Black Women-White Men

[Ivan Seeking]

Probably a doomed thread, :biggrin: I thought this was a very striking story.

'Could Mr. Right be white?' More black women consider 'dating out'

For years, Toinetta Jones played the dating game by her mom's strict rule. "Mom always told me, 'Don't you ever bring a white man home,"' recalled Jones, echoing an edict issued by many Southern, black mothers. But at 37, the Alexandria divorcee has shifted to dating "anyone who asks me out," regardless of race.

"I don't sit around dreaming about the perfect black man I'm going to marry," Jones said. Black women around the country also are reconsidering deep-seated reservations toward interracial relationships, reservations rooted in America's history of slavery and segregation.

...Black women on campus largely are surrounded by non-black men: In 2004, 26.5 percent of black males ages 18 to 24 were enrolled in college versus 36.5 percent of black women that age, according to the American Council on Education's most recent statistics. [I wonder how a comparison of majors looks?]

Even after college, Roslyn Holcomb struggled to meet professional black men.

"I wanted to get married (and) have children," she said. "If I was only meeting one guy a year, or every few years, that wasn't going to happen." [continued]
http://www.cnn.com/2007/LIVING/personal/08/06/interracial.dating.ap/index.html

IMO there is little doubt about it: Generally speaking, black men are in trouble, even in the view of black women, which is ironic when we consider that Obama is the first black man who could be elected to the highest office in the land. Even though racial barriers are falling, on the average, black men are struggling as much as ever.

But black men are voicing their own frustrations with women they feel regard them with suspicion. "They treat us all the same," said W. Randy Short, a Washington writer who dates across races. "The rapist on the TV is the same as me."

The disproportionate representation of black Americans in the U.S. criminal justice system is well documented.(17) Blacks comprise 13 percent of the national population, but 30 percent of people arrested, 41 percent of people in jail,(18) and 49 percent of those in prison.(19) Nine percent of all black adults are under some form of correctional supervision (in jail or prison, on probation or parole), compared to two percent of white adults. (20) One in three black men between the ages of 20 and 29 was either in jail or prison, or on parole or probation in 1995.(21) One in ten black men in their twenties and early thirties is in prison or jail. (22) Thirteen percent of the black adult male population has lost the right to vote because of felony disenfranchisement laws.(23)
http://www.hrw.org/reports/2000/usa/Rcedrg00-01.htm

[turbo-1]

My nephew is a lifer in the Navy. His wife is a lifer in the Navy, and when he married her, she already had a daughter. He is white, his wife is black, and his daughter is probably the most attractive and charming lady that I have ever met. She is killer cute.

My nephew is a chief and has been voted "Sailor of the year" for his ship, his group, etc, over and over again. He gets to choose assignments in the Navy, but if he opted out, he would have to fight to come back to rural America and live with his family, even in "liberal" New England. I love my family, and I hate intolerance.

[Ivan Seeking]

Sure, but this is not about intolerance, it is about black women literally giving up on finding an acceptable black husband; of a similar social status. I don't think I have heard of anything quite like this before. At the root of this are the questions: What's happening to black men. And next, why are black women seemingly doing better? And of course one has to wonder about the long term implications. I guess for one, a trend like this will help to brind down racial barriers as mixed families become more common and as the races are diluted.

[turbo-1]

I don't know if she "gave up" on finding a suitable mate who is black, but she got a loving mate who is serious about raising a smart, well-adjusted daughter who isn't afraid to work for what she wants. I'm not sure that there is a whole lot of social import in the "dating out" idea anyway. If you find a person that you click with, their race is not real important to that relationship, though it may have implications with family, friends, etc.

I'm just concerned about the longer-term implications of their eventual retirement. Their pensions would go a lot farther in rural Maine than in San Diego, but interracial couples are rare here, and they would face challenges socially. My wife and I had a house in a fairly nice development, and when an interracial couple bought a house a couple of blocks away, the previous owner (retired state trooper) went around the neighborhood apologizing to people. What an idiot! The new owners are a nice couple. He manages a chain store and his wife operates a day-care center out of their home.

I dated a young black woman in college for a bit. That earned me a lot of grief from a couple of black guys who were interested in her, including one HUGE fellow who wasn't shy about spouting racist crap in the dining hall and other public places. One reason that I lost interest in that woman is that I found out that she held a white co-ed in disdain, seemingly for the same reason - she was dating a black guy. Intolerance comes easy, it seems.

[Ivan Seeking]

I don't know if she "gave up" on finding a suitable mate who is black

That was the entire point of the story: That black women are starting to date white men due to a lack of acceptable black men.

[turbo-1]

That was the entire point of the story: That black women are starting to date white men due to a lack of acceptable black men.I know. The fact is that there are a lot of black male sailors based out of San Diego, and the fact that they're making it in the Navy with the discipline, training requirements, deployments, etc, implies that there might be a lot of decent, eligible black guys there. She ended up with my nephew, though, and they are perfect for each other, and he is a perfect dad for their daughter.

[LydiaAC]

Hello everybody:
I think this is a sort of "diffusion" phenomena. Interracial couples has been always possible but now, they are more probable because barriers are weaker. So, some black women try a white guy and if things work, they marry. However, we see a big flux of black women marrying with white men, because we think that the normal thing would be black women marrying black men and white women marrying white men. Actually, if race were not an issue, we must find that black women choose black or white men in the same proportion. We are very far from that situation.
Nevertheless, I think that the statistics about black men reveal a real problem. Racists make a big fuss about this thing, but the fact that black women do not share the problem proves irrefutably that race has nothing to do. We Mexicans have a similar problem. A work partner said to me that he had a Green Card but he did not want to work in United States because he did not want for his kids be criminals.
I had never understand this Mexican thing to love everybody who is Mexican, independently of behavior. When a Mexican is condemned to death in United States, he is a sort of hero, guilty or not. Mexicans living in United States have preference to make friendship with other Mexicans. Do you think this is right? I think it is not when you prefer a criminal Mexican to a decent American. The isolation of Mexican Americans is apparent when you hear how they speak Spanish. I know people who left Mexico with a College education, speaking Spanish very well and some years later, they speak Spanish like an illiterate, because this is the kind of people who they have exclusive contact.
So, I don't think nobody must be worry about black women marrying white men. What must be a worry is black women marrying criminal black men, only because they are black. If black men lost the advantage to be selected by his race, I am sure they will try harder to be an eligible partner. Men can do any possible thing to have women.
Lydia

[Economist]

Actually, if race were not an issue, we must find that black women choose black or white men in the same proportion.

Not neccessarily true. If there were no racist people and everyone was color blind, you still may find that different races tend to hand out with each other more often and marry within their race more often. Even without racism people may still be likely to live in areas and go to schools that tend to be racially disproportional for various socio-economic reasons that don't depend on racism, discrimination, etc. Therefore, you still may see people tending to marry within their race more often than not.

[LydiaAC]

Hello Economist:
If everyone where colorblind and educational level, hobbies, activities, neighborhoods and languages, were equally distributed, do you think that people would prefer marry within their own race, either?
I think it is possible but must be proven or refuted by some evidence. Maybe sociobiology has something to say.
However, if the equilibrium value is not 50-50, the fact that now we see a flux of black women marrying white men, suggest that the current proportion is not at equilibrium.

When I went to Melbourne, some students of University recommended to me to visit "Casa de Espaņa" when Spanish speaking people reunited. I walked a few blocks to find that, apart from language, they have nothing in common with me. I saw a pool table and I wanted to play and they have problem with that because women "do not play pool". They thought that world is a hard place and Hispanics are doomed to suffer. If I lived in Australia, I am sure I would never have married some of them.
Lydia

[turbo-1]

Maine may be an exception, but here the white woman/black man couples seem to far outnumber the black woman/white man couples.

[Economist]

Hello Economist:
If everyone where colorblind and educational level, hobbies, activities, neighborhoods and languages, were equally distributed, do you think that people would prefer marry within their own race, either?

No. If everything was equally distributed among races, then I think you'd expect that race would make no difference at all, and everyone would be equally likely to marry. However, even in a world without any racism and discrimination I think we would expect to see hobbies, education levels, neighborhoods, etc, somewhat correlated with race for various reasons.

[Astronuc]

No. If everything was equally distributed among races, then I think you'd expect that race would make no difference at all, and everyone would be equally likely to marry. However, even in a world without any racism and discrimination I think we would expect to see hobbies, education levels, neighborhoods, etc, somewhat correlated with race for various reasons. Probably culture/ethnicity would be major factors.

to live in areas and go to schools that tend to be racially disproportional for various socio-economic reasons that don't depend on racism, discrimination, etc. I think though, that there is an inherent racial discrimination that leads to segregation by socio-economic factors, based on my experience of that last 40 years. The segregation by race, ethnic group or socio-economic status transcends generations.

[Economist]

I think though, that there is an inherent racial discrimination that leads to segregation by socio-economic factors, based on my experience of that last 40 years. The segregation by race, ethnic group or socio-economic status transcends generations.

That could be true.

I guess I'm just not convinced. I think different races, differ for reasons outside of just racial discrimination. Many African Americans get very poor education, because African American's make up a disproportionate number of people in low income areas. The reasons for this are probably very complex, and some of the factors are probably related to racial discrimination while others aren't. For example, many children raised in these circumstances come from single parent households (usually a single mother), which is clearly a variable related to income and therefore where one lives (and it's also a variable that is probably not tied much to racial discrimination). Another example, is that Jews only make up 1 in 1000 (0.1%) of the population, yet they receive 29% of the Nobel Prizes in Science and Literature. These facts don't seem so clearly tied to racial discrimination, but maybe I'm just missing something.

Thomas Sowell is very interested in this topic, and in his view people should not expect things to be completely equal among different races, because of geography, culture, values, hobbies, history, and many other variables. He claims it's odd that people look to disparities in various things as "proof" of racial discrimination, because in his view it's an exception rather than the rule. If anyone is interested he's written many books, articles, and speeches on the topic.

Just for the record, I'm not saying Dr. Sowell is correct, but rather that it's complicated topic, and there might be many variables aside from just racial discrimination that play a key role.

[LydiaAC]

Hello:
That is exactly the reason by which so much people do not like capitalism. People differ in interests and this difference is translated into economic differences because the market value to write poetry or to stoke broking very different.
Races differ because they were selected in different environment. If sun is abundant, blacks are the superior race and if sun is scarce, whites are. I think that it is probable that African-Americans (not Africans in general) were selected to survive adversity. How do you think that a black person, proud and arrogant, sure of his own ability and with a predisposition to be his own boss, could manage to be subject of slavery? I think they could not: they died. However, black people, hard and strong, able to control their pain and with a more than extraordinary love for life, survived.
What of both sets of qualities is "superior"? I think none, but the first set is more valuable in a market economy. But, if an atomic bomb or an electromagnetic pulse destroyed the society in which we live, I am sure that blacks would be more able to cope with it.
This is somewhat an exaggeration, only intended to point out that I am open to accept some genetic component in differences between races, but I think that we must not hurry to attribute any difference to genes. I think that the most important component is a cultural disadvantage. It is different to be educated than to be children of educated people than to be grandchildren of educated people or descent of a long tradition of educated people.
I can see it in Mexico. I always say that I am "second-generation" because my parents had a college education, but not my grandparents. Most of my schoolmates are "first-generation". They must learn in school things that I learned in home. In a party, a Russian professor talk us about how she and her son interchanged e-mails in which they discuss about meaning of life and ask us if we talk with our parents about that. Most students were perplexed and one of them said her that "if I said my father something similar, he would slap my face and shout "Are you crazy? Think of something useful: food, home, not that crap!""
I think that in the case of Jews, a cultural advantage is the answer. From biblical times, they were used to read and discuss scriptures. There is a long tradition for study between Jews which make things easier for them. Could it be genetics? It could be if Jews were a race, but they are not! Askhenazi gene pool is more related to Germans than Sefaradi gen pool. And Sefaradi gen pool is more related to Spanish people than to Askhenazi gene pool.
I think that if I could live in a world with zero discrimination, it could be easier to see how much and which differences between races remain. Some people think we already live in that world because discrimination is not already in law, but that is not true.
Lydia

[Economist]

only intended to point out that I am open to accept some genetic component in differences between races, but I think that we must not hurry to attribute any difference to genes.

I was not implying that genetics had anything to do with it. In my own personal view, genetics has nothing to do with it. I was just pointing out that there are many socio-economic reasons that would lead to differences amoung race, gender, age, religion, etc, that have nothing to do with prejudice and discrimination.

[Ronnin]

Would it be considered racist if a man or woman chose a spouse based on say hair color, eye color, build, ect? Perhaps, for the sake of "shaping" the look of the children. I think people can have prejuduces without being a racist.

[Economist]

Would it be considered racist if a man or woman chose a spouse based on say hair color, eye color, build, ect? Perhaps, for the sake of "shaping" the look of the children. I think people can have prejuduces without being a racist.

Well, to be technical one needs to seperate prejudice, stereotypes, and discrimination. In my Social Psychology class we defined them this way. Stereotypes are broad over-generalizations people place on a group (such as, women are bad drivers, old people are cheap, athletes are dumb, asians are good at math, etc). Prejudice is an emotional dislike of someone for belonging to a group (such as, racism, sexism, etc). Discrimination is a behavior directed at someone for being part of a group (such as, not hiring someone because of race or gender, or not marrying someone because of race, etc). These three things can sometimes go hand-in-hand and sometimes one causes the other, but they're not neccessarily related (you can have elements of one without either of the other two).

I would say that your example is possibly discrimination (if for example you wouldn't date someone for a certain hair or eye color). Unless of course you just not attracted to those eye or hair colors, then I guess it'd be more prejudice.

I agree with you though that prejudice and racism are not the same thing, specifically racism is a type (or subset) of prejudice (but not the other way around).

[kdv]

Not neccessarily true. If there were no racist people and everyone was color blind, you still may find that different races tend to hand out with each other more often and marry within their race more often. Even without racism people may still be likely to live in areas and go to schools that tend to be racially disproportional for various socio-economic reasons that don't depend on racism, discrimination, etc. Therefore, you still may see people tending to marry within their race more often than not.

Aside from cultural/socio-economic factors, am I the only thinking that there is also a biological aspect that tends to make people of our race more attractive? I certainly feel more attracted physically to women of my race but I have absolutely no racist bias whatsoever. . Just in tersm of pure physical attraction, I don't find women of other races attractive. I can see women of other races and realize that they are beautiful in a purely abstract sense but I don't find myself attracted. I am surprised that nobody has mentioned that, maybe I am exceptional in that respect.

[binzing]

I'm not at all against these type of relationships, its just for me, black girls just aren't in the slightest bit, appealing.

[Economist]

Aside from cultural/socio-economic factors, am I the only thinking that there is also a biological aspect that tends to make people of our race more attractive?

It's possible.

On the other hand, I did hear about a study that found women have a preference to date within their race, although the same study found that men had no preference. The study basically said that men cared about physical attractiveness and didn't discriminate about who was attractive based on race.

[opus]

Well, to be technical one needs to seperate prejudice, stereotypes, and discrimination. In my Social Psychology class we defined them this way. Stereotypes are broad over-generalizations people place on a group (such as, women are bad drivers, old people are cheap, athletes are dumb, asians are good at math, etc). Prejudice is an emotional dislike of someone for belonging to a group (such as, racism, sexism, etc). Discrimination is a behavior directed at someone for being part of a group (such as, not hiring someone because of race or gender, or not marrying someone because of race, etc). These three things can sometimes go hand-in-hand and sometimes one causes the other, but they're not neccessarily related (you can have elements of one without either of the other two).

I would say that your example is possibly discrimination (if for example you wouldn't date someone for a certain hair or eye color). Unless of course you just not attracted to those eye or hair colors, then I guess it'd be more prejudice.

I agree with you though that prejudice and racism are not the same thing, specifically racism is a type (or subset) of prejudice (but not the other way around).
Racism is prejudice based on racial hierarchies. The problem is that racism is embedded into society. That is, an obvious racial structure is apparent when there is segregation or discrimination. In social psychology terms (since you're taking the class), this is socialization affecting the schemata -- a stereotype.

Not being attracted to a specific eye or hair colour, if conflated with race, denotes a racial hierarchy (say, not liking people with blonde hair). Being attracted to a specific eye or hair colour also denotes a racial hierarchy (liking people specifically with blue eyes). Race is fluid and by no means a "categorization" of simply Asians/Blacks/Whites/Natives/etc... it is full-blown from specific "features" that are correlated with populations to more latent things, such as how a black person "acts". Forming stereotypes means you are making prejudgments and discriminating (since they are value-judgements). You don't have to necessarily actively "discriminate" to be a discriminator -- by simply agreeing with stereotypes, are you discriminating whether explicit involved in "action" or not.

[Economist]

Racism is prejudice based on racial hierarchies.

I was saying that racism is a type of prejudice, but prejudice is much broader than just racism (at least the way social psychologists define it).

Not being attracted to a specific eye or hair colour, if conflated with race, denotes a racial hierarchy (say, not liking people with blonde hair). Being attracted to a specific eye or hair colour also denotes a racial hierarchy (liking people specifically with blue eyes).

I'm confused what you're saying? If someone doesn't like a specific physical characteristic that is correlated with race, are you stating that is racism? Also, your racial hierarchy example is confusing me. If an individual has preferences for certain features or even races for that matter, are you calling that a racial hierarchy? If so, then doesn't that just mean that they have preferences for certain features or races over another? I guess I am confused with what you mean by hierarchy, because we were talking about individuals, but I get the sense that you are referring to groups, society, etc, when you use a term like hierarchy.

[Astronuc]

Aside from cultural/socio-economic factors, am I the only thinking that there is also a biological aspect that tends to make people of our race more attractive? I certainly feel more attracted physically to women of my race but I have absolutely no racist bias whatsoever. Just in tersm of pure physical attraction, I don't find women of other races attractive. I can see women of other races and realize that they are beautiful in a purely abstract sense but I don't find myself attracted. I am surprised that nobody has mentioned that, maybe I am exceptional in that respect. That doesn't apply in my case. I've known some very attractive African-American, Hispanic and Asian women, but it were those particular women to whom I was attracted, and their race had nothing to do with it.

Besides physical attributes, I look for personality, intellectual curiosity and intelligence.

I married the first woman who would engage in long conversation with me - particularly on substantive matters.

[LydiaAC]

I was not implying that genetics had anything to do with it. In my own personal view, genetics has nothing to do with it. I was just pointing out that there are many socio-economic reasons that would lead to differences amoung race, gender, age, religion, etc, that have nothing to do with prejudice and discrimination.

But, if these differences are not genetically and are caused by socio-economic reasons: why is wrong in trying to eliminate them? What is wrong to look for an economic system in which these differences do not exist?
It is true that differences are spread in nature, but to say that "all what is natural is good" is a fallacy. If people do not like to see any difference, and this is a feasible situation, why not to work toward this goal?
African-American are statistically more prone to engage in criminal activities by a variety of reasons. Assume there could be a genetic component. But this does not mean that African-American are bad. Maybe the Justice system is bad. Discrimination? I think it is possible.
If drugs were legalized, as I think must be done, the proportion of blacks engaged in criminal activities, would reduce drastically. This would happen without blacks changing his behavior, be this social, economic or even genetically related. Drug dealing is a business with a high margin of profits that can be run by people without special training. Adult people can engage in selling and buying on a free market way. Drugs are bad for health, but why must government to babysit people, avoiding they buy drugs? Is it not discrimination against poorly educated people, black or white, to forbid this activity?
What I do not like about capitalists is that they summon genetic differences when they try to point that social programs (who are financed with taxes which they do not want to pay) are not useful to improve society. But, when genetic differences are summoned to point that social change must be necessary for fit needs of very genetically diverse people, they oppose to the idea, because they think that we must accept any social system that results from free market and any non-free-market intervention is bad per se.
By the way, I was strongly opposed to genetic differences but my experience in teaching, in dating, and in trying to make a friend of any people I met, made me doubt. When I read the case of David Reimer, I was finally convinced that natural skills are unevenly distributed among people. It would be nice if these differences were still evenly distributed among races but, if it happened that this is not true (it must be demonstrated, anyway), we would have to manage this situation in a way in which people of any race, and any set of skills, could be happy. If this require to break the law of market, I am in.
Lydia

[trainer5]

I am a black woman, and I think it's stupid to assume that black women are open to dating outside of their race just, because black men aren't up to par. I have been dating outside my race since, I first started dating. I never focused on color and it has never been an issue for me. I have met some great white men and black men alike. People keep making these comments about how black men are struggling. I have dated educated black men with their own homes, decent jobs, and open minds. The problem with most black women are that they are willing to settle for the "black guy" off the block just because, he's black. Some women aren't open to dating outside of their race that's their personal preference just like some white men aren't interested in dating outside of their race. However, I can see the beauty in a variety of personalities, skin colors of men. I love educated, hard working, intelligent men regardless of their color. White men approach me much more often than black men therefore, I have dated more white men than black. But, that doesn't mean that it is, because their is some shortage of black men out there. Please bloggers have a more open mind.

[Ivan Seeking]

I can appreciate your position but wonder about the numbers. From the OP:

The disproportionate representation of black Americans in the U.S. criminal justice system is well documented.(17) Blacks comprise 13 percent of the national population, but 30 percent of people arrested, 41 percent of people in jail,(18) and 49 percent of those in prison.(19) Nine percent of all black adults are under some form of correctional supervision (in jail or prison, on probation or parole), compared to two percent of white adults. (20) One in three black men between the ages of 20 and 29 was either in jail or prison, or on parole or probation in 1995.(21) One in ten black men in their twenties and early thirties is in prison or jail. (22) Thirteen percent of the black adult male population has lost the right to vote because of felony disenfranchisement laws.(23)

[GCT]

Here are some of my observations ... not quite certain if this is going to fit in with the thread. FYI I place quotes around the terms " black " and " white " since I believe that they are trashy concepts equivalent to concepts such as good and bad that are introduced to us at a young age ; by the way , both concepts are introduced to children around the same time. I wonder which one is good or bad - " black " or " white " .... anyways ....

There are more " black " men in a relationship with " white " women than " white " men with " black " women

explanation : " black " men seek " white " women more than " black " women seek " white " men. " black " men value " white " women highly and seek them just as frequently as " white men ". " White " men rarely seek " black " women and the same for " black " women with " white " men.

" White " women who are sought by " black " men usually have secondary sexual traits that are relatively more prounounced than their counterparts. These women usually seek the athletic type and black men represent a good deal of athletic talent and thus these " white " women are usually taken in equal proportions by both " black " and " white " men.

The other " white " women are usually not taken as much by " black " men.

[Monique]

I can appreciate your position but wonder about the numbers. From the OP:

The disproportionate representation of black Americans in the U.S. criminal justice system is well documented.(17) Blacks comprise 13 percent of the national population, but 30 percent of people arrested, 41 percent of people in jail,(18) and 49 percent of those in prison.(19) Nine percent of all black adults are under some form of correctional supervision (in jail or prison, on probation or parole), compared to two percent of white adults. (20) One in three black men between the ages of 20 and 29 was either in jail or prison, or on parole or probation in 1995.(21) One in ten black men in their twenties and early thirties is in prison or jail. (22) Thirteen percent of the black adult male population has lost the right to vote because of felony disenfranchisement laws.(23)

What are you trying to say with those numbers? There are also many white men in jail, does that make every single white male responsible for that group of people? There are disproportionally more male than females in prison, does that mean females should go and seek homosexual relationships with other females?

[Oberst Villa]

What are you trying to say with those numbers? There are also many white men in jail, does that make every single white male responsible for that group of people? There are disproportionally more male than females in prison, does that mean females should go and seek homosexual relationships with other females?

Well, why not ? Personally I definitely consider it a big turn on if a woman is a little bi ! :biggrin:

OK, trying to contribute seriously to the thread, I have to confess that I too am a bit puzzled trying to figure out what Ivan Seeking wants to say. I'd just like to draw you attention to the fact that he has a qoute from Colin Powell in his sig. So it is probably save to say that bashing black people is not his intention...

[Astronuc]

Umm - one's partner is a simply matter of personal preference and opportunity. Race, ethnicity, national origin are incidental, but perhaps some individuals develop a preference for one or more of those characteristics.

[marcus]

Well, why not ? Personally I definitely consider it a big turn on if a woman is a little bi ! :biggrin:

OK, trying to contribute seriously to the thread, I have to confess that I too am a bit puzzled trying to figure out what Ivan Seeking wants to say. I'd just like to draw you attention to the fact that he has a qoute from Colin Powell in his sig. So it is probably save to say that bashing black people is not his intention...

Great sig quote, Ivan!
"What is the greatest threat facing us now? People will say it's terrorism. But are there any terrorists in the world who can change the American way of life or our political system? No.... Only we can change ourselves. So what is the great threat we are facing?" - Colin Powell

The threat is American Facism, baby. The sheepification of the electorate. The erosion of democracy and the growth of big media mind control. You said it Colin! Beautiful! That's my kind of miliary hero, I'll tell you.

I want that Colin quote. But I have to keep links to super-useful QG and cosmo text in my sig as a resource.
======================

so what does Ivan mean by his Opener Post? Colonel Pancho you confess that you too are a bit puzzled.
Come on. He is mixing in some sex interest in order to rivet our attention on some serious social headaches: crime demographics, arrest and conviction demographics, prison demographics.
Those issues are so unwelcome and so difficult to think about constructively that the only way he can get an active thread going is by wafting the perfumed hanky of a little vicarious excitement in with the seriousness. Black women-White men is a non-issue. The issue is why so many black guys in jail. Is it genetic? Is it the System? How do you identify the factors. Where do you place the blame. What's the remedy? and so forth. Ivan drops a bomb with some irrelevant sexy tattoos on it.

[vociferous]

There are some interesting studies that I have seen about interracial relationships.

Firstly, it seems that men of all races are pretty colorblind, but certainly not blind, as physical attractiveness is their primary motivation, regardless of race or ethnicity (this is based on a study conducted in Manhattan, so it could be slightly different in Alabama).

Women, on the other hand, all prefer to date within their race, except for Asian women. Black women have a strong preference for black men. Hispanic and non Hispanic white women have a moderate preference for dating within their own race/ethnicity.

Asian men and black women are the most rare interracial pairing. I forget what the most common was, but I believe it was Asian women and white men.

[GCT]

Asian men and black women are the most rare interracial pairing. I forget what the most common was, but I believe it was Asian women and white men.

I wonder how the latter fares with the pairing between " black " men and " white " women considering the fact that pure " black " men are rare - pure African genes - their first names may be Teyshawn however their last names are always Smith and the like.

[marcus]

Who the hoot cares who dates whom?
or who has sex with whom?
Ivan started this thread about prison demographics.
It represents a problem.
What can be done? Try being creative. Get your head out of the box.

EDIT: not directed at you GCT, didn't see your post. No one in particular, self included.

[LydiaAC]

I am a black woman, and I think it's stupid to assume that black women are open to dating outside of their race just, because black men aren't up to par. I have been dating outside my race since, I first started dating. I never focused on color and it has never been an issue for me. I have met some great white men and black men alike. People keep making these comments about how black men are struggling. I have dated educated black men with their own homes, decent jobs, and open minds. The problem with most black women are that they are willing to settle for the "black guy" off the block just because, he's black. Some women aren't open to dating outside of their race that's their personal preference just like some white men aren't interested in dating outside of their race. However, I can see the beauty in a variety of personalities, skin colors of men. I love educated, hard working, intelligent men regardless of their color. White men approach me much more often than black men therefore, I have dated more white men than black. But, that doesn't mean that it is, because their is some shortage of black men out there. Please bloggers have a more open mind.

Hello Trainer5:
What it is happening in this thread is that we are trying to treat a social situation as a scientific problem. When doing so, it is very easy to offend people.
The argued reason for black women dating white men could be right or wrong. If you see the case for this explanation excessively weak, it is natural that you want to call it absurd or even stupid, but this is only a very emotional way to say "wrong".
You talk us about your personal experience and that is very interesting because experience is the base of knowledge. However, social trends cannot be evaluated only in the basis of one personal experience.
That is the nerd's dilemma. Must I use the scientific method only to understand the physical world but not the social world? I do not think so. Social problems are so great that they deserve to be treated with the best method, the scientific method.
The problem is that the scientific method requires to set hypothesis, which not all of them would be good ones. We must try and fail. We could say a lot of stupidities in our search for an answer. Nevertheless, to be creative and give a chance to a lot of different possibilities is what makes an "open mind", not the opposite.
LydiaAC

[Monique]

The argued reason for black women dating white men could be right or wrong. If you see the case for this explanation excessively weak, it is natural that you want to call it absurd or even stupid, but this is only a very emotional way to say "wrong".

I think it is wrong to relate 'interracial' dating with criminal statistics, it would be the same as relating homosexuality with criminal statistics. If you want to find out why people are dating outside their 'race', which I already find stupid and narrow minded, then you need to find out more about those couples and not throw some random statistic at it.

[Ivan Seeking]

What are you trying to say with those numbers? There are also many white men in jail, does that make every single white male responsible for that group of people? There are disproportionally more male than females in prison, does that mean females should go and seek homosexual relationships with other females?

If you look, you will see that we are talking about numbers like one out of three young black men [with criminal histories]. For professional and upwardly mobile black women who don't want to date a person with criminal history, this certainly does narrow the field. And the OP began with testimony supporting the claim.

[Ivan Seeking]

I think it is wrong to relate 'interracial' dating with criminal statistics, it would be the same as relating homosexuality with criminal statistics. If you want to find out why people are dating outside their 'race', which I already find stupid and narrow minded, then you need to find out more about those couples and not throw some random statistic at it.

You may find it stupid and narrow minded, but it may be a fact nonetheless. There is no group in the US that compares to young black men in regards to legal problems. It is a huge problem here.

[marcus]

If you look, you will see that we are talking about numbers like one out of three young black men [with criminal histories]. For professional and upwardly mobile black women who don't want to date a person with criminal history, this certainly does narrow the field.

Ivan this is an absolutely great thread!
A wizard thread with sizzle. good for the SocialSci forum.
But frankly what are you driving at?
professional upward mobile black women will date whoever including non-blacks and more power to them. it is their business.

so what is the problem? Aren't you really pointing at the system of criminal justice and the correctional institutions in our country? Maybe I misunderstood the real thrust of your opening post.

[Ivan Seeking]

Who the hoot cares who dates whom?
or who has sex with whom?
Ivan started this thread about prison demographics.
It represents a problem.
What can be done? Try being creative. Get your head out of the box.

EDIT: not directed at you GCT, didn't see your post. No one in particular, self included.

Actually, it began with a CNN report about black women who are dating white men because of a lack of eligible black men. But it does ultimately speak to the problems of young black men and what can be done.

For those who sense a racist bias, it is anything but that. I grew up with gang-bangers. I understand and am highly sensitive to the problems of poor black families. But pretending its not a problem is simply wishful thinking. The article cited helps to accentuate this fact.

[marcus]

Ivan, in honor of the fact that this is a cool thread, I will confer on it some utterly outrageous out-of-box thinking. Let's look at the situation from the point of view of an hypothetical RELIGIOUS FUNDAMENTALIST who believes the current situation (with its several facets both dating and incarceration) is part of the Divine Plan.

God clearly must want the races in America to intermingle because he has seen to it that we raise lots of black and latino kids in situations conducive to bad education high drugs and high crime and getting put away---leading lots of upward mobile black and latino women to date white guys! The Divine Plan is for them to date and get married and have lots of interracial interethnic babies. So let us offer...

A MODEST PROPOSAL

Let's carry out the Divine Plan even quicker and speed things up by arranging even more drug, gang, criminal behavior and putting EVEN MORE black and latino guys in jail, so even more of the women will date white guys and there will be even more mixed-race babies, which is God's obvious Will. :biggrin:

[Ivan Seeking]

Many people probably won't like my solution: Legalize drugs.

Why would a 16 year old boy in Watts take a minimum wage job when he can make up to $1000 a day selling drugs? This has always been the problem. And they already do it under threat of death from other gangs, not to mention the threat from the police, so its not like laws make any difference.

An interesting observation from a recent documentary: Blacks were making great strides, and life for blacks had, on the average, continually improved since the civil war, until the late sixties/ early seventies when drugs became popular. At that point, in many respects, the progress was halted.

late edits:

[Ivan Seeking]

There is also a culture of hopelessness to be overcome. And I must say, I think Obama has changed everything! Did anyone else follow the comments of black civil rights leaders at the Democratic National Convention [and elsewhere]. I doubt that there was one dry eye among them. And many blacks, young and old alike, have admitted that they simply can't believe what is happening. I have literally been reduced to tears a number of times just by listening to them talk.

In spite of my personal exposure to the problems discussed, it was a political science professor who really set me straight on all of this: A young person must believe that they can have a future before they will be willing to work for it.

[Astronuc]

A young person must believe that they can have a future before they will be willing to work for it. That's it right there. Too many folks are shut out.

[russ_watters]

There is also a culture of hopelessness to be overcome.

In spite of my personal exposure to the problems discussed, it was a political science professor who really set me straight on all of this: A young person must believe that they can have a future before they will be willing to work for it. Who'se responsibility is it to generate that belief?

[russ_watters]

Many people probably won't like my solution: Legalize drugs.

Why would a 16 year old boy in Watts take a minimum wage job when he can make up to $1000 a day selling drugs? This has always been the problem. And they already do it under threat of death from other gangs, not to mention the threat from the police, so its not like laws make any difference.
While that is a very common belief, it just plain isn't true. I don't have the book here (I read my dad's copy), but Freakonomics has a chapter on the operation of drug dealing gangs in Chicago (based on a grad student who essentially joined one). People see the handful of rich drug dealers and see that there is money to be made, but the fact of the matter is that the the "foot soldiers" make very little. The researcher found that both the structure and the economics were very similar to how a fast-food restaurant works. He got himself hooked-up with a small branch (like a McD franchise) with a handful of foot soldiers (the burger flippers) and a leader (the store manager). The leader of the group was a college grad in his mid 20's and he made something like $40-$60k. The foot soldiers made roughly half of minimum wage. Here's some excerpts from the chapter: http://freakonomicsbook.com/thebook/ch3.html

Regardless, that's evidence of the problem you mention in your next post (the belief problem).

[lonton]

A young person must believe that they can have a future before they will be willing to work for it.
Yes, implication may be more meaningful than a traditional advice.

[Ivan Seeking]

While that is a very common belief, it just plain isn't true. I don't have the book here (I read my dad's copy), but Freakonomics has a chapter on the operation of drug dealing gangs in Chicago (based on a grad student who essentially joined one). People see the handful of rich drug dealers and see that there is money to be made, but the fact of the matter is that the the "foot soldiers" make very little. The researcher found that both the structure and the economics were very similar to how a fast-food restaurant works. He got himself hooked-up with a small branch (like a McD franchise) with a handful of foot soldiers (the burger flippers) and a leader (the store manager). The leader of the group was a college grad in his mid 20's and he made something like $40-$60k. The foot soldiers made roughly half of minimum wage. Here's some excerpts from the chapter: http://freakonomicsbook.com/thebook/ch3.html

Regardless, that's evidence of the problem you mention in your next post (the belief problem).

I agree completely in that the reality of the drug world doesn't meet expectations, but it is the promise of money based on a few big scores that gets kids involved. And they are often drawn into this with malicious intent. But it is also about the culture that it creates, just as we saw with the prohibition on alcohol. Gangs literally run the neighborhoods because they make a fortune selling illegal drugs. MS13 has been so successful that they are now operating in a good number of countries.

The drug laws don't work and they make the problem worse.

But that isn't the point of this thread. That is just my perspective on one aspect of the problem. And my Conservative hero William F Buckley happened to agree, so I must be right. :biggrin:

[Ivan Seeking]

Who'se responsibility is it to generate that belief?

Are you asking where to point or how to help?

[russ_watters]

Are you asking where to point or how to help? Huh? I asked exactly what I asked. But I'll rephrase: Who is responsible for fixing the "culture of hopelessness"?

[marcus]

Huh? I asked exactly what I asked. But I'll rephrase: Who is responsible for fixing the "culture of hopelessness"?

I think it is a reasonable question, and provocative. Responsibility is an interesting ethical concept---the root meaning is probably something like "who must answer?"
"whose job is on the line if it doesn't get fixed?"
"who has some explaining to do?"
"who will be blamed by History if things screw up bigtime?"

Isn't that the etymological root idea? Who has to respond. Who will be held accountable.

We can list various possibilities. I'm not sure if the problem is adequately described by saying culture of hopelessness, but for discussion sake let's say hopelessness is the problem and consider who might be held responsible:

the hopeless individual is responsible for generating hope within himself (he should be smart enough to realize that if he works and obeys the law he can get a better life)

his parents are responsible----his mother should have practiced abstinence, or taught him good work habits. Or else his grandmother, if she raised him, is the one responsible.

the minister of the church his grandmother goes to is responsible. It is a minister's job to teach people hope, and instill in them a desire to live orderly productive lives.

black women are responsible---they should only smile at boys who get good grades in school and stay out of trouble----they should only date young fellows who attend junior college and study business accounting. this would reform the neighborhood overnight*.

the politicians are responsible---they should make speeches to encourage hard work and set up various incentive programs. They shouldn't coddle people. If society collapses, they will be blamed by History. If problems get even worse they might lose their jobs.

there really isn't a problem, so no one is responsible. It is just Darwinian evolution and the Free Market taking their natural course---we can isolate the patches of vice and squalor by building various sorts of walls, and let natural processes deal with whatever is inside the walls. Perhaps there will be a plague.

Does anyone have other notions of how responsibility might be shared in this matter?

*See the post #25 by Trainer
http://physicsforums.com/showthread.php?p=1871682#post1871682
She says "I love educated, hard working, intelligent men regardless of their color." This should be an inspiration to us all. (seriously)

[Ivan Seeking]

Huh? I asked exactly what I asked. But I'll rephrase: Who is responsible for fixing the "culture of hopelessness"?

For those who feel a sense of social responsiblity for everyone, it the responsibility of every American to address problems that damage the country and reduce the value of human life. For those who don't care, it is someone elses problem.

That's the great thing about freedom: If one wants to bury their head in the sand and ask who else should do something, they can do so.

[LydiaAC]

I think it is wrong to relate 'interracial' dating with criminal statistics, it would be the same as relating homosexuality with criminal statistics. If you want to find out why people are dating outside their 'race', which I already find stupid and narrow minded, then you need to find out more about those couples and not throw some random statistic at it.

Hello Monique:
Actually, I always had had the opposite question "Why people marry inside their own race?"
Nevertheless, I love to read what people is writing in this thread. I do not agree with everything, but It does not seem stupid nor narrow minded to me. It does not even seems malicious. If any, I would like to read more replies from black people.
By the way, I am Mexican and we share most of the problems of blacks (hopelessness and so), but maybe this is a topic for other thread.
Lydia

[baywax]

After seeing what white folks are capable of, I don't trust any of the so and sos.

Let's see. Let's say your great great great great grandfather was abducted from San Diego and taken to Tanzania to be sold at auction into slavery. Then generations of your family developed there under great oppression, continually lambasted with insults and distrust for 200 years. How would your self esteem and your self confidence level look at this end of the ordeal? You would probably, for the most part, believe what anyone thought about you, and act accordingly, unless you were taught by a strong person to rise above all of that hype.

[Monique]

Hello Monique:
Actually, I always had had the opposite question "Why people marry inside their own race?"
Nevertheless, I love to read what people is writing in this thread. I do not agree with everything, but It does not seem stupid nor narrow minded to me. It does not even seems malicious. If any, I would like to read more replies from black people.
By the way, I am Mexican and we share most of the problems of blacks (hopelessness and so), but maybe this is a topic for other thread.
Lydia That must be a cultural difference, because for me it is a non-issue what the color of someone's skin is. I do see communities where people only associate with their own ethnical class and yes I think that is being narrow-minded, not too long ago I went to a festive occasion where 99% were of the same ethnic class, with me being the exception. As for the thread: apparently there still is a taboo for women of African descend to associate with men of European descend and they are starting to break through it, good for them.

[vociferous]

After seeing what white folks are capable of, I don't trust any of the so and sos.

Let's see. Let's say your great great great great grandfather was abducted from San Diego and taken to Tanzania to be sold at auction into slavery. Then generations of your family developed there under great oppression, continually lambasted with insults and distrust for 200 years. How would your self esteem and your self confidence level look at this end of the ordeal? You would probably, for the most part, believe what anyone thought about you, and act accordingly, unless you were taught by a strong person to rise above all of that hype.

Jews were treated even worse for two thousand years by European Caucasians, culminating in an attempt to exterminate every European Jew, yet somehow most people of Jewish ancestry have managed to find peace with their former tormentors and become, as a group, productive members of the societies that they live in.

Even when racism against blacks was widespread, they managed to have children which went on to greater economic prosperity and educational achievement than their parents. I think you have to look long and hard at the values of the black community which has gone from emphasizing education (like during the Reconstruction period) and banding together as a community for positive change (like during the civil rights movement) to something where values such as avarice and criminality are celebrated.

I think this change of black culture explains why African American men are the only group that is declining in terms of education and economic prosperity while every other group, even groups that face significantly greater barriers to success (like poor, non-English speaking, uneducated, and often illegal immigrants) have continued to improve generationally like most any other immigrant groups. Black immigrants to the United States, many of whom are coming from states in which their ancestors were held in slavery are also able to improve generationally like any other group in the United States.

So, in conclusion, I have to believe that if black women want to date black men of their own social standing, it is going to become increasingly more difficult given the socio-economic trends, and only a dramatic change of values within the black community in the US are going to change that.

[baywax]

Jews were treated even worse for two thousand years by European Caucasians, culminating in an attempt to exterminate every European Jew, yet somehow most people of Jewish ancestry have managed to find peace with their former tormentors and become, as a group, productive members of the societies that they live in.

How productive is building a wall between you and your neighbour? I think the tensions between neighbours down there could have been avoided with some real sharing and some total disclosure of all intentions. I don't blame anyone that's put themselves in situations where they are made to be slaves (Egypt) or unwanted (throughout Europe) or subjected to genocidal maniacs (Nazis). But, the Hebrew intelligence is such that it has risen above retribution and revenge toward prosperity and goodwill (ignoring the back and forth warring with neighbours). Thanks for that.

Even when racism against blacks was widespread, they managed to have children which went on to greater economic prosperity and educational achievement than their parents. I think you have to look long and hard at the values of the black community which has gone from emphasizing education (like during the Reconstruction period) and banding together as a community for positive change (like during the civil rights movement) to something where values such as avarice and criminality are celebrated.

"The values of the black community"... you mean the African American community? I would imagine their values are not far from your own. They need food, shelter and mobility to get to a good job that can pay for the former. Beyond that, they need the safety of the street and the park for their children to run around and have fun.

What seems to be happening is that an extremely small portion of the African American culture is jumping on the 'gangsta" wagon and pumping out dubious noises that are accepted by an entire generation of youth who need to annoy their parents with something that doesn't sound like "Classic Rock". This has facilitated and represented a sub-culture of "gangstas" which has become a kind of icon of the youth (Caucasian and African and Indian and so on). This turn of events has led to more kids, from every sub-species of humans, trying on the "bling" of "gangstahood". Its certainly not confined to the African American community.

I think this change of black culture explains why African American men are the only group that is declining in terms of education and economic prosperity while every other group, even groups that face significantly greater barriers to success (like poor, non-English speaking, uneducated, and often illegal immigrants) have continued to improve generationally like most any other immigrant groups. Black immigrants to the United States, many of whom are coming from states in which their ancestors were held in slavery are also able to improve generationally like any other group in the United States.

So, in conclusion, I have to believe that if black women want to date black men of their own social standing, it is going to become increasingly more difficult given the socio-economic trends, and only a dramatic change of values within the black community in the US are going to change that.

And that change will come with positive reinforcement, not a drug war. Leading by example, not brow beating and brutality. Thanks for this insight.

[baywax]

Not that I know a thing about it. And please forgive me for any faux pas or offences. I've been trying to "liberate" the First Nations of Canada for as long as I've been alive. The only thing that's worked is to show them their long, distinguished past and give it back to them.

People who have been repressed by guns, booze and poor treatment and even slavery only look like they're doing well now because they are finally getting back what they had all along, before it was taken away by a few porky sloths in waistcoats.

[TheStatutoryApe]

It seems consistent with what I have seen that women tend to date with in their own 'race/culture' more often than not. It also seems consistent with a theory I have that women tend to create a model in their mind of what they think their perfect mate would be like at a young age. Since most people think more visually and tend to judge people and prospective mates most heavily on looks I can easily see where women would tend to create these models with the 'appropriate' skin colour.

In the case of black women I am not sure I can agree with you Ivan, or the article, that these prison statistics play that large a role in this apparent phenomenon of black women choosing mates outside of their own 'race'. Certainly they do to some degree. A person who goes to jail is that much less likely to go to college or be capable of finding a decent job. They are also that much more likely to wind up back in prison, doing drugs, becoming alcoholics, ect. These are all significant factors in choosing a potential mate and would seem to narrow the choices greatly.

We're talking more about 'successful' black women though. More specificly women who have gone to college and/or found employment in the white collar world. Even if we were to assume that the black men in college and the white collar work place were proportionally represented (which they are not, I know) that would still mean there are more men of other 'races/cultures' than there are black men. And if men are far less likely to have a racial preference for their mates then that narrows the pool of prospective mates even further for a black woman who wants a black man. So it just stands to reason that as more black women become more academicly successful and find better jobs we will see more of them choosing mates outside of their race. Women who are educated, financially successful, and older (if they have waited until this point to look for a serious relationship) are likely to care less about their mates physical appearance aswell.

Another phenomena mentioned in the article is thenumber of black men who seem to prefer to date outside of their race. I have heard about this alot and even met black men who do not like to date black women. They even warn white men away from black women because apparently black women have a tendancy to be much more domineering than white women. Whether or not this is true or can even be statisticly quantified I have no idea but it seems to be the perception from my experience. Its not hard to see the possibility of this. Single black mothers are fairly common and while they may often wind up with rebellious and troubled sons, for lack of a father figure, they will be more likely to produce strong independent daughters. Since the average man seems to have difficulty dealing with strong independent women this could be a big reason why many black men choose specificly to date outside of their race.

This last bit is probably not very significant in the over all picture but I am just trying to illustrate the many variables there seem to be in this issue. I don't think that black men are hurting for mates any more than black women, and apparently less so.

[vociferous]

Another phenomena mentioned in the article is thenumber of black men who seem to prefer to date outside of their race. I have heard about this alot and even met black men who do not like to date black women.

I made reference to I study I read about earlier which showed that while black women were, by far, the group most strongly preferential of dating within their own race, black men had no racial/ethnic preference and tended to judge based on looks as the strongest factor (which was also true in the study of men of all races/ethnicities).

So, if you are an educated black woman, and you are trying to find a black man of similar socio-economic achievement as yourself, it will be difficult because.

1) The ratio of black women to black men who are well-educated or have high earning power is very heavily disproportionate.

2) Black men are as likely to choose someone of another race as they are to choose a black woman.

[gmax137]

Sorry to interrupt, but I can't help going off-topic (from Post #35)
That is the nerd's dilemma.

I just love that, "the nerd's dilemma..."

Thanks for that one, Lydia

[baywax]

Actually I did want to say, who's business is it whether an African American women dates the blue man group or otherwise? And to what end will any of this information help anyone other than the marketing tycoons on Madison Avenue?

[vociferous]

Actually I did want to say, who's business is it whether an African American women dates the blue man group or otherwise? And to what end will any of this information help anyone other than the marketing tycoons on Madison Avenue?

I believe that knowledge, whether it is about the natural, artificial, or social world, is valuable in and unto itself. I find no reason why someone needs to justify the acquisition of knowledge or the discussion of knowledge.

[baywax]

I believe that knowledge, whether it is about the natural, artificial, or social world, is valuable in and unto itself. I find no reason why someone needs to justify the acquisition of knowledge or the discussion of knowledge.

Well when it comes to eavesdropping and meddling in other people's affairs as it appears that this sort of study encourages, I'd say you have, or used to have, some sort of law against it.

[vociferous]

Are you seriously suggesting that it is, or should be illegal to conduct social science research?

[baywax]

Are you seriously suggesting that it is, or should be illegal to conduct social science research?

I'm suggesting that there needs to be consent forms signed before any research is conducted. If there are none signed, then the action would be illegal and unethical. This would ensure no invasion of privacy was committed. Even the tax dept. makes sure you understand what you're committing to when you fill out a form. Why should the social sciences have any more access to or liberty with people's private information? There might also be a clause that ensures the mental and physical health of the interviewee is such that they understand what they are signing etc...

In the long run, if this study is about the health (mental/physical/economic/societal) of the African American male, why not measure it directly instead of involving their counterparts, the women? Why introduce so many variables to this measurement of the health of the average African American male?

[vociferous]

I'm suggesting that there needs to be consent forms signed before any research is conducted. If there are none signed, then the action would be illegal and unethical. This would ensure no invasion of privacy was committed. Even the tax dept. makes sure you understand what you're committing to when you fill out a form. Why should the social sciences have any more access to or liberty with people's private information? There might also be a clause that ensures the mental and physical health of the interviewee is such that they understand what they are signing etc...

In the long run, if this study is about the health (mental/physical/economic/societal) of the African American male, why not measure it directly instead of involving their counterparts, the women? Why introduce so many variables to this measurement of the health of the average African American male?

A lot of research is conducted using demographic data, so no consent form is needed. If there is a specific study conducted, as opposed to gathering already available statistical data, then the people who participate are usually given consent forms to sign. One of the advantages of research in the social sciences (as opposed to the natural sciences) is that you can gather a lot of your data just by acquiring it from public or private records, as opposed to having to actually spend the time and money gathering it yourself.

[baywax]

A lot of research is conducted using demographic data, so no consent form is needed. If there is a specific study conducted, as opposed to gathering already available statistical data, then the people who participate are usually given consent forms to sign. One of the advantages of research in the social sciences (as opposed to the natural sciences) is that you can gather a lot of your data just by acquiring it from public or private records, as opposed to having to actually spend the time and money gathering it yourself.

As an archaeologist working with anthropologists I found (in the past) that we used highly intrusive behaviour in order to collect data for the "public record". Graves were plundered and incredible sacred and ancestral sites were annexed for and by the government. The people to whom these sites belonged were briefed, (in the sense of the word) "briefly", but never asked permission in many cases. How the public record is compiled with regard to "whom marries whom and why" is another can of worms. I'm glad to hear that consent is or is thought to be a central issue to the collection of any personal data in your country.

I am still puzzled by the need to gauge the health of African American males by who they marry. As it has been pointed out, these guys really go for pretty much any woman, like most males (with exceptions). I suppose that, ideally, marrying into your own sub-species is a gesture and ritual of loyalty and acknowledgment to your ancestors. For myself, I live in an extremely multi-cultural society, there's a city 40 minutes from here that is 80 percent inhabited by Canadian Chinese from Hong Kong and Mainland China. On the way there you go through India town where there are 100s of thousands of people who have immigrated from India. Little Italy is on route to all of this and there are Polish, Ukrainian and Croation community centres all along the way. One area is Israeli to the max. There is also a huge contingent of Iranian immigrants in many portions of the city proper.

And at the same time, you see these people mingling like they're all the same species... human. And some venture to marry one another. Somehow, though, our social sciences division has neglected to use the marriage stats to gauge the health of any one sub-species.

[TheStatutoryApe]

I am still puzzled by the need to gauge the health of African American males by who they marry. As it has been pointed out, these guys really go for pretty much any woman, like most males (with exceptions). I suppose that, ideally, marrying into your own sub-species is a gesture and ritual of loyalty and acknowledgment to your ancestors.
No one is talking about the health of any one as far as I know. Just their dating practices and more specifically those of black women. Some are wondering what effect that may have on the population of black males in regards to finding mates.
There are many people of different 'races' who feel that their cultures are dying out due to mixed marriage. Some see it as an erosion of their cultural community. And as pointed out in the article of the OP some even think that black males date white women as a symbol of status and that they are selling out their culture. So there may be a social/cultural significance in all of this regardless of whether or not its the sort of issue that effects you personally. Someone somewhere certainly cares about the cost of tea in china.

For myself, I live in an extremely multi-cultural society, there's a city 40 minutes from here that is 80 percent inhabited by Canadian Chinese from Hong Kong and Mainland China. On the way there you go through India town where there are 100s of thousands of people who have immigrated from India. Little Italy is on route to all of this and there are Polish, Ukrainian and Croation community centres all along the way. One area is Israeli to the max. There is also a huge contingent of Iranian immigrants in many portions of the city proper.
Its much like this where I live too. Driving home down the main street next to my neighbourhood I see signs in Arabic, Thai, Chinese, and Spanish. Maybe even others that look similar and I just can't distinguish.
So we can see by all of this that people tend to clump together in small (and sometimes large) cultural communities. I'd hazard a guess that the majority of people live in areas where there are several people of their same culture or 'race'. Obviously cultural cohesiveness is important to alot of people so doesn't it make sense for social scientists to study the phenomenon of, and trends in, intercultural dating and marriage?

[baywax]

No one is talking about the health of any one as far as I know. Just their dating practices and more specifically those of black women. Some are wondering what effect that may have on the population of black males in regards to finding mates.

There are many people of different 'races' who feel that their cultures are dying out due to mixed marriage. Some see it as an erosion of their cultural community. And as pointed out in the article of the OP some even think that black males date white women as a symbol of status and that they are selling out their culture. So there may be a social/cultural significance in all of this regardless of whether or not its the sort of issue that effects you personally. Someone somewhere certainly cares about the cost of tea in china.


Its much like this where I live too. Driving home down the main street next to my neighbourhood I see signs in Arabic, Thai, Chinese, and Spanish. Maybe even others that look similar and I just can't distinguish.
So we can see by all of this that people tend to clump together in small (and sometimes large) cultural communities. I'd hazard a guess that the majority of people live in areas where there are several people of their same culture or 'race'. Obviously cultural cohesiveness is important to alot of people so doesn't it make sense for social scientists to study the phenomenon of, and trends in, intercultural dating and marriage?

That's cool. I wonder, though, if it isn't my own xenophobia that flares up when I see the socio/economically well-to-do "race" of whites inspecting and documenting the sexual/cultural/marital preferences of "minority races" (which are only a minority in a relative sense). Wouldn't it be even more efficient to have the people of a "race" study themselves? This would produce data no one could ever have imagined existed.

Is it a distrust of the "other" people that disallows the acceptance of their own studies of their own cultures? Where is the enabling and support for this kind of initiative amongst the "minorities"? There are private social science initiatives in some groups. Marketing is, after all, a social science!

[TheStatutoryApe]

That's cool. I wonder, though, if it isn't my own xenophobia that flares up when I see the socio/economically well-to-do "race" of whites inspecting and documenting the sexual/cultural/marital preferences of "minority races" (which are only a minority in a relative sense). Wouldn't it be even more efficient to have the people of a "race" study themselves? This would produce data no one could ever have imagined existed.

Is it a distrust of the "other" people that disallows the acceptance of their own studies of their own cultures? Where is the enabling and support for this kind of initiative amongst the "minorities"? There are private social science initiatives in some groups. Marketing is, after all, a social science!

Lol... although some or even most of us discussing this are white what makes you think that the people studying this are white? Don't you think the people most interested, and most aware of there even being such a phenomenon in the first place, would be black?
Perhaps its this male dominated anglo society that has programmed you to not think there are possibly black female sociologists out there making such inquiries?

[baywax]

Lol... although some or even most of us discussing this are white what makes you think that the people studying this are white? Don't you think the people most interested, and most aware of there even being such a phenomenon in the first place, would be black?
Perhaps its this male dominated anglo society that has programmed you to not think there are possibly black female sociologists out there making such inquiries?

I will believe that Afro-Americans are accepted as equals when America has an African-American president. Oh, I guess that might happen! In Canada we tend to swing between French Canadian and Anglo Canadian Prime Ministers every 10 years or so. But we have yet to see an Indo-Canadian, Iranian-Canadian or First Nation Canadian take the reigns. We did have one woman as PM by the way, and although women make up half the population, they have struggled as much as a "minority" group to gain influence in law making etc.

I don't think hiring people because of their skin colour or ethnic background is actually ethical. Qualifications really need to be the benchmark. A realtor or a marketer will hire a person because they're Chinese and speak Mandrin. If their qualifications are nil, the marketer loses. So, as you have pointed out, the mix of multi-culturalism and the sheer numbers of people coming to live in North America has upped the chances of there being a qualified diversity of people available to study themselves... and even govern everyone.

[Ivan Seeking]

Interesting.

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