’ beliefs).
I am only relaying what I read online a while ago. Please do not shoot the messenger. I note that you did not mention me explicitly, and thank you for that. However, I am just pointing that out before someone accuses me of something unpleasant.
From my prose, you can quite clearly see I do not see eye to eye with the connotations of those reports. The reason for that is because I feel that IQ is the complex product of many factors, social background included. The reports may state the facts, and possibly even truthfully, from unbiased authors, but they fail to take into account why the racial disparity exists. Until this is acknowledged, it is as pointless as saying a BMW Z3 outspeeds a SUV...Of course it does, the disparity runs deeper than the speed results alone.
Originally posted by Tyro:
As for the occasional reports you see floating around saying that the racial IQs are, in decreasing order: White, Hispanic then Black...hence the need for affirmative action...let me point out that affirmative action is really just inverse racism. "Lets fix racism by being racist." Duh...again. If you can't make the grades then tough luck...its nothing personal about your race. All affirmative action really says at a fundamental level is "Race counts". The message we are trying to get across with anti-racism laws is that "Race does NOT count".
adrenaline
Dec12-03, 03:47 PM
Raven is spot on. It is this unconscious racism that is still so much of an impediment for the minorities, much more so for the black male than any other minority group. It is much easier to rally against the obvious Jim Crow laws and lynchings but when the black male rallys against this undercurrent of subliminal racism, he is seen as an angry young man full of angst and reverse racism when we really have no idea the full extent of what he faces on a daily basis.
Originally posted by Zero
Well...it depends on where you live. Where I live, people will throw beer bottles at black and Mexican people walking down the road, or beat up someone if they walk into the wrong bar at the wrong time.
I guess your right. It depends on where you live.
Originally posted by Tyro
I am only relaying what I read online a while ago. Please do not shoot the messenger. I note that you did not mention me explicitly, and thank you for that. However, I am just pointing that out before someone accuses me of something unpleasant.
Tyro I could tell from the context of your entry that it was a quote and not your words or your point of view. I certainly did not mean to implicate anything against you. I just felt that the idea that such a thought existed found anywhere in society was quite scary and it needed to be reiterated.
Thank you for bringing that example to this thread.
jimmy p
Dec12-03, 06:50 PM
Over here in England it is pretty bad. Take this example from a few days ago.
Basically, a white prison officer was fired from his job because he made a joke about Osama bin Laden and there were Asians in the room next door who could have heard.
To make it worse, a columnist in a newspaper defended the prison officer because he wasnt offending the Muslim race but a serial killer terrorist. Subsequently he got a lot of hatemail calling him a rascist, a BNP (British National Party...extreme right wing political group) member and some other insults. However none of the hate mail came from people called Ali of Shah, they were from people called Smith or Davis. Weirdo no?
Also all these foreign religions are allowed to build mosques and sinagogues or whatever they want around our country but any church built in their country would be destroyed within a week or so.
ALSO in england, we have Radio Asia and all these things like that (there used to be a TV programme called Black Britain) but if we were to have i dunno, Radio White Person, it would be called rascist and prosecuted. I have a lot of issues about racism. Especially the fact that especially where i live, the white population is becoming a minority because of asylum seekers and illegal immigrants.
Also...with equal rights in the workplace, when they employ people, there should be no 'equal rights' section asking their race or sex or whatever, that way it IS equal instead of choosing a coloured person because they need to fill the quota.
I live in new mexico and at school it like GTA (grand thieft auto) lots of tagging gang wars they try to rank you in most of the gangsters are seprated by minorty or family gangs they usualy beat up the new kids for bieng different but who get picked on the most are the white kids (by the way im hispanic indian) what really bothers me the horrasment they get [:(] it makes me pissed but as long as people differ in even the slighest ways there will be racial slurs/ remarks and the school tries to do somthing but about 90% of the kids are gangsters im the class presdent and i try to do lots but its seems that there is so little i can do
Originally posted by Zeke
I live in new mexico and at school it like GTA (grand thieft auto) lots of tagging gang wars they try to rank you in most of the gangsters are seprated by minorty or family gangs they usualy beat up the new kids for bieng different but who get picked on the most are the white kids (by the way im hispanic indian) what really bothers me the horrasment they get [:(] it makes me pissed but as long as people differ in even the slighest ways there will be racial slurs/ remarks and the school tries to do somthing but about 90% of the kids are gangsters im the class presdent and i try to do lots but its seems that there is so little i can do
Don't worry about those kids who are gangsters. When you get out of school and head to college or university they wont get in and wont bother anyone anymore. They are going know where in life.
Originally posted by Raven
Why do you think a large proportion of poverty exists among the black community?
Mostly due to laziness. There are a LOT of asian immigrants who seem to do well for themselves yet black families that have lived here for generations can't seem to get out of a rut. Why is that? The black community seems to have this weird idea that if you have a steady job, you're either a sell out or you're workin for the man or some crap like that. Asians tend to think that hard work will get you somewhere in life; they are right.
I have an asian friend whos parents came from vietnam when communism took over. Since they've been here, they've made a very nice lifestyle for themselves. My friend's mother went through a bunch of training to get some certification with food or something like that and now she manages a restaraunt. His dad does something like mix paint colors at a printing company. My friend was an honor student all through highschool. For all of highschool, he's never been unemployed for more than 3 weeks straight. Now, he's in lawschool and doing quite well.
If you really want to get out of the rut, you can. My friend's parents came here with no money and now they live like kings in a nice house, 2 cars, a neat karaoke setup downstairs, big screen TV, good jobs and a son who's in law school.
ALSO in england, we have Radio Asia and all these things like that (there used to be a TV programme called Black Britain) but if we were to have i dunno, Radio White Person, it would be called rascist and prosecuted.
Consider this. We have a BNP, a party for far right pseudo-nazis. Legally speaking, we cannot prosecute them. However, we cannot have a non-BN party, even though theoretically it would be morally far superior. Why? Because there is a huge danger in forming groups to bar out minority, as opposed to groups that support their continued existence. The big word is multicultural.
Also...with equal rights in the workplace, when they employ people, there should be no 'equal rights' section asking their race or sex or whatever, that way it IS equal instead of choosing a coloured person because they need to fill the quota.
In most cases, they are legally required not to discriminate on that basis. In the cases of police recruitment etc, it is neccessary to use such quotas, as it is impossible for the police to do their work if they do not adequately represent the population they are policing.
Also all these foreign religions are allowed to build mosques and sinagogues or whatever they want around our country but any church built in their country would be destroyed within a week or so.
And indeed, many of those people are exiles seeking precisely this form of religious freedom. Britain is not a theocracy, and we do not need comparision with countries that are.
Especially the fact that especially where i live, the white population is becoming a minority because of asylum seekers and illegal immigrants.
So what? Economically speaking, an influx of immigrants to prop up the UK finances is far preferable to all of OUR businesses going abroad to seek competitive employee markets, which is the alternative.
Mostly due to laziness.
You got any figures for that?
adrenaline
Dec14-03, 08:47 AM
Originally posted by ShawnD
Mostly due to laziness. There are a LOT of asian immigrants who seem to do well for themselves yet black families that have lived here for generations can't seem to get out of a rut. Why is that? The black community seems to have this weird idea that if you have a steady job, you're either a sell out or you're workin for the man or some crap like that. Asians tend to think that hard work will get you somewhere in life; they are right.
I have an asian friend whos parents came from vietnam when communism took over. Since they've been here, they've made a very nice lifestyle for themselves. My friend's mother went through a bunch of training to get some certification with food or something like that and now she manages a restaraunt. His dad does something like mix paint colors at a printing company. My friend was an honor student all through highschool. For all of highschool, he's never been unemployed for more than 3 weeks straight. Now, he's in lawschool and doing quite well.
If you really want to get out of the rut, you can. My friend's parents came here with no money and now they live like kings in a nice house, 2 cars, a neat karaoke setup downstairs, big screen TV, good jobs and a son who's in law school.
This is probably the most steoreotypical racist thread I've read. I'm half Asian and grew up in the Far East so I will bash myself.
I think some of the generalizations about blacks being lazy include the erroneous presumption that they comprise the largest recepients of welfare and public assistance. The main reciepients are still white, and true, whites are the majority, so by virtue of sheer numbers will constitute the majority but most people still think the blacks constitute the majority of welfare recepients. The sad truth is,it is single mothers wether black, white, hispanic or asian who consititute the majority of welfare recepients. This is not a laziness issue as much as a social problem.
As for Asians, you would be surprised how many suck up the welfare systems in the form of the elderly over the age of 65 who have not contributed to the system prior to immigrating over here.
Welfare in the Form of Cash Payments
The table below presents the percentages of welfare use by immigrants
over the age of 65, both overall and from some of the larger
immigrant groups, in 1990.
group % on welfare
all immigrants 45%
Chinese 55%
Filipino 39%
Iranian 26%
Korean 50%
Mexican 21%
Soviet Union 66%
Vietnamese 74%
all native-born 9%
As can be seen, 45% of elderly immigrants were on welfare.
For the elderly immigrant Chinese (I am using the word Chinese in
terms of ancestry, and thus including people from not only China but
also Taiwan and Hong Kong), the group on which I am focussing here,
the figure was 55%. The Chinese figure was the highest among all
major nonrefugee immigrant groups.
If you want to know who are the least "lazy" in terms of recieving public handouts in our society, then the winner goes to the Mexicans and Middle easterners, not the Asians.
More where that came from called Welfare Facts http://www.arthurhu.com/index/awelfare.htm
Let's not forget, it's attitudes like these that affect hiring practices and promotions that negatively affect blacks and not Asians or whites. As for generations of opportunities being available to the black people here in this country, once again, that's bull****, only one and a half generation has experienced legal racial equality. There were no Jim Crow Laws against the Asians that in any way rivalled the ones against the blacks.
selfAdjoint
Dec14-03, 11:35 AM
Wonderful adrenaline! Facts are what will kill racism, eventually. Even the Bell Curve does not say blacks are stupid. It says about equal numbers of whites and blacks are slow enough that they need help, and this is a growing social problem.
By the way, if I may digress slightly to the issue of sexism, I read a comment in a magazine by someone in a arcturial/statistics company that the IQ curve for men tends to be broader, while for women it tends to have a smaller standard deviation. So you get less morons for women but more geniuses for men. Can anyone corroborate that?
Edit: This was from the feedback section of New Scientist a while back.
Again, I'll say that most of the things that are associated with race are really class issues, combined with residual racism against minorities. The sad part is that the poor white folks who are so actively racist have more in common with poor blacks and Hispanics than with rich white folks. In fact, poor whites often vote against their own interests, in order to make sure that minorities aren't helped either.
Originally posted by adrenaline
Let's not forget, it's attitudes like these that affect hiring practices and promotions that negatively affect blacks and not Asians or whites.
Blacks and Asians used to be in the same boat when it came to racism.
In the early 1900s, racism against Asians was just as bad as it was against blacks. They would be picked on in the same way, denied service, would not be hired and so forth. Look at them now, Asians are not picked on nearly as much, and they are actually seen as being smart and successful people. They started in the same spot blacks did but they've managed to get a reputation for hard work and intelligence; how strange.
Semper000
Dec14-03, 06:28 PM
mistake will repost
Originally posted by ShawnD
Blacks and Asians used to be in the same boat when it came to racism.
In the early 1900s, racism against Asians was just as bad as it was against blacks. They would be picked on in the same way, denied service, would not be hired and so forth. Look at them now, Asians are not picked on nearly as much, and they are actually seen as being smart and successful people. They started in the same spot blacks did but they've managed to get a reputation for hard work and intelligence; how strange. How strange? What is strange is I guess you think you are being subtle with your racism.
My original RHETORICAL question? "Why do you think a large proportion of poverty exists within the black community?"
Answer:
Originally posted by ShawnD
Mostly due to laziness.
I know there was more to your answer Shawn, but this first sentence pretty much sums up my point which you obviously missed.
The question I posted was meant solely to point out that negative stigmas exist and can be seen in the way society answers such questions. I really didn't expect anyone to give their answers, and boy, I truly didn't expect yours. You fell for the bait that I didn't even expect would be taken.
Shawn, the answer you have given is an answer that most of us have probably heard in the past either from relatives, friends, or the media in general. Handed down from generation to generation, the existance of this misinformation is very difficult to eliminate. Fortunately, a good proportion of today's society can see that your answer (laziness) is simply untrue. There are other factors at play (negative stigmas) that contribute to the problem. adrenaline addresses some of these in her post.
Shawn, you defended your answer by giving examples of asians (another minority) who have become successful through hard work. You must know that there are also examples of blacks, latinos, and other races that have also become successful through their hard work which should also be credited. Despite the equality of ones abilities and ones aspirations to succeed, these achievements were not easy to attain when society attributes handicaps to one's race.
You must also know that blacks have suffered a greater amount of negative stigmas attached to their race than any other in the world. This is especially true in the U.S. For a long period in recent history there are a lot of examples in which blacks are falsely shown as inferior. This is a huge burden to overcome even in today's society. When the majority puts you down, I assure you, you will likely be down most of your life and have to struggle harder than most others to rise up to attain one's goals.
Answers like yours only help to prove my point.
Something about immigrants from Asia: it takes alot of work to get across the Pacific Ocean, and the process is a form of evolution-style selection. Only the most determined people are going to make such a trip, therefore those individuals are probably more likely to suceed. That doesn't mean that Asians are harder workers, it means that people willing to go through the struggle of getting here are more likely to succeed wherever they are.
On the other hand, if you go to Asia, I'm sure you'll find that the proportion of 'lazy' people is no different than among any other population worldwide.
Great thinkin there zero, I never thought of that.
adrenaline
Dec15-03, 04:57 AM
Originally posted by Zero
Something about immigrants from Asia: it takes alot of work to get across the Pacific Ocean, ...........On the other hand, if you go to Asia, I'm sure you'll find that the proportion of 'lazy' people is no different than among any other population worldwide.
Yes, I agree, that is a great point Zero.
Also, the key word is the Asians made a choice to come here, the blacks didn't.
What about the Asians that are already here though? A lot of the kids making fantastic grades were born here.
Originally posted by ShawnD
What about the Asians that are already here though? A lot of the kids making fantastic grades were born here. Do you think their parents will accept anything less? Asian kids don't magically get better grades because of genetics. Do you think a person is going to sell all their stuff, move to America and start over, build a sucessful business, and then let their kids slack off?
Carlos Hernandez
Dec17-03, 03:56 AM
An interesting perspective, but not one I completely agree with:
What is Racism?
Everyone talks about "racism" but no one ever defines it.
AR's assistant editor has given it a try.
by Thomas Jackson
There is surely no nation in the world that holds "racism" in greater horror than does the United States. Compared to other kinds of offenses, it is thought to be somehow more reprehensible. The press and public have become so used to tales of murder, rape, robbery, and arson, that any but the most spectacular crimes are shrugged off as part of the inevitable texture of American life. "Racism" is never shrugged off.
For example, when a white Georgetown Law School student reports that black students are less well qualified than white students, it sets off a booming, national controversy about "racism." If the student had merely murdered someone he would have attracted far less attention and criticism.
Complete text at http://www.commonsenseclub.com/racism.html
Carlos Hernandez
Originally posted by Carlos Hernandez
An interesting perspective, but not one I completely agree with:
What is Racism?
Everyone talks about "racism" but no one ever defines it.
AR's assistant editor has given it a try.
I'd say he has done a good job of demonstrating the subtler points of racism.
Njorl
On the other hand, if you go to Asia, I'm sure you'll find that the proportion of 'lazy' people is no different than among any other population worldwide.
I understand your point but it depends on where you are talking about.
India, for example, is extremely populated. Because its population, there is a limited number of jobs. One can't afford to be lazy because there are people all around working hard to get that job YOU want. The only way you have a chance? Work just as hard (if not harder). Do you see what I'm getting at?
India (in particular Kerala) has to be one of the most ruthless and cut-throat of all places when it comes to education. It's highly competitive and there is no room for mistakes if you want to get ahead.
But then again, India is not classified as "Asia" according to the SAT's. I had to put my race as "other"
Portlandmann
Dec17-03, 03:38 PM
Mikail Gorbachev once said, "what makes America great is that you all speak the same language". Think about that for a while and it's implications. Some say English is the language of science. What unerves me is we have about 18 million hispanics all falling over themselves to escape the poverty of there homeland for the last 20-30 years. They get here and pull the "baby trick",to quote and INS agent. Oregon spent in one year 118 million dollars in programs to teach hispanics in spanish. They have since done away with that. What comes around goes around. We can thank the rich entrepenuers who helped bring them up to make hardware and software for the computer industry, etc. etc. and now us poor people are picking up the tab.
Where are the greedy men who helped bring these people up here by supplying them jobs? I wish I knew of just one of them. And I do have some background. I was married to a mexican lady for 10 years. She was already naturalized but I learned all the dirty little tricks her people play.
"Levity of youth should be likened unto the seeds of a gourd which rattle around having yet to find fertile ground in which to grow"- one of the church guys talking to a young gun slinger in a John Wayne movie just before the kid shot him.
Carlos Hernandez
Dec18-03, 03:29 PM
Computer terminology has been deemed "racist":
'Master' and 'slave' computer labels unacceptable, officials say
Wednesday, November 26, 2003 Posted: 3:24 PM EST (2024 GMT)
LOS ANGELES, California (Reuters) -- Los Angeles officials have asked that manufacturers, suppliers and contractors stop using the terms "master" and "slave" on computer equipment, saying such terms are unacceptable and offensive.
The request -- which has some suppliers furious and others busy re-labeling components -- came after an unidentified worker spotted a videotape machine carrying devices labeled "master" and "slave" and filed a discrimination complaint with the county's Office of Affirmative Action Compliance.
Complete text at http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/ptech/11/26/master.term.reut/index.html
Carlos Hernandez
Dec18-03, 03:33 PM
More on racism:
Turnpike Billboard Advertises White Supremacist Organization
POSTED: 5:49 p.m. EST December 8, 2003
LAKE COUNTY, Fla. -- A billboard, pushing people to a white supremacist website, is raising some eyebrows. The giant advertisement sits along the Turnpike on the Lake-Sumter County line.
While we have chosen not to show and photos of the billboard or disclose the web site, we can tell you that most people will be unpleasantly surprised by the product advertised.
Complete article at http://www.wftv.com/news/2691401/detail.html
Portlandmann
Dec19-03, 04:37 AM
I learned all about racism from minorities. The black people of LA are being forced out once again not by whites but by people who have little to give and at least got paid for thier hard labor in the past. Unlike the black people who were not only born here but worked as slaves.
Carlos Hernandez
Dec20-03, 06:05 AM
Is this Black racism: http://www.naawp.com/crime_stats.htm
Nope. It's a bunch of bull$hit statistics displayed without any real consideration or context. If such stuff is still being perpetuated in the public consciousness, then that is good reason for positive discrimination to take place.
Monique
Dec20-03, 06:37 PM
Originally posted by Carlos Hernandez
Is this Black racism: http://www.naawp.com/crime_stats.htm Maybe more blacks get arrested and convicted since those are the first suspects according to current stereotyping?? Maybe whites get off more easily since a CEO can't possibly do a bad things?
Hypothetically speaking..
alias25
Dec22-03, 11:56 AM
im asian (if u classify bangladesh as part of asia)
my dads mixed race his mum is english and dad bengali
i don't have contact with my grandma she came over once mabey twice when i was about 12. i don't think my parents are stopping me from contacting her because she's white i think it's cause often she'd phone up drunk an ask for my dad usually in the evening when he's at work and when my mum answears and says he's not home, she'd start yelling at her saying that she keeping him away from her.
i don care what colour skin any one is as long as their friendly
i'd make friends with any one,blacks,whites,pinks,reds,blues... etc
im having an arranged marraige and if i liked some guy who was black or white my parents would probly despise me.
did u hear about what happened to this asian muslim girl that went out with a white christian guy, her dad killed her.
scary.
Originally posted by Carlos Hernandez
Is this Black racism: http://www.naawp.com/crime_stats.htm Wow, nice racist website there, buddy.
Carlos Hernandez
Dec22-03, 03:03 PM
Originally posted by Zero
Wow, nice racist website there, buddy.
Any more racist than http://www.naacp.org/ ? or http://www.adl.org/ So only sites that say discrimination against Whites is bad should be deemed "racist" but sites that fight for the rights of other races should be deemed "proper"? Well, then, since I am Mexican, then the site of http://www.aztlan.net/ should be "proper" since they fight for the rights of Mexican-American? Just curious to know what you think. You are of course entitled to your own opinions. I like comparing the opinions of different people for psychological reasons.
Carlos Hernandez
Originally posted by Carlos Hernandez
Any more racist than http://www.naacp.org/ ? or http://www.adl.org/
Yes, actually, much more racist. It is a site specifically designed to incite hatred toward blacks among whites. I did not see anything that base on the naacp or adl sites.
So only sites that say discrimination against Whites is bad should be deemed "racist" but sites that fight for the rights of other races should be deemed "proper"?
No, the naawp site is racist for promoting racial hatred, not for denouncing discrimination against whites.
Well, then, since I am Mexican, then the site of http://www.aztlan.net/ should be "proper" since they fight for the rights of Mexican-American?
I couldn't say. It is mostly in Spanish, and I don't read it well. I have heard some nasty things about Aztlan, but I don't know if they were true or racist propaganda. Since I can't judge reasonably, I won't judge at all.
Just curious to know what you think. You are of course entitled to your own opinions. I like comparing the opinions of different people for psychological reasons.
Ah. You have an interest in what sane people think so you can compare it to your own viewpoint. Commendable.
Carlos Hernandez
Njorl
Carlos Hernandez
Dec22-03, 03:37 PM
Is this Black racism: http://www.spectator.co.uk/article.php3?table=old%A7ion=current§ion=current&issue=2003-11-22&id=3760
Carlos Hernandez
I'm sure you can find many instances of racism against white people. I imagine that there are racist groups of all kinds against all kinds. But the fact that Louis Farrakhan, for instance, is racist against white people does not make naawp non-racist.
Njorl
Carlos Hernandez
Dec22-03, 04:17 PM
Originally posted by Njorl
I'm sure you can find many instances of racism against white people. I imagine that there are racist groups of all kinds against all kinds. But the fact that Louis Farrakhan, for instance, is racist against white people does not make naawp non-racist.
Njorl
So you agree that all races are racist, not just Whites.
Carlos Hernandez
Carlos Hernandez
Dec22-03, 04:24 PM
Ah. You have an interest in what sane people think so you can compare it to your own viewpoint. Commendable.
Njorl
Argumentum ad hominem. Please learn the rules of debating at http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/logic.html
Carlos Hernandez
Carlos Hernandez
Dec22-03, 04:29 PM
Originally posted by Njorl
Yes, actually, much more racist. It is a site specifically designed to incite hatred toward blacks among whites. I did not see anything that base on the naacp or adl sites.
No, the naawp site is racist for promoting racial hatred, not for denouncing discrimination against whites.
Naacp says White people are hateful people who dislike Blacks, the ADL says White people are hateful people who dislike Jews. The Naawp says Blacks are hateful people who dislike Whites. So, what is the difference?
I couldn't say. It is mostly in Spanish, and I don't read it well..
It's all in English.
Carlos Hernandez
Originally posted by Carlos Hernandez
So you agree that all races are racist, not just Whites.
Carlos Hernandez
Being identified as a "racist" does not really have anything to do with one's own race (of course it is a factor but not a necessity). It is in the way that an individual perceives a race that matters.
In my opinion, if an individual perceives another race (even that of their own for this matter) as inferior to other races than that individual is a racist.
This may be a bold definition, but I am not one to forgive even the least subtlety of inferiority beliefs against others when it comes to racism. As I have mentioned before, I do not believe I am innocent of racist thoughts regardless of their subtleties, but I do strive to not only suppress these thoughts but eliminate them altogether. It is more important to understand the strenghts than weaknesses of our differences. It is only then that we will realize that everyone is similar in more ways than we expect, and that "race" in itself is just a term to clasify, categorize and segragate all humans.
If you like to think of it more scientifically, then maybe one should consider this fact. According to DNA structures, every human being is less then a tenth of a percent different from any other human on earth. In other words we are all 99.9% the same in structure regardless of sex or race. It is only in that tenth of a percent that we are different.
Carlos Hernandez
Dec22-03, 09:58 PM
Originally posted by Raven
If you like to think of it more scientifically, then maybe one should consider this fact. According to DNA structures, every human being is less then a tenth of a percent different from any other human on earth. In other words we are all 99.9% the same in structure regardless of sex or race. It is only in that tenth of a percent that we are different.
From http://home.comcast.net/~neoeugenics/tab.htm
Diamond offered a more colorful version of an argument advanced in 1972 by Richard Lewontin, a Harvard University geneticist. Lewontin had become convinced that virtually all meaningful differences between races are either random or culturally determined. Based on his review of the available data, he concluded that only a tiny fraction of the differences between individuals could be considered "racial." In other words, Lewontin maintained that the differences that separate "races" are little more than what distinguishes two random fans at a World Cup match--statistically nothing, genetically speaking. The article, published in the prestigious journal Evolutionary Biology, amounted to a frontal attack on the concept of race.
For sure genetic differences between any two individuals are extremely small in percentage terms. Coming from a geneticist, rather than a sociologist or anthropologist, Lewontin's article had enormous influence, although not everyone was convinced. Lewontin's finding that on average humans share 99.8 percent of genetic material and that any two individuals are apt to share considerably more than 90 percent of this shared genetic library is on target. Interpreting that data is another issue, however. Lewontin's analysis suffers both scientifically and politically.
Although the politics of a scientist is not necessarily an issue in evaluating their work, in Lewontin's case it is crucial. According to his own account, his sensibilities were catalyzed by the civil rights movement of the 1960s. He made it very clear that his science was in part a mission to reaffirm our common humanity. To geneticists and biologists with less of an avowed agenda, Lewontin appeared to leaven his conclusion with his personal ideology.
From a scientific perspective, Lewontin and those that have relied on his work have reached beyond the data to some tenuous conclusions. In fact the percentage of differences is a far less important issue than which genes are different. Even minute differences in DNA can have profound effects on how an animal or human looks and acts while huge apparent variations between species may be almost insignificant in genetic terms. Consider the cichlid fish, which can be found in Africa's Lake Nyas. The cichlid, which has differentiated from one species to hundreds over a mere 11,500 years, "differ among themselves as much as do tigers and cows," Jared Diamond has noted. "Some graze on algae, others catch other fish, and still others variously crush snails, feed on plankton, catch insects, nibble the scales off other fish, or specialize in grabbing fish embryos from brooding mother fish." The kicker, these variations are the result of infinitesimal genetic differences--about 0.4 percent of their DNA studied.
In humans too, it is not the percentage of genes that is most critical, but whether and how the genes impact our physiology or behavior. Diamond mused that if an alien were to arrive on our planet and analyze our DNA, humans would appear, from a genetic perspective, as a third race of chimpanzees. Although it is believed they took a different evolutionary path from humans only five million years ago, chimps share fully 98.4 percent of our DNA. Just 50 out of 100,000 genes that humans and chimps are thought to possess--or a minuscule 0.3 percent--may account for all of the cognitive differences between man and ape. For that matter, dogs share about 95 percent of our genome; even the tiny roundworm, barely visible to the naked eye, share about 74 percent of its genes with humans.
Most mammalian genes, as much as 70 percent, are "junk" that have accumulated over the course of evolution with absolutely no remaining function; whether they are similar or different is meaningless. But the key 1.4 percent of regulatory genes can and do have a huge impact on all aspects of our humanity. In other words, small genetic differences do not automatically translate into trivial bodily or behavioral variations. The critical factor is not which genes are passed along but how they are patterned and what traits they influence.
Lewontin did collate genetic variability from known genetic markers and find that most of it lay within and not between human populations. Numerous scientists since have generalized those findings to the entire human genome, yet no such study has been done. Now it is believed that such an inference is dicey at best. The trouble with genetic markers is that they display "junk" variability that sends a signal that variability within populations exceeds variability between populations. However, the "junk" DNA that has not been weeded out by natural selection accounts for a larger proportion of within-population variability. Genetic makers may therefore be sending an exaggerated and maybe false signal. In contrast, the harder-to-study regulatory genes (that circumscribe our physical and athletic abilities) signal that between-group variability is far larger than has been believed. In other words, human populations are genetically more different than Lewontin and others who have relied on his work realize.
That was quite a long post.
However, I do not think it's lenght is necessary to point out the difference that a tenth of a percent makes in our DNA structure. One only needs to take a look at another human being to appreciate the difference and what a wonderful and beautiful difference it is.
My point, however, is to concentrate on the huge amount of similarities we all have. For some reason this 99.9% similarity in our DNA structure seems undervalued, and the 0.1% difference explains all the differences we cannot seem to prove.
Genetic science may complete the human genome and learn all its aspects within our lifetime, but social science will continue to evade our true understanding of human behavior. There are reasons for why people (in general) act in different ways, and I do not believe the answers are within the human genome alone. Social structure, culture, religious beliefs, the media and governmental laws all have strong factors on how individuals act and how individuals react to each other. I truly believe that it is in the social sciences that the answers to the roots of racism exist. In my opinion genetic science only shows how much alike all human beings are, yet some racists might hold onto the minute difference the genome sciences shows as though it were a tool to prove some form of inferiority or superiority among the races.
When will we learn that "difference" does not equate to "inferiority" or "superiority"?
Originally posted by Carlos Hernandez
So you agree that all races are racist, not just Whites.
Carlos Hernandez
Not at all. I agree that there are racists among all races. There is a big difference.
Njorl
Originally posted by Carlos Hernandez
It's all in English.
Carlos Hernandez
This was the first thing I read on the site.
México en Síntesis
Es un servicio para las comunidades de mexicanos en el extranjero
EDITOR: Andrés Alejandres H. CONSEJO EDITORIAL: Bernardo Méndez Lugo, Araceli Martínez Ortega, Raúl Ross Pineda, Gerardo Albino González, Florencio I. Zaragoza, Carlos Villanueva, Marco A. Gil II, Juan Caceres
================================================== =================
Feliz Navidad les desea México en Síntesis
www.mexicanosenelexterior.com
México, D. F., a 22 de diciembre 03
INTERNACIONAL
EMITE EU OTRA ALERTA TERRORISTA Washington . El gobierno estadounidense volvió a elevar ayer el nivel de alerta a "naranja", paso previo al nivel máximo, el "rojo", ante la creciente oleada de amenazas de los últimos días, anunció el secretario de Seguridad Nacional, Tom Ridge. "La información que tenemos indica que extremistas en el extranjero están anticipando ataques inminentes que, según ellos, serán equiparables o mayores a los que ocurrieron en Nueva York, el Pentágono y en los campos de Pennsylvania hace dos años", señaló el funcionario al anunciar la medida. El encargado de la seguridad interior estadounidense precisó que fuentes creíbles mencionaron la posibilidad de que se produzcan ataques alrededor de los días feriados de fin de año. (http://www.eluniversal.com.mx/pls/impreso/noticia.html?id_nota=30053&tabla=internacional).
OPERATIVO CONTRA LA RESISTENCIA EN IRAK; MUERE UNA MUJER DE 60 AÑOS Tikrit, 21 de diciembre. Dos iraquíes, entre ellos una mujer de 60 años, murieron, y un hombre resultó herido el sábado pasado durante enfrentamientos en el noreste de Bagdad y en la frontera con Siria entre fuerzas estadunidenses y miembros de la resistencia, mientras varios oleoductos en Tikrit fueron incendiados en actos de sabotaje, al tiempo que el estado mayor de Estados Unidos informó que desde la captura de Saddam Hussein han sido arrestadas más de 200 personas, entre ellas algunos líderes guerrilleros. El sábado, durante un enfrentamiento entre 25 hombres armados y soldados estadunidenses al noreste de Bagdad, un iraquí murió y uno más resultó herido, informó este domingo una portavoz estadunidense, quien agregó que 36 personas fueron detenidas. (http://www.jornada.unam.mx/029n1mun.php?origen=mundo.php&fly=1).
Damn, my English isn't as good as I thought it was.
Njorl
Originally posted by Carlos Hernandez
Argumentum ad hominem. Please learn the rules of debating at http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/logic.html
Carlos Hernandez
I use the rules of rational debate with those who deserve such treatment. You do not. As John Cleese once said, "There are some people one should wish to offend." You have come to this forum spouting your racist garbage. You do it in a weaselly indirect manner so as to deflect direct refutation.
I don't know what your motivation is, or why you chose this site to "enlighten" us with your racist propaganda. I have neither the time nor will to argue every little point with you. You seem to have quite a bit of time on your hands, and nothing better to do with it than spread your racism.
You like psychoanalyzing posts, so I'll analyze you. You are of slightly better than average intelligence, but this has given you a feeling of entitlement. You feel you are better than others because of it. Combined with a dissolute character, and non-existant personal skills, you have found yourself a lonely failure in life, and built up a resentment of those around you. Rather than admit your failings, you have attributed them to a personal philosophy of detached analytical rationalism. You now express your deep seeded hatred of others as scientific racism. You divorce emotion from your rhetoric because it would be self defeating. Your painful isolation from society may have been severe enough that you are successfully self deluded, and actually believe the things you post. You appeal to the rules of rational debate to get others to give at least momentary credance to the philisophical basis of your hatred. I will not.
Njorl
Carlos Hernandez
Dec26-03, 02:31 AM
Originally posted by Njorl
I use the rules of rational debate with those who deserve such treatment. You do not. As John Cleese once said, "There are some people one should wish to offend." You have come to this forum spouting your racist garbage. You do it in a weaselly indirect manner so as to deflect direct refutation.
I don't know what your motivation is, or why you chose this site to "enlighten" us with your racist propaganda. I have neither the time nor will to argue every little point with you. You seem to have quite a bit of time on your hands, and nothing better to do with it than spread your racism.
You like psychoanalyzing posts, so I'll analyze you. You are of slightly better than average intelligence, but this has given you a feeling of entitlement. You feel you are better than others because of it. Combined with a dissolute character, and non-existant personal skills, you have found yourself a lonely failure in life, and built up a resentment of those around you. Rather than admit your failings, you have attributed them to a personal philosophy of detached analytical rationalism. You now express your deep seeded hatred of others as scientific racism. You divorce emotion from your rhetoric because it would be self defeating. Your painful isolation from society may have been severe enough that you are successfully self deluded, and actually believe the things you post. You appeal to the rules of rational debate to get others to give at least momentary credance to the philisophical basis of your hatred. I will not.
Njorl
Argumentum ad hominem. Please learn the rules of debating at http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/logic.html
Regards,
Carlos Hernandez
Physics Forums is not a forum for racists, or for racist thought...this conversation is over.
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