Problems in Turkey?

[Greg Bernhardt]

CNN just announced on their homepage that Turkey is sending the US Ambassador back to the US and might continue bombing the kurd militias in northern Iraq. How much of a problem is Turkey becoming?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7035751.stm
http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/10/11/news/turkey.php

[phoenixy]

CNN just announced on their homepage that Turkey is sending the US Ambassador back to the US and might continue bombing the kurd militias in northern Iraq. How much of a problem is Turkey becoming?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7035751.stm
http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/10/11/news/turkey.php

Minor correction: they are recalling their ambassador from US and reward him some "vacation time".

Things definitely are going to get more interesting again. With the US military being worn out in Iraq, I think regional powers sensed weakness and is now prepared to make moves.

Personally I don't really understand what the big deal with the genocide vote is. It seems like Turkey is using it as a smoke screen to initiate independent action, ie. curbing the Iraqis Kurds.

[Art]

This from the article "If they have a problem, they need to work together to resolve it and I am not sure that unilateral incursions are the way to go," said state department spokesman Sean McCormack rather ironic..

[chemisttree]

How much of a problem is Turkey becoming?


Perhaps the question should be "How much of a problem is the Foreign Affairs Committee becoming?" What possible sane reason would the Committee have to take this destabilizing action now?

[Astronuc]

I heard this morning about a resolution (or bill?) in Congress condemning the Armenian Genocide, which is still an issue concerning Turkey. Past Congresses have buried such legislation in the past.

House Bill on Armenian Genocide Angers Turks
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=15180113
NPR.org, October 11, 2007 · A House committee has voted to condemn the killing of more than 1 million Armenians in Turkey in World War I, explicitly calling the event "genocide." The Turkish government opposes the resolution — as does the Bush administration, which warns that relations with a key ally could be damaged.
Bush doesn't want to deal with it.
The Turkish government has deployed a force of Turkish lawmakers and American lobbyists on Capitol Hill to try to block the non-binding measure that labels those events genocide. But the House vote also underscored the quiet influence of the Armenian-American lobby.

The Bush administration tried every tool at its disposal to dissuade committee members from approving the resolution. President Bush spoke of the consequences of offending the Turkish government in remarks he made on the White House lawn.

"We all deeply regret the tragic suffering of the Armenian people that began in 1915," Bush said. "This resolution is not the right response to these historic mass killings, and its passage would do great harm to our relations with a key ally in NATO, and in the global war on terror."
But then if not now - when?

[russ_watters]

Personally I don't really understand what the big deal with the genocide vote is. It seems like Turkey is using it as a smoke screen to initiate independent action, ie. curbing the Iraqis Kurds. On the flip side, I'm wondering what the point of the resolution is. The distrustful-of-democrats in me is considering that it may be an attempt to sabbotage relations with Turkey to disrupt the war effort.

[kach22i]

On the flip side, I'm wondering what the point of the resolution is.

Germany is our ally, right?

What if their government systematically denied the Holocaust for the past 62 years and still practiced NAZI-like ways?

It's been 92 years for the Armenians.

Our time has come.

[Astronuc]

On the flip side, I'm wondering what the point of the resolution is. The distrustful-of-democrats in me is considering that it may be an attempt to sabbotage relations with Turkey to disrupt the war effort.
It may be bad timing, but with successive Republican majorities in Congress and/or Republican administrations, it has been put off until now.

The modern world needs to come to terms with its past.

And we need to move on and stop with the violence already.

[russ_watters]

Germany is our ally, right?

What if their government systematically denied the Holocaust for the past 62 years and still practiced NAZI-like ways?

It's been 92 years for the Armenians.

Our time has come. I really don't know the history that well, but what does any of that have to do with the US Congress passing a resolution? Why are they doing it now? Why does it need to be done at all?

[russ_watters]

It may be bad timing, but with successive Republican majorities in Congress and/or Republican administrations, it has been put off until now. For 90 years? Doesn't make sense to me.

[Astronuc]

For 90 years? Doesn't make sense to me.
It has been a matter of expedience and convenience, especially after WWII and development of the Cold War.

[kach22i]

It has been a matter of expedience and convenience, especially after WWII and development of the Cold War.
That sums it up.

[chemisttree]

It has been a matter of expedience and convenience, especially after WWII and development of the Cold War.

Was that why Clinton convinced the Republican-controlled congress to abandon its attempt to recognize the Armenian genocide in October 2000?

In a letter to Hastert, Clinton said, "We have significant interests in this troubled region of the world: containing the threat posed by East and Central Asia; stabilizing the Balkans; and developing new sources of energy.

Just like Clinton.... its all about mideast oil!

"Consideration of the resolution at this sensitive time will negatively affect those interests and could undermine efforts to encourage improved relations between Armenia and Turkey."

I'm glad that all's well in that part of the world now and we can Moveon to recognize the Armenians suffering after 90 years, as if we haven't already in numerous forums and by various presidents.

President Wilson
Senate Concurrent Resolution 12 of February 9, 1916, resolved that `the President of the United States be respectfully asked to designate a day on which the citizens of this country may give expression to their sympathy by contributing funds now being raised for the relief of the Armenians', who at the time were enduring `starvation, disease, and untold suffering'.
President Wilson concurred and also encouraged the formation of the organization known as Near East Relief, chartered by an Act of Congress, which contributed some $116,000,000 from 1915 to 1930 to aid the Armenian Genocide survivors, including 132,000 orphans who became foster children of the American people.
President Reagan
President Reagan in proclamation number 4838, dated April 22, 1981, stated in part `like the genocide of the Armenians before it, and the genocide of the Cambodians, which followed it--and like too many other persecutions of too many other people--the lessons of the holocaust must never be forgotten'.
President Clinton
President Clinton, on August 13, 1992, stated `[t]he Genocide of 1915, years of communist dictatorship, and the devastating earthquake of 1988 have caused great suffering in Armenia during this century'.
President Bush
President Bush, in 1988, speaking of the Armenian Genocide, stated `we must consciously and conscientiously recognize the genocides of the past--the enormous tragedies that have darkened this century and that haunt us still. We must not only commemorate the courage of the victims and of their survivors, but we must also remind ourselves that civilization cannot be taken for granted. . . . We must all be vigilant against this most heinous crime against humanity'.
President Bush, in 1988, stated further `[t]he United States must acknowledge the attempted genocide of the Armenian people in the last years of the Ottoman Empire, based on the testimony of survivors, scholars, and indeed our own representatives at the time, if we are to insure that such horrors are not repeated'.
Haven't we already done so?
The tragedy of the Armenian Genocide has been acknowledged by countries and international bodies such as Argentina, Belgium, Canada, the Council of Europe, Cyprus, the European Parliament, France, Great Britain, Greece, Lebanon, Russia, the United Nations, the United States, and Uruguay.

The United States Holocaust Memorial Council, an independent Federal agency, unanimously resolved on April 30, 1981, that the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum would include the Armenian Genocide in the Museum and has since done so.

Was all this nonsense necessary.... now?
I don't think so.

[BobG]

President Bush, in 1988, stated further `[t]he United States must acknowledge the attempted genocide of the Armenian people in the last years of the Ottoman Empire, based on the testimony of survivors, scholars, and indeed our own representatives at the time, if we are to insure that such horrors are not repeated'.
Since 1988, you had Bosnia, Rwanda, Guatemala, Kosovo, Darfur, and Congo.

Which brings up a problem in terminology. Civil wars turn extremely violent and often involved war crimes, crimes against humanity, etc, but the term 'genocide' has turned into a term meaning 'crimes committed by an enemy of ours'. The politics of naming: genocide, civil war, insurgency (http://alternatives-international.net/article681.html?lang=en) 'Genocide' has become as slippery a term as 'terrorist' has become.

Genocide is a technically appropriate term to use when reffering to what happened to Armenians in Turkey, but Congress's bill implies a lot more than an acknowledgement of a past crime committed by a government that was deposed soon after the crime. In today's world, the acknowledgement is tossing Turkey in the group consisting of the 'Arabs' in Darfur, the Serbs in Bosnia and Kosovo, etc.

[kach22i]

Was all this nonsense necessary.... now?
I don't think so.

Does the United States of America formally recognize the Armenian genocide?

Its a yes or no answer.

Why would the Turkish goverment spend over $300,000 a year to prevent it if it already exist?

Is your "Turkishness" intact chemisttree? If you were over there they might lock you up or worse for telling the truth.

Makes me sad to think the Turks locked up Hrant Dink's son.

Turkey Lashes Back at Genocide Vote
http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/20071012/wl_time/turkeylashesbackatgenocidevote
One recent victim was high-profile Turkish-Armenian journalist Hrant Dink, who was shot to death by a teenager with links to nationalist groups. His son, Arat Dink, and publisher Serkis Seropyan were sentenced on Friday to one year in jail for "insulting Turkishness" by referring to the Armenian genocide. They will appeal the verdict.

[chemisttree]

Does the United States of America formally recognize the Armenian genocide?

Its a yes or no answer.

I would say 'yes'. What do you think?

[BobG]

On the flip side, I'm wondering what the point of the resolution is. The distrustful-of-democrats in me is considering that it may be an attempt to sabbotage relations with Turkey to disrupt the war effort.

There's three sponsors for this bill. Three Democrats and two Republicans: George Radanovich, an extremely conservative Rep from Mariposa, California; Brad Sherman, a Democrat from Sherman Oaks, CA; Adam Schiff, a Democrat from Burbank, CA; Thad McCotter, a conservative-libertarian Republican from Michigan; and Frank Pallone, a Democrat from New Jersey. Radanovich and McCotter have been supporters of staying in Iraq, while the other three have been supporters of leaving.

I also wonder why they would choose this particular time to introduce a bill that will cause problems in Iraq, but it isn't a particularly partisan effort.

[russ_watters]

Does the United States of America formally recognize the Armenian genocide?

Its a yes or no answer. The answer is no.

Should it? Why?

[Art]

Genocide is a technically appropriate term to use when reffering to what happened to Armenians in Turkey, but Congress's bill implies a lot more than an acknowledgement of a past crime committed by a government that was deposed soon after the crime. In today's world, the acknowledgement is tossing Turkey in the group consisting of the 'Arabs' in Darfur, the Serbs in Bosnia and Kosovo, etc.I think the distinction is made between the Turkish gov't of today and that of the Ottomans but it is vital the Turks face up to their past. It is important for the Armenians to have what happened to them declared genocide for practical as well as emotional reasons. For a start it would allow them to seek financial reparations from Turkey as paid to jewish people by the Germans after the Nazi genocide. These payments are still being made today despite the Nazi gov't too being long gone amd rightly so, whereas in Turkey people today are being imprisoned for mentioning the attrocity. Could you imagine a Germany of today imprisoning jews for complaining about the holocaust? It would be unthinkable and yet that is what is happening in Turkey.

Personally I would like to see more of gov'ts doing the right thing because it is the right thing to do rather than ignore attrocities because of short term interests and I don't believe in the conspiracy theories floated in this thread re the motive for the vote. There has been a worldwide campaign for some years now for international recognition of this genocide with France being one of the countries to lend official support fairly recently - 2004.

[chemisttree]

I think the distinction is made between the Turkish gov't of today and that of the Ottomans but it is vital the Turks face up to their past. It is important for the Armenians to have what happened to them declared genocide for practical as well as emotional reasons. For a start it would allow them to seek financial reparations from Turkey as paid to jewish people by the Germans after the Nazi genocide. These payments are still being made today despite the Nazi gov't too being long gone amd rightly so, whereas in Turkey people today are being imprisoned for mentioning the attrocity. Could you imagine a Germany of today imprisoning jews for complaining about the holocaust? It would be unthinkable and yet that is what is happening in Turkey.

Art, don't forget that much of the world has already done just that, including the United Nations. How will the US's recognition suddenly allow the Armenians to feel good about themselves or heal emotionally and begin to seek reparations?

If this (http://www.armenian-genocide.org/current_category.7/affirmation_list.html) doesn't help the Armenians feel better, nothing will.....

[chemisttree]

64th Congress
1st Session

S. CON. RES. 12 [Senate Concurrent Resolution 12]

[Report No. 837.]

In the House of Representatives.

February 10, 1916.

Referred to the Committee on Foreign Affairs.

June 21, 1916

Referred to the House Calendar and ordered to be printed.

Concurrent Resolution

Whereas in countries now engaged in war there are several hundreds of thousands of Armenians in need of food, clothing, and shelter; and

Whereas great numbers of them have been required by conditions growing out of the state of war to leave their homes and their property, deprived of an opportunity to make provision for their most elementary wants, causing starvation, disease, and untold suffering; and

Whereas the people of the United States of America have learned with sorrow of this terrible plight of great numbers of human beings and have most generously responded to the cry for help whenever such an appeal has reached them: Therefore be it

Resolved by the Senate (the House of Representatives concurring), That, in view of the misery, wretchedness, and hardships which these people are suffering, the President of the United States be respectfully asked to designate a day on which the citizens of this country may give expression to their sympathy by contributing to the funds now being raised for the relief of the Armenians in the belligerent countries.

Passed the Senate February 9, 1916.
Attest: James M. Baker, Secretary.

64th Congress
1st Session

House of Representatives

Report No. 837.

Relief of Armenians.

June 21, 1916. — Referred to the House Calendar and ordered to be printed.

Mr. Flood, from the Committee on Foreign Affairs, submitted the following Report.

[To accompany S. Con. Res. 12.]

The Committee on Foreign Affairs, to which was referred the resolution S. Con. Res. 12, having had the same under consideration, reports the said resolution back without amendment and with the recommendation that the same be passed.

The committee deems it unnecessary to give reasons for its action, as the desperate condition and the urgent need of relief for the Armenians are so widely known. The purpose of the resolution is to give an impetus to the untiring efforts of the generous people of this country who have been responding to the call of humanity and to the relief of these suffering people. Our ambassador to Turkey has authorized the American Committee for Armenian Relief to publish a letter, from which the quotation following is taken:

I again want to urge upon your committee the great necessity of securing additional funds to enable us to render further assistance to the Armenian sufferers.

If you could only bring home to the public the large amount of good done by the expenditure of the funds already sent us and the number of people we were able to save from dire distress, I feel convinced that there would be a generous and prompt response.

This was resolved before there was a word for 'genocide'.

This was passed sometime after the word had meaning.

94th Congress
1st Session

H.J. Resolution 148 [House Joint Resolution 148]

In the Senate of the United States

April 9, 1975

Read twice and referred to the Committee on the Judiciary

Joint Resolution

To designate April 24, 1975, as "National Day of Remembrance of Man's Inhumanity to Man".

Resolved by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, That April 24, 1975, is hereby designated as "National Day of Remembrance of Man's Inhumanity to Man", and the President of the United States is authorized and requested to issue a proclamation calling upon the people of the United States to observe such day as a day of remembrance for all the victims of genocide, especially those of Armenian ancestry who succumbed to the genocide perpetrated in 1915, and in whose memory this date is commemorated by all Armenians and their friends throughout the world.

Passed the House of Representatives April 8, 1975.
Attest: W. Pat Jennings, Clerk.

Read the key portions of H.J. Resolution 148 at the official web site of the U.S. Congress. Type "H.J. Res. 148" into the "Bill/Amendment No." box and click the "Search" button.

Isn't this deja vu all over again?

[chemisttree]

The answer is no.

Should it? Why?

How do you possibly get 'no' out of this?

[Art]

Art, don't forget that much of the world has already done just that, including the United Nations. How will the US's recognition suddenly allow the Armenians to feel good about themselves or heal emotionally and begin to seek reparations?

If this (http://www.armenian-genocide.org/current_category.7/affirmation_list.html) doesn't help the Armenians feel better, nothing will.....The United Nations Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide was only adopted in 1948, thirty years after the Armenian Genocide. Since then countries like France, Argentina, Greece, and Russia, have officially recognized the Armenian Genocide. However, as a matter of policy, the present-day Republic of Turkey adamantly denies that a genocide was committed against the Armenians during W.W.I. Turkey also dismisses the evidence about the atrocities as mere allegations and vehemently opposes official acknowledgement of the attrocity.

Because of the Turk's continued denial the Armenian Genocide is still an issue of international significance. The Armenians want international pressure on Turkey to own up to their past sins and pay reparations for material loss under the terms of the 1948 Convention to the descendants of those Armenians who suffered.

[kach22i]

Because of the Turk's continued denial the Armenian Genocide is still an issue of international significance.

Turkey wants in the European Union, they should at least own up to their past as the Germans have.

The current Kurdish leaders have acknowledge their forefathers role and have applogized, this goes a long way to being able to go into the future without all that extra baggage.

The near and mid-east has a sense of history which most Americans cannnot quite grasp. We are talking about an ancient culture in the case of the Armenians. History and the past are relavant to the present, they affect everything they do and how they act or react. The record must be set straight if old wounds are to heal. It's at least a step in the right direction, the truth is worthy in it's self.

[russ_watters]

How do you possibly get 'no' out of this? Didn't know about it. Why are we even having this conversation, then?

This is all very strange to me.

[Greg Bernhardt]

Looks like Turkey is going in!
http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/10/17/turkey.iraq/index.html

[kach22i]

Looks like Turkey is going in!
http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/10/17/turkey.iraq/index.html

Dang, this is no good.

You know why Turkey would not let the US military pass though that corner of Iraq for the invasion?

As NPR reported at the time and with audiotapes; Turkey had 60,000 troops already there to prevent waves of refugees, which massed there in the first Gulf War.

What was on the audiotape was the sound of Turkish attack helicopters attacking Kurds on the Iraqi side of the border. No one really knew if it was PKK positions or just Iraqi civilians, everyone in town with a gun shot up to the sky to ward off the attacks just the same.

Also reported at the time of the US invasion was that in Iraq at an abandoned airbase there were as many as 100 Turkish tanks standing by. Some think just to intimidate the PKK; others think to stand off the possibility of tens of thousands of fleeing refugees.

No Turkish officials would comment, but Turkish families said their sons had been sent into Iraq and stationed there.

This operation is much more open and meant as a political statement.

[EnumaElish]

No Turkish officials would comment, but Turkish families said their sons had been sent into Iraq and stationed there.That is no secret; it is hardly news:

In Washington, President Bush said the United States was making clear to Turkey it should not send a massive number of troops into Iraq.

Bush said Turkey has had troops stationed in Iraq "for quite a while."

"We don't think it's in their interest to send more troops in."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071017/ap_on_re_mi_ea/turkey

[kach22i]

[QUOTE=EnumaElish;1469990]That is no secret; it is hardly news:

It is BIG NEWS and has been a well kept secret as reporters are not allowed in that area and all news must be smuggled out at risk of death at the hands of the Turkish army.

I don't think most Americans know that Turkey is in Iraq or Afghanistan. At least they are part of NATO in Afghanistan and were invited.

Does anyone know for sure how many Turkish troops are in Iraq presently? Google it, you will not find a straight answer.

The numbers are kept secret, ask yourself why..............who or what is being protected?

Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki does not want the Turks there, they are not invited, they would be invading as usual.

[EnumaElish]

Does anyone know for sure how many Turkish troops are in Iraq presently? Google it, you will not find a straight answer.I did. Various sources refer to "a few thousand" as of June 2007 (based on "off the record" quotes from Turkish army officials); one source states 50,000 went into Iraq in 1997 (http://www.redorbit.com/news/international/958361/turkish_officials_troops_enter_iraq/index.html)

Also of interest, from 2003: http://malaysia.usembassy.gov/wf/wf1007_turkishtroops.html

[kach22i]

I did. Various sources refer to "a few thousand" as of June 2007 (based on "off the record" quotes from Turkish army officials); one source states 50,000 went into Iraq in 1997 (http://www.redorbit.com/news/international/958361/turkish_officials_troops_enter_iraq/index.html)

Also of interest, from 2003: http://malaysia.usembassy.gov/wf/wf1007_turkishtroops.html

This is exactly what I'm talking about!

Look dude maybe over in Turkey when your counrty invades another country it's all in secret and all the quotes are from "undisclosed sources" for fear of death or your family being thrown in a Turkish prison. In American, (at least prior to GWB) we do things differently.

http://www.redorbit.com/news/international/958361/turkish_officials_troops_enter_iraq/index.html
Two senior security officials, speaking on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to speak to the media, said the raid was limited in scope and that it did not constitute the kind of large incursion that Turkish leaders have been discussing in recent weeks.

Did you find an "official" troop number?

Of course not.

Undisclosed sources........and you live with that?

The U.S. military said it could not confirm the reports but was "very concerned."

And so am I.

EDIT: I read the Maylasia link...............
http://malaysia.usembassy.gov/wf/wf1007_turkishtroops.html
Proves my point, and FYI a US press secretaries announcement does not make a "fact". Please go beyond the headline.

As far as the Iraqi Governing Council goes, we have not seen any formal Governing Council statement or communiqué regarding the Turkish decision.

QUESTION: Actually, maybe they didn't come out with a formal statement on Turkey on this recent vote, but the Iraqi foreign minister and many other members of the council have said that they don't believe that any neighboring state should be part of the coalition because they feel as if they would bring their own agendas into their duties and --

MR. BOUCHER: Again, has the Governing Council made a statement? No. Have individuals on the Governing Council said things? Yes. And we expect there to be different views and some debate. This is an issue that, I think, as we said at the time some of those statements were made -- that we will work with the Iraqis, we will work with the Governing Council, and arrive at conclusions, hopefully together, about how Turkish troops might contribute to stability in Iraq.

[EnumaElish]

In American, (at least prior to GWB) we do things differently.Absolutely (and I take exception the "prior to GWB" bit); that's why I think much of this is "old news."

[kach22i]

Absolutely (and I take exception the "prior to GWB" bit); that's why I think much of this is "old news."

Unless a government acknowledges it (ours, theirs whatever), and the press verifies it, how can anything be considered "old news"?

Allow me provide a few examples............................

US acknowledges torture at Guantanamo; in Iraq, Afghanistan - UN
http://www.forbes.com/work/feeds/afx/2005/06/24/afx2110388.html
GENEVA (AFX) - Washington has, for the first time, acknowledged to the United Nations that prisoners have been tortured at US detention centres in Guantanamo Bay, as well as Afghanistan and Iraq, a UN source said.

TIA now verifies flight of Saudis Tampa International Airport
http://www.sptimes.com/2004/06/09/Tampabay/TIA_now_verifies_flig.shtml
TAMPA - Two days after the Sept. 11 attacks, with most of the nation's air traffic still grounded, a small jet landed at Tampa International Airport, picked up three young Saudi men and left.

The men, one of them thought to be a member of the Saudi royal family, were accompanied by a former FBI agent and a former Tampa police officer on the flight to Lexington, Ky.

The Saudis then took another flight out of the country. The two ex-officers returned to TIA a few hours later on the same plane.

For nearly three years, White House, aviation and law enforcement officials have insisted the flight never took place and have denied published reports and widespread Internet speculation about its purpose.

But now, at the request of the National Commission on Terrorist Attacks, TIA officials have confirmed that the flight did take place and have supplied details.

See?

We all feel terrible about the truth, but we feel good about knowing about it.

[kach22i]

[quote Originally Posted by SUZAN FRASER, Associated Press Writer
In Washington, President Bush said the United States was making clear to Turkey it should not send a massive number of troops into Iraq.

Bush said Turkey has had troops stationed in Iraq "for quite a while."

"We don't think it's in their interest to send more troops in."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071017/ap_on_re_mi_ea/turkey[/QUOTE]

The quote in the article was different yesterday, they reworded it and added information. Misleading information I think, they are lying to us again, it's a much larger and explosive situation.

Originally Posted by SUZAN FRASER, Associated Press Writer........edited the next day?
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071017/ap_on_re_mi_ea/turkey
Bush said Turkey has had troops stationed in northern Iraq "for quite a while," a reference to about 1,500 soldiers deployed for years to monitor the rebel Kurdistan Workers' Party, or PKK, with the permission of Iraqi Kurd authorities.

[J77]

Shouldn't this thread be entitled "Problems in Northern Iraq"?

[kach22i]

Shouldn't this thread be entitled "Problems in Northern Iraq"?

The Anatolia peninsula (modern Turkey), the Eastern Turkey/Western Armenia part (including Mt Ararat where Noah's arc landed) and the northern part of Iraq are the historic lands of ancient Armenia. The mostly nomadic Kurds of the time replaced the Armenians (as reward for their help in killing Armenians) who were ran off their land or murdered in place during the Armenian genocide of 1915.

Call it what you want, the area is deep in history and the history of disputes.

Some old maps on these webpages:

http://www.littlearmenia.com/html/little_armenia/armenian_history.asp

http://www.richardsmith.net/armenia/sako.html

Notice all the "B.C." dates.

[J77]

...but I thought the crux of the immediate problem was the Turkish troups going into Northern Iraq, after the PKK.

ie. In Iraqi terms, the North is quite stable. Hence why the US doesn't want any more problems on their already overflowing plate.

[kach22i]

...but I thought the crux of the immediate problem was the Turkish troups going into Northern Iraq, after the PKK.

ie. In Iraqi terms, the North is quite stable. Hence why the US doesn't want any more problems on their already overflowing plate.
Well as the edited by mysterious powers the AP story indicated there are already at least 1,500 Turkish troops in Iraq.............and GWB has admited they have "been there for a while".

So now the "immediate problem" seems to be a political one between the USA and Turkey and the Kurds and the elected Iraqis in power.

Situation normal AFUA.

[EnumaElish]

The Anatolia peninsula (modern Turkey), the western part (including Mt Ararat where Noah's arc landed) and the northern part of Iraq are the historic lands of ancient Armenia. You mean, the Eastern part. Otherwise you'll need to sort it out with the Greeks.

[kach22i]

You mean, the Eastern part. Otherwise you'll need to sort it out with the Greeks.
I did write Eastern.

Good catch, I was thinking one thing and typing another. The correction is in Italics now.

Eastern Turkey/Western Armenia

.........and yes the Greeks were all over the place including the middle upper part too. They left some nice ruins, not all of which have been bulldozed away by the Turkish government.

[EnumaElish]

.........and yes the Greeks were all over the place including the middle upper part too. They left some nice ruins, not all of which have been bulldozed away by the Turkish government.Or passively left to rot, or expatriated by the British...

[russ_watters]

Looks like Turkey is going in!
http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/10/17/turkey.iraq/index.html I can't say I blame them - I wouldn't even say what they are doing is wrong. This is a not-too-uncommon situation where a group is using a country as a staging ground for attacks on a neighbor and that country is doing nothing to stop them. IMO, that gives the country that is being attacked the right to enter the other country to stop them.

IMO, American incursion into countries neighboring Vietnam should have been legal as well (I'm not sure what the law actually says about such things). Same goes for recent American incursions into Pakistan.

[Art]

...but I thought the crux of the immediate problem was the Turkish troups going into Northern Iraq, after the PKK.

ie. In Iraqi terms, the North is quite stable. Hence why the US doesn't want any more problems on their already overflowing plate.The vote in the Turkish parliament is largely symbolic. There have been 23 large scale incursions into N Iraq by Turkish forces since 1997 and they already have a military base in N Iraq manned by 1500 troops which has been there since 1997 so it is hard to see what difference this resolution will make in operational terms.

It seems more designed to elevate the problem of Kurd separatists in the minds of the US and Iraqi gov'ts. Iran has the same problem with the PKK trying to carve a homeland out of it's territory too, with according to Seymour Hersh, US and Israeli backing who see an opportunity to destabilize Iran however this 'support' for a terrorist group is also having an unintended destabilizing effect on Turkey.

[J77]

So it's just hype to get everyone in on cracking down on the PKK?

I'm off to Istanbul in a week or so, it'll be interesting to see what the news says up in that small corner of Turkey.

(On another note, I'd love someday to climb Ararat -- an impressive sight!)

[kach22i]

So it's just hype to get everyone in on cracking down on the PKK?

I'm off to Istanbul in a week or so, it'll be interesting to see what the news says up in that small corner of Turkey.

(On another note, I'd love someday to climb Ararat -- an impressive sight!)

I know from TV programs that troops are stationed there to prevent rouge or "want-a-be" archaeologist from crawling all over it trying to find evidence of Noah's arc. It's been a source of fustration for scientist and the religious alike.

[kach22i]

There have been 23 large scale incursions into N Iraq by Turkish forces since 1997 and they already have a military base in N Iraq manned by 1500 troops which has been there since 1997

Since I have had difficulty in the past finding accurate or verifiable information on this, could you please direct me to a few links to support the statement?

I believe the statements are true, just want supporting data.

Cheers.

[Art]

Since I have had difficulty in the past finding accurate or verifiable information on this, could you please direct me to a few links to support the statement?

I believe the statements are true, just want supporting data.

Cheers.here you are, a cross section from 3 continents http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/frontpage/2007/1018/1192565704859.html

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,22600315-1702,00.html

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-turkey18oct18,1,1987092.story?track=rss&ctrack=1&cset=true

If you google on the key terms I used in my post you'll find dozens more.

[kach22i]

here you are, a cross section from 3 continents http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/frontpage/2007/1018/1192565704859.html

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,22600315-1702,00.html

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-turkey18oct18,1,1987092.story?track=rss&ctrack=1&cset=true

If you google on the key terms I used in my post you'll find dozens more.
I did a very extensive search back in 2003, I'm tellling you it was like pulling teeth to get any information at all.

I had to register to read the LA Times article, other than that every looks good, thanks.

[EnumaElish]

SIRNAK, Turkey - Kurdish rebels ambushed a military unit near Turkey's border with Iraq early Sunday, killing 12 soldiers and increasing pressure on the Turkish government to stage attacks against guerrilla camps in Iraq.

Iraq's president, a Kurd, ordered Kurdish guerrillas to lay down their weapons or leave, but Turkey's deputy prime minister said words were no longer enough: "We are expecting concrete steps from them."


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071021/ap_on_re_mi_ea/turkey_kurds

[kach22i]

An interesting article from TIME / CNN.

Behind Turkey's Kurdish Problem
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1675165,00.html?xid=rss-topstories
And a Kurdistan is a major red line for Turkey. Even the word is taboo.

[hagopbul]

in the Turkey some time it is a costume to kill some one and escape the punishment by giving the mission to a child or a teenager.i mean that hrant dink is killed by the turkis government.

[EnumaElish]

in the Turkey some time it is a costume to kill some one and escape the punishment by giving the mission to a child or a teenager.i mean that hrant dink is killed by the turkis government.Was he killed by a child or a teenager?

At the end of the day anything's possible; including CIA assassinating John F. Kennedy & Martin Luther King.

[kach22i]

in the Turkey some time it is a costume to kill some one and escape the punishment by giving the mission to a child or a teenager.i mean that hrant dink is killed by the turkis government.

The pictures and the way the mater was handled sure did not help appearences much.

Murder trial begins with defence lawyer calling the prosecutors Armenian bastards"! Observe justice in Turkey!
http://www.zimbio.com/Ogun+Samast/articles/12/Murder+trial+begins+defence+lawyer+calling


Hrant Dink's killer: I am not sorry
http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/english/5817465.asp?gid=74


murderer of Hrant Dink was treated as a hero with the police officers taking photos with the murderer with the Turkish flag as a backdrop
http://iararat.wordpress.com/2007/02/01/hrant-dink%E2%80%99s-murderer-treated-as-hero-under-arrest/

Scandal in Turkey over photographs of police posing with alleged killer of journalist

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/02/02/europe/EU-GEN-Turkey-Journalist-Killed.php
ISTANBUL, Turkey: The Turkish media published photographs and video on Friday of police and military police officers posing with the alleged killer of an ethnic Armenian journalist, as newspapers denounced it as "hero treatment" of the suspect.

The photographs show 17-year-old nationalist Ogun Samast, holding out a Turkish flag and posing with officers, some in uniform. Behind Samast a poster with another Turkish flag carries the words of Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, the revered founder of modern Turkey: "The nation's land is sacred. It cannot be left to fate."

Samast is charged with the Jan.19 killing of Hrant Dink, a 52-year-old ethnic Armenian journalist who had angered Turkish nationalists with repeated assertions that the mass killings of Armenians around the time of World War I was genocide.

The Turkish media was outraged by the photographs and video. "Shoulder to shoulder with the triggerman: suspected killer Samast was given the hero treatment," the Sabah daily reported on its front page.


Pictures - three in series: Killer in middle, police on each side posing.
http://www.amnistia.net/news/articles/genarmen/genarmen800.htm

[verafloyd]

I'll chip in. Don't you think that turning the thread into a hate propaganda is equally anti-democratic as what fanatic nationalist Turks do in Turkey? At one hand there are teenagers killing an author for nothing and blaming the people of the same ethnic identity for bearing the same "poisonous" thoughts in their minds, and on the other, there are "fighters of democracy" arrogating the mistakes of limited number of people to a whole nation. This is not democracy. This is just an example of distorting the truth.

Since you're capable of finding links supporting your thesis in Hrant Dink case I wonder how you can miss thousands of people demonstrating against the murderers of Hrant only a few hours after the murder.

How come that you equate Kurds to the PKK and still have not written even a single word about the Kurds killed by the PKK just because they refused to provide supply? I'm having difficulty in understanding why you are not still questioning why the PKK in the past has targeted doctors and teachers working in the region. I wonder how you would define an organisation claiming to fight for the rights of the Kurdish citizens of a country but still feeling ok when poisoning water depots and dams (that feeds a city where the population is dominated by the Kurdish citizens) just to make the military facility run out of fresh water.

No sir. You are not trying to discuss anything. You are doing hate propaganda.

Regards,
verafloyd

[kach22i]

I'll chip in. Don't you think that turning the thread into a hate propaganda

I guess you are talking to me, let me say I catch most of what you are saying, while other parts are rather fuzzy.

When "hagopbul" posted that the Turkish government may of had a hand in Hrant Dink's murder I took it upon myself to supply some links which could support that thought and never stated that I was going to open up another can of worms and show all sides or aspects of a story. That would take a book, maybe several.

A crowd of over 100,000 Turks marching in the streets and carrying signs (and not all of them marching were of Armenian descent) saying "We are all Hrant Dink" is inspiring and heart warming to say the least. There is hope, there are good people, good Turks, good Armenians marching together.

The pictures don't lie, sorry they offend you, they offend me too but must be seen as the truth shall be known.

I'm not on the side of the PKK, I'm not on Turkey's side, I wish the world would of let Iraq alone, we all would have been better off.

[chemisttree]

Except for the Kurds.

[kach22i]

Except for the Kurds.
True, but you have to admit the Kurds had a good thing with the "NO-FLY-ZONE" enforced and Saddam not allowed to take troops into the area for fear of US air strikes.

This is the era which started the Kurds having their own oil money flowing and lots of traffic and trade over the Turkish border.

I think the trade and money flowing between the unofficial Kurdish nation and the Turks is why the Turkish govenment did not want the US to make war on Saddam and use Turkish bases to do so.

Just an observation, correct me if I'm wrong.

[EnumaElish]

I think the trade and money flowing between the unofficial Kurdish nation and the Turks is why the Turkish govenment did not want the US to make war on Saddam and use Turkish bases to do so.It seemed like it was a cost/benefit analysis that had "war, disruption & refugees" on the one hand, and "incentives" on the other hand. It was a very close call in the Turkish Parliament, and it lost only by one vote.

High-level Iraqi government officials also had visited Turkey at the brink of the vote; they probably tried to persuade the Turkish government that Iraq did not have WMDs and it was all a pretext to invade Iraq. They may have played the "good neighbors" and "muslim brothers" cards. But it seemed like economic factors played a major role in the end.

[verafloyd]

I think the trade and money flowing between the unofficial Kurdish nation and the Turks is why the Turkish govenment did not want the US to make war on Saddam and use Turkish bases to do so.

Just an observation, correct me if I'm wrong.

Not exactly. Erdogan government tried so hard to make Turkey a part of the war or at least provide the help the US needed. The opposition and the 94% of the public were against a war in Iraq. The huge antiwar demonstration held in Ankara with the participation of around one million citizens proved to be the one of the largest act of protest after the 1980 era thus making a great deal of the government parliaments take side with the opposition.

If it were trade and money, the Turkish government would support the US against Saddam as Saddam's authority was a great barricade preventing Turkish companies making business in the region. Not surprisingly, today, since Saddam is gone, the trade life in North Iraq is dominated by Turkish companies.

It seemed like it was a cost/benefit analysis that had "war, disruption & refugees" on the one hand, and "incentives" on the other hand. It was a very close call in the Turkish Parliament, and it lost only by one vote.
Unlike the common belief in the international society, Turkey's attitude towards refugees have been positive. During the First Gulf War, the EU spent $30 million while Turkey alone spent $270 million. Also, the army had its soldiers work actively in building temporary cities for the incoming refugees.

And a not-so-important note: It was not one vote but four :)

High-level Iraqi government officials also had visited Turkey at the brink of the vote; they probably tried to persuade the Turkish government that Iraq did not have WMDs and it was all a pretext to invade Iraq. They may have played the "good neighbors" and "muslim brothers" cards. But it seemed like economic factors played a major role in the end.
Even the US-lover Erdogan government never questioned whether Iraq had WMDs or not. People in Turkey all knew that it was just a lie to invade Iraq for oil. That said, I doubt if the visit you mentioned played a more important role than the demonstration I mentioned above.

EDIT: Typo

[chemisttree]

True, but you have to admit the Kurds had a good thing with the "NO-FLY-ZONE" enforced and Saddam not allowed to take troops into the area for fear of US air strikes.

Aw c'mon! Now you're just making stuff up! That second statement just cracks me up!

[kach22i]

Aw c'mon! Now you're just making stuff up! That second statement just cracks me up!

Iraqi no-fly zones
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraqi_no-fly_zones

What the link above does not tell you is the attacks on ground targets such as convoys by A-10's, F-15's and attack helicopters. There was a case I believe of reporters being killed by mistake in at least one such "friendly fire" incident.

The intent of such air cover was to prevent the slaughter that happened after the first Gulf War under Bush 41/senior. In the south and to the very public and on record urging of George Bush (senior).

NPR did several in depth radio specials on this topic back when Bill Clinton was president.

1991 uprisings in Iraq
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_uprisings_in_Iraq
Although they presented a serious threat to his regime, Iraqi President Saddam Hussein was able to suppress the rebellions with massive force and maintain power, as the expected intervention by the United States never materialized. The uprisings were eventually crushed by the Iraqi Republican Guard, followed by mass reprisals and intensified forced relocation of Marsh Arabs, including draining of the marshlands. In few weeks tens of thousands of civilians were killed.

I don't need to make anything up, the truth is quite gruesome enough.

[chemisttree]

True, but you have to admit the Kurds had a good thing with the "NO-FLY-ZONE" enforced and Saddam not allowed to take troops into the area for fear of US air strikes.

The no fly zone had absolutely nothing to do with forbidding Saddam from moving military forces into the northern Kurdish areas of Iraq. In fact he did just that. He established antiaircraft positions in the north and south zones and routinely shot at US warplanes patrolling the zone.

According to two State Department reports in 1994 and 1996, the creation and military enforcement of the "no-fly zone" in fact did not protect the Iraqi Kurdish populations from potential assaults by Iraqi forces, which--after crushing the March 1991 rebellion--had pulled back and were focused on post-war reconstruction and protecting the regime in Baghdad. In addition, the straight latitudinal demarcations of the no-fly zone did not correspond with the areas of predominant Kurdish populations, excluding large Kurdish-populated areas which had previously been subjected to air attacks (such as Hallabja) and including predominantly Arab areas which had not been a target of Iraqi government forces. Seeing what had began as an apparent humanitarian effort evolve into an excuse for continuing a low-level war against Iraq, France soon dropped out of the enforcement efforts.

At the end of August 1996, factional fighting broke out between the PUK and the KDP in Iraqi Kurdistan. Concerned about possible advances by the Iranian-backed PUK, tens of thousands of Iraqi forces headed north in an effort to force PUK militiamen out of the key northern city of Irbil. In response, President Bill Clinton ordered a series of major bombing raids and missile attacks against Iraq. Despite concerns over the illegality of this unilateral intervention and the possibility of becoming embroiled in an inter-Kurdish conflict, the American air and missile strikes received widespread bipartisan support in Washington. This supposed rush to the defense of the Kurds may have been just a pretext, however: while the incursion by Iraqi government forces took place in the north, most of the U.S. strikes took place in the central and southern part of Iraq--hundreds of miles from the Iraqi advance.

http://www.fpif.org/fpiftxt/4670

The no fly zone in the north was originally authorized by the UN to prevent Iraq from interfering with humanitarian air drops to the tens of thousands fleeing toward the Turkish border. These Kurds were alone in the freezing mountains without shelter having fled persecution in Iraq and were turned back at the Turkish border.

[kach22i]

The no fly zone had absolutely nothing to do with forbidding Saddam from moving military forces into the northern Kurdish areas of Iraq.

No massive troop movements would be tollerated and no moving of anti-aircraft missiles..................sounds like "military forces" were limited in their movements to me, very limited.

I'll admit that I don't know the exact language of the resolutions and agreements which were enforced or supposed to be enforced in regards to Saddam. The actual way things were practiced and unfolded are far more telling than pieces of ignored paper anyway.

[EnumaElish]

ISTANBUL, Turkey - Kurdish rebels released eight Turkish soldiers in northern Iraq on Sunday two weeks after they were captured in a deadly ambush that intensified pressure on the Turkish government to attack the guerrillas in Iraq.

The release comes on the eve of a meeting between Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan and President Bush in Washington to agree on measures against the rebels, and avert a cross-border offensive into a relatively stable part of Iraq.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071104/ap_on_re_mi_ea/turkey_soldiers

[kach22i]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071104/ap_on_re_mi_ea/turkey_soldiers

"We released these soldiers to make clear that we want to solve the Kurdish problem with peaceful means and methods."

Not the words of a typical "terrorist organization".

Will the PKK keep a low profile untill things blow over and then go back to killing Turks?

It's hard to be on either side, hope they can stop killing each other for a while.

[verafloyd]

Not the words of a typical "terrorist organization".
And this is "proving" that the PKK is not a terrorist organization? Cool. So basically what you're saying is that it's ok to kill innocent civillians, trade heroin, set villages on fire, foray hospitals and schools to take doctors and teachers out to kill them before the eyes of all the civillians around, destroy the factories in the region, etc. as long as you keep saying the same nursery rhyme "the PKK wants to solve the Kurdish problem with peaceful means and methods", right?

The one and only truth about the PKK is that they were once founded as a political organisation but after 23 years they turned into a giant terrorist organisation responsible for the death of more than 35,000 Kurdish and Turkish people. They don't care about the Kurdish people living in the South-Eastern Turkey.

If they did, they wouldn't damage the development of the region by sabotaging the infrastructure and economically important facilities.

If they did, they wouldn't force the people to give their property holdings to the PKK.

If they did, they wouldn't kill the doctors who heal the people there for free.

If they did, they wouldn't kill the teachers who work hard to take the people of the region to a better future.

If they did, they wouldn't poison the fresh water supplies of a whole city.

If they did, they wouldn't kill the sisters and brothers of Kurdish people who refuse to join that terrorist organisation.

If they did, they wouldn't form mine fields next to the cities.

What the PKK care about is the money as big as $86 million annual that they make out of heroin, weapons and burglary.

You don't agree? Then you tell me what the PKK did for the good of Kurdish people.

[kach22i]

And this is "proving" that the PKK is not a terrorist organization?
No, not at all.

The list of terrible things the PKK has been doing is similar to what the Turkish govenment has been doing to the Kurds, so much so that I had to do a double take. Using that logic the USA should declare the current Turkish govenment a terrorist organization.

There are no clean hands in this situation, no right side, no 100% wrong side.

Like I said before I can't be on either side and the whole thing is a shame.

[verafloyd]

The list of terrible things the PKK has been doing is similar to what the Turkish govenment has been doing to the Kurds
Excuse me, is it me or are you claiming that the Turkish government has been doing things like sabotaging the infrastructure that it has spent a fortune to built, been killing the doctors and teachers it has raised and sent to the region to heal and educate the people there, been poisoning the fresh water supplies of its own people (and the army for your record), been killing the people who refuses to join -let's say- the army, been forming mine fields next to places where its own citizens live, and been trading heroin?!? :!!)

And still you are saying that you're on neither side? How else can someone be on one side! :confused: Please don't think that people following this thread are fools or something. You're constantly against Turkey. You certainly have the right to do that. But at least keep to your thoughts.

Also, I'm waiting for your answer to the question I asked in my previous post:
You don't agree? Then you tell me what the PKK did for the good of Kurdish people.

Regards,
verafloyd

[kach22i]

First off I never said that the PKK has does any good for anyone.

Secondly NPR has been following the situation for years. Anyone who has turned on their radio may of caught the same news coverage as myself.

In short the Turkish government has...........

1. Ordered whole Kurdish villages in eastern Turkey to clear out so that the area may be purged. Wiping entire communities off the map as if they never existed is sanctioned Turkish policy. Sometimes without any warning (middle of the night) the Turkish troops with buldozers have leveled homes with families still in them. If this sounds bad, remember that Isreal has been reported to do the same and the US in Iraq as well. The intent is to eliminate terrorist support network, it's an ugly business no matter who does it.

2. When giving fair warning does not seem to work with the Kurds, the Turks have resorted to blowing up dams to flood an occupied valley killing hundereds in the process. If the govenment wishes to claim/reclaim an area or rid it of Kurds they have the right to do so, or so they tell the western powers.

The list is really too long, I have to get some work done.............look it up.

No clean hands on this one like I keep saying.

[verafloyd]

Ordered whole Kurdish villages in eastern Turkey to clear out so that the area may be purged. Wiping entire communities off the map as if they never existed is sanctioned Turkish policy.
In my hometown, which is in the Eastern Anatolia, there are at least seven villages next to my village within a range of say 2 kms. 3 of those villages have purely Kurdish population, majority of some other one is Kurdish and in the rest of the villages either the majority is Turkish or Turks and Kurds are in almost equal numbers. None of the Kurdish villages have ever been cleared out as you claimed. Many Kurdish villages have been left by their residents during the era 1984-1997 due to terrorism but what you "forget to mention" -as you always do- is that the Turks had to leave their villages, too. It is not surprising as it's not easy to leave if everyday you have to think what to do when in the middle of the night a PKK terrorist come to your home to ask for food, money, or your boy/girl or they destroy any form of improvement in your city to claim that the government is not working at all despite the fact that the amount of government investment per capita in Northern Turkey is much more lower than that in the east of Turkey.

Sometimes without any warning (middle of the night) the Turkish troops with buldozers have leveled homes with families still in them.Yeah, then the Turkish troops used their laser guns to blow all that is still alive and then an army of orcs and uruks marched singing songs of victory!

Are you kidding? Are you aware that you are accusing a whole nation with made-up events? Please share with us any evidence you have. Do you really think that 70 million Turks and Kurds would just sit in silence of their home if the Turkish army were to do such an abject thing? What you can't understand is that the Turks and Kurds have been living in these realms for many hundred years in peace. The PKK is a terrorist organisation that have been used by different forces to destabilize the region and destroy the peace. Their revenue of $80 million annual is a proof of that. If the PKK's purpose was to give the Kurds a better future they could have used that money for the good of the Kurds, not for making their leaders richer.

the Turks have resorted to blowing up dams to flood an occupied valley killing hundereds in the process.Of course! Turkey is such a rich country that blowing dams up to kill people is a nice way to have some fun. I'm now sure that you are actually kidding. Speaking of the dams, you, again, didn't know that the most expensive investment in the history of Turkish Republic is the South-Eastern Project (GAP in Turkish, if you happen to want to google it), did you?. Let me tell before you ask, my friend, it was not a defense project to build the ultimate gun to kill all the Kurds there and left the Turks alive. It is the largest dam in Turkey and thanks to it the south-east of Turkey is now capable of aqueus agriculture (if it's the word). And guess who have kept sabotaging the project for years! (Hint: No, not the government.)

The list is really too long, I have to get some work donePlease don't hesitate to share your made-up stories with us when you finish making up them.

EDIT: I realized that the last 6 posts are by you and me. I don't want to turn this topic into a discussion between you and I only. If you like we can continue the discussion through pms.

[kach22i]

NPR:
AN OPEN PRISON......says NPR reporter when describing eastern "Kurdish" Turkey.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=15926809

More:
http://www.npr.org/search.php?text=kurds+turkey

Go back a few years, past the recent crisis, the truth shall be known.

Oh, and when the reporter says that the Turkish govenment "blew it" when the head of the PKK was caught and convicted back in 1999, that it was a chance for peace. What he meant to say is the the head of the PKK told his fighters to lay down their arms and go home, and do not fight anymore. In exchange the head of the PKK would spend the rest of his life in a Turkish prison (how lovely). The govenment then executed him and stepped up the persecution campaign of terror against the Kurds. They "blew it" alright.

[EnumaElish]

Oh, and when the reporter says that the Turkish govenment "blew it" when the head of the PKK was caught and convicted back in 1999, that it was a chance for peace. What he meant to say is the the head of the PKK told his fighters to lay down their arms and go home, and do not fight anymore. In exchange the head of the PKK would spend the rest of his life in a Turkish prison (how lovely). The govenment then executed him and stepped up the persecution campaign of terror against the Kurds. They "blew it" alright.No, he is alive, under solitary confinement in a maximum security prison in Turkey. A lot of people would have liked to see him executed but had to contend themselves with wishing him a long life.

I think the latest flare up should be seen within the context of significant political gains that Kurdish political candidates and parties showed in the last parliamentary election. I think right now the essential chasm is the one between those (Kurds and Turks) who believe in the democratic - constitutional - political process, and others who don't.

[kach22i]

I think right now the essential chasm is the one between those (Kurds and Turks) who believe in the democratic - constitutional - political process, and others who don't.

I'd like to hear from a Kurd who is living in that area on that. That comment about it being "an open prison" is not very encouraging.

Abdullah Ocalan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdullah_%C3%96calan
Since his capture Öcalan has been held under solitary confinement as the only prisoner on the İmralı Island in the Turkish Sea of Marmara. Despite the fact that all other prisoners formerly at İmralı were transferred to other prisons, there are still over 1000 Turkish military personnel stationed there guarding him. He was sentenced to death, but this sentence was commuted to life-long aggravated imprisonment when the death penalty was abolished in Turkey in August 2002.[15] No one has been executed in Turkey since 1984.[16]

He was sentenced to death...............not executed, my mistake.

History lesson:
http://www.answers.com/topic/ottoman-wars-in-europe?cat=technology

[EnumaElish]

I'd like to hear from a Kurd who is living in that area on that.Fair. But the election results are there, and my point is, they may have turned out to be more, not less, of a reason to re-ignite armed conflict in the region.History lesson:
http://www.answers.com/topic/ottoman-wars-in-europe?cat=technologyDid you mean this as a commentary on Kurds, or more generally?

[kach22i]

Fair. But the election results are there, and my point is, they may have turned out to be more, not less, of a reason to re-ignite armed conflict in the region.Did you mean this as a commentary on Kurds, or more generally?

Who's election results?

That link was just to remind us of some history, when Turkey is prevented from going west (entry into the EU this time) it attacks to the east. Not much has changed culturally in hundreds of years.

The links below mention regions in Turkey and minorities I have not even heard of before, I am far from being an expert on the topic or that region, but I can read and learn.

Kurds, Turks and the Alevi revival in Turkey
http://www.let.uu.nl/~Martin.vanBruinessen/personal/publications/Alevi_revival.htm

DESTRUCTION OF KURDISH VILLAGES
http://users.westnet.gr/~cgian/villages.htm

Backgrounder on Repression of the Kurds in Turkey
http://www.hrw.org/backgrounder/eca/turkey/kurd.htm
Due to obstacles to reporting from the emergency region, the program of village destruction has gone underreported in the Turkish and world press.

It is said the Kurds have no friends, Turkey should be careful not to give them too much western sympathy because of their military actions.

[EnumaElish]

Who's election results?Press Release

Turkish Elections

History in the Making

Since 1994 Kurdish politicians have been unable to win any seats in Turkish Parliament, because of the 10% barrier. Based on Turkish laws, to win seats in parliament a party must have a minimum of 10% of the national vote. The Kurdish parties failed to attain the 10% required by law.

However, in this recent election the Democratic Society Party (DTP) successfully managed to go around this law by asking their candidates to participate in the election as independents. Although the Kurds should be represented by 25-30% of the representatives, Kurdish candidates won 20 seats, a number great enough to create the first Kurdish block in Turkish parliament.

The success serves as an important test of the democratic environment in Turkey for both DTP and the Turkish public's political maturity.

...

We anticipate that their presence in the Turkish parliament will bring new hope and changes; where the voice of our nation will be heard clearly to bring changes to the Turkish constitution democratically ...http://www.kncna.org/docs/k_viewarticle.asp?date=8/1/2007

I reitereate my earlier point: the deeper divide right now is between individuals (Turks and Kurds) who believe in the constitutional democratic processes and those who don't believe in them and who may attempt to sabotage them.

EURASIA INSIGHT

TURKEY: KURDISH PARTY PREPARES FOR RETURN TO PARLIAMENT

Yigal Schleifer 7/27/07

Using a successful campaign strategy that saw all its candidates running as independents in order to circumvent Turkey’s high election threshold, the pro-Kurdish Democratic Society Party (DTP) managed to get 22 of its members elected in the recent Turkish elections, enough to allow the stealth candidates to regroup in parliament under their party’s banner.

Although some forecasts had predicted the party winning as many as 35 seats in the July 22 election, the seats won represent the largest electoral victory ever by a Kurdish party and the first time a pro-Kurdish party will sit in parliament since 1991.

The victory, analysts say, serves as an important test of both the party’s and the Turkish public’s political maturity. It will also present a good opportunity for making progress in resolving the lingering Kurdish problem. [For background see the Eurasia Insight archive].

"If we had from an earlier date allowed the Kurds representation in parliament, I think we would have been much more successful in integrating the Kurdish demands into the parliamentary process, so this is a new window of opportunity to do that," says Sahin Alpay, a professor of political science at Istanbul’s Bahcesehir University. "But there is also a risk of them becoming a source of conflict in the parliament."

Added Alpay: "The fact that their views and demands will be heard in parliament is a welcome thing. … It’s another important step forward towards the consolidation of the democratization of Turkey."

The DTP’s presence in parliament, though small, is certain to test Turkish public attitudes, especially coming at a time when the separatist Kurdistan Workers’ Party (PKK) has been increasing its attacks against security forces in Turkey’s predominantly-Kurdish southeast, and the Turkish military has threatened to invade northern Iraq to go after the organization’s bases there. ...http://www.eurasianet.org/departments/insight/articles/eav072707a.shtml

That link was just to remind us of some history, when Turkey is prevented from going west (entry into the EU this time) it attacks to the east.That's an incisive insight. IMO it is an argument for backing Turkey's EU membership, although you may feel differently.

[kach22i]

RE:
http://www.eurasianet.org/index.shtml

Interesting news site, I've bookmarked it.

Until today by reading the articles posted, I did not even know how the Kurds got representation and the 10% law.

Progress is slow moving but it happens sometimes.

[EnumaElish]

...

On Monday, President Bush met Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan in Washington and promised him that the United States would share military intelligence in the hunt for PKK rebels. Turkey credited U.S. help in the 1999 capture in Kenya of Abdullah Ocalan, the founder of the PKK who is now serving a life sentence on a prison island in Turkey.

Without providing names, the Pentagon also has said 10 PKK members are in a U.S. "most-wanted" database, meaning American forces have had standing orders for some time to pick them up if they are found. Citing Iraqi officials, Turkish media have said Turkey delivered a list of 150 alleged PKK members to Iraq and demanded their extradition.

The PKK, which launched guerrilla warfare in 1984, started out with a Marxist ideology mixed with Kurdish nationalism, but it later softened its demands and dropped the idea of an independent homeland. The rebels now say they seek more rights for Turkey's Kurdish minority, which lives primarily in the country's southeast and in immigrant communities in large cities.

The United States and Europe label the PKK as a terrorist organization. Turkey dismisses the group as a murderous gang and refuses to negotiate with it.

Ocalan drew comparisons with Stalin for his harsh control over the group, often killing or imprisoning members who deviated from his edicts. ...http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071107/ap_on_re_mi_ea/turkey_rebel_leaders

[Art]

I wonder if this could develop into a civil war in Turkey? Albeit probably fairly one-sided as the Kurds are such a minority though the Islamic factor could complicate things making it a 3 way conflict.

BBC NEWS
Cold welcome for freed Turkish soldiers
By Sarah Rainsford
BBC News, Istanbul

The release of eight soldiers after two weeks held hostage by the PKK has not been celebrated in Turkey.

Some here have branded them cowards - even traitors.

Justice Minister Mehmet Ali Sahin told an audience at Ankara University on Monday that he could not be entirely happy about the soldiers' release.

They were captured in an ambush by the PKK close to the Iraqi border on 21 October. Twelve other soldiers were killed in what was the worst clash of its kind with Kurdish separatists in many years.

"No member of the Turkish armed forces should have found themselves in such a situation," the minister began.
<snip>
Unlike recent hostage crises involving Israeli and British military members, here in Turkey the government, military and media played this one very low-key.

One explanation is concern, in the current nationalistic climate, about the potential for clashes between Turks and Kurds in Turkish cities.
<snip>
n a further blow to Turkish pride, pictures from the handover of the eight soldiers have now made their way into local newspapers.

They show three members of the Turkish parliament from the pro-Kurdish DTP party standing beside a poster of Abdullah Ocalan, the imprisoned PKK founder. In others, the MPs are seen greeting the hostage-takers with handshakes and kisses.

Though the DTP insist they were present for humanitarian reasons, to aid the soldiers' release, they are now being investigated on suspicion of supporting a terrorist organisation.

[EnumaElish]

I wonder if this could develop into a civil war in Turkey? Albeit probably fairly one-sided as the Kurds are such a minority though the Islamic factor could complicate things making it a 3 way conflict.Is what you are asking "can/will Turks massacre Turkey's Kurds?"

[Art]

Is what you are asking "can/will Turks massacre Turkey's Kurds?"I'm not suggesting they would set out with that as a premeditated goal but I could see how it could end up that way through a process of escalation. Civil wars are notoriously nasty.

[EnumaElish]

The Kurdistan Workers Party (PKK), whose bases in north Iraq Turkey has threatened to attack, said on Friday it was open to a dialogue that could lead to its downing arms, a news agency close to the rebels reported.

Turkey, like the United States and the European Union, condemns the PKK as a terrorist group and has always refused to talk to PKK guerrillas. It had no immediate response to the party's statement, carried by the Firat news agency.

"We are open to dialogue on starting a process that would totally exclude weapons, based on a political project," the PKK statement said.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20071109/wl_nm/turkey_iraq_pkk_dc

[kach22i]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20071109/wl_nm/turkey_iraq_pkk_dc

TUNCELI, Turkey (Reuters) - The Kurdistan Workers Party (PKK), whose bases in north Iraq Turkey has threatened to attack, said on Friday it was open to a dialogue that could lead to its downing arms, a news agency close to the rebels reported.

Terrorist laying down their arms?

The end must be near.:rofl:

[EnumaElish]

Eight Turkish soldiers freed last week by Kurdish rebels have been charged by the military with disobeying orders in a way that could have led to "catastrophe," a defense lawyer said on Sunday.

...

The soldiers have faced criticism at home since their return and have been accused by some of aiding PKK propaganda.http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20071111/wl_nm/turkey_military_soldiers_dc

[kishtik]

I reitereate my earlier point: the deeper divide right now is between individuals (Turks and Kurds) who believe in the constitutional democratic processes and those who don't believe in them and who may attempt to sabotage them.
That is a valid point. On one hand, we have people who want to close DTP, on the other hand, DTP does not pronounce PKK as a terrorist organization.

[EnumaElish]

That is a valid point. On one hand, we have people who want to close DTP, on the other hand, DTP does not pronounce PKK as a terrorist organization.I think I agree with the Turkish Prime Minister when he says that DTP should be free to carry on its politics within constitutional limits.

[kach22i]

Dang, this is no good.

You know why Turkey would not let the US military pass though that corner of Iraq for the invasion?

As NPR reported at the time and with audiotapes; Turkey had 60,000 troops already there to prevent waves of refugees, which massed there in the first Gulf War.

What was on the audiotape was the sound of Turkish attack helicopters attacking Kurds on the Iraqi side of the border. No one really knew if it was PKK positions or just Iraqi civilians, everyone in town with a gun shot up to the sky to ward off the attacks just the same.

Also reported at the time of the US invasion was that in Iraq at an abandoned airbase there were as many as 100 Turkish tanks standing by. Some think just to intimidate the PKK; others think to stand off the possibility of tens of thousands of fleeing refugees.

No Turkish officials would comment, but Turkish families said their sons had been sent into Iraq and stationed there.

This operation is much more open and meant as a political statement.


UPDATE: 12/18/2007
Turkish army sends soldiers into Iraq
By YAHYA BARZANJI, Associated Press Writer
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071218/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq
It was not clear how long the Turkish soldiers who entered Iraq on Tuesday would stay, but a Turkish government official said they were sent as "reinforcements" to existing Turkish troops stationed further inside Iraq.

"They are going there as reinforcements, they are not returning," the official said on condition of anonymity as he was not authorized to speak to the media.

About 1,200 Turkish military monitors have operated in northern Iraq since 1996 with permission from local authorities. A tank battalion has been stationed at a former airport at the border town of Bamerni and a few other military outposts were scattered in the region. Ankara rotates the troops there.

Everything I said has been proven true and accurate. I just did not recall the name of the border town of "Bamerni". Maybe the name of the town was never in the original radio report on NPR a few years ago, don't know, and not a major issue.

[EnumaElish]

Apparently today's border-crossing operation has been withdrawn.

Officials: Turkey withdraws from Iraq

By YAHYA BARZANJI, Associated Press Writer 9 minutes ago

KIRKUK, Iraq - Turkey sent hundreds of troops about 1 1/2 miles into northern Iraq early Tuesday in an operation against Kurdish rebels but then withdrew them later in the day, Kurdish officials said.

Jamal Abdullah, a spokesman for the regional Kurdistan government, told The Associated Press that the Turkish troops had withdrawn in the evening.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071218/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq;_ylt=AiT7JYPAyLyJuDbRjpr3qoNvaA8F

[kach22i]

Apparently today's border-crossing operation has been withdrawn.



http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071218/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq;_ylt=AiT7JYPAyLyJuDbRjpr3qoNvaA8F

We only know what they tell us.

Looks like the original 12,000 troops and all those tanks are still there.

Right?

[EnumaElish]

We only know what they tell us.

Looks like the original 12,000 troops and all those tanks are still there.

Right?I thought you posted 1,200. Is it 12,000? Or 1,200?

Regardless, the article you posted said they are there "with permission from local authorities."

[Astronuc]

Turkey Set to Invest in Better Relations With Kurds
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/12/world/europe/12turkey.html

ANKARA, Turkey — Turkey’s government is planning a broad series of investments worth as much as $12 billion in the country’s largely Kurdish southeast, in a new economic effort intended to create jobs and draw young men away from militancy, Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan said.

The program is intended to drain support for the militant Kurdish group, the Kurdistan Workers’ Party, by improving the lives of Turkey’s impoverished Kurdish minority, Mr. Erdogan said in an interview with The New York Times on Tuesday.

As part of the push, the government will dedicate a state television channel to Kurdish language broadcasting, a measure that Kurds in Turkey have sought for years. The Turkish state has imposed severe restrictions on the use of Kurdish, arguing that allowing that freedom would strengthen the Kurds’ desire to form a separate state.
I hope it works. Seems a better and more productive approach than a civil war.

Kurds should be allowed to use their own language and indulge in their own culture, as should any minority.