Arab countries Text - Physics Forums Library

nabki

Apr29-08, 12:18 PM

an Arabs point of view:
depending on the nation, you will find different levels of tolerance. in Saudi Arabia, for instance everyone (non Muslims and Muslims) are forced to live by Islamic law, which is actually not part of Islam since in sharia law religious minorities have the right to freely practice their religious beliefs and live according to their laws IF those laws do not harm society or are against other peoples rights.
racism is non-existent in most Arab countries such as jordan, Syria, most of Egypt, Lebanon, UAE, and Algeria. others like Lebanon, Saudi and Iraq have more tribal or ethnic divides.

Or the other way round - Egypt needs tourism and thats why it's tolerant.
The more oil-rich the other states, and the less they need visitors, the less tolerant they have to be.

to a certain point... since Saudi Arabia officially discriminates against non-Saudi nationals.
and tolerance is not tied to oil, it is tied to social sensibilities. Saudi Arabia has an ultra-conservative society. others such as Syria and the UAE are more liberal.

so to answer the main question:
If I go to some Arab country like Iran or Saudi Arab, will they put me in jail for doing anything that is not allowed in their religion (not necessarily against)?
in most Arab Muslim countries: no. you are not a Muslim so therefore you do not have to obey most Islamic laws, but for the sake of decency try and obey social ones.

mgb_phys

Apr29-08, 12:30 PM

Although you might want to avoid UAE http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7234786.stm

Moridin

Apr29-08, 01:35 PM

In Iran, it is against the law to be an agnostic or atheist.

AhmedEzz

Apr30-08, 05:31 PM

Although you might want to avoid UAE http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7234786.stm

This is sh*t publicity and so stupid, UAE is probably the best arab country to go to after Egypt.

jaap de vries

May1-08, 11:04 PM

Egypt and Egyptians has always been known for tolerance friendliness and hospitality...

I think your confused my friend I am from the Netherlands and I think we have a different understanding about tolerance.

First Egypt is NOT a democracy neither does it have free speech. Their main TV host just called for a boycott on Dutch products because one person in the Netherlands made a movie relating Islam with Terrorism. Also a Dutch children's movie was refused for showing at a festival held in Egypt. A not so smart move from a country that relies heavily on European Tourism. Or was this just a measure to please the Islamic radical for a short moment?

The NDP has governed since 1978, or do you believe that running four consecutive times for 6 year term UNOPPOSED is democracy.

Torturing of prisoners is also not uncommon practice by the SSIS [1-3], in fact Egypt is one of the most popular countries for US' special rendition program.

Sorry to come down on you a little hard but I have this discussion more often with people from Egypt and they seem to have a skew view on their "Great Nation" with its dictator Mubarak.

Since you are on a western site hear you might hear something else for a change.

[1] http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2003/27926.htm
[2] http://www.hrw.org/wr2k1/mideast/egypt.html
[3] http://terrorism.about.com/od/humanrights/a/EgyptTorture.htm

vanesch

May2-08, 02:10 AM

I think your confused my friend I am from the Netherlands and I think we have a different understanding about tolerance.
First Egypt is NOT a democracy neither does it have free speech.

I don't think one was talking here about the political system. I've been several times to Egypt and I have to agree with Ahmed that the people in the street are extremely friendly and helpful, in fact much more so than in many touristic places in Europe where you really have the feeling that you are just a money pump.

I have to say that I don't think I will go again to Egypt, but for a totally different reason: each time, I was one or two months sick with a serious GI-trackt deregulation when I got back. I thought it would improve upon repeated visits, but it didn't: each time I got ill. There must be some virusses or bacteria over there that my body doesn't handle...

jaap de vries

May2-08, 02:34 AM

I don't think one was talking here about the political system. I've been several times to Egypt and I have to agree with Ahmed that the people in the street are extremely friendly and helpful, in fact much more so than in many touristic places in Europe where you really have the feeling that you are just a money pump.

I have to say that I don't think I will go again to Egypt, but for a totally different reason: each time, I was one or two months sick with a serious GI-trackt deregulation when I got back. I thought it would improve upon repeated visits, but it didn't: each time I got ill. There must be some virusses or bacteria over there that my body doesn't handle...

Yes but the quote I countered was Egypt and Egyptians. Egypt as a country is not well known for its tolerance, even do Egyptians might be very friendly.

I agree about Europe's largest tourist traps are atrocious, try to find the hidden places you will like it better. I am the first to amid that after living in the US for a while, I find the people in Europe (read Netherlands) are not always that friendly.

nabki

May2-08, 03:57 AM

04.29.08 21:35
Moridin
In Iran, it is against the law to be an agnostic or atheist.

source

Originally Posted by mgb_phys
Although you might want to avoid UAE http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7234786.stm

This is sh*t publicity and so stupid, UAE is probably the best arab country to go to after Egypt.

please try and refrain from using swearwords. swearing in such discussions is not very friendly. and why would i want to go to Egypt and not go to the UAE?
i do think that the UAE is a pretty free and tolerant country, although some laws need to be revised.

I think your confused my friend I am from the Netherlands and I think we have a different understanding about tolerance.

yes, the Netherlands, notorious for lax drug laws. and a red light district that is envied by other nations. how tolerant.

First Egypt is NOT a democracy neither does it have free speech.

i agree.

Or was this just a measure to please the Islamic radical for a short moment?

First Egypt is NOT a democracy neither does it have free speech.

contradictory statements. mubaraks regime wants to please a popular movement? and the just started a deal with Israel to pump natural gas to Israel for 20 years?

vanesch

May2-08, 07:17 AM

I find the people in Europe (read Netherlands) are not always that friendly.

Being Belgian, I can't but agree with you :rofl: :rofl:

jaap de vries

May2-08, 10:09 AM

source

contradictory statements. mubaraks regime wants to please a popular movement? and the just started a deal with Israel to pump natural gas to Israel for 20 years?

Pleasing a popular movement if you want to call radical islamist that does not contradict my statement at all. You see this in most dictatorial regimes where protests against the government is illegal. Staged demonstrations and US/Dutch/Danish "flag burnings' is a nice way to distract a lot of people from the oppression by their own government.

There are still people in the West that think that these kind of protests are spontaneous.

Yes we have a tolerant (soft) drug policy in the Netherlands. But we use far less of it than for instance France. Also legalized prostitution allows for better protection for the women although it is a industry that needs to be controlled better I agree. It does however not compare to female mutilation and torture.

jaap de vries

May2-08, 10:13 AM

Being Belgian, I can't but agree with you :rofl: :rofl:

Your from Belgium? You must be from Walonie since many Flemish would not be against combining Holland and Flemingen(?).
It would sure do your economy a lot of good!
I do think most people from Belgium are friendlier than people in Holland because we have the tendency to take ourselves a little bit to serious.

mgb_phys

May2-08, 10:29 AM

Staged demonstrations and US/Dutch/Danish "flag burnings' is a nice way to distract a lot of people from the oppression by their own government.
I always wondered where they get the flags:
"Heh Fatima, I just saw on CNN that the Dutch have published a cartoon I disagree with - get the Dutch flag out of the cupboard and pass me the gas can"
"Is the Dutch one the one with vertical stripes? Just a minute while I look it up in my I-spy book of flags"

Or does the Saudi branch of Walmart do a lot of business selling inflammable US flags?
They would have to be good quality cotten flags to burn like that, nylon / polyester would just melt before the camera crews had got it in focus.

In a similair vein, it turns out the "free tibet" flags featuring in the Olympic torch protests are made in, you guessed it, china http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7370903.stm

vanesch

May2-08, 01:37 PM

Your from Belgium? You must be from Walonie since many Flemish would not be against combining Holland and Flemingen(?).

Awel, nee, zie, ik ben een Vlaming :tongue2:

I was just making an allusion of the rivalry that sometimes exists between Belgians and Dutch (not quite the same, but must be a little bit comparable to the attitude between French and English).

I do think most people from Belgium are friendlier than people in Holland because we have the tendency to take ourselves a little bit to serious.

Eh. Yes! :smile: The Dutch are more efficient (especially in business). But a bit too serious :wink:

mgb_phys

May2-08, 01:49 PM

I was just making an allusion of the rivalry that sometimes exists between Belgians and Dutch (not quite the same,
At least that would be a fairly laid-back civillised kind of holy war - settled over some beers, a joint and fries with mayonaise!

Gokul43201

May2-08, 02:00 PM

How can you be serious if the only thing you do besides drinking beer is brewing it? And we all know that this is all anyone ever does in Belgium (assuming it even exists in the first place (http://www.zapatopi.net/belgium/)).

On the other hand, the relative absence of beer in the ME is definitely what makes it such a serious place.

PS: :tongue2:

jaap de vries

May2-08, 06:32 PM

Don't forget the van Karman Institute (http://www.vki.ac.be/)

This place is actually pretty impressive given that I work in a turbo machinery lab myself

AhmedEzz

May3-08, 03:26 AM

jaap de vries, i never refered to Egypt's political system so i don't know where u got the idea from. Sadly, you have made some accusations that are not completely true or relevant. I will try to answer all of the things you claimed.

First Egypt is NOT a democracy neither does it have free speech

I know Egypt is not a complete democracy but i think this will change over the next decade or so. However, not being a democracy doesn't mean that we are less tolerant than any.

Their main TV host just called for a boycott on Dutch products because one person in the Netherlands made a movie relating Islam with Terrorism. Also a Dutch children's movie was refused for showing at a festival held in Egypt.

Try to be a little more considering in your speech. We are talking about masses of people who were seriously offended by that movie. I believe this is a very limited and minimal reaction to that movie. The West might not appreciate how Muslims feel and care for their religion.

A not so smart move from a country that relies heavily on European Tourism

You obviously don't know about Egyptians. If it was the last source of income we have, we would have still done it.

Or was this just a measure to please the Islamic radical for a short moment?

It was a measure that reveals a small part of the public refusal that this movie aroused.

Torturing of prisoners is also not uncommon practice by the SSIS [1-3], in fact Egypt is one of the most popular countries for US' special rendition program.

Please lets not go there because we both know the ugly truth in the world today. The US is probably the last country in the world to talk about human rights.

Sorry to come down on you a little hard but I have this discussion more often with people from Egypt and they seem to have a skew view on their "Great Nation" with its dictator Mubarak.

For a second their i thought that was sarcasm but since I don't want to go any deeper in this discussion, i will think of it differently. Mubarak has done alot to Egypt. We remained without war and fear for a long time. We regained all of our lands peacefully. And finally we are now trying to pull ourselves back together after long and nasty years of corruption and theft that stalled and held us back over the years. You see after so many years, the government is finally paying attention to research, science and technology. Moreover, the economy is recovering and so as health,education and culture.

I hope i wasn't too long for anyone to read but i had to answer carefully all that has been said. Last of all, I am not offended or anything so please feel free to ask me what you like but lets stick to the subject.

jaap de vries

May3-08, 04:29 PM

I know Egypt is not a complete democracy but i think this will change over the next decade or so. However, not being a democracy doesn't mean that we are less tolerant than any.

Actually that is exactly what a dictatorship means! You can NOT be a successful dictatorship without eliminating opposition (or not TOLERATE) opposition.

Try to be a little more considering in your speech. We are talking about masses of people who were seriously offended by that movie. I believe this is a very limited and minimal reaction to that movie. The West might not appreciate how Muslims feel and care for their religion.

The Idea that you boycott a Country because of the opinion of one person and you agree with this clearly means that you don't understand what freedom of speech means. We can't all boycott the US for what O'reilly says. I came to the sad understanding that even educated people in the middle east have a fundamental different opinion about freedom of speech/religion etc.

(the movie was just a compilation of terrorist acts....BY MOLIMS! So I don't see why the Islamic world is so offended by that.)

You obviously don't know about Egyptians. If it was the last source of income we have, we would have still done it.

Again it doesn't make sense since our prime minister clearly denounced the movie and the whole Dutch government distanced themselves from it. Clearly people in Egypt do not understand that we have freedom of speech. However no Dutch TV channel or internet site felt like showing this movie. (Details that never seem to be mentioned because they get in the way of organized flag burning sessions)

Please lets not go there because we both know the ugly truth in the world today. The US is probably the last country in the world to talk about human rights.

Maybe so but I am not from the US. and I hope you are not seriously comparing the human rights record of the Netherlands with that of Egypt, or any other ME dictatorship for that matter.

Mubarak has done a lot to Egypt. We remained without war and fear for a long time. We regained all of our lands peacefully. And finally we are now trying to pull ourselves back together after long and nasty years of corruption and theft that stalled and held us back over the years.

Any dictatorship has their supporters, I admit their is progress being made (slowly) but that does not create an image of Egypt being so overly tolerant.

Here is the most important part do.
and what I am about to say go's for any dictatorship.

Their is NO way for me to know that what you say is what you think or believe.

This is the fundamental difference between a dictatorship and a true free society. Their is no way to check for us, especially with respect to the ME what people feel, how many are radicalized etc. It is impossible to get unbiased media coverage from any source.

AhmedEzz

May3-08, 05:03 PM

flowerthrower

May3-08, 05:46 PM

I think your confused my friend I am from the Netherlands and I think we have a different understanding about tolerance.

First Egypt is NOT a democracy neither does it have free speech. Their main TV host just called for a boycott on Dutch products because one person in the Netherlands made a movie relating Islam with Terrorism. Also a Dutch children's movie was refused for showing at a festival held in Egypt. A not so smart move from a country that relies heavily on European Tourism. Or was this just a measure to please the Islamic radical for a short moment?

The NDP has governed since 1978, or do you believe that running four consecutive times for 6 year term UNOPPOSED is democracy.

Torturing of prisoners is also not uncommon practice by the SSIS [1-3], in fact Egypt is one of the most popular countries for US' special rendition program.

Sorry to come down on you a little hard but I have this discussion more often with people from Egypt and they seem to have a skew view on their "Great Nation" with its dictator Mubarak.

Since you are on a western site hear you might hear something else for a change.

it's important to rationally separate international Media and Government actions from the way that life is lived on the ground by people. when someone who actually lives in these countries answers questions about what it's like for a foreigner to travel there, we should ask more questions to get at the truth, if that's what is truly sought. if there are debates about it, there must be a misconception somewhere, as in the case of the answers to "If I go to some Arab country like Iran or Saudi Arab, will they put me in jail for doing anything that is not allowed in their religion (not necessarily against)?" can the question be answered objectively? yes. other extraneous details only reflect on other cultural anxieties.

for example: it's no more my fault that paris hilton made a sex tape 9 years ago than it is that george bush failed to send aid to hurricane victims in louisiana 3 years ago. nor is it untrue that in my neighborhood you might be treated like royalty because you're from denmark, but 300 miles south of here you'd probably have a hard time being treated with even a small amount of respect because a lot of those people don't like any foreigners whatsoever. countries are not composed of machines and pins stuck in a map. they are full of actual people and regional cultures based on universally understandable things like climate, cuisine, history, religion, and nature.

what my government, newscasters, talk show hosts, athletes, musicians, and movie makers do has nothing to do with me or almost anyone i've ever MET, let alone know. i could tell you that something were true in my country or region and it would be true, even if it sounded contrary to what you've learned through the world of publicized international incidents...aka government/media soap operas.

i just want to point that out. we sit around and talk about what a repressed people we have there in the middle east now that we've put the magnifying glass up to them because of a war. that's not really fair. no one there knew they were going to be required to instantly throw the status quo out and embrace something new and unknown. now here they are, with their different ways of life and education systems, religions, and governmental traditions.

it's ALL different and too many of us want it to be instantly the same and totally symbiotic with the bigger animal, the WEST. that's not going to happen overnight!

i would think that we shouldn't rush to throw our ways of life down upon them anyway...don't use the U.S. as the model, for example, as if the war gives us some noble "purpose" or "cultural validation". we have more people in prison than any other nation in the world. there are a lot of internal problems here and they're getting worse all the time, and they're the historically worst kind of problems for any nation that wants to stay intact and relatively free. classic problems like corruption and greed at the highest levels of government.

"the internal combustion engine is dead!"

Phrak

May3-08, 06:57 PM

"for example: it's no more my fault that paris hilton made a sex tape 9 years ago than it is that george bush failed to send aid to hurricane victims in louisiana 3 years ago."

argg. get your facts straight

jaap de vries

May3-08, 07:21 PM

"for example: it's no more my fault that paris hilton made a sex tape 9 years ago than it is that george bush failed to send aid to hurricane victims in louisiana 3 years ago."

Actually in a democracy you are responsible for your own government however collectively, so you only have a small amount of power.

jaap de vries

May3-08, 07:28 PM

my friend, let's imagine that the European union kicked the Netherlands out and no support is recieved from it. Then let's imagine that the English declared war on you and after a couple of decades of war with the Brits, the Netherlands finally made peace. However, its resources has been exhausted and it has no economy, no true army, the society is divided and broken and many many good people died or fled from the country. Can you imagine how long it would take to rebuild such country to the current Netherlands? That is probably why I can't compare Egypt's human rights record to the Netherlands'.

Just throw in the France, Germans, Spanish, Portuguese and you just described about 800 years of our history.

I am aware of the history and the unfair hands of cards that have been dealt throughout history. However, and I'll repeat it again. Egypt as a country is not known for its tolerance. This does not mean that Egyptians aren't friendly or hospitable.

vanesch

May3-08, 11:41 PM

nabki

May4-08, 01:29 AM

well said flowerthrower. one thing i have to say is we do have freedom to talk just no freedom of speech. everyone criticizes the institute they work in and how it should be done, and everyone discusses politics. note that anyone in the ME has access to: al-jazeera (indipendent, qatar) alarabiya (saudi) alhurra (gorge bush) al-fayhaa ( iraqi resistance) russia today, CNN, ABC, CNBC, al-manar (hezbullah) palestine tv (fatah), al-quds TV (hamas) and BBC to name but a few. so we get a pretty wide representation of international views.
oh, and ahmedezz, what is your occupation? does it begin with an m (in arabic) and end with a t? and have a kh sound in the middle? i am sure you know what i mean.

jaap de vries

May4-08, 03:23 AM

oh, and ahmedezz, what is your occupation? does it begin with an m (in arabic) and end with a t? and have a kh sound in the middle? i am sure you know what i mean.

Yeah Ahmed any change you are a MKHT??? :confused:

nabki

May4-08, 05:06 AM

i think ahmed knows what i am talking about.

AhmedEzz

May4-08, 08:38 AM

i think ahmed knows what i am talking about.

not really...but i'm an second year engineering student.Besides, i don't think its decent to try and refer to arabic words that no one can understand on an English forum.

Just throw in the France, Germans, Spanish, Portuguese and you just described about 800 years of our history.

I am aware of the history and the unfair hands of cards that have been dealt throughout history.

Great, can u tell me how many years it took you to be in the luxurious state you're in? Now take out the EU support and imagine how more it could have taken..

Egypt as a country is not known for its tolerance. This does not mean that Egyptians aren't friendly or hospitable.

How can you know, what is your source of info? Have you ever been to Egypt? People make a country that is managed by the government, so when you say Egypt "as a country" what are you referring to?

jaap de vries

May4-08, 12:21 PM

Great, can u tell me how many years it took you to be in the luxurious state you're in? Now take out the EU support and imagine how more it could have taken..

Actually the Netherlands has since the beginning been the largest contributor per capita to the EU somehow the Dutch people are to stupid to realize that we get hardly anything for that in return and that most important decisions are made in Europe.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4721307.stm
http://www.finfacts.ie/irelandbusinessnews/publish/article_10002079.shtml

How can you know, what is your source of info? Have you ever been to Egypt? People make a country that is managed by the government, so when you say Egypt "as a country" what are you referring to?

If I say Egypt as a Country I mean the government and their policies. and my sources there are UN, human right watch, etc.

AhmedEzz

May4-08, 03:44 PM

So you mean that the Egyptian government is a tolerant one...hmm, the gov. is not tolerant in with the opposition and the radicals and I agree with you there. However, the government is very tolerant with foreigners and tourists are more than welcomed which the original question. Your reference to the Egyptian policies with regards to the opposition is what started this useless debate, you should have made yourself clearer and maybe stuck to the subject.
However, nice having a debate with you :)

Red Rum

May5-08, 04:05 AM

An interesting discussion that has strayed significantly from the original question. I've lived, worked and holidayed in a few Arab countries. A lot of my friends from my student days emigrated to places like Iraq , Libya and Saudi Arabia to make money at the start of their careers. At the time the economy of the country where I grew up was on its knees and jobs for university qualified people were hard to find. I moved to Saudi Arabia where I worked on a dairy farm and ran a milk and yoghurt processing plant. The farm itself was effectively a compound similar to those that housed foreigners in the major cities, but completely isolated. Before I moved there I signed an agreement that I would respect the laws of the state with particular reference to not indulging in illegal drugs (including alcohol) and fraternising with women other than my wife and mother. And since I signed a single contract that effectively meant agreeing to 2 years of celibacy. In theory at least. As Christians and westerners we were forbidden contact with most moslems lest we infect them with our heathen ways. On the other hand, we were treated quite liberally compared to the guest workers from third world coutries. The Saudis at the time I was there still hadn't quite mastered the distinction between slaves, servants and employees. Most western exapts living there are sent home for up to a month three times per year for their own sanity. I have been back there a few times as a consultant and I can say that things appear to have disimproved. The system has become more repressive. The laws, which were relaxed a little during and after the Gulf War, are more rigorously enforced and the amount of censorship has increased. Meanwhile women are repressed as much as ever and still are not allowed to drive or have any contact with any member of the opposite sex other than their father or husband (or brothers under certain circumstances) once they are over 14. Meanwhile, with the rise of militant islamic fundamentalism and its manipulation, the country has become a lot more dangerous for foreigners.
The authorities tend to not want to know what goes on in the western compounds, but like all countries, you never break the law in any visible way. If you do, you suffer the consequences. For us at the time the greatest risk was to be caught brewing or distilling, which was punishable by jail and flogging, but could usually be preempted by simple deportation. In extreme cases the punishment was enheading, but I only ever saw that happen to third country nationals. I know of a few nurses who were deported and had prostitute stamped in their passports for being seen in public with members of the opposite sex. If course I broke the laws of that country regularly but discretely.

I've visited countries like Morocco, Tunisia and Egypt as a tourist and can say that I found the people mostly very friendly and helpful and these countries have a lot to offer, despite their politics and governments. I highly recommend them, but if you visit them, have respect for the laws and cultures of the land. You're a guest in their country, so behave appropriately.

AhmedEzz

May5-08, 10:31 AM

I agree with what you said, but something really bothers me that I'm not sure whether its true or not. The thing is that when someone refers to the middle east people usually think what RedRum just described, oppression and radicalism. But i think that people should realise that not ALL the countries are like that. For example there's Egypt, Tunisia, Morroco, Jordan and Lebanon who are liberal countries that are not oppresive or radical at all.
Westerners think of the Middle East as one country with one thinking and one radicalism, but this is not true. Just as Europe, EU countries are not the same. The Dutch are not like the Spanish or the French and so on. So I hope that this becomes clearer for you guys, if one refers to Iran as a radical country in the Middle East, it doesn't mean that all countries are like that.

Red Rum

May5-08, 04:11 PM

Don't get me wrong, Ahmedzz. I may not have been entirely happy with my conditions in Saudi, but I was there by choice and benefited in a whole host of ways, so I made no complaints about it. I found many Saudis to be very friendly and open and was invited into the homes of plenty of Saudis with whom I came into contact through business. I think Islam is a fine philosophy of how to live your life cleanly and without enforcing your beliefs on others. I admire Arab culture and achievements and I think the various dialects of Arabic can be quite beautiful. There are so many things about the various countries in the middle east and north Africa that I like that I could write for days. But our cultures differ and we have to remember that when we interact, respect our differences and concentrate on what we have in common.

May5-08, 04:34 PM

For example there's Egypt (...) who are liberal countries that are not oppresive or radical at all.

That's actually the opposite of what I have heard from friends visiting Egypt. In fact they were pretty shocked about the oppression of women in Egypt. For example, they hardly saw a single woman anywhere on the streets. I guess this is not in agreement with your impression though?

russ_watters

May5-08, 05:52 PM

That's actually the opposite of what I have heard from friends visiting Egypt. In fact they were pretty shocked about the oppression of women in Egypt. For example, they hardly saw a single woman anywhere on the streets. I guess this is not in agreement with your impression though? Everything is relative. To someone from the ME, Egypt might be liberal. To someone from the West, Egypt is still pretty repressive. A century on, women have made many strides towards to his, and their, goal.

They can vote; they are significant part of the workforce and there are now two women in the Egyptian cabinet.

But they're not allowed to travel abroad without the permission of their husbands; it's hard for them to initiate divorce; and they can't - like Qassem Amin - become judges. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/483309.stm

Long way to go.

AhmedEzz

May6-08, 08:56 AM

That's actually the opposite of what I have heard from friends visiting Egypt. In fact they were pretty shocked about the oppression of women in Egypt. For example, they hardly saw a single woman anywhere on the streets. I guess this is not in agreement with your impression though?

I don't have an impression, I live there. Women are free to do anything except maybe prostitution or running naked in the street or so but women are NOT oppressed at all in Egypt. This is a direct result of misconceptions and pre-conceptions. In the far South, in Luxor for example, Women are not as free as they are in the rest of Egypt. By that I mean that they have to wear "adequate" clothing and be less social with men. Probably this is because of ignorance and old habits but this is not the country's making. And this definetly does not define oppression.

Red Rum

May6-08, 11:49 AM

Everything is relative. To someone from the ME, Egypt might be liberal. To someone from the West, Egypt is still pretty repressive.
Long way to go.

Correct. And the difference between the treatment of women in Egypt and Saudi is that in Saudi the repression is enshrined in law. What westerners may perceive as repression in Egypt has more to do with tradition. Women may be technically free to do whatever they wish, but their tradition means that in many areas they will behave much more conservatively than women in the west. Remember that in many conservative parts of Europe women could also have been considered to be repressed until relatively recently.

May6-08, 02:03 PM

I don't have an impression, I live there. Women are free to do anything except maybe prostitution or running naked in the street or so but women are NOT oppressed at all in Egypt.

Good to hear. I have to talk to my friends again.

In the far South, in Luxor for example, Women are not as free as they are in the rest of Egypt. By that I mean that they have to wear "adequate" clothing and be less social with men. Probably this is because of ignorance and old habits but this is not the country's making. And this definetly does not define oppression.

??? This is clearly oppression!

May6-08, 02:04 PM

Remember that in many conservative parts of Europe women could also have been considered to be repressed until relatively recently.

I would say women are still, more or less, repressed everywhere in the world.

Red Rum

May6-08, 02:46 PM

I would say women are still, more or less, repressed everywhere in the world.
Even in Sweden?

May6-08, 04:16 PM

Even in Sweden?
Sure. Just watch the sallary statistics in any western country.

Red Rum

May6-08, 04:25 PM

Sure. Just watch the sallary statistics in any western country.

Percentile differences in salary equate with repression? In a country where a bus driver earns marginally less than a university professor, I would have thought that was the least of your issues. I grant you there may be a glass ceiling in many businesses concerning womens' promotion. But I don't hear any of the women in my company complaining, especially with the maternity benefits available. And I don't mean this as a cheap shot. Just that each sex enjoys different benefits. My sector happens to be dominated by women and if they don't progress in their careers it's usually a choice they make.

May6-08, 04:40 PM

Percentile differences in salary equate with repression?
Men and women getting different average sallaries for the same jobs is a sign of repression.

In a country where a bus driver earns marginally less than a university professor, I would have thought that was the least of your issues.
First, if "a country" is ment to be Sweden, then you have just fallen for the myths. A university professor of course earns much more. Anyway, different sallaries for different kind of jobs is no problem. It is when men and women get different sallaries for the same kind of jobs which equates with repression. Also, it could be a problem if men and women are not given the same oportunities to advance to the better payed jobs.

But I don't hear any of the women in my company complaining, especially with the maternity benefits available. And I don't mean this as a cheap shot.
Why should maternity benefits be more worth for a women than for a man?

Just that each sex enjoys different benefits.
That's been kind of the slogan for the last hundred years.

My sector happens to be dominated by women and if they don't progress in their careers it's usually a choice they make.
Why do you think more women than men "choose" not to progress?

AhmedEzz

May6-08, 05:11 PM

they have to wear "adequate" clothing and be less social with men
??? This is clearly oppression!

Don't be naive mate, oppression is much much worse than this. Oppression for example, can be when women can't go to the beach just because they are women, or because when women can't get a job just because of her sex, or when a woman can get beaten up by her husband and the law doesn't fully cover her up or when the women can't get adequate education just because of their sex and so on....but the clothing and socializing aspect that I referred to is no more than just tradition that will go away by time and newer more educated generations.
And I only referred to the far South only, but in the rest of Egypt its fine.

May6-08, 05:30 PM

Don't be naive mate, oppression is much much worse than this.
It seems we are not agreeing here.

Oppression for example, can be when women can't go to the beach just because they are women, or because when women can't get a job just because of her sex, or when a woman can get beaten up by her husband and the law doesn't fully cover her up or when the women can't get adequate education just because of their sex
...or cannot ware certian kind of clothes that men are allowed to, or are not allowed to speak to the opposite sex in the same way as men can...

but the clothing and socializing aspect that I referred to is no more than just tradition that will go away by time and newer more educated generations.
It still exists, and it is still opression. (Opression can of course exist without being supported by the government.)

And I only referred to the far South only, but in the rest of Egypt its fine.
Sounds good. (Although we seem to have very different opinions of what counts as "fine".)

vanesch

May7-08, 04:15 AM

I moved the EU-related posts to a new thread "EU stability" because they really got totally off-topic here...

AhmedEzz

May7-08, 06:12 AM

We don't have that much of a difference as what counts as fine, yes what i referred to maybe a sign of oppression but what i meant to say is that there are different cases and levels of oppression. Oppression is a word that the media tends to use alot, so when one says that women are oppressed in Egypt others get the impression of the real cases of oppression which I referred to in the previous post, which of course is not the case in Egypt. Minor oppression can best describe the case in Egypt. Which I am not fine with, of course, but still not bothered too much since as I said, these are old habits that will probably end with newer generations and proper education.
Glad we talked about that subject as well :)

Red Rum

May7-08, 07:56 AM

Men and women getting different average sallaries for the same jobs is a sign of repression.

First, if "a country" is ment to be Sweden, then you have just fallen for the myths. A university professor of course earns much more. Anyway, different sallaries for different kind of jobs is no problem. It is when men and women get different sallaries for the same kind of jobs which equates with repression. Also, it could be a problem if men and women are not given the same oportunities to advance to the better payed jobs.

Why should maternity benefits be more worth for a women than for a man?

That's been kind of the slogan for the last hundred years.

Why do you think more women than men "choose" not to progress?

EL, that's hardly the most constructive of posts. You live in one of the most progressive and equal opportunity countries in the world yet you seem to have some sort of chip on your shoulder about women being repressed by lack of opportunity or equality. I'm very sorry for your troubles. When my workload doubles because two of my colleagues are on well merited maternity leave, I don't complain about it because they are entitled to it. If this means their careers may have to take a back seat, that is their decision. But if the right woman wants to have my babies, do my job and let me take the maternity leave and suspend my career indefinitely, no problem. I'm all in favour.

nabki

May7-08, 03:06 PM

...or cannot ware certian kind of clothes that men are allowed to, or are not allowed to speak to the opposite sex in the same way as men can...

source

but the clothing and socializing aspect that I referred to is no more than just tradition that will go away by time and newer more educated generations.

It still exists, and it is still opression. (Opression can of course exist without being supported by the government.)

ok, you are probably referring to the hijab. i will talk about all the arab world except for saudi arabia: the hijab is a matter of honour and self respect for women. women here have the 'freedom' to dress a bimbos but most have the self-respect and intellect to not do that. personally in the arab world when i see a woman who wears a proper hijab, not the total all face 'ninja' style hijab (some scholars actually prohibit that style, and i personally find some of them pretty scary), but the one where face is not hidden away, i respect her for the decision she has made, for the respect she has for herself and her society, for her belief that beauty is not mostly cosmetic, i respect her more. i respect her for her decision to do what in her opinion is right. very few women are forced into wearing the hijab, and statistically those who are forced to NOT wear the hijab are more that those who are forced to wear it ( excluding Saudi Arabia of course).
by the way, for those of you who want to start on Islamic repression of women, go on. women are allowed to wear silk and gold, men aren't even allowed to wear those materials in heaven. women don't have to spend a single penny of their money on their selves or their families. that is the duty of their fathers, brothers, husbands and other male relatives consecutively. men in sharia law are not allowed to be witnesses in certain court cases where women are the only acceptable witnesses.

May7-08, 05:02 PM

EL, that's hardly the most constructive of posts. (...) I'm very sorry for your troubles. (...) yet you seem to have some sort of chip on your shoulder...
Speaking about constructive comments. I'll just ignore them and go on.

You live in one of the most progressive and equal opportunity countries in the world ... about women being repressed by lack of opportunity or equality.
The goal is not to be the best, but to eliminate the problem. Are you saying there is no problem with repression of women in the western countries?

When my workload doubles because two of my colleagues are on well merited maternity leave, I don't complain about it because they are entitled to it. If this means their careers may have to take a back seat, that is their decision.
Why do you think the majority of the people who "takes a back seat" are women?

May7-08, 05:07 PM

source
Here it is:
In the far South, in Luxor for example, Women are not as free as they are in the rest of Egypt. By that I mean that they have to wear "adequate" clothing and be less social with men.

women here have the 'freedom' to dress a bimbos but most have the self-respect and intellect to not do that.
Freedom according to the law maybe, but what about the pressure from the society? Please also define what you mean by "dress as bimbos".

kasse

May7-08, 06:44 PM

As far as I know, critizising religion is not allowed here.

jaap de vries

May8-08, 01:20 AM

source

ok, you are probably referring to the hijab. i will talk about all the arab world except for saudi arabia: the hijab is a matter of honour and self respect for women. women here have the 'freedom' to dress a bimbos but most have the self-respect and intellect to not do that. personally in the arab world when i see a woman who wears a proper hijab, not the total all face 'ninja' style hijab (some scholars actually prohibit that style, and i personally find some of them pretty scary), but the one where face is not hidden away, i respect her for the decision she has made, for the respect she has for herself and her society, for her belief that beauty is not mostly cosmetic, i respect her more. i respect her for her decision to do what in her opinion is right. very few women are forced into wearing the hijab, and statistically those who are forced to NOT wear the hijab are more that those who are forced to wear it ( excluding Saudi Arabia of course).
by the way, for those of you who want to start on Islamic repression of women, go on. women are allowed to wear silk and gold, men aren't even allowed to wear those materials in heaven. women don't have to spend a single penny of their money on their selves or their families. that is the duty of their fathers, brothers, husbands and other male relatives consecutively. men in sharia law are not allowed to be witnesses in certain court cases where women are the only acceptable witnesses.

Hey man its all all right. Its so great in y'alls country that such large numbers decide to hit the road and come to countries like Holland where they transport there intolerance in mosques paid for with my tax euros. Or kill one of our most famous movie makers or, or bomb a bus in London, or a train in Spain, or an airport in Scotland.
We have some of the most radical imams in Europe (http://islamineurope.blogspot.com/2008/04/netherlands-radical-imam-teachers-to.html) for some reason preaching how gays should be thrown of high buildings and that Europeans are lower then pigs and dogs (http://www.nicotmvink.nl/2-1homosex.html) for allowing gays in their country. These Imams are not from Saudi Arabia but usually from Morocco, sometimes Egypt. So I am sorry I don't believe these countries are tolerant and neither seem the people that come from there. It turned the Netherlands from a tolerant Country to a Intolerant Country which is to expect because intolerance always wins against intolerance as.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3974179.stm

May8-08, 02:29 AM

As far as I know, critizising religion is not allowed here.
Who is critizising religion?

Cyrus

May8-08, 01:55 PM

Its funny to read the people from the Middle East try to say its a tolerant place. :rofl:

Mmmmm,...yeah....No. Sorry. It's not a tolerant place. Not by a long shot. In many ways I'd say its a backwards place.

Cyrus

May8-08, 02:00 PM

Hey man its all all right. Its so great in y'alls country that such large numbers decide to hit the road and come to countries like Holland where they transport there intolerance in mosques paid for with my tax euros. Or kill one of our most famous movie makers or, or bomb a bus in London, or a train in Spain, or an airport in Scotland.
We have some of the most radical imams in Europe (http://islamineurope.blogspot.com/2008/04/netherlands-radical-imam-teachers-to.html) for some reason preaching how gays should be thrown of high buildings and that Europeans are lower then pigs and dogs (http://www.nicotmvink.nl/2-1homosex.html) for allowing gays in their country. These Imams are not from Saudi Arabia but usually from Morocco, sometimes Egypt. So I am sorry I don't believe these countries are tolerant and neither seem the people that come from there. It turned the Netherlands from a tolerant Country to a Intolerant Country which is to expect because intolerance always wins against intolerance as.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3974179.stm

I think they should deport all these islamic radicals back to their countries and freeze all their funds.

May8-08, 02:33 PM

I think they should deport all these islamic radicals back to their countries and freeze all their funds.

When they commit a crime, yes. Before that, freedom of speach most hold equally for everyone.

mheslep

May8-08, 03:00 PM

I think they should deport all these islamic radicals back to their countries and freeze all their funds.Exactly how does one identify an Islamic radical? Outrageous speech? Beard and sandals? Combo?

jaap de vries

May8-08, 10:08 PM

Exactly how does one identify an Islamic radical? Outrageous speech? Beard and sandals? Combo?

Thats a good point and off course slightly subjective. I am no xenophobe so I don't care about clothing too much accept when they get in the way of public safety like a full cover ninja suit for women.

Outrageous speech definitely makes you a radical. The "outrageousness" depends on the frame of reference, which for me is the Netherlands or the US where I live now. I am sure that saying that Europeans are lower that pigs and dogs is perfectly fine in many Arabic countries. However, were I am from it is not and sounds radical. doesn't matter if it is said in a suit and tie or in a traditional attire with sandals.

Cyrus

May9-08, 02:42 AM

Exactly how does one identify an Islamic radical? Outrageous speech? Beard and sandals? Combo?

I think its pretty clear in the context of what I was talking about. The imams preaching hate speech in Europe. Box them up and ship them out.

I dont think a foreigner has the right to go to another country and trash the people there. If the do, they can get the hell out and leave.

Cyrus

May9-08, 02:43 AM

When they commit a crime, yes. Before that, freedom of speach most hold equally for everyone.

Not hate speech. If you're not a citizen, and your spreading that kind of garbage, they should boot you back to abdu-dabi, or whatever desert they came from.

My patience for these islamic people is about as thin as it is for conservative christians in the US, non-existant. (Sorry, just being honest).

nabki

May9-08, 04:52 AM

I think they should deport all these Islamic radicals back to their countries and freeze all their funds.

immigrants to western countries don't have the right to implement sharia law on their own, that has to be done by a lawful Islamic government. as for deporting them, they will just become more radical. you can keep them and put them on trial. being homosexual is not a preference, it is a disorder, and you cant punish a disorder. what is punishable is homosexual acts.

I am sure that saying that Europeans are lower that pigs and dogs is perfectly fine in many Arabic countries.

no it is not. most Arabs view Europeans as cultured and technologically advanced. most Arabs also believe that Europeans have morally gone backwards.
From an Islamic point of view, all humans are equal in Allah's eye except in iman(belief). calling other people lower that dogs and pigs is not acceptable. we are not proud of people who do such things. and we do not condole such acts of barbarism.

Exactly how does one identify an Islamic radical? Outrageous speech? Beard and sandals? Combo?

the most easy way is looking for an explosive belt. or you could follow the bush method and torture everyone with slightly dark skin, or a beard, or sandals, or a headdress, or black hair, or a mid-eastern accent, etc etc etc...

Mmmmm,...yeah....No. Sorry. It's not a tolerant place. Not by a long shot. In many ways I'd say its a backwards place.

proof. you know, many people think that in the middle east it is normal to belch at a meal too. strange....

We have some of the most radical imams in Europe

al-qardawi, the most respected and influential sunni(and probably muslim) scholar in the world was not allowed to enter Britain a few months ago. he was going to do a seminar about how terrorism, radicalism and such things are prohibited in islam...

Cyrus

May9-08, 01:35 PM

immigrants to western countries don't have the right to implement sharia law on their own, that has to be done by a lawful Islamic government. as for deporting them, they will just become more radical. you can keep them and put them on trial. being homosexual is not a preference, it is a disorder, and you cant punish a disorder. what is punishable is homosexual acts.

Yeah, but I dont care how crazy they become in their own country as long as they leave me alone in my own country. Also, your comments on homosexuality are laughable. A disorder?.....

no it is not. most Arabs view Europeans as cultured and technologically advanced. most Arabs also believe that Europeans have morally gone backwards.
From an Islamic point of view, all humans are equal in Allah's eye except in iman(belief). calling other people lower that dogs and pigs is not acceptable. we are not proud of people who do such things. and we do not condole such acts of barbarism.

I think its funny that arabs, with very low moral standards on human living of their own people, say that europeans have 'gone backwards' by giving people equal rights that arabs themselves wont give. Hence, why I said earlier that it makes me laugh to hear anyone from the middle east try to defend it as 'tolerant'.

al-qardawi, the most respected and influential sunni(and probably muslim) scholar in the world was not allowed to enter Britain a few months ago. he was going to do a seminar about how terrorism, radicalism and such things are prohibited in islam...

Britain has way too many radical islamists that should have been deported long time ago IMO.

May9-08, 02:07 PM

being homosexual is not a preference, it is a disorder
Disorder? Why ffs would homosexuality be a disorder?
This tells me a lot about your conception of tolerance.
To me it is like saying that you are disordered just because you don't happen to like the same kind of cars as I do.
and you cant punish a disorder. what is punishable is homosexual acts.
Punishing homosexual acts is extreme intolerance, and no country which does so can ever call themselves civilized. (I'm not sure wheter you are defending this or not though?)

Gokul43201

May9-08, 02:28 PM

Someone mentioned not seeing many Egyptian women walk the streets unaccompanied. This is true. It is also pretty difficult for single women to get a visa to travel to many countries in the ME (even the UAE and Bahrain).

Polls show that, even by Middle Eastern standards, Egyptians and Jordanians tend to be more religious, chauvinistic and intolerant of homosexuality than most other countries in the region, while the Turks and Lebanese tend to be the least.

For reference, a recent global survey: http://pewglobal.org/reports/display.php?ReportID=258

lisab

May9-08, 02:43 PM

AhmedEzz

May9-08, 04:16 PM

I left this thread 2 days ago, and it was a cultural discussion about arab countries. I find alot of tension and confusion in those comments. Please guys lets chill and respect one another for a second.
This is a very complicated topic you're talking about, that involves alot of people and your comments may offend another person, even if you don't mean it.

"kill one of our most famous movie makers or, or bomb a bus in London, or a train in Spain, or an airport in Scotland. "
This is extreme ignorance, do you think Islamic world enshrines these actions? mate wake up...This was a terrorist cell and that's a matter that these countries need to deal with and not our fault.

"preaching how gays should be thrown of high buildings and that Europeans are lower then pigs and dogs for allowing gays in their country"

I have NEVER once in my whole life heard an Imam saying that. However, I do imagine that they exist but again this is not our fault or product. This is the responsibility of the country they are preaching in.

"I think they should deport all these islamic radicals back to their countries and freeze all their funds."

talk to me about tolerance

"Exactly how does one identify an Islamic radical? Outrageous speech? Beard and sandals? Combo?"
Its not the beards, anyone can have beards or shave them, its not the speech for even the most neutral can have a fiery speech and the most radical can have a nice quiet speech. I think its all about the person, who is he and how does he think. This is personal stuff and can't be generalised over a region. You can't say just because a German named Hitler did bad stuff than all Germans are bad.

"saying that Europeans are lower that pigs and dogs is perfectly fine in many Arabic countries"
Guys who tells you this stuff..please for argument's sake mind you words. We respect Europeans for en lighting the world with technology. Europeans have made many many contributions that helped mankind. However, they are very unfair regarding the Arab-Israeli conflict that should have ended a long time ago, even now still lies a chance but the world has to be just and fair.

"Someone mentioned not seeing many Egyptian women walk the streets unaccompanied. This is true"

proof??????

Care should eb taken when providing resources, since many web resources contain many incorrect and biased information. Please try to find a credible source.

Its very sad how the media in the West is broadcasting messages of hate against Islam. What is more sad is that Europeans, who are supposed to be educated and objective are buying this stuff. Islam is an idea, a belief, a way of life and that is all that it is. Islam is not responsible for people who believe in it. Alot can do things in the name of Christianity and Jews but this does not by any way mean that the religion asked them to do it. Please no more throwing of accusations and be objective and consider what you are saying before actually saying it. I meant no offense to anyone and I hope this will be the rational discussion it once was.

Cyrus

May9-08, 04:26 PM

AhmedEzz, you need to realize that I dont tolerate imams that preach hate. If you move to another country, and you start saying these kinds of things then you should be kicked out. Dont confuse tolerance with sitting by while people try and erode tolerance in their country.

May9-08, 05:14 PM

women are NOT oppressed at all in Egypt.

For curiosity, let's have a look at the Global Gender Gap Report 2007 from the World Economic Forum: http://www.weforum.org/en/initiatives/gcp/Gender%20Gap/GenderGap

The rankings of in total 128 countries,
http://www.weforum.org/pdf/gendergap/rankings2007.pdf ,
looks like:

1. Sweden
2. Norway
3. Finland
4. Iceland
5. New Zeeland
6. Philippines
7. Germany
8. Denmark
9. Ireland
10. Spain
11. United Kingdom
12. Netherlands
...
31. USA
32. Kazakhstan
...
50. Uganda
51. France
...
73.China
...
84. Italy
...
114. India
115. Bahrain
116. Cameroon
117. Burkina Faso
118. Iran
119. Oman
120. Egypt
121. Turkey
122. Morocco
123. Benin
124. Saudi Arabia
125. Nepal
126. Pakistan
127. Chad
128. Yemen

I think we still have a lot to do in Sweden. You think women are not oppressed at all in Egypt...

Red Rum

May9-08, 05:51 PM

Cyrus

May9-08, 05:55 PM

Just as foreigners have to wear a head scarf in the middle east, I think it should be manditory that people that visit the west are NOT allowed to wear a head scarf. Just out of spite. :biggrin:

Evo

May9-08, 06:04 PM

An interesting article I read today about a young Egyptian girl being sold into slavery by her parents. According to the Egyptian couple that bought her, it's common place in Egypt. I would assume among the very poor.

http://www.rd.com/your-america-inspiring-people-and-stories/slave-in-the-garage/article55737.html

May9-08, 06:46 PM

EL, that's a very interesting table. It's not the subject of this thread, but perhaps instead of responding to my questions with questions of your own you listed some of the ways in which European women are repressed/oppressed/ discriminated against we can have a civilised discussion about it. And perhaps move it to another thread.
I guess I should clearify my questions since some of them were quite retoric.

Why should maternity benefits be more worth for a women than for a man? This was a reaction to (what I interpreted as) an attempt from you to say something along: women should not complain about getting lower sallaries since they have such great maternity benefits instead.
It is true that staying home with children should give a temporary flatten out of the sallary curve (since you do no progress at work while you are at home). My objection was though that you seemed to take for granted it should be the woman who stayed home with the children.
In Sweden (and I guess in many other western countries) the parents have the freedom to distribute the maternity benefits among themselves (almost) according to their own choice, but still it is usually the woman who stayes home for a majority of the days. If this was of free choice it would be no problem, but many times the reason is purely economic: the man earnes more money, and hence it is economically favourable for the family to let him work, which then leads to an even larger gap in sallaries between the genders.
What I mean is that in a society without repression of women, i.e. when the average sallaries of men and woman are the same, the "maternity benefits" argument is (at least from an economical point of view) gender neutral.

Why do you think more women than men "choose" not to progress?
You said that if a woman don't progress in their careers it's usually a choice they make, and I wanted to argue that this should hold for men too. If "choosing not to progress" was really a free choice there would be no problem, but then there should be about as many men as women choosing so. And this is definitely not what is observed.

Are you saying there is no problem with repression of women in the western countries? This was an honest question for you, since I'm not really sure of your opinion here.

Why do you think the majority of the people who "takes a back seat" are women? This is connected to the "choose not to progress" treated above.

May9-08, 06:55 PM

Just as foreigners have to wear a head scarf in the middle east, I think it should be manditory that people that visit the west are NOT allowed to wear a head scarf. Just out of spite. :biggrin:
So you want to protest agains stupid rules by inventing stupid rules?

(Edit: ouch, a retoric question from me again. Should have just said something along: I don't think it is a good idea to protest against stupid rules by inventing stupid rules.)

Cyrus

May9-08, 07:21 PM

So you want to protest agains stupid rules by inventing stupid rules?

(Edit: ouch, a retoric question from me again. Should have just said something along: I don't think it is a good idea to protest against stupid rules by inventing stupid rules.)

Obviously, I wasnt being serious.

Gokul43201

May9-08, 09:30 PM

"Someone mentioned not seeing many Egyptian women walk the streets unaccompanied. This is true"

proof??????Proof? I've been to Egypt (and Turkey) and seen this myself. Besides, the evidence is there in the link I provided.

Care should eb taken when providing resources, since many web resources contain many incorrect and biased information. Please try to find a credible source.
Are you calling the Pew Research Center an unreliable source?

AhmedEzz

May10-08, 08:37 AM

Are you calling the Pew Research Center an unreliable source?
I wasn't referring to the PEW RC, I was talking in general.

I've been to Egypt (and Turkey) and seen this myself

Where in Egypt did you go?

An interesting article I read today about a young Egyptian girl being sold into slavery by her parents. According to the Egyptian couple that bought her, it's common place in Egypt. I would assume among the very poor.

A year ago, I wrote a research paper called "Modern Slavery", so I know what you're talking about. But let me tell you this, its not just Egypt, its not just Africa, its a worldwide issue.

Just as foreigners have to wear a head scarf in the middle east, I think it should be manditory that people that visit the west are NOT allowed to wear a head scarf. Just out of spite.

Foreigners DON'T have to wear a head scarf except in Saudi Arabia and Iran. And what's wrong with a head scarf, that you want to ban it? Its a matter of beliefs so respect it and try to be understanding.

women are NOT oppressed at all in Egypt.
Hmm, it seems you provide credible evidence, so let me re-phrase my words : women are sometimes oppressed in Egypt.

AhmedEzz, you need to realize that I dont tolerate imams that preach hate. If you move to another country, and you start saying these kinds of things then you should be kicked out. Dont confuse tolerance with sitting by while people try and erode tolerance in their country.

Neither do I. I don't think anyone should tolerate those who are preaching hate. But before judging, I think you should know what they are saying. Not all preachers preach hate, preachers preach about love, life, morals, religion, and so and so...Western media tend to exaggerate and generalize alot. However, I know how well Europeans are educated and I know they are reasoning people, they should not believe everything that's being told to them.

I want to say a thing, there is Islam, there's the West and there's someone in the middle poisoning the relation between the two. I think that the major source of poison throughout the years has been the Arab-Israeli conflict, it should have ended a long time ago but it didn't. Extremists are using this to recruit more people to extremists cause, if this conflict is resolved -and i think it can- then the world would have ended a major source of corruption in the region.

Red Rum

May10-08, 08:39 AM

I guess I should clearify my questions since some of them were quite retoric.

This was a reaction to (what I interpreted as) an attempt from you to say something along: women should not complain about getting lower sallaries since they have such great maternity benefits instead.
It is true that staying home with children should give a temporary flatten out of the sallary curve (since you do no progress at work while you are at home). My objection was though that you seemed to take for granted it should be the woman who stayed home with the children.
In Sweden (and I guess in many other western countries) the parents have the freedom to distribute the maternity benefits among themselves (almost) according to their own choice, but still it is usually the woman who stayes home for a majority of the days. If this was of free choice it would be no problem, but many times the reason is purely economic: the man earnes more money, and hence it is economically favourable for the family to let him work, which then leads to an even larger gap in sallaries between the genders.
What I mean is that in a society without repression of women, i.e. when the average sallaries of men and woman are the same, the "maternity benefits" argument is (at least from an economical point of view) gender neutral.

You said that if a woman don't progress in their careers it's usually a choice they make, and I wanted to argue that this should hold for men too. If "choosing not to progress" was really a free choice there would be no problem, but then there should be about as many men as women choosing so. And this is definitely not what is observed.

This was an honest question for you, since I'm not really sure of your opinion here.

This is connected to the "choose not to progress" treated above.

And in fact I agree with all of your comments. However I disagree that the bias towards women taking career breaks to have children equates with oppression. I see it as acceptance of a biological fact. There are laws that prevent sex discrimination in salaries, but it is largely up to the individual to make sure that he or she gets what they deserve. In most of Europe men and women start on the same salary and salaries diverge mainly because men tend to get promoted more often or faster than women (although not in most of the companies I've worked with;75% of my bosses have been women). Most of the companies I worked with operate a results based appraisal (RBA) which tended to favour women who tend to be very focussed on specific tasks (I know I'm generalising, but I find women are very good at completing tasks while men tend to like starting tasks and taking them so far before they get bored and want to start something new). The RBA system favours people who like telling the organisation how good they are. Companies tend to reward as little as they can get away with. So in general if a divergence in salary occurs, it's down to the individual. And half the trick is writing targets that you know in advance can be easily achieved. After that everything else is a bonus. If discrimination against women is written into the salary, of course it's wrong and I'm sure in most cases illegal. Many of the jobs I've had in the last 20 years couldn't have been performed by women anyway simply because of the situations in which I worked. It's a sad fact that I can't hire a female trouble shooter because they would not be able to work in most of the cultural environments where they would be expected to work, e.g. most of Africa, The Middle east, China and many parts of south Asia. 70% of the people working at my level in Europe are women. If they get paid less than me it's because I have a lot more experience and live in a more expensive country.

But I think you should keep things in perspective. There are far more serious issues of oppression and inequality confronting women than work and pay conditions in Europe.

Cyrus

May10-08, 12:40 PM

Foreigners DON'T have to wear a head scarf except in Saudi Arabia and Iran. And what's wrong with a head scarf, that you want to ban it? Its a matter of beliefs so respect it and try to be understanding.

I dont agree with it, so theres no reason why I should be made to respect it. Its the fact that women have to wear a hijab or a chadoor, and men have to wear long pants and long sleve shirts, even if they are NOT muslim.

Neither do I. I don't think anyone should tolerate those who are preaching hate. But before judging, I think you should know what they are saying. Not all preachers preach hate, preachers preach about love, life, morals, religion, and so and so...Western media tend to exaggerate and generalize alot. However, I know how well Europeans are educated and I know they are reasoning people, they should not believe everything that's being told to them.

Sorry, but what im talking about are Imams and people on the streets clearly chanting hate. Im not talking about big bad media showing them in a bad light. Im talking about they themselves protesting death to so-and-so. I think you need to wake up to the reality of the situation though, as you are being very apologetic and trying to make excuses.

Just google the muhammad cartoon and europe and see what the (European) muslims were chanting on the streets. They should have rounded them up from their rally and deported them. They are as sick to me as a KKK rally.

Cyrus

May10-08, 12:55 PM

But I think you should keep things in perspective. There are far more serious issues of oppression and inequality confronting women than work and pay conditions in Europe.

Id like to know what that is?

AhmedEzz

May10-08, 03:04 PM

I dont agree with it, so theres no reason why I should be made to respect it. Its the fact that women have to wear a hijab or a chadoor, and men have to wear long pants and long sleve shirts, even if they are NOT muslim.

Your agreement doesn't matter, I for one don't agree with what other religions and beliefs imply but I respect it. For if there was no respect for one another than where's the tolerance you have been crying for in the last pages?
Try to understand that you have misconceptions, don't be single-minded. Men don't HAVE to wear any of those things and women are not forced to wear anything except as I said in Iran and Saudi Arabia.

Im talking about they themselves protesting death to so-and-so. I think you need to wake up to the reality of the situation though, as you are being very apologetic and trying to make excuses.

Let me get this straight, you are banning the right to protest? Imagine if your country was under siege from another country, won't you protest? if you feel that China is screwing your country and your people over and over again, won't you protest?...mate, I think its YOU who needs to wake up.
And i'm not making excuses, and if I was making them please tell for what?

Just google the muhammad cartoon and europe and see what the (European) muslims were chanting on the streets.

Muslims value greatly their religion and the prophet Muhammad (pbuh), and they can't and will not tolerate such actions from anyone. This is a matter of respect as I referred earlier.

They should have rounded them up from their rally and deported them.

Please lower your tone, I am presenting reasonable and rational arguments and all you say is "kick em out" "Ban them" "I am sick of this", etc... this is provoking, so please stop using this tone.

Cyrus

May10-08, 03:35 PM

Your agreement doesn't matter, I for one don't agree with what other religions and beliefs imply but I respect it. For if there was no respect for one another than where's the tolerance you have been crying for in the last pages?
Try to understand that you have misconceptions, don't be single-minded. Men don't HAVE to wear any of those things and women are not forced to wear anything except as I said in Iran and Saudi Arabia.

No no, I said the M.E. should have tolerance. I.e. I should not be forced to wear a head scarf (if im a woman), or long pants (if im a man), visiting a country thats NOT my religion. That is tolerance. Your trying to turn it around by saying I should somehow respect the fact that im forced to participate in something I dont agree with, nor observe. I dont have misconceptions, im from the middle east (iran).

Let me get this straight, you are banning the right to protest? Imagine if your country was under siege from another country, won't you protest? if you feel that China is screwing your country and your people over and over again, won't you protest?...mate, I think its YOU who needs to wake up.
And i'm not making excuses, and if I was making them please tell for what?

You need to pay attention to exactly what I said. I never said 'protest'. I said if they go into the street saying 'death to so-and-so' when they are living a country that is not their home country, they should get out and leave. Were not going to play hypothetical games here about being under siege. No 'country' was under siege for those cartoons. You're example is weak.

Muslims value greatly their religion and the prophet Muhammad (pbuh), and they can't and will not tolerate such actions from anyone. This is a matter of respect as I referred earlier.

Ahem, whats that about tolerance? I have no problem with them praising islam and muhammad all day long, so long as they sell me oil, and leave me alone. I dont care how radical or nuts they are, provided they keep it to them selves in their own country.

Please lower your tone, I am presenting reasonable and rational arguments and all you say is "kick em out" "Ban them" "I am sick of this", etc... this is provoking, so please stop using this tone.

Actually, my argument has been perfectly rational. You are trying to convolute your argument with weak arguments to try and distract from what im showing you. But dont worry, my tone isnt even close to being loud, if it were -you'd know it. :smile:

Look its really this simple. If you move to another country, then you are expect to adopt the lifestyle of that country. I.e. you become 'westernized'. If you dont want to become westernized, then DONT MOVE to a western country. No one is forcing a person from the ME to move to europe or the USA.

Now, dont get me wrong. The middle east has many great aspects to it. Food, culture, history, art, architecture. HOWEVER, this means NOTHING about TOLERANCE. We need more moderates in the ME like you to weed out the nutjobs there though.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=ocU5x_03MDM

Is this 'big bad media'? I dont think so........it speaks for itself.

AhmedEzz

May10-08, 04:47 PM

I should not be forced to wear a head scarf (if im a woman), or long pants (if im a man), visiting a country thats NOT my religion. That is tolerance

don't you EVER listen...I told you three times that foreigners as well as people DON'T as in NOT COMPELLED as in NOT FORCED to wear anything with exception of Saudi Arabia and Iran.

I said if they go into the street saying 'death to so-and-so' when they are living a country that is not their home country, they should get out and leave

What you are EXACTLY saying here, is that people should not protest in a foreign country. Many of those are nationals by the way. So technically it IS their country, not necessarily their country of birth but they carry the nationality and have the every right as any citizen.

whats that about tolerance? I have no problem with them praising islam and muhammad all day long, so long as they sell me oil, and leave me alone.

Your words are totally irrelevant to the case. Some European countries insulted ALL Muslims, and it was a reaction to your actions. It was the first time the religion was being insulted so provocatively and so widely.

I dont care how radical or nuts they are, provided they keep it to them selves in their own country
Stop using provocative language, you keep using provocative words. You don't see me going on saying that Europeans are morally corrupt, lunatics, cold-blooded or double-faced...I didn't and not going to insult and you should do so as well, for the sake of a meaningful argument.

Actually, my argument has been perfectly rational.
I can see that.

If you move to another country, then you are expect to adopt the lifestyle of that country.
I agree, if anyone moves to country he should blend in the society. But what does that have to do with anything that we've been saying?

We need more moderates in the ME like you to weed out the nutjobs there though.
I agree but let me say this "Nutjobs"/extremism is not just in the ME, its worldwide, the media tends to shed the light on our extremists, like they weren't there before....

I still hold to my argument that Egypt and some countries in the ME are pretty modest and tolerant countries.

EDIT: I just saw the video, and I must say, you just picked the dirtiest example and tried to generalize it. This is by no way, by no means at all, Islam. Don't buy this crap, its not for real. Not for real at all...and by saying "protesting" I NEVER meant what I just saw. This was barbaric and these nutjobs are NOT Muslims, this is what I mean when I was referring to those in the middle poisoning the relations between the West and Islam. Again, mate, don't believe this stuff, it ain't for real.

Cyrus

May10-08, 04:57 PM

don't you EVER listen...I told you three times that foreigners as well as people DON'T as in NOT COMPELLED as in NOT FORCED to wear anything with exception of Saudi Arabia and Iran.

Yes, Im well aware of what you said. Now, do you really think a bunch of westerners running around in short shorts and bikinis is going to fly in any middle eastern country? They still have to dress conservatively.

What you are EXACTLY saying here, is that people should not protest in a foreign country. Many of those are nationals by the way. So technically it IS their country, not necessarily their country of birth but they carry the nationality and have the every right as any citizen.

I was clear in what I said. In the case that it is their country, they should be put in jail.

Your words are totally irrelevant to the case. Some European countries insulted ALL Muslims, and it was a reaction to your actions. It was the first time the religion was being insulted so provocatively and so widely.

No, it wasnt. The middle east produces cartoons of jews much worse all the time. Weak argument.

Stop using provocative language, you keep using provocative words. You don't see me going on saying that Europeans are morally corrupt, lunatics, cold-blooded or double-faced...I didn't and not going to insult and you should do so as well, for the sake of a meaningful argument.

Again, im not being provocative. Im dead serious in what I said, im not just saying it to get you worked up, and im not going to change what I said if you dont like it -sorry.

I agree, if anyone moves to country he should blend in the society. But what does that have to do with anything that we've been saying?

I hope your not serious? It has everything to do with what were saying! People in the streets saying death to so-and-so in a country thats not theirs to begin with!

I agree but let me say this "Nutjobs"/extremism is not just in the ME, its worldwide, the media tends to shed the light on our extremists, like they weren't there before....

And WORLDWIDE includes the middle east.

I still hold to my argument that Egypt and some countries in the ME are pretty modest and tolerant countries.

No, its modest and toleranct, COMPARED to other ME countries. Its not tolerant compared to the rest of the world, and thats the real benchmark.

EDIT: I just saw the video, and I must say, you just picked the dirtiest example and tried to generalize it. This is by no way, by no means at all, Islam. Don't buy this crap, its not for real. Not for real at all...and by saying "protesting" I NEVER meant what I just saw. This was barbaric and these nutjobs are NOT Muslims, this is what I mean when I was referring to those in the middle poisoning the relations between the West and Islam. Again, mate, don't believe this stuff, it ain't for real.

No, its very REAL. And THOSE people, are the ones im talking about. Not the every day muslim person that blends into european society and keeps to themsleves. You need to wake up and realize that after 9-11 people ARE going to take these people seriously and see them as a threat to stability.

AhmedEzz

May10-08, 05:42 PM

o, its very REAL. And THOSE people, are the ones im talking about. Not the every day muslim person that blends into european society and keeps to themsleves. You need to wake up and realize that after 9-11 people ARE going to take these people seriously and see them as a threat to stability.
Well, that doesn't refer in one way or another to Islam. Just as Jewish nutjobs and Christian nutjobs don't have anything to do with Judaism and Christianity as well. Its an internal affair of the country that hosts them but it relate to Islam the religion...I think all this time, we were having a miscommunication, I was never defending those people, or giving them excuses. We have the Muslim brotherhood if you heard, and we are suffering just as much as you do.
Don't apply my words on those wacks, my words and defense are for the REAL Muslims, those who are peaceful, moral, gentle and good people.
Islam teaches you all about peace, kindness, morals, life, after-life, love, tolerance, justice, work, dedication and faith. Islam is not responsible for those who call themselves Muslims.
A Muslims, like myself, are asked to 1) believe that "there is only one God and Muhammad is his prophet", 2)pray,3)fast,4)do charity and 5)pilgrim-if one can-...these are the 5 principals of Islam. That's it, nothing else...it doesn't at all enshrine violence,terror,fear and corruption and all this stuff that you hear about in the news. Islam forbids killing civilians for one.

You need to wake up and realize that after 9-11 people ARE going to take these people seriously and see them as a threat to stability.
Yes my friend but don't link this to Islam. As I said we are suffering as much as you do from them. They are nutjobs, crazy, radical, terrorists, extremists, call them whatever you like but they are NOT Muslims.

It is a pleasure talking to you, because alot of people really have a gray look, they can't tell what is the difference and what is Islam. I'm really happy with this discussion because i feel that this is what we need the most, a cross-cultural discussion to clear out the misconceptions that are ruining our relations with the West...sorry for such a long post,:rolleyes:

Cyrus

May10-08, 05:46 PM

I'll bring the Chi if you bring Ruby, and well smoke a sheesha and discuss this while she dances for us.

http://tinypic.com/ic1y0o.jpg

Well, also have to stop by lebanon and get some food. There food is the best in the world. Better than Iran, by far.

AhmedEzz

May10-08, 06:42 PM

that's a joke or you're being sarcastic?

Cyrus

May10-08, 07:20 PM

What, you dont like Ruby?

AhmedEzz

May10-08, 08:20 PM

I thought you were making fun of what I said, that's all...Ruby's cute. I don't like Eastern dancing, its lame.

Cyrus

May10-08, 10:00 PM

I thought you were making fun of what I said, that's all...Ruby's cute. I don't like Eastern dancing, its lame.

Ok, I'll bring some western infadels for you, as long as you bring me Ruby.

AhmedEzz

May11-08, 10:21 AM

what does infadels mean? I'll try to look for Hayfaa if I couldn't find Ruby.

RonPaul2008

May11-08, 10:34 PM

If I go to some Arab country like Iran or Saudi Arab, will they put me in jail for doing anything that is not allowed in their religion (not necessarily against)?

I read in news some people got prosecuted for religious based crimes.

Thanks

If you visit a foreign country you are subject to their laws, and you may not be protected under any United States rights. You may even be denied to see a member from the local American embassy in some places. Why would you wish to visit any of the countries you listed anyway?

aquitaine

May12-08, 07:28 AM

nabki

May12-08, 02:10 PM

Is this 'big bad media'? I dont think so........it speaks for itself.

Europe really needs to take the hard line against these a$$holes.

They can't be bargained with, they can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear, and they absolutely will not stop, ever, until you are dead or converted.

unrealistic radicalist. i bet you belive in (the myth of) pure evil.

Y 18:21
AhmedEzz what does infadels mean? I'll try to look for Hayfaa if I couldn't find Ruby.
Y 06:00
Cyrus Originally Posted by AhmedEzz
I thought you were making fun of what I said, that's all...Ruby's cute. I don't like Eastern dancing, its lame.

Ok, I'll bring some western infadels for you, as long as you bring me Ruby.
Y 04:20
AhmedEzz I thought you were making fun of what I said, that's all...Ruby's cute. I don't like Eastern dancing, its lame.
Y 03:20
Cyrus What, you dont like Ruby?
Y 02:42
AhmedEzz that's a joke or you're being sarcastic?
Y 01:46
Cyrus I'll bring the Chi if you bring Ruby, and well smoke a sheesha and discuss this while she dances for us.

http://tinypic.com/ic1y0o.jpg

Well, also have to stop by lebanon and get some food. There food is the best in the world. Better than Iran, by far.

please you two, stop being childish and dont start degrading this discussion, if you two continue posting such silly and irrevelant posts it will get very personal and then it will be locked... admedezz you were doing pretty well in my oppinion untill that started. and cyrus resorting to such childish posts only shows how weak and unreal your view is.

No, it wasnt. The middle east produces cartoons of jews much worse all the time. Weak argument.

proof. most of the ME is anti-zionist, not anti-semetic including such groups as hezbullah and hamas.

Originally Posted by nabki
immigrants to western countries don't have the right to implement sharia law on their own, that has to be done by a lawful Islamic government. as for deporting them, they will just become more radical. you can keep them and put them on trial. being homosexual is not a preference, it is a disorder, and you cant punish a disorder. what is punishable is homosexual acts.

Yeah, but I dont care how crazy they become in their own country as long as they leave me alone in my own country. Also, your comments on homosexuality are laughable. A disorder?.....

a disorder, as in short sightedness, autisim, diabetes etc... evolutionary, it is not a plus, and can hinder the number of a certain species, that is why you dont see totally gay species, and that is why i called it a disorder. i understand that it seemed a little nazi the way i put it but i dont say kill them because they are blind ,diabetic gay etc...

no it is not. most Arabs view Europeans as cultured and technologically advanced. most Arabs also believe that Europeans have morally gone backwards.
From an Islamic point of view, all humans are equal in Allah's eye except in iman(belief). calling other people lower that dogs and pigs is not acceptable. we are not proud of people who do such things. and we do not condole such acts of barbarism.

I think its funny that arabs, with very low moral standards on human living of their own people, say that europeans have 'gone backwards' by giving people equal rights that arabs themselves wont give. Hence, why I said earlier that it makes me laugh to hear anyone from the middle east try to defend it as 'tolerant'.

al-qardawi, the most respected and influential sunni(and probably muslim) scholar in the world was not allowed to enter Britain a few months ago. he was going to do a seminar about how terrorism, radicalism and such things are prohibited in islam...

Britain has way too many radical islamists that should have been deported long time ago IMO.

i lived in the uk for over 12 years, i think i know what i am talking about. i saw the moral degredation that was happening and that was admitted by many other people. and they arent helping the situation by not allowing the moderates in.

and it seems like i am arguing against intolerant radical westerners... sheesh.

aquitaine

May12-08, 05:11 PM

unrealistic radicalist. i bet you belive in (the myth of) pure evil.

The people in the video speak for themselves. 63% of muslims in england support terrorist acts, 32% of muslims in england think the west is immoral and should be destroyed. This is NOT a small minority and to do nothing against them will simply embolden them further.

Cyrus

May12-08, 05:17 PM

please you two, stop being childish and dont start degrading this discussion, if you two continue posting such silly and irrevelant posts it will get very personal and then it will be locked... admedezz you were doing pretty well in my oppinion untill that started. and cyrus resorting to such childish posts only shows how weak and unreal your view is.

I wasnt being childish to him, it was a joke of friendship (which I dont think he understood). This is why you shouldnt interject into my conversation with someone else. I wasnt talking to you, was I? If I wanted to talk to you, I would have quoted you. Dont stick your nose into my conversation.

proof. most of the ME is anti-zionist, not anti-semetic including such groups as hezbullah and hamas.

Im sure that makes them bunch of nice guys then, huh? The west has freedom of press. They can publish whatever they want about muhammad. If the middle east wants to kick and scream about it like a bunch of children, they make themselves look all the worse. And they can thank THEMSELVES.

a disorder, as in short sightedness, autisim, diabetes etc... evolutionary, it is not a plus, and can hinder the number of a certain species, that is why you dont see totally gay species, and that is why i called it a disorder. i understand that it seemed a little nazi the way i put it but i dont say kill them because they are blind ,diabetic gay etc...

I would look up the word 'disorder' in a dictionary. Actually, what you did say was that you can 'punish homosexual acts.' Now, I dont know if you mean one can, or one should. I'll let you clear that up though.

i lived in the uk for over 12 years, i think i know what i am talking about. i saw the moral degredation that was happening and that was admitted by many other people. and they arent helping the situation by not allowing the moderates in.

That must make you an expert on moral authority. Are you implying that radical imams are now 'moderates'? This phase is comical. So, what are people doing in the UK these days, running around raping and killing eachother? What a general, nonsense statement.

and it seems like i am arguing against intolerant radical westerners... sheesh.

If you think this is 'radical' westerners, then your in for a rude awakening. This is NORMAL western thinking. Get used to it.

May13-08, 05:14 PM

I see it as acceptance of a biological fact.
This has been the usual argument during all times when it comes to holding back women in the society. Although it is true that originally the biological differences led to a division of tasks between men and women, I do not think that it is a good argument to apply today. I do think women do want a career as much as men do, but that traditions and expectations keep them back (as well as let society hold them back). What I mean is that we now live in a civilized world where there is hardly anything to gain from giving men and women certain roles in society. Note my emphasis on that the western world repression of women do not lie much in the laws themselves, but that it has a traditional origin.

But I think you should keep things in perspective. There are far more serious issues of oppression and inequality confronting women than work and pay conditions in Europe.
I agree, and I have never said there are not more important issues to deal with. All I am saying is that repression of women in the western world is still a problem. The case of repression of women explicitely stated in the law is of course much worse. This does not mean one cannot fight both problems at the same time though. (Probably a progress in one place will also help the other.)

Cyrus

May13-08, 05:18 PM

I agree, and I have never said there are not more important issues to deal with. All I am saying is that repression of women in the western world is still a problem. The case of repression of women explicitely stated in the law is of course much worse. This does not mean one cannot fight both problems at the same time though. (Probably a progress in one place will also help the other.)

Im curious what this 'repression' of women in the western world is. I live in the USA, I dont see 'repressed' women anywhere. I cant think of any things done to women in the west that would begin to compare to the ME.

May13-08, 05:48 PM

I cant think of any things done to women in the west that would begin to compare to the ME.
E.g. sallaries. (See above posts.)
I'm not comparing to the ME.

Cyrus

May13-08, 06:00 PM

E.g. sallaries. (See above posts.)
I'm not comparing to the ME.

I would hardly consider that 'repression'. Thats too strong a word. I would call it a social inequality.

A repression would be a woman cant work because shes a woman. Its a bit of a stronger condition.

May13-08, 06:53 PM

I would hardly consider that 'repression'. Thats too strong a word. I would call it a social inequality.

A repression would be a woman cant work because shes a woman. Its a bit of a stronger condition.

Ok, I'm not a native speaker so I do not really know where the limit should be drawn. Fact is though that women get lower sallaries just because they are women. Anyway, I think this kind of discussion is getting a bit too off topic. I'll be happy to continue discussing "gender inequality" in western countries, but maybe it should be moved to another thread.

Cyrus

May13-08, 07:01 PM

Ok, I'm not a native speaker so I do not really know where the limit should be drawn. Fact is though that women get lower sallaries just because they are women. Anyway, I think this kind of discussion is getting a bit too off topic. I'll be happy to continue discussing "gender inequality" in western countries, but maybe it should be moved to another thread.

Depends on the person. To me, repression really means something quite severe. I wonder how one would determine such a statistic though. Two people (both male or female) could work at the same place and start with totally different pay scales. So, how can one say a woman earns less. Then you have to look at averages. Now, are those averages from the same places of work? It seems like you can really play with the stats to get any result you would like to. -Just something to consider.

There are lots of women that run big companies, so im not sure if I buy the women get less pay argument. I'd have to see more data on it though.