Inequality: Men vs. Women

[Jordan Joab]

Men

- Take her out to dinner.
- Make her feel special.
- Get job/house/car/career/etc.
- Write poems.
- Write/sing/play songs and instruments.
- get special skills.
- Stand out from the crowd.
- Financial security.
- And countless other things men have to do to "mate."

In the end, sex not guaranteed.

Women

"I'm in the mood tonight."

Sex guaranteed.


Why doesn't this happen to me?:cry:

http://www.geocities.com/area51/shadowlands/6583/et051.html

[Cyrus]

Man, I hope you dont really do what you have on that list for men.

[Moonbear]

Man, I hope you dont really do what you have on that list for men.

What's wrong with that list? My boyfriend does everything on that list for me, except play an instrument (well, it's not all for me...some he'd do anyway, like the financial security part). His poems are pretty bad too, but they make me laugh, so I still enjoy it. It's all appreciated. I do the same in return for him (minus instruments and bad poems). It's the list for women that's a bit pathetic.

[rootX]

What's wrong with that list? My boyfriend does everything on that list for me, except play an instrument (well, it's not all for me...some he'd do anyway, like the financial security part). His poems are pretty bad too, but they make me laugh, so I still enjoy it. It's all appreciated. I do the same in return for him (minus instruments and bad poems). It's the list for women that's a bit pathetic.

It sounds BS : only happens in romantic movies ... :approve:

[lisab]

Men

- Take her out to dinner.
- Make her feel special.
- Get job/house/car/career/etc.
- Write poems.
- Write/sing/play songs and instruments.
- get special skills.
- Stand out from the crowd.
- Financial security.
- And countless other things men have to do to "mate."

In the end, sex not guaranteed.



Do you do all these things...but only to increase the chance that you'll have sex?

[hypatia]

My husband does most of the things on the list, but I do those things for him too.
Make him dinner, and breakfast and lunch
Make him feel special
Work, contribute to our income{40+ hrs a week}
Special skills, yea I can use a hammer drill, a ban saw and most tools.
Stand out in a crowd, and prepare food and entertainment for the crowd
Wash dishes, scrub toilets,clean floors, make beds, change the oil in the cars, take care of pets, make appointments, food shopping, house hold shopping, tend the garden, laundry, doctor wounds and administer medications ...

In the end, sex not guaranteed.

[wolram]

We should go back to the olden days when one could buy a wife, the only down side to that was if you did not get on she would have her kin folk carve you up for shark bait,
still that is a better fate than being nagged to death.

[turbo]

Lame thread! My wife and I complement each other very well without that lop-sided crap posed by the OP. I have a medical disability, so while I tend our vegetable garden, she is pulling in a paycheck and keeping us in medical insurance. In the meantime, I'm the one making pickles, preserves, salsas, etc and canning and freezing produce to keep us in food for the next year. I pick wild berries, fiddleheads, apples, etc, clean and process and freeze them, and we have two large chest freezers jam-packed with food for future use. Yep! Lame.

[Evo]

Hmmmm, the last guy I dated just said "my name is.... google me". After 3 hours of reading about him, I was putty in his hands.

[Redbelly98]

That list pretty much jives with some advice 2 friends of mine gave me years ago. A man has to go to a lot of trouble to get a woman to like him, because he has to first convince her he's not some kind of weirdo or pervert.

After hearing that advice, relationships became a lot easier for me.

[rootX]

That list pretty much jives with some advice 2 friends of mine gave me years ago. A man has to go to a lot of trouble to get a woman to like him, because he has to first convince her he's not some kind of weirdo or pervert.

At one moment, women want to be equal to men and at other, they just want men to do everything for them ... :smile:

I would never do any of romantic thing, and wouldn't try to prove other things even if I am working hard to get them.

[Jordan Joab]

Man, I hope you dont really do what you have on that list for men.

I have done many of those things and more. I just realized how much garbage I have done and been through just for the sake of a relationship. Even worse, I came to the conclusion that marriage is a huge waste of time and energy, at least for me. And worst of all, when one is 25yrs old and haven't had sex in ages one becomes irrational and angry.:mad:

What really annoys me is that women know all this and many use it as a weapon. When can we replace them?


~J

[russ_watters]

Why doesn't this happen to me?:cry:

http://www.geocities.com/area51/shadowlands/6583/et051.html So....if I tell her I'm an alien, she'll do me? Why didn't anyone tell me this before?!??!

[russ_watters]

Hmmmm, the last guy I dated just said "my name is.... google me". After 3 hours of reading about him, I was putty in his hands.
My real name is George Bush. Google me.

[Cyrus]

What's wrong with that list? My boyfriend does everything on that list for me, except play an instrument (well, it's not all for me...some he'd do anyway, like the financial security part). His poems are pretty bad too, but they make me laugh, so I still enjoy it. It's all appreciated. I do the same in return for him (minus instruments and bad poems). It's the list for women that's a bit pathetic.

I'll rewrite the list with exactly whats wrong with it, item for item.

Men

- Take her out to dinner.

Yes thats fine, and she can pay for her own dinner. If this is implying to buy her dinner then the man is being used. I'm typing this after coming from a bar so its 4:05 am right now. I was talking to this blonde girl (EEEK BLONDE GIRL AHHHH!!), and she was telling me about this other bar that has cheap drinks on a certain day. I interrupted her and said so what, your a girl. She said nooooooo, its not just for girls that night, its cheap drinks for everyone. I stopped her again and said, no thats not what I meant. You're a girl, you should never pay for drinks. You're supposed to go up to a guy standing at the bar, run your hand through your hair and say hi your cute. Then he'll offer to buy you a drink. After you get your drink you look behind him and say 'oh, theres my friends I gotta run!' and walk away with your free drink. Well, she told me she was going to the bathroom. She came back 15 mins later and said, 'want a sip of my drink, its courtesy of the US army!' So not only did this poor sucker buy her a drink, she brought it back and is sharing it with me. Moral of the story, girls use guys to get free stuff all the time. Wise up and make her pay for her own meals, guys.

- Make her feel special.

Careful, dont confuse 'make her feel special' with obsessing over her. I have lots of girls tell me about boyfriends who are not confident and would want their attention 24-7. Know your limits.

- Get job/house/car/career/etc.

I tell every girl I meet at a bar that I drive a trash truck. Its none of their damn business how much money I make, how big my house is, or what kind of car I drive. If you need these things, you probably violated the first thing on this list by trying to buy her. This is a MAJOR NO NO.

- Write poems.

Roses are read, violets are blue. This is really lame, and so are you. If your going to do this, I hope you really know a lot about poetry to make something thats actually nice. Or just copy something down that you read that was nice. But its very high-schoolish, in my opinon. If your good at poetry then by all means write away! I wouldnt try it because my poem would end up being an equation that I thought was nice....and she'd be like ......are you serious?............

- Write/sing/play songs and instruments.

Uh, no. Absolutely not.

- get special skills.

I got skillz to pay da billz, Holla backkkkkkk yalll. Again, no.

- Stand out from the crowd.

Well, I would not write it that way. I would instead say, be interesting. No one wants to hang around boring people. (Well, maybe some people do...that's kinda sad and pathetic) Most guys talk about lame stuff girls dont want to hear. Bla bla bla sports, bla bla bla cars, bla bla bla my buddies did x,y,z. Or if its at a bar, "hi, whats your name.......so what do you do..........im really boring and I wont go away and I'll sit here and ask you lame questions all night long. Hey where are you going? I'll just wait here incase you get back ........" Ouch, have some personality.

- Financial security.

No, im not a sugar daddy.

- And countless other things men have to do to "mate."

Actually, less is more. Just grab her tushy and give it a firm squeeze so she jumps, -she'll love it I promise. (But please, dont just walk up to a girl and do this. Thats called sexual assult).

In the end, sex not guaranteed.

It should be if you play your cards right. But then again, I dont even like kissing a girl I dont know or just met, unless shes really really really hot. I dont know where her mouth has been. But if were talking a relationship, you should be able to keep her happy by showing her effection in ways that DOES NOT require spending money. Spend time with her, spend time getting to know her and listening to what she has to say. Do activities with her that she enjoys that are new to you so its something different for you at the same time. Thats the fun of meeting people, sharing new experiences you probably would not have known or thought of on your daily routine. That's the variety that makes life interesting.

Chomp chomp chomp, how's your food? Chomp chomp chomp.............it's all right. Chomp chomp chomp (thinking, I hope this is going well!) .......chomp chomp. Here's the bill sir, $69.00! Chomp chomp......gulp...........ahhhh dammit.

I think I'll pass on that dinner......

I would change the list for women to the following though:

Women

Have something interesting about yourself. A hobby, a passion, anything. Art, science, literally. Just like SOMETHING so you dont look to a realtionship as a means to passing your boredom. A lot of people look for relationships as simply something to do, both men and women.

Take care of your body. Exercise, eat well, get enough sleep. Dont smoke or do drugs. Look your best and have a positive outlook on life in the things you do (This list is also for men).

Thats enough for now, im sure I'll get 10x pages of people arguing with me now...:frown:

[Jordan Joab]

Speaking on behalf of just myself, as a married man I honestly don't care what a woman brings to the table as long as there's good sex involved. I'm 25. I've been married for 5 years (we've been together for a little over 10yrs). I've been through all the motions of cuddling, arguing, spending time together, and all that garbage couples do. I'm tired of it. I don't care if my wife cooks, cleans, does laundry, or whatever for me since I can do all that myself. At this point in my life I want the sex, nothing more.

Even married, I gotta jump through hoops just to make her happy like the time I had to take a bus at 2am to go 5miles away to get her some food she wanted. I'll admit I did that out of love but now that I think about it, it wasn't worth it.

I will never ever again spend money or time on any woman. I'm jaded. I'm so jaded, my standards have been lowered significantly. I'll go out with anything. I've played my cards correctly many times, I know this, but I still end up crashing and burning because men and women play different games with the same cards.

What the hell happened to the myth of "married men get it easily!"


~J

[Chi Meson]

My real name is George Bush. Google me.

Not so good at back rubs, evidently.

"Achtung! Was ist das? Raus! Raus!"

[Jimmy Snyder]

Don't anybody show that list to my wife or I'm a dead man.

[Fearless]

LOL. This thread is such a blast. I don't really know where to begin, but Cyrus is on to something.

If women want equal treatment, they shouldn't play on the stereotypes and whatnot. They should pay for their own meals, drinks, things etc. Occasional presents is great stuff, but they should only get them on anniversaries and birthdays.

Then another thing is, it depends on what kind of girls you like and are hitting on. If you find out everything about the "subculture" of those girls you can corner the market if you also are rather fit and talkative. A sense of style and class is never a bad thing in this kind of activity.

And for a final word, will sleeping with 5 more random chicks give you anything? Maybe a "morale" and confidence boost. But those things are hollow. Search for inner strength instead of getting your confidence from someone else. The only other thing that is a perk is sexual experience, so when you meet the woman of yours dreams, you will make her very VERY satisfied whenever you please. :)

[Moonbear]

We should go back to the olden days when one could buy a wife, the only down side to that was if you did not get on she would have her kin folk carve you up for shark bait,
still that is a better fate than being nagged to death.
:rofl:

At one moment, women want to be equal to men and at other, they just want men to do everything for them ... :smile:

Did you read hypatia's and my replies here? None of that indicated having men do everything for us. In fact, if my boyfriend tried to do everything for me, he'd probably find the imprint of the bottom of my shoe on delicate parts of his anatomy. That doesn't mean that people can't do nice things for each other.

Of course, as others pointed out, if you're ONLY doing it to get sex, and not as part of a give-and-take relationship, then yeah, you get what you deserve, which is likely no sex. :biggrin: (I think that may be the way Cyrus is interpreting the list, as coming from the perspective of someone chasing after a date, not in the context of an existing relationship...I didn't make that assumption.) When just going out on first dates (or any of the first few dates), sure, I don't think it's right for men to pay for everything, and I don't let them. But, with a boyfriend, it's not at all the same situation. He can treat me to dinner if he wants, because he also doesn't object when I treat him. He has noticed that when I take him out to dinner, the waitperson inevitably hands him the check though. :grumpy: I've finally trained him to hand it over without a fuss when I've told him I'm treating (yeah, he always tried to pay for everything...I had to break him of that habit).

[WarPhalange]

I'll rewrite the list with exactly whats wrong with it, item for item.

I get that you mean "just to get someone in the sack", but you have to admit that all those things are good to have in general anyway.

[Cyrus]

Speaking on behalf of just myself, as a married man I honestly don't care what a woman brings to the table as long as there's good sex involved. I'm 25. I've been married for 5 years (we've been together for a little over 10yrs). I've been through all the motions of cuddling, arguing, spending time together, and all that garbage couples do. I'm tired of it. I don't care if my wife cooks, cleans, does laundry, or whatever for me since I can do all that myself. At this point in my life I want the sex, nothing more.

Well, I wouldnt want cooking, cleaning, laundry or other house stuff from a wife. Thats really not the point of having a wife, agreed? As for sex, you can get sex from women. She doesnt have to be your wife to have sex. If all you care about your wife is to have sex with her, I'd get a divorce before you get her pregnant.

Even married, I gotta jump through hoops just to make her happy like the time I had to take a bus at 2am to go 5miles away to get her some food she wanted. I'll admit I did that out of love but now that I think about it, it wasn't worth it.

You said you just want sex, but based on this I think shes the one screwing you. You're getting used, wow..........your jumping through hoops of fire.

I will never ever again spend money or time on any woman. I'm jaded. I'm so jaded, my standards have been lowered significantly. I'll go out with anything. I've played my cards correctly many times, I know this, but I still end up crashing and burning because men and women play different games with the same cards.

If you played them correctly, you wouldnt crash and burn many times.

[Cyrus]

I get that you mean "just to get someone in the sack", but you have to admit that all those things are good to have in general anyway.

No, I dont mean that. Sure, some of them are good to have. But you dont go around advertising them. Things like driving a nice car, being financially secure, etc. are things I do for myself and none of a womans business.

As far as she knows im a broke trash truck driving guy.

[Math Is Hard]

As far as she knows im a broke trash truck driving guy.

You should tell them you work for your father, who has a small junk/salvage business. :biggrin:

[Cyrus]

You should tell them you work for your father, who has a small junk/salvage business. :biggrin:

JUNK? This isnt JUNK! Oh no, I need to sit down its the big one!! <grabs chest>

[Math Is Hard]

JUNK? This isnt JUNK! Oh no, I need to sit down its the big one!! <grabs chest>
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Evo]

Speaking on behalf of just myself, as a married man I honestly don't care what a woman brings to the table as long as there's good sex involved. I'm 25. I've been married for 5 years (we've been together for a little over 10yrs). I've been through all the motions of cuddling, arguing, spending time together, and all that garbage couples do. I'm tired of it. I don't care if my wife cooks, cleans, does laundry, or whatever for me since I can do all that myself. At this point in my life I want the sex, nothing more.

Even married, I gotta jump through hoops just to make her happy like the time I had to take a bus at 2am to go 5miles away to get her some food she wanted. I'll admit I did that out of love but now that I think about it, it wasn't worth it.

I will never ever again spend money or time on any woman. I'm jaded. I'm so jaded, my standards have been lowered significantly. I'll go out with anything. I've played my cards correctly many times, I know this, but I still end up crashing and burning because men and women play different games with the same cards.

What the hell happened to the myth of "married men get it easily!"


~JSounds like you have a rotten marriage. Have you considered a divorce and getting out of this unhealthy relationship?

[DaleSpam]

I'm 25. I've been married for 5 years (we've been together for a little over 10yrs).Well, there's the problem right there. Assuming that she is about the same age as you then neither of you went through the normal process of growing up. You have never taken the time to figure out who you are so it isn't surprising that you didn't know what kind of woman you wanted.

[Evo]

Well, there's the problem right there. Assuming that she is about the same age as you then neither of you went through the normal process of growing up. You have never taken the time to figure out who you are so it isn't surprising that you didn't know what kind of woman you wanted.Good point Dale. Another issue is that a child of 15 is just starting to discover themselves and as they mature, their interests grow and change, their personality "changes/matures". It seems more likely that two people will mature at different rates and their interests will start to change, more often in different directions. The difference in someone at age 15 and age 25 is a lot more noticeable than someone at age 35 and age 45.

There is just a greater risk that two people that meet that young will grow apart due to changes in what they want and like.

[NeoDevin]

What ever happened to just being yourself, and finding someone who likes you for that, rather than trying to be what someone wants?

[moose]

- And countless other things men have to do to "mate."



Or you can find someone who isn't using you and actually wants you?

[turbo]

The inequalities in one's relationship with a significant other reflect what the partners want and/or are willing to put up with. Any relationship that is so poorly balanced in the give-and-take would not have survived what my wife and I went through early on, including chasing construction jobs all over the region, my working brutal hours (whenever overtime was offered) to try to save enough to build a down-payment on a house someday, the time when the wood-products mill that we both worked at was shut down and were were both unemployed at the same time, the very early losses of her father and my mother, etc.

When I was awarded the lead-operator's job on the world's first on-line sized, coated, and hot-roll-calendered high-speed paper machine, I knew what I was in for. Almost 4 months of 12+ hour days, every single day, without a day off. Most of the guys on that machine had never worked so much overtime or made that much money any time in their lives, and many of their wives spent every nickel they could get their hands on, started running around, and ended up divorcing the guys. The ones with children got to keep the house and the better vehicle, and when the judges looked at the money these guys were making (working 85-90 hours a week, generally), they usually slapped them with the most brutal child-support payments one could image - payments that would be impossible to meet once the paper machine start-up phase was over and we transitioned to 48-60 hours a week. Not only that, the fact that these guys worked rotating shifts guaranteed that they could not get custody of their kids, only visitation rights. Talk about misery! I never doubted that my wife and I would get through that period with our relationship intact, not just because we had experienced worse before, but because we we always rolled with the punches and the bad times drove us closer.

Is a relationship about what X will do to get financial security or Y will do to get sex or what Z will do to have a hot-looking mate (kind of like a living fashion accessory)? Sorry, that is a blueprint for a failed relationship.

[rootX]

Did you read hypatia's and my replies here? None of that indicated having men do everything for us. In fact, if my boyfriend tried to do everything for me, he'd probably find the imprint of the bottom of my shoe on delicate parts of his anatomy. That doesn't mean that people can't do nice things for each other.


Later, I realized both the op and the message I responded (also mine post too) are generalizing women behavior in relationships. I think op is assuming that women don't do much in return. I don't know how correct it is but someone also told me that I can ve sex with lots of women if I do all those things on the list ... :yuck:

[rootX]

Good point Dale. Another issue is that a child of 15 is just starting to discover themselves and as they mature, their interests grow and change, their personality "changes/matures". It seems more likely that two people will mature at different rates and their interests will start to change, more often in different directions. The difference in someone at age 15 and age 25 is a lot more noticeable than someone at age 35 and age 45.

There is just a greater risk that two people that meet that young will grow apart due to changes in what they want and like.


I always believed that more I grow, more I would be able to accommodate differences/ other people needs. It is true till now, I am far more tolerant towards the differences than I was before.

I totally agree with Turbo. People shouldn't always consider their own needs in the relationships - there should be lots of understanding, sacrifice, and trust. From my perspective, ideal relationship is giving all of myself to someone else - so, if someone wants me to do this every Tuesday and that every Sunday, I wouldn't have any objection. And, I shouldn't expect anything in return. I am good and safe from unhealthy relationships because I don't do anything on that list and neither try to show off that I am very good/attractive.

[Howers]

We're not really being fair to the ladies.
Females:
- Need to look very good.
- Keep weight down.
- Be sensitive and sweet.
- Cook, clean, chores.
- Ward off degrading propositions intimately ( I dont know how else to word it)
- Raise annoying kids.

This is a shallow list, but it is just as ridiculous as saying all men sing and write poetry.

[Cyrus]

I always believed that more I grow, more I would be able to accommodate differences/ other people needs. It is true till now, I am far more tolerant towards the differences than I was before.

I totally agree with Turbo. People shouldn't always consider their own needs in the relationships - there should be lots of understanding, sacrifice, and trust. From my perspective, ideal relationship is giving all of myself to someone else - so, if someone wants me to do this every Tuesday and that every Sunday, I wouldn't have any objection. And, I shouldn't expect anything in return. I am good and safe from unhealthy relationships because I don't do anything on that list and neither try to show off that I am very good/attractive.

Wow, I've never had someone openly say the want to be walked all over by their woman. I think you missed the point of the OP's complaint.

Its funny you think you're 'good and safe from unhealthy relationships' if you said what is underlined in the same breath. I dont know how you expect to meet women, or make friends that are guys by NOT trying to show off you are very good/attractive.

[GeorginaS]

We're not really being fair to the ladies.
Females:
- Need to look very good.
- Keep weight down.
- Be sensitive and sweet.
- Cook, clean, chores.
- Ward off degrading propositions intimately ( I dont know how else to word it)
- Raise annoying kids.

This is a shallow list, but it is just as ridiculous as saying all men sing and write poetry.

Maybe it wouldn't be so bad if women raised non-annoying kids. :wink:

[Moonbear]

Maybe it wouldn't be so bad if women raised non-annoying kids. :wink:

Where's the check box on the order form for non-annoying ones? I need to make sure I don't miss it! :biggrin:

[rootX]

Wow, I've never had someone openly say the want to be walked all over by their woman. I think you missed the point of the OP's complaint.

I was talking about the ideal one and long term relationships. Anyways, I think we are very good at hating /find faults in others. So, he shouldn't think about divorcing his wife for tiny things. Things can get worse, if he doesn't give in/try to be more tolerant because smaller differences can grow larger over time. Sh*t happens everywhere. It is essential to make some sacrifices in long term relationships.


Its funny you think you're 'good and safe from unhealthy relationships' if you said what is underlined in the same breath. I dont know how you expect to meet women, or make friends that are guys by NOT trying to show off you are very good/attractive.


It's very hard to make friends/get women if I don't show off (maybe 2-4 women over entire life and 1 new friend per 4-5 year). But, all friends/relationships I made that way, are there forever. I have never argued with them nor ever hated them. It's very close to ideal :rolleyes:. And, it also prevents people, who are not good for me, from developing personal relationships with me (which makes me safe).

[G01]

Speaking on behalf of just myself, as a married man I honestly don't care what a woman brings to the table as long as there's good sex involved. I'm 25. I've been married for 5 years (we've been together for a little over 10yrs). I've been through all the motions of cuddling, arguing, spending time together, and all that garbage couples do. I'm tired of it. I don't care if my wife cooks, cleans, does laundry, or whatever for me since I can do all that myself. At this point in my life I want the sex, nothing more.

Well, I have never been married, but it is my impression that if all you want is sex, then your not looking for marriage and that is probably why you are jaded and bitter. It sounds to me like you got married before you even knew what marriage was about.

Also, as far as I am aware (correct me if I'm wrong married folk), but marriage also isn't about having a woman cook and clean for you. If that is what someone wants they should hire a maid and butler (or if they can only afford one- a "mutler":biggrin:)

I think you need to sit down with yourself and figure out what marriage is. Then you need to decide if you want marriage at this point. It sounds to me like you don't.

[Jordan Joab]

Hmm I was unfair in the OP. Women do have to do unnecessary stuff too. I still think when it comes to sex, men do have to jump through more hoops than women.

As far as my marriage goes, i'm actually married to a great woman that wants to be with me because of who I am. My problem is that she's too conservative for me. Feels like my mother:eek:


~J

[DaveC426913]

Hmmmm, the last guy I dated just said "my name is.... google me". After 3 hours of reading about him, I was putty in his hands.


Wow. A man's pick up line is "Google me" and it works. I don't know what he does but it must be interesting enough that I want to meet him.

[Evo]

Wow. A man's pick up line is "Google me" and it works. I don't know what he does but it must be interesting enough that I want to meet him.Yeah, you would, he's that interesting. :smile: Many people on this forum have at least heard of the incident that he's at the core of.

[DaleSpam]

As far as my marriage goes, i'm actually married to a great woman that wants to be with me because of who I am. My problem is that she's too conservative for me. Feels like my mother:eek:Good to know that Oedipus is still alive and well!

Seriously Jordan, try to look at this from your wife's perspective. How sexy do you think it makes her feel towards you that you think of her like your mother (and therefore for her to probably think of you as a boy)? And don't claim that you never told her how you feel, after 10 years she knows.

Given the dynamic you have expressed here, the list you put in the OP is not a list of romantic ideas but a list of chores: you expect to be given your sexual allowance for doing your sexual chores. How can that do anything other than confuse her? She is probably (hopefully) having trouble reconciling feeling sexy towards you with feeling motherly towards you.

[Math Is Hard]

Hmm I was unfair in the OP. Women do have to do unnecessary stuff too. I still think when it comes to sex, men do have to jump through more hoops than women.

As far as my marriage goes, i'm actually married to a great woman that wants to be with me because of who I am. My problem is that she's too conservative for me. Feels like my mother:eek:


~J

Have you talked to her about how you feel? I don't mean the "mother" thing, necessarily, but have you told her that you're unhappy because you want more sex, and that you feel like you're having to jump through hoops just to get any at all?

[BobG]

Men

- Take her out to dinner.
- Make her feel special.
- Get job/house/car/career/etc.
- Write poems.
- Write/sing/play songs and instruments.
- get special skills.
- Stand out from the crowd.
- Financial security.
- And countless other things men have to do to "mate."

In the end, sex not guaranteed.

Women

"I'm in the mood tonight."

Sex guaranteed.


Why doesn't this happen to me?:cry:

http://www.geocities.com/area51/shadowlands/6583/et051.html

So....if I tell her I'm an alien, she'll do me? Why didn't anyone tell me this before?!??!

Telling her you're an alien only satisfies the "Stand out from the crowd" part. You still have to take her out to dinner, make her feel special, and write poems, and play an instrument.

Admittedly, the "alien culture" thing gives you a little bit of a pass in that it helps to explain away the fact that your poems and songs are so horridly bad. It also gives you a pass on owning a house and car or having a job since you haven't been on Earth long enough to acquire those sorts of things.

The "special skills" part gets a lot more challenging if you claim to be an alien. You're expected to do something really spectacular, like raise animals from the dead. Ressurecting a "dead" housefly sometimes works. If you freeze a live housefly, you can usually restore it to conciousness just by thawing it out.

[LightbulbSun]

Blah, I hate all of this contrived ********. Just be yourself, and if you oppose doing something then stand pat. For christ sake, do we lose all of our individuality when we're in a relationship? Are we this sterile that we have to formulate on how to get sex?

[rewebster]

Hmmmm, the last guy I dated just said "my name is.... google me". After 3 hours of reading about him, I was putty in his hands.

ok guys---there's your challenge


(:rolleyes:rules quite a few of "us" out probably :smile:)

[rewebster]

The nice 'thing' about it all, to me, is that if a man or woman is looking for 'this' or 'that' , or 'this AND that', or whatever, there one of the opposite sex to match the same attitude. From men that want just big boobs, there's women out there that present 'them' as their main and almost only attribute(s). Women who wants a man with a big (XXXXXX), we men will keep presenting ourselves til the woman says, "OMG, it's him.. he's the one with the BIG (XXXXXX)---I CAN'T ask for MORE!!!"


I really find this one woman funny--she wanted a long haired tall man with native American looks---she told me she had found three 'but' they all drank too much she found out after some time with each.

[Moonbear]

Yeah, you would, he's that interesting. :smile: Many people on this forum have at least heard of the incident that he's at the core of.

Someone at the core of an "incident?" Sounds like a perfect match for Evo! :biggrin:

[rewebster]

Someone at the core of an "incident?" Sounds like a perfect match for Evo! :biggrin:

was there a thread about all of this? (before my time?)

[Moonbear]

was there a thread about all of this? (before my time?)

I don't think so. I don't know who she's talking about either.

[Math Is Hard]

I don't think so. I don't know who she's talking about either.

I think that was when Evo met the Unibomber. :biggrin:

[DaveC426913]

I assumed she was talking about that speaker guy she had a crush on last year.

[rewebster]

I assumed she was talking about that speaker guy she had a crush on last year.

do you mean D2 ?-----hmmm, that doesn't match up.....maybe she didn't talk about it for some reason or another in any of the threads..... (one of those (very) <secret> things----<shhhhhhhhhhhhh...>)

[whitay]

I don't understand the OP. If that's what women want/expect from you then I would expect the equivalent in return and if you are no expecting nothing in return then you are simply being played by these women. Your hindsight should tell you that this is no fun and isn't worth your time.

The inequality between men and women is unfortunately apparent every where. I remember in high school sports classes, girls only had to do so much compared to the boys to achieve the same marks. I never seen the point in that and was essentially grounded in the fundamentals of us students that women where physically weaker than men which is in some instances not true. I cannot remember if there was more in other classes or at an earlier stage however I feel that it is possible that inequality is embedded as young children and carries through on into adulthood.

I am not one to speak of relationships as I have never had a girlfriend myself. However what I will say is that at no point would I embark in a relationship with someone when there was nothing I could learn from her (at my age this doesn't seem to be quite the attribute just yet but is in the older women I meet) and that what it is that I choose to do wasn't a concern and vice versa and that expectations weren't present because of the possible swaying from expectations to demands. Also I see financial burdens to be a simple unhealthy hazard, especially when it is only the one partner with the issue and relies on the other.

I don't understand why the women and men are saying that they need to be able to cook, clean, iron, wash and what not. These are simple essentials in daily life and although they consume a good proportion of time which I would rather spend reading or doing some else, I have no choice. I would say that they are no criteria but a simple fundamental such as communication.

[DaveC426913]

I don't understand why the women and men are saying that they need to be able to cook, clean, iron, wash and what not. These are simple essentials in daily life and although they consume a good proportion of time which I would rather spend reading or doing some else, I have no choice.Attending to one's regular chores is a sign of maturity. Or, more accurately, not attending to one's chores is a sign of immaturity or something else. If a potential mate cannot or does not handle the basics, it should set off alarm bells and it warrants scrutiny.

As you say, a fundamental.

[Redbelly98]

Another inequality: for the most part, men don't worry if a woman they're interested in just might turn out to be a stalker or other weirdo.

[Math Is Hard]

Another inequality: for the most part, men don't worry if a woman they're interested in just might turn out to be a stalker or other weirdo.

Maybe they should..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZN-jV8Ax4cU

:surprised

[rewebster]

Another inequality: for the most part, men don't worry if a woman they're interested in just might turn out to be a stalker or other weirdo.


yeah well--I had one and it wasn't fun---bad to the point of her calling me at work so much that the boss called me to the office, her waiting at my car and my apartment---bad, just bad

[Jordan Joab]

I wouldn't say everything I've put into my marriage has been all for sex but I'd be lying if I said I didn't do X trying to get it.

I'm not sure exactly what I'm experiencing presently. One of the factors might be that I've only been sexually involved with 4 women in my life and relationship-wise with less than 10 and in most of those cases they seemed to approach me first. I don't think I've ever dealt with rejection like other guys do. No clue really.


~J

[TheStatutoryApe]

The girls I have dated rarely ever did much of anything for me. They were mostly so preoccupied with wanting to be treated right that they never gave much mind to treating me right. The vast majority of women I have met were like this. Obviously all he really wants is sex right?

Another inequality: for the most part, men don't worry if a woman they're interested in just might turn out to be a stalker or other weirdo.

I've met plenty of guys who have wound up the target of the attentions of a crazy woman. I personally once had a girl I met show up the next day at my work telling everyone that she was my girlfriend. All I did was kiss her.

[DaveC426913]

The girls I have dated rarely ever did much of anything for me. They were mostly so preoccupied with wanting to be treated right that they never gave much mind to treating me right. The vast majority of women I have met were like this.How do you end up going on a date with a woman if you sense this? Do you make a habit of blind dates?

Personally, I tend to know the women and then decide to date them. I date them because I like them, not the other way 'round.

[LightbulbSun]

These lyrics will help the OP:

Run away, run away, run away
Run away, run away, run away
Just one second, and I was left with nothing
Her fragrance still pulsates through damp air
That day came to an end
And she had lost in me, her credence

[TheStatutoryApe]

How do you end up going on a date with a woman if you sense this? Do you make a habit of blind dates?

Personally, I tend to know the women and then decide to date them. I date them because I like them, not the other way 'round.

People often represent themselves differently on dates and such than what they are really like in your average day to day situation. One of the things that have happened to me often is the woman who says that they always did all of these great things for their exs and they never returned the favour but when I do those things for her she does not return the favour.

I had a girlfriend who stated that she loved to read but during the time we dated she never read a single book, not even the one I gave her as a present.

I dated a girl that said she loves to take care of her man but what she really meant was that she wants her man to suffer through what ever it is she feels like doing 'for him' whether he likes it or not.

[Cyrus]

People often represent themselves differently on dates and such than what they are really like in your average day to day situation. One of the things that have happened to me often is the woman who says that they always did all of these great things for their exs and they never returned the favour but when I do those things for her she does not return the favour.

I had a girlfriend who stated that she loved to read but during the time we dated she never read a single book, not even the one I gave her as a present.

I dated a girl that said she loves to take care of her man but what she really meant was that she wants her man to suffer through what ever it is she feels like doing 'for him' whether he likes it or not.

Im just curious, what great things did you do for her? (You dont have to say if you dont want to though.)

[TheStatutoryApe]

Im just curious, what great things did you do for her? (You dont have to say if you dont want to though.)

Took them places. Gave them back rubs. Cooked for them. Ect. And then there are the ever popular sexual favours that many women complain they never receive no matter how much they do said favour for their partners. Then they often stop doing those favours since they never liked doing them anyway and now they are getting what they want.

From what I have seen it seems that it is likely much easier to get what you want from the average woman if you don't do much for her in the first place. apparently you need to make them feel like you might leave them any time and so they need to work to keep you. I actually had an ex tell me that I should never have told her that she didn't have to worry about me cheating or leaving her because she suddenly felt like there was no longer any point to doing anything for me. Not that she had been doing much to begin with.

[Cyrus]

Took them places. Gave them back rubs. Cooked for them. Ect. And then there are the ever popular sexual favours that many women complain they never receive no matter how much they do said favour for their partners. Then they often stop doing those favours since they never liked doing them anyway and now they are getting what they want.

From what I have seen it seems that it is likely much easier to get what you want from the average woman if you don't do much for her in the first place. apparently you need to make them feel like you might leave them any time and so they need to work to keep you. I actually had an ex tell me that I should never have told her that she didn't have to worry about me cheating or leaving her because she suddenly felt like there was no longer any point to doing anything for me. Not that she had been doing much to begin with.

Wow, why would you tell her that? My policy is I dont do anything for a girl unless she does something for me first. Then I'll do something for her. Repeat this cycle, forever. If she asks me for something but has not done something herself, I'll just say ummmmmmm no. Its funny becuase most people are not used to getting a direct no by someone else saying it with a straight face. It's very effective becasuse then the person will look/feel stupid because its obvious to both of you that they got caught trying to using you. They will try to recover by being nice to you after that because they dont want to appear like someone that uses other people, even though 9 times out of 10 they are full of you know what and actually do try to use other people.

Basically, what you said in bold is correct. For me, its not so much as I would make her feel that way, but that I actually would leave her if someone better caught my attention.

[TheStatutoryApe]

Wow, why would you tell her that? My policy is I dont do anything for a girl unless she does something for me first. Then I'll do something for her. Repeat this cycle, forever. If she asks me for something but has not done something herself, I'll just say ummmmmmm no. Its funny becuase most people are not used to getting a direct no by someone else saying it with a straight face. It's very effective becasuse then the person will look/feel stupid because its obvious to both of you that they got caught trying to using you. They will try to recover by being nice to you after that because they dont want to appear like someone that uses other people, even though 9 times out of 10 they are full of you know what and actually do try to use other people.

Basically, what you said in bold is correct. For me, its not so much as I would make her feel that way, but that I actually would leave her if someone better caught my attention.

I told her that because she was worried that I was more interested in a friend of mine than her. I was in love with her and had no intentions of leaving. I was too blinded at the time by the rosy tinted love goggles to pay attention to the fact that she did not seem to value me very highly. She just told me she did and gave me affection and everything was fine, in my head anyway.

At any rate I don't like the idea of keeping score but at the same time its hard not to notice when someone has much higher expectations of you than they feel you should have of them. I'd like to find someone who does things for me because she likes to and not just because she feels obligated to. Someone who cares about me and values me as something more than just a means of getting what they want. That would be nice.

[Cyrus]

I told her that because she was worried that I was more interested in a friend of mine than her. I was in love with her and had no intentions of leaving. I was too blinded at the time by the rosy tinted love goggles to pay attention to the fact that she did not seem to value me very highly. She just told me she did and gave me affection and everything was fine, in my head anyway.

At any rate I don't like the idea of keeping score but at the same time its hard not to notice when someone has much higher expectations of you than they feel you should have of them. I'd like to find someone who does things for me because she likes to and not just because she feels obligated to. Someone who cares about me and values me as something more than just a means of getting what they want. That would be nice.

Bla, insecurity in a woman is a huge turn-off for me. When girls try to pull that kind of crap I tell them exactly what they dont want to hear. Does this make me look fat? Yes. Are my eyes pretty? No. Don't ask me these stupid questions...they have no point and are signs of insecurity. Now, she should stop and think: if you were fat or had ugly eyes do you really think I'd be sitting here spending my time with you? No, I wouldnt.

Well, no one likes to keep score. But then again, unless you want to be used you better keep mental note. I wouldnt know about the expecations though, because usually I'm the one with much, much higher expecations and I make them very clear. Well, people do go out of their way and do nice things for others, but thats usually after they get to know them pretty well and have determined this person is worth going out of their way. But the key is they have to know you pretty well. If all she knows is that you will run through hoops for her all day long, she ant gonna do squat from the goodness of her heart for you -ever.

[neu]

Bla, insecurity in a woman is a huge turn-off for me. When girls try to pull that kind of crap I tell them exactly what they dont want to hear. Does this make me look fat? Yes. Are my eyes pretty? No. Don't ask me these stupid questions...they have no point and are signs of insecurity. Now, she should stop and think: if you were fat or had ugly eyes do you really think I'd be sitting here spending my time with you? No, I wouldnt.

Are you single?

[Moonbear]

From what I have seen it seems that it is likely much easier to get what you want from the average woman if you don't do much for her in the first place. apparently you need to make them feel like you might leave them any time and so they need to work to keep you.
Only if you're into dating insecure psychos. If they're only doing things to cling and keep you from wandering off, do both of you a favor and leave. Relationships formed on a premise of threats of leaving aren't healthy relationships, they're a form of psychological manipulation/abuse, and it only works on the insecure.


I actually had an ex tell me that I should never have told her that she didn't have to worry about me cheating or leaving her because she suddenly felt like there was no longer any point to doing anything for me. Not that she had been doing much to begin with.

First off, good that she's an ex, because by that behavior she should be an ex. Second, I bolded a key sentence there. It's not that she was no longer motivated to do anything for you, it's that she never did anything in the first place, and was just finding excuses for it.

If you're keeping score or waiting for the other person to make a move before you make a move, play chess, don't date. A relationship should be more like the way you interact with best friends, just more so. If you go out with your friends for a meal, do you pull out your calculators and divide up the cost to the penny and keep track of each favor they do for you so you know exactly how many favors to do for them in return? No (or at least I sure hope not). Rather, you have a general sense that there is give and take. My friends will sometimes pick up the tab for a meal for me, and if I offer to pay, the usual response is, "Don't worry about it, you can pick up the tab another time." And I do. I don't go counting pennies and make sure we're dollar-for-dollar matching what tabs we pick up. I do have a sense that over time, it's fairly even (i.e., they aren't just buying cheap sandwiches for lunch while I'm buying the expensive dinners in fancy restaurants)...well, with an exception of some who I know just don't earn so much, so if I want to go to a fancy restaurant, I know they can't really afford it, so I'll pick up their costs there so that I can sometimes eat at the restaurants I most enjoy with their company. In exchange, they might do a favor that doesn't cost anything but time (i.e., watering my plants when I'm away).

If you find yourself constantly keeping track of who pays for what, or what favors are exchanged for what, then consider that there is something wrong...either you're already getting that general sense of imbalance, all take and no give, or there's some lack of trust, or you're just not clicking so you don't feel like doing anything special for that person.

If you're doing things with an expectation of payment with something else done in return, you don't have a relationship either, you have a business arrangement. If you're only helping out with chores when you want sex, don't be surprised if she senses that and finds it aggravating. As someone else mentioned earlier in the thread, it's like sex becomes your allowance, nothing more than a pat on the head for being a good boy. If a marriage has degraded to the point where sex is something exchanged for chores, then there's something very wrong with the relationship. If you're not doing things for one another simply because you appreciate each other being there, then there's a problem. I also have an issue with adults thinking chores should be rewarded with ANYTHING, or that one person is exempt from them unless they get something in return. Chores are necessities. Adults just do them because they need to get done. They aren't tokens to trade for sexual favors. And, if you never do chores if you're not in the mood for sex, more often than not, your "partner" is going to spend a lot more time frustrated and annoyed with you for not pulling your weight. One day of doing the dishes and taking out the trash won't fix that.

[DaveC426913]

If you're keeping score ... play chess, don't date.

Hear hear.


And if you're in a relationship where you're tempted to keep score, either communicate or get out. You guys sound like you've been in unhealthy relationships long enough to get tainted with them.

[rewebster]

Excellent post, MB---


Also, with that ---those that 'keep score' or wait for the other one 'to do something' are also usually somewhat insecure themselves, in that they usually don't feel secure enough in themselves that they will feel cheated and hurt if the 'game' ends and they're 'down' one or two points.

Everyone is usually insecure in some area or another, either from inexperience or from something in their past that makes them that way--and then add in *hormones* <yippee>--then things can really strange/wild/interesting/great/horrible/etc.


When you are looking out from/'for yourself' more than for the other person, that's usually coming from your/the 'survival' mode--and if, what you're 'thinking' is more on the line of "I want a woman / (man) with....... (/or, that does this for me, or he/she already has xxxxx, and that's what I want)........"-----I have never seen one of those relations last, or last very long.

There are a lot of 'names' that identify people with 'needing' something (a little different) on both sexes to fill their insecurities---from 'he wants a slave' to 'she's a groupie'.

Insecurities aren't always bad--unless they're effecting your life in some detrimental way.


http://chiron.valdosta.edu/whuitt/col/regsys/maslow.gif

http://chiron.valdosta.edu/whuitt/col/regsys/maslow.html

[rewebster]

And---people bounce from one level to the next---'asking a question' may put you up in the 'need to know' level, but in the next second, you may say to yourself, 'I'm thirsty' which puts you down in the 'physiological needs' level.

It's the 'general' aspects of one's life that sort of assigns someone to a certain level. A 'mountain man' , depending on what his specific 'thinking' is, may keep him at the 'safety needs' level on the general view, movie stars may be thought of at the 'esteem needs' level, scientists at the IAS (http://www.ias.edu/) are given the chance to try to stay in the 'need to know, understand' level (and above).

[Cyrus]

Are you single?

Sorry, you're not pretty enough for me neu. :wink:

[Cyrus]

If you're keeping score or waiting for the other person to make a move before you make a move, play chess, don't date. A relationship should be more like the way you interact with best friends, just more so. If you go out with your friends for a meal, do you pull out your calculators and divide up the cost to the penny and keep track of each favor they do for you so you know exactly how many favors to do for them in return? No (or at least I sure hope not).

To a certain extent, yes. When we go out we always split the bill to exactly what we ate. So if the bill is $100, and I ate $15, I'll put in $18-19 to include my share of the tip. And my friends will do likewise. If my friend doesnt have any cash on him at the time, then I'll cover for him. But usually the next time we go out he pays for my lunch. But again, its usually me, him, me, him, me him. Not him, him, him ....THEN me. In terms of order.


Rather, you have a general sense that there is give and take. My friends will sometimes pick up the tab for a meal for me, and if I offer to pay, the usual response is, "Don't worry about it, you can pick up the tab another time." And I do.

No, I never do that with my friends. It's always, how much is my portion of the bill? None of us say, "oh, I'll pay for this one guys."
I really dont understand why any of us should either. Were all grown adults who can pay for ourselves. Usually when we go out its 3 of us, sometimes as large as 6-7. No way is any of us going to pick up that kind of bill thats over $100.00.

[JasonRox]

I'll rewrite the list with exactly whats wrong with it, item for item.

Men

- Get job/house/car/career/etc.

I tell every girl I meet at a bar that I drive a trash truck. Its none of their damn business how much money I make, how big my house is, or what kind of car I drive.


So you lie?

Just don't answer the question or ask her why she's asking you such a question. The closest thing to a lie will say about myself is...

The one night at the bar a girl I met had lots of tattoos and told me she had 15. (Very attractive by the way.) Then she asked me if I had any, I just responded. "I have no tattoos... well actually, I have one but you'll have to find it. :wink:"

Note: I do lie about my name sometimes if I'm not interested at all. I've had too many people adding me on Facebook that I don't know. Or even sometimes if I drank too much, I tell them where I work and they come to my work. (Seriously, I hate it.)

Other than that, I don't lie about myself or my intentions. If I want to just have fun, I will tell them straight up if they ask. I don't play games.

[JasonRox]

To a certain extent, yes. When we go out we always split the bill to exactly what we ate. So if the bill is $100, and I ate $15, I'll put in $18-19 to include my share of the tip. And my friends will do likewise. If my friend doesnt have any cash on him at the time, then I'll cover for him. But usually the next time we go out he pays for my lunch. But again, its usually me, him, me, him, me him. Not him, him, him ....THEN me. In terms of order.




No, I never do that with my friends. It's always, how much is my portion of the bill? None of us say, "oh, I'll pay for this one guys."
I really dont understand why any of us should either. Were all grown adults who can pay for ourselves. Usually when we go out its 3 of us, sometimes as large as 6-7. No way is any of us going to pick up that kind of bill thats over $100.00.

I've paid for friends. I don't say anything like... "You can cover me next time."

If you're going to keep track of how much is being spent, then don't bother and just split accordingly. I don't buy gifts for birthday's, christmas or any particular event, but I do generous things. I don't need too. You have to realize that I'm not doing it to be nice or friendly. I just do it.

Note: Don't remember paying for a girl though.

[Cyrus]

So you lie?

Just don't answer the question or ask her why she's asking you such a question. The closest thing to a lie will say about myself is...

The one night at the bar a girl I met had lots of tattoos and told me she had 15. (Very attractive by the way.) Then she asked me if I had any, I just responded. "I have no tattoos... well actually, I have one but you'll have to find it. :wink:"

Note: I do lie about my name sometimes if I'm not interested at all. I've had too many people adding me on Facebook that I don't know. Or even sometimes if I drank too much, I tell them where I work and they come to my work. (Seriously, I hate it.)

Other than that, I don't lie about myself or my intentions. If I want to just have fun, I will tell them straight up if they ask. I don't play games.

Its mostly for my own personal enjoyment. I love seeing the look on their face when I tell them I'm a trash man. Eventually I tell them I'm a grad student, but thats usually after they catch on that I've been telling them one BS story after another. After a while they realize, wait a minute............hes been telling me nothing but crap this whole time. Then they REALLY want to know what I actually do. Its pretty fun, you should try it sometime. But I never tell them the first time they ask me what I really do. I like to judge their character by seeing their reaction to me being a trash man first.

I never lie about myself though.

[Cyrus]

I've paid for friends. I don't say anything like... "You can cover me next time."

If you're going to keep track of how much is being spent, then don't bother and just split accordingly. I don't buy gifts for birthday's, christmas or any particular event, but I do generous things. I don't need too. You have to realize that I'm not doing it to be nice or friendly. I just do it.

Note: Don't remember paying for a girl though.

Yeah, I dont buy gifts either...and I really dont like people buying me a gift for my birthday. I dont see the point in buying something for someone as a sign of friendship. "Hi, im materialistic. I bought this for you! :smile: "

[JasonRox]

Its mostly for my own personal enjoyment. I love seeing the look on their face when I tell them I'm a trash man. Eventually I tell them I'm a grad student, but thats usually after they catch on that I've been telling them one BS story after another. After a while they realize, wait a minute............hes been telling me nothing but crap this whole time. Then they REALLY want to know what I actually do. Its pretty fun, you should try it sometime. But I never tell them the first time they ask me what I really do. I like to judge their character by seeing their reaction to me being a trash man first.

I never lie about myself though.

That's actually pretty interesting. I'm not sure exactly what I do. I guess I'm a teaser sometimes. I can be a huge flirt. Not quite sure actually. I don't focus on the girl either.

That girl with the tattoos said she was going to give her number to me and I was like... "Sounds good. Let's go dance." Then I left to hang out with my friends. She came to find me before leaving to give me her number. Haha, my friends were like... what the?

Also, I don't give my number out. I only take numbers. If the girl also only takes numbers, then I basically just say... "That's too bad because you're not getting mine." By doing this, you decide whether you want to see her or not.

[Cyrus]

That's actually pretty interesting. I'm not sure exactly what I do. I guess I'm a teaser sometimes. I can be a huge flirt. Not quite sure actually. I don't focus on the girl either.

That girl with the tattoos said she was going to give her number to me and I was like... "Sounds good. Let's go dance." Then I left to hang out with my friends. She came to find me before leaving to give me her number. Haha, my friends were like... what the?

Also, I don't give my number out. I only take numbers. If the girl also only takes numbers, then I basically just say... "That's too bad because you're not getting mine." By doing this, you decide whether you want to see her or not.

Im opposite. I give her my number and tell her, "im not going to call you, so if you want to talk to me you're going to have to call me".

[JasonRox]

Yeah, I dont buy gifts either...and I really dont like people buying me a gift for my birthday. I dont see the point in buying something for someone as a sign of friendship. "Hi, im materialistic. I bought this for you! :smile: "

Yeah, it's really annoying. I also don't buy for family though.

People are very materialistic. Even some guys, if they spot a girl, they will be like... she's mine. But then if you end up getting her number or she likes you, you're buddy gets mad and says... "She's mine man, don't be a jackass." As if he owns her or something.

Note: I no longer have friends like that; I left those friends years ago. My confidence around girls and within myself or anything in general has got so much better with friends like that around. Most of all my friends all females (maybe except 3-4) and that's basically something most guys dream of in high school and college. The problem is that people cling before even meeting the person (like I explained to earlier with my past friends).

[JasonRox]

Im opposite. I give her my number and tell her, "im not going to call you, so if you want to talk to me you're going to have to call me".

No way, some of them call when you don't want them to. It worked well sometimes because I always said... (Say it's Friday night.) "Call me Sunday night." I hated it when they called me for Saturday night. Or Saturday morning!!!

Both has it's up and downs. I guess it depends how I feel. (To be honest, nothing I do is planned.)

[Jordan Joab]

Im opposite. I give her my number and tell her, "im not going to call you, so if you want to talk to me you're going to have to call me".

I'd bet about 1 out of 10 call you :rofl:


~J

[Moonbear]

I'd bet about 1 out of 10 call you :rofl:

You'd bet that good of odds? I was wondering if he ever gets a call. I mean, when you tell her, "I'm not going to call you..." that sounds a lot like, "I'm not interested, get lost." Probably only the weirdos who don't get the hint would call. :rolleyes:

[rewebster]

You'd bet that good of odds? I was wondering if he ever gets a call. I mean, when you tell her, "I'm not going to call you..." that sounds a lot like, "I'm not interested, get lost." Probably only the weirdos who don't get the hint would call. :rolleyes:

do you mean desparate, and insecure of why they were rejected?

[Cyrus]

I'd bet about 1 out of 10 call you :rofl:


~J

Not only did she call me, she invited me to see a band the next night and paid for my ticket.

[Cyrus]

You'd bet that good of odds? I was wondering if he ever gets a call. I mean, when you tell her, "I'm not going to call you..." that sounds a lot like, "I'm not interested, get lost." Probably only the weirdos who don't get the hint would call. :rolleyes:

Thats because you dont know the situational context, and the way I say these things. Do you really think im in a girls face saying, "IM NOT GOING TO CALL YOU".....come on guys, lets be reasonable here.

It seems you all have never heard of playing hard to get?

I know its hard to believe, but I know what Im doing. Also, keep in mind the area were talking about. I dont know how the people are in west virginia, or any other part of the country you're from. But here in washington dc, if you try to talk and act nice to a girl at a bar scene, you're going to get blown away so fast you wont know what hit you. OR, she'll just use you for some free drinks and then toss you away. I see it happen alllllllll the time. What may seem 'extreme' to you, is normal to me, and for good reason.

All of this depends on the person Im talking to at the time. You have to gauge how much you can get away with, how 'nice' you have to be to her. Some girls you just cant be nice to. Others you can be nice to. It depends on how they interact with you during the conversation, body language, the subject of the conversation.

For example, I'll even say, 'this conversation is going no where, talk about something else that isnt so boring'....they laugh and say yeah, you're right and we talk about something else. I've never had anyone get bent out of shape. I think you guys read statements I make above as, 'HEY YOU, CHANGE THIS GOD DAMN TOPIC NOW', when thats not at all how it sounds when I say it to you in person.

[whitay]

Why are you playing games with these girls?

If I was a girl, I'd appreciate someone open, honest and upfront.

[Jordan Joab]

Why are you playing games with these girls?

If I was a girl, I'd appreciate someone open, honest and upfront.


He is right in some aspects. You can't be nice to certain women, you don't want to tell that chick your income, you can't hold the door for this girl, etc. I see relationships as "hit or miss."

What irks me is the double standard on honesty/openness many women have. You need to tell them where you are but if you ask them where they are going you are "not letting her breathe." My personal favorite is when you go out to buy junk food and the wife/girlfriend tells you she wants "whatever" well you bring "whatever" and they get mad at you.:confused: How about specifying what you want? I'm not a damn psychic, I don't know what your brain wants to eat at all times!

This is one of the many reasons if I get divorced I will never marry again. I'll probably try to knock out a lawyer/doctor type chick to have at least 1 kid but other than marriage only needs to be experienced once.


~J

[whitay]

Moonbear and Evo, do either of you do any of these things that the others have mentioned?

In asking this I am not saying that I don't believe there are such females but what I do know is that I have many friends who arn't like this, in the slightest. And on the other hand I have quite a few friends are the epitome of what you have said. These behaviors are prevalent due to simple day to day interactions.

Knocking her out probably isn't the best idea (I think it's a crime, in most countries) but I know what you wanted to say. If this is what you expect then I am sure this is how it will be for you. If that is what you want?

[Cyrus]

Why are you playing games with these girls?

If I was a girl, I'd appreciate someone open, honest and upfront.

No, if you were a girl and met someone open honest and upfront you'd be bored out of your mind with that guy in five minutes (I'm talking about someone you just met).

[Jordan Joab]

Moonbear and Evo, do either of you do any of these things that the others have mentioned?

In asking this I am not saying that I don't believe there are such females but what I do know is that I have many friends who arn't like this, in the slightest. And on the other hand I have quite a few friends are the epitome of what you have said. These behaviors are prevalent due to simple day to day interactions.

Knocking her out probably isn't the best idea (I think it's a crime, in most countries) but I know what you wanted to say. If this is what you expect then I am sure this is how it will be for you. If that is what you want?

My comment came out wrong. What I meant to say was, that I would try to find a doctor/lawyer interested in having a child. I simply wouldn't marry the woman. I would live with her but I wouldn't marry her.


~J

[Jordan Joab]

Moonbear and Evo, do either of you do any of these things that the others have mentioned?

In asking this I am not saying that I don't believe there are such females but what I do know is that I have many friends who arn't like this, in the slightest. And on the other hand I have quite a few friends are the epitome of what you have said. These behaviors are prevalent due to simple day to day interactions.

Knocking her out probably isn't the best idea (I think it's a crime, in most countries) but I know what you wanted to say. If this is what you expect then I am sure this is how it will be for you. If that is what you want?

My comment came out wrong. What I meant to say was, that I would try to find a doctor/lawyer interested in having a child. I simply wouldn't marry the woman. I would live with her but I wouldn't marry her.

and yes, it is what I would want. I'm not giving my freedom away, ever.

~J

[whitay]

My comment came out wrong. What I meant to say was, that I would try to find a doctor/lawyer interested in having a child. I simply wouldn't marry the woman. I would live with her but I wouldn't marry her.

and yes, it is what I would want. I'm not giving my freedom away, ever.

~J

Ahh I see what you mean. I personally don't believe in marriage either but for other reasons. Simply what does my love for another have to do with God, Jesus and all other innards of religion? And what gives religion the right to sanction marriage over a the workings of a defacto relationship. I don't think the intention of marriage is to constrain but I do think people feel more constrained and obligated when married. But what would I know.

[TheStatutoryApe]

Only if you're into dating insecure psychos. If they're only doing things to cling and keep you from wandering off, do both of you a favor and leave. Relationships formed on a premise of threats of leaving aren't healthy relationships, they're a form of psychological manipulation/abuse, and it only works on the insecure.
Women must be made different where you come from. Have you seriously never noticed that just about every other woman you meet is [or has been] in a relationship where their partner treated them like crap or were indifferent towards them yet they stayed in the relationship anyway and did things for him all the time? And most men do this on a smaller scale so that you would likely not realize it at first. In various small ways they implant the suggestion in their partners head that they better be good or he just might not be around any more.

First off, good that she's an ex, because by that behavior she should be an ex. Second, I bolded a key sentence there. It's not that she was no longer motivated to do anything for you, it's that she never did anything in the first place, and was just finding excuses for it.
She did things. It was just rare and mostly lame. At least twice that I knew of she decided to randomly buy something for me as a gift then afterwards wondered why she bought it since it was not anything I would like and returned it. Anyway.. all of this had an underlying cause. She just wasn't interested but kept lying to herself and believing that she was.


And I'm not sure if you missed it or just were not responding to me but I don't keep score. But like I said its really hard to not notice when someone is not reciprocating in a manner that would suggest they are actually interested in you and care about you.

[Jordan Joab]

Ahh I see what you mean. I personally don't believe in marriage either but for other reasons. Simply what does my love for another have to do with God, Jesus and all other innards of religion? And what gives religion the right to sanction marriage over a the workings of a defacto relationship. I don't think the intention of marriage is to constrain but I do think people feel more constrained and obligated when married. But what would I know.

Whatever the purpose of marriage, I don't think it's necessary anymore. Now, I'm still married and I'll try my hardest to make it work but if it fails, then that is it.

Actually, I think marriage is for old people. They do need companionship. Young people, however, should stay away from it. Live life, get as many women as you can in bed (wear your hard hat), go out, party, get drunk, etc. etc.

I don't even want to think the number of women I've passed up just because I was married.


~J

[Moonbear]

I personally don't believe in marriage either but for other reasons. Simply what does my love for another have to do with God, Jesus and all other innards of religion? And what gives religion the right to sanction marriage over a the workings of a defacto relationship.
You don't have to get married in a church or as part of a religious ceremony. You can go to a courthouse and get married by a justice of the peace in a civil ceremony. Then it's purely for legal purposes (taxation, inheritance, medical decision-making in the event of incapacitation of one partner).

Women must be made different where you come from. Have you seriously never noticed that just about every other woman you meet is [or has been] in a relationship where their partner treated them like crap or were indifferent towards them yet they stayed in the relationship anyway and did things for him all the time? And most men do this on a smaller scale so that you would likely not realize it at first. In various small ways they implant the suggestion in their partners head that they better be good or he just might not be around any more.
I really don't see it. Or rather it's rare, and when it happens, we all tell her to just dump the jerk, which usually happens soon enough. Do men really tell each other this is the way to get a woman? No wonder women spend so much time complaining about all the jerks they meet. Of course, you reap what you sow. If you treat women like crap, they'll treat you like crap too. That's not a good way to develop a decent relationship.

She did things. It was just rare and mostly lame. At least twice that I knew of she decided to randomly buy something for me as a gift then afterwards wondered why she bought it since it was not anything I would like and returned it. Anyway.. all of this had an underlying cause. She just wasn't interested but kept lying to herself and believing that she was.
Sounds more like you were the one to fall into the trap of hanging on in spite of being treated like crap.

And I'm not sure if you missed it or just were not responding to me but I don't keep score. But like I said its really hard to not notice when someone is not reciprocating in a manner that would suggest they are actually interested in you and care about you.

Yeah, I was responding to the other posts above yours with those comments. Sorry for the confusion.

[JasonRox]

Thats because you dont know the situational context, and the way I say these things. Do you really think im in a girls face saying, "IM NOT GOING TO CALL YOU".....come on guys, lets be reasonable here.

It seems you all have never heard of playing hard to get?

I know its hard to believe, but I know what Im doing. Also, keep in mind the area were talking about. I dont know how the people are in west virginia, or any other part of the country you're from. But here in washington dc, if you try to talk and act nice to a girl at a bar scene, you're going to get blown away so fast you wont know what hit you. OR, she'll just use you for some free drinks and then toss you away. I see it happen alllllllll the time. What may seem 'extreme' to you, is normal to me, and for good reason.

All of this depends on the person Im talking to at the time. You have to gauge how much you can get away with, how 'nice' you have to be to her. Some girls you just cant be nice to. Others you can be nice to. It depends on how they interact with you during the conversation, body language, the subject of the conversation.

For example, I'll even say, 'this conversation is going no where, talk about something else that isnt so boring'....they laugh and say yeah, you're right and we talk about something else. I've never had anyone get bent out of shape. I think you guys read statements I make above as, 'HEY YOU, CHANGE THIS GOD DAMN TOPIC NOW', when thats not at all how it sounds when I say it to you in person.

Haha, I just started laughing about this.

I've been out the girl would pay for me. Or if I'm not drinking, they will offer to get drinks for me.

Yeah, I've said rude things to girls and dirty things. It all depends on the conversation. I once told a girl right up front she's a *****. She still sends me messages to hang out and have fun. :P (She has a boyfriend.)

[Moonbear]

No, if you were a girl and met someone open honest and upfront you'd be bored out of your mind with that guy in five minutes (I'm talking about someone you just met).

That is about the stupidest remark I've seen so far. Sorry, no other way to put that. How about when you actually have a girlfriend you tell us how it goes? Otherwise, you know a lot about how NOT to develop a relationship. If someone is bored with you in 5 minutes, you're probably a horribly boring person, it has nothing to do with being open, honest or upfront. Are your conversational skills truly that limited that you have to fabricate stories in order to keep someone's attention?

How about having some respect for the women who are telling you that you have it quite wrong about what women want? Perhaps, just perhaps, women know better than you what we want.

[JasonRox]

That is about the stupidest remark I've seen so far. Sorry, no other way to put that. How about when you actually have a girlfriend you tell us how it goes? Otherwise, you know a lot about how NOT to develop a relationship. If someone is bored with you in 5 minutes, you're probably a horribly boring person, it has nothing to do with being open, honest or upfront. Are your conversational skills truly that limited that you have to fabricate stories in order to keep someone's attention?

How about having some respect for the women who are telling you that you have it quite wrong about what women want? Perhaps, just perhaps, women know better than you what we want.

Yeah, that's I meant. I'm honest and upfront with anything. (I mentionned this earlier.)

I've got atleast one number everytime I've gone out in the past like 6 weeks. I highly doubt I'm coming off as boring and dull. (Most girls I meet and get along with are those I meet outside the bar taking air or in restaurants and random places.) I just have fun at bars.

[The_Professional]

No, if you were a girl and met someone open honest and upfront you'd be bored out of your mind with that guy in five minutes (I'm talking about someone you just met).


Honesty is good, but you can't be open about everything in your life. Honesty and openness are different things which is why they're spelled differently. If it's not going to raise interest level why bring it up. Watch Cary Grant movies and copy his banter.

[lisab]

Whew, reading all this makes me sooooo glad I'm married and don't have to date anymore...what a bunch of head games!

[Cyrus]

That is about the stupidest remark I've seen so far. Sorry, no other way to put that. How about when you actually have a girlfriend you tell us how it goes? Otherwise, you know a lot about how NOT to develop a relationship. If someone is bored with you in 5 minutes, you're probably a horribly boring person, it has nothing to do with being open, honest or upfront. Are your conversational skills truly that limited that you have to fabricate stories in order to keep someone's attention?

How about having some respect for the women who are telling you that you have it quite wrong about what women want? Perhaps, just perhaps, women know better than you what we want.


I think what I said was not very clear. What I meant was, when you initially talk to someone you just met. If you're trying to chat up someone and you are open and honest then you will come off as being very boring. I should have made this more clear, sorry. In other words, don't walk up to someone and say: "Hi my name is x..." and then proceed to talk about open, honest, boring stuff.

I already mentioned that I dont lie about myself when I talk to someone, on any issue. I dont know what women are telling me I have it wrong about what women want though?

[Cyrus]

Honesty is good, but you can't be open about everything in your life. Honesty and openness are different things which is why they're spelled differently. If it's not going to raise interest level why bring it up. Watch Cary Grant movies and copy his banter.

That's a good observation.

[NeoDevin]

Perhaps, just perhaps, women know better than you what we want.

That's the funniest thing I've read in this entire thread! (Most) Women (and men too) don't have a clue what they want in a partner. They think they want someone nice, kind, and sensitive, but then fall for a jerk (I'm generalizing and exaggerating a little here).

If you truly believe this, I would recommend an experiment for you.

1. Find 10 women (unmarried, single, and looking for a relationship).
2. Ask them what they look for in a man.
3. Wait and see who their next boyfriend is.
4. Compare the results of 2 and 3.

I think you'll be surprised by the differences between what women think they want, and what they actually choose when the time comes.

Edit: Oh yeah, and I agree with Cyrus on almost everything he says, and it's more or less the same approach I have when dating.

[Evo]

I'd have to say Moonbear, myself, and several other women that I've gotten to know here mean what they say and act according to what they say.

I loathe "bad boy" types and will NOT date one. I will not tolerate a man being a jerk to me. My history of dumping men without notice if they display any discourteous traits speaks for itself. My two girls also will not tolerate such treatment and both look for really "nice" guys to date. My oldest is currently in a relationship with one of the nicest guys you'll ever meet, the youngest is "available". But she has always dated super nice boys.

Anyone that allows themselves to be mistreated or that mistreats others have self esteem issues.

I wouldn't call what Cyrus does "mistreating" anyone. I do find it curious that he thinks someone honestly talking about themselves would be boring. Yes, there are boring people. I've been called boring. I've been called fascinating. I guess the ones that thought I was fascinating were boring. :tongue2:

I have to admit that while I would be put off by someone bragging about themselves, if I found out that the man was feeding me a line of BS about himself for whatever reason, I would cut him off.

[rewebster]

It seems a lot of the differences in 'observations' among posters seems to stem from the initial point of 'what, where, why'-----are you looking for a XXXX, going out to the XXXX, to get XXX?

if you're going to the bars to get laid, that's one LCD (lowest common denominator);

and, are you looking in a common stomping ground for a mate (life partner)?

if you're personally (personality wise, mature enough) not ready for a 'good' mate, chances are, you won't find one.

If you're looking for something specific, (a rich mate, a smart mate, an athletic mate, etc.), it may be better to look at specific 'meeting grounds' for that type. If you have one 'more major qualifying factor' , say, for example, some women want only men that are very successful and rich, there's head games that go along with what made them that way. If a guy is looking for a woman is 'fun', her definition of 'fun' will still be different than yours.

Some people seem to be still playing around;

and, some seem to know, at least, from their own maturity level, what they want.

[Cyrus]

I'd have to say Moonbear, myself, and several other women that I've gotten to know here mean what they say and act according to what they say.

I loathe "bad boy" types and will NOT date one. I will not tolerate a man being a jerk to me. My history of dumping men without notice if they display any discourteous traits speaks for itself. My two girls also will not tolerate such treatment and both look for really "nice" guys to date. My oldest is currently in a relationship with one of the nicest guys you'll ever meet, the youngest is "available". But she has always dated super nice boys.

Anyone that allows themselves to be mistreated or that mistreats others have self esteem issues.

I wouldn't call what Cyrus does "mistreating" anyone. I do find it curious that he thinks someone honestly talking about themselves would be boring. Yes, there are boring people. I've been called boring. I've been called fascinating. I guess the ones that thought I was fascinating were boring. :tongue2:

I have to admit that while I would be put off by someone bragging about themselves, if I found out that the man was feeding me a line of BS about himself for whatever reason, I would cut him off.

Well, the thing is when I'm talking to someone in a bar, I dont care about the answers to the quesitons I ask. Im only ask the questions to be playful, tease them, and poke fun at them. If I were to honestly walk up to someone and say hi, bla ba bla tell me about yourself. Bla bla bla, it would be so boring. And if someone Im talking to does this (male or female), I'll let them know they are boring me. I didnt go to a bar to hear your lifes story. I just want to have fun talking and interacting with people.

My friend and I have had that 'nice guy' walk up to use and start talking, and talking, and talking. Hey guys. What bar did you go to? Were there a lot of girls there? What bars do you like going to? My friend and I are looking at eachother like, who the hell is this guy. Why wont he shut up and get lost? I mean, hes being honest and open in his communication. But no one wants to hear it.

(I think the problem moonbear, is that you are taking what Im saying for just meeting and interacting with people socially, and extracting it to a serious relationship. Which is NOT what Im saying at all).

[rewebster]

Well, the thing is when I'm talking to someone in a bar, I dont care about the answers to the quesitons I ask. Im only ask the questions to be playful, tease them, and poke fun at them. If I were to honestly walk up to someone and say hi, bla ba bla tell me about yourself. Bla bla bla, it would be so boring. And if someone Im talking to does this (male or female), I'll let them know they are boring me. I didnt go to a bar to hear your lifes story. I just want to have fun talking and interacting with people.

My friend and I have had that 'nice guy' walk up to use and start talking, and talking, and talking. Hey guys. What bar did you go to? Were there a lot of girls there? What bars do you like going to? My friend and I are looking at eachother like, who the hell is this guy. Why wont he shut up and get lost? I mean, hes being honest and open in his communication. But no one wants to hear it.

(I think the problem moonbear, is that you are taking what Im saying for just meeting and interacting with people socially, and extracting it to a serious relationship. Which is NOT what Im saying at all).

so, you're looking for people that poke fun at you, and tease you for you being who you are from their viewpoint?

[Cyrus]

so, you're looking for people that poke fun at you, and tease you for you being who you are from their viewpoint?

What? ..........................I honestly think you have not had a bar conversation before, or you'd understand what I'm talking about. Have you not noticed the things Jason says about his conversations are nearly the same as what I say? Its because he's been in bars and know's what people talk about in them. Its just stupid chit chat so people can relax, unwind and have some fun.

[rewebster]

I've been to bars----don't you understand the question?---I can re-phrase if I have to

[Cyrus]

I've been to bars----don't you understand the question?---I can re-phrase if I have to

Your question makes no sense. I cant answer something that does not make sense.

[rewebster]

Your question makes no sense. I cant answer something that does not make sense.

When you go to the bars, do you find those people interesting that poke fun at you, and tease you for you being who you are?

[Cyrus]

When you go to the bars, do you find those people interesting that poke fun at you, and tease you for you being who you are?

Again, your question is fundamentally wrong. I dont know why you are using the phrase 'poke fun at you, and tease you for you being who you are'. You're making it sound as if were sitting there trying to insult eachother or something, which isnt the case. The way you pose the question just isnt right.

So again, I cant answer your question.

Perhaps I should give you an example to make things clearer. One girl was giving me a hard time because I told her im from DC. But she said "no your not, you live in maryland, and you go to school in maryland. Sounds like your from maryland to me." I busted her chops earlier, and now she was busting mine. MUCH more fun talking to her than another girl that would have been, 'oh you live in maryland, I see ZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz'.

[Evo]

Ah, to be young and in a bar. :biggrin:

Things have changed from when I went to bars. I met my first husband in a bar. I asked him where he lived and it wasn't too far from me. I asked him where he worked and he said a contractor at NASA, he was into photogrpahy, the conversation just kept flowing... We talked all night, and before we left he asked me if I'd like to go out to dinner the following weekend. I said I'd love to and we did.

[rewebster]

Again, your question is fundamentally wrong. I dont know why you are using the phrase 'poke fun at you, and tease you for you being who you are'. You're making it sound as if were sitting there trying to insult eachother or something, which isnt the case. The way you pose the question just isnt right.

So again, I cant answer your question.
Perhaps I should give you an example to make things clearer. One girl was giving me a hard time because I told her im from DC. But she said "no your not, you live in maryland, and you go to school in maryland. Sounds like your from maryland to me." I busted her chops earlier, and now she was busting mine. MUCH more fun talking to her than another girl that would have been, 'oh you live in maryland, I see ZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz'.

I can't understand that you don't understand the question--I copied it almost word for word from your post:

Well, the thing is when I'm talking to someone in a bar, I dont care about the answers to the quesitons I ask. Im only ask the questions to be playful, tease them, and poke fun at them.

[Cyrus]

I can't understand that you don't understand the question--I copied it almost word for word from your post:

Because you added 'for who you are', and I dont tease people 'for who they are'. That little 'for who they are' makes a HUGE difference. So, again I still cant answer your question the way its worded.

[rewebster]

don't worry---I was just teasing you and poking fun at you ----you know, that empathy thing

[WarPhalange]

Now you have to ask for his phone number.

[rewebster]

Now you have to ask for his phone number.

you mean, I'll tell him that I'm NOT giving him my number and I'm NOT calling him

[Cyrus]

don't worry---I was just teasing you and poking fun at you ----you know, that empathy thing

I hope you're not this bitter in real life over trivial things, because wow....

[Jordan Joab]

I'm having a blast reading this thread! It's very entertaining and I've learned a few things here and there.

Reading all this makes me wish I was single again and having fun out there.:tongue:

[Cyrus]

I'm having a blast reading this thread! It's very entertaining and I've learned a few things here and there.

Reading all this makes me wish I was single again and having fun out there.:tongue:

You can look at whats on the menu, you just cant order anything. :tongue2:

[Jordan Joab]

You can look at whats on the menu, you just cant order anything. :tongue2:

At some point I'll be ordering again. I'm too damn young not to live life!:biggrin:

[rewebster]

I hope you're not this bitter in real life over trivial things, because wow....

thanks, I think... bitter --no----and I hope you have more empathy in 'the real life' than what you post, too.

[Cyrus]

At some point I'll be ordering again. I'm too damn young not to live life!:biggrin:

You can always do things with your wife still. There are tons of stuff you can do together and try out. Take classes together, (Cooking, dancing, I donno), find some activity to try. It will be fun, just dont do something thats mundane. If you two are going to try something new, make it count. Something outside both of your comfort zones.

[Cyrus]

thanks, I think... bitter --no----and I hope you have more empathy in 'the real life' than what you post, too.

Empathy in what way?

Side: I dont know why you're thanking me. I wasnt giving you a compliment, that was pretty obvious. At least I thought so...

*Note, I'm being genuine here. I'm not trying to piss you off.

[Evo]

I'm having a blast reading this thread! It's very entertaining and I've learned a few things here and there.

Reading all this makes me wish I was single again and having fun out there.:tongue:You really need to get a divorce, you are not ready to be in a commited relationship. It's not fair to your wife. Cut her loose so she can find someone decent that really cares about her, not just for short term sex.

[rewebster]

Empathy in what way?

Side: I dont know why you're thanking me. I wasnt giving you a compliment, that was pretty obvious. At least I thought so...
*Note, I'm being genuine here. I'm not trying to piss you off.

hmmmm--what were you trying to do, then?

[Jordan Joab]

You can always do things with your wife still. There are tons of stuff you can do together and try out. Take classes together, (Cooking, dancing, I donno), find some activity to try. It will be fun, just dont do something thats mundane. If you two are going to try something new, make it count. Something outside both of your comfort zones.

I'll be completely honest, even though I'm going to try spicing things up, I'm tired of the same woman:frown:

Eating peanut butter & jelly everyday gets old!

[rewebster]

I'll be completely honest, even though I'm going to try spicing things up, I'm tired of the same woman:frown:

Eating peanut butter & jelly everyday gets old!

have you tried the Elvis variety of it?

[Jordan Joab]

have you tried the Elvis variety of it?

Dear Lord, I don't know what that is! Explain, please.

[rewebster]

Dear Lord, I don't know what that is! Explain, please.

http://qbert.aminus3.com/image/2007-06-08.html

[Jordan Joab]

http://qbert.aminus3.com/image/2007-06-08.html

That's a heart attack in a bun.

[rewebster]

That's a heart attack in a bun.

(have you told that to your wife lately)

------------
on the tube right now:

Goldeneye is on (Bond)

"I like a woman who enjoys pulling rank"

[Moonbear]

I'll be completely honest, even though I'm going to try spicing things up, I'm tired of the same woman:frown:

Eating peanut butter & jelly everyday gets old!

Then just get a divorce already. For all you know, she probably thinks the same thing. One of you just needs to say it. It really just sounds like you married too young, before you really knew what you wanted or who you wanted it with, and now regret it. It doesn't mean either of you are bad people, just that you are really incompatible with one another. You need to find someone a little spicier, and she needs to find someone blander, then you can both be happy.

[Cyrus]

hmmmm--what were you trying to do, then?

Show you that posting childish remarks are not appreciated. I guess that wasnt obvious to you either.

[Cyrus]

Then just get a divorce already. For all you know, she probably thinks the same thing. One of you just needs to say it. It really just sounds like you married too young, before you really knew what you wanted or who you wanted it with, and now regret it. It doesn't mean either of you are bad people, just that you are really incompatible with one another. You need to find someone a little spicier, and she needs to find someone blander, then you can both be happy.

I agree. Thats why I cant even begin to imagine the people who are married even as young as 25, or 26!

[rewebster]

Show you that posting childish remarks are not appreciated. I guess that wasnt obvious to you either.

actually, I caught it all---at least I didn't call anyone childish and bitter

[Jordan Joab]

Then just get a divorce already. For all you know, she probably thinks the same thing. One of you just needs to say it. It really just sounds like you married too young, before you really knew what you wanted or who you wanted it with, and now regret it. It doesn't mean either of you are bad people, just that you are really incompatible with one another. You need to find someone a little spicier, and she needs to find someone blander, then you can both be happy.

I know. There's just too much emotionally invested. Plus, I'm afraid of that change since we've been together as a couple since high school. Eventually I'll figure it out. She's smart, I know she already knows what's going on.

[whitay]

Don't have the balls huh??

You seem like you've already figured it out from previous posts.

[Moonbear]

I know. There's just too much emotionally invested. Plus, I'm afraid of that change since we've been together as a couple since high school.
Taking even longer to get out isn't going to help that any. Besides, really, what emotional investment? Are you waiting until you completely hate each other instead of getting out while it's still amicable? If you think you still have something worth saving, try marriage counseling and see if getting the problems out in the open can solve them. Either way, don't wait until you completely resent one another to make some sort of move. You have to talk about it to fix it, either way it goes.

I could not even begin to imagine still being with my high school boyfriend. We still keep in touch on and off, but egad, life would be boring with him! He likes to play everything safe, by the book, never just wing it, never just do something spontaneous, certainly not pick and move from state to state every few years. The things that attract people in high school just aren't the things that keep you together years later. It's REALLY rare for high school sweethearts to end up in a lasting marriage.

[rootX]

good that I ve decided not to think about marriage until I reach 40/50 :smile:

[Cyrus]

Don't have the balls huh??

You seem like you've already figured it out from previous posts.

I dont think you're in any place to tell another guy he doesnt have the balls to tell his wife he wants to leave her. Thats not an easy thing to say to someone and should be done with care.

[lisab]

I dont think you're in any place to tell another guy he doesnt have the balls to tell his wife he wants to leave her. Thats not an easy thing to say to someone and should be done with care.

I concur - completely.

[whitay]

I dont think you're in any place to tell another guy he doesnt have the balls to tell his wife he wants to leave her. Thats not an easy thing to say to someone and should be done with care.

You're absolutely right. I am not in any place to tell anyone they don't have balls.

But if you care, do you refer to someone as a sandwich?

[Cyrus]

You're absolutely right. I am not in any place to tell anyone they don't have balls.

But if you care, do you refer to someone as a sandwich?

I've never heard that before. What does it mean to call someone a sandwich?

[rootX]

You're absolutely right. I am not in any place to tell anyone they don't have balls.

But if you care, do you refer to someone as a sandwich?

You will get this thread locked!

[whitay]

You're right I probably will get this thread locked. So be it. It is far from the topic.

Cyrus:


I'll be completely honest, even though I'm going to try spicing things up, I'm tired of the same woman:frown:

Eating peanut butter & jelly everyday gets old!

have you tried the Elvis variety of it?

Dear Lord, I don't know what that is! Explain, please.

http://qbert.aminus3.com/image/2007-06-08.html

That's a heart attack in a bun.

[TheStatutoryApe]

I really don't see it. Or rather it's rare, and when it happens, we all tell her to just dump the jerk, which usually happens soon enough. Do men really tell each other this is the way to get a woman? No wonder women spend so much time complaining about all the jerks they meet. Of course, you reap what you sow. If you treat women like crap, they'll treat you like crap too. That's not a good way to develop a decent relationship.
I have had a few guys say such things but I have had even more women say them to me. I'm also not necessarily meaning that they all treat women like crap but in such a way as to make them think that they need to work to keep hold of them. Most men don't do these things because they were told to by others but because it honestly works. 'Nice Guys' rarely get dates and tend to get walked all over and dumped while 'Bad Boys' tend to get dates all the time and usually are the ones doing the dumping. Most people rarely develope decent relationships.

I'd have to say Moonbear, myself, and several other women that I've gotten to know here mean what they say and act according to what they say.
I would say that you and Moonie and the vast majority of PF women are not the 'average' woman and may not even often mix with 'average' women very often. Is it really very hard for you to believe that intelligent analytical minded men who regularly come into contact with 'the average woman' in social/courting/dating situations might know what they are talking about?

I loathe "bad boy" types and will NOT date one. I will not tolerate a man being a jerk to me. My history of dumping men without notice if they display any discourteous traits speaks for itself. My two girls also will not tolerate such treatment and both look for really "nice" guys to date. My oldest is currently in a relationship with one of the nicest guys you'll ever meet, the youngest is "available". But she has always dated super nice boys.
And I doubt that you and your daughters are very average at all. Most women do like bad boys, even those that say they don't (I'm not including you or your daughters in any of what I am saying here). Most of the intelligent and independant (and rare) women I have met that actually do prefer 'nice guys' usually wind up dominating them and walking all over them. Most of the guys get fed up and leave or lash out and the few that will actually take it are often eventually deemed too weak and boring and get dumped.

[rootX]

You're right I probably will get this thread locked. So be it. It is far from the topic.

Cyrus:

I agree but those are entertaining :smile:

And, if you say something not nice, he gets mad.. everyone gets heated ==> thread locked!

Nothing comes out of that...

[Cyrus]

You're right I probably will get this thread locked. So be it. It is far from the topic.

Cyrus:

I have no idea what you are talking about......:confused:

[JasonRox]

Bla, insecurity in a woman is a huge turn-off for me. When girls try to pull that kind of crap I tell them exactly what they dont want to hear. Does this make me look fat? Yes. Are my eyes pretty? No. Don't ask me these stupid questions...they have no point and are signs of insecurity. Now, she should stop and think: if you were fat or had ugly eyes do you really think I'd be sitting here spending my time with you? No, I wouldnt.

Well, no one likes to keep score. But then again, unless you want to be used you better keep mental note. I wouldnt know about the expecations though, because usually I'm the one with much, much higher expecations and I make them very clear. Well, people do go out of their way and do nice things for others, but thats usually after they get to know them pretty well and have determined this person is worth going out of their way. But the key is they have to know you pretty well. If all she knows is that you will run through hoops for her all day long, she ant gonna do squat from the goodness of her heart for you -ever.


Haha, I just told my girl yesterday that the "Am I pretty?" questions are annoying and should stop.

[JasonRox]

I'll be completely honest, even though I'm going to try spicing things up, I'm tired of the same woman:frown:

Eating peanut butter & jelly everyday gets old!

Try open relationship.

I will never get married or anything. The only time I would consider marriage is the girl is very open, confident, secure, independent and so on. (That's rare.) My girl thought she was but it turned out it was just her figment of imagination because she was always going out with lame guys.

[GeorginaS]

Cyus posted: Bla, insecurity in a woman is a huge turn-off for me. When girls try to pull that kind of crap I tell them exactly what they dont want to hear. Does this make me look fat? Yes. Are my eyes pretty? No. Don't ask me these stupid questions...they have no point and are signs of insecurity. Now, she should stop and think: if you were fat or had ugly eyes do you really think I'd be sitting here spending my time with you? No, I wouldnt.

Well, no one likes to keep score. But then again, unless you want to be used you better keep mental note. I wouldnt know about the expecations though, because usually I'm the one with much, much higher expecations and I make them very clear. Well, people do go out of their way and do nice things for others, but thats usually after they get to know them pretty well and have determined this person is worth going out of their way. But the key is they have to know you pretty well. If all she knows is that you will run through hoops for her all day long, she ant gonna do squat from the goodness of her heart for you -ever.

Haha, I just told my girl yesterday that the "Am I pretty?" questions are annoying and should stop.

That you two seem to relish being rude and mean to women is a little disturbing. There's nothing wrong with asking for a little reassurance or confidence boost from your partner. That's one reason they're there, to perk you up when you might not feel your strongest. And they're there for you on that count too. Allowing yourself to be vulnerable in front of someone you care about is paramount to a healthy mutual relationship. There has to be someone on the planet you can let your guard down around. Evidently it's not either of you two because it seems you can't be trusted with other people's feelings.

[Jordan Joab]

Ha! In the time this thread was inactive I began fixing things at home. So far, so good.

[Evo]

Ha! In the time this thread was inactive I began fixing things at home. So far, so good.Well, that's very nice to hear, I wish you luck.

I was going to close this thread, but maybe there might be some good use for it after all.

[Cyrus]

That you two seem to relish being rude and mean to women is a little disturbing. There's nothing wrong with asking for a little reassurance or confidence boost from your partner. That's one reason they're there, to perk you up when you might not feel your strongest. And they're there for you on that count too. Allowing yourself to be vulnerable in front of someone you care about is paramount to a healthy mutual relationship. There has to be someone on the planet you can let your guard down around. Evidently it's not either of you two because it seems you can't be trusted with other people's feelings.

To be honest, no. Its just extremely annoying when a person (male or female) has insecurities and bring them up all the time. When I talk to my friends I dont ask them 'am I a good friend', 'do you like me', 'do I look good today'..........gimme a break. Why is it because shes a woman I have to tell her constantly, dont worry you look good, that does not make you fat.

If she looks good, I'll say randomly to her she looks very nice. But I'm not going to play to her insecurities. Asking the kinds of questions jason and I are talking about really not about someone 'not being their strongest'. Those are really shallow questions that should not even be asked. Being vulnerable infront of someone is fine, so long as its a legitimate issue. I dont see confidence boosters as legitimate. A girl I met from another country made the comment to me that the girls here (in the USA) are so pretty and she feels ugly. I just said...........umm, okay? What a dumb thing to ask me. Had she said, 'im feeling sad right now' I would have tried to cheer her up. But the way she phrased it, Im not going to play along.

Male example:

There was a guy in my class last summer who was from out of state. He would complain and complain about this one area of maryland he worked at in a restaurant. This area is ritzy and very nice. He said "I hate that place and all the people there". I asked him why? He said he worked there and all the people are rude and dont tip well. He would always make this off hand comments about people he saw better off than him showing his insecurity. I got fed up with him one time and told him, "maybe they would tip you more if you didnt act so damn insecure and childish around these people".

Im just curious why you would think its appropriate for a woman to ask her partner if 'she looks cute' ? I really dont like people with low self-esteem.

[Monique]

Im just curious why you would think its appropriate for a woman to ask her partner if 'she looks cute' ? I really dont like people with low self-esteem.
It doesn't need to have anything to do with low self-esteem, if a cat comes up to you and wants to be be petted you don't tell it to get lost, do you?

[Cyrus]

It doesn't need to have anything to do with low self-esteem, if a cat comes up to you and wants to be be petted you don't tell it to get lost, do you?

Whats that got to do with a woman asking vane questions?

Also, to the ladies. What Jason and I have said also applies to you. I've had girls complain to me about their old boyfriends asking them the same stupid kinds of questions. Guys asking girls: "do you love me?" "do you like me?" "im not good enough for you".

Would you like your partner constantly asking you "do you love me?" If I were a girl I would tell him to stop asking and get some balls.

[LowlyPion]

Being vulnerable infront of someone is fine, so long as its a legitimate issue.

So you don't think that women that may be from birth bombarded with valuing their appearances and maybe even measuring their self worth in some cases solely on that - pity the poor girls on the beauty pageant track - and I might add as I recall you yourself having said that you value women as partners on first finding them "attractive" - that how they "look" would not be a "legitimate issue" ?

As a partner do you see it as your task to communicate your appreciation for the other person or merely to receive theirs for you?

[Monique]

Whats that got to do with a woman asking vane questions? Everyone needs a little loving.

Also, to the ladies. What Jason and I have said also applies to you. I've had girls complain to me about their old boyfriends asking them the same stupid kinds of questions. Guys asking girls: "do you love me?" "do you like me?" "im not good enough for you".

Would you like your partner constantly asking you "do you love me?" If I were a girl I would tell him to stop asking and get some balls. It's the way the question is being asked. If it is a desperate question, then something is wrong in the relationship. The person is either too insecure, or the other person is not giving enough feedback. If it is a nonchalant question you give an honest answer and a hug (or the equivalent of a little loving).

[Cyrus]

So you don't think that women that may be from birth bombarded with valuing their appearances and maybe even measuring their self worth in some cases solely on that - pity the poor girls on the beauty pageant track - and I might add as I recall you yourself having said that you value women as partners on first finding them "attractive" - that how they "look" would not be a "legitimate issue" ?

As a partner do you see it as your task to communicate your appreciation for the other person or merely to receive theirs for you?

Oh gimme a break. Dont you think men are supposed to be fit and have muscles also? Men also have pressure to look good. I know quite a lot of guys at the gym I used to go to that would take steroids to look big.

This is such a sad argument.

[Cyrus]

Everyone needs a little loving.

Well, you and I are different. Thats fine, but personally I dont 'give lovin' out of someones desperation.

It's the way the question is being asked. If it is a desperate question, then something is wrong in the relationship. The person is either too insecure, or the other person is not giving enough feedback. If it is a nonchalant question you give an honest answer and a hug (or the equivalent of a little loving).

I agree, with the exception that if its a nonchalant question, I'll give an opposite answer to what the person wants to hear (Since its a stupid question).

If I tell you, 'you look nice today' its because I mean it. Not because I want to cheer you up due to your low self-esteem. Otherwise its cheap and meaningless for me to say 'you look nice'.

I mean honestly, its like having a say 'tell me you love me'.......:rolleyes: If I was a girl and a guy said that to me, I'd tell him no. No, I dont. Because you are too insecure.

Im just curious, does your boyfriend or any past boyfriends you had say these kinds of things to you? And what was your response, but what were you really thinking in the back of your mind when you said it.

[LowlyPion]

... I know quite a lot of guys at the gym I used to go to that would take steroids to look big.

This is such a sad argument.

These "men" of course have no insecurities or identity issues? They don't need to be told they look trim and fit? Manly men don't need that kind of reinforcement?

Why again are they at the gym?

As to placing value on looks what do you suppose the ratio is of male beauty pageants to female?

[Moonbear]

Im just curious, does your boyfriend or any past boyfriends you had say these kinds of things to you? And what was your response, but what were you really thinking in the back of your mind when you said it.

Yes, my boyfriend and I say these things to each other often. Though, admittedly, it probably sounds a bit nauseatingly cute, but we only do it when we're alone together, not when others are around to be nauseated. :biggrin: It's fun. I think an insecure person wouldn't ask such a question, because they'd be afraid the answer would be "no." We say it because we know the answer is "yes." Though, yeah, we do sometimes answer sarcastically too, because we both have a sarcastic sense of humor. For example, if my boyfriend asks if I love him, I might answer, "Most of the time," or "Nah, I only hang around with you for the sex." But, when I say things like that, it's totally obvious I'm joking. Of course, we also have a thing where if one of us says, "I love you," instead of being cliche and automatically answering "I love you" back, we sometimes answer, "I know." And follow that up with more nauseatingly cute, "How do you know?" :biggrin:

I better stop, I can sense Cyrus turning green around the gills with this.

[WarPhalange]

Oh gimme a break. Dont you think men are supposed to be fit and have muscles also? Men also have pressure to look good.

No. We don't. Not nearly as much.

When's the last time you saw an ugly chick with a hot guy? Not very often. Whereas ugly guys, such as business men, doctors, politicians, rock stars, athletes, etc. get hot women all the time.

You can say guys have a lot more pressure to be "successful" in life, but that's a much more objective thing than "looking pretty". You don't have to ask someone "am I successful?", you just have to look at your bank account and connections.

[rewebster]

These "men" of course have no insecurities or identity issues? They don't need to be told they look trim and fit? Manly men don't need that kind of reinforcement?

Why again are they at the gym?

As to placing value on looks what do you suppose the ratio is of male beauty pageants to female?

is this what you mean?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection

[LowlyPion]

is this what you mean?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection

Not exactly.

I guess what I was exploring was communication in a relationship and how one might value another's feelings and how one might choose to respond to and nurture the other.

To the extent that projection is some manifestation of unhealthy narcissism I suppose projection might be on point.

[Cyrus]

These "men" of course have no insecurities or identity issues? They don't need to be told they look trim and fit? Manly men don't need that kind of reinforcement?

Why again are they at the gym?

As to placing value on looks what do you suppose the ratio is of male beauty pageants to female?

I have no idea what you're talking about. When did I say they dont have insecurities or identity issues? You're not reading what im typing.

[Cyrus]

Yes, my boyfriend and I say these things to each other often. Though, admittedly, it probably sounds a bit nauseatingly cute, but we only do it when we're alone together, not when others are around to be nauseated. :biggrin: It's fun. I think an insecure person wouldn't ask such a question, because they'd be afraid the answer would be "no." We say it because we know the answer is "yes." Though, yeah, we do sometimes answer sarcastically too, because we both have a sarcastic sense of humor. For example, if my boyfriend asks if I love him, I might answer, "Most of the time," or "Nah, I only hang around with you for the sex." But, when I say things like that, it's totally obvious I'm joking. Of course, we also have a thing where if one of us says, "I love you," instead of being cliche and automatically answering "I love you" back, we sometimes answer, "I know." And follow that up with more nauseatingly cute, "How do you know?" :biggrin:

I better stop, I can sense Cyrus turning green around the gills with this.

No, I strongly disagree with this statement. A SECURE person does not have to ask 'do you love me'. If you cant tell if someone loves you or not and have to resort to asking, somethings not right.

My question to you is this. Ask yourself, honestly, WHY would he ask you this? Obviously you do love him. Why does he need to ask you this, AT ALL? Instead, he could say 'I love YOU'. Why does he need to ask you if you love him? If you said I love you last time he asked, chances are unless something major happened between the two of you the answer is still the same.

I agree with the very last part of your post, which is what im saying above with the 'I love you'.

Asking 'do you love me?' is like saying, 'hi, im modest'.....

[LowlyPion]

I have no idea what you're talking about. When did I say they dont have insecurities or identity issues? You're not reading what im typing.

What is your point then?

It's a legitimate identity issue for men but not for women?

This would then be your identification of an inequality between men and women?

[Cyrus]

No. We don't. Not nearly as much.

When's the last time you saw an ugly chick with a hot guy? Not very often. Whereas ugly guys, such as business men, doctors, politicians, rock stars, athletes, etc. get hot women all the time.

You can say guys have a lot more pressure to be "successful" in life, but that's a much more objective thing than "looking pretty". You don't have to ask someone "am I successful?", you just have to look at your bank account and connections.

Fair enough. That is a valid point in all respects.

[Cyrus]

What is your point then?

It's a legitimate identity issue for men but not for women?

This would then be your identification of an inequality between men and women?

What? Maybe im talking in chinese, but my point was that its a problem for BOTH men and women..........Jeeshhhhhh... come on.

You're doing a really bad job following along here.

[lisab]

No, I strongly disagree with this statement. A SECURE person does not have to ask 'do you love me'. If you cant tell if someone loves you or not and have to resort to asking, somethings not right.

My question to you is this. Ask yourself, honestly, WHY would he ask you this? Obviously you do love him. Why does he need to ask you this, AT ALL? Instead, he could say 'I love YOU'. Why does he need to ask you if you love him? If you said I love you last time he asked, chances are unless something major happened between the two of you the answer is still the same.

I agree with the very last part of your post, which is what im saying above with the 'I love you'.

Asking 'do you love me?' is like saying, 'hi, im modest'.....

It's just lovers' banter. When you're in love - well, mostly just early in the relationship - this sort of talk electrifies the pleasure center in your brain. It isn't for reassurance - it's only for pleasure.

[Cyrus]

It's just lovers' banter. When you're in love - well, mostly just early in the relationship - this sort of talk electrifies the pleasure center in your brain. It isn't for reassurance - it's only for pleasure.

Im not talking about playfull 'do you love me' banter. Im talking about guys that ask this question - seriously to their gfs.

The same way girls say 'do I look pretty' and mean it because they have no self confidence.

I have one friend who lets his gf run him around. He's literally her b****. Im like man, she says jump and you say how high. Its really pathetic. I know hes the kind of guy to say things like that to her.

If she would playfully ask me 'do you love me', I playfully say 'no, I dont'. But I never say im just joking afterwards.

Side: To clear things up. When I give reverse answers. I dont say 'no I dont' in a mean tone. I playfully say the opposite of what she wants to hear. But I never clear it up by saying afterwards 'oh, im just kidding'. I just leave it as an open ended statement.

[Cyrus]

It's just lovers' banter. When you're in love - well, mostly just early in the relationship - this sort of talk electrifies the pleasure center in your brain. It isn't for reassurance - it's only for pleasure.

My pleasure center is between my legs...HIYOOOOOOOOOOOO :devil:

[LowlyPion]

... Being vulnerable infront of someone is fine, so long as its a legitimate issue. ...

Im just curious why you would think its appropriate for a woman to ask her partner if 'she looks cute' ? I really dont like people with low self-esteem.

I'm sorry I thought your phrasing indicated that you didn't think that women worrying about their looks was a legitimate issue.

It's a relief to understand that you weren't taking a hypocritical point of view.

[Cyrus]

I'm sorry I thought your phrasing indicated that you didn't think that women worrying about their looks was a legitimate issue.

It's a relief to understand that you weren't taking a hypocritical point of view.

No, of course its a legit issue. And its one I dont like. Im not dealing with a girl that has low self esteem and asks such questions.

But I was trying to be fair by showing that guys do this same thing to girls.

[Moonbear]

It's just lovers' banter. When you're in love - well, mostly just early in the relationship - this sort of talk electrifies the pleasure center in your brain. It isn't for reassurance - it's only for pleasure.

Exactly! Not for reassurance at all. Though, it's not just early in the relationship. My boyfriend and I have dated before, and have a pretty long history together. Actually, the first time around, we didn't do all this silly stuff. Being young at the time, I had more of an attitude like Cyrus currently has, and would get annoyed at such things, even complained about "pet" names. This time around, the relationship is stronger and more secure and we have fun with these things rather than avoiding them. Besides, he's finally come to accept what I've been telling him all along...that I'm always right. He asked me if that means he's always wrong, and I explained that, no, he can be right too as long as he agrees with me. :biggrin: It does keep us from mixing up our towels though, because he knows mine is on the right and his is on the left. Even when I'm not visiting, he now keeps his towel on the left side of the towel rack. :rofl:

If you can't have fun with each other and trust each other with your feelings, there's really no point.

[Moonbear]

My pleasure center is between my legs...HIYOOOOOOOOOOOO :devil:

And that's normal when you're young. As that pleasure center moves further north, you'll be pleasantly surprised to discover how much it enhances the one between your legs too. As much as some of the things you say come across badly here (sorry, but they do...perhaps just things aren't coming across in writing as they would in person), I suspect that part of it is simply that you're nowhere close to being ready to settle down, and there's nothing wrong with that. Actually, it's better that you are aware that you're still enjoying playing the field than that you fall into the temptation to just latch onto whichever woman you're nearest as all your friends decide it's time to get married. Just watch out that the women you're meeting are aware you're not ready to be serious with anyone yet. When you meet the right one, your tune will change, and you won't even know what hit you, but there's no need to force it.

[Cyrus]

Exactly! Not for reassurance at all. Though, it's not just early in the relationship. My boyfriend and I have dated before, and have a pretty long history together. Actually, the first time around, we didn't do all this silly stuff. Being young at the time, I had more of an attitude like Cyrus currently has, and would get annoyed at such things, even complained about "pet" names. This time around, the relationship is stronger and more secure and we have fun with these things rather than avoiding them. Besides, he's finally come to accept what I've been telling him all along...that I'm always right. He asked me if that means he's always wrong, and I explained that, no, he can be right too as long as he agrees with me. :biggrin: It does keep us from mixing up our towels though, because he knows mine is on the right and his is on the left. Even when I'm not visiting, he now keeps his towel on the left side of the towel rack. :rofl:

If you can't have fun with each other and trust each other with your feelings, there's really no point.

Pet names, now im turning green! AHHHHHHHHHHHH ...........I love you pookie wookie. :vomit:

[Moonbear]

Pet names, now im turning green! AHHHHHHHHHHHH ...........I love you pookie wookie. :vomit:

NO, definitely no pookie wookies. :rofl: I'm not going to share his pet name for me, but the reason it works and is tolerable to me is that most people would consider it an insult, so it's sort of funny that it's a pet name, and it's definitely not the cliche "Honey" or "Sweetie" or "Pookie Wookie." :yuck: Basically, there's no doubt it's a pet name for me and me only, and not just a name he uses because he can't remember the names of all the women he dates (that's what I used to tell him pet names were for :wink:).

He's still fully aware that I know the best way to a man's heart is with a steak knife placed between the 4th and 5th rib, so doesn't try any of those "honey" or "sweetie" names with me. :biggrin:

[DaveC426913]

Moonie?

[JasonRox]

That you two seem to relish being rude and mean to women is a little disturbing. There's nothing wrong with asking for a little reassurance or confidence boost from your partner. That's one reason they're there, to perk you up when you might not feel your strongest. And they're there for you on that count too. Allowing yourself to be vulnerable in front of someone you care about is paramount to a healthy mutual relationship. There has to be someone on the planet you can let your guard down around. Evidently it's not either of you two because it seems you can't be trusted with other people's feelings.

I'm sorry, but that's not confidence if someone needs to keep boosting you up. It's pretty darn annoying.

My girl is currently being EXTREMELY CLINGY. I'm not going to talk to her all week just because of it. Sometimes I just want to be alone or hang out with friends, but for some reason she doesn't and won't allow it. Since she works out of town it will be easy not to talk. I'll just tell her I'm taking the week off of communication. The long weekend was suppose to be great. Missed a concert because she just kept crying about ********. It's like get over it.

She used to be a strong girl with strong character that could destroy me easily and I loved it. Now she's become an annoying little baby girl. The sad part is that she even said that she misses having control of things. That pissed me off because relationships isn't about having control over things.

Dang, I'd be surprised if it lasts another month.

[JasonRox]

Exactly! Not for reassurance at all. Though, it's not just early in the relationship. My boyfriend and I have dated before, and have a pretty long history together. Actually, the first time around, we didn't do all this silly stuff. Being young at the time, I had more of an attitude like Cyrus currently has, and would get annoyed at such things, even complained about "pet" names. This time around, the relationship is stronger and more secure and we have fun with these things rather than avoiding them. Besides, he's finally come to accept what I've been telling him all along...that I'm always right. He asked me if that means he's always wrong, and I explained that, no, he can be right too as long as he agrees with me. :biggrin: It does keep us from mixing up our towels though, because he knows mine is on the right and his is on the left. Even when I'm not visiting, he now keeps his towel on the left side of the towel rack. :rofl:

If you can't have fun with each other and trust each other with your feelings, there's really no point.

I see what you mean, but my girl is getting attached a the "names". God, she got attached to exclamation mark on MSN when I say "Hey!". One day she got all sad about it when I didn't use it as it implied I wasn't as excited to see her online. Grow up.

Who's willing to put money on this last over a month? :eek:

[JasonRox]

Im not talking about playfull 'do you love me' banter. Im talking about guys that ask this question - seriously to their gfs.

The same way girls say 'do I look pretty' and mean it because they have no self confidence.

I have one friend who lets his gf run him around. He's literally her b****. Im like man, she says jump and you say how high. Its really pathetic. I know hes the kind of guy to say things like that to her.

If she would playfully ask me 'do you love me', I playfully say 'no, I dont'. But I never say im just joking afterwards.

Side: To clear things up. When I give reverse answers. I dont say 'no I dont' in a mean tone. I playfully say the opposite of what she wants to hear. But I never clear it up by saying afterwards 'oh, im just kidding'. I just leave it as an open ended statement.

LOL!

Like the...

Am I the hottest girl ever?

My response was... "Are you CRAZY!? Did you walk down the hallways at school!?"

Haha!

[rootX]

. Missed a concert because she just kept crying about ********. It's like get over it.



That's so common among girls: damn annoying and disgusting - but I don't know who should be blamed.

I see it so often in my university and I hate those (immature couples)!

[JasonRox]

That's so common among girls: damn annoying and disgusting - but I don't know who should be blamed.

I see it so often in my university and I hate those (immature couples)!

The thing is she keeps trying to put herself on to me in front of other girls. Wants to put me in relationship status on Facebook, says all the girls I know are stupid. If I hang out with a girl I just met, apparently that's weird. I told her that's why I will never invite her out with friends I meet because her attitude is negative and it better change.

I'm dropping a bombshell into the relationship. The relationship will remain open since being exclusive is pretty dumb. We were open for awhile last year and it was fine. She just thought too much all the time. She suggested it too. Weird.

Note: I'm not trying to get this thread out of hand either. I'll try to be better from now on. I don't want it locked because someone feels uncomfortable with the discussion. If some people do feel uncomfortable, maybe put a disclaimer in the opening post. Talking about relationships is a healthy thing and to lock the thread because of it would be silly. Most PFers respect each others opinion, so it's a good place to talk about relationships which play a large role in our lives. Let's be open about it.

[Moonbear]

My girl is currently being EXTREMELY CLINGY.

When I've been in bad relationships, yep, that's how it feels. Instead of finding your partner's actions or words cute and endearing, they're annoying and grating. Whenever it starts feeling that way to me, I put an end to it, because it never gets better once you start feeling that way.

[JasonRox]

When I've been in bad relationships, yep, that's how it feels. Instead of finding your partner's actions or words cute and endearing, they're annoying and grating. Whenever it starts feeling that way to me, I put an end to it, because it never gets better once you start feeling that way.

I know what you mean. We had that problem before and it did get better. I'm not sure what happened now. She's trying to plan the future and that jazz, and I'm just like no. It all happened when I said that I don't want to get married and I don't want kids anytime soon. She keeps pointing at the guy I "used" to be.

I guess it is time to end it.

Note: She knows I don't agree with being exclusive. I think it's making it difficult for her and she's basically trying to protect me from girls or something. Oh, and her sex drive is WAY too high. My roommate and I shared a room and I put it on speaker (cellphone) and who could hear our conversations. He noticed that she mentionned sex a lot! Dang! I hated it. It killed my sex drive for like a month one time and I thought I had ED (scary because a very attractive girl I was dancing with couldn't get it up, "we are open" don't forget).

[Jordan Joab]

I know what you mean. We had that problem before and it did get better. I'm not sure what happened now. She's trying to plan the future and that jazz, and I'm just like no. It all happened when I said that I don't want to get married and I don't want kids anytime soon. She keeps pointing at the guy I "used" to be.

I guess it is time to end it.

Note: She knows I don't agree with being exclusive. I think it's making it difficult for her and she's basically trying to protect me from girls or something. Oh, and her sex drive is WAY too high. My roommate and I shared a room and I put it on speaker (cellphone) and who could hear our conversations. He noticed that she mentionned sex a lot! Dang! I hated it. It killed my sex drive for like a month one time and I thought I had ED (scary because a very attractive girl I was dancing with couldn't get it up, "we are open" don't forget).

:bugeye: :surprised :confused: :mad: :frown: :cry:

[DaveC426913]

I know what you mean. We had that problem before and it did get better. I'm not sure what happened now. She's trying to plan the future and that jazz, and I'm just like no. It all happened when I said that I don't want to get married and I don't want kids anytime soon. She keeps pointing at the guy I "used" to be.


Funny how time can change things. I remember when you first joined, one of the first posts I read from you, you were saying you reeeeeally wanted to find a girl who would appreciate you and you were looking for advice and we were trynig to assure you that the right girl would come along if you were patient. IIRC, you were just barely sixteen or so.

Ah the memories. Brings a tear to my eye.

o:)

I went looking for that post, but I don't think it comes up in a search anymore.

[Moonbear]

I know what you mean. We had that problem before and it did get better. I'm not sure what happened now. She's trying to plan the future and that jazz, and I'm just like no. It all happened when I said that I don't want to get married and I don't want kids anytime soon. She keeps pointing at the guy I "used" to be.

I guess it is time to end it.

Probably. That's the stage when too many people cave in to the pressure and get married, then wind up divorced a few years later. If she's pointing at who you "used" to be, then you've grown apart. Again, that happens, and there's no point in forcing the issue. That, or she fell for who she perceived you to be rather than who you really are, and still, that's just not a good recipe for a long term relationship.

[JasonRox]

:bugeye: :surprised :confused: :mad: :frown: :cry:

I'm serious!

Yesterday, and this morning, I flat out refuse sex. I told her ahead of time too so that she wouldn't try. She tried anyways, but I was like... it won't work. It's just like... stop for one damn day. I could have sex everyday, but not all day everyday. Like, we go for a drive, she puts her hand you know where, we go shopping "Grab my ***. I like it.", we go to the beach "Grab my boobs and..." in the water. Like seriously!!! I'm getting frustrasted just thinking about it.

The sex is great don't get me wrong. Sometimes I just want to relax and you know, drive like a normal relaxed person, go shopping like a normal relaxed person, and go to the beach and have non-sexual fun.

[Jordan Joab]

I'm serious!

Yesterday, and this morning, I flat out refuse sex. I told her ahead of time too so that she wouldn't try. She tried anyways, but I was like... it won't work. It's just like... stop for one damn day. I could have sex everyday, but not all day everyday. Like, we go for a drive, she puts her hand you know where, we go shopping "Grab my ***. I like it.", we go to the beach "Grab my boobs and..." in the water. Like seriously!!! I'm getting frustrasted just thinking about it.

The sex is great don't get me wrong. Sometimes I just want to relax and you know, drive like a normal relaxed person, go shopping like a normal relaxed person, and go to the beach and have non-sexual fun.

I hate you.

[lisab]

Jordan - "I'm starving to death!!!!"

Jason - "I'm being fed to death!!!"

And I really feel bad for both of you :frown: .

[JasonRox]

Funny how time can change things. I remember when you first joined, one of the first posts I read from you, you were saying you reeeeeally wanted to find a girl who would appreciate you and you were looking for advice and we were trynig to assure you that the right girl would come along if you were patient. IIRC, you were just barely sixteen or so.

Ah the memories. Brings a tear to my eye.

o:)

I went looking for that post, but I don't think it comes up in a search anymore.

You can't find it because I never posted anything like that. :P

I remember posting about how great my girl was. I really liked her take charge attitude. Now, I just see her doing nothing with her life and looking for me to fulfill hers. I refuse to. I made really good friends at school and she hasn't met them. I told her that I wouldn't let her because of her negative attitude towards any new friends. So closed minded.

I haven't been impressed lately as you can tell.

[Math Is Hard]

If only Jordan and Jason could trade bodies for a few days like in Freaky Friday.

[JasonRox]

I hate you.

Hey man, I even told her she could have sex with other guys if she wanted to. Just too much for me.

Most guys say they can go all day, but really after like 3-5 times it's annoying.

[JasonRox]

If only Jordan and Jason could trade bodies for a few days like in Freaky Friday.

LOL!

I wouldn't mind. :biggrin:

[Moonbear]

I'm serious!

Yesterday, and this morning, I flat out refuse sex. I told her ahead of time too so that she wouldn't try. She tried anyways, but I was like... it won't work. It's just like... stop for one damn day. I could have sex everyday, but not all day everyday. Like, we go for a drive, she puts her hand you know where, we go shopping "Grab my ***. I like it.", we go to the beach "Grab my boobs and..." in the water. Like seriously!!! I'm getting frustrasted just thinking about it.

The sex is great don't get me wrong. Sometimes I just want to relax and you know, drive like a normal relaxed person, go shopping like a normal relaxed person, and go to the beach and have non-sexual fun.

:rofl: Send your girlfriend to Jordan.

I've never heard a guy complain about too much sex before. Really. I mean, I understand, most women would probably understand, and I'll bet other guys do too, but none of them would ever admit it. But, yeah, as great as sex is, there needs to be more to a relationship than that or the sex just starts to feel cheap.

[Moonbear]

Most guys say they can go all day...

Most guys exaggerate. I think their estimate of stamina is regulated by the same gene that they use to estimate the size of their penis and the size of the fish that got away. :wink:

[JasonRox]

:rofl: Send your girlfriend to Jordan.

I've never heard a guy complain about too much sex before. Really. I mean, I understand, most women would probably understand, and I'll bet other guys do too, but none of them would ever admit it. But, yeah, as great as sex is, there needs to be more to a relationship than that or the sex just starts to feel cheap.

I want sex a lot. Just not constant like she does. Also, I guess I want other girls too. :smile:

Just that I notice the sex she wants is sometimes associated to feelings about whether I want her or not. I want sex for sex and that's it. She's attaching a lot of symbolism to everything I noticed. Like a high school girl would.

[Jordan Joab]

:rofl:

Even though I don't get as much as I'd love to I must admit whenever I do get it, it is freaking great!:biggrin:

Plus, I've told my wife this: You are like underwear, I don't share you with my buddies

[Jordan Joab]

Most guys exaggerate. I think their estimate of stamina is regulated by the same gene that they use to estimate the size of their penis and the size of the fish that got away. :wink:

Hey! HEY!





You are right.:tongue:

[JasonRox]

:rofl:

Even though I don't get as much as I'd love to I must admit whenever I do get it, it is freaking great!:biggrin:

Plus, I've told my wife this: You are like underwear, I don't share you with my buddies

I don't believe in ownership onto others. I don't share because that implies ownership also.

[Moonbear]

I want sex a lot. Just not constant like she does. Also, I guess I want other girls too. :smile:

Just that I notice the sex she wants is sometimes associated to feelings about whether I want her or not. I want sex for sex and that's it. She's attaching a lot of symbolism to everything I noticed. Like a high school girl would.

It sounds like she's ready for an exclusive relationship, and you're not.

[turbo]

:rofl: Send your girlfriend to Jordan.

I've never heard a guy complain about too much sex before. Really. I mean, I understand, most women would probably understand, and I'll bet other guys do too, but none of them would ever admit it. But, yeah, as great as sex is, there needs to be more to a relationship than that or the sex just starts to feel cheap.Sex needs to be fun and it needs to be fulfilling for both of you. When one or the other sets goals re: sex, it may be time to back off and take a look at your relationship. Sex is a small facet in the inter-social melding that you'll use to bond to another. It may be a strong attraction early on, but other attractions (and annoyances) will emerge later, and that's where infidelity, lying, etc start sliding in. Be honest with your lover.

[Jordan Joab]

Sex needs to be fun and it needs to be fulfilling for both of you. When one or the other sets goals re: sex, it may be time to back off and take a look at your relationship. Sex is a small facet in the inter-social melding that you'll use to bond to another. It may be a strong attraction early on, but other attractions (and annoyances) will emerge later, and that's where infidelity, lying, etc start sliding in. Be honest with your lover.

Sex is the only way you can express your love to your partner. You can usually express your love to parents, friends, co-workers, etc. in many different ways but sex is only restricted to your partner, as it should be.

I'll pass on cuddling, giggling, holding hands, and all that "fruity" stuff any day (granted, I still have to do it not as an obligation but because I still care about my wife).

Fornication, ****ing, etc. is an entirely different subject and something I'm not into. I read somewhere 1 in 4 Americans have herpes. **** that.

[JasonRox]

Sex is the only way you can express your love to your partner. You can usually express your love to parents, friends, co-workers, etc. in many different ways but sex is only restricted to your partner, as it should be.

I'll pass on cuddling, giggling, holding hands, and all that "fruity" stuff any day (granted, I still have to do it not as an obligation but because I still care about my wife).

Fornication, ****ing, etc. is an entirely different subject and something I'm not into. I read somewhere 1 in 4 Americans have herpes. **** that.

I disagree that sex is the only way to express love to your partner.

[Jordan Joab]

I disagree that sex is the only way to express love to your partner.

I didn't type that correctly.

Sex is the only form of love expression you can share with a wife/fiancee/girlfriend that you truly care about.

[JasonRox]

It sounds like she's ready for an exclusive relationship, and you're not.

Of course I'm not ready for an exclusive relationship! It makes no sense to me. :smile:

Most of my friends and people I meet know I'm not like that (exclusive) and I never had any problems. Still have interests from girls that would date me and take me seriously. It's not a joke. It takes responsibility. I won't just go and sleep with anyone. It's not what it's about. I had a very very very attractive girl follow me to my apartment one night and I told her to go home. I was not interested. My friends ragged on me for like 2 weeks about it. She wasn't my type so I wasn't interested in starting anything with such a girl. Plus, I have to respect other girls I might be seeing by not sleeping with anyone because of the risk of STD's. But sleeping with other people does not mean I disrespect them and them sleeping with others does not mean they disrespect me. I don't think that way at all. Very difficult to explain online. I apologize and I refuse to go further about it. Avoid trying to "correct" my views since I can't even explain them.

[JasonRox]

I didn't type that correctly.

Sex is the only form of love expression you can share with a wife/fiancee/girlfriend that you truly care about.

That's what you believe.

Sleeping with others does not mean you do not care about the girl/girls you are with. You're connection with another person is indepedent of the connection you have with another girl. So it makes no sense at all that actions taken with one girl has any meaning with regards to a different girl. They are completely independent!

[Jordan Joab]

Of course I'm not ready for an exclusive relationship! It makes no sense to me. :smile:

Most of my friends and people I meet no I'm not like that and I never had any problems. Still have interests from girls that would date me and take me seriously. It's not a joke. It takes responsibility. I won't just go and sleep with anyone. It's not what it's about. I had a very very very attractive girl follow me to my apartment one night and I told her to go home. I was not interested. My friends ragged on me for like 2 weeks about it. She wasn't my type so I wasn't interested in starting anything with such a girl. Plus, I have to respect other girls I might be seeing by not sleeping with anyone because of the risk of STD's. But sleeping with other people does not mean I disrespect them and them sleeping with others does not mean they disrespect me. I don't think that way at all. Very difficult to explain online. I apologize and I refuse to go further about it. Avoid trying to "correct" my views since I can't even explain them.

Tom Brady, is that you?

[rootX]

I didn't type that correctly.

Sex is the only form of love expression you can share with a wife/fiancee/girlfriend that you truly care about.

To me, now this is love
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zpmjs7_SZJo

I don't think that happens in reality :shy: :cry:

[Jordan Joab]

That's what you believe.

Sleeping with others does not mean you do not care about the girl/girls you are with. You're connection with another person is indepedent of the connection you have with another girl. So it makes no sense at all that actions taken with one girl has any meaning with regards to a different girl. They are completely independent!

Millions of ex-wifes disagree with you. And since I'm not a rookie, I'll have to agree with the chicks.

[Moonbear]

Avoid trying to "correct" my views since I can't even explain them.

Not sure if that was aimed toward me or just in general. I wasn't trying to correct your views, I think I was just stating the obvious (sometimes it's not obvious to someone in the middle of a relationship). There's nothing wrong with not being ready for (or not ever wanting) an exclusive relationship. It's only a problem if one half wants one thing and the other half wants another if they are not compatible.

I've done the "one-night-stand" thing when younger...though, not quite the usual way with a total stranger. It was with a friend of a friend I ran into at several parties and get-togethers. We were both going through a "dry spell" and really just wanted no-strings-attached sex. We were actually both worried the other might read more into it, so sat down and talked about it first. We made sure we both fully understood that it was a very specific physical need/desire we were taking care of and that we very well may never speak again afterward, and nobody was going to be upset if that's what happened. He was physically very attractive, but our personalities clashed, so I knew nothing could ever come of it. It served its purpose, though not nearly as good as when there are other feelings to go with it. No regrets, which was important and the point of talking it over first. It's really important to be sure that one person isn't expecting something different than the other in a situation like that or someone's going to be hurt. If you can't sit down and discuss it first, then it's best just not to do it.

[Moonbear]

Millions of ex-wifes disagree with you.
I think you're missing the point that Jason isn't promising any form of commitment. It's different if you're married, which implies exclusivity. He's not promising that, and making it pretty clear that marriage ISN'T on his to-do list. If one is into the idea of open relationships, then marriage simply makes no sense.

[JasonRox]

Not sure if that was aimed toward me or just in general. I wasn't trying to correct your views, I think I was just stating the obvious (sometimes it's not obvious to someone in the middle of a relationship). There's nothing wrong with not being ready for (or not ever wanting) an exclusive relationship. It's only a problem if one half wants one thing and the other half wants another if they are not compatible.

I've done the "one-night-stand" thing when younger...though, not quite the usual way with a total stranger. It was with a friend of a friend I ran into at several parties and get-togethers. We were both going through a "dry spell" and really just wanted no-strings-attached sex. We were actually both worried the other might read more into it, so sat down and talked about it first. We made sure we both fully understood that it was a very specific physical need/desire we were taking care of and that we very well may never speak again afterward, and nobody was going to be upset if that's what happened. He was physically very attractive, but our personalities clashed, so I knew nothing could ever come of it. It served its purpose, though not nearly as good as when there are other feelings to go with it. No regrets, which was important and the point of talking it over first. It's really important to be sure that one person isn't expecting something different than the other in a situation like that or someone's going to be hurt. If you can't sit down and discuss it first, then it's best just not to do it.

Oh no! Not you!

I didn't read the whole post yet. Just had to clear that up.

[Jordan Joab]

I think you're missing the point that Jason isn't promising any form of commitment. It's different if you're married, which implies exclusivity. He's not promising that, and making it pretty clear that marriage ISN'T on his to-do list. If one is into the idea of open relationships, then marriage simply makes no sense.

Fair enough. So, open relationships should have no drama, yes? Man, that sounds like a great deal!

[JasonRox]

I think you're missing the point that Jason isn't promising any form of commitment. It's different if you're married, which implies exclusivity. He's not promising that, and making it pretty clear that marriage ISN'T on his to-do list. If one is into the idea of open relationships, then marriage simply makes no sense.

Thank you. :smile:

[JasonRox]

Fair enough. So, open relationships should have no drama, yes? Man, that sounds like a great deal!

No, that's a naive approach to open relationships which is why it has such a bad connotations and reputation.

Just like any relationship, communication is important.

[Cyrus]

Jordan - "I'm starving to death!!!!"

Jason - "I'm being fed to death!!!"

And I really feel bad for both of you :frown: .

OMG. and the PF funniest member award goes to..........<drumroll>

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

[rewebster]

that is pretty funny---the Goldilocks Syndrome