View Full Version : [SOLVED] What's wrong in Israel...
The role of the far right in Israel came up in an earlier thread, and I just saw this related bit in the news -- I think it's fairly illustrative.
The Israeli Tourism Minister, Benny Elon, is in Washington this week opposing the roadmap. His preferred plan is for Israel to annex the West Bank and Gaza Strip and "transfer" the Palestinians to Jordan. "Transfer" is the far right's preferred euphemism for ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians via forcible expulsion, otherwise known as "genocide."
Now, this is not Sharon's position; it is rather a deliberate attempt to undermine it. And no one in the upper echelons of the Bush administration is giving Elon the time of day. But the point is, despite the admirable fact that the Israeli government is not letting these wackos dictate major policy, there are a significant number of them in Israel, with a bunch of Knesset seats and even Cabinet-level positions. While they don't get their say on serious issues, they do wield disproportionate influence on less visible ones, like settlement funding for example, which can have a significant effect over the long run.
I'm not sure what my point is exactly, I suppose I just think these are important things for those who are quick to blame one "side" or the other for a complex conflict to think about.
This is a really good background article, below.
http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=289375&contrassID=2&subContrassID=5&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y
http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=289389&contrassID=2&subContrassID=1&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=42869
Let's not forget, either, the growing number of Israelis who are pro-Palestine. It IS a complex issue.
<cheerleading mode>
http://www.peacenow.org.il/English.asp
http://www.peacenow.org/
</>
Originally posted by damgo
But the point is, despite the admirable fact
that the Israeli government is not letting
these wackos dictate major policy, there are
a significant number of them in Israel, with
a bunch of Knesset seats and even Cabinet-level
positions. While they don't get their say on
serious issues, they do wield disproportionate
influence on less visible ones, like settlement
funding for example, which can have a significant
effect over the long run.
Hate is rarely one sided. What you discribe
is simply the price of democracy.
Live long and prosper.
If the Palestinians were prepared to accept a scrap of desert in Jordan, Saudi Arabia or Egypt, it would make everybody's life easier (except their own). Remember, the zionists were offered a bit of Uganda back in the day before they returned to Palestine. If they had accepted the Uganda deal, history would be very different.
Zionists to Uganda (http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/Zionism/Uganda.html)
Originally posted by N_Quire
If the Palestinians were prepared to accept a scrap of desert in Jordan, Saudi Arabia or Egypt, it would make everybody's life easier (except their own). Remember, the zionists were offered a bit of Uganda back in the day before they returned to Palestine. If they had accepted the Uganda deal, history would be very different.
Zionists to Uganda (http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/Zionism/Uganda.html)
So, basically, if Palestinians were willing to settle for having next to nothing, and Israel had to sacrifice nothing, there would be peace tomorrow? I can't imagine why they haven't jumped on teh deal!!
It's a standard zionist argument, ie let the Arabs give the Palestinians a scrap of land they can call their homeland. Trouble is, the real Palestinian homeland and the jewish one are the same place. Israel must compromise or we'll get nowhere.
Originally posted by N_Quire
It's a standard zionist argument, ie let the Arabs give the Palestinians a scrap of land they can call their homeland. Trouble is, the real Palestinian homeland and the jewish one are the same place. Israel must compromise or we'll get nowhere.
When both groups have a history in the area that dates back thousands of years, the idea of who was there first seems a bit silly, don't you think?
Ah but, we are forgetting the zionist trump card: they are god's chosen people in god's chosen location and, in the zionists' own words, the Palestinians are vermin and worthless scum. If you have the big bearded guy in the sky on your side, you can do anything you want.
Originally posted by N_Quire
Ah but, we are forgetting the zionist trump card: they are god's chosen people in god's chosen location and, in the zionists' own words, the Palestinians are vermin and worthless scum. If you have the big bearded guy in the sky on your side, you can do anything you want.
SHHHHH!!! We're not supposed to talk about how the existance of Israel is supported by the presumed religious and racial superiority of Jewish people!!
[QUOTE]Originally posted by damgo
...forcible expulsion, otherwise known as "genocide."
[QUOTE]
????
Originally posted by LURCH
[QUOTE]Originally posted by damgo
...forcible expulsion, otherwise known as "genocide."
[QUOTE]
????
Yep...genocide.
http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/genocide/gendef.htm
Greetings !
Originally posted by damgo
I'm not sure what my point is exactly, I suppose
I just think these are important things for those
who are quick to blame one "side" or the other for
a complex conflict to think about.
There is nothing to think about. The
Palestinians are the side to blame for
the conflict and that is it. If the
Palestinians stopped fighting there would
be no conflict and they'd have a good
country many years old by now. All that
knocking your forhead on the floor stuff
simply ain't helping. [;)]
Originally posted by Zero
SHHHHH!!! We're not supposed to talk about
how the existance of Israel is supported by
the presumed religious and racial superiority
of Jewish people!!
Yep. [g)] In my attempt, for very clear reasons,
to prevent you from being mentor of the
politics forum I reread the PF guidelines
again. The PF guidelines basicly say that
a member can talk whatever BS and crap he
wants as long as he's not directing it
at a particular other member. So, statements
like: "Let's just kill all those damn Muslims !"
are perfectly O.K. here.
So, why indeed should I try and be so
civilized while others are not ?
Live long and prosper.
Originally posted by drag
Greetings !
There is nothing to think about. The
Palestinians are the side to blame for
the conflict and that is it. If the
Palestinians stopped fighting there would
be no conflict and they'd have a good
country many years old by now. All that
knocking your forhead on the floor stuff
simply ain't helping. [;)]
Yep. [g)] In my attempt, for very clear reasons,
to prevent you from being mentor of the
politics forum I reread the PF guidelines
again. The PF guidelines basicly say that
a member can talk whatever BS and crap he
wants as long as he's not directing it
at a particular other member. So, statements
like: "Let's just kill all those damn Muslims !"
are perfectly O.K. here.
So, why indeed should I try and be so
civilized while others are not ?
Live long and prosper.
If the Palestinians stopped fighting, the Israelis would treatthem EXACTLY the way Jews have been treated down through history: kill them, kick them off their land, etc.
You should try reading my posts without your bias-glasses. One of the common suports for the existance of Israel comes from religious texts...and also from the 'chosen people' idea contained in those texts. This is a fact, or do you disagree?
I'm assuming the floor comment was just a tasteless but honest attempt at humor and letting it go. :|
Maybe there'd be a peace then, yeah. Or maybe, depending on the details, political expediency would let Elon and friends run the show: "It's clear that Islam is on the way to disappearing," Elon asserts with certainty. "What we are now seeing across the Muslim world is not a powerful surge of faith but the dying embers of Islam. How will it disappear? Very simply. Within a few years a Christian crusade against Islam will be launched, which will be the major event of this millennium. Obviously, we will be up against quite a large problem when only the two great religions of Judaism and Christianity remain, but that's still a long way off...
Just as Ashkelon was once Majdal, Ramallah will cease to be Ramallah. It will become Ramat El [`height of God']. I have no doubt that within a few years the refugee camps will no longer be here. The whole people of Israel will return to the Land of Israel." Wouldn't you just love to live in this guy's world?
Greetings !
Originally posted by Zero
If the Palestinians stopped fighting,
the Israelis would treatthem EXACTLY
the way Jews have been treated down
through history: kill them, kick them
off their land, etc.
Yes, that makes sense, currently palestinian
terrorists are successfully preventing the
most powerful military force in the middle
east from doing that. Makes sense. [g)] [;)]
Get a grip man !
Live long and prosper.
russ_watters
May8-03, 06:53 PM
Originally posted by Zero
If the Palestinians stopped fighting, the Israelis would treatthem EXACTLY the way Jews have been treated down through history: kill them, kick them off their land, etc. What precisely is preventing the Israelis from doing that now? If they wanted to, they could accomplish all that in about a week.
Originally posted by russ_watters
What precisely is preventing the Israelis from doing that now? If they wanted to, they could accomplish all that in about a week. Sanity. The Israeli left. Massive international pressure. There are Israelis who want to do those things, but generally they are not humored.
http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=15868
At 12:30 this afternoon, more than 20 Israeli military vehicles drew up outside the offices of the International Solidarity Movement in Beit Sahour in the West Bank. Dozens of border guards, soldiers, and intelligence officers poured out of these vehicles and raided those offices. They took computers, discs, papers, every piece of data they could lay their hands on...
In less than two years of ISM’s presence here, the movement has welcomed over 1,000 observers from all over the world, including the United States, the United Kingdom, Canada, Denmark, Sweden, Japan, France, Germany, Italy, and elsewhere. Almost 20 percent of the volunteers have been Jewish. The average age is over 30 — many are over 50, and there have even been volunteers in their 70s. They come from all walks of life to support justice. Israelis, too, have worked with ISM and have faced the same levels of violence from soldiers and settlers. It is this disparate collection of concerned individuals who have caused such consternation in the corridors of power in Tel Aviv...
Daily news confirms the suspicion that Israeli authorities want no more foreign witnesses to their actions in occupied Palestine. On Thursday a new policy went into effect that all foreigners entering the Gaza Strip must sign a waiver to absolve the Israeli army of any responsibility should they be killed or wounded while there, in effect giving the Israeli soldiers permission to shoot them. Three foreigners have been killed or critically injured by the Israeli army in the last two months.
Nothing wrong with Israel...
LogicalAtheist
May12-03, 12:57 PM
By wrong I'm going to define it for my post as what's "anti-humanitarian and against humanitarian progress"
What's wrong then is that the majority of people their are applying mythological concepts into reality. This cannot be done.
A mythology is a story or multiple stories that exist in their own system. You cannot bring mythology and apply it AT ALL to reality.
This is the largest current error of the human species. I would love to see the day when this, after thousands of years, is overcome.
Originally posted by LogicalAtheist
By wrong I'm going to define it for my post as what's "anti-humanitarian and against humanitarian progress"
What's wrong then is that the majority of people their are applying mythological concepts into reality. This cannot be done.
A mythology is a story or multiple stories that exist in their own system. You cannot bring mythology and apply it AT ALL to reality.
This is the largest current error of the human species. I would love to see the day when this, after thousands of years, is overcome.
I would edit that to say "What's wrong then is that the majority of people their are applying mythological concepts into reality. This cannot be done sucessfully"
It is hard to deal with any group whose existance is so wrapped up in nonsense like 'holy' lands, and a mythological 'chosen' status.
LogicalAtheist
May12-03, 01:15 PM
Yes. What I meant by cannot be done is that it can't be done and have any humanitrian outcome. Only anti-humanitrian.
Sometimes i think to myself how much I hate that I had to live during a time when religious mythology was still practiced.
I feel like, on a larger human scale, I'm living in the dark ages.
I suppose that in perhaps the years of 4000's or maybe much later like 7000's humans will look back at the oh, say 10000 year time period when religion reigned powerful and think of themselves as we think of people living in anciet egyptian times.
Simple minded, practicing very strange things and devoting so much energy to such obviously nonexistant concepts.
I say to atheists living in 2003, poor us. We "deserve" to live in the future. Let's give eachother a cyber hug. [:)]
Well, it is a shame that people are using ancient grudges based on superstition to promote hate...on both sides.
Greetings !
Zero, you're the MOST biased person I've ever
seen after the really propoganda filled
palestinians themselves perhaps. [:D]
What you quote above is what happenned after
these people helped the two British arab
Muslims penetrate into Israel and commit a
suicide attack. But, I suppose you just forgot
to mention that part... [:D]
Further more, these organizations and "peace"
activists are well known for their often really
rediculous propoganda attempts and the occasional
abstruction of military operations and even
cooporation with local terrorist organizations.
And if that's the way they conduct their
"peace" actions then damn right they should
be thrown out ! Just like foreigh citizens are
thrown out of any country when they act against it.
Live long and prosper.
Originally posted by Zero
...on both sides.
That must've hurt...[:D]
LogicalAtheist
May12-03, 03:34 PM
ZERO isn't biased at all. I'm scared to think ones mind can twist such that his post appears anything BUT unbias.
I'm slowly beginning to see the counter-productivity that occurs here!
Originally posted by drag
Greetings !
Zero, you're the MOST biased person I've ever
seen after the really propoganda filled
palestinians themselves perhaps. [:D]
What you quote above is what happenned after
these people helped the two British arab
Muslims penetrate into Israel and commit a
suicide attack. But, I suppose you just forgot
to mention that part... [:D]
Further more, these organizations and "peace"
activists are well known for their often really
rediculous propoganda attempts and the occasional
abstruction of military operations and even
cooporation with local terrorist organizations.
And if that's the way they conduct their
"peace" actions then damn right they should
be thrown out ! Just like foreigh citizens are
thrown out of any country when they act against it.
Live long and prosper.
Originally posted by drag
Greetings !
Zero, you're the MOST biased person I've ever
seen after the really propoganda filled
palestinians themselves perhaps. [:D]
What you quote above is what happenned after
these people helped the two British arab
Muslims penetrate into Israel and commit a
suicide attack. But, I suppose you just forgot
to mention that part... [:D]
Further more, these organizations and "peace"
activists are well known for their often really
rediculous propoganda attempts and the occasional
abstruction of military operations and even
cooporation with local terrorist organizations.
And if that's the way they conduct their
"peace" actions then damn right they should
be thrown out ! Just like foreigh citizens are
thrown out of any country when they act against it.
Live long and prosper.
Drag, this time you are dead wrong. The two terrorists were not there in any connection with a peace or human rights activist group. Secondly, these groups are campaigning for peace, hence the name. They do not have an unified power base to conduct propaganda for - they are protestors. Thirdly, there is no evidence of cooperation with terrorist organisations, and none have ever been arrested, let alone charged. The only way they obstruct military operations is by shielding children, for which they are run over by an Israeli bulldozer, which then REVERSED BACK OVER. Fifth, their actions are in accordance with conventions for free speech, and are protected under international laws of human rights. Have you any idea what is going on? I suppose those human rights groups must be terrorists too, right?
Don't mind Drag, kids...he is entitled to his opinion, and we shuldn't gang up on him
*Edited because even I can make mistakes, few though they are*
LogicalAtheist
May13-03, 12:26 AM
ZERO - Agreed. He's one that's standing out as a bad side of the group. You meanwhile are great! Keep 'em comin'!
American tax dollars pay for Israel's army...I think we have a duty to ask questions about their behavior, especially when the wider world sees it as being less than humane.
Originally posted by Zero
Don't mind Drag, kids...he can't help but
hate anyone who doesn't support HIS beliefs....
and facts be damned, I suppose.
Nope.
I always deal with ALL the info.
Perhaps you people failed to notice that
the writer of that "news article" if it can
be at all called that is a palestinian
Uni. lecturer ? [;)]
You may wan'na consider this the next time
Zero posts something in the Politics forum.
Or was that not a poorly weiled propoganda trick, Zero ?
Stop lying !
Back to what's really going down with this.
First of all, EVERY country DOES have the FULL
LEGAL RIGHT not to allow foreign citizens whom
it considers unwanted, certainly people who pose
a security threat to themselves and others not to
enter it.
Second, not only did these people hide a terrorist
before which was proven and indeed possibly helped
two others now, it is certainly likely that other
cases may've existed - where there's smoke there's
ussualy fire.
In addition, the ugly propoganda tricks of these
people are well known. They are informed ahead
of violent palestinian demonstrations so that they
could get there right after the attacks and
stand in the way obscuring the attackers and the
snipers and film the IDF as though they're
shooting back at supposedly unarmed people.
They stand in the way of heavy vehicles when
these come to destroy uninhabited houses (unless
the terrorists who operate them are "inhabitants")
with tunnels in them dug to Egypt and used to deliver
tons of arms and ammunition. They film the
destruction of the houses of suicide bombers,
the many family members of whom happily claim
they have many more family memebers to sacrifice,
and then make it look as though it was some
completely random and unrelated action they
"just happened" to witness.
In short, there's nothing wrong or bad
about throwing these people out. They
can join the ones who tied themselves
to Iraqi millitary hardware and go
tie themselves to a nut-house fence in
Antarctica or something.
Live long and prosper.
russ_watters
May13-03, 09:18 PM
drag, just wanted to wish you luck here and cast my vote in your direction. I won't participate in the discussion though, since I think this arguement is one that can't be discussed rationally. It seriously does escape me though, how normally rational people can abandon reason when they discuss politics.
Hmm... Maybe I should start a thread on that. Can you apply the principles of the scientific method to aspects of politics?
GENIERE
May13-03, 10:17 PM
2nd that![:D]
It seriously does escape me though, how normally rational people can abandon reason when they discuss politics. That's what we on the Left think of you few intelligent conservatives. [;)]
drag, you spin a pretty tale, how about providing some documentation for these assertions? They seem somewhat slanted. Ideally from a source that doesn't talk about the Nazi links of anti-war protestors, or how Islam is an evil religion, or how God deeded over Judea and Samaria to the Jewish people...
An alternative explanation is that the IDF simply does not like the extra scrutiny and irritation forced upon it by peace demonstrators. This is a common phenomena in the US -- both liberal and conservative local politicians, university officials, etc, very often try to crack down on protests they think might be at all 'disruptive.' This is not a good thing.
Greetings !
Originally posted by russ_watters
Hmm... Maybe I should start a thread on that.
Can you apply the principles of the scientific
method to aspects of politics?
Not to a full extent, I think. Basicly, all you
need is to know everything that happened.
However, then you have to also consider
the enitial POVs of the observer and his
moral and ethical POVs.
For example, you can fully know that a
terrorist plans to carry out an attack.
But, people disagree over the assasination
of such a person in this case. (Personally,
I have no idea why...[:D]) And that's just
one example.
Originally posted by damgo
drag, you spin a pretty tale, how about
providing some documentation for these
assertions? They seem somewhat slanted.
Ideally from a source that doesn't talk
about the Nazi links of anti-war protestors,
or how Islam is an evil religion, or how
God deeded over Judea and Samaria to the
Jewish people...
Excuse me ?
Could you, please, provide evidence of my
messages in this forum containing intentional
lies and propoganda (like the "you know who's"
messages) ?
Originally posted by damgo
An alternative explanation is that the IDF
simply does not like the extra scrutiny
and irritation forced upon it by peace
demonstrators. This is a common phenomena
in the US -- both liberal and conservative
local politicians, university officials,
etc, very often try to crack down on protests
they think might be at all 'disruptive.'
This is not a good thing.
Of course they don't like it, why would they ?
When these people twist the facts on international
TV and put themselves and everybody else
in danger by interfering in military actions
they're not doing anything to earn any
sympathy from the IDF, naturally.
BUT, that's not why they are banned.
They are thrown out because of their
highly suspected connections with terrorists
and because of the possible potential that
such connections would grow if they are not
prevented at an early stage.
Live long and prosper.
^^^ E v i d e n c e.
I'm not accusing you of intentional lies and propaganda; I don't think anyone here posts those. I just suspect that you are misinformed. I would like to know where you are getting your information re the IDF and protestors, so I can judge its accuracy and reliability for myself. Capiche?
Originally posted by drag
Of course they don't like it, why would they ?
When these people twist the facts on international
TV and put themselves and everybody else
in danger by interfering in military actions
they're not doing anything to earn any
sympathy from the IDF, naturally.
BUT, that's not why they are banned.
They are thrown out because of their
highly suspected connections with terrorists
and because of the possible potential that
such connections would grow if they are not
prevented at an early stage.
Live long and prosper.
Maybe you could post a link to something...I provide links when I can...and you sound much more like propaganda than I do. 'Israel is right no matter right' sounds a lot more biased than my attitude of 'Both sides have flaws that should be addressed.'
russ_watters
May15-03, 11:33 AM
Originally posted by Zero
'Israel is right no matter right' sounds a lot more biased than my attitude.... Heh. Nice of you to include single quotes as no one has said any such thing.
For example, you can fully know that a
terrorist plans to carry out an attack.
But, people disagree over the assasination
of such a person in this case. (Personally,
I have no idea why...) And that's just
one example. Ok, I'll go with that. The issue is even more basic than an ethical dilema on killing a terrorist before an attack. Not everyone would call that terrorist a terrorist. A LOT of people like to say "one man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter." Is he? No. There are international laws/treaties that define quite clearly what actions are right and wrong in an armed conflict. Certainly individual circumstances can be more complicated, but any two rational people should be able to look at one specific act (for example blowing up a bus full of kids), use the agreed-upon definition, and agree that it is terrorism, murder, completely wrong, and not justified under any circumstances.
But people don't agree. This is partly because some people will apply different criteria or definitions in different circumstances in order to be able to use whatever word they want to describe an action. This means those people are irrational.
Applied to science, it would be akin to saying MY definition of up is down, therefore the sky is down. People won't accept such absurdities in a scientific discussion. Why do people accept them in a political one? Doublethink?
edit: Hey, wait - thats Einstein's relativity: The laws of the universe are the same for all observers regardless of their frame of reference. It applies to politics as well.
Russ...I was 'quoting' a general attitude, the one where ANYTHING showing Israel in a less-than-perfect light is automatically treated as a lie. I wasn't claiming that anyone would be honest enough to state what is obviously their opinion.
russ_watters
May15-03, 12:12 PM
Originally posted by Zero
Russ...I was 'quoting' a general attitude, the one where ANYTHING showing Israel in a less-than-perfect light is automatically treated as a lie. I wasn't vlaiming that anyone would be honest enough to state what is obviously their opinion. Your good looks are like someone shining a flashlight in my eyes, its so glaring.
*edited for ANOTHER personal attack!*
Well, maybe that isn't their opinion, but that is certainly some people's worldview. What else explains labeling peace activists as terror supporters?
russ_watters
May15-03, 11:17 PM
Originally posted by russ_watters
Your good looks are like someone shining a flashlight in my eyes, its so glaring.
*edited for ANOTHER personal attack!* Right, Zero. Maybe I should have worded it differently.
How about: The hypocrisy in YOUR POST is glaring?
And you're really REACHING to find personal attacks aimed at you from others since I'm sure you know you have posted many.
And btw: it must be nice to be able to attack others while editing other people's posts for what you consider personal attacks. If I were in a similar position, I'd resign from being a moderator of a forum I have a strong personal opinion about. Conflicts of interest are unethical. But hey - ethics are important to me.
Hell, I thought it was kind of funny...
...and if you have some actual point to make on this thread, why don't you try making it. If not, don't post.
Zargawee
May16-03, 04:22 AM
It's a standard zionist argument, ie let the Arabs give the Palestinians a scrap of land they can call their homeland. Trouble is, the real Palestinian homeland and the jewish one are the same place. Israel must compromise or we'll get nowhere
Why ? they have their own homeland !
Ah but, we are forgetting the zionist trump card: they are god's chosen people in god's chosen location and, in the zionists' own words, the Palestinians are vermin and worthless scum. If you have the big bearded guy in the sky on your side, you can do anything you want.
This shows who is the hate side ... and obviously , this reflects why they consider their actions not terror , while palestinians actions are terror .
There is nothing to think about. The
Palestinians are the side to blame for
the conflict and that is it. If the
Palestinians stopped fighting there would
be no conflict and they'd have a good
country many years old by now. All that
knocking your forhead on the floor stuff
simply ain't helping.
Really ? Duhh !
This is what they did from 1967 to 1988 !! and what happened then ?
*Edited for PF Guideline violations*
Who else can be better to moderate the PaWA forum than Zero ? ( With all my respect to other Moderators ) ... Zero Is The Best Moderator In here ( Personal opnion )
Thank you, Zargawee...and there's no need to drag up old personal attacks, and respond with personal attacks of your own.
Ganshauk
May16-03, 11:30 PM
Whats wrong in Isreal?
There are the Isrealis there on one hand, and the palestinians on the other.
Wipe them all out and...no problem!
Greetings !
Originally posted by damgo
I would like to know where you are getting
your information re the IDF and protestors,
so I can judge its accuracy and reliability
for myself. Capiche?
From relativly direct sources.
Originally posted by Zargawee
Really ? Duhh !
This is what they did from 1967 to 1988 !!
and what happened then ?
The Palestinians weren't exactly peacefull
all that time, but more important and relevant
is the fact that they had no central government
or rule to nagotiate with or manage them.
Partialy, the reason for that was Israel -
they had no real intrest in a palestinian leadership
because at that point in time it would've clearly
most likely be an enemy of Israel and receive
military support from neighboring countries.
But, I was talking about the past 10-15 years
and aspecialy about the current situation.
Live long and prosper.
From relativly direct sources.
Like? Quote? And relative to what?
Zargawee
May17-03, 12:01 PM
The Palestinians weren't exactly peacefull
all that time, but more important and relevant
is the fact that they had no central government
or rule to nagotiate with or manage them.
Partialy, the reason for that was Israel -
they had no real intrest in a palestinian leadership
because at that point in time it would've clearly
most likely be an enemy of Israel and receive
military support from neighboring countries.
There Was a military support from we neighbors , but it stopped just after the end of the six-day war in 1967 , and after that Palestine has gone on it's own , so it's Israel's fault for not giving the Palestinans the opprtunity to have their own leadership.
But, I was talking about the past 10-15 years
and aspecialy about the current situation.
Then Never talk about "The Zionists Lived in there 2000 years ago" Or anything like that .
Because it's just some Bull-$hit , and You Don't want to talk about it.
Originally posted by Zargawee
Really ? Duhh !
This is what they did from 1967 to 1988 !! and what happened then ?
Zargawee- There was no peace from the PLO or Palestinian terrorist in that time period. In 1968 the PLO Covenant was declared, this declares the duty of Arabs and Palestinians all over the world to destory Israel, it specificly calls for "armed revolution, until they liberate their homeland" homeland meaning the entire area including israel "proper". Along with this covenant came an increase in terrorist activities including the hi-jacking of the El-Al, the car bombing in yehude market that killed at least a dozen and injured many more. Also in 1968 the war of attrition initiated by egypt and jordan. 1970 or 71 was a very serious terror attack that killed 12 small children. In 1970 the PLO were also very busy with Black September, in which the PLO attempted to take over Jordan, they were not succesful and were forced out of jordan taking refuge in Lebanon, we won't get into the horrors against christian villages in the mountains, literally wiping out entire villages of lebanese christians, leaving body parts scattered all over the land to the point that identifying bodies consisted of collecting the heads that were laying upon the ground. Lovely peace this was.
in 1972 there was the horror of the Munich Olympic games where the PLO terrorist murdered 11 israeli athletes. Around this time is also when PLO terrorist were sending letter bombs to Israeli officials around the world, one of which killed an attache in London.
1973 the yom kippur war.
1974-24 young children are murdered by PLO terrorist.
after this murder, in 1974 the Gush Eminim (sp?) movement began, this is the movement that this thread is directed towards, it claimed jewish rights over historic israel and pushed to settle judea and samaria (west bank and gaza)
75 or 76- savoy hotel in tel aviv attacked by terrorist from the sea
78 terrorist hijack a bus and kill dozens
after this there were terrorist attacks on ambassadors and attaches in london, paris, washington etc.
Early 80's:
PLO is busy attacking Israel from Lebanon
IDF headquarters bombed killing almost a hundred.
this goes on and on, there was no "peace" although it might be viewed as relatively peaceful compared to the present intifada.
In 1988:
Hamas published their charter, it was based on the forged protocals of Zion and called for the destruction of israel.
Arafat accepted 242 and declared Palestine a state in absentia, this also is perhaps the first movement to recognize the possibility of accepting the existance of an Israeli state, which would not have been popular to surrounding arab countries(particularly syria) or even to many of the terror factions under the PLO "Umbrella".
Zargawee
May17-03, 12:46 PM
This is nothing comparing to what is happening now ...
Look at this Topic ** Contains SO VERY Agonizing Pictures **
Pictures From Palestine ** Contains SO VERY Agonizing Pictures ** (http://physicsforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2187)
Add to that , You forget to say what The Israeli did on that period of time ... they did much worse !
Originally posted by Zargawee
There Was a military support from we neighbors , but it stopped just after the end of the six-day war in 1967 , and after that Palestine has gone on it's own , so it's Israel's fault for not giving the Palestinans the opprtunity to have their own leadership.
Zargawee, you neglect to consider the part that jordan, syria and egypt play in Palestine's non-recognition. They had no problem with swallowing up palestinian mandate lands, Jordan was particularly hostile towards Palestinian nationism. Also, Egypt and Jordan were in opposition to one another and Egypt saw the Palestinians as a means of opposing Jordanian interests.
When they lost the June 1967 war along with a large amount of territory, this loss brought old "Arab" enemies together. Everyone wanted to get their land back and Palestinian recognition by the Arabs was lost in the shuffle. Because of this self interest of the surrounding arab countries Un 242 was written with no thought whatsoever to establishing a Palestinian state (they don't mention the palestinians at all, only a small reference to "the refugees"). The motive of the Arabs (including Jordan) was to get a resolution that would maximize the return of territory to the existing Arab states.
Greetings !
Originally posted by Zargawee
Then Never talk about "The Zionists Lived in
there 2000 years ago" Or anything like that .
Because it's just some Bull-$hit , and You
Don't want to talk about it.
I never talked about this on this forum.
In fact, I don't think I ever went earlier
than the 20th century on this forum.
As for pictures, I've seen a lot on both
sides, victim pictures do not show the
way they happened. (btw, your link ain't
working.)
Live long and prosper.
russ_watters
May18-03, 11:22 PM
Originally posted by Zargawee
This is nothing comparing to what is happening now ... The past gets hazy the further away it is. It really has been as bad as now mostly nonstop for 50 years. Even in the 80s the Arabs hijacked a plane every month or so. American trave to Europe was a real big problem. When I was a kid in mid-80s, I went on a trip to Europe and they had soldiers guarding American Express offices because of the high threat of terrorism.
vBulletin® v3.8.7, Copyright ©2000-2012, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.