View Full Version : gyroscopes and gravity probe b
alistair
Apr28-04, 02:27 PM
<jabberwocky><div class="vbmenu_control"><a href="jabberwocky:;" onClick="newWindow=window.open('','usenetCode','toolbar=no, location=no,scrollbars=yes,resizable=yes,status=no ,width=650,height=400'); newWindow.document.write('<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Usenet ASCII</TITLE></HEAD><BODY topmargin=0 leftmargin=0 BGCOLOR=#F1F1F1><table border=0 width=625><td bgcolor=midnightblue><font color=#F1F1F1>This Usenet message\'s original ASCII form: </font></td></tr><tr><td width=449><br><br><font face=courier><UL><PRE>Researchers at Tohoku university in Japan found that a spinning\ngyroscope fell\nin the Earth\'s gravitational field slower than a non-spinning\ngyroscope.\nThe difference was 1 part in 100, 000.Will the spin of the Earth\neffect the\ngeodetic precession angle that gravity probe b is going to measure in\na similar manner? And could the spinning effect measured at Tohoku\nuniversity be due to relativistic mass increase as a result of the\nspeed of rotation of the gyroscope?\n\n</UL></PRE></font></td></tr></table></BODY><HTML>');"> <IMG SRC=/images/buttons/ip.gif BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER ALT="View this Usenet post in original ASCII form"> View this Usenet post in original ASCII form </a></div><P></jabberwocky>Researchers at Tohoku university in Japan found that a spinning
gyroscope fell
in the Earth's gravitational field slower than a non-spinning
gyroscope.
The difference was 1 part in 100, 000.Will the spin of the Earth
effect the
geodetic precession angle that gravity probe b is going to measure in
a similar manner? And could the spinning effect measured at Tohoku
university be due to relativistic mass increase as a result of the
speed of rotation of the gyroscope?
Uncle Al
Apr30-04, 10:30 AM
<jabberwocky><div class="vbmenu_control"><a href="jabberwocky:;" onClick="newWindow=window.open('','usenetCode','toolbar=no, location=no,scrollbars=yes,resizable=yes,status=no ,width=650,height=400'); newWindow.document.write('<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Usenet ASCII</TITLE></HEAD><BODY topmargin=0 leftmargin=0 BGCOLOR=#F1F1F1><table border=0 width=625><td bgcolor=midnightblue><font color=#F1F1F1>This Usenet message\'s original ASCII form: </font></td></tr><tr><td width=449><br><br><font face=courier><UL><PRE>alistair wrote:\n>\n> Researchers at Tohoku university in Japan found that a spinning\n> gyroscope fell\n> in the Earth\'s gravitational field slower than a non-spinning\n> gyroscope.\n> The difference was 1 part in 100, 000.Will the spin of the Earth\n> effect the\n> geodetic precession angle that gravity probe b is going to measure in\n> a similar manner? And could the spinning effect measured at Tohoku\n> university be due to relativistic mass increase as a result of the\n> speed of rotation of the gyroscope?\n\nHideo Hayasaka and Sakae Takeuchi\n5x10^(-5) difference/average EP anomaly claimed\nPhys. Rev. Lett. 63 2701 (1989),\ncf: Nature 346 705 (1990)\nThe work has been overwhelmingly discredited.\n\nOne part in 10^5 is insanely impossibly large. Equivalence Principle\nviolations, if they exist at all for any reason, will be no larger\nthan ~1 in 10^12 difference/average. At more than ~10 in 10^(-12) you\nhave major thermodynamic inconsistencies. The difference in\ngravitational vs. inertial mass is still subject to E=mc^2. Where\ndoes all the energy-equivalent come from and go to?\n\nSpinning bodies empirically obey the Equivalence Principle to at least\n1.6x10^(-7) difference/average.\n\nNew upper limit from terrestrial equivalence principle test for\nextended rotating bodies\nPhys. Rev D 66 022002 (2002)\nNull result for violation of the equivalence principle with free-fall\nrotating gyroscopes\nPhys. Rev. D 65 042005 (2002)\nhttp://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/0111069\nMod. Phys. Lett. A 16 789 (2001)\nhttp://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/0006075\nIf spinning bodies did violate the Equivalence Principle to 10^(-5)\nrelative, then the four 10,000 rpm gyroscopes in Gravity Probe B would\nbe SCREAMING output within 90 minutes of spin-up. The cited papers\nuse ~420-gram steel gyros (~5.5 cm diameter) spinning at 17,000 (+/-)\n200 rpm.\n\nA parity Eotvos experiment has no prior observational constraints\nparticle accelerators to cosmology. It could display a 3x10^(-12)\ndifference/average EP violation nice as you please. A ~10x10^(-12)\nviolation has the same thermodynamic constraints as any other EP\nviolation.\n\n--\nUncle Al\nhttp://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/qz.pdf\nhttp://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/eotvos.htm\n(Do something naughty to physics)\n\n</UL></PRE></font></td></tr></table></BODY><HTML>');"> <IMG SRC=/images/buttons/ip.gif BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER ALT="View this Usenet post in original ASCII form"> View this Usenet post in original ASCII form </a></div><P></jabberwocky>alistair wrote:
>
> Researchers at Tohoku university in Japan found that a spinning
> gyroscope fell
> in the Earth's gravitational field slower than a non-spinning
> gyroscope.
> The difference was 1 part in 100, 000.Will the spin of the Earth
> effect the
> geodetic precession angle that gravity probe b is going to measure in
> a similar manner? And could the spinning effect measured at Tohoku
> university be due to relativistic mass increase as a result of the
> speed of rotation of the gyroscope?
Hideo Hayasaka and Sakae Takeuchi
5x10^(-5) difference/average EP anomaly claimed
Phys. Rev. Lett. 63 2701 (1989),
cf: Nature 346 705 (1990)
The work has been overwhelmingly discredited.
One part in 10^5 is insanely impossibly large. Equivalence Principle
violations, if they exist at all for any reason, will be no larger
than ~1 in 10^12 difference/average. At more than ~10 in 10^(-12) you
have major thermodynamic inconsistencies. The difference in
gravitational vs. inertial mass is still subject to E=mc^2. Where
does all the energy-equivalent come from and go to?
Spinning bodies empirically obey the Equivalence Principle to at least
1.6x10^(-7) difference/average.
New upper limit from terrestrial equivalence principle test for
extended rotating bodies
Phys. Rev D 66 022002 (2002)
Null result for violation of the equivalence principle with free-fall
rotating gyroscopes
Phys. Rev. D 65 042005 (2002)
http://arxiv.org/abs/http://www.arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/0111069
Mod. Phys. Lett. A 16 789 (2001)
http://arxiv.org/abs/http://www.arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/0006075
If spinning bodies did violate the Equivalence Principle to 10^(-5)
relative, then the four 10,000 rpm gyroscopes in Gravity Probe B would
be SCREAMING output within 90 minutes of spin-up. The cited papers
use ~420-gram steel gyros (~5.5 cm diameter) spinning at 17,000 (+/-)
200 rpm.
A parity Eotvos experiment has no prior observational constraints
particle accelerators to cosmology. It could display a 3x10^(-12)
difference/average EP violation nice as you please. A ~10x10^(-12)
violation has the same thermodynamic constraints as any other EP
violation.
--
Uncle Al
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/qz.pdf
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/eotvos.htm
(Do something naughty to physics)
J. J. Lodder
May2-04, 04:51 PM
<jabberwocky><div class="vbmenu_control"><a href="jabberwocky:;" onClick="newWindow=window.open('','usenetCode','toolbar=no, location=no,scrollbars=yes,resizable=yes,status=no ,width=650,height=400'); newWindow.document.write('<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Usenet ASCII</TITLE></HEAD><BODY topmargin=0 leftmargin=0 BGCOLOR=#F1F1F1><table border=0 width=625><td bgcolor=midnightblue><font color=#F1F1F1>This Usenet message\'s original ASCII form: </font></td></tr><tr><td width=449><br><br><font face=courier><UL><PRE>alistair <alistair@goforit64.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:\n\n> Researchers at Tohoku university in Japan found that a spinning\n> gyroscope fell\n> in the Earth\'s gravitational field slower than a non-spinning\n> gyroscope.\n\nYou shouldn\'t believe anything said to have been \'found\' by\n\'researchers\'.\n\n> The difference was 1 part in 100, 000.Will the spin of the Earth\n> effect the\n> geodetic precession angle that gravity probe b is going to measure in\n> a similar manner?\n\nNo.\n\n> And could the spinning effect measured at Tohoku\n> university be due to relativistic mass increase as a result of the\n> speed of rotation of the gyroscope?\n\nThe effect was explained soon after its discovery as an artefact,\ncaused by rectification of vibrations in the gyroscope bearings\nby non-linearities of the balance used.\n\nThis also explaines the at first sight puzzling dependence\nof the magnitude of the effect on the sense of rotation:\nbearings are more noisy when spun opposite the normal sense.\n\nYou can make your own anti-gravity device this way too:\nstand on the bathroom scales, and shake something vigorously,\nor carry some shaking device.\n\nYou may well lose some pounds,\n\nJan\n\n</UL></PRE></font></td></tr></table></BODY><HTML>');"> <IMG SRC=/images/buttons/ip.gif BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER ALT="View this Usenet post in original ASCII form"> View this Usenet post in original ASCII form </a></div><P></jabberwocky>alistair <alistair@goforit64.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
> Researchers at Tohoku university in Japan found that a spinning
> gyroscope fell
> in the Earth's gravitational field slower than a non-spinning
> gyroscope.
You shouldn't believe anything said to have been 'found' by
'researchers'.
> The difference was 1 part in 100, 000.Will the spin of the Earth
> effect the
> geodetic precession angle that gravity probe b is going to measure in
> a similar manner?
No.
> And could the spinning effect measured at Tohoku
> university be due to relativistic mass increase as a result of the
> speed of rotation of the gyroscope?
The effect was explained soon after its discovery as an artefact,
caused by rectification of vibrations in the gyroscope bearings
by non-linearities of the balance used.
This also explaines the at first sight puzzling dependence
of the magnitude of the effect on the sense of rotation:
bearings are more noisy when spun opposite the normal sense.
You can make your own anti-gravity device this way too:
stand on the bathroom scales, and shake something vigorously,
or carry some shaking device.
You may well lose some pounds,
Jan
alistair
May3-04, 04:52 AM
<jabberwocky><div class="vbmenu_control"><a href="jabberwocky:;" onClick="newWindow=window.open('','usenetCode','toolbar=no, location=no,scrollbars=yes,resizable=yes,status=no ,width=650,height=400'); newWindow.document.write('<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Usenet ASCII</TITLE></HEAD><BODY topmargin=0 leftmargin=0 BGCOLOR=#F1F1F1><table border=0 width=625><td bgcolor=midnightblue><font color=#F1F1F1>This Usenet message\'s original ASCII form: </font></td></tr><tr><td width=449><br><br><font face=courier><UL><PRE>\n\nIt is interesting to note that the atoms in a spinning gyroscope are\nslightly further apart than when it is at rest.In George Luis le\nSage\'s theory of pushing gravity this would affect the interaction of\nthe particles that push against a the gyroscope.The Tohoku researchers\ndon\'t think they have an experimental error - maybe they\'re right!But\nthe fact that the gyroscopes only gave the anomalous behaviour when\nspinning one way is what many critics have said makes them disbelieve\nthe validity of the experimental results.\n</UL></PRE></font></td></tr></table></BODY><HTML>');"> <IMG SRC=/images/buttons/ip.gif BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER ALT="View this Usenet post in original ASCII form"> View this Usenet post in original ASCII form </a></div><P></jabberwocky>It is interesting to note that the atoms in a spinning gyroscope are
slightly further apart than when it is at rest.In George Luis le
Sage's theory of pushing gravity this would affect the interaction of
the particles that push against a the gyroscope.The Tohoku researchers
don't think they have an experimental error - maybe they're right!But
the fact that the gyroscopes only gave the anomalous behaviour when
spinning one way is what many critics have said makes them disbelieve
the validity of the experimental results.
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