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Ed Fredkin
Apr9-04, 05:18 PM
<jabberwocky><div class="vbmenu_control"><a href="jabberwocky:;" onClick="newWindow=window.open('','usenetCode','toolbar=no, location=no,scrollbars=yes,resizable=yes,status=no ,width=650,height=400'); newWindow.document.write('<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Usenet ASCII</TITLE></HEAD><BODY topmargin=0 leftmargin=0 BGCOLOR=#F1F1F1><table border=0 width=625><td bgcolor=midnightblue><font color=#F1F1F1>This Usenet message\'s original ASCII form: </font></td></tr><tr><td width=449><br><br><font face=courier><UL><PRE>Feynman Gate\n\nThe Billiard Ball Model (BBM) is a Newtonian model of computation\nwhere hypothetically perfect and identical billiard balls (diameter=1)\ninteract synchronously with each other in order to do the same kind of\nlogic as computer circuits. Collision points have integer coordinates\n(on a Cartesian Lattice) and the velocity of every ball is x dot= + or\n- 1, y dot= + or - 1. The x and y coordinates of every ball are\nintegers when time is an integer. The basic circuit is a place where\n2 billiard balls might collide. If we call the incoming paths A and\nB, then there are 4 output paths. If 2 balls collide then the 2 balls\nexiting the collision are each called "A.B" (A and B).\n\nA B\n\\ /\n\\ / The BBM Gate\n\\ /\n\\ XX / "XX" marks a possible collision point\n/ \\ / \\\n/ \\/ \\\n/ /\\ \\\n/ / \\ \\\n/ / \\ \\\nA.B ~A.B A.~B A.B\n\nIf only one Ball enters the gate, it continues in a straight line. If\nboth balls enter, both leave on different paths. The BBM gate has an\nabstract property reminiscent of QM. The only way we can "measure"\nwhether or not a ball is present on path B is to run it through a BBM\nGate along with a test ball (A) and see if the path of A is deflected\nby the potential ball B. Of course, it is obvious that you cannot\nmeasure B without deflecting it, since it must be involved in a\ncollision in order to make the measurement.\n\nIt is easy to show that any kind of digital computer can be\nconstructed within the BBM. A few days after the invention of the\nBBM, Feynman came up with a simple circuit made up out of 2 BBM gates,\nit has since been called the "Feynman Gate." This gate has an unusual\nproperty.\n\n\nA B\n\\ /\n\\ /\n\\ /\n\\ XX /\n/ \\ / \\ |\n/ \\/ \\ |Reflector\n| / /\\ / |\n| / / \\ /\n| \\ / \\\n\\ / / \\\nXX / \\\n/ \\ \\\n/ \\ \\\nB A.B A.~B\n\nIn the Feynman Gate, A detects the presence of B without affecting the\npath of B! The reason is that when A and B are both present, there\nare 2 collisions. If a ball enters at B (at the top) a ball exits at\nB (at the bottom) whether or not A is present. However when A is\npresent, a ball exits at A.B (meaning B was there) or at A.~B (meaning\nB was not there). If a ball enters at B (top) a ball always exits at\nB (bottom). Thus the signal B can be measured without being affected\nby the measurement.\n\nOne question is: "Are there analogies to this kind of phenomenon in\nQM?"\n\nEd F\n\n</UL></PRE></font></td></tr></table></BODY><HTML>');"> <IMG SRC=/images/buttons/ip.gif BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER ALT="View this Usenet post in original ASCII form">&nbsp;&nbsp;View this Usenet post in original ASCII form </a></div><P></jabberwocky>Feynman Gate

The Billiard Ball Model (BBM) is a Newtonian model of computation
where hypothetically perfect and identical billiard balls (diameter=1)
interact synchronously with each other in order to do the same kind of
logic as computer circuits. Collision points have integer coordinates
(on a Cartesian Lattice) and the velocity of every ball is x dot= + or
- 1, y dot= + or - 1. The x and y coordinates of every ball are
integers when time is an integer. The basic circuit is a place where
2 billiard balls might collide. If we call the incoming paths A and
B, then there are 4 output paths. If 2 balls collide then the 2 balls
exiting the collision are each called "A.B" (A and B).

A B
\ /
\ / The BBM Gate
\ /
\ XX / "XX" marks a possible collision point
/ \ / \
/ \/ \
/ /\ \
/ / \ \
/ / \ \
A.B ~A.B A.~B A.B

If only one Ball enters the gate, it continues in a straight line. If
both balls enter, both leave on different paths. The BBM gate has an
abstract property reminiscent of QM. The only way we can "measure"
whether or not a ball is present on path B is to run it through a BBM
Gate along with a test ball (A) and see if the path of A is deflected
by the potential ball B. Of course, it is obvious that you cannot
measure B without deflecting it, since it must be involved in a
collision in order to make the measurement.

It is easy to show that any kind of digital computer can be
constructed within the BBM. A few days after the invention of the
BBM, Feynman came up with a simple circuit made up out of 2 BBM gates,
it has since been called the "Feynman Gate." This gate has an unusual
property.


A B
\ /
\ /
\ /
\ XX /
/ \ / \ |
/ \/ \ |Reflector
| / /\ / |
| / / \ /
| \ / \
\ / / \
XX / \
/ \ \
/ \ \
B A.B A.~B

In the Feynman Gate, A detects the presence of B without affecting the
path of B! The reason is that when A and B are both present, there
are 2 collisions. If a ball enters at B (at the top) a ball exits at
B (at the bottom) whether or not A is present. However when A is
present, a ball exits at A.B (meaning B was there) or at A.~B (meaning
B was not there). If a ball enters at B (top) a ball always exits at
B (bottom). Thus the signal B can be measured without being affected
by the measurement.

One question is: "Are there analogies to this kind of phenomenon in
QM?"

Ed F

Robert Tucci
Apr11-04, 11:44 AM
<jabberwocky><div class="vbmenu_control"><a href="jabberwocky:;" onClick="newWindow=window.open('','usenetCode','toolbar=no, location=no,scrollbars=yes,resizable=yes,status=no ,width=650,height=400'); newWindow.document.write('<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Usenet ASCII</TITLE></HEAD><BODY topmargin=0 leftmargin=0 BGCOLOR=#F1F1F1><table border=0 width=625><td bgcolor=midnightblue><font color=#F1F1F1>This Usenet message\'s original ASCII form: </font></td></tr><tr><td width=449><br><br><font face=courier><UL><PRE>\n\n\n\n&gt; One question is: "Are there analogies to this kind of phenomenon in\n&gt; QM?"\n&gt;\n&gt; Ed F\n\ndepending on what one means by analogy:\n*controlled-not used in classical\nreversible computation and quantum computation\n*non-demolition detection\n*two stern-gerlachs used in tandem\n*classical bayesian network, with the following graph,\nwhere 0 are nodes and /\\ are arrows pointing downward\n0 0\n\\ /\n0\n/ \\\n0 0\n\\ /\n0\n/ \\\n0 0\n*quantum bayesian network with the same graph\n</UL></PRE></font></td></tr></table></BODY><HTML>');"> <IMG SRC=/images/buttons/ip.gif BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER ALT="View this Usenet post in original ASCII form">&nbsp;&nbsp;View this Usenet post in original ASCII form </a></div><P></jabberwocky>One question is: "Are there analogies to this kind of phenomenon in
> QM?"
>
> Ed F

depending on what one means by analogy:
*controlled-not used in classical
reversible computation and quantum computation
*non-demolition detection
*two stern-gerlachs used in tandem
*classical bayesian network, with the following graph,
where are nodes and /\ are arrows pointing downward

\ /

/ \

\ /

/ \

*quantum bayesian network with the same graph

Frank Hellmann
Apr13-04, 11:29 AM
<jabberwocky><div class="vbmenu_control"><a href="jabberwocky:;" onClick="newWindow=window.open('','usenetCode','toolbar=no, location=no,scrollbars=yes,resizable=yes,status=no ,width=650,height=400'); newWindow.document.write('<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Usenet ASCII</TITLE></HEAD><BODY topmargin=0 leftmargin=0 BGCOLOR=#F1F1F1><table border=0 width=625><td bgcolor=midnightblue><font color=#F1F1F1>This Usenet message\'s original ASCII form: </font></td></tr><tr><td width=449><br><br><font face=courier><UL><PRE>\n\n\nShort anwser: no. The no cloning theorem forbids these kind of gates.\nYou can\'t have a state whose outcome depends soley on another state\nwithout disturbing that other state.\n\n(e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_cloning_theorem)\n\nOtherwise the phenomenology of QM would break down as well.\n\n\n---\nFrank Hellmann\n</UL></PRE></font></td></tr></table></BODY><HTML>');"> <IMG SRC=/images/buttons/ip.gif BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER ALT="View this Usenet post in original ASCII form">&nbsp;&nbsp;View this Usenet post in original ASCII form </a></div><P></jabberwocky>Short anwser: no. The no cloning theorem forbids these kind of gates.
You can't have a state whose outcome depends soley on another state
without disturbing that other state.

(e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_cloning_theorem)

Otherwise the phenomenology of QM would break down as well.


---
Frank Hellmann

Stephen Speicher
Apr13-04, 05:44 PM
<jabberwocky><div class="vbmenu_control"><a href="jabberwocky:;" onClick="newWindow=window.open('','usenetCode','toolbar=no, location=no,scrollbars=yes,resizable=yes,status=no ,width=650,height=400'); newWindow.document.write('<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Usenet ASCII</TITLE></HEAD><BODY topmargin=0 leftmargin=0 BGCOLOR=#F1F1F1><table border=0 width=625><td bgcolor=midnightblue><font color=#F1F1F1>This Usenet message\'s original ASCII form: </font></td></tr><tr><td width=449><br><br><font face=courier><UL><PRE>Ed Fredkin wrote:\n&gt;\n&gt; ... Thus the signal B can be measured without being affected by the\n&gt; measurement.\n&gt;\n&gt; One question is: "Are there analogies to this kind of phenomenon in\n&gt; QM?"\n&gt;\n\nEd, there is a whole qm formalism which has developed around this in\nthe past decade or so -- quantum nondemolition measurements. See\nespecially the papers of Vladimir B. Braginsky. Kip Thorne edited a\nnice little book which introduces the elements of quantum\nnondemolition, written by Braginsky and Farid Ya. Khalili. It is\ntitled "Quantum Measurement," _Cambridge University Press_ 1992.\n\nBraginsky\'s work was instrumental in the design of the next-generation\nLIGO-type gravitational wave detectors, which will beat the standard\nquantum limit by a substantial amount.\n\n--\nStephen\nstephen@speicher.com\n\nIgnorance is just a placeholder for knowledge.\n\nPrinted using 100% recycled electrons.\n-----------------------------------------------------------\n\n\n\n</UL></PRE></font></td></tr></table></BODY><HTML>');"> <IMG SRC=/images/buttons/ip.gif BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER ALT="View this Usenet post in original ASCII form">&nbsp;&nbsp;View this Usenet post in original ASCII form </a></div><P></jabberwocky>Ed Fredkin wrote:
>
> ... Thus the signal B can be measured without being affected by the
> measurement.
>
> One question is: "Are there analogies to this kind of phenomenon in
> QM?"
>

Ed, there is a whole qm formalism which has developed around this in
the past decade or so -- quantum nondemolition measurements. See
especially the papers of Vladimir B. Braginsky. Kip Thorne edited a
nice little book which introduces the elements of quantum
nondemolition, written by Braginsky and Farid Ya. Khalili. It is
titled "Quantum Measurement," _Cambridge University Press_ 1992.

Braginsky's work was instrumental in the design of the next-generation
LIGO-type gravitational wave detectors, which will beat the standard
quantum limit by a substantial amount.

--
Stephen
stephen@speicher.com

Ignorance is just a placeholder for knowledge.

Printed using 100% recycled electrons.
-----------------------------------------------------------

scerir
Oct24-04, 10:04 AM
<jabberwocky><div class="vbmenu_control"><a href="jabberwocky:;" onClick="newWindow=window.open('','usenetCode','toolbar=no, location=no,scrollbars=yes,resizable=yes,status=no ,width=650,height=400'); newWindow.document.write('<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Usenet ASCII</TITLE></HEAD><BODY topmargin=0 leftmargin=0 BGCOLOR=#F1F1F1><table border=0 width=625><td bgcolor=midnightblue><font color=#F1F1F1>This Usenet message\'s original ASCII form: </font></td></tr><tr><td width=449><br><br><font face=courier><UL><PRE>\n\nEd Fredkin asked (in April):\n\n\nA B\n\\ /\n\\ /\n\\ /\n\\ XX /\n/ \\ / \\ |\n/ \\/ \\ |Reflector\n| / /\\ / |\n| / / \\ /\n| \\ / \\\n\\ / / \\\nXX / \\\n/ \\ \\\n/ \\ \\\nB A.B A.~B\n\nIn the Feynman Gate, A detects the presence of B\nwithout affecting the path of B! The reason is\nthat when A and B are both present, there are 2\ncollisions. If a ball enters at B (at the top)\na ball exits at B (at the bottom) whether or not\nA is present. However when A is present, a ball\nexits at A.B (meaning B was there) or at A.~B (meaning\nB was not there). If a ball enters at B (top) a ball\nalways exits at B (bottom). Thus the signal B can be\nmeasured without being affected by the measurement.\n\nAre there analogies to this kind of phenomenon in QM?\n\n--------------------\n\nThere is, perhaps, a very \'vague\' similarity between\nthat gate and those double Mach-Zehnder interferometers\ndesigned for testing Hardy\'s gedanken experiment.\nYou can see one of them in fig. 3 in the paper below.\nhttp://www.arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0410160\nRegards,\nserafino\n\n\n\n\n\n\n</UL></PRE></font></td></tr></table></BODY><HTML>');"> <IMG SRC=/images/buttons/ip.gif BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER ALT="View this Usenet post in original ASCII form">&nbsp;&nbsp;View this Usenet post in original ASCII form </a></div><P></jabberwocky>Ed Fredkin asked (in April):


A B
\ /\ /\ /\ XX // \ / \ |/ \/ \ |Reflector
| / /\ / || / / \ /| \ / \\ / / \XX / \/ \ \/ \ \
B A.B A.~B

In the Feynman Gate, A detects the presence of B
without affecting the path of B! The reason is
that when A and B are both present, there are 2
collisions. If a ball enters at B (at the top)
a ball exits at B (at the bottom) whether or not
A is present. However when A is present, a ball
exits at A.B (meaning B was there) or at A.~B (meaning
B was not there). If a ball enters at B (top) a ball
always exits at B (bottom). Thus the signal B can be
measured without being affected by the measurement.

Are there analogies to this kind of phenomenon in QM?

--------------------

There is, perhaps, a very 'vague' similarity between
that gate and those double Mach-Zehnder interferometers
designed for testing Hardy's gedanken experiment.
You can see one of them in fig. 3 in the paper below.
http://www.arxiv.org/abs/http://www.arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0410160
Regards,
serafino