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isaackoi2@gmail.com
May11-06, 05:00 AM
Greetings,

I'm currently brushing up on my rather dated knowledge of atmospheric
plasmas and would appreciate a bit of help.

While I'd welcome suggestions of links or books to bring me up to date,
at the moment I'm particularly interested in the modern view on two
statements about plasma dating back to the late 1960s.

Are the following generally regarded as correct today?

Or have things materially moved on in plasma research in the last 30 or
so years?


(1) One of my books dates back to 1968 and contains the following:

"... controlled fusion power will require the creation of plasma with a
temperature of hundreds of millions of degrees and the generation of a
'magnetic bottle' to contain and insulate this plasma. These problems
are among the most difficult and challenging in physical sciences today
and have occupied the full attention of some of the world's best
physicists for the past decade. The problem is still far from being
solved".

Does the above quote still represent the current position (albeit with
the reference to "the past decade" needing to be updated to "the last
[?40] years)?

Is plasma containment for nuclear fusion still one of the stumbling
blocks for developing fusion as a power source, or is progress now
being impeded primarily by other issues?


(2) Also, I've read some material on a plasma conference in 1969
(attended by various representatives of the University of California,
Los Alamos Scientific Lab, and others). That material includes a
conclusion that cnntainment of plasma by magnetic fields is not likely
under atmospheric conditions for more than a second or so.

Is the duration of "a second or so" still regarded as the upper limit?


Or has subsequent research indicated that plasmas may be stable under
atmospheric conditions for longer periods?

I note that the abstract of a more recent paper (dating back to 1989)
at the link below implies that ball lightning may have a lifetime "of
over 100 s".
http://intl.ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/abs_free.jsp?arNumber=102474

I had understood that ball lightning was a form of atmospheric plasma
(but would welcome a correction if my understanding is incorrect).

So, is there a conflict between the 1989 paper and the view at the
conference in 1969?

If there is no conflict, I do not understand at the moment how are the
two different time periods to be reconciled. Can anyone explain or
point me in the right direction?

If there is (as there appears to me at present) a conflict between the
1989 paper and the view in 1969, which is correct? Has knowledge of
plasma improved, or was the statement in 1969 simply wrong?

Any help at all (even pointing me in the right direction for further
research) would be appreciated.

Kind Regards,

Isaac Koi

grisly
May12-06, 05:00 AM
On Wed, 10 May 2006 12:45:48 +0000, isaackoi2 wrote:

> Greetings,
>
> I'm currently brushing up on my rather dated knowledge of atmospheric
> plasmas and would appreciate a bit of help.
>
> While I'd welcome suggestions of links or books to bring me up to date,
> at the moment I'm particularly interested in the modern view on two
> statements about plasma dating back to the late 1960s.
>
> Are the following generally regarded as correct today?
>
> Or have things materially moved on in plasma research in the last 30 or
> so years?
>
>
> (1) One of my books dates back to 1968 and contains the following:
>
> "... controlled fusion power will require the creation of plasma with a
> temperature of hundreds of millions of degrees and the generation of a
> 'magnetic bottle' to contain and insulate this plasma. These problems
> are among the most difficult and challenging in physical sciences today
> and have occupied the full attention of some of the world's best
> physicists for the past decade. The problem is still far from being
> solved".
>
> Does the above quote still represent the current position (albeit with
> the reference to "the past decade" needing to be updated to "the last
> [?40] years)?
>
> Is plasma containment for nuclear fusion still one of the stumbling
> blocks for developing fusion as a power source, or is progress now
> being impeded primarily by other issues?
>
>
> (2) Also, I've read some material on a plasma conference in 1969
> (attended by various representatives of the University of California,
> Los Alamos Scientific Lab, and others). That material includes a
> conclusion that cnntainment of plasma by magnetic fields is not likely
> under atmospheric conditions for more than a second or so.
>
> Is the duration of "a second or so" still regarded as the upper limit?
>
>
> Or has subsequent research indicated that plasmas may be stable under
> atmospheric conditions for longer periods?
>
> I note that the abstract of a more recent paper (dating back to 1989)
> at the link below implies that ball lightning may have a lifetime "of
> over 100 s".
> http://intl.ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/abs_free.jsp?arNumber=102474
>
> I had understood that ball lightning was a form of atmospheric plasma
> (but would welcome a correction if my understanding is incorrect).
>
> So, is there a conflict between the 1989 paper and the view at the
> conference in 1969?
>
> If there is no conflict, I do not understand at the moment how are the
> two different time periods to be reconciled. Can anyone explain or
> point me in the right direction?
>
> If there is (as there appears to me at present) a conflict between the
> 1989 paper and the view in 1969, which is correct? Has knowledge of
> plasma improved, or was the statement in 1969 simply wrong?
>
> Any help at all (even pointing me in the right direction for further
> research) would be appreciated.
>
> Kind Regards,
>
> Isaac Koi
it is a great time to be alive.
http://pesn.com/2006/03/08/9600242_Spheromak_Plasma_Toroid/

Cl.Massé
May21-06, 05:00 AM
<isaackoi2@gmail.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
1147262257.333788.6070@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.co m

> Greetings,
>
> I'm currently brushing up on my rather dated knowledge of atmospheric
> plasmas and would appreciate a bit of help.
>
> While I'd welcome suggestions of links or books to bring me up to date,
> at the moment I'm particularly interested in the modern view on two
> statements about plasma dating back to the late 1960s.
>
> Are the following generally regarded as correct today?
>
> Or have things materially moved on in plasma research in the last 30 or
> so years?
>
> (1) One of my books dates back to 1968 and contains the following:
>
> "... controlled fusion power will require the creation of plasma with a
> temperature of hundreds of millions of degrees and the generation of a
> 'magnetic bottle' to contain and insulate this plasma. These problems
> are among the most difficult and challenging in physical sciences today
> and have occupied the full attention of some of the world's best
> physicists for the past decade. The problem is still far from being
> solved".
>
> Does the above quote still represent the current position (albeit with
> the reference to "the past decade" needing to be updated to "the last
> [?40] years)?

All depends on what is understood by "far from being solved." We haven't
yet commercial power plants, but sizeable progress have been made,
actually, many orders of magnitude. But note it isn't about atmospheric
plasma, but the way that have proven to be most promising for generating
energy through controlled fusion. Its competitor, inertial fusion, seems
abandoned.

> Is plasma containment for nuclear fusion still one of the stumbling
> blocks for developing fusion as a power source, or is progress now
> being impeded primarily by other issues?

No, confinement is working, but now we need to get enough temperature,
confined mass, and confinement time for the process to break even regarding
the energy balance, which would yet be a short way toward commercial
profitability.

> (2) Also, I've read some material on a plasma conference in 1969
> (attended by various representatives of the University of California,
> Los Alamos Scientific Lab, and others). That material includes a
> conclusion that cnntainment of plasma by magnetic fields is not likely
> under atmospheric conditions for more than a second or so.
>
> Is the duration of "a second or so" still regarded as the upper limit?

I don't know, but it isn't the only parameter. The relevant parameter is a
combination of time, temperature, mass, and pressure.

> Or has subsequent research indicated that plasmas may be stable under
> atmospheric conditions for longer periods?
>
> I note that the abstract of a more recent paper (dating back to 1989)
> at the link below implies that ball lightning may have a lifetime "of
> over 100 s".
> http://intl.ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/abs_free.jsp?arNumber=102474
>
> I had understood that ball lightning was a form of atmospheric plasma
> (but would welcome a correction if my understanding is incorrect).

It's quite another kind of plasma. Here, it is charged oxygen and nitrogen
atoms plus electrons near atmospheric pressure, while in magnetic
confinement, it is a plasma similar to the matter of the sun.

> So, is there a conflict between the 1989 paper and the view at the
> conference in 1969?

Then, no.

> If there is no conflict, I do not understand at the moment how are the
> two different time periods to be reconciled. Can anyone explain or
> point me in the right direction?
>
> If there is (as there appears to me at present) a conflict between the
> 1989 paper and the view in 1969, which is correct? Has knowledge of
> plasma improved, or was the statement in 1969 simply wrong?
>
> Any help at all (even pointing me in the right direction for further
> research) would be appreciated.

Fusion in magnetic confinement is a hot topic of research, there is a big
project called ITER that is entirely devoted to this subject (that happens
to be located in France). The knowledge is therefore evolving very
rapidly. On the other hand, atmospheric plasma should not have
fundamentally changed.

--
~~~~ clmasse on free F-country
Liberty, Equality, Profitability.