Can Dreams Predict Future?

[quddusaliquddus]

:cool: Did anyone have a dream come true - So true that it's just plain weird? ... maybe even beyond explanation? :smile:

[holly]

I have had several "semi-waking dreams," or what most people would call "visions," come true. These visions were very specific, very eerie. It's a very unpleasant feeling to have them. In the most recent one, I "saw" my ex the physicist get hurt at the beach, with his neck very hurt. I did not see what caused it, just the location. It upset me enough to phone him and warn him, because whenever I have these, they come true. He knew I had these visions, but he just blew it off. Later on that week, he was in the hospital, with a broken neck, from getting hit from behind with a rogue wave while scuba diving. He no longer ignores my visions, but it makes him mad that I have them.

P.S. His neck is better but he can never pilot a plane again and has to be very careful with his neck.

I have an explanation for these visions, one that I'll borrow from Corrie Ten Boom, the WWII Dutch underground worker: These visions show us that Jesus is aware, and that all is in His hands. This is not an offer to defend or debate my explanation, just my opinion.

[quddusaliquddus]

Lol. Don't mind me laughing ... Very strange

[THANOS]

I dreamt i was a turtle trying to get an egg. But there was a kid who stopped me from getting that egg. So i swam at the oppistie side of the beach and tricked the kid into following me and them swam to the egg quickly and grabbed it and swam away.

Later that day i needed to take my time even when i felt i hadn't got much time. Then made myself a few extra bucks for taking that time and a weekend job to make more money. heh.

[quddusaliquddus]

Don't quiet get it ... what can i say? I'm slow

[expscv]

umm i dont know, i think dream is more like reflect wat u r wat u feel during the day and combine with ur imagination forms a movie clip in ur head. hoho

[ShawnD]

I've thought of science concepts and simple computer programs in my dreams. The programs actually worked when I wrote them in real life. How crazy :biggrin:

[Imparcticle]

Don't quiet get it ... what can i say? I'm slow

Slow and steady win the race. :biggrin: :smile:

Anywho,this is how I understood the special theory of relativity:
I had a dream about an object in 3D space flying, approaching c, and when it did, I recalled what I had read about what may occur at this speed. Then, as it approached c, it expanded, turned blue, and then it passed c. It disappeared into thin air (which had sparkles in it, to represent energy). And then, it occured to me....E=mc^2!! ahaha!! And I woke up, and smiled.

Fabulous dream, eh?

[quddusaliquddus]

............ Yeah :D ..............

[quddusaliquddus]

I've thought of science concepts and simple computer programs in my dreams. The programs actually worked when I wrote them in real life. How crazy :biggrin:

That's like ... wow ...

[expscv]

Slow and steady win the race. :biggrin: :smile:

Anywho,this is how I understood the special theory of relativity:
I had a dream about an object in 3D space flying, approaching c, and when it did, I recalled what I had read about what may occur at this speed. Then, as it approached c, it expanded, turned blue, and then it passed c. It disappeared into thin air (which had sparkles in it, to represent energy). And then, it occured to me....E=mc^2!! ahaha!! And I woke up, and smiled.

Fabulous dream, eh?


wow Fabulous good way of learning


but i did heard the scientist are trying do something with our dream, a tutoring program? i m not sure.

[Imparcticle]

I was 11 when this happened too. How cool is that!

[expscv]

wow inheritance from ur parents?

hey u should concentrate on the physics field, maybe u will achieve something incrediable

good luck =)

[quddusaliquddus]

Do you guys reckon animals have dreams then? Or is it something to do with our extra intellectual awareness (or whataver you call the distiguishing quality between man and animal) that makes us dream?

Maybe theres been studies done on animals dreaming?

[ShawnD]

Sure animals can dream. Have you ever watched a dog sleep? They sort of act weird.....

[quddusaliquddus]

Lol ... really? ... I have never watched a dog sleep - gotta try that sometime.

I wonder if they know it's only a dream or do they take it on as another 'day' in their life ... i guess we'll neva know

[expscv]

haha a brain reader?

[quddusaliquddus]

Happy BIrthday expscv ... if you're still here. How old r now then? l... lol (f you don't mnd the question)

[Imparcticle]

Sure animals can dream. Have you ever watched a dog sleep? They sort of act weird.....

ah, then you have a lot of spare time. If I could get over my fear of dogs, then I would do the same when I am bored (which is rare).

[expscv]

Happy BIrthday expscv ... if you're still here. How old r now then? l... lol (f you don't mnd the question)


lol i m 18 but my birth day is on january

the one in my profile is a joke hehe :biggrin:

[Overdose]

Ive been meditating for a fair few years, and one night when i went to bed i decided to go into a state of lucid dreaming, which id been experimenting with around that time. About 10 minutes in i was dreaming away while consciously monitoring what i was seeing. At one point i saw the face of jesus, not just any old jesus but a kind of cartoon representation with an odd square beard. I thought the image was pretty absurd and wondered why this image had come into my head esspecially seeing as im not religious in anyway.
After that i went to the bathroom and then properly fell asleep, when i woke up the next morning and turned on my tv (which is my useall routine) there was the same face of jesus i had seen the night before staring out at me, strange square beard and all. I turned up the volume on the tv and from what i could gather the program was about depictions of jesus in art throughout the ages.
Normally id have thought, coincidence, but the fact that it was the exact representation of jesus i saw the night before leads me to believe that i saw part of the future. I had another premontion after this, although i cant say these freaked me out, if anything they just confirmed what ive thought for a long time. Which is that time can be percieved as being non-sequential.

[expscv]

yeah it's very odd , and wierd, it seems to be illisusion and never showed a clear picture, in a dream u only get an outlines of it, once u wake up and see something simmilar u brain will matches the picture in ur dream (that is just an outline)

and thinks u see that already. and auto fill the outline, makes people even beilieve wat they saw in the dream was extraclt the same.

[quddusaliquddus]

That was my theory for years ans years. I thought the brain back-tracked and made up the Whole dream to account for something happening @ that moment. But - dreams have now and again come Completely true. I no longer believe in that theory because I have woken up and told people about the dream - and it came true only afterwards. The double-checked the poeple - it wasn't made up.

Overdose: Can you really conciously induce a lucid dream? Do you do sum kind of special meditation to make it work?

[expscv]

wow then there is something to concern of.

hows it work?

although it's hard to beileve something havent been proved

= fancy

but it does happen to me, some of the times. where i could see something like 5 sec of action, and maybe 2 days later, that 5 sec of action was become real. but could it be a illusion and a coincidence ?

[quddusaliquddus]

I made this thread to get other people's opinions. I have NO idea how it works or if it is true even...I'm not 100% about it - so I don't expect any1 else to be :D

In my mind, it could be an illusion or a coincidence. But because some people say things have happened 100% like dream and I have experience like 75% coming true (of a single dream) then I wonder if theres something I'm missing here.

[Overdose]

That was my theory for years ans years. I thought the brain back-tracked and made up the Whole dream to account for something happening @ that moment. But - dreams have now and again come Completely true. I no longer believe in that theory because I have woken up and told people about the dream - and it came true only afterwards. The double-checked the poeple - it wasn't made up.

Overdose: Can you really conciously induce a lucid dream? Do you do sum kind of special meditation to make it work?

yep im of the same opinon qudd, sometimes you can backtrack and fill in the blanks, but that cant explain every case.

In my case i wasnt dreaming as you'd normally describe it, i was also conscious at the same time, so i was effectively able to take note of what i saw as it happened. Which is quite different from remembering what happened at a latter time. Also its worth pointing out that the state i was is probably made me more adpet at remembering slightly more than you would in your normal waking state of mind. i.e. using lucid dreaming you can mentally go back through your day and remember instances and details you'd forgotton pervious.
With that im mind im pretty confident that i didnt 'fill in any blanks' to accomadate what i saw.

As for how i lucid dream, im mostly self taught, one of my techniques is to mentally split myself in two and watch my other sleeping half. Very hard to explain as i already feel ridiculus trying to get across how its done :tongue:

[Fliption]

Well I have described something that happened to me twice already in this forum. So I'll link you to it. This is not an instance of predicting the future. But it's relevant to the discussion here.

http://physicsforums.com/showthread.php?p=100553#post100553

[yolandablongs2lu]

Hello everybody I was hoping someone can tell me if a preson can dream of the way they die?
My father in law who was only 51 healthy strong man Had passed away in january 28, 2003 in a car accident in Mexico, He went for a vacation, and 3 days before he was supposed to come back he died instantly in a car accident. 2 months before he died he said he had a dream that he was driving a truck and got into a car accident and died in his dream. After he died the way he told us in his dream, 2 months later made us always wonder if a person can dream of Ourself of how are we going to die.
Just wondering please anybody knows, or heard of please respond.

[Rader]

Hello everybody I was hoping someone can tell me if a preson can dream of the way they die?
My father in law who was only 51 healthy strong man Had passed away in january 28, 2003 in a car accident in Mexico, He went for a vacation, and 3 days before he was supposed to come back he died instantly in a car accident. 2 months before he died he said he had a dream that he was driving a truck and got into a car accident and died in his dream. After he died the way he told us in his dream, 2 months later made us always wonder if a person can dream of Ourself of how are we going to die.
Just wondering please anybody knows, or heard of please respond.


I think what your asking is can one know the future in the present. If the fundamental nature (whatever that is) of our reality, is interconnected, and for half a century, it has not been disproved, then this type of phenomenom and many others like it, could be explained. Not the explanation of, if it happens, but the when and why it happens and to whom it happens. My answer is, yes it is possible.

[yolandablongs2lu]

I do not mean by everything that happen's in the future... I mean only the way you will die?..... I just find it wierd how he told us how he had the dream... he said that he did know that on his dream the truck that he was driving was not his. At least he said he did not recongnize the truck he was driving.... And when he died in the car accident it was his own truck.... But the events in his dream of the way he died in the car accident was exactly the way he died in his dream.....
My question was can A person dream about the way you will die???... and if so how can this happen???

[Rader]

I do not mean by everything that happen's in the future... I mean only the way you will die?..... I just find it wierd how he told us how he had the dream... he said that he did know that on his dream the truck that he was driving was not his. At least he said he did not recongnize the truck he was driving.... And when he died in the car accident it was his own truck.... But the events in his dream of the way he died in the car accident was exactly the way he died in his dream.....
My question was can A person dream about the way you will die???... and if so how can this happen???

I did not say everything, you took my answer to mean that. I meant only specific events. This is not an individual case event, this has happened to other people. No one can give you a nuts and bolts answer to your question. I made an assumption to where there might be a probable cause. Space-time was once a singularity, therefore interconnectivety of all matter is a logical assumption, why these events might occur. Why this does not happen to everyone is the greater mystery. Many people dream a diverse amount of things, that do happen, besides death.

[quddusaliquddus]

Thei interesting thing is that most people who are believe (or inclined-to) that dreams can predict future don't say that as an assumption - then confirm it through 'experience'. most people just experience it - the predictive powers of dreams. So it's not like superstitious people who like to believe in these things. It comes from personal expereince of people who have no interest in such things!!!

[Overdose]

I believe dreams and premonitions have developed via evolution as a means of survival......

[quddusaliquddus]

I believe dreams and premonitions have developed via evolution as a means of survival......

y doesn't it happen 2 every1? y isnt it inherited?

[Overdose]

y doesn't it happen 2 every1? y isnt it inherited?
well i think its probably a newly evolved trait, and as such people probably have this ability to different degrees and in some cases its probably barely preasent. Youve also got to take into account that some people just ignore premonitions/dont tell anyone about them.

[quddusaliquddus]

no offence - it sounds liek something out of X-Men

[Overdose]

no offence - it sounds liek something out of X-Men
none taken :rofl:

[quddusaliquddus]

What does it mean, if dreams can tell the future? I just realised that it could have big implications on our abilities while awake - does this mean we can influence the future? What's the point if any, of seein the future? How does it helps us evolution or otherwise? How in the world does such a thing develop in our heads via evolution? Why humans ? - there are other animals with larger brains for example. Hundreds more question. ...

[loseyourname]

Are you honestly asking if you can influence the future? Every single action you ever take influences the future.

[quddusaliquddus]

Lol ... you missed the point ... there's a difference between influencing it from foreknowledge of events and your everyday actions. It's like saying that if you knew the formulae for a falling object then you could influence it ... now we influence falling objects everyday e.g. footballs, but if you have forrmulae i.e. insight into its future course - then you can adjust its height weight etc ... to change the nature of its fall to the ground.
Using that as an analogy - can this be done with dreams?

[theamazingTWOeyedman]

We don't know enough about dreams or the mind in general to determine if they can "predict the future". Though my guess is no since most dreams are just about things you've been thinking about recently... I find I only remember dreams during the school year, when I wake up during a dream (because of my alarm). If I'm allowed to come out of REM naturally I do not remember them. I think the best explanation of dreams would be that you're kinda "defragging" to put it in computer terms... That would explain why if you think about something a lot that's the dream you'll remember, because it takes longer to store away. But as of now all we have are theories, nothing rock solid.

This howstuffworks article has some good stuff in it about dreams:

http://science.howstuffworks.com/sleep.htm

[russ_watters]

... there's a difference between influencing it from foreknowledge of events and your everyday actions. It's like saying that if you knew the formulae for a falling object then you could influence it ... now we influence falling objects everyday e.g. footballs, but if you have forrmulae i.e. insight into its future course - then you can adjust its height weight etc ... to change the nature of its fall to the ground.
Using that as an analogy - can this be done with dreams? I already covered this, but a lot of you are operating on the belief that some dreams are, in fact, a snapshot of the future. They aren't. The belief that they are is simply the human propensity for pattern recognition latching on to a dream about a common event, followed by an experience of a similar event.

Sorry guys, but its just a coincidence.

[quddusaliquddus]

Have you ever experienced such coincedences? Do tell us about your experiences

[loseyourname]

This isn't a personal experience forum. Anecdotal evidence is hardly worth anything.

[quddusaliquddus]

When it comes to dreams - it's worth more than nothing.

[loseyourname]

Thank you for bringing it to my attention that hardly anything is more than nothing.

[BoulderHead]

:cool: Did anyone have a dream come true - So true that it's just plain weird? ... maybe even beyond explanation? :smile:
I've had a lot of dreams, few I can recall now, but I'm fairly certain none of them came true. Something more the opposite has happened though; events have occurred which seemed to me dreamlike. :wink:

[Overdose]

I already covered this, but a lot of you are operating on the belief that some dreams are, in fact, a snapshot of the future. They aren't. The belief that they are is simply the human propensity for pattern recognition latching on to a dream about a common event, followed by an experience of a similar event.

Sorry guys, but its just a coincidence.

Your right in a sense, i could dream of the two towers being struck by 2 areoplanes a week before 9/11 and given all the dreams going on and all the people in the world. Yes it could just be an astronomical coinicidence, and thats the problem with this kind of thing there never comes a point where 'it definately isnt a coindence'. Wether or not you interpret this kind of thing as future predictions or random coindicences really depends on your biases of what the human mind is capable of and what is possible.
I think dreams can predict the future.... :biggrin:

[Overdose]

This isn't a personal experience forum. Anecdotal evidence is hardly worth anything.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[quddusaliquddus]

russ: To deny something outright without any evidence (or to believe in something) even though there's a chance it might be true isn't right. Can u not hold out the possiblity?

[loseyourname]

I think Russ would like for you to propose some mechanism by which the unconscious human mind would be theoretically capable of predicting the future. You run into an awful dilemma here in that the future hasn't happened yet. How can one have knowledge of that which does not exist?

My guess would be that the human mind is capable of threading together past and present events in such way that it can construct a very highly probable model of what the future will bring, but if the model turns out to be correct, it was nothing more than a lucky guess. A very highly educated and impressive guess, but lucky nonetheless.

One example I can think of is that I once dreamed of the exact circumstances and manner in which a girlfriend broke up with me, three months before it happened. I don't think of myself as clairvoyant. It is likely that I had simply seen signs pointing the way without actually realizing what I was seeing, and it took the dream to bring it to my attention.

[quddusaliquddus]

Yes. Then the prediction is a prediction. Was it possible for you to have considered the possibility consciously that this might happen at that time - jus before ouy had the dream? If not then I'd put it into the category of prediction. I understand that as a science forum - mechanisms and controlled tests are everything. But there is at the moment no plausible theory on this other than your model-genrator theory or the time-travelling theory (on this forum anyway). I just wanna see if people actually believe its more than a coincedence no matter what mechanisms they explain it with - again this may not interest sum people.

[quddusaliquddus]

Thank you for bringing it to my attention that hardly anything is more than nothing.

You are welcome. :smile:

[loseyourname]

But there is at the moment no plausible theory on this other than your model-genrator theory or the time-travelling theory (on this forum anyway).

When you take into consideration the fact that time travel violates the laws of physics as they are currently known, one hypothesis (neither is quite a theory) is a tad more plausible than the other.

[russ_watters]

Loseyourname covered it pretty well, but...When it comes to dreams - it's worth more than nothing. Well that's just it - it is nothing. russ: To deny something outright without any evidence (or to believe in something) even though there's a chance it might be true isn't right. Can u not hold out the possiblity? To believe it without evidence is worse. Sorry, I use the scientific method. That ain't it.

In that abstract, anything is possible. But I'd bet my birthday on a lottery ticket before betting on a number I saw in a dream (and I don't do lotteries). Things I know, on the other hand, come from science. To even consider the possibility (without scientific evidence) that dreams are predictions is foolish - more foolish than betting on the lottery.

[TENYEARS]

Russ, foolishness is a constant. It is the human condition. Science is not a thing, it is a bandwagon of human beings. Yes men/women with a degree to shake and nod ones head. So, you would place the knowlege of others, things outside yourself, unknowns and make that truth? It reminds me of the move "The Deer Hunter" as he yells for more bullets. If a human wants the truth, they will find it, they will realize it.

What you have no clue of haunts me all the time. I have seen the future of humanity. You will not need shades. My visions come to pass and I know the ones that will. I call them out before hand boldly when I know, and I keep my mouth shut when I don't.

The continual unconcious acts of young and old without the responsbility for what we must do. Ah, another movie. "Thing", end of the movie "lets just sit here and wait."

[hypnagogue]

Scientific evidence demands reproducibility. If we cannot reliably reproduce a phenomenon, does it automatically entail that it doesn't exist? Maybe we just don't know how to reproduce it. If we humans weren't as bright as we are, perhaps we would never figure out how to reproduce static shocks. But our failure to reproduce the phenomenon would be a shortcoming on our part, not good evidence against the phenomenon in question.

[confutatis]

Russ, foolishness is a constant. It is the human condition. Science is not a thing, it is a bandwagon of human beings ... If a human wants the truth, they will find it, they will realize it ... What you have no clue of haunts me all the time. I have seen the future of humanity...

A little off-the-topic but I want to share it. I checked the forum this morning and the main page said the last post on this thread was by Hypnagogue. Since I like to read Hypnagogue's writings I decided to check it out, but when I clicked on the thread I was taken to Tenyears' post instead. So I started to read his post thinking it was Hypnagogue's, and the thought that came to my mind was, "oh my, is Hypnagogue playing with LSD again?" :confused:

(this is a private joke :smile:, if you don't get it nevermind)

[TENYEARS]

Like I said before, confused us was never enlighted. Bad choice of name, it is not that he could not have been, it is just that during his life, from what he expressed, it indicated nada. Expression though is not a requirement, so I guess I am talking out my hat or maybe I am giving you food for thought. Do you have a stomach to digest it or are you not hungry, the question is self answering, but the posting can produce hunger.

[Overdose]

wtf..........

[quddusaliquddus]

Tenyears might be the one playing with LSD
;D
Tenyears: show us the path that goes to the peak of the mountain of enlightenment - that we may follow there and then kick you off ;D

Joke

[killerinstinct]

Dreams seem to be mysterious for a long time. In the ancient time, it is related to the message from God, however, modern research has proved that it is related to our unconscious mind.

[killerinstinct]

lollolololololololololol

[loseyourname]

Scientific evidence demands reproducibility. If we cannot reliably reproduce a phenomenon, does it automatically entail that it doesn't exist? Maybe we just don't know how to reproduce it. If we humans weren't as bright as we are, perhaps we would never figure out how to reproduce static shocks. But our failure to reproduce the phenomenon would be a shortcoming on our part, not good evidence against the phenomenon in question.

Science demand that you document carefully all of the steps you took to produce the phenomenon in the first place. If someone paid careful attention to how they produced a static shock, then another scientist conducting the same experiment, using exactly the same method, should attain exactly the same results. All that science is saying is that physical laws are the same in all spatial and temporal coordinates. Without reproducibility, you have no way of knowing whether or not the experimenter in question is simply lying.

[hypnagogue]

Without reproducibility, you have no way of knowing whether or not the experimenter in question is simply lying.

True, but this is hardly negative evidence. If anything, it is lack of evidence. More accurately, it is lack of a particularly rigorous kind of evidence. So while we can't confidently say that the phenomenon is 'for real,' we can't assert the converse with absolute confidence either.

[loseyourname]

I'm not sure what type of discovery you're thinking of here, but when it comes to that which science deals with, I'm going to have to stick with the crowd here in saying that reproducibility is a pretty decent indicator. Again, if all of the steps and variables in an experiment are described in detail, any person performing that experiment should get the same results. If no one is able to reproduce the claims of a given experimenter, then that is good evidence that the experimenter is either lying or unintentionally leaving something out (perhaps even something that he/she didn't realize effected the results). Can you think of a scientific experiment in which this would not be the case?

[hypnagogue]

Think of the strangest state of mind you've ever had. Can you readily reproduce it? If not, does that mean that you never really had it?

[loseyourname]

See, that is not within the realm of science. That's why I wanted you to provide an example, and I thank you for doing so. You don't know all of the factors that go into creating a certain state of mind. All that the scientific method states is that if you knew every single factor that goes into producing a given mindstate, then you should be able to reproduce that mindstate. Can you think of any reason to believe otherwise?

[hypnagogue]

I'm not challenging that idea. All I'm saying is that our failure to reproduce 'prophetic' dreams (or most psi phenomena in general) does not amount to evidence against such phenomena, just a lack of a certain kind of evidence for them.

[loseyourname]

That wasn't my argument against prognosticatory dreams anyway. My argument against it was that the future does not exist and we cannot possibly have knowledge of that which does not exist. At the very least, granting the possibility would require a huge overhaul of our understanding of the nature of time. I don't know how much you know about Bayesian probability analysis, but given our background knowledge and the available evidence, one hypothesis is almost infinitely more probable than the other. The equation is always open to new evidence, but until such evidence comes, it would be utter foolhardiness to conclude that clairvoyant prognostication is taking place, or even that the prospects are anywhere near equal for each hypothesis.

[hypnagogue]

The future does not exist according to whom? It appears as if it doesn't exist yet-- this is a view of time made from within time. Are we really in some priveleged position to judge what does and does not exist, or is our view relative to our particular viewpoint?

In any case, time isn't an absolute. Two events that appear to occur simultaneously to one observor can appear to occur sequentially to another. So for one observor, 'the future' is happening right now, and for the other it is yet to happen. If the latter says that it doesn't exist, he'll get a funny look from the former. More generally, if we refuse to grant priveleged status to any particular reference frame, then there is no absolute sense in which the future doesn't exist.

[TENYEARS]

I do not believe I can see the future I know I can, I have done it many times. Those who did not believe it is possible now believe it is. One women I told of a disaster before it happened and the exact day said she did not what to know anymore and not to tell her. The fact that anyone says something does not exist is a complete admission of their lack of logic and dishonesty. I witnessed my next door neighbor(the father of my friend) walk again after years of being confined to a wheel chair unable to walk with MS. The doctors also said it was utterly unexplainable after many years confined to a wheel chair. I would not accept that he was healed even though I knew his character and it was good. I had to understand how it was possible. Could I deny it NO. Chould I affirm it NO. I was left in nomans land. This is being true to myself. This is logic. Drop you arrogant foolishness before life pounds you into the dust. It will you know. Change your minds, change your ways. You would have accepted it when you saw not only the physical evidence, but one piece of evidence which was purely physical.

[Overdose]

I just think its one of those things that most people will think is bull**** unless they have a direct personal experience of it.
I dont really blame anyone for not 'believing', but at the same time i think its going a step too far to say that seeing into the future is impossible as it hasnt happened yet.
That seems a little simple minded to me; as hypnagogue pointed out time is relative.

[TENYEARS]

You find the college with balls enough to care about reality, and I will prove it is possible. Stage one will be to examine the past of what happened already. I can prove that with some degree of certainty with a series of tests. Stage two, I tell what the universe is created out of and how it works which is how this is possible. With this comes a few extras. Stage three?

It would be kind of like giving fire to kids wouldn't it. It's ok I suppose there is a safety gaurd for misuse. Problem is you will get masses of people attempting to take advantage of others, dozens of times more so than now. And many will be taken advantage of because they do not see the difference.

I will undergo something which no other would be willing to go through who has claimed to see the future. Some of you belong to colleges, many maybe. Find me the college. This is no joke. The second the world "believes", things will change somewhat. Sometimes belief creates a break through into that extra nudge which creates or unviels experience.

If you know the words of a truthful person, you will know mine.

[loseyourname]

The future does not exist according to whom? It appears as if it doesn't exist yet-- this is a view of time made from within time. Are we really in some priveleged position to judge what does and does not exist, or is our view relative to our particular viewpoint?

In any case, time isn't an absolute. Two events that appear to occur simultaneously to one observor can appear to occur sequentially to another. So for one observor, 'the future' is happening right now, and for the other it is yet to happen. If the latter says that it doesn't exist, he'll get a funny look from the former. More generally, if we refuse to grant priveleged status to any particular reference frame, then there is no absolute sense in which the future doesn't exist.

Our future doesn't yet exist within our own reference frame. Good enough?

[hypnagogue]

Our future doesn't yet exist within our own reference frame. Good enough?

It doesn't yet exist, but it exists in a greater context. That opens the logical possibility of premonition.

[mikesvenson]

ok all, i have something for you here. I have indeed seen the future through REPEATED dreams. Then seen the manifestation of it in my 'present'.

This past summer, I had a re-occurring dream: I catch thieves breaking into my van. While trying to stop them, I manage to save a bag of $1200 that was inside the van. They get away with everything else except the $1200. About 2 weeks later, my van gets broken in to. Hours before the break-in, I ?coincidentally? remove the bag of $1200 from the van for UNRELATED REASONS that I had up until that point, stored in the van (I was on a long road trip). At first, what seemed to have happened was I dreamed of what would happen in the future, and received some kind of warning through the dream about my money.

This raises a lot of interesting questions. What is free will? Is our path in life predetermined? Many people cling to the friendly idea that they have complete control over their future, and that their destiny is whatever they make it. For a while, I thought this to be so. But there are some complicated problems with this notion and the dreams I had about the break-in. If all future events are manifested as an effect of our own free willed choices, in other words, if we are really in control of our future, then why would I have dreamt of a future event at all? If free will is so, then the event of the break-in would have been only one of billions upon billions of possible outcomes of future events, which would in this case be controlled by my choices. In theory, something as simple as wearing a different color shirt weeks beforehand could have made a huge dent in the probability of the break-in. So the event of the break-in according to free will couldn’t have possibly been inevitable until the moment it starting happening. Therefore there would have been no reason for me to dream of it weeks before hand.

This reasoning about the notion of free will brings me to consider the possibility of a predetermined path to our existence. Where free will is nothing more than a comfortable illusion brought on by a defiance to reality. A reality in which all instances regarded as moments in time (all past instances, present and future instances) exist simultaneously within a space of eternity. Similar to a photo exposed multiple times of the sun passing where several moments in "time" are represented in one frame by the different positions of the sun in that frame. In this example, the frame represents a space of eternity, while the different positions of the sun represent different instances all of which exist simultaneously in the eternity frame. Look at one position of the sun in the frame. By observing the future positions of the suns instances within the frame you can predict its past positions, and vise versa, you can observe the suns past positions within the frame and determine its future positions. In this case, the future can be predicted by the past, as can the past be predicted by the future. The nature of cause and effect runs in ALL directions. No matter which direction time is perceived, the outcomes are reasonably predictable. So, considering this, does time, or whatever we consider to be time, even have a real direction? Or does it simply exist, with neither a begginning, an end, or a direction?

Memories can be described as a recording of causes to which the effect is the coinciding existance frame. After all, I wouldn’t be writing this sentence if I hadn’t written the sentences before it, and I can remember doing so. Regarding the dream in reference to what I wrote above, I can suppose that the dream was a temporary slip up in the singular awareness of the order of instances that simultaneously exist in an eternity frame. That my dream was a memory of an event that is still happening AND HAS ALWAYS HAPPENED in what is relatively now a past frame of existence in an eternity frame. This wasn’t a warning of any kind, but was a "memory" of an event yet to occur. In a sense, I traveled through time in my dream and caught a glimpse of what was to be an effect of a cause, and, the cause of an effect. Since time has no direction and all instances 'are' in an eternity frame, my dream was simply a relief from the illusion of times direction. A memory of the future.

Now, you may say that this is all nonsense and if what I said is true, then why didn’t I dream of exactly what happened, if
(according to me) what I saw in the dream was exactly what would happen in the future? This is because within the eternity, an infinite (eternity) amount of instances exist. and while I was dreaming, I was seeing the same type of event happen in different ways, in different life paths, or, dimensions, different instances. The imagination (subconscious) view this realm of eternity. An idea of the imagination is the subconscious observing different outcomes of instances. Like playing a game of pool, when you can ‘see’ the path at which you need to hit the ball, you are seeing existing moments in different instances in eternity.

Statistics and probability are only proven relative to a particular sequence of instances. The more instances within a sequence are observed, the less probabilities there will be. The longer a consciousness follows a path, the harder it is to get off that path., the longer one lives, the less choices he has.

infinity <---- 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 ? 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 ----> infinity

-In infinity, the probability of the missing number to be 9 is the same for it to be any other number, or simply to not ‘be’ at all.

In infinity all outcomes are equally possible. In a single life path, “statistics and probability are only proven relative to a particular sequence of instances”. In infinity, statistics is a measure of inversely proportional probabilities where all opposing outcomes are equally possible.

When I was 10 or so, I dreamt that my mother had died. In the dream, she was being taken away from my house in a casket that was made of glass. I ran up to her and looked down upon her before she was carried from the house. Looking up at me, she said, "don't worry, everythings going to be alright". When I was 21, she died in my house while I was flying back by plane from a short vactaion.
The dream was simply a preperation for what was to come in the future, so as not to be so much of a shock.
Now, if i had this dream after the fact, then i could rationalize it away as just my own mind trying to deal, but the fact that i saw i happen BEFORE it 'did happen', forces me to realize the significance of the dream.

[12345]

well i have had so many dreams about different places in moments of time, then a few days later i experience the same setting and moment in real life. and i know exactly what is happening next.

it must happen to many people. i think.

[russ_watters]

I'm not challenging that idea. All I'm saying is that our failure to reproduce 'prophetic' dreams (or most psi phenomena in general) does not amount to evidence against such phenomena, just a lack of a certain kind of evidence for them. That works for me.

[Overdose]

Like i siad earlier i find it interesting that people i speak to and have heard from mostly only seem to have premonitions when their life may be in danger. Its like an in built early warning system thats evolved over time.

[mikesvenson]

Like i siad earlier i find it interesting that people i speak to and have heard from mostly only seem to have premonitions when their life may be in danger. Its like an in built early warning system thats evolved over time.

yes, perhaps more generally when something relatively important will happen.
hmmm, ?will?, or ?could?, or ?probably will?.

seems like a question on free will verses predetermined future

[russ_watters]

This past summer, I had a re-occurring dream: I catch thieves breaking into my van. While trying to stop them, I manage to save a bag of $1200 that was inside the van. If I had $1200 in a van, I'd be real surprised if I didn't dream about it being stolen.

[mikesvenson]

If I had $1200 in a van, I'd be real surprised if I didn't dream about it being stolen.


good point, although i see the coincidences in this incident to profound to be dismissed by such an optimistically obviouse explanation. As you read, i dreamt about saving the money at the last minute as the van was being broken into. (in 2 seperate dreams). Ironically, the van was broken into, and the money was saved. Perhaps the dream was a reminder for my subconsiouse(which was seeing the future instances that were to arrive) to find a reason to take the money out of the van the day of the break-in. The money then was taken out of the van for completely unrelated reasons. I didnt see the break-in coming at the least bit, since i dismissed the dreams as nothing, untill that is, the dream actually came true.

[olde drunk]

i have not read this thread, so i apologize if this has been offered previously.

if, time only exists in our physical world and our dreams are timeless (without time). why wouldn't we be able to visit both the future and past??

i suspect that we 'educated' people have lost this aspect of our consciousness. so many 'ignorant' cultures still believe and work with their dreams rather well.

love&peace,
olde drunk

[loseyourname]

Whatcha talkin' about, drunk? Do you mean that since you can have a dream in which days pass in the dream, when in reality, it's only been a couple of hours, that when you dream, your consciousness is escaping time. Ignoring the fact that nothing in either science or experience can really tell us whether or not that is possible or what the consequences would be, I don't see how you would then be able to re-enter time at a later date, then come back out and re-enter at the original earlier date. That implies that all of time already exists, which would fly in the face of your other ideas regarding free will. Now I know you've postulated that there are infinite possible futures, and we simply choose which one we will move into when we take any action, but if this is the case, and your consciousness simply splipped into one of these futures while you were dreaming, your prognostication would only have a 1 in infinity chance of being correct.

By the way, hyp, the mentor in the Relativity forum says you're off your rocker for suggesting that the relativity of simultaneity allows for prognostication. Maybe if one of you is moving close to the speed of light, you can see a couple of seconds into someone's future. You wouldn't be able to communicate what you saw, but it's interesting anyway.

[olde drunk]

Whatcha talkin' about, drunk? Do you mean that since you can have a dream in which days pass in the dream, when in reality, it's only been a couple of hours, that when you dream, your consciousness is escaping time. Ignoring the fact that nothing in either science or experience can really tell us whether or not that is possible or what the consequences would be, I don't see how you would then be able to re-enter time at a later date, then come back out and re-enter at the original earlier date. That implies that all of time already exists, which would fly in the face of your other ideas regarding free will. Now I know you've postulated that there are infinite possible futures, and we simply choose which one we will move into when we take any action, but if this is the case, and your consciousness simply splipped into one of these futures while you were dreaming, your prognostication would only have a 1 in infinity chance of being correct.

By the way, hyp, the mentor in the Relativity forum says you're off your rocker for suggesting that the relativity of simultaneity allows for prognostication. Maybe if one of you is moving close to the speed of light, you can see a couple of seconds into someone's future. You wouldn't be able to communicate what you saw, but it's interesting anyway.
sigh, poor me. i did not know that 'time' existed for the entire universe, including my sub-conscious and spritual self. i am such a dummy!

i'll continue in my ignorance and believe that my sub-conscious exists in a non-linear enviorment that does not include time. i'll repeat what i said in another thread - (past, present, future)

if the past, present and future are interdependent and exist as probabilities the moment i experience is a function of the expectations and/or desires for that moment. all future probabilities are out there and valid. it is up to me to choose which probability i wish to actualize and experience.

now, i suspect that this is a harmonious agreement tween my conscious, un-concious and spiritual self. i am not suggesting that i can simply say that i will be able to jump six feet high tomorrow and have that desire realized.

within the process of becoming, we have chosen the circumstances for our life to best provide us with the experience that we wanted. these decisions were made by our counsciouness, not our conscious mind. we use our conscious mind to narrow the focus of our attention to gain understanding of our experience. we use linear experience to make understanding easier.

why can't my soul, or whatever I am, reach into my psyche and present a dream to help me understand and/or better deal with my experiences?? is a dream of a past event more legitimate than a dream of future? can that dream reach back and change a past event??

i am not a dream researcher or devote'. i was offering my opinion that i believe that we do dream in a timeless enviornment and, IMHO, we do visit future events. these dreams help motivate and encourage our efforts to make dreams come true.

love&peace,
olde drunk

[loseyourname]

Okay, you didn't address any of what I said. I'm not trying to be combative here, I just want to establish whether or not your system is consistent.

If what you're saying is that your unconscious self, or your soul or whatever it is, can see all of the past, present, and future at once, that is not denying the existence of time. Time must exist in order for there to be a past, present, and future. What you really seem to be saying is that your soul does not experience the passage of time. This, however, would deny the possibility of change, and hence any kind of growth, or really, any kind of experience at all. Experience requires the passage of time. It seems a little odd to speak of there being two "yous," one that exists in time and one that does not. How could a separate you that exists outside of time communicate with the you that exists in our familiar four dimenions? Any action requires a change in state, which requires time, which you have said your soul does not experience.

[olde drunk]

the aspect of me that is human requires time to process data. there is also an eternal aspect of myself that exists in a timeless universe; probably, non physical.

it would get messy if we tried to define our greater reality as it is beyond our total comprehension. can energy experience time? or does it experience different states? the chair i am sitting on is energy, condensed or coalesced energy.

we are one, with many aspects or lives. i view my greater self as a tree with each branch or even each leaf as an incarnation in this or any world. this greater self is an energy essence learning to master it's powers and abilities.

hey, look, no one has been able to explain to a scientific certainty what is really happening. i have pieced together this view because it works for me. fortunately, as i move along this line of thinking more and more of reality makes more sense to me. my dreams are limited and i do not spend much time sorting them or reaching for meaning.

i do however, like the idea that we are capable of so much more than we practice. look at what conventional medicine has done to OD's or is it DO's. they had a discipline that worked and it has been lost since they have been absorbed into the AMA definition of medicine. they did this to be accepted by government - business authorities.

my views promote a limitless creative enviornment for myself. (subject to the self-imposed limits for this human experience). now i will pay a little more attention to my dreams to see if i can add an anecdote to this thread.

love&peace,
olde drunk

[Ireth2690]

well I am pleased to hear that you can see the future. I can too. Please e-mail me (at Ireth2690@yahoo.com) If you can I would like to talk to you.

[Yggdrasil]

One dream about how my entire family will die came true. Have any of you heard of the 9/11 attacks?

[ChaosTheory]

I was searching for psychic/clairvoyant stuff, and here I am. Odd that I'm also a M.E. and possibly Physics major. :)

Anyway, here's a link that I just discovered, which may give believers and non-believers something to check out.

Zero Point Field (http://www.ode.nl/scripts/article.php?aID=3773)

Enjoy :)

[Imparcticle]

it would get messy if we tried to define our greater reality as it is beyond our total comprehension. can energy experience time? or does it experience different states? the chair i am sitting on is energy, condensed or coalesced energy.


Energy, and everything else in the universe is subject to time. In order to experience anything, there must be a certain time frame in which we experience it.


The day before my dad died, my mom had a dream that his time had come. He'd had a heart attack 2 weeks before, and was getting better (so the doctors said). Then one night, my mom dreamt that the doctors, dressed in pure white, where praying over him. As they did so, he was suddenly engulfed in light. Then he was gone, and my mom knew he was going to pass away.
Personally, I'm a skeptic of psuedoscience and stuff like that just because there is no credible evidence that I've ever heard of to support it. But that dream I just mentioned is one that compells me. I have my own theory, but it probably doesn't make sense....

[gravenewworld]

Do I believe dreams can fortell the future? You bet. I have had many cases where my dreams have come true to life. For example I will be in some place I have never been before in my entire life and when I walk around the corner I will already know what will be there because I already walked around the corner in a dream I had. Usually the "dejavu" I have happens every once in a while, not all the time, and they are of events of nothing significant like I have described.

[loseyourname]

I was searching for psychic/clairvoyant stuff, and here I am. Odd that I'm also a M.E. and possibly Physics major. :)

Anyway, here's a link that I just discovered, which may give believers and non-believers something to check out.

Zero Point Field (http://www.ode.nl/scripts/article.php?aID=3773)

Enjoy :)

Your link is dead.

[Philocrat]

the aspect of me that is human requires time to process data. there is also an eternal aspect of myself that exists in a timeless universe; probably, non physical.

it would get messy if we tried to define our greater reality as it is beyond our total comprehension. can energy experience time? or does it experience different states? the chair i am sitting on is energy, condensed or coalesced energy.

we are one, with many aspects or lives. i view my greater self as a tree with each branch or even each leaf as an incarnation in this or any world. this greater self is an energy essence learning to master it's powers and abilities.

hey, look, no one has been able to explain to a scientific certainty what is really happening. i have pieced together this view because it works for me. fortunately, as i move along this line of thinking more and more of reality makes more sense to me. my dreams are limited and i do not spend much time sorting them or reaching for meaning.

i do however, like the idea that we are capable of so much more than we practice. look at what conventional medicine has done to OD's or is it DO's. they had a discipline that worked and it has been lost since they have been absorbed into the AMA definition of medicine. they did this to be accepted by government - business authorities.

my views promote a limitless creative enviornment for myself. (subject to the self-imposed limits for this human experience). now i will pay a little more attention to my dreams to see if i can add an anecdote to this thread.

love&peace,
olde drunk

Sorry to interrupt your little conversation with loseyourname. You seem to be a dualist. Well, there is nothing bad about that, except that being one simply undermines the whole foundation of your argument. The only problem that I have with your argument is that if there were an aspect of you that existed outside time, it would still be physical since there is originally no causal and clarifying relation between physical and non-physical.

The causal and relational battle is currently between SEQUENTIALISM and SIMULTANEITY, and the fact that the latter may approach a critical point where it may overcome the former does not undermine this fact. The most this could do is to create a critical state that I habitually call ‘THE STANDARD UNIVERSAL NOW’ (SUN). Well, my own opinion is that anything that attains this critical state does not in anyway express a disaster nor neither does it express a sudden translation into non-physicality. Rather, it merely expresses an ability to act non-sequentially.

As I have pointed out elsewhere, the problem of reconciling sequentiality with simultaneity starts with the causal and relational design structure of man himself. Or to be more technical, it is a problem ‘transmutated’ from the subject of perception to the object of perception. This means that, naturally, we think and act sequentially (both in a sleep-state and in a wake-state), and as loseyourname originally pointed out, and you partially agreed, this does involve a passage of time.

My suggestion is that we should focus and concentrate our multi-disciplinary efforts on reconciling the following problematic natural relations:

1) Something and Nothing or a thing and non-thing
2) A thing and itself
3) A thing and other things
4) Identity and Change
5) Sequentiality and Simultaneity

These relations have profound and ultimate consequences on the notions of TIME, SPACE, IDENTITY, CHANGE, CONTNUITY, MATHEMATICS, LOGIC, REASON, and PERFECTION.

I am currently sceptical as to whether these problems can be reconciled in purely human terms, and this is why I started suspecting many years ago that to do this might involve adverse intevention with the entire human reality. And trust me, this is almost a no-go area, even within the scientific community itself.

[Guardian01]

Can daydreams also be considered dreams? Daydream=oxymoron? Sorry to change the subject, but the thought came up.

[Guardian01]

Can daydreams be considered dreams, technically? Daydreams=oxymoron?

[ChaosTheory]

http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:777hX_7iAYQJ:www.ode.nl/scripts/article.php%3FaID%3D3773

Try this. It's Google's cache of the website.

I really don't know how scientific it is, as there are no sources. But google is our friend :)

[russ_watters]

The day before my dad died, my mom had a dream that his time had come. He'd had a heart attack 2 weeks before, and was getting better (so the doctors said). Then one night, my mom dreamt that the doctors, dressed in pure white, where praying over him. As they did so, he was suddenly engulfed in light. Then he was gone, and my mom knew he was going to pass away.
Personally, I'm a skeptic of psuedoscience and stuff like that just because there is no credible evidence that I've ever heard of to support it. But that dream I just mentioned is one that compells me. I have my own theory, but it probably doesn't make sense.... I see an obvious coincidence there. If my father had a heart attack (and survived), my mother would dream about his impending death for years before getting over it.

[Imparcticle]

Have you ever heard of teletrons?

[OneSoul]

I have also had many dreams at night, that I seem to experience in the events of the next day. And most of them are not anything important, I have also told friends about them first and then they happen. I believe it is just part of being connected to the path I am on, or tapping into the universal source, who already knows the ansers for which we choose.

I have also done lucid dreaming, where I recognize I am dreaming while in the dream and have been able to make choices in my dream state, knowing that it is not real, at leat on the physical plane. I have had a lot of fun doing this

However none of it has seemed to make my life any easier, just sometimes I feel more faithful that there is something else out there, and we are not scientific mistakes.

[Overdose]

I see an obvious coincidence there. If my father had a heart attack (and survived), my mother would dream about his impending death for years before getting over it.

one man's prediction, another man's coincidence.

[russ_watters]

one man's prediction, another man's coincidence. And that, in a nutshesll, is why this ain't science.I have also done lucid dreaming, where I recognize I am dreaming while in the dream and have been able to make choices in my dream state, knowing that it is not real, at leat on the physical plane. I have had a lot of fun doing this Lucid dreaming is something neat I'm working on. I am semi-conscious in some of my dreams, but I can't yet control them.

[loseyourname]

Have you ever heard of teletrons?

The electronic display device or the hypothetical psychic particle?

[loseyourname]

I really don't know how scientific it is, as there are no sources. But google is our friend :)

It's difficult to tell how scientific the studies being cited in this article are. As you said, there aren't any actual citations, just references to particular names and events. It is implied that nominally scientific studies have been conducted; it would be nice to see them.

[Iacchus32]

one man's prediction, another man's coincidence.Of course if you believe in cause-and-effect, then nothing happens purely at random and, there's no such thing as an accident. Whether we wish to believe it or otherwise. :wink: By the way, if everything was relative, we have to ask relative to what? And certainly -- in the absolute sense -- that answer cannot be nothing. You also may want to consider that the immaterial, thoughts and dreams and whatnot, are a precursor to the material. Even in a simple matter such as deciding to take the dog out for a walk, before actually doing so. Whereas dreams, like the vital organs in the body, are more the precursor or, subsconscious workings of thought, in which case it's likely that they can predict what occurs beforehand.

[Deeviant]

Dreams absolutely can predict the future. Predicting the future is very easy. The hard part is correctely predicting the future.

The human mind works in funny ways, it plays tricks on itself quite often. Many times when you think you predicted something it really is a delayed thought resurfacing. Such as you are thinking about something similar to an event that happens to you, then your brain makes a connection between the two and interprets as if you had predicted the event, while in reality it was simply a coincidence. Coincidence is the birthplace of many strange beliefs.

Other times an event happens and it fits all the all the data so well you mind accepts it so quickly that it feels like you knew it was going to happen before it did. How many times have you heard the infamous "I KNEW that was going to happen" when said person had the opportunity to say something BEFORE the event happened yet did not(and their failure to do so had thus led to something bad happening as a result of said event). The same type of situation happens when you are trying to work on a problem that you believe you should know and simply can not get or remember, then somebody tells you the answer and the first reaction you get is "I knew that".

As for the poster that claims to have predicted and actually warned her ex that he was going to break his neck. That certainly is a very interesting case. It is still much short of conclusive. Its funny how people that have the "ability" to predict the future only have this ability sporatically and seems to be completely random in what triggers it or in what events it chooses to predict. Many times it seems like a simply case of the law of averages in which if you make enough predictions, some will eventually come true. Would said poster truly say that have never made a prediction that has not come true? Truly? And if such is so, surely you would use your powers for the good of mankind, predicting terrible events and warning us so we may avoid cases of large-scale loss of life.

Then of course if somebody I loved or once loved told me that I was going to break my neck, that would probably make me a pretty nervous guy even though I'm generally not a very supersitious guy, I'm human like the rest of us. If I then put myself in a position that I could possibly break my neck that nervious energy make come out in the form of panic and adversely effect my ability to deal with a dangerous situation around me and so cause me to actually break my damn neck.

So, there is really is no reason to bring a whole bunch of pseudo science/metaphysical mumbo jumbo into this discussion.


edit: added ending and spell check

[Overdose]

This is the problem with the whole thing, if youve not experienced it or dont have a close relative whos experienced it your just not going to buy into it.
We could take all the people who are most gifted in this area and throw them to james rhandi for the benefit of those who need a little more proof. But really it would be pointless, the majority of accurate predictions would be deemed too vauge, and direct hit predictions would be deemed coincidences.
Which was kind of what i was trying to get at earlier, theres no point at which you can say 'oh alright we know this isnt just a coincidence now' there just isnt.
f you really want to believe that seeing the future is impossible then all your going to see is an endless catalouge of extreme coincidences.

[vanesch]

But really it would be pointless, the majority of accurate predictions would be deemed too vauge, and direct hit predictions would be deemed coincidences.


This means that you are admitting the non-verifiability of the statement you want to make. Saying that it is "pointless to try to prove, because you won't believe me anyway" can be applied to any wrong or true statement and doesn't add anything to an argument pro or contra.

To the essential discussion here:
first of all, it is of course possible to predict (correctly) some aspects of the future. That's what science is all about: making predictions of the outcomes of experiments. So there is nothing unnatural in making predictions.
If I connect a 12 V battery to a 1 ohm resistor, I predict that I will measure a current of 12 A when I put also an ampmeter in series. Next, I actually DO this, and lo and behold: I read 12 A ! I have predicted the future ! :eek:

But I guess that's too boring to be the subject of discussion here :grumpy:.
You want mystic stuff to talk about. New Age things. Pyramids and voodoo.
So what you are talking about, which I will call premonitory dreaming, is: being told about future events which, by no means at our current disposition of science, or of past experience, could have given the suspicion that those events would take place.

So in order to demonstrate the existence of such a phenomenon, you'd have to carefully eliminate 1) those that don't count according to that definition, meaning, everything that could lead to a rational prediction of the event and 2) that the cases which remain are statistically relevant.

Let's go back to the lady that had a dream that her husband would die, after he had a few heart attacks. Admittedly, after having had a few heart attacks, you can rationally predict that the chance of dying soon is pretty high. Also, in those cases that a relative dreamt that the person would die, and in the end he didn't die, are not reported usually. So there is statistical biasing here.

On the other hand, if, say, 50 times in a row, you can dream up a number between 2 and 12 and you communicate that publicly, and the next day, I throw dice and it is each time equal to that number, I grant that premonitory dreaming in the voodoo sense exists. 1) is satisfied because the throwing of dice is random, and the public communication is sure and 2) is satisfied because of the 50 times in a row. It would convince everybody.

However, if you say of premonitory dreaming in the voodoo sense, sometimes it happens, sometimes not, in such a way that it is statistically not tractable, it should convince people that it doesn't exist and is just statistics.

cheers,
Patrick.

[Fliption]

So, there is really is no reason to bring a whole bunch of pseudo science/metaphysical mumbo jumbo into this discussion.


Since you are so sure of this then I'd like to hear a response to the story I referenced in this very thread way back on page 2.

http://physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=23430&page=2&pp=15

I can't seem to find an explanation that satisfies me. And this will be the first time I haven't been able to do that. So go ahead and take a shot.

As I point out in the story, claiming that I just ignore the dreams that don't actually happen and focus on the ones that do will not work in this case. Coincidence is a common claim and usually is accurate. But sometimes a coincidence is so amazing that it should make a reasonable person, who realizes that we don't know everything there is to know in this crazy universe of ours, wonder about what really is going on.

[Deeviant]

[QUOTE=Fliption]Since you are so sure of this then I'd like to hear a response to the story I referenced in this very thread way back on page 2.

http://physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=23430&page=2&pp=15
QUOTE]

I read your story, and I did address this kind of stuff in my post.

Dreams by their very nature are vague. Very often ideas and thoughts inside dreams are iconic and much more analogous than conscious thought.

"I had actually forgotten all about this dream."

By your own admission you had forgotten about your dream until the mourning after, then upon hearing your mother say the tree was struck by lightening, you had a sudden moment of recall. This is exactely the type of situation that I outlined in my post. Your dream was so vague, and had enough simaliarity to the events on the mourning after, that you mind automatically and subconsciously connected the two and you intrepreted that connection by feeling as if you dreamed the lightening strike the night before.

[vanesch]

Since you are so sure of this then I'd like to hear a response to the story I referenced in this very thread way back on page 2.

http://physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=23430&page=2&pp=15

I can't seem to find an explanation that satisfies me. And this will be the first time I haven't been able to do that. So go ahead and take a shot.


A few years ago, my life was much more hectic than it is now, and I used to wake up often "in the middle of a dream". It was always a confused, intense, and often scary experience. My wife often asked me what I dreamed about, and in fact it was only when I tried to explain her that the dream became a "more logical story". So I think I made up unconsciously that story when telling about my dreams, which were simply too bizarre and confused to be able to tell about. Also I noticed that when waking up because of an external event (a sound, or a light flash, or someone touching me...), that this event became an extremely violent experience in my dream.
So honestly, I really couldn't make up anything - or I could make up anything - from the very confused but intense experiences my "wake up dreams" were.
I haven't had that anymore since 3 or 4 years now (in fact since we've settled, and I'm ok in my job and so on...).
Could it be that yours was similar, in that, I don't know, a neighbour made a cracking noise or something simply fell from the table, or whatever, which made a noise that woke you up, you had a vague but intense dream where somehow you saw your dad or so and the noise became some kind of explosion, and it was only when your mother phoned you that you "completed the story of your dream" ?

cheers,
Patrick.

[Overdose]

This means that you are admitting the non-verifiability of the statement you want to make. Saying that it is "pointless to try to prove, because you won't believe me anyway" can be applied to any wrong or true statement and doesn't add anything to an argument pro or contra.


I was trying to put across that your pre-formed beliefs are always going to dictate how you interpret the outcome of experiments. And yes that works both ways!
It really comes down to wether or not the idea of some form of pre-determined future is a little far out for you or not.

But I guess that's too boring to be the subject of discussion here .
You want mystic stuff to talk about. New Age things. Pyramids and voodoo.
There's nothing new age about predicting the future, sages and seers have existed for thousands of years and have little to do with the spiritual movement that began in the early part of the last century. I dont really see where pyramids and voodoo come into any of this either, unless you're just trying to illustrate that all these thing amount to the same thing to you (i.e. mystical mumbo-jumbo) which im guessing they do.

On the other hand, if, say, 50 times in a row, you can dream up a number between 2 and 12 and you communicate that publicly, and the next day, I throw dice and it is each time equal to that number, I grant that premonitory dreaming in the voodoo sense exists. 1) is satisfied because the throwing of dice is random, and the public communication is sure and 2) is satisfied because of the 50 times in a row. It would convince everybody.

This is where i disagree and its what ive been banging on about through the whole thread, i assure you that for alot of people even if somepne accurately predicted the roll of a dice 100 times in a row. There would still be a great number of people calling it just 'an astronomical coinidence', or probably more likely they would try to infer that there had been some cheating and foul play at work. Ive seen this happen time and time again in experiments of this nature.

However, if you say of premonitory dreaming in the voodoo sense, sometimes it happens, sometimes not, in such a way that it is statistically not tractable, it should convince people that it doesn't exist and is just statistics.

And that would put you firmly in the latter camp of 'its all coinidences'.

[Fliption]

By your own admission you had forgotten about your dream until the mourning after, then upon hearing your mother say the tree was struck by lightening, you had a sudden moment of recall. This is exactely the type of situation that I outlined in my post. Your dream was so vague, and had enough simaliarity to the events on the mourning after, that you mind automatically and subconsciously connected the two and you intrepreted that connection by feeling as if you dreamed the lightening strike the night before.

Good catch but I'm afraid you have misunderatood my words. When I say that I "forgot" about the dream, I don't mean what you are thinking. Yes I forget dreams all the time and then when something happens similarly I have a vague remembrance of my dream. I know what you're saying. That's not what this was. When I say forgotten here, I only meant that I didn't dwell on it consciously throughout the day. This point isn't really relevant to the story but I mention it because I didn't want anyone to suggest that I was dwelling on the dream throughout the day and then somehow started asking my mother questions about her trees and guiding her answers to fit. So what I meant was not that I forgot about it but that I did not consciously dwell on it during the day prior to the call with my mother and therefore plan on querying her about it. I just didn't want anyone to think I was even thinking something like this might happen. Because it didn't even enter my mind as the day went on, which is why I was shocked when she said what she did.

So I agree with everything you've said because I have said the same thing myself about other instances in my life. But this is not the same thing. I just used the wrong word trying to emphasize that I wasn't consciously thinking throughout the day that I might have dreamt of something that actually happened. The thought never entered my mind, except for right after the dream itself.

BTW, I'm not sure you had the timing right. I had the dream in the morning and talked with my mother later the same day.

[Fliption]

Could it be that yours was similar, in that, I don't know, a neighbour made a cracking noise or something simply fell from the table, or whatever, which made a noise that woke you up, you had a vague but intense dream where somehow you saw your dad or so and the noise became some kind of explosion, and it was only when your mother phoned you that you "completed the story of your dream" ?


Another very good try. You're saying the same things I would say to someone who was telling me this story. Heh I guess I deserve this in a way :rolleyes: . It's actually quite funny. I have drilled so many people who told me stories like this and then something really does happen to me that I cannot explain.

So to answer your questions, yeah I think it is possible that something external made a noise and woke me up. There is no way I could say that didn't happen. I can say it is highly unlikely given the scene. But I know what you're referring to. I've had the sound of the motorcycle I was driving in my dream suddenly become the sound of my alarm clock. LOl

But I'm not sure this changes the incredulous nature of this event whether I was awaken by something externally or not. Because as soon as I woke up, I consciously thought "Wow that was a weird experience. Makes me wonder if I actually heard my parent's tree fall. And why in the world would it fall before the lighning hit it?" The story was complete that very morning. I did not need to fill in any blanks while I was on the phone with her.

AS I said in that story, I don't believe supernatural exists. But this event has done alot to convince me that nature is a very complex thing and there is much we don't understand.

[Deeviant]

Good catch but I'm afraid you have misunderatood my words. When I say that I "forgot" about the dream, I don't mean what you are thinking. Yes I forget dreams all the time and then when something happens similarly I have a vague remembrance of my dream. I know what you're saying. That's not what this was. When I say forgotten here, I only meant that I didn't dwell on it consciously throughout the day. This point isn't really relevant to the story but I mention it because I didn't want anyone to suggest that I was dwelling on the dream throughout the day and then somehow started asking my mother questions about her trees and guiding her answers to fit. So what I meant was not that I forgot about it but that I did not consciously dwell on it during the day prior to the call with my mother and therefore plan on querying her about it. I just didn't want anyone to think I was even thinking something like this might happen. Because it didn't even enter my mind as the day went on, which is why I was shocked when she said what she did.

So I agree with everything you've said because I have said the same thing myself about other instances in my life. But this is not the same thing. I just used the wrong word trying to emphasize that I wasn't consciously thinking throughout the day that I might have dreamt of something that actually happened. The thought never entered my mind, except for right after the dream itself.

BTW, I'm not sure you had the timing right. I had the dream in the morning and talked with my mother later the same day.


Well there is obviously no convincing you! So I'll leave this thread with this: You'd think, with over 6 trillion people in this world, if precognosce for the future was a possible human trait, at least one person would have the ability to control their ability. Then again, if precognosce for the future was NOT a possible human trait, then you'd expect anybody claiming to have predicited the future to NOT have the ability to control their ability, for it to be a totally random, and for them to use the concept of "faith" alot when defending their claim. Humans have always been dreamers, always wanting things they can't have, always unwilling to let go of those dreams because they give confort and sometimes a feeling of significance in this otherwise scary and seemingly random world.

[Fliption]

Well there is obviously no convincing you!


Well this isn't true in principle but it may very well be true in practice, as I'm disovering. The reason I posted this incident was because I wanted others to point to something that I might have missed. No one has done that. People have mentioned very good suggestions and every single time in my past they would have explained everything. I suspect that they still explain most things that we hear about in this very thread. But I can honestly say that none of that satisfactorily explains what happened to me. So perhaps I cannot be convinced by these explanations because I shouldn't be. Because they are wrong.


So I'll leave this thread with this: You'd think, with over 6 trillion people in this world, if precognosce for the future was a possible human trait, at least one person would have the ability to control their ability. Then again, if precognosce for the future was NOT a possible human trait, then you'd expect anybody claiming to have predicited the future to NOT have the ability to control their ability, for it to be a totally random, and for them to use the concept of "faith" alot when defending their claim. Humans have always been dreamers, always wanting things they can't have, always unwilling to let go of those dreams because they give confort and sometimes a feeling of significance in this otherwise scary and seemingly random world.

Yeah you would think. I think this is true for the most part. But again, it doesn't sync up with my event. I have no faith, no desire and until this event, have absolutely been almost harsh to people who told me such things. I've always been amazed at how quickly people are to grasp onto something that is clearly considered impossible and I have been almost militant trying to get them to consider the alternatives that are so obvious to me. I will continue to do this by the way. Only I wll probably be a little more patient now.

As to the 6 trillion people remarks....... since it is logical to think that lower life forms are conscious in some way and that consciousness has likely evolved to get where it is in humans, doesn't it make sense that it could continue to evolve? Perhaps what you're seeing are the few slight mutations that allow this type of thing every once in a while. But no one has evolved to the point to control such a thing. This is pure speculation of course. But I am open to more ideas than I used to be. Since the nature of consciousness is a huge debate right now and its reductive explanation eludes us at the moment, there is no scientific reason to suggest these things could not happen.

Also, in my situation I didn't see anything in the future. I think that's saying things about physics that is even more of a stretch than what has already been suggested. My dream happened in the morning and the actually tree falling happened the previous night. So I actually dreamed it after it happened. This doesn't require any sort of weird time distortion ideas. It only suggest that somehow my mental content was influenced somehow by some other event that occurred in nature. It sounds kooky to me. And I will question it until either someone proves this stuff or the day I die. But I can't reasonably not consider it anymore.

[Wolf]

Most times i cannot recall what i dreamt about the night before but then at some time in the future , weather it be the next day or months later something will happen and i'll have a felling of deja view then i'll recall that what i am seing at the moment is something i dreamt about at some point in the past.

Now once and a while that's ok but i have had this happening to me for the past year it happens a LOT i'll say to myself quite often i "dreamt this before"
it's weird really.

Here is the newest example.
The other day i made plans with some friends to go to the busceres (a festival we have in halifax) and in my dream that night we went to the buscers and we went to a stage near the harbor.When we got to the stage i looked over and i saw someone from my past who i miss greatly and i became overwhelmed with sadness.

The next day when we actually went to the busceres i had in fact remembered my dream and that i had saw my friend david at the busceres(the problem their being is david is dead) and we in fact did go to the same stage as my dream.
At the stage i was looked around sort of creped out because of the dream and while looking i saw an ex girlfriend of mine.
In my dream i had saw david and i became sad but the ex i had seen is a girl that i have missed greatly since we broke up and i was overwelmed by sadness.
Although the person was not the same the feelings were almost identical
i still wish i could be with david(may he rest in eternal peace) as a friend and with her has a intimitly but hey life goes on.

There was one other thing that happened that day but was different, a show was about to start with a magician and before he started i said to myself that it would be cool to see a magician do the entire act in silence and that is exactly what the magician did, sorta creepy.

The thing about these dreams that i have is i do not know what will happen in the "future" until it happens and then the question i ask myself is should i take the dreams as a warning to not do what i did in the dream or is it the opposite and i should follow the actions here is the other cacth in almost all my dreams i can control my actions in the dream so do my actions in the dreams preset what will happen in reality? just a thought i don't really believe it but it will be interesting to talk about

[Impossible?]

Dreams are amazing, ive shouted and screamed in my sleep, and had whole conversations. once i was dreaming about a particular outfit, and woke up on the morning to find it neatly laid out at the end of my bed. im very concious when im asleep, and my dad has sleep problems too- hereditary?