Males Versus Females [Archive]

zoobyshoe

Jun22-06, 04:10 PM

I mean we're human beings at the 1st place not men and women.
Lisa! I agree with you on this. It has always seemed obvious to me that the overlap between men and women is so great that the differences are not that important. I very, very frequently find myself having a better rapport, on a general human level, with some women than I do with other guys. If I encounter a woman I can't communicate with, it's not because of her sex, but because of some greater individual difference between us: values, interests, the way we were raised, and such. I encounter guys all the time with whom I have no rapport and don't understand and couldn't form a friendship with and who might as well be from another planet for all I understand them.

That said, there are important differences between the sexes that people shouldn't pretend don't exist. To say men and women are equal is something like saying bananas and peaches are equal: it implies an interchangability and sameness that doesn't carry through to all situations. Broadly speaking, each gender has different, but complimentary, strengths. But, given the obvious proof all around us, I don't think anyone should think that people can't excell at things traditionally thought to be the domain of the other gender.

Bladibla

Jun22-06, 04:58 PM

Men are the best.

Women are not.

Its as simple as that.

Omega_6

Jun22-06, 05:08 PM

There are certain things that men get the best of, and other things that women get the best of...I feel that it evens out overall (In our society, at least. There are places where this is not true, and these are the places where people should complain.) I don't really want men and women to be the SAME...:grumpy:

There have been times when I have felt like you Lisa!, except that I was treated unfairly because I was male and not female. It works both ways. Isn't there some kind of saying for this phenomenon...oh yes, "The grass is always greener on the other side (of the fence?).":wink:

Math Is Hard

Jun22-06, 11:49 PM

Men are the best.

Women are not.

Its as simple as that.
Did your boyfriend tell you that? :tongue2:

honestrosewater

Jun23-06, 12:20 AM

There's a sociologist, Michael Kimmel (http://www.concertideas.com/mk/), who studies masculinity and likes to tell a story about an exchange between two of his then fellow grad students at a study group back in the 1980s.
In a discussion between two female participants, I first confronted this invisibility of gender to men. I described that moment in the introduction to Manhood in America: A Cultural History:

During one meeting, a white woman and a black woman were discussing whether all women were, by definition, "sisters," because "all women," the white woman noted, had essentially the same experiences as women, and because "all women" faced a common oppression by men. Thus, the white woman asserted that the fact that they were both women bonded them, in spite of racial differences. The black woman disagreed.

"When you wake up in the morning and look in the mirror, what do you see?" she asked.

"I see a woman," replied the white woman.

"That's precisely the problem," responded the black woman. "I see a black woman. To me, race is visible every day, because race is how I am not privileged in our culture. Race is invisible to you, because it's how you are privileged. It's a luxury, a privilege, not to see race all the time. It's why there will always be differences in our experience."

As I witnessed this exchange, I was startled, and groaned -- more audibly, perhaps, than I had intended. Being the only man in the room, someone asked what my response had meant.

"Well," I said, "when I look in the mirror, I see a human being. I'm universally generalizable. As a middle class white man, I have no class, no race, no gender. I'm the generic person!"

Sometimes, I like to think that it was on that day that I became a middle class white man.

-Source (http://www.law.duke.edu/journals/djglp/articles/gen4p181.htm)I like the other way he tells it: "...that's the way privilege works. Privilege is invisible to those who have it."

I think these discussions get off on the wrong foot by not clarifying exactly what is meant by "men" and "women" and the differences between the group level and the individual level. Anywho, I love that we have this concept of a generic person, an individual without any further discriminations. (Though I wish English had a common pronoun to refer to this person.) I used to see myself that way when I was younger, and I'm curious about how often these days you guy's biological sex is a factor in your being granted some privilege, or right, vs. being denied one, or even just a factor in your being treated differently.

I have experiences both ways all of the time, and I'd really like to know in whose world gender equality actually exists.

Curious3141

Jun23-06, 03:44 AM

I think Yes, Minister said it best (love that series - and the books!)

(significantly paraphrasing)"...minority groups like Blacks, women and the disabled..."

"Are women really a minority group?"

"No, but they share the paranoia that is the defining feature of a minority group."

ZINNNNGGGG!!!! :biggrin: :rofl:

zoobyshoe

Jun23-06, 04:13 AM

I'm never oblivious to gender, but I have found that I become oblivious to people being black if they speak with a "white" accent. I have five casual friends like this and their being of African descent pretty much faded to insignifigance after the first meeting. When they refer to it every once in a while it startles me. I feel like saying: "You're not a black person, just a person."

Anttech

Jun23-06, 04:24 AM

I'm never oblivious to gender, but I have found that I become oblivious to people being black if they speak with a "white" accent.Interesting that you said "white" accent. Classism IMO is far more evident and distruptive nowadays that Racism, or sexism (in the UK at least). The way to judge which "Class" someone belongs to is typically by the way that person speaks.

zoobyshoe

Jun23-06, 07:18 AM

Interesting that you said "white" accent. Classism IMO is far more evident and distruptive nowadays that Racism, or sexism (in the UK at least). The way to judge which "Class" someone belongs to is typically by the way that person speaks.
I put it in quotes because no one commonly refers to it as an accent at all. Blacks, themselves, refer to it as "talkin' proper".

What whites call a "Black accent" is actually the strong southern accent Blacks all learned to speak English with way back when they were abducted from Africa. There's nothing African about it, but if you wanted to be especially politically correct you might call it an "African-American accent." I'm not sure but I think in deep southern states whites and blacks percieve each other as speaking with the same accent.

Here in the US the only things we have suggestive of Class distinctions are pretty much relegated to money. The more money you have the more social status. That being the case people can change class with a change in their financial situation. How well a person speaks English is an indicator only of how well they want to speak it (witness our president), and accent is pretty much a regional, not a class, indicator.

Lisa!

Jun23-06, 12:52 PM

Well I guess most of you guys failed to get my point here.
I'm not ranting that it's always women who're treadted unfairly .No, in fact it seems to me that it's the other way nor I have any wish to be a man and be treated like them all the time.
What I'm concerned about is that why most of us have a narrowminded view on opposit sex. well I see that even the stupid guys think that they're smarter and better than all women(well, I guess he thinks that way because of his stupidity) I think we should get to decide about people 1 by 1 and not simply generalize. I mean you try to know someone and then pass judgement on her/him not simply thinking 'well you know how women are so she must be the same way'.
I'm not going to deny our differences and expect society to tread me like men in all cases. I say both men and women have strengthes and weaknesses, and each sexes should try to make up for the opposit sex's weaknesses by his/her strengthes not trying to make fun of that or use it for proving his/her own suporiority!
what I mean by equality is I expect a man to consider me as a human and not a person from the opposit sex. It gets important when they want to get to decide on a issue or pass a judgment. For example it happenes that when you tell a story to people which a man and woman are involved, men accuse the woman of being guilty and vice versa!
Well although I tried to clarify my point here but I'm still in doubt any of you(well other than women) can get my point here.

There's a sociologist, Michael Kimmel (http://www.concertideas.com/mk/), who studies masculinity and likes to tell a story about an exchange between two of his then fellow grad students at a study group back in the 1980s.
I like the other way he tells it: "...that's the way privilege works. Privilege is invisible to those who have it."

I think these discussions get off on the wrong foot by not clarifying exactly what is meant by "men" and "women" and the differences between the group level and the individual level. Anywho, I love that we have this concept of a generic person, an individual without any further discriminations. (Though I wish English had a common pronoun to refer to this person.) I used to see myself that way when I was younger, and I'm curious about how often these days you guy's biological sex is a factor in your being granted some privilege, or right, vs. being denied one, or even just a factor in your being treated differently.

I have experiences both ways all of the time, and I'd really like to know in whose world gender equality actually exists.
Thanks for your reply!:smile:
Well if you notice we don't have equality in most of languages. For example we refer to men as he and women as she in English and we use he for human in genral.well gladly that in our language we use the same pronoun for both sexes but there are other sort problems. Eh I even know of some languages when they refer to object as 'she'!:rolleyes:

Hootenanny

Jun23-06, 12:55 PM

Lisa!

Jun23-06, 01:17 PM

Another interesting point is history; his-story.
very intersting, Hoot!:smile:

George Jones

Jun23-06, 01:37 PM

Well if you notice we don't have equality in most of languages. For example we refer to men as he and women as she in English and we use he for human in genral.well gladly that in our language we use the same pronoun for both sexes but there are other sort problems. Eh I even know of some languages when they refer to object as 'she'!:rolleyes:

When I first made my signature, I was somewhat leery of using the Samuel Johnson quote because of its obvious sexism. I decided that people would take it as a product of its times, and not as an indication that I endorsed the seeking of knowledge only by men.

Douglas Hofstadter (author of Godel, Escher, Bach; son of a quarky physics Nobel laureate) wrote a very interesting essay about sexism in language. "Changes in Default Words and Images, Engendered by Rising Consciousness" appeared both in the column Metamagical Themas of the November 1982 issue of Scientific American, and in the book Metamagical Themas.

SizarieldoR

Jun23-06, 03:07 PM

Well yeah, and stuff, but we males still have the testosteron :P

Cyrus

Jun23-06, 03:39 PM

The problem is lisa, as I said before, most of us don't face your problem because we don't live in Iran with a backwards culture. It's simply not THAT big a deal here anymore, for the most part. I think you are frustrated because that sort of thing IS a big deal over there.

But again, that is because Iran decided to move backwards and not forwards after 1979. So, you all got what you wished for!

Astronuc

Jun23-06, 04:17 PM

I like the other way he tells it: "...that's the way privilege works. Privilege is invisible to those who have it." Very true.

. . . , and I'm curious about how often these days you guy's biological sex is a factor in your being granted some privilege, or right, vs. being denied one, or even just a factor in your being treated differently. I don't think I have ever been at a disadvantage for being male.

I have experiences both ways all of the time, and I'd really like to know in whose world gender equality actually exists. As far as professional skills, competence or performance is concerned, gender doesn't matter. All I care about is that someone is responsible and capable.

I work closely with colleagues both male and female, and of different races and ethnic groups, even religious backgrounds. That is all incidental. Bottomline - work is work, results are results - that's all I care about. Beyond work - I very much appreciate all of my colleagues.

As for concerns that women are more likely to be distracted by family matters. Bull****. I am invested in my wife and kids as much as my wife is invested in me and the kids. My wife and I are a team in this regard. I want to be able to take time off for my family -- they are the priority in my life. The job is what I do, not what I am.

As for male vs female. Poor male attitudes toward women have to do with insecurity. It is pure nonsense to arbitrarily think that 'men' are superior to 'women'. Growup! :rolleyes:

As a person with privilege, I have the responsibility to use that privilege to minimize that privilege in favor of straightforward justice and equality!

Bottomline - if the system is unjust - it needs to be changed - and I am bound and determined to change it - or die trying!

As for
It's simply not THAT big a deal here anymore . . . .
um yes it is still a big deal in some places within the US, especially in some large corporations, even though they publicly announce or advertise their non-discrimination policies. And look at the Southern Baptist Convention which removed women from positions of responsibility in favor of men, and look at some of their statements regarding the superiority of men to women.

One issue that has been great fodder for critics of the Southern Baptist Convention has been their attitudes toward and treatment of women. In the 1998 convention they revised the Baptist Faith and Message to state that wives must submit to their husbands. In 2000, they passed rules to prevent women from serving as pastor. This has put them out of step with most Protestant denominations. http://atheism.about.com/od/baptistssouthernbaptists/a/baptistwomen.htm

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/religion/jan-june98/baptist_6-10.html

A wife is to submit herself graciously to the servant leadership of her husband . . . . She, . . . . , has the God-given responsibility to respect her husband and to serve as his helper in managing the household and nurturing the next generation. SBC, Baptist Faith and Message, XVIII. The Family

I am not picking on them, I am simply pointing out the belief on the part of some that women seem to be expected to be subservient to men, and this is contrary to equality.

Averagesupernova

Jun23-06, 04:31 PM

It is pure nonsense to arbitarily think that 'men' are superior to 'women'. Growup.

I think I know what you mean, but men are superior to women. In certain areas. And women are superior to men in other areas. It's what makes men men and women women. If it were any other way we would all be the same sex. I don't think anything of it. It has never made me feel inferior that there are things I cannot do as well as most women. It should work the same way the other way around. If what I say and believe makes me a sexist then I'm proud to be guilty.

Math Is Hard

Jun23-06, 04:32 PM

I always liked what Njorl had to say on the subject:

After having kids, my wife and I realized that the battle of the sexes was small potatoes. We long for those petty squabbles in the days before we were enslaved by our tyrannical and diminutive underlords. "Yes master, I will change your diaper. There is no need to pull it off yourself and whirl it about the room as a demonstration of your power."

:biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:

Moonbear

Jun23-06, 05:03 PM

I think I know what you mean, but men are superior to women. In certain areas. And women are superior to men in other areas. It's what makes men men and women women. If it were any other way we would all be the same sex. I don't think anything of it. It has never made me feel inferior that there are things I cannot do as well as most women. It should work the same way the other way around. If what I say and believe makes me a sexist then I'm proud to be guilty.
You seem to be confusing differences with superiority/inferiority. You can have two different ways of doing something, but it doesn't mean one is better than the other. Unless you're talking about giving birth, in which case, yeah, women do that way better than men. :biggrin:

Evo

Jun23-06, 06:41 PM

Ok, the Pf Sisterhood needs to go on a rescue mission to Iran to get Lisa!

MIH, have you perfected the Klingon "cloaking device"? We're going to need that.

Evo

Jun23-06, 06:43 PM

I always liked what Njorl had to say on the subject:

:biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:What happened to Njorl??? :cry:

Astronuc

Jun23-06, 06:45 PM

Ok, the Pf Sisterhood needs to go on a rescue mission to Iran to get Lisa!

MIH, have you perfected the Klingon "cloaking device"? We're going to need that. How about we just upgrade the PF Sisterhood Supersonic RV to Hypersonic Stealth RV? :biggrin:

Just bring it by the PF Engineering Shops, and let Fred, brewnog, Danger, Artman and the other Engineering Gurus perfrom their magic, er art.

. . . , but men are superior to women Um, nope. Generally, that is not the case. Different yes, superior no!

Evo

Jun23-06, 06:47 PM

How about we just upgrade the PF Sisterhood Supersonic RV to Hypersonic Stealth RV? :biggrin:

Just bring it by the PF Engineering Shops, and let Fred, brewnog, Danger, Artman and the other Engineering Gurus perfrom their magic, er art.Ooooh, let me put my list of options together. With that group, I think the RV could achieve interstellar travel. :approve:

Warp 9, Brewnog...make it so.

Astronuc

Jun23-06, 06:57 PM

Ooooh, let me put my list of options together. With that group, I think the RV could achieve interstellar travel. :approve:

Warp 9, Brewnog...make it so. Well, now that you mentioned it, I was thinking along those lines. This sounds like a project for . . .

Astronuc :biggrin:

But first I have to change into might PF tights. :tongue2:

We'll have to bring in the PF Physics and PF Cosmology Departments on that upgrade. :biggrin: :tongue2: :approve:

I am going to have to bring in the PF Spelling Deparment or have mind brain-finger circuits checked. :rolleyes: My spelling has been problematic today. :yuck:

Moonbear

Jun23-06, 06:58 PM

Ooooh, let me put my list of options together. With that group, I think the RV could achieve interstellar travel. :approve:

Warp 9, Brewnog...make it so.
I think the sisterhood needs a men's auxilliary! :biggrin:

Astronuc

Jun23-06, 07:14 PM

I think the sisterhood needs a men's auxilliary! :biggrin:
Danger can be your chauffer and Interstellar Hypersonic Stealth RV pilot.

With regard to this male/female debate, I also have a similar approach to management. I don't hire people to work for me - I hire people to work with me. As a manager, my function is to provide the resources and environment in which my staff to perform to the best of their abilities. A manager should be a mentor.

I can't stand top-down management and managers, especially when they behave in an arbitrary and capricious manner.

Anyway, I work with very cool people. :cool:

Math Is Hard

Jun23-06, 07:32 PM

Ok, the Pf Sisterhood needs to go on a rescue mission to Iran to get Lisa!

MIH, have you perfected the Klingon "cloaking device"? We're going to need that.
Aye. It fits like a glove, Captain. And I'll be ready with the high-powered Zereshk Polo launcher in case we run into any trouble once we land.:wink:

Moonbear

Jun23-06, 07:43 PM

Danger can be your chauffer and Interstellar Hypersonic Stealth RV pilot.
I don't think we could pry Tsu's hands off the steering wheel if we tried. Maybe when she needs a break, we could let Danger take the wheel for a bit...as long as he understands that he must ask for directions if he gets lost! :biggrin:

With regard to this male/female debate, I also have a similar approach to management. I don't hire people to work for me - I hire people to work with me. As a manager, my function is to provide the resources and environment in which my staff to perform to the best of their abilities. A manager should be a mentor.
Ah, you're definitely an academic at heart. That's one of the things I really like about working in academia. The whole point is to train people, so I don't have to find people who are already polished and perfectly trained to do a job, but instead can look for people to bring into the lab whose personalities fit well with the group, and who have a good attitude about learning new stuff, and of course show enough aptitude to learn what we teach them. Male or female doesn't factor into it at all. There is a bias toward hiring men among those in my field though, because we work with large animals. It's very physical work, and unfortunately, there are still a lot of male faculty who don't believe women can really do the work. I show them otherwise, and I've had plenty of petite women work for me...I forewarn them that they'll get thrown around and bruised a bit in the beginning until they develop the strength for the job, and I can show them a lot of little tricks that use the animal's natural behaviors to assist them instead of just brute force to get them to go where we want them. As long as they're willing to get dirty, they'll be able to do the job. Maybe I'll have to recommend they drink cherry juice after their first few days in the barns to help with those aching muscles. :biggrin:

Astronuc

Jun23-06, 08:07 PM

Ah, you're definitely an academic at heart. Actually, I am a hippie and recalcitrant heathen. :rofl: Several universities have talked to me. :biggrin: I kind of busy at the moment with numerous projects, but academia does seem appealing.

Math Is Hard

Jun24-06, 12:58 AM

If someone's (male or female, I don't care) going to get some kubideh, make sure that there's enough for everyone.
Yes, please.:smile: And can I get some of that rice with the sour cherries?

Lisa!

Jun24-06, 07:50 AM

Astronuc

Jun24-06, 08:21 AM

Most People in Iran are open-minded enough not to believe whateverr their politicians and media say about the life and culture in western countries, but it seems that you american have some other sort of problem. Well, I think nationalism or chavinism is somewhat universal. There are many open-minded Americans, just as there are many open-minded Iranians, and there are those who suffer from a parochial myopia related to ignorance from lack of experience.

The everyday experiences of people around the world are more or less the same - the language and culture are different.

So why is that men and women never grow up to stop being sexist and opposing each other? I mean they're always making bad jokes about each other and try to prove their superiority. That's pretty annoying and childish. Some men express this sentiment - not all.
I've to meet someone who really thinks men and women are equal. Please read my posts, and those of Moonbear, and several others.

fourier jr

Jun24-06, 08:30 AM

So why is that men and women never grow up to stop being sexist and opposing each other? I mean they're always making bad jokes about each other and try to prove their superiority. That's pretty annoying and childish.:rolleyes:

Q: why are women such bad drivers?

A: because they're always told that this |------------------------------| is 10 inches :rofl:

Monochrome

Jun24-06, 08:41 AM

It just drives me nuts when I see men think they should take care of women and they're cleverer and stronger than women.

Ignoring the asinine and ironic use of "cleverer" let me try to answer your question in a rational manner:

The basic reason why men think that they are stronger and more clever than women is that they are. Merely look at the lists of prominent scientists through out the ages and one realizes that virtually all (bar three that I know of) are men. If you think that this is due to academic elitism I would like to point out that many had to overcome great social stigma to get their ideas across. While I think no one who is feminist will find this a convincing argument I present the next case. Physical fitness. At every event I can think of at the Olympics the men’s times are significantly lower than the women’s. So much so that gifted male athletes try to beat the women’s world record in their sports as early as high school.

So now that a pattern has been arguably drawn that individuals in the male population when matched to their equivocal percentile in the female population will excel at the given criteria by which the comparison is made one must ask why. The reason is simple and it is the women’s fault that men are better at traits that increase their overall fitness. Evolution. Women are far more picky than men when it comes to mates as such only strong healthy and (reasonably) intelligent males will have offspring. So one can easily understand why that on average each Y chromosome will be positively selected twice as often as each X chromosome. Therefore any negative traits in it will be removed twice as quickly as they are on its counterparts, the X chromosomes. The continued existence of these negative traits, even in different forms, is guaranteed by the continual random mutation of DNA.

So it is really simple, if women want men not to be stronger than them they just need to stop being to picky when it comes to mates and settle with the unfit, dumb and disease ridden. Thereby lowering the evolutionary pressure on the Y chromosome to induce such fitness in men.

Moonbear

Jun24-06, 09:03 AM

Evo, I really didn't expect you to say such a thing base on what a kiddie say. He just wants to draw attention by what he says!:rolleyes: As far as I know our culture is alot more modern than yours. Don't care what some dummie are thinking about women because of what they learned from Arabs. Our woemn were in authority long time ago when in most of countries people didn't consider women as human beings.
Unless I missed something, I think Evo was just playing around (we're always looking for an excuse to take the Turbo RV out for a spin). I don't think either culture is more modern than the other, though, I've never been to Iran to experience it first hand. Then again, it's a bit hard to quantify modernness. Nationalism really is very similar to the male/female debate. There are a lot of differences, and it seems somewhat natural for people to feel that the traits they hold or their country holds are the ones that are the best or most important. I really think it comes down to self-confidence. If you're confident enough to know that you're not going to be less of a person if you openly admit that the other sex, or another country, or another culture, etc., also has great qualities, and is as good as you at them, then you see how much more enjoyable life is to stop wasting time on meaningless comparisons (not to mention how much less hostile it would be).

You think your culture is modeern and don't have that sorta problem anymore. So go read some of post of kiddies and adults in very this board. What they say about women is more backwarded of what some Iranian think. You people justfail to see my point, ok? No need to say bad thing 1 of the greatest culture of the world.
We definitely still have a problem with sexism in the US. I don't think Evo was suggesting otherwise. It has improved quite a lot in the past few decades, but it's still present, especially among the older generation. Though, what's noteworthy, and started to be presented earlier in the thread, but didn't get followed through on, is that as women are gaining a firm foothold in many male-dominated areas, there's a greater tendency of sexism toward men. In other words, if a man says a derogatory remark about women, he'll get cut off and corrected very quickly, but if a woman says a derogatory remark about men, it is very much tolerated still. I almost never hear a guy saying that a woman should do the cleaning anymore, but I still often hear women saying that men aren't any good at it, they can't see dirt, they just make a big mess, they just swish a mop around and think everything is clean, etc. You really can't have it both ways. You can't complain if men tell you cleaning is women's work and complain that men can't do the job. But somehow, people still get away with that. The reality is that there are just as many female slobs as there are male slobs, and just as many men as women who will notice even a speck out of place, or dust in the corners, or who would be disgusted at the idea of using a dirty rag to wipe down the kitchen countertops.

That's really awful when you misunderstand someone. Mots People in Iran are openminded enough not to believe whateverr their politicians and mediasay about the life and culture in western countries, but it seems that you american have some other sort of problem.
Well I guess I'm not going to have any other discussion with you guys, since it's sorta waste of time...:rolleyes:

Regards
I really hope you don't still think it's a waste of time.

Moonbear

Jun24-06, 09:48 AM

Ignoring the asinine and ironic use of "cleverer" let me try to answer your question in a rational manner:

...So one can easily understand why that on average each Y chromosome will be positively selected twice as often as each X chromosome. Therefore any negative traits in it will be removed twice as quickly as they are on its counterparts, the X chromosomes. The continued existence of these negative traits, even in different forms, is guaranteed by the continual random mutation of DNA.
Speaking of irony regarding "cleverer," I suggest you study biology, and specifically genetics and reproduction, a bit more carefully before you expound upon half-baked theories. Men are just as likely to pass their genes on to their daughters as to their sons. Most of the traits you're referring to are not sex-linked on the Y-chromosome, other than those for development of male gonads and thus increased testosterone production, which would relate to strength, but not intellectual abilities. By the way, before you make fun of Lisa!'s word-choice, how often do you converse in a foreign language on internet forums? You might take note that like many others here, English is not her native language. I could pick apart your grammar as well, if you'd like.

Your selective choice of prominent scientists throughout the ages is equally asinine. That you only know of three women scientists only speaks to your own ignorance of the subject. Again, rather ironic given your position on intellectual abilities.

Oh, and I should also point out the hilarity of your argument about evolution selecting for the "elite" athletes. The dirty little secret is that if there is any selection pressure, it is working against them...for both sexes. Infertility and subfertility are serious problems for the elite athlete who has minimal body fat. There's also selection at the other end of the spectrum against those who are morbidly obese in terms of fertility problems. It's the somewhat fit, but still slightly pudgy-in-the-middle people who don't have the diet- and exercise-induced infertility problems. Interestingly, males actually shut down sperm production much more quickly than females shut down ovulation when experiencing things like food deprivation or stress. Now, that makes more sense evolutionarily, because males produce sperm continuously, so if they are deprived of food for a day or two, it's no big loss to conserve the energy and lose a few days of sperm production; there are still a lot there, and they'll just have a few days a month down the road that they are a bit less fertile. On the other hand, females ovulate much less frequently (in rodent species that ovulate only once every 4 days, the females will miss an ovulation if food-deprived only a short time...just one day is enough, as it is with shutting down sperm production in males of those species), so missing an ovulation because of just one day's food shortage would be a huge waste of reproductive potential. The females need to be food deprived or stressed for a much longer period of time before they'll miss an ovulation.

I'd also like to know how running faster makes one a good protector? Again, in terms of evolutionary fitness, the male running away at the sight of a predator doesn't really help the pregnant female much. The female still has to be able to protect herself and her offspring when the male is nowhere to be found (not exactly an uncommon scenario in the animal kingdom).

Monochrome

Jun24-06, 10:25 AM

Men are just as likely to pass their genes on to their daughters as to their sons.

And then you go ahead and talk about the Y chromosome which is only passed from father to son, I am the only one who thinks you just agreed with me despite saying you didn't? Also we are decades away from knowing how the different proteins coded on any gene affect specific areas of the body. So it is equally asinine to assume that the Y chromosome only codes for two things.

You might take note that like many others here, English is not her native language.

My native language is Bulgarian followed by Vlashki, then English and Spanish. Which just reflects on your worldview that everyone here is from the Anglo-Saxon world unless otherwise specified.

That you only know of three women scientists only speaks to your own ignorance of the subject.

You know, you would be completely correct if that is what I said rather than:
Merely look at the lists of prominent scientists

You said:

Oh, and I should also point out the hilarity of your argument about evolution selecting for the "elite" athletes.

Before that I said:

individuals in the male population when matched to their equivocal percentile in the female population will excel at the given criteria by which the comparison is made

I would like to add that this is the case for criteria that relate to competitiveness to attract mates, ie strength, health, brains in males.

Again, in terms of evolutionary fitness, the male running away at the sight of a predator doesn't really help the pregnant female much.

You say it yourself the male survives. He reproduces again, the most successful man in reproductive history (Genghis Khan) wasn't a protector. He was a warlord who was strong, healthy and cunning all positively selected traits. Nor would protectionism be a strategy which would spread genes very far as the protector is likely to die and his offspring along with him. And of course there is the nasty little statistic that one in ten children does not belong to the father who is looking after it.

But again you missed the point about female selection of mates. Until you debunk that any Y chromosome that gives an advantage over others in the population through sexually describable traits - strength, heath, intelligence - will spread while not giving the female any benefit whatsoever. While the reverse would cause an increase in the fitness of the woman's offspring regardless of their sex. Also my point about removing harmful mutations from the Y chromosome twice as fast stands.

Cyrus

Jun24-06, 11:20 AM

Evo, I really didn't expect you to say such a thing base on what a kiddie say. He just wants to draw attention by what he says!:rolleyes: As far as I know our culture is alot more modern than yours.

:rofl: Iran's culture is much older. (Ok, I'm just yanking your chain on that one :wink:). Iran does have a long and old history and culture, that's certainly true. And women were a part of that culture.

Don't care what some dummie are thinking about women because of what they learned from Arabs.

Let's not blame the Arabs for Iran's own choice of actions.

Our woemn were in authority long time ago when in most of countries people didn't consider women as human beings.

Yes, long ago. But not anymore.

You think your culture is modeern and don't have that sorta problem anymore. So go read some of post of kiddies and adults in very this board. What they say about women is more backwarded of what some Iranian think.

Don't compare what some people say on a forum to the general society. Generally speaking, the status of women in Iran is no where near the same as that of women in western society.

Look, let's not kid ourselves, you live in a very repressed society. What do you honestly expect from people living in such conditions? The last time I was in Iran, everyone looked miserable. The cities are underdeveloped and there are alot of poor people. If I didn’t have family there, I wouldn't visit. There's nothing to do there or see, it's a sad sight. (And too many people there are smoking drugs all the time :rolleyes: ).

Why dont you look through this list and then tell me Iranian society is on the same level as the rest of the world....

http://www.wfafi.org/laws.pdf#search='women%20in%20iran'

http://www.wfafi.org/

They don't even let men and women enter through the same door Lisa............... stop kidding yourself.

scott1

Jun24-06, 11:25 AM

26.5 post a day so far this thread more then franzbear:uhh:...

Astronuc

Jun24-06, 11:28 AM

And then you go ahead and talk about the Y chromosome which is only passed from father to son, I am the only one who thinks you just agreed with me despite saying you didn't? Also we are decades away from knowing how the different proteins coded on any gene affect specific areas of the body. So it is equally asinine to assume that the Y chromosome only codes for two things. Men also pass on an X chromosome to their daughters. And Moonbear isn't agreeing with you.

My native language is Bulgarian followed by Vlashki, then English and Spanish. Which just reflects on your worldview that everyone here is from the Anglo-Saxon world unless otherwise specified. Then you should appreciate the sometime difficulty in translation and grammar.

You say it yourself the male survives. He reproduces again, the most successful man in reproductive history (Genghis Khan) wasn't a protector. He was a warlord who was strong, healthy and cunning all positively selected traits. Nor would protectionism be a strategy which would spread genes very far as the protector is likely to die and his offspring along with him. And of course there is the nasty little statistic that one in ten children does not belong to the father who is looking after it. But look where his decendants are today. And then there is an Irish king who may have several million descendants.

Statistically one will find that single women live longer than single men and married men. It would appear that men 'need' women more than women need men. :rolleyes:

Those who think they are superior, are not. :biggrin:

scott1

Jun24-06, 11:31 AM

Bladibla

Jun24-06, 12:21 PM

I think that women can be friendly, and are necessary, but not for 96.8% of the women population.

Lisa!

Jun24-06, 12:38 PM

Unless I missed something, I think Evo was just playing around (we're always looking for an excuse to take the Turbo RV out for a spin). Not a good excuse! Evo is a mentor and she shouldn't let a thread goes off topic especially if the OP doesn't want it. know she was just playing around, but that's not good to join a kiddie and do that. Just because I'm easy going about people's comments through my thread or on me, doesn't mean mentor should let them doing that!

I don't think either culture is more modern than the other, though, I've never been to Iran to experience it first hand. Then again, it's a bit hard to quantify modernness. Nationalism really is very similar to the male/female debate. There are a lot of differences, and it seems somewhat natural for people to feel that the traits they hold or their country holds are the ones that are the best or most important. I really think it comes down to self-confidence. If you're confident enough to know that you're not going to be less of a person if you openly admit that the other sex, or another country, or another culture, etc., also has great qualities, and is as good as you at them, then you see how much more enjoyable life is to stop wasting time on meaningless comparisons (not to mention how much less hostile it would be).Well sorry I never like it whenIranians tend to send cardpostal to themselves and saying things like we had such a great culture we're smart we're ...so you can never blame me on thatsince I always say it's not that important where you used to be, it's important that where you are and where you're going to be. Si

What I meant was that our people have the potential to be a modern country as they used to be and you shouldn't accuse whole Iranian of being backwarded and narrowminded because of a few fanatics. The problem in all cases is that it's always fanactic's voices that's heard by the world:
1. Open minded people never bother to shut them up and they also never do silly actions in order to e heard.
2. well your media wants that voice to be heard by you.

We definitely still have a problem with sexism in the US. I don't think Evo was suggesting otherwise. It has improved quite a lot in the past few decades, but it's still present, especially among the older generation. Though, what's noteworthy, and started to be presented earlier in the thread, but didn't get followed through on, is that as women are gaining a firm foothold in many male-dominated areas, there's a greater tendency of sexism toward men. In other words, if a man says a derogatory remark about women, he'll get cut off and corrected very quickly, but if a woman says a derogatory remark about men, it is very much tolerated still. I almost never hear a guy saying that a woman should do the cleaning anymore, but I still often hear women saying that men aren't any good at it, they can't see dirt, they just make a big mess, they just swish a mop around and think everything is clean, etc. You really can't have it both ways. You can't complain if men tell you cleaning is women's work and complain that men can't do the job. But somehow, people still get away with that. The reality is that there are just as many female slobs as there are male slobs, and just as many men as women who will notice even a speck out of place, or dust in the corners, or who would be disgusted at the idea of using a dirty rag to wipe down the kitchen countertops. I'm sure that problem exists in any country and you can simply get to know that by reading some of poss here. I'm not going to say all people in US must be the same as PFer, but I guess I can say that problem does exist because of some sexist comments. Maybe they're just joking but how on earth they usually don't make jokes in favor of canibalism!

I really hope you don't still think it's a waste of time.I do think that way as long as my threads go off topic here and people just try to make fun of everything all the time!
It's been for a long time that I've got that idea but I still bother posting here because there are some poster here that I find their comments very insightful and helpful. However i'm not gonna waste mt time with some kiddies even because of them!:wink:

Monochrome

Jun24-06, 12:41 PM

Men also pass on an X chromosome to their daughters. And Moonbear isn't agreeing with you.

Gah, I don't know why I can't seem to get this across it all works out nicely. The Y chromosome is only passed from male to male, while the X chromosome is passed randomly from male to male or female. As females are pickier than males when it comes to choosing mates Y chromosomes on average are specifically selected twice as frequently as their accompanying X chromosome for giving a man an advantage over other males when it comes to attracting mates, which in humans mean being stronger, smarter and healthier. The whole population would gain from a beneficial mutation occurs in X while only males would do so from a beneficial mutation in Y which are equally as like to happen. Actually more so since the Y chromosome lacks the ability to repair itself. Also because of this higher screening any negative mutation in Y is removed quicker due to mate selection by females and/or inability to reproduce.

But look where his decendants are today.

Everywhere from China to Hungary?

And then there is an Irish king who may have several million descendants.

Another prodigal reproducer, do you not think that he has influenced the gene pool to a much greater extent than one following the strategy of guarding ones children?

Those who think they are superior, are not.

Superior is a human concept, I am talking about a gene which by the way it is selected must give extra benefits to those who have it. It just happens that in a capitalist society those who possess it are rewarded greatly. Much the same way as those who possessed the genes for blue eyes were rewarded by previous societies.

Lisa!

Jun24-06, 01:12 PM

Well cyrus I just didn't want to reply to any of your posts, since I guess the only point of your posts is botheringsome of the people around and making jokes, but well I do it for the last time anyway. I mean if you're going to be that way, I'll just ignore you like all people who I just don't care about their comments and prefer to ignnore. 1st of all it's sorta narrowmindedness to think all things I'm cooncerned about is because of where I live and sometimes I find your comments as backwarded as uneducated people who I don't usually face them in real life but I know enough of them. I guess you just play thatrole deliberately but that doean't change anything. and no don't take what I said as an insult!

:rofl: Iran's culture is much older. (Ok, I'm just yanking your chain on that one :wink:). Iran does have a long and old history and culture, that's certainly true. And women were a part of that culture.
And they still can be...

Let's not blame the Arabs for Iran's own choice of actions. Not going to blame anyone for others' actions, however you have to admit that that's been a very important role on our current situation.

Yes, long ago. But not anymore. We're doing our best to take that greatness bac. Well I guess this kinda help and support of Iranian decade living in western country is very heartworming!:rolleyes:

Don't compare what some people say on a forum to the general society. Generally speaking, the status of women in Iran is no where near the same as that of women in western society. Ya, that's right. Since I have to put on skarf in public I'm missing alot. Well I guess when I travel to western country again I have to give uo my scraf since Muslims known as terrorists there!:rolleyes: well I do admit lots of attempts have been done in western countries to support women's rights, but however I think they're falling from the other side of wall. I mean somehoe they're violating men's rights. I think women in Iran are going to have a better situation than before, but the problem in most cases is THEMSELVES. We shouldn't expect men to fight for our rights we should do it ourselves. Anyhow I grow up in a very bright family and sorta haven't experiensed the majority of problems an Iranian woman can have in Iran!

Look, let's not kid ourselves, you live in a very repressed society. What do you honestly expect from people living in such conditions? The important thing is the way I consider the world's issues although I live in a repressed country and even a person who lives in a modern country might not have that view.

The last time I was in Iran, everyone looked miserable. The cities are underdeveloped and there are alot of poor people. If I didn’t have family there, I wouldn't visit. There's nothing to do there or see, it's a sad sight. (And too many people there are smoking drugs all the time :rolleyes: ).Well I don't know how many years ago did you travel there.

Why dont you look through this list and then tell me Iranian society is on the same level as the rest of the world.... I never said that!

They don't even let men and women enter through the same door Lisa............... stop kidding yourself.And you stop going off topic. People here admit that sexism does exist in western even if it doesn't people here can help me know how to get rid of that. But the whole points of your posts seems to make me angry. what did you want to do if I hadn't told you about my nationality? And also I didn't want you to speak about my nationality in almost very thread since I know people would simply think the way you do! most of people don't bother thinking on a topic deeply they simply like to generalze, or judge people's not ideas. They've made up their mind before the discussion and that's what I call narrowmindedness!

Evo

Jun24-06, 01:20 PM

Not a good excuse! Evo is a mentor and she shouldn't let a thread goes off topic especially if the OP doesn't want it. know she was just playing around, but that's not good to join a kiddie and do that. Just because I'm easy going about people's comments through my thread or on me, doesn't mean mentor should let them doing that!I was just trying to cheer you up. kiddie=cyrus? You're mad at cyrus?

Danger

Jun24-06, 01:25 PM

what did you want to do if I hadn't told you about my nationality?
I meant to ask you about that. You told me that it wasn't to be mentioned in public. When did you 'out' yourself? :confused:

Math Is Hard

Jun24-06, 01:26 PM

I was just trying to cheer you up. kiddie=cyrus? You're mad at cyrus?
Me, too, Lisa! I was just trying to lighten things up. Sorry if I made you mad.:redface:
However, I don't think Cyrus was really off-topic when he suggested that your perspective is somewhat influenced by your environment. Isn't that the case for all of us?

Cyrus

Jun24-06, 01:33 PM

I was just trying to cheer you up. kiddie=cyrus? You're mad at cyrus?

Iranians show their love through hate :rolleyes: :rofl:

Lisa!

Jun24-06, 01:44 PM

I was just trying to cheer you up. Thanks! I guess I was too hatsh on that but that's because I wanted to have serious discussion and no I wasn't depressed at all. I hope you don't get offended by what I said but that was very unexpected for me that somehow your post was sorta in agreement with cyrus. I mean we only try to save people from a bad situation.

kiddie=cyrus? You're mad at cyrus?Not mad at him. I just don't like him posting through my threads and makees my threads off topic. I tried to ignore him this time and I expected other helping me not leeting thhis thread go off topic
I meant to ask you about that. You told me that it wasn't to be mentioned in public. When did you 'out' yourself? :confused: I just let others know I speak persian long time ago! Well I knew I'd have this sorta problems through my threads by revealing that!

Me, too, Lisa! I was just trying to lighten things up. Sorry if I made you mad. I apologize as well. Today I was too tired and too irritable. You know when I'm tired I just get angry at people for any silly reason like saying hello to me.
However, I don't think Cyrus was really off-topic when he suggested that your perspective is somewhat influenced by your environment. Isn't that the case for all of us?
That depends what you mean by environment. I told you I still have to know about the problem of women in Iran. Most of women's rights here are violated by their families and in some cases it depends on which city you live.
His post is off topic IMP, because I get from his tone that he just wants to annoy me.(he wasn't successful till the saving me from Iran case) Honestly I don't think he wanted to help here.

darius

Jun24-06, 01:50 PM

When it comes to Math and Physics so far, men do rule, although women have made contributions. The question is not whether women can do Math and Physics, but rather do they want to? Perhaps they have other priorities than sitting around solving Math problems. There is always a man to do that. Who could blame them?

Math Is Hard

Jun24-06, 02:06 PM

When it comes to Physics and Mathematics, men do rule, although women have made contributions. It is not that women cannot make great contributions, but rather do they really want to?
It hasn't been all that long that women have even been allowed to make contributions. For a very long time, universities were very resistant to the idea of admitting women. How could a woman gain the necessary knowledge and credentials to contribute without an education?

Perhaps they have better things to do. And what is wrong with being pampered? Heck, nothing. I never met a man or a woman who didn't enjoy that!:smile:

I do not blame them for not wanting to sit around solving math problems when they have other priorities.
The women I work with are all programmers who spend most of their time developing financial systems. Essentially, they sit around solving math problems all day because it is their priority. And because they enjoy it.

Aether

Jun24-06, 02:23 PM

what did you want to do if I hadn't told you about my nationality? And also I didn't want you to speak about my nationality in almost very thread since I know people would simply think the way you do!I didn't know your nationality before this. I think that having you here at PF is even more special than before. :smile:

SpaceTiger

Jun24-06, 02:49 PM

So why is that men and women never grow up to stop being sexist and opposing each other? I mean they're always making bad jokes about each other and try to prove their superiority.

In my experience, true sexism is usually not so overt. The male/female superiority jokes are usually just that, jokes. To see the real sexism inherent in our society, just watch the way men and women are portrayed on television. Alkatran noted:

TV tells me women are smarter, stronger, faster, and prettier. When was the last time you saw a commercial where a guy showed-up a girl?

There's truth to it, but why? Is it sexism favoring women? No, in fact, I think it's the opposite. On television, it's much more acceptable for the weak to beat up on the strong. For the same reason that you seldom see a human beating up on a dog or cat, you'll seldom see a man beating up (or even showing up) a woman.

I don't think this perception comes from television, I think it's already ingrained in our society. I see it every day at work. Even in science, most women I see are more submissive and soft-spoken in conversation (even if not in their publishing record) and I think this could make it difficult for them compete for some jobs. It seems like women are subconciously viewed as weaker and are cultured to reinforce this perception.

If true, is it a problem? After all, some of these traits that set women at a disadvantage in the workplace could be said to be more desirable. Empathy? Open-mindedness? Tact? Is it so bad to have those qualities? Do we really want a society full of people optimized to become CEOs?

I've to meet someone who really thinks men and women are equal. It seems to me that most of them think "well, let women to have the same rights but at the end it's us guys who rule the world."

It's not a gender that rules the world, but rather, I think, a set of personality types. It just happens that in politics and business, those qualities that are typically "male" (whether by culture or biology) are more advantageous. On the other hand, look at, say, pop music. The pop "diva" is a very powerful figurehead and has qualities that are very difficult to reproduce in a man.

Moonbear

Jun24-06, 04:36 PM

Gah, I don't know why I can't seem to get this across it all works out nicely. The Y chromosome is only passed from male to male, while the X chromosome is passed randomly from male to male or female.
Uh....nope. The male's Y chromosome is passed to his sons, and his X chromosome to his daughters. Each woman has two X chromosomes, one from her mother and one from her father, and there's an equal chance of either being passed on to either daughters or sons. And then there are all the rest of the chromosomes that don't matter which gender you are. Since we all have brains and muscles, those aren't coded for on the Y chromosome.

As females are pickier than males when it comes to choosing mates Y chromosomes on average are specifically selected twice as frequently as their accompanying X chromosome for giving a man an advantage over other males when it comes to attracting mates, which in humans mean being stronger, smarter and healthier.
You're making no sense at all there.

The whole population would gain from a beneficial mutation occurs in X while only males would do so from a beneficial mutation in Y which are equally as like to happen.
Only if that particular X chromosome is passed to the next generation. If the mutation is on the father's X-chromosome and he only has sons, it's not passed to anyone.

Actually more so since the Y chromosome lacks the ability to repair itself.
Where do you get that notion from?

Also because of this higher screening any negative mutation in Y is removed quicker due to mate selection by females and/or inability to reproduce.
If it is something that affects reproduction and/or produces an obvious phenotype, maybe. But, there are Y-linked diseases that are passed along, so this is not fool-proof.

And in response to your earlier post, there are more than three PROMINENT female scientists throughout history. When people like you choose to ignore their contributions, it doesn't make their contributions any less important.

Moonbear

Jun24-06, 04:46 PM

Those who think they are superior, are not. :biggrin:
Generally, they are the ones who fail to see their own flaws. That, or they selectively weight their attributes as more important characteristics than those that are their weaknesses.

Cyrus

Jun24-06, 05:07 PM

Ya, that's right. Since I have to put on skarf in public I'm missing alot. Well I guess when I travel to western country again I have to give uo my scraf since Muslims known as terrorists there!

That's not true, you are free to choose if you want to wear it or not in the west. (Except for schools in france, but then again their french what do you expect from them :tongue2:)

well I do admit lots of attempts have been done in western countries to support women's rights, but however I think they're falling from the other side of wall. I mean somehoe they're violating men's rights.

Nope. They are not attempts, they are successes that have given women equality. Hell, we have women CEO's, Actresses, politicians, doctors, lawyers, astronauts, airline pilots, generals, the list goes on and on lisa.......

As a man, I can tell you that I still have all my rights and then some.

I think women in Iran are going to have a better situation than before, but the problem in most cases is THEMSELVES. We shouldn't expect men to fight for our rights we should do it ourselves. Anyhow I grow up in a very bright family and sorta haven't experiensed the majority of problems an Iranian woman can have in Iran!

And I think Iran has gone only backwards in the last 30 years, not forwards. How the hell does a country that is so rich in natural resources have such a poor population? Ans: Corruption. (Frankly, religious corruption.)....yes and the cost of a 10 year war, I recognize that. But you know what I'm saying.

The important thing is the way I consider the world's issues although I live in a repressed country and even a person who lives in a modern country might not have that view.

That's just it. I'm very doubtful you are getting the true world's view. I think you are getting spin by press controlled by the Mullahs.

stop going off topic. People here admit that sexism does exist in western even if it doesn't people here can help me know how to get rid of that.

Lisa, please be careful about what you say. If you want to get rid of sexism in Iran, you are playing with fire. In fact, I would caution you to be careful about what you do say online, because the government might be monitoring you. I remember when I was there it was illegal to have a satellite TV because they did not want the people to have access to media that was not controlled by the government.

But the whole points of your posts seems to make me angry.

Because it's a sad and angering truth that I'm telling you and deep down you know its true.

what did you want to do if I hadn't told you about my nationality? And also I didn't want you to speak about my nationality in almost very thread since I know people would simply think the way you do!

Sorry, you never told me that. If the give you a hard time let me know, I'll take care of em for you :devil: :biggrin:.

Sadly, I don't see Iran maturing politically. They are right back to 1979 with the new president. I mean honestly, do the people sit down and listen to this guy spout his mouth off and just nod their heads in approval?

Have they lost their common sense? Maybe they should go back to history and read up on Cyrus the great, the persian king that freed the jews..... :rolleyes:

I think the problem is more than just sexism, it's a culture too lazy to stand up and change things for the better in general.

Tyris

Jun25-06, 05:26 AM

Another interesting point is history; his-story.And that is why all folk etymologists should be shot on sight. The term history comes from the Greek "ιστορία" (historia), "an account of one's inquiries."

Since we all have brains and muscles, those aren't coded for on the Y chromosome.You realise of course that we all have 23 pairs of chromosomes, and different parts of brains and muscles are likely to be coded for on more than one each.

Anyway, I don't think I'm superior to women. Or rather, I do... but I think I'm superior to men as well, by virtue of being me. Me>you, until proven otherwise.
Personally, I'm going to do away with the need for gender by growing a baby at the end of my arm, like a strawberry plant.

Moonbear

Jun25-06, 08:47 AM

You realise of course that we all have 23 pairs of chromosomes, and different parts of brains and muscles are likely to be coded for on more than one each.
Yes, and that's precisely the point. Just the Y-chromosome isn't determining everything. Actually, there are a few forms of muscular dystrophy that are X-linked recessive traits, which just helps emphasize that the Y-chromosome isn't the source of all muscle and brain development that Monochrome seems to believe it is.

Anyway, I don't think I'm superior to women. Or rather, I do... but I think I'm superior to men as well, by virtue of being me. Me>you, until proven otherwise.
As long as you're not being sexist in your superiority complex. :biggrin: :rofl:
Personally, I'm going to do away with the need for gender by growing a baby at the end of my arm, like a strawberry plant.
Sure, take all the fun out of it. :rolleyes: But your joke makes a good point...that's the really silly thing about all the sexist stuff...reproducing still requires both sexes. One can argue superiority of one over the other all day long, but in the end, if they can't count on the other sex being around, they're not going to pass their genes to the next generation.

Lisa!

Jun28-06, 09:37 AM

That's not true, you are free to choose if you want to wear it or not in the west. (Except for schools in france, but then again their french what do you expect from them :tongue2:)I meant I can't waer scraf because I don't feel secure and I don't want to be considered as backwarded and opresses person! :rolleyes:

Nope. They are not attempts, they are successes that have given women equality. Hell, we have women CEO's, Actresses, politicians, doctors, lawyers, astronauts, airline pilots, generals, the list goes on and on lisa.......Here we also have them other than singer, dancer and pilots! Anyway I also can move to a western country and proudly brag about other's sucesses just like you!:rolleyes: well thatsounds fine to me since I just don't care about those facts like nationality that I've not chosen by myself!:zzz:

As a man, I can tell you that I still have all my rights and then some.As a woman I can tell you men have more difficult situation in Iran than women!

And I think Iran has gone only backwards in the last 30 years, not forwards. How the hell does a country that is so rich in natural resources have such a poor population? Ans: Corruption. (Frankly, religious corruption.)....yes and the cost of a 10 year war, I recognize that. But you know what I'm saying. somehow yes! But it wasn't going backwarded whole that 30 years and also I am still in doubt that the situation was any better before that revolution...

That's just it. I'm very doubtful you are getting the true world's view. I think you are getting spin by press controlled by the Mullahs.:rofl: :rofl: How can I be brainwashed by them when I don't listen only to our media and most of the time get the news from net and BBC?
Go read some of your pots in P&WA forum and see how you get pissed off when you're discussing Islam with PF'ers, te riligion that I'm in doubt that you even follow its rules!

Lisa, please be careful about what you say. If you want to get rid of sexism in Iran, you are playing with fire. In fact, I would caution you to be careful about what you do say online, because the government might be monitoring you. I remember when I was there it was illegal to have a satellite TV because they did not want the people to have access to media that was not controlled by the government. It's still illegal and many people have that! Well and most of those people just watch silly TV shows not News or science programs...:tongue2:
Thank you for your concerns anyway...o:)

Because it's a sad and angering truth that I'm telling you and deep down you know its true.
:rofl: :rofl: Now let's listen to some of those deep down truth:
If you are not happy, I can arrange a marriage for you Lisa! Why are you not yet arranged to be wed? Something must be wrong with you. Are you really that ugly? You shuold have 7-10 kids by now.
(
http://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=1007636&postcount=7)
Yes, being Iranian is a disease...............damn Iranians (http://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=993134&postcount=13)

Honestly cyrus, I think you seem traped in this thread, since you didn't expect your silly jokes get such a reaction from me! See I agree wit some of your points but the problem is that you're just going on this discussion to prov you weren't ironic or just making silly jokes! And boy if you really wanted to make points in thsi thread I have to say there must be something wrong with you since no decent person won't make jokes or blame somone on not pleasing thing in her/his life that are out of that person's hand...:wink:

Sorry, you never told me that. If the give you a hard time let me know, I'll take care of em for you :devil: :biggrin:. I just don't like you to draw attention of those narrowminded people to my nationality instadof the topic of my thread. Anyway decent people tend to keep what they're told in private, confidential!
Here I can address a number of threads full of sexist comments mabe by noniranian but then again you just want to narrow the problem of sexim to my country!

I think the problem is more than just sexism, it's a culture too lazy to stand up and change things for the better in general.Yeah, they're too lazy. they think they should sit back and only crtisize and blame others. some of them prefer to move abroad and well most of the time they just try to disappoint the rest who're going to do something about that!:bugeye:
As why people just keep quiet right now? well simple! western countries' threats just make Iranians to support their centralgovrnment more than before since they're not going to experince another war and some foriegners in their country. True or fals thatbthe wat they feel it must be true. Sometimes I think the whole story of Nuclear Iran is a scenario written by some of powerful countries and mullahs to reinforce the cenral government of Iran!:confused:

Lisa!

Jun28-06, 09:40 AM

I didn't know your nationality before this. I think that having you here at PF is even more special than before. :smile:Very nice of you! :smile: You know I just wanted to be considered as a ordinary human beings not a opressed barinwashed Iranian girl...

Astronuc

Jun28-06, 10:14 AM

Well and most of those people just watch silly TV shows not News or science programs... Same problem in the west.

Cyrus

Jun28-06, 10:19 AM

I meant I can't waer scraf because I don't feel secure and I don't want to be considered as backwarded and opresses person! :rolleyes:

Ok, I can see your point on that one. Some people are still narrow minded and will give you bad looks, but that does not negate the fact that you have a choice to wear the scarf or not.

Here we also have them other than singer, dancer and pilots! Anyway I also can move to a western country and proudly brag about other's sucesses just like you!:rolleyes: well thatsounds fine to me since I just don't care about those facts like nationality that I've not chosen by myself!:zzz:

Well, why can't women be a singer, dancer or pilot in Iran??

I never moved to a western country to brag about other's sucesses, I was born here Lisa.

As a woman I can tell you men have more difficult situation in Iran than women!

Maybe you do, but that's not true here in the States. So you can't apply the problem men face in Iran to the men in the US.

somehow yes! But it wasn't going backwarded whole that 30 years and also I am still in doubt that the situation was any better before that revolution...

At least there were no sanctions, the military was strong, and the country was not run by religious zealots.

:rofl: :rofl: How can I be brainwashed by them when I don't listen only to our media and most of the time get the news from net and BBC?
Go read some of your pots in P&WA forum and see how you get pissed off when you're discussing Islam with PF'ers, te riligion that I'm in doubt that you even follow its rules!

I discuss Islam because the media does a horrible job of getting their facts straight. For the most part, the United States is uneducated on Islam, but I can't blame them. All they get is misrepresentation from FOX news :yuck:. But why should I follow Islams rules, I never said I was muslim.

Answer:

It's (satellite television) still illegal and many people have that! Well and most of those people just watch silly TV shows not News or science programs...:tongue2: Thank you for your concerns anyway...o:)

You answered your own question Lisa.

:rofl: :rofl: Now let's listen to some of those deep down truth:
If you are not happy, I can arrange a marriage for you Lisa! Why are you not yet arranged to be wed? Something must be wrong with you. Are you really that ugly? You shuold have 7-10 kids by now.
(
http://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=1007636&postcount=7)
Yes, being Iranian is a disease...............damn Iranians (http://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=993134&postcount=13)
:rofl: :rofl: That was me teasing you Lisa :rofl: :rofl:

Still looking for a husband? I'll marry you :biggrin: :rofl: !!

I just don't like you to draw attention of those narrowminded people to my nationality instadof the topic of my thread. Anyway decent people tend to keep what they're told in private, confidential!
Here I can address a number of threads full of sexist comments mabe by noniranian but then again you just want to narrow the problem of sexim to my country!

Because, in your situtaion sexism is a MUCH bigger problem than in the west. If people do not know where you are coming from, they (like myself) would say what the heck are you talking about? I can honestly say that I hardly ever see people make a big deal about sex at either work or school. For the most part, people have learned to deal with it and move on.

Yeah, they're too lazy. they think they should sit back and only crtisize and blame others. some of them prefer to move abroad and well most of the time they just try to disappoint the rest who're going to do something about that!:bugeye:

Wrong, my family moved here before the revolution took place.

As why people just keep quiet right now? well simple! western countries' threats just make Iranians to support their centralgovrnment more than before since they're not going to experince another war and some foriegners in their country. True or fals thatbthe wat they feel it must be true. Sometimes I think the whole story of Nuclear Iran is a scenario written by some of powerful countries and mullahs to reinforce the cenral government of Iran!:confused:

That's lame. Come on lisa, all you have to do is listen to some of the stupid stuff that comes out of the president of Iran's mouth to realize why the west isn't too happy with him. That's no reason for them to rally behind the guy that's putting them into trouble in the first place! :rolleyes:

Lisa!

Jun28-06, 11:07 AM

Ok, I can see your point on that one. Some people are still narrow minded and will give you bad looks, but that does not negate the fact that you have a choice to wear the scarf or not. Ya, but I still can't sayI have freewil there. See I am not supporting central government on forcing people to waer scraf... Reza Shah wanted to force women cover off and the're forcing them to cover, NON woul;d be successful so far. When they make such a big deal on personal freedom like cover, they cause more damage. Don't care to explain how...:zzz:

Well, why can't women be a singer, dancer or pilot in Iran??I'm not sure about pilots perhaps we have. But we also don't have male dancer. The reason seem obvious on dancer and singer case...

I never moved to a western country to brag about other's sucesses, I was born here Lisa. I don't care about your case! I meant I also can mov there and be in the same situation as yours. And ya I know you were born there since you cant speak persian..

Maybe you do, but that's not true here in the States. So you can't apply the problem men face in Iran to the men in the US. I was not applying that. I jsut wanted to say it's not true that pople always think women are the victims of sexism here...

At least there were no sanctions, the military was strong, and the country was not run by religious zealots.Sorta seems naive to me. I still thinkthe situarion was as bad as now. I just can say well at least lots of people didn't die during a war and we could have the latest technoogy in the world... But still not enough and saticfying..

I discuss Islam because the media does a horrible job of getting their facts straight. For the most part, the United States is uneducated on Islam, but I can't blame them. All they get is misrepresentation from FOX news :yuck:.Aha! I usually don't get angry at poeple's comments here since I know they're brainwashed in some cases. BUT how can we make sure that's not the same about sexim problem in Iran and Iran situation?

But why should I follow Islams rules, I never said I was muslim. And I guess you are not! But it's strang wehn you get pissed off coz of that. well I just don't insult people when people have a wrong view on things that I don't care about that much...

You answered your own question Lisa. which question?:confused:

:rofl: :rofl: That was me teasing you Lisa :rofl: :rofl: That's what you want to do even through this thread!:rolleyes:

Still looking for a husband? NOT looking for 1 sinc they're around if I want. I just prefer to decid instead of them and simply reject them since I don't want to tell them I'm sufferng MS. well that was my 20th birthday present!:tongue:

I'll marry you :biggrin: :rofl: !! :rofl: :yuck: I don't like kiddies since they're immature!:tongue2:

Because, in your situtaion sexism is a MUCH bigger problem than in the west. If people do not know where you are coming from, they (like myself) would say what the heck are you talking about? Nobody say that since I was mostly talking about those awful joks and stuff like that. Seems to me you didn't read the OP..And from what I get of PF'ers those jokes and battle sexism Does exist, ok?

I can honestly say that I hardly ever see people make a big deal about sex at either work or school. For the most part, people have learned to deal with it and move on.
Well here's getting almost t same way. NOT quite like west , hehe boys are getting cuter and mor stylish than women...:tongue2:

Wrong, my family moved here before the revolution took place. why do youthink it's only about you? It's not! and well anyway somehow you canreflect your families' views as well...

That's lame. Come on lisa, all you have to do is listen to some of the stupid stuff that comes out of the president of Iran's mouth to realize why the west isn't too happy with him. That's no reason for them to rally behind the guy that's putting them into trouble in the first place! :rolleyes:He only talks and isn't going to act base on that, don't you realize that? I still like my conspiracy theory.:tongue2:

wolram

Jun28-06, 02:20 PM

Flirtation alert

Astronuc

Jun28-06, 03:08 PM

. . . all you have to do is listen to some of the stupid stuff that comes out of the president of Iran's mouth to realize why the west isn't too happy with him. That's no reason for them to rally behind the guy that's putting them into trouble in the first place! One could say the same thing about the current US president. :biggrin:

Smurf

Jun28-06, 03:22 PM

Very nice of you! :smile: You know I just wanted to be considered as a ordinary human beings not a opressed barinwashed Iranian girl...
if its worth anything, i've always thought of you as opressed and brainwashed !

Cyrus

Jun28-06, 03:57 PM

One could say the same thing about the current US president. :biggrin:

That's why his poll numbers are on the constant decline. :devil:

NOT looking for 1 sinc they're around if I want. I just prefer to decid instead of them and simply reject them since I don't want to tell them I'm sufferng MS. well that was my 20th birthday present!

I'm sorry to hear that Lisa :frown:

I don't like kiddies since they're immature!

Oh, I think you are in love with me, admit it woman! :biggrin:

Irresistible_Force

Jun28-06, 05:36 PM

So why is that men and women never grow up to stop being sexist and opposing each other? I mean they're always making bad jokes about each other and try to prove their superiority. That's pretty annoying and childish.:rolleyes: I've to meet someone who really thinks men and women are equal. It seems to me that most of them think "well, let women to have the same rights but at the end it's us guys who rule the world." It just drives me nuts when I see men think they should take care of women and they're cleverer and stronger than women.
Am I just roverrating things because of what happened to me today or the situation is really the way I experessed?:devil: :grumpy:
Will you buy your daughter blue jeans and war toys?
Will you buy your son tu-tus and baby dolls?
If you perpetuate the cultural norms then you can't help but imprint these
very qualities and differences on your own children. Thus being programmed
to behave as a boy, or a girl, they will grow up and always
be aware of this schizm.
The only cure then, would be to raise gender neutral
children, otherwise they would only grow up to try to ignore the
difference out of politeness, not really solving your problem.
Would you not feel uncomfortable with this not-normal child in front of
his/her (great or )grandmother/father or your peers?
Wouldn't it be unfair to the child, not giving them the opportunity
to be normal?

Don't you want normal children?

Curious3141

Jun28-06, 07:19 PM

Here we also have them other than singer, dancer and pilots!

On the topic of doctors (male and female), I wonder if you could clarify something for me, Lisa. In Iran, is a doctor allowed to examine a patient of the opposite sex? (Male doctor/female patient and vice versa). Just something I've always been curious about.

Astronuc

Jun28-06, 08:16 PM

Oh, I think you are in love with me, admit it woman! :biggrin: Actually, Lisa!, you might be impressed with Cyrus if you met him. Having met him in person myself, he is quite intelligent, thoughtful, handsome and very polite - he has the makings of good man. :cool:

Lisa!

Jun29-06, 12:30 AM

if its worth anything, i've always thought of you as opressed and brainwashed ! Oh dear God! THe numbrof kidies increase during the summer...
Anyway, you still ow me 1, remember?:wink:

On the topic of doctors (male and female), I wonder if you could clarify something for me, Lisa. In Iran, is a doctor allowed to examine a patient of the opposite sex? (Male doctor/female patient and vice versa). Just something I've always been curious about.
Of course they do! Most of our best doctors are males and most of people even religious 1 prefer to be visited by them. Right now it's mostly women who are prefered to study women diseases at universities but it's ok to visit a male doctor even for that stuff. The doctors feel free to act like docs in your contries. You know what I mean, patients need more attention. Crazy docs, some of them even pinch their patint cheek.

Oh, I think you are in love with me, admit it woman! :rofl: :zzz: :rofl: :zzz:
I've heard that some Iranian guys tease the girl they love but I always thought that's a joke...:uhh:

Actually, Lisa!, you might be impressed with Cyrus if you met him. Having met him in person myself, he is quite intelligent, thoughtful, handsome and very polite - he has the makings of good man. That's nice of you to see him nice. I'm sure guys from Shiraz aren't handsome at all.:tongue:

Danger

Jun29-06, 12:42 AM

he is quite intelligent, thoughtful, handsome and very polite - he has the makings of good man. :cool:
And he likes Roadrunners, so he can't be all bad. :biggrin:

wolram

Jun29-06, 01:02 AM

And he likes Roadrunners, so he can't be all bad. :biggrin:

And do not forget aeroplanes and motorbikes, he can not be all bad :biggrin:

wolram

Jun29-06, 01:12 AM

Hey Lisa, how about visiting England, i have a spare room, so lodging will not cost you, and the best thing is i am hardly ever at home at night, and you could visit S on Avon, get a taste of us westerners, the only thing i ask in return for your board and lodgings is that you water my new flower boxes.

Curious3141

Jun29-06, 07:39 AM

Of course they do! Most of our best doctors are males and most of people even religious 1 prefer to be visited by them. Right now it's mostly women who are prefered to study women diseases at universities but it's ok to visit a male doctor even for that stuff. The doctors feel free to act like docs in your contries. You know what I mean, patients need more attention.

Thanks for the clarification. :smile: Goes to show how we can make unfounded assumptions about a country, only to be proven wrong by a person with real experience. o:)

Crazy docs, some of them even pinch their patint cheek.

Err.. depending on exactly which cheek you pinch, you can get into loads of trouble for that. :tongue2:

Lisa!

Jun29-06, 01:53 PM

Thanks for the clarification. :smile: Goes to show how we can make unfounded assumptions about a country, only to be proven wrong by a person with real experience. o:) That's why I hang around here and wanna know people here better. I admit that my opinions on western people have changed alot.

Err.. depending on exactly which cheek you pinch, you can get into loads of trouble for that. :tongue2:
:uhh: :blushing:

marlon

Jun30-06, 05:36 PM

So why is that men and women never grow up to stop being sexist and opposing each other? I mean they're always making bad jokes about each other and try to prove their superiority.

Ohh, what do you care about that. C'mon, there are much more interesting things to be explored you know. Go explore boys, in stead of sittin' behind some PC askin' questions like this.

That's pretty annoying and childish.:rolleyes:

"CHILDISH" ??? Well, maybe that's just what we are all about ? I mean if all males and females exhiobit this quality ? What is the problem here ?

No point in wondering about this...Just sit back, relax and enjoy...

marlon

Evo

Jun30-06, 07:16 PM

Great article on the differences between genders.

Here's something to chew on.

"And it's not true for green spoon worms. This animal, which lives on the sea floor, has one of the largest known size differences between male and female: the male is 200,000 times smaller. He spends his whole life in her reproductive tract, fertilizing eggs by regurgitating sperm through his mouth. He's so different from his mate that when he was first discovered by science, he was not recognized as being a green spoon worm; instead, he was thought to be a parasite."

The magnificent difference between male and female green spoon worms, for example, has nothing to do with their having different genes: each green spoon worm larva could go either way. Which sex it becomes depends on whether it meets a female during its first three weeks of life. If it meets a female, it becomes male and prepares to regurgitate; if it doesn't, it becomes female and settles into a crack on the sea floor."

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/23/opinion/23judson.html?ex=1264222800&en=70bf9e1f375fce4c&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland

Astronuc

Jun30-06, 08:46 PM

Something to consider:
The male praying mantis cannot copulate while its head is attached to its body. The female initiates sex by ripping the male's head off. My daughter sent this to me. :tongue:

Moonbear

Jun30-06, 08:47 PM

Will you buy your daughter blue jeans and war toys?
Will you buy your son tu-tus and baby dolls?
If you perpetuate the cultural norms then you can't help but imprint these
very qualities and differences on your own children. Thus being programmed
to behave as a boy, or a girl, they will grow up and always
be aware of this schizm.
The only cure then, would be to raise gender neutral
children, otherwise they would only grow up to try to ignore the
difference out of politeness, not really solving your problem.
Would you not feel uncomfortable with this not-normal child in front of
his/her (great or )grandmother/father or your peers?
Wouldn't it be unfair to the child, not giving them the opportunity
to be normal?

Don't you want normal children?
War toys and tu-tus are required for having normal children? :rolleyes:

Blue jeans are hardly for just one gender or the other anymore. So, yep, whether I have a boy or a girl, they'll probably wear them. If they wish to play with baby dolls, they can have those too, same with "war toys" (I guess you mean like toy soldiers and little tanks and stuff).

Why would you think it's not normal if a girl plays with "war toys"? I had toy guns as a kid, and balls and bats and all that fun stuff, and wore blue jeans, and helped my dad build stuff. I definitely did not wear tutus. :yuck: Though, I did also play with dolls (and popped their arms and legs off and was the "surgeon" that fixed them again...not exactly "nurturing" but I did some of that too...my cousins and I even smeared pumpkin pie in a diaper and stuck it on another cousin's Cabbage Patch Doll and told her the diaper needed changing :biggrin:). It's the attitude that this is somehow not normal that is the problem. :rolleyes: