Child Bride

[Astronuc]

This story is very disturbing and sends me into a rage! Abuse of children and women is wholly inappropriate and unacceptable - period!

from Hotzones by Kevin Sites
http://hotzone.yahoo.com/b/hotzone/blogs2986

Married at the age of four, an Afghan girl was subjected to years of beatings and torture, finally escaping to discover that within all the world's cruelty, there is also some kindness.

KABUL, Afghanistan - Eleven-year old Gulsoma lay in a heap on the ground in front of her father-in-law. He told her that if she didn't find a missing watch by the next morning he would kill her. He almost had already.

I do not want to hear rhetoric from the US government that Afghanistan is on its way to democracy - not when girls and women are treated as less than human. :mad:

[Mental Gridlock]

I also recently heard a story about someone being sentenced to death for the crime of converting from Islam to Christianity. They said they would spare him if he converted back to Islam but he won't so they are going to kill him.

I am just wondering to those people in our government who said they were bringing freedom to Afghanistan, my question is, where's the freedom?:confused:

[daveb]

Well, remember there are freedom fighters there.:tongue2:

[BobG]

This story is very disturbing and sends me into a rage! Abuse of children and women is wholly inappropriate and unacceptable - period!

from Hotzones by Kevin Sites
http://hotzone.yahoo.com/b/hotzone/blogs2986



I do not want to hear rhetoric from the US government that Afghanistan is on its way to democracy - not when girls and women are treated as less than human. :mad:
Technically, Afghanistan is a democracy, already. Like any democracy, they can vote in whatever laws fit with their culture.

Hamas was also elected democratically and Iraq might wind up a theocratic government enforcing religious laws because that's what the majority of Iraqis want.

Being a democracy just reflects what type of government they have. Just because they have the same type of government doesn't mean they have to adopt an American style culture, as well.

Additionally, if you say Afghanistan isn't a democracy because the majority of the people favor restrictive (or oppressive laws), then you also have to ask at what point the US actually became a democracy. Slavery wasn't outlawed until the civil war and voting rights weren't extended to women until the 1900's.

Democracy just a provides a vehicle for change to ensure the government keeps up with changes in the culture. It doesn't mean you have to drive the vehicle very fast or even drive the vehicle forward.

[scott1]

I do not want to hear rhetoric from the US government that Afghanistan is on its way to democracy - not when girls and women are treated as less than human. :mad:
The preblom is that there are small remote tribes in afghanstan that the central goverment have little control with and some of those tribes very hostile.
But I have to agree with the US government needs to do somthing about this and they probally already know about this.

[russ_watters]

This story is very disturbing and sends me into a rage! Abuse of children and women is wholly inappropriate and unacceptable - period!

from Hotzones by Kevin Sites
http://hotzone.yahoo.com/b/hotzone/blogs2986

I do not want to hear rhetoric from the US government that Afghanistan is on its way to democracy - not when girls and women are treated as less than human. :mad: In the news right now (I hadn't heard about that one...) is a man who is about to be sentenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianity. I can't understand why we allowed the government to be set up in a way that allows such a thing.

[loseyourname]

I never thought the point was to bring freedom to Afghanistan anyway. Sure, it's great if that happens, but the point was to eliminate the Taliban regime that was hiding Bin Laden and refused to give him up. They were given an ultimatum and they chose to be deposed.

[Pengwuino]

I do not want to hear rhetoric from the US government that Afghanistan is on its way to democracy - not when girls and women are treated as less than human. :mad:

Don't get a culture's moral and ethical guidelines confused with their system of government. It's like saying no european country should be able to complain about the US since the EU supports the UN which allows ethnic genocides to occur. Rediculous.

[TheStatutoryApe]

The preblom is that there are small remote tribes in afghanstan that the central goverment have little control with and some of those tribes very hostile.
But I have to agree with the US government needs to do somthing about this and they probally already know about this.
Because the US government hasn't stuck it's nose in others people's business enough lately I guess.
Let the new UN Human Rights Committee deal with it.

[Astronuc]

Don't get a culture's moral and ethical guidelines confused with their system of government. It's like saying no european country should be able to complain about the US since the EU supports the UN which allows ethnic genocides to occur. Rediculous. Well democracy is pretty meaningless if the government does not protect the children! I know it's not there yet, but I must wonder if it well ever be! The same goes for Iraq.

I am quite certain that Bush and Cheney would accept an Afghanistan and Iraq that cooperate peacefully and present no threat to the US, even if the rights of civilians are violated in the most agregious ways, as in the case of the girl or young woman in question.

Similarly, the US government tolerated governments in South and Central America, which supported, endorsed and participated in death squads, as well as torture and murder of innocent people.

[BobG]

In the news right now (I hadn't heard about that one...) is a man who is about to be sentenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianity. I can't understand why we allowed the government to be set up in a way that allows such a thing.
Maybe because we only had two choices: establish a democracy where they decide their own laws or install an American government (via resident puppets) that imposes American values.

You can't get a Western style democracy unless you have a strong middle class, which usually means a strong economy with international trade ties that promote a mingling of cultures. Afghanistan is poverty, has been for decades, and will probably be for a few more decades. They don't have a lot of natural resources and are additionally handicapped by having several diverse (and often hostile) groups living within the same border. It's a long shot that a democratic government will survive for long after the US leaves, regardless of whether it's a Western style democracy or one more reflective of Afghanistan's culture and value - but the odds are probably a little better if Afghanistan's government reflects the values and culture of its citizens.

As loseyourname mentioned, the reason for the US invading was to chase al-Qaida. The Taliban was only a target because they chose to come between us and Bin Laden. Establishing a democracy attempts to do two things:

- Put a more positive spin on an invasion that really didn't require a more positive spin.

- Presumably a stable democracy would be less likely to provide a safe haven for terrorists. We'd be less likely to have to invade the same country a second time. Of course, it's questionable whether you can have a stable democracy in such an unstable country, but ....

[Mental Gridlock]

In the news right now (I hadn't heard about that one...) is a man who is about to be sentenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianity.

Hadn't heard anything on that one huh. Have you ever tried reading the thread before you post? You might learn something!

[Mental Gridlock]

I never thought the point was to bring freedom to Afghanistan anyway. Sure, it's great if that happens, but the point was to eliminate the Taliban regime that was hiding Bin Laden and refused to give him up...

That's not what they told me! I was somehow under the impression that we were supposed to bring freedom to Afghanistan.

"In Afghanistan I believe that the freedom there is a gift from the Almighty."

-George W. Bush

"I believe a free Afghanistan is in this nation's interest."

-George W. Bush

(there's plenty more too but just a couple examples to start)

So yes, thanks for laying out the difference between freedom and democracy. It is nice that we have helped set up a democratic society which can help facilitate oppression, but I am wondering where is this FREEDOM that our government promised.

[scott1]

Let the new UN Human Rights Committee deal with it.
Yes this there job.There new we should let them deal with this so that people will know it will do it's job.

[Bystander]

Well democracy is pretty meaningless if the government does not protect the children!(snip)

Half dozen readings, and this still isn't making sense to me. Rather than assuming a context and putting words into your "fingers," I'll just ask, "What is the relationship between child welfare and democracy?"

[scott1]

I'll just ask, "What is the relationship between child welfare and democracy?"
Human rights is very improtent for democracy.If you can't protect human rights for children in demoracy then there is no demoracy.

[Dagenais]

Human rights is very improtent for democracy.If you can't protect human rights for children in demoracy then there is no demoracy.

That's democracy in the United States now, but this wasn't the case a few decades ago. The US ran a democratic system, and the US had serious civil rights issues. They still called themselves a democracy.

You can't compare the established democracy in the United States to the democracy in Afghanistan. A new Government takes time - some people just don't seem to get that.

Did you seriously expect human rights, peace, and an american way of life in Afghanistan just a few years after the US invaded?


I am quite certain that Bush and Cheney would accept an Afghanistan and Iraq that cooperate peacefully and present no threat to the US, even if the rights of civilians are violated in the most agregious ways, as in the case of the girl or young woman in question.

You are quite certain because you talked to them personally about this? They told you this?

Or are you just guessing?

[Evo]

Human rights are being addressed, but it is going to take a very long time for the people of Afghanistan to accept Western values, if ever. A good example (as has been previously mentioned) is the "Christian" condemed to death for coverting from Islam, a crime punishable by death under the Afghan Constitution. A choice of Islam or death doesn't seem to be religious freedom to me.

"Afghanistan is in its evolutionary state as a democratic state, and we'll have to work to resolve these contradictions as they move forward."

"Rahman is charged with rejecting Islam by converting to Christianity, an offense that can be punishable by death under the Afghan constitution, which is based in sharia, or Islamic law.

"But the case has illustrated a split in Afghanistan over the interpretation of the constitution, which calls for religious freedom while stating that Muslims who reject Islam can be executed.

Even moderate Muslims are incensed by Rahman's conversion, as top clerics on Thursday called for his execution.

"Rejecting Islam is insulting God. We will not allow God to be humiliated. This man must die," cleric Abdul Raoulf told The Associated Press."

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/asiapcf/03/24/afghan.convert/index.html

[Astronuc]

Definition of democracy (Merriam-Webster.com) -

1 a : government by the people; especially : rule of the majority b : a government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them directly or indirectly through a system of representation usually involving periodically held free elections

4 : the common people especially when constituting the source of political authority

5 : the absence of hereditary or arbitrary class distinctions or privileges


It is not clear the people of Afghanistan or even Iraq voted in free elections, especially when candidates are selected by a minority of people and many people are illiterate and were told for whom to vote.

The problems for democracy in Afghanistan and Iraq are cultural. There is no history of democracy, and the fundamentalist practices of some Muslims conflict with western ideals of democracy. Where women or ethnic minorities are excluded from the political process, there can be no democracy by definition.

As for the US, it is a limited democracy. Many policies enacted by the federal goverment seem counter to the "welfare of the people" - at least that is what I have observed. There are certainly subtle class distinctions in the US, and corporate managers and the wealthy have many more priveleges than the average person - also my observation.

[Bystander]

(snip)It is not clear the people of Afghanistan or even Iraq voted in free elections, especially when candidates are selected by a minority of people and many people are illiterate and were told for whom to vote.

How is this different from what will take place in November in this country?

The problems for democracy in Afghanistan and Iraq are cultural. There is no history of democracy, and the fundamentalist practices of some Muslims conflict with western ideals of democracy.

Correct.

Where women or ethnic minorities are excluded from the political process, there can be no democracy by definition.

SW Asia is outside SCOTUS' jurisdiction; application of rulings on "means tests," essentially, a SCOTUS definition of democracy, is irrelevant. (snip)

This thread has moved from outrage over "child bride" to the fuzzy arena of defining democracy and an observation that the U. S. is a "limited democracy;" it's lost focus. Are you outraged at the cultural and social practices embodied in Islam and Sharia? That democracy can include such abominations? That people, given the option, can elect to be governed by a bunch of ignorant, senile, bearded nutcases rather than stapling them to the nearest ant hill? By the implications for the future? That the current archaeological party line is that this is the "cradle of civilization" that we're discussing, and it would be nicer to point to a more enlightened cultural and social heritage?

[moose]

I also recently heard a story about someone being sentenced to death for the crime of converting from Islam to Christianity. They said they would spare him if he converted back to Islam but he won't so they are going to kill him.

I am just wondering to those people in our government who said they were bringing freedom to Afghanistan, my question is, where's the freedom?:confused:

Nothing takes only a few years. Give it time

EDIT"
In the news right now (I hadn't heard about that one...) is a man who is about to be sentenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianity. I can't understand why we allowed the government to be set up in a way that allows such a thing.

If it is allowed and practiced, well, we gave them democracy and they take it from there. If we were to force them to set up government a certain way, it wouldn't be democracy and people would go crazy and be pissed at America even more for forcing them to do stuff.

[russ_watters]

I never thought the point was to bring freedom to Afghanistan anyway. Sure, it's great if that happens, but the point was to eliminate the Taliban regime that was hiding Bin Laden and refused to give him up. They were given an ultimatum and they chose to be deposed. I agree, but it would help to prevent a relapse if we set up a stable, modern government there.

As Wilson pointed out in his 14 points, then was later implimented after WWII, since anarchy is a breeding ground for things like terrorism and hate, it should be general practice to rebuild the government of anyone we conquer.

[russ_watters]

That's democracy in the United States now, but this wasn't the case a few decades ago. The US ran a democratic system, and the US had serious civil rights issues. They still called themselves a democracy.

You can't compare the established democracy in the United States to the democracy in Afghanistan. A new Government takes time - some people just don't seem to get that. The second paragraph kinda contradicts the first, though that is kinda because the first kinda misses the point: A democracy must protect rights to be logically and philosophically consistent. A democracy that doesn't is not living up to its name. So scott1 is correct and having not specified a country, it should be assumed that he was talking about general philosophical principles.

[Mental Gridlock]

Nothing takes only a few years. Give it time.

Thank you for the answer! I will be more patient. Hell we don't even have freedom here in my country and it has already been 230 years since we established that very concept as our founding doctrine. Sometimes I ask stupid questions sometimes my fault.

[franzbear!]

How is this different from what will take place in November in this country?
I stray, very cautiously, from my home and poke my nose around here, but even I with my limited experience can see the obvious answer to this question. One, most people in the U.S. are literate and have access to a vast amount of information: two, we are not told who to vote for. We have two primary parties, each of which make a vigorous effort to convince us to vote for them. We choose between the two, our choice. Voter turnout is only low because people choose it, so they are abdicating their resonsibilty to the winner. In essence, they helped choose him due to their absence of voting, because it was their choice that kept them from voting. Thus in America the leaders are always chosen by the majority due to our freedom. This is not the case in other countries where informatino is censored and controlled, and where there are little freedoms to the public.

[siddharth]

Sadly, even though India has been a democratic country for more than 50 years, child marriages are still widely prevelant in the country. Though the Supreme Court in India has banned child marriages, this law is at times, either ignored or not enforced.

Child Marriages Continue (http://www.indlawnews.com/4789aa7264d57b21f3920ba2f8049a0e)
http://www.indlawnews.com/1ca607e36cfc5e33ac5421f52eefcdd9