Who coined the term "relativistic mass"?

[Pmb]

[Moderator's note: Lines reformatted to make them shorter. Although 80
is a maximum to enable nice display on almost all terminals, it's better
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I asked this question before and never got an answer. I'm hoping that
new people are on here who might just know the answer to the question:
Who coined the term "relativistic mass" and where, i.e. I need a
reference so I can read the source of the terms original usage. Thanks
in advance.

Pete

[J. J. Lodder]

Pmb <peter.m.brown@somewhere.net> wrote:

[Moderator's note: Too much quoted text trimmed. -P.H.]

> I asked this question before and never got an answer. I'm hoping that
> new people are on here who might just know the answer to the question:
> Who coined the term "relativistic mass" and where, i.e. I need a
> reference so I can read the source of the terms original usage. Thanks
> in advance.

Wikipedia says that Richard Tolman did it, in 1912, by defining
relativistic momentum (as defined by Planck) as relativistic mass times
velocity. (thereby getting rid of the miseries of transverse and
longitudinal 'masses', and freeing the concept from attemps to formulate
quasi-Newtonian 'force laws')

This seems to be common knowledge. You have a reason for doubting this?

Jan

[Pmb]

"J. J. Lodder" <nospam@de-ster.demon.nl> wrote in message
news:1ij3syw.1r5vjhmktjz94N@de-ster.xs4all.nl...
> Pmb <peter.m.brown@somewhere.net> wrote:
>
> [Moderator's note: Too much quoted text trimmed. -P.H.]
>
>> I asked this question before and never got an answer. I'm hoping that
>> new people are on here who might just know the answer to the question:
>> Who coined the term "relativistic mass" and where, i.e. I need a
>> reference so I can read the source of the terms original usage. Thanks
>> in advance.
>
> Wikipedia says that Richard Tolman did it, in 1912, by defining
> relativistic momentum (as defined by Planck) as relativistic mass times
> velocity.

He defined the concept of a velocity dependant mass. However he didn't use
the term "relativistic mass" in that paper.

> (thereby getting rid of the miseries of transverse and
> longitudinal 'masses', and freeing the concept from attemps to formulate
> quasi-Newtonian 'force laws')
>
> This seems to be common knowledge. You have a reason for doubting this?

I don't doubt that Tolman defined mass as the m in p = mv. What I'm looking
for is the first usage of the term "relativistic mass." I had stated this
above. I had hoped I was being clear. Perhaps not? Thanks for your response.
Always appreciated.

Pete

[J. J. Lodder]

Pmb <someone@somewhere.com> wrote:

> "J. J. Lodder" <nospam@de-ster.demon.nl> wrote in message
> news:1ij3syw.1r5vjhmktjz94N@de-ster.xs4all.nl...
> > Pmb <peter.m.brown@somewhere.net> wrote:
> >
> > [Moderator's note: Too much quoted text trimmed. -P.H.]
> >
> >> I asked this question before and never got an answer. I'm hoping that
> >> new people are on here who might just know the answer to the question:
> >> Who coined the term "relativistic mass" and where, i.e. I need a
> >> reference so I can read the source of the terms original usage. Thanks
> >> in advance.
> >
> > Wikipedia says that Richard Tolman did it, in 1912, by defining
> > relativistic momentum (as defined by Planck) as relativistic mass times
> > velocity.
>
> He defined the concept of a velocity dependant mass.

That's most certainly wrong.
The velocity dependent mass (Lorentz, electromagnetic mass)
predated relativity by about 10 years.

> However he didn't use the term "relativistic mass" in that paper.

Wiki says explicitly 'coined the expression' that he did
===
> The velocity dependent mass of Lorentz and Abraham were replaced by the
> concept of relativistic mass, an expression which was coined by Richard C.
> Tolman in 1912, who stated: "the expression m0(1 - v2/c2)-1/2 is best
> suited for THE mass of a moving body."[13]
===
If you know better you should perhaps correct this wiki entry.
Do you have a copy of of their ref [13]
R. Tolman, Philosophical Magazine 23, 375 (1912).
at hand?

> > (thereby getting rid of the miseries of transverse and
> > longitudinal 'masses', and freeing the concept from attemps to formulate
> > quasi-Newtonian 'force laws')
> >
> > This seems to be common knowledge. You have a reason for doubting this?
>
> I don't doubt that Tolman defined mass as the m in p = mv. What I'm looking
> for is the first usage of the term "relativistic mass." I had stated this
> above. I had hoped I was being clear. Perhaps not? Thanks for your response.
> Always appreciated.

You are not clear about having seen ref. [13] yourself.
(I'll try to have a look later)
Did you?

Jan

[Pmb]

"J. J. Lodder" <nospam@de-ster.demon.nl> wrote in message
news:1ijbjop.1ql4rwc1ipz5vqN@de-ster.xs4all.nl...
> Pmb <someone@somewhere.com> wrote:
>
>> "J. J. Lodder" <nospam@de-ster.demon.nl> wrote in message
>> news:1ij3syw.1r5vjhmktjz94N@de-ster.xs4all.nl...
>> > Pmb <peter.m.brown@somewhere.net> wrote:
>> >
>> > [Moderator's note: Too much quoted text trimmed. -P.H.]
>> >
>> >> I asked this question before and never got an answer. I'm hoping that
>> >> new people are on here who might just know the answer to the question:
>> >> Who coined the term "relativistic mass" and where, i.e. I need a
>> >> reference so I can read the source of the terms original usage. Thanks
>> >> in advance.
>> >
>> > Wikipedia says that Richard Tolman did it, in 1912, by defining
>> > relativistic momentum (as defined by Planck) as relativistic mass times
>> > velocity.
>>
>> He defined the concept of a velocity dependant mass.
>
> That's most certainly wrong.
> The velocity dependent mass (Lorentz, electromagnetic mass)
> predated relativity by about 10 years.
>
>> However he didn't use the term "relativistic mass" in that paper.
>
> Wiki says explicitly 'coined the expression' that he did
> ===
>> The velocity dependent mass of Lorentz and Abraham were replaced by the
>> concept of relativistic mass, an expression which was coined by Richard
>> C.
>> Tolman in 1912, who stated: "the expression m0(1 - v2/c2)-1/2 is best
>> suited for THE mass of a moving body."[13]
> ===
> If you know better you should perhaps correct this wiki entry.
> Do you have a copy of of their ref [13]
> R. Tolman, Philosophical Magazine 23, 375 (1912).
> at hand?

Yes.

>> > (thereby getting rid of the miseries of transverse and
>> > longitudinal 'masses', and freeing the concept from attemps to
>> > formulate
>> > quasi-Newtonian 'force laws')
>> >
>> > This seems to be common knowledge. You have a reason for doubting this?
>>
>> I don't doubt that Tolman defined mass as the m in p = mv. What I'm
>> looking
>> for is the first usage of the term "relativistic mass." I had stated this
>> above. I had hoped I was being clear. Perhaps not? Thanks for your
>> response.
>> Always appreciated.
>
> You are not clear about having seen ref. [13] yourself.
> (I'll try to have a look later)
> Did you?

Yes. I thought I made this clear since I stated explicitly above
"However he didn't use the term "relativistic mass" in that paper."
Didn't that tell you that I read the paper? If not then I apologize for
the confusion. I'll write to wiki. Thanks.

Pete

[Pmb]

"Pmb" <someone@somewhere.com> wrote in message
news:_-CdnTki36B27fXVnZ2dnUVZ_sTinZ2d@comcast.com...
> "J. J. Lodder" <nospam@de-ster.demon.nl> wrote in message
> news:1ijbjop.1ql4rwc1ipz5vqN@de-ster.xs4all.nl...
>> Pmb <someone@somewhere.com> wrote:
>>
>>> "J. J. Lodder" <nospam@de-ster.demon.nl> wrote in message
>>> news:1ij3syw.1r5vjhmktjz94N@de-ster.xs4all.nl...
>>> > Pmb <peter.m.brown@somewhere.net> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > [Moderator's note: Too much quoted text trimmed. -P.H.]
>>> >
>>> >> I asked this question before and never got an answer. I'm hoping that
>>> >> new people are on here who might just know the answer to the
>>> >> question:
>>> >> Who coined the term "relativistic mass" and where, i.e. I need a
>>> >> reference so I can read the source of the terms original usage.
>>> >> Thanks
>>> >> in advance.
>>> >
>>> > Wikipedia says that Richard Tolman did it, in 1912, by defining
>>> > relativistic momentum (as defined by Planck) as relativistic mass
>>> > times
>>> > velocity.
>>>
>>> He defined the concept of a velocity dependant mass.
>>
>> That's most certainly wrong.

Correction. He originated the concept of relativistic mass. However the
notion was there before him. This is evident when (if I recall correctly
that is) Planck expressed the Lorentz force as

d(gamma*m*v)/dt = q[E + vxB]

Did Planck ever hint at "gamma*m*v" being considered some sort of mass?

Pete

[maxwell]

On Jun 30, 6:01pm, Pmb <some...@somewhere.com> wrote:
> "Pmb" <some...@somewhere.com> wrote in message
>
> news:_-CdnTki36B27fXVnZ2dnUVZ_sTinZ2d@comcast.com...
>
>
>
> > "J. J. Lodder" <nos...@de-ster.demon.nl> wrote in message
> >news:1ijbjop.1ql4rwc1ipz5vqN@de-ster.xs4all.nl...
> >> Pmb <some...@somewhere.com> wrote:
>
> >>> "J. J. Lodder" <nos...@de-ster.demon.nl> wrote in message
> >>>news:1ij3syw.1r5vjhmktjz94N@de-ster.xs4all.nl...
> >>> > Pmb <peter.m.br...@somewhere.net> wrote:
>
> >>> > [Moderator's note: Too much quoted text trimmed. -P.H.]
>
> >>> >> I asked this question before and never got an answer. I'm hoping that
> >>> >> new people are on here who might just know the answer to the
> >>> >> question:
> >>> >> Who coined the term "relativistic mass" and where, i.e. I need a
> >>> >> reference so I can read the source of the terms original usage.
> >>> >> Thanks
> >>> >> in advance.
>
> >>> > Wikipedia says that Richard Tolman did it, in 1912, by defining
> >>> > relativistic momentum (as defined by Planck) as relativistic mass
> >>> > times
> >>> > velocity.
>
> >>> He defined the concept of a velocity dependant mass.
>
> >> That's most certainly wrong.
>
> Correction. He originated the concept of relativistic mass. However the
> notion was there before him. This is evident when (if I recall correctly
> that is) Planck expressed the Lorentz force as
>
> d(gamma*m*v)/dt = q[E + vxB]
>
> Did Planck ever hint at "gamma*m*v" being considered some sort of mass?
>
> Pete

One of the problems with "Planck's Proposal" for his relativistic re-
definition of momentum in 1906/7 (the actual basis of today's
'derivation' of E = Mc2) is that the final form of the formula (P = L
m v) is ambiguous, as different textbook authors illustrate. Some
choose the 'relativistic mass' M = L m while others allocate the
'Lorentz' (gamma) factor L to the velocity, generating the spatial
part of a relativistic '4-velocity' V = L v.

[Hendrik van Hees]

maxwell wrote:

> One of the problems with "Planck's Proposal" for his relativistic re-
> definition of momentum in 1906/7 (the actual basis of today's
> 'derivation' of E = Mc2) is that the final form of the formula (P = L
> m v) is ambiguous, as different textbook authors illustrate. Some
> choose the 'relativistic mass' M = L m while others allocate the
> 'Lorentz' (gamma) factor L to the velocity, generating the spatial
> part of a relativistic '4-velocity' V = L v.

IMHO is the least doubtful way to figure out, what the expressions for
basic quantities, energy, momentum, and angular momentum, are to use
Noether's theorem. By definition these quantities are the generators
for time translation, spatial translations, and rotations. Further, if
in this connection one looks at the representation theory of the
Poincare group, there is no doubt that mass in SRT should better be
used only in the sense of "invariant mass", i.e., as one of the Casimir
operators of the Poincare group. This concept has the advantage that
then by definition "mass" is a scalar quantity. Energy should be called
energy and not "relativistic masss". It's the time component of the
energy-momentum four vector:

E=m/sqrt(1-v^2)
\vec{p}=m \vec{v}/sqrt(1-v^2),

where I've set c=1 (natural units) to keep the expressions simple.

--
Hendrik van Hees Institut für Theoretische Physik
Phone: +49 641 99-33342 Justus-Liebig-Universität Gießen
Fax: +49 641 99-33309 D-35392 Gießen
http://theory.gsi.de/~vanhees/faq/

[Pmb]

"maxwell" <spsi@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:1b6f8d33-dd7e-440f-b3eb-730da9bdce02@x19g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
> On Jun 30, 6:01pm, Pmb <some...@somewhere.com> wrote:
>> "Pmb" <some...@somewhere.com> wrote in message
>>
>> news:_-CdnTki36B27fXVnZ2dnUVZ_sTinZ2d@comcast.com...
>>
>>
>>
>> > "J. J. Lodder" <nos...@de-ster.demon.nl> wrote in message
>> >news:1ijbjop.1ql4rwc1ipz5vqN@de-ster.xs4all.nl...
>> >> Pmb <some...@somewhere.com> wrote:
>>
>> >>> "J. J. Lodder" <nos...@de-ster.demon.nl> wrote in message
>> >>>news:1ij3syw.1r5vjhmktjz94N@de-ster.xs4all.nl...
>> >>> > Pmb <peter.m.br...@somewhere.net> wrote:
>>
>> >>> > [Moderator's note: Too much quoted text trimmed. -P.H.]
>>
>> >>> >> I asked this question before and never got an answer. I'm hoping
>> >>> >> that
>> >>> >> new people are on here who might just know the answer to the
>> >>> >> question:
>> >>> >> Who coined the term "relativistic mass" and where, i.e. I need a
>> >>> >> reference so I can read the source of the terms original usage.
>> >>> >> Thanks
>> >>> >> in advance.
>>
>> >>> > Wikipedia says that Richard Tolman did it, in 1912, by defining
>> >>> > relativistic momentum (as defined by Planck) as relativistic mass
>> >>> > times
>> >>> > velocity.
>>
>> >>> He defined the concept of a velocity dependant mass.
>>
>> >> That's most certainly wrong.
>>
>> Correction. He originated the concept of relativistic mass. However the
>> notion was there before him. This is evident when (if I recall correctly
>> that is) Planck expressed the Lorentz force as
>>
>> d(gamma*m*v)/dt = q[E + vxB]
>>
>> Did Planck ever hint at "gamma*m*v" being considered some sort of mass?
>>
>> Pete
>
> One of the problems with "Planck's Proposal" for his relativistic re-
> definition of momentum in 1906/7 (the actual basis of today's
> 'derivation' of E = Mc2) is that the final form of the formula (P = L
> m v) is ambiguous, as different textbook authors illustrate. Some
> choose the 'relativistic mass' M = L m while others allocate the
> 'Lorentz' (gamma) factor L to the velocity, generating the spatial
> part of a relativistic '4-velocity' V = L v.

This is not relevant to my question. I've been trying to avoid these kinds
of issues in this thread. Especially since its being discussed in other
threads.

Pete

[Nicolaas Vroom]

"Hendrik van Hees" <hees@comp.tamu.edu> schreef in bericht
news:g4huqd$elb$1@news2.open-news-network.org...

>
> IMHO is the least doubtful way to figure out, what the expressions for
> basic quantities, energy, momentum, and angular momentum, are to use
> Noether's theorem. By definition these quantities are the generators
> for time translation, spatial translations, and rotations. Further, if
> in this connection one looks at the representation theory of the
> Poincare group, there is no doubt that mass in SRT should better be
> used only in the sense of "invariant mass", i.e., as one of the Casimir
> operators of the Poincare group. This concept has the advantage that
> then by definition "mass" is a scalar quantity. Energy should be called
> energy and not "relativistic masss". It's the time component of the
> energy-momentum four vector:
>
> E=m/sqrt(1-v^2)
> \vec{p}=m \vec{v}/sqrt(1-v^2),
>
> where I've set c=1 (natural units) to keep the expressions simple.
>
If my understanding of your reply is correct than what you write
is almost identical with the document by Lev B. Okun at:
http://www.physicstoday.org/vol-42/iss-6/vol42no6p31_36.pdf
Specific See page 32.

Both of you consider m to be a scalar (constant)
and as such m does not change with speed.

The subject energy-momemtum four-vector is also discussed at:
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/relativ/vec4.html
Here we read:
"The invariance of the energy-momentum four-vector is
associated with the fact that the rest mass of a particle
is invariant under coordinate transformations."

My impression is that Mr Okun will not agree with this.
What is your opinion ?

At page 47 of the book
by Ray d'Inverno "Introducing Einstein's Relativity"
we see a curve going upwards starting from m0 at v=0
to m(u)=infinity for v=c
with the text:
Fig 4.4 Relativistic mass as a function of velocity.
Should not this be:
Fig 4.4 Energy as a function of velocity ?

Nicolaas Vroom
http://users.pandora.be/nicvroom/

[harry]

"Hendrik van Hees" <hees@comp.tamu.edu> wrote in message
news:g4huqd$elb$1@news2.open-news-network.org...
> maxwell wrote:
>
>> One of the problems with "Planck's Proposal" for his relativistic re-
>> definition of momentum in 1906/7 (the actual basis of today's
>> 'derivation' of E = Mc2) is that the final form of the formula (P = L
>> m v) is ambiguous, as different textbook authors illustrate. Some
>> choose the 'relativistic mass' M = L m while others allocate the
>> 'Lorentz' (gamma) factor L to the velocity, generating the spatial
>> part of a relativistic '4-velocity' V = L v.
>
> IMHO is the least doubtful way to figure out, what the expressions for
> basic quantities, energy, momentum, and angular momentum, are to use
> Noether's theorem. By definition these quantities are the generators
> for time translation, spatial translations, and rotations. Further, if
> in this connection one looks at the representation theory of the
> Poincare group, there is no doubt that mass in SRT should better be
> used only in the sense of "invariant mass", i.e., as one of the Casimir
> operators of the Poincare group. This concept has the advantage that
> then by definition "mass" is a scalar quantity.

That's a bit besides the topic, but it raises an interesting point:
according to some dictionaries and uses, a scalar simply has no
direction while a vector does have direction -
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/scalar Anyway, would you also call energy
"not a scalar quantity"? If so, do you deem that to be a disadvantage of
the use of "energy"?

> Energy should be called energy and not "relativistic masss".

Indeed, energy is physically not the same as mass and in general it's
not the same numerically either (see
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.physics.research/msg/dcd13814f4019d50).

[...]

Thanks,
Harald

[Oh No]

Thus spake harry <harald.vanlintelButNotThis@epfl.ch>
>"Hendrik van Hees" <hees@comp.tamu.edu> wrote in message
>news:g4huqd$elb$1@news2.open-news-network.org...

>Anyway, would you also call energy
>"not a scalar quantity"? If so, do you deem that to be a disadvantage of
>the use of "energy"?

Energy is the time component of a vector quantity.

>> Energy should be called energy and not "relativistic masss".
>
>Indeed, energy is physically not the same as mass and in general it's
>not the same numerically either (see
>http://groups.google.com/group/sci.physics.research/msg/dcd13814f4019d50).
>
Bear in mind that the author of that post was discussing mass in the
Newtonian correspondence, in which there is also a gravitational
potential energy. Strictly, from a gr perspective, both the flat
background required of Newtonian gravity, and this potential, are
somewhat artificial concepts.

Regards

--
Charles Francis
moderator sci.physics.foundations.
charles (dot) e (dot) h (dot) francis (at) googlemail.com (remove spaces and
braces)

http://www.teleconnection.info/rqg/MainIndex

[Chalky]

On Jul 9, 7:15 am, Oh No <N...@charlesfrancis.wanadoo.co.uk> wrote:
> Thus spake harry <harald.vanlintelButNotT...@epfl.ch>
>
> >"Hendrik van Hees" <h...@comp.tamu.edu> wrote in message
> >news:g4huqd$elb$1@news2.open-news-network.org...
> >Anyway, would you also call energy
> >"not a scalar quantity"? If so, do you deem that to be a disadvantage of
> >the use of "energy"?
>
> Energy is the time component of a vector quantity.
>
> >> Energy should be called energy and not "relativistic masss".
>
> >Indeed, energy is physically not the same as mass and in general it's
> >not the same numerically either (see
> >http://groups.google.com/group/sci.physics.research/msg/dcd13814f4019d50).
>
> Bear in mind that the author of that post was discussing mass in the
> Newtonian correspondence, in which there is also a gravitational
> potential energy.

I don't really see what all the fuss is about here. The most famous
relativistic equation (in the population at large) is E = Mc^2.
Clearly this has to be modified for masses with K.E.too, relative to
the observer.

Gravitational potential energy would seem to be an arbitrary
additional red herring in this respect. Potential energy relative to
what?
The Earth? The Sun? The galactic nucleus? A given celestial body's
surface, or its core?

[Dono]

On Jun 30, 6:01 pm, Pmb <some...@somewhere.com> wrote:
> "Pmb" <some...@somewhere.com> wrote in message
>
> news:_-CdnTki36B27fXVnZ2dnUVZ_sTinZ2d@comcast.com...
>
>
>
> > "J. J. Lodder" <nos...@de-ster.demon.nl> wrote in message
> >news:1ijbjop.1ql4rwc1ipz5vqN@de-ster.xs4all.nl...
> >> Pmb <some...@somewhere.com> wrote:
>
> >>> "J. J. Lodder" <nos...@de-ster.demon.nl> wrote in message
> >>>news:1ij3syw.1r5vjhmktjz94N@de-ster.xs4all.nl...
> >>> > Pmb <peter.m.br...@somewhere.net> wrote:
>
> >>> > [Moderator's note: Too much quoted text trimmed. -P.H.]
>
> >>> >> I asked this question before and never got an answer. I'm hoping that
> >>> >> new people are on here who might just know the answer to the
> >>> >> question:
> >>> >> Who coined the term "relativistic mass" and where, i.e. I need a
> >>> >> reference so I can read the source of the terms original usage.
> >>> >> Thanks
> >>> >> in advance.
>
> >>> > Wikipedia says that Richard Tolman did it, in 1912, by defining
> >>> > relativistic momentum (as defined by Planck) as relativistic mass
> >>> > times
> >>> > velocity.
>
> >>> He defined the concept of a velocity dependant mass.
>
> >> That's most certainly wrong.
>
> Correction. He originated the concept of relativistic mass. However the
> notion was there before him. This is evident when (if I recall correctly
> that is) Planck expressed the Lorentz force as
>
> d(gamma*m*v)/dt = q[E + vxB]
>
> Did Planck ever hint at "gamma*m*v" being considered some sort of mass?
>
> Pete



No, he didn't.
As opposed to your rather silly carrying on with "relativistic mass",
Planck
did the obvious thing and he continued by writing:

m (v*d\gamma/dt+\gamma*dv/dt)=q(E+vxB)

where \gamma=1/sqrt(1-(v/c)^2)

Then, he proceeded to solve the above differential equation.
You solved it (albeit incorrectly) on your webpage for the trivial
case E=0.
Can you solve it for the general case E=! 0 ?
I'll give you a hint, you can't use "relativisic mass" :-)