View Full Version : The Nature of "Now"
James D Jones
Jan9-09, 06:00 AM
Hello Folks,
I have been monitoring this forum for a while and think this might be
the place to ask for help. I am not a professional physicist but I have
a BS in physics so I know a bit of the language.
I have been thinking about the nature of "now". What happens at that
boundary called "now" between an unknowable future where systems,
including the universe as a whole, have an enormous number of possible
states and an unchangeable past characterized by the single state in
which the universe was caught as "now" swept by?
In my mind I divide all state changes into active and passive. Passive
state changes are those that occur in following Nature's preferred path,
like a satellite in orbit following a spacetime geodesic. Active state
changes are those that are caused by the action of an external agent,
like a photon imparting momentum to an electron.
It seems to me that in the case of passive state changes the principle
of maximal aging or equivalent stationary principle pre-determines the
future state for all time, absent interference by an active state
change. In the case of active state changes I think that as "now"
approaches any future time, the shrinking spatial volume of the past
null cone at every point in space isolates more and more potential
external agents, ultimately reducing the number of states possible to a
single state. That sounds like quantum state reduction to me.
I came here because I would like some expert advice on whether these
notions make sense.
Thanks for any help.
James D Jones
jdj@mcanv.com
nelldanny@webmail.co.za
Jan10-09, 06:00 AM
[ Mod. note: I would like to preemptively point out that the philosophy
of existence is off topic in this newsgroup. Please keep the discussion
centered on physical phenomena. -ik ]
On Jan 8, 10:41*pm, "James D Jones" <jdjo...@ptd.net> wrote:
> Hello Folks,
>
> I have been monitoring this forum for a while and think this might be
> the place to ask for help. *I am not a professional physicist but I have
> a BS in physics so I know a bit of the language.
>
> I have been thinking about the nature of "now". *What happens at that
> boundary called "now" between an unknowable future where systems,
> including the universe as a whole, have an enormous number of possible
> states and an unchangeable past characterized by the single state in
> which the universe was caught as "now" swept by?
>
> In my mind I divide all state changes into active and passive. Passive
> state changes are those that occur in following Nature's preferred path,
> like a satellite in orbit following a spacetime geodesic. *Active state
> changes are those that are caused by the action of an external agent,
> like a photon imparting momentum to an electron.
>
> It seems to me that in the case of passive state changes the principle
> of maximal aging or equivalent stationary principle pre-determines the
> future state for all time, absent interference by an active state
> change. In the case of active state changes I think that as "now"
> approaches any future time, the shrinking spatial volume of the past
> null cone at every point in space isolates more and more potential
> external agents, ultimately reducing the number of states possible to a
> single state. That sounds like quantum state reduction to me.
>
> I came here because I would like some expert advice on whether these
> notions make sense.
>
> Thanks for any help.
>
> James D Jones
> j...@mcanv.com
I see what you mean when you speak of a quantum state reduction but
only intuitively and seriously on that note how does one even perceive
a "now", with the little "" of course, sure we perceive now precisely
because of the limitations of
the human condition to clarify
only because we evolved on Earth, with a finite size, made of a large
but finite number of atoms, with a finite but moderate temperature,
electrically neutral, large
compared with a black hole of our same mass, large compared with our
quantum mechanical
wavelength, small compared with the universe, with a limited memory,
forced
by our brain to approximate space and time as continuous entities, and
forced by our
brain to describe nature as made of different parts. And in this
context do your enquiries make sense, all of these not being my
observation though, but still valid thanks for hearing me out I am
certainly not an expert but I hope you can reply back, tachyons a
go ....
James D Jones
Jan10-09, 06:00 AM
[[Mod. note --
A3: Please.
Q3: Should I avoid top posting on this newsgroup?
A2: Because, by reversing the order of a conversation, it leaves the
reader without much context, and makes them read a message in an
unnatural order.
Q2: Why is top posting irritating?
A1: It is the practice of putting your reply to a message before the
quoted message, instead of after the (trimmed) message.
Q1: What is top posting?
-- jt]]
I forgot to mention that I have expanded of these ideas at
http://www.mcanv.Now if anyone wants more details.
Regards to all,
James D Jones
"James D Jones" <jdjones@ptd.net> wrote in message
news:06qdnVVBfP2ymPvUnZ2dnUVZ_uidnZ2d@ptd.net...
[[Mod. note -- Excessive quoted text snipped.]]
> I have been thinking about the nature of "now". What happens at that
> boundary called "now" between an unknowable future where systems,
> including the universe as a whole, have an enormous number of possible
> states and an unchangeable past characterized by the single state in
> which the universe was caught as "now" swept by?
[[Mod. note -- More excessive quoted text snipped.]]
On Jan 8, 10:41M-BM- pm, "James D Jones" <jdjo...@ptd.net> wrote:
[[Mod. note -- Excessive quoted text deleted. -- jt]]
> I have been thinking about the nature of "now". M-BM- What happens at that
> boundary called "now" between an unknowable future where systems,
> including the universe as a whole, have an enormous number of possible
> states and an unchangeable past characterized by the single state in
> which the universe was caught as "now" swept by?
[[Mod. note -- More excessive quoted text deleted. -- jt]]
What is maximal ageing
thank you
Jon
Tom Roberts
Jan10-09, 06:00 AM
James D Jones wrote:
> [...]
It's clear to me that the whole concept "now" is a purely human artifact
of the way our minds perceive the world. Nature clearly uses no "now" --
natural processes at location A happen however they do, LOCALLY, and
processes at location B happen however they do, LOCALLY, etc. There is
no relationship whatsoever between the processes at A and at B, except
when the processes at A happen to emit an object that happens to be
transported to location to B by all of the processes along its path from
A to B, in which case the object participates in the processes at B when
it arrives there [#]. There is no "now" in that....
[#] This is phrased in classical style. Quantum phenomena
require a conceptual leap that would re-phrase this
significantly; that's non-trivial....
This is summed up in aphorisms like "All physics is local." [attribution
lost]
This is reflected in modern theories of physics in several ways:
* by the arbitrariness of coordinate systems, including the time
coordinate (which determines "now" throughout space)
* by writing theories as differential equations (which are
inherently local)
* by writing theories as tensor equations (independent of
those arbitrary human coordinates)
One of the serious challenges going forward, probably related to the
difficulties of quantum gravity, is the inherent use of location in my
first paragraph. This, too, seems to be an artifact of how we humans
perceive the world, and I doubt that nature uses "location" either....
It's straightforward to avoid the "now" of our perceptions with the
concept of locality; it's not so easy to avoid the "here"....
Tom Roberts
James D Jones
Jan10-09, 06:00 AM
[[Mod. note --
A3: Please.
Q3: Should I avoid top posting on this newsgroup?
A2: Because, by reversing the order of a conversation, it leaves the
reader without much context, and makes them read a message in an
unnatural order.
Q2: Why is top posting irritating?
A1: It is the practice of putting your reply to a message before the
quoted message, instead of after the (trimmed) message.
Q1: What is top posting?
-- jt]]
I am afraid I am not qualified to address the wide range of subjects you
(nelldanny) brought up. In fact all I am trying to do here is to verify my
understanding of the physical phenomena involved in the passage of the
past/future boundary through any given time currently on the future side of
that boundary. For anyone interested, I have expanded on the brief summary
posted here of that understanding. See http://www.mcanv.com/Now.
James D Jones
<nelldanny@webmail.co.za> wrote in message
news:ff268c70-aaf0-42b3-926c-72063cb0b468@p36g2000prp.googlegroups.com...
[[Mod. note -- Much excessively-quoted text deleted. -- jt]]
> I see what you mean when you speak of a quantum state reduction but
> only intuitively and seriously on that note how does one even perceive
> a "now", with the little "" of course, sure we perceive now precisely
> because of the limitations of
> the human condition to clarify
> only because we evolved on Earth, with a finite size, made of a large
> but finite number of atoms, with a finite but moderate temperature,
> electrically neutral, large
> compared with a black hole of our same mass, large compared with our
> quantum mechanical
> wavelength, small compared with the universe, with a limited memory,
> forced
> by our brain to approximate space and time as continuous entities, and
> forced by our
> brain to describe nature as made of different parts. And in this
> context do your enquiries make sense, all of these not being my
> observation though, but still valid thanks for hearing me out I am
> certainly not an expert but I hope you can reply back, tachyons a
> go ....
>
Arnold Neumaier
Jan12-09, 06:00 AM
James D Jones schrieb:
>
> I have been thinking about the nature of "now". What happens at that
> boundary called "now" between an unknowable future where systems,
> including the universe as a whole, have an enormous number of possible
> states and an unchangeable past characterized by the single state in
> which the universe was caught as "now" swept by?
Now is what exists. The past is conjecture made up by memories in the
now, the future is conjecture made up by extrapolation from the memory.
But ''now'' is not a concept of physics. Physics is about organizing the
collective memory into patterns that allow a reliable extrapolation.
> In my mind I divide all state changes into active and passive. Passive
> state changes are those that occur in following Nature's preferred path,
This notion of a preferred path needs to be made precise before it
can become physics.
> like a satellite in orbit following a spacetime geodesic. Active state
> changes are those that are caused by the action of an external agent,
> like a photon imparting momentum to an electron.
Apart from God, there are no external agents in Nature.
For those who don't believe in God, there are no no external agents
at all.
Arnold Neumaier
On Jan 11, 11:03*am, Arnold Neumaier <Arnold.Neuma...@univie.ac.at>
wrote:
>
> Now is what exists. The past is conjecture made up by memories in the
> now, the future is conjecture made up by extrapolation from the memory.
>
> Arnold Neumaier
If the observer is willing to put a little effort into it, the past
can be reconstructed quite accurately with various types of
recordings, photographs, written records, oral reports, etc. Not a
perfect reconstruction, to be sure, but for all practical purposes, a
very good one.
The future is very much more of a matter of "conjecture". We can
predict what is likely to happen, with varying degrees of confidence
(depending on the type of system) over varying lengths of time
(planetary motion:very long times; weather: a few days) based on how
the system has behaved in the past and its location/state "now".
I would just emphasize that our reconstructions of the past, in
general and in principle, can be quite a bit more than subjective
conjecture. The predicting the future is better described as
conjecture, although with enough effort and the right type of system,
we do remarkably well.
Yours in science,
Robert L. Oldershaw
www.amherst.edu/~rloldershaw
James D Jones
Jan14-09, 06:00 AM
[[Mod. note --
A3: Please.
Q3: Should I avoid top posting on this newsgroup?
A2: Because, by reversing the order of a conversation, it leaves the
reader without much context, and makes them read a message in an
unnatural order.
Q2: Why is top posting irritating?
A1: It is the practice of putting your reply to a message before the
quoted message, instead of after the (trimmed) message.
Q1: What is top posting?
-- jt]]
I forgot to mention that I have expanded of these ideas at
http://www.mcanv.Now if anyone wants more details.
Regards to all,
James D Jones
"James D Jones" <jdjones@ptd.net> wrote in message
news:06qdnVVBfP2ymPvUnZ2dnUVZ_uidnZ2d@ptd.net...
[[Mod. note -- Excessive quoted text snipped.]]
> I have been thinking about the nature of "now". What happens at that
> boundary called "now" between an unknowable future where systems,
> including the universe as a whole, have an enormous number of possible
> states and an unchangeable past characterized by the single state in
> which the universe was caught as "now" swept by?
[[Mod. note -- More excessive quoted text snipped.]]
James D Jones
Jan14-09, 06:00 AM
"Arnold Neumaier" <Arnold.Neumaier@univie.ac.at> wrote in message
news:gkd57n$4ri$1@fb07-hees.theo.physik.uni-giessen.de...
>
> Now is what exists. The past is conjecture made up by memories in the
> now, the future is conjecture made up by extrapolation from the memory.
>
> But ''now'' is not a concept of physics. Physics is about organizing the
> collective memory into patterns that allow a reliable extrapolation.
Thank you for responding to my post. I have included more detail than
would be appropriate for a post in this forum at http://mcanv.com/Now.
The link might help you help me improve my understanding if you are
willing to read it and comment.
"Reliable extrapolation" seems to me to imply an effort to predict the
future, at least in a limited way. It is my understanding that to
predict a future state of a satellite in Earth orbit, its position and
velocity relative to a point on Earth at midnight tonight for example,
requires only knowledge of its current position and velocity and the
application of the appropriate physical principle.
To make that prediction now, at 9:00 PM, leaves open the possibility
that many events originating outside the Earty-satellite system may
happen to spoil that prediction. Meteorite strikes, shoot-down by a
Tunesian rocket, whatever. The probability that our prediction will be
correct increases with each minute that passes without such a disruptive
event. Ultimately as the current instant gets very close to midnight the
probability that our prediction is correct rises to unity. It is my
hypothesis that this advance of time reduces the probability of all the
possible alternative states of the system until at midnight the actual
state is realized. My basic question is, is this true and if so is it
trivial, or a potentially useful way of thinking about how an array of
possible system states are collapsed to an actual state.
>> In my mind I divide all state changes into active and passive. Passive
>> state changes are those that occur in following Nature's preferred path,
>
> This notion of a preferred path needs to be made precise before it
> can become physics.
I had in mind here the path predicted by least action or maximal aging,
or possibly that predicted by quantum state vector unitary evolution.
>> like a satellite in orbit following a spacetime geodesic. Active state
>> changes are those that are caused by the action of an external agent,
>> like a photon imparting momentum to an electron.
>
> Apart from God, there are no external agents in Nature.
> For those who don't believe in God, there are no no external agents
> at all.
I must agree if the system under consideration is the universe as a
whole. For any lesser system definition something must be left over to
be external.
James D Jones
Jan14-09, 06:00 AM
"Knecht" <rloldershaw@amherst.edu> wrote in message
news:b0a21b3b-2691-4452-aeab-c472f51697bb@e18g2000yqo.googlegroups.com...
> On Jan 11, 11:03 am, Arnold Neumaier <Arnold.Neuma...@univie.ac.at>
> wrote:
>
> If the observer is willing to put a little effort into it, the past
> can be reconstructed quite accurately with various types of
> recordings, photographs, written records, oral reports, etc. Not a
> perfect reconstruction, to be sure, but for all practical purposes, a
> very good one.
>
> The future is very much more of a matter of "conjecture". We can
> predict what is likely to happen, with varying degrees of confidence
> (depending on the type of system) over varying lengths of time
> (planetary motion:very long times; weather: a few days) based on how
> the system has behaved in the past and its location/state "now".
>
> I would just emphasize that our reconstructions of the past, in
> general and in principle, can be quite a bit more than subjective
> conjecture. The predicting the future is better described as
> conjecture, although with enough effort and the right type of system,
> we do remarkably well.
Thank you for joining this thread. I am trying to improve my
understanding of what happens at the boundary between past and future so
I initiated this conversation. Your explanation of past and future
confirms my notion of how we deal with them. Can you address the
duration of the present, which I suspect is vanishingly short? Also I
would appreciate it if your could find time to read some notes I have
left at http://mcanv.com/Now and comment on any misconceptions they may
contain.
On Jan 8, 10:41M-BM- pm, "James D Jones" <jdjo...@ptd.net> wrote:
[[Mod. note -- Excessive quoted text deleted. -- jt]]
> I have been thinking about the nature of "now". M-BM- What happens at that
> boundary called "now" between an unknowable future where systems,
> including the universe as a whole, have an enormous number of possible
> states and an unchangeable past characterized by the single state in
> which the universe was caught as "now" swept by?
[[Mod. note -- More excessive quoted text deleted. -- jt]]
What is maximal ageing
thank you
Jon
Tom Roberts
Jan14-09, 06:00 AM
James D Jones wrote:
> [...]
It's clear to me that the whole concept "now" is a purely human artifact
of the way our minds perceive the world. Nature clearly uses no "now" --
natural processes at location A happen however they do, LOCALLY, and
processes at location B happen however they do, LOCALLY, etc. There is
no relationship whatsoever between the processes at A and at B, except
when the processes at A happen to emit an object that happens to be
transported to location to B by all of the processes along its path from
A to B, in which case the object participates in the processes at B when
it arrives there [#]. There is no "now" in that....
[#] This is phrased in classical style. Quantum phenomena
require a conceptual leap that would re-phrase this
significantly; that's non-trivial....
This is summed up in aphorisms like "All physics is local." [attribution
lost]
This is reflected in modern theories of physics in several ways:
* by the arbitrariness of coordinate systems, including the time
coordinate (which determines "now" throughout space)
* by writing theories as differential equations (which are
inherently local)
* by writing theories as tensor equations (independent of
those arbitrary human coordinates)
One of the serious challenges going forward, probably related to the
difficulties of quantum gravity, is the inherent use of location in my
first paragraph. This, too, seems to be an artifact of how we humans
perceive the world, and I doubt that nature uses "location" either....
It's straightforward to avoid the "now" of our perceptions with the
concept of locality; it's not so easy to avoid the "here"....
Tom Roberts
James D Jones
Jan14-09, 06:00 AM
[[Mod. note --
A3: Please.
Q3: Should I avoid top posting on this newsgroup?
A2: Because, by reversing the order of a conversation, it leaves the
reader without much context, and makes them read a message in an
unnatural order.
Q2: Why is top posting irritating?
A1: It is the practice of putting your reply to a message before the
quoted message, instead of after the (trimmed) message.
Q1: What is top posting?
-- jt]]
I am afraid I am not qualified to address the wide range of subjects you
(nelldanny) brought up. In fact all I am trying to do here is to verify my
understanding of the physical phenomena involved in the passage of the
past/future boundary through any given time currently on the future side of
that boundary. For anyone interested, I have expanded on the brief summary
posted here of that understanding. See http://www.mcanv.com/Now.
James D Jones
<nelldanny@webmail.co.za> wrote in message
news:ff268c70-aaf0-42b3-926c-72063cb0b468@p36g2000prp.googlegroups.com...
[[Mod. note -- Much excessively-quoted text deleted. -- jt]]
> I see what you mean when you speak of a quantum state reduction but
> only intuitively and seriously on that note how does one even perceive
> a "now", with the little "" of course, sure we perceive now precisely
> because of the limitations of
> the human condition to clarify
> only because we evolved on Earth, with a finite size, made of a large
> but finite number of atoms, with a finite but moderate temperature,
> electrically neutral, large
> compared with a black hole of our same mass, large compared with our
> quantum mechanical
> wavelength, small compared with the universe, with a limited memory,
> forced
> by our brain to approximate space and time as continuous entities, and
> forced by our
> brain to describe nature as made of different parts. And in this
> context do your enquiries make sense, all of these not being my
> observation though, but still valid thanks for hearing me out I am
> certainly not an expert but I hope you can reply back, tachyons a
> go ....
>
On Jan 12, 3:37*pm, "James D Jones" <jdjo...@ptd.net> wrote:
> "Knecht" <rlolders...@amherst.edu> wrote in message
>
> news:b0a21b3b-2691-4452-aeab-c472f51697bb@e18g2000yqo.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jan 11, 11:03 am, Arnold Neumaier <Arnold.Neuma...@univie.ac.at>
> > wrote:
>
> > If the observer is willing to put a little effort into it, the past
> > can be reconstructed quite accurately with various types of
> > recordings, photographs, written records, oral reports, etc. Not a
> > perfect reconstruction, to be sure, but for all practical purposes, a
> > very good one.
>
> > The future is very much more of a matter of "conjecture". We can
> > predict what is likely to happen, with varying degrees of confidence
> > (depending on the type of system) over varying lengths of time
> > (planetary motion:very long times; weather: a few days) based on how
> > the system has behaved in the past and its location/state "now".
>
> > I would just emphasize that our reconstructions of the past, in
> > general and in principle, can be quite a bit more than subjective
> > conjecture. The predicting the future is better described as
> > conjecture, although with enough effort and the right type of system,
> > we do remarkably well.
>
> Thank you for joining this thread. *I am trying to improve my
> understanding of what happens at the boundary between past and future so
> I initiated this conversation. *Your explanation of past and future
> confirms my notion of how we deal with them. *Can you address the
> duration of the present, which I suspect is vanishingly short? *Also I
> would appreciate it if your could find time to read some notes I have
> left athttp://mcanv.com/Nowand comment on any misconceptions they may
> contain.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
(1) I also view the "present" or "the now" roughly as the boundary
between the past and the future. As such I imagine that its thickness
might well be vanishingly small. The boundary, however, might also be
nondifferentiable! Moreover, different observers might define its
"position" and "velocity" differently, depending on their relative
velocities/accelerations. Come to think of it, perhaps a determined
effort to pursue these issues might lead to some very interesting
physics/natural philosophy. Not an easy subject though, and many
pitfalls.
(2) I will take a look at your linked material over the next few days
and get back to you privately if I have comments.
(3) You might want to look up GFR Ellis' essay on time, which was
placed at www.arxiv.org within the last few weeks (search Ellis in
"all" categories for "past year"). His main ideas are very much
related to the ideas you are exploring.
Yours in science,
Knecht
www.amherst.edu/~rloldershaw
Arnold Neumaier
Jan14-09, 06:00 AM
Knecht schrieb:
> On Jan 11, 11:03 am, Arnold Neumaier <Arnold.Neuma...@univie.ac.at>
> wrote:
>> Now is what exists. The past is conjecture made up by memories in the
>> now, the future is conjecture made up by extrapolation from the memory.
>>
>> Arnold Neumaier
>
>
> If the observer is willing to put a little effort into it, the past
... only very little of the past. How much can you reconstruct about
the dynamics of the material of your house before it was built?
And we only know tiny fragments of the times before written records
(a fairly permanent sort of memory) existed.
> can be reconstructed quite accurately with various types of
> recordings, photographs, written records, oral reports, etc.
This is part of the memory, and hence covered by my description.
I was not only referring to the subjective memory of a particular
person, but also to the scientific record. It consists of memories
of the past, available recorded in the now, and from it we
reconstruct what we consider to be the past.
> Not a
> perfect reconstruction, to be sure, but for all practical purposes, a
> very good one.
Very good only compared to typical expectations of what can be
reasonably done. Very bad compared to the amount of detail we can
gather about the present.
> The future is very much more of a matter of "conjecture". We can
> predict what is likely to happen, with varying degrees of confidence
> (depending on the type of system) over varying lengths of time
> (planetary motion:very long times; weather: a few days) based on how
> the system has behaved in the past and its location/state "now".
The state of a house in the past is not worse predictable as that
of the house in the future, unless you happen to have detailed
photographs of some past events.
> I would just emphasize that our reconstructions of the past, in
> general and in principle, can be quite a bit more than subjective
> conjecture.
So can be our reconstruction of the future. In both cases,
conjecture need not be more subjective than the principles applied
to get the reconstruction.
> The predicting the future is better described as
> conjecture, although with enough effort and the right type of system,
> we do remarkably well.
Arnold Neumaier
Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply
Jan14-09, 06:00 AM
In article
<b0a21b3b-2691-4452-aeab-c472f51697bb@e18g2000yqo.googlegroups.com>,
Knecht <rloldershaw@amherst.edu> writes:
> > Now is what exists. The past is conjecture made up by memories in the
> > now, the future is conjecture made up by extrapolation from the memory.
> If the observer is willing to put a little effort into it, the past
> can be reconstructed quite accurately with various types of
> recordings, photographs, written records, oral reports, etc. Not a
> perfect reconstruction, to be sure, but for all practical purposes, a
> very good one.
>
> The future is very much more of a matter of "conjecture". We can
> predict what is likely to happen, with varying degrees of confidence
> (depending on the type of system) over varying lengths of time
> (planetary motion:very long times; weather: a few days) based on how
> the system has behaved in the past and its location/state "now".
>
> I would just emphasize that our reconstructions of the past, in
> general and in principle, can be quite a bit more than subjective
> conjecture. The predicting the future is better described as
> conjecture, although with enough effort and the right type of system,
> we do remarkably well.
I think most readers of this newsgroup imagine the passage of time as
similar to moving forward in space (on a bike, in a train, whatever).
WE are MOVING toward the future. Metaphors such as "leave the past
behind" confirm this viewpoint. As Robert Pirsig points out, the (or at
least "an") ancient Greek concept of the passage of time was different
in two respects: we are facing the other direction and we are not
moving. Rather, TIME approaches US from the rear. This is a more
accurate metaphor for at least two reasons. First, if we are not
moving, then it is even more clear that we can't influence the speed of
passage (ignore the fact that this requires a "meta-time" with respect
to which the speed of the passage of time is measured). Second, as
indicated above, although we might guess what the future holds, we don't
know for sure until it arrives, while we have the past in clear view,
though detail is lost the more removed it is from now.
Let me recommend three books (quoting from an old post of mine from
about a year and a half ago):
THE NATURE OF TIME, edited by Thomas Gold. Ithaca: Cornell University
Press, 1967. This collects contributions from a collection of
philosophically interested physicists which took place at a conference.
One of the participants didn't want to be mentioned by name, so he
appears as "Mr. X". These days, especially with the internet, it is not
hard to find out who (very probably) Mr. X was, but it might be
interesting to read the book first and then find out afterwards (thus, I
hope the moderators will prevent any spoilers from appearing in the
followups!).
Another interesting book is TIME TRAVEL: TIME TRAVEL IN PHYSICS,
METAPHYSICS AND SCIENCE FICTION by Paul J. Nahin. New York, American
Institute of Physics, 1993. ISBN 0-88318-935-6. (Any author who
dedicates his book not only to his wife but also to his "splendid cat,
Heaviside", has to be worth reading.) This is one of the few books on
my "must read again" list (not that others are not worthy, but this is
so full of information that it is impossible not to forget enough until
the next reading to make it worthwile to read it again). It is also
full of pithy aphorisms (mostly quotations). As the title implies, the
focus is on time travel, but there is more than enough stuff about the
philosophy of time in general and its relation to physics (anyone who
understands time travel has to understand time first).
Of course, no discussion on the physics and philosophy of time would be
complete without mentioning Roger Penrose and his ideas on entropy,
initial conditions of the universe, the various arrows of time, and
Ricci and Weyl curvature. My impression is that, while few people have
actually delved into this in detail, those who have generally agree that
Penrose raises some very interesting issues, even if they don't agree
with Penrose as to how these should be resolved. Check out his THE ROAD
TO REALITY: A COMPLETE GUIDE TO THE LAWS OF THE UNIVERSE.
Rock Brentwood
Jan15-09, 06:00 AM
James D Jones wrote:
> I have been monitoring this forum for a while and think this might be
> the place to ask for help. I am not a professional physicist but I have
> a BS in physics so I know a bit of the language.
>
> I have been thinking about the nature of "now".
Then I'll add in something that will make the thinking a lot more
interesting (for both you and others who read this).
There is no "now" in Relativistic Physics. The best way to see this as
follows. When you try to combine General Relativity with the Canonical
approach to quantization, the result you end up with is that the
diffeomorphism-invariance of the underlying theory gets in the way and
makes the evolving Schoredinger state completely timeless. The Wheeler-
DeWitt equation completely loses any sense of time and time flow.
This is the modern formulation and embedding of the Zeno Paradox,
itself, into the very foundation of General Relativity (under the
guise of canonical quantization).
This is the Problem of Time.
On the last parenthetical remark, I'm not even sure if this has
anything specifically to do with quantum theory, itself! There is also
such a thing as the "Schroedinger" and "Heisenberg" picture in
Classical Physics. So, if you were to carry out the analogous exercise
at the classical level, you may STILL end up getting something like a
classical version of the Wheeler-DeWitt equation, whic ls an
"evolving" state which simply does not evolve at all, but is timeless.
That is, I think there's even a classical version of the Problem of
Time.
This is but one of two aspects of the Problem of Time that are little-
noted or commented upon. The other aspect underscores that this has
nothing to do with quantum gravity, itself. That is, the Problem of
Time is NOT something intrinsic to the enterprise of trying to combine
a physical theory of gravity with quantum theory.
The aspect is this: if you try and carry out the same exercise with
Newtonian gravity -- no problem. The gravity field is represented by a
potential, and you simply write out the Schroedinger equation for it.
The states evolve in time.
So, what this tells you is that something intrinsic to non-
Relativistic physics was lost when going over to Relativistic physics;
and that what was lost is also the missing element whose absence is
responsible for the emergence of the Problem of Time.
In other words -- the Problem of Time is not a flaw endemic to quantum
theory or to any prospective theory of quantum gravity. It's a flaw
contained in the very structure of Relativity, itself!
In the process of going over from non-Relativistic to Relativistic
physics, an important ingredient was lost. Looking at it another way:
when we trying to pull off the inductive process of inverting the
correspondence limit (a process we may call "Relativization",
analogous to how we "Quantize" a classical system by reversing the
classical limit (h-bar -> 0)), what we end up with does NOT return
back to the original starting point when we take the classical limit.
What was lost in going from (Classical -> Relativistic -> Classical)
is none other than the sense of a "now".
To put it in most direct terms possible -- Relativistic physics, as it
is currently formulated does not actually have a valid correspondence
limit to Non-Relativistic physics. If we were to carry out the
exercise of inverting the correspondence limit, we would NOT end up
with Relativity (particularly, we would not end up with a space-time
formulation that has the Poincare' group as its local symmetry group).
Otherwise, when going back, we'd get classical physics without a sense
of now -- in particular, the Wheeler-DeWitt equation, under the action
of this limiting process, would result in an equation that is still
giving us a timeless state. But we know Newtonian gravity, under
quantization, gives perfectly sensible time flow. So the
correspondence limit missed the mark.
Instead, when we take the inverse of the correspondence limit, we must
get something slightly larger and more complex -- an altered
formulation for Relativity that includes a sense of "now".
So, let's spell out, in some detail, what this actually entails and
what it looks like.
The essential element underlying non-Relativistic physics is the space-
time symmetry group. This is the Galilei group. Back in the early 20th
century, when people like Poincare' were first thinking in terms of
"Relativization" as being a kind of deformation of the Galilei group
to some other slightly altered symmetry group; the only notion on hand
was of the group as the 10-parameter symmetry group which may be
defined as the subset of general affine group GA(4), for 4-D, which
leave invariant the following two structures:
dt^2, (d/dx)^2 + (d/dy)^2 + (d/dz)^2.
The deformation, in going over to the Poincare' group, is the
invariant structures are modied to
dt^2 - alpha (dx^2 + dy^2 + dz^2),
(d/dx)^2 + (d/dy)^2 + (d/dz)^2 - alpha (d/dt)^2.
By continuously turning on the deformation parameter from alpha = 0 to
alpha = (1/c)^2, you go continuously from the Galilei group to the
Poincare' group.
HOWEVER... this is no longer our understanding of the Galilei group!
An important ingredient is missing. In fact, this ingredient is
closely tied to things that are also important in gravity. (One can
hear the ominous music starting up in the background).
Mass.
The representations of the 10-parameter Galilei group all have 0 mass.
To incorporate mass, one needs to add in an 11th parameter. So,
instead of just the kinetic energy (H) and momentum (P =
(P_1,P_2,P_3)), you now also have a mass generator M. Instead of just
the quadratic invariant (P^2 = P_1^2 + P_2^2 + P_3^2), you now have
two invariants:
one quadratic: P^2 - 2MH
and
the other linear: M.
Now the problem becomes readily apparent. When you take the
correspondence of the *10 parameter* Poincare' group (alpha -> 0), you
only get the 10-parameter Galilei group. This is the wrong
correspondence limit!
To get the correct correspondence limit requires extending the
Poincare' group to an 11-parameter group. The result is the
deformation of the two invariants to:
P^2 - 2MH + alpha H^2
M - alpha H.
Normally, one does not see this extension, because as a group this is
just Poincare' with an extra U(1) attached. The Poincare' group does
not admit a non-trivial central extension.
Indeed, this is the actual content and meaning of the E = Mc^2
equation. What happened when you went from Galilei (11) to
Poincare' (10) is that you lost a parameter. This ioccurred because,
unlike the case in Galilei relativity where energy is on an affine
scale and has no absolute 0, in the Poincare' group, energy is on an
absolute scale, so one can talk about the rest energy.
Consequently, it is possible to make a transformation (the inverse of
the Foldy-Woutheusen transformation) whereby the "relativistic mass" M
and "kinetic energy" H are replaced by the "invariant mass" mu = M -
alpha H and "total energy" E = H + mu/alpha = M/alpha. Hence, the
equation E = Mc^2.
Does this, however, actually that energy WAS put on an absolute scale?
If you say "yes", then you've lost the 11th parameter. If, on the
other hand, you keep energy on an affine scale, then mu need not any
longer mean the same thing as rest mass. Instead, the rest mass would
be defined as m by the equation m^2 = M^2 - alpha P^2, for those
states where M^2 > alpha P^2 (the "tardions"; i.e., states who
actually HAVE rest frames).
OK, you say. If Galilei (11) under inverse correspondence goes to
Poincare' (11), then just what is that 11th parameter doing? How is
the group actually characterized?
The simplest way to see this is to revert from the momentum space
representation back to position space. Identify the momentum
components by
P = (P_1, P_2, P_3), P_4 = H, P_5 = M.
Associated with these are conjugate coordinates
dr = (dx^1, dx^2, dx^3), dx^4 = ds, dx^5 = du.
The Poincare' (11) group is the subgroup of the *5*-dimensional affine
group GA(5) which leaves invariant the quadratic form
lambda = P^2 - 2MH + alpha H^2
and the linear invariant
mu = M - alpha H.
What do the general transformations look like in infinitesimal form
here? The conditions delta(lambda) = 0 and delta(mu) give us, as their
most general solution
delta(P) = omega X P - upsilon M
delta(M) = -upsilon.P
delta(H) = -alpha upsilon.P,
where ()X() denotes the cross-product for 3-vectors, and ().() the dot-
product for 3-vectors.
The vectors omega and upsilon are, respectively, the infinitesimal
rotations and boosts the same as would be seen in the Galilei or
Poincare' group. The remaining 5 parameters are the infinitesimal
translations associated with the conjugate coordinates (r =
(x^1,x^2,x^3), s = x^4, u = x^5).
What, then, does the induced transformation on the coordinates look
like? That is, if we have something larger than Poincare', then what
does the extended Lorentz transformations look like?
We start by imposing the requirement that the canonical 1-form
theta = P.dr - Hds + Mdu
be invariant, delta(theta) = 0. Then we obtain the following
expression for delta(theta)
(omega X P - upsilon M).dr - (-upsilon.P)ds + (-alpha upsilon.P) du
+ P.delta(dr) - H delta(ds) + M delta(du).
Equating terms with P as coefficient, we get
delta(dr) = omega X dr - upsilon (ds - alpha du)
delta(du) = upsilon.dr
delta(ds) = 0.
The Lorentz transformations are thus seen to be embedded within this
set of transformations, provided we take the time coordinate t to be
given by
dt = ds - alpha du.
Then, we obtain
delta(dr) = omega X dr - upsilon dt
delta(dt) = -alpha upsilon.dr.
Two things to note. We suddenly see the resolution of some deep long-
standing mysteries. Number one, "what happened to the Poincare' term -
vx/c^2 seen in the Lorentz transformation?" It's still there! In the
Galilei limit, the Poincare' term comes from the infinitesimal term
delta(dt) = -alpha upsilon.dr = -upsilon.dr/c^2.
A vestige of it still remains in the transformation of the u
coordinate,
delta(du) = upsilon.dr.
That term is ABSOLUTELY critical to the representation theory of
Galilei Physics. It's the canonical offset of the mass and compensates
for the transformation law for the mass and kinetic energy. Without
it, you can't get the v^2 term in the transformation for kinetic
energy H.
Second, "what happened to absolute time?" It's still there! In the
Galilean limit, s -> t -- the invariant coordinate (s) coincides with
the time coordinate (t). But when passing back to the Poincare' case
(alpha > 0), s remains behind as a lingering vestige of the Galilei
absolute time.
A better picture can be seen by looking at the appearance of particle
representations in this extended group. Provided we take the affine
parameter for the kinetic energy to be 0, we can equate mu = m. Then
the particle state may be characterized by the relation
lambda = P^2 - 2MH + alpha H^2 = 0.
Under reverse Foldy-Woutheusen transformation, this becomes
P^2 - (E/c)^2 + (mc)^2 = 0.
If you go outside the tardion sector, however, you're forced away
from lambda = 0. Luxons (i.e. photons) you can still wing lambda = 0
and fake the "m = 0" equation, even though there is no "rest" state to
call m a "rest mass" form. Tachyons, on the other hand, could not be
given a sensible interpretation for lambda = 0. There, you must have
lambda > 0. In fact, what's normally called "imaginary rest mass" is
better thought of as simply the "tachyon impulse"
lambda = pi^2 = P^2 - 2MH + alpha H^2 > 0.
This is the momentum associated with the state in its infinite
velocity frame.
This is also the identity of those "zero mass" Galilei states referred
to originally above. The only change is that alpha = 0 in the above
formula (and M = 0).
Going over to the conjugate coordinates, you have the
quadratic invariant: dr^2 + 2 ds du - alpha du^2
and
linear invariant: ds.
If you keep in the "absolute time" coordinate (s), instead of u, then
for non-zero alpha you can replace u by t and obtain the quadratic
invariant
dr^2 - c^2 dt^2 + c^2 ds^2.
For ordinary particles, the quadratic invariant is simply 0. The
interpretation of s is simply the particle's "proper time". In effect,
it is like a 5-D photon which lies on the 5-D hyperboloid
dr^2 - c^2 dt^2 + c^2 ds^2 = 0.
Note, finally, that the canonical 1-form can also be written as
theta = P.dr - H ds + M du = P.dr - H dt + mu du.
Now ... it's at this point .. that you begin to see the additional
structure that was lost. What this picture seems to convey is an
interpretation with the following elements:
(a) space-time, locally coordinatized by (x^0=t,x^1,x^2,x^3),
itself, flows in time (s)!
(b) the linear relation dt = ds - alpha du functions as a
"soldiering relation" which projects this flow onto the manifold.
(c) the parameter appearing in the evolution equation is not t but
s, and this functions as the analogue of the "absolute time" of
Galilean physics.
If you think of this as providing a time-like foliation along the s
coordinate, analogous to the 3+1 foliation of Galilean space-time,
then what this does is give us enough structure to define a "now". For
a given particle, offsetting the extra "dimension" is a distinguished
point on each foliation layer, called a "now". The flow in (s) is
projected onto a flow in (t) by threading this "now" through the
foliation layers in such a way that s = t + alpha u.
The s coordinate is the conjugate of H, which is the Hamiltonian for
the particle. Consequently, the Heisenberg equation is formulated
involving H and gives us the evolution of the state with respect to s,
not t.
In place of a time-less 4-D space, we have an "evolving" 4-D space
with an extra dimension (s). This extra structure provides us with
what's needed to formulation the idea of a "flowing now".
Though the picture laid out here isn't complete, by any stretch of the
imagination, the final point is that this exercise amouts to recoving
the extra structure that was lost when going over from Galilean ->
Poincare', this extra structure, itself, being none other than the
culprit behind both the "Zeno Paradox" (i.e. the "Problem of Time")
and the disappearance of any sense of a "now" from Relativistic
physics.
That's where and how the "here and now" returns to the aetherial realm
of the "timeless" 4-D continuum.
Arnold Neumaier
Jan16-09, 06:00 AM
Rock Brentwood schrieb:
> So, what this tells you is that something intrinsic to non-
> Relativistic physics was lost when going over to Relativistic physics;
> and that what was lost is also the missing element whose absence is
> responsible for the emergence of the Problem of Time.
>
> In other words -- the Problem of Time is not a flaw endemic to quantum
> theory or to any prospective theory of quantum gravity. It's a flaw
> contained in the very structure of Relativity, itself!
I don't see any flaw here.
Classical nonrelativistic mechanics does not know the concept of now.
One declares some time to be ''now'' - but which time one declares to
be ''now'' is completely subjective (i.e., in different situations it
will be declared differently). Similarly, one declares some position
to be ''here'', but which position you declare to be ''here'' is
completely subjective, in the same sense.
Classical relativistic mechanics does not know the concept of now,
either, but things change a little: Here one declares some event
(= spacetime point) to be ''here and now'' - but which event one
declares to be ''here and now'' is completely subjective.
Nonrelativistic quantum mechanics treats time completely differently
from space (time is a parameter, space coordinates are operators),
and introduces stochastic elements into the dynamics.
but with respect to ''here'' and ''now'', the situation is identical
with that in the classical nonrelativistic case.
Relativistic quantum mechanics restores the treatment of space and
time on equal footing (space annd time coordinates are parameters),
and introduces stochastic elements into the dynamics.
But with respect to ''here and now'', the situation is identical
with that in the classical relativistic case.
Once one has chosen ''here'' and ''now'', respectively ''here and now'',
it serves as origin of the tangent hyperplane, in which localized, flat
physics can be done, reflecting faithfully what happens in a
neigborhood of the spacetime point. This is the domain of relativistic
quantum field theory.
Quantum gravity, once it exists one day as a theory, will be a theory
of a bundle over a spacetime manifold whose fibers have a
Fock-space-like structure....
> In the process of going over from non-Relativistic to Relativistic
> physics, an important ingredient was lost.
Nothing was lost, except for the splitting of spacetime into space
and time.
> What was lost in going from (Classical -> Relativistic -> Classical)
> is none other than the sense of a "now".
It is replaced by a sense of ''here and now''; that's all.
Strangely, people in quantum gravity often speak of the ''problem of
time'' but not of the related ''problem of space'' although these
appear on the same footing....
Arnold Neumaier
James D Jones
Jan16-09, 06:00 AM
Thank you for your contribution. It will take me a while to digest this.
Regards,
JDJ
James D Jones
Jan16-09, 06:00 AM
Thank you Juan, for your contribution. I found the link to canonicalscience
illuminating.
Regarding the satellite example, I was thinking of the planet-satellite
system and the evolution of that system's states. My post did not make that
clear. Please look at http://www.mcanv.com/Now for a more complete
expression of my thoughts, possibly confused, on this subject.
Regards,
JDJ
On Jan 12, 3:37*pm, "James D Jones" <jdjo...@ptd.net> wrote:
> "Knecht" <rlolders...@amherst.edu> wrote in message
>
> news:b0a21b3b-2691-4452-aeab-c472f51697bb@e18g2000yqo.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jan 11, 11:03 am, Arnold Neumaier <Arnold.Neuma...@univie.ac.at>
> > wrote:
>
> > If the observer is willing to put a little effort into it, the past
> > can be reconstructed quite accurately with various types of
> > recordings, photographs, written records, oral reports, etc. Not a
> > perfect reconstruction, to be sure, but for all practical purposes, a
> > very good one.
>
> > The future is very much more of a matter of "conjecture". We can
> > predict what is likely to happen, with varying degrees of confidence
> > (depending on the type of system) over varying lengths of time
> > (planetary motion:very long times; weather: a few days) based on how
> > the system has behaved in the past and its location/state "now".
>
> > I would just emphasize that our reconstructions of the past, in
> > general and in principle, can be quite a bit more than subjective
> > conjecture. The predicting the future is better described as
> > conjecture, although with enough effort and the right type of system,
> > we do remarkably well.
>
> Thank you for joining this thread. *I am trying to improve my
> understanding of what happens at the boundary between past and future so
> I initiated this conversation. *Your explanation of past and future
> confirms my notion of how we deal with them. *Can you address the
> duration of the present, which I suspect is vanishingly short? *Also I
> would appreciate it if your could find time to read some notes I have
> left athttp://mcanv.com/Nowand comment on any misconceptions they may
> contain.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
(1) I also view the "present" or "the now" roughly as the boundary
between the past and the future. As such I imagine that its thickness
might well be vanishingly small. The boundary, however, might also be
nondifferentiable! Moreover, different observers might define its
"position" and "velocity" differently, depending on their relative
velocities/accelerations. Come to think of it, perhaps a determined
effort to pursue these issues might lead to some very interesting
physics/natural philosophy. Not an easy subject though, and many
pitfalls.
(2) I will take a look at your linked material over the next few days
and get back to you privately if I have comments.
(3) You might want to look up GFR Ellis' essay on time, which was
placed at www.arxiv.org within the last few weeks (search Ellis in
"all" categories for "past year"). His main ideas are very much
related to the ideas you are exploring.
Yours in science,
Knecht
www.amherst.edu/~rloldershaw
Matej Pavsic
Jan17-09, 06:19 AM
Rock Brentwood wrote:
> In place of a time-less 4-D space, we have an "evolving" 4-D space
> with an extra dimension (s). This extra structure provides us with
> what's needed to formulation the idea of a "flowing now".
>
I liked the above description.
I have done some research along similar lines and found
that such an extra dimension (s) is incorporated within
the 16-dimensional space of oriented r-volumes, r=0,1,2,3,4,
associated with the extended objects in 4-dimensional
spacetime. [ http://www-f1.ijs.si/~pavsic/Presentations ]
These ideas have been discussed in my book
The Landscape of theoretical physics: A Global view.
From point particles to the brane world and beyond,
in search of a unifying principle (Kluwer, 2001) 367 pp.
http://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/0610061
and in the papers
Clifford space as the arena for physics.
Presented at IARD 2002 Conference: 3rd Biennial Meeting, Washington, D.C., 24-26 Jun 2002.
Published in Found.Phys.33:1277-1306,2003.
http://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/0211085
Clifford algebra based polydimensional relativity and relativistic dynamics.
Talk given at IARD 2000 Conference: 2nd Biennial Meeting, Ramat Gan, Israel, 26-28 Jun 2000.
Published in Found.Phys.31:1185-1209,2001.
ttp://arxiv.org/abs/hep-th/0011216
Some other relevant references are:
1) Towards a new paradigm: Relativity in configuration space.
http://arxiv.org/abs/0712.3660
2) An Extra Structure of Spacetime: A Space of Points, Areas and Volumes.
Matej Pavsic (Stefan Inst., Ljubljana) . Nov 2006. 13pp.
Talk given at 29th Spanish Relativity Meeting (ERE 2006): Einstein's Legacy: From the Theoretical
Paradise to Astrophysical Observation, Palma de Mallorca, Spain, 4-8 Sep 2006.
Published in J.Phys.Conf.Ser.66:012022,2007.
http://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/0611050
5) Spin gauge theory of gravity in Clifford space: A Realization of Kaluza-Klein theory in
4-dimensional spacetime.
Int.J.Mod.Phys.A21:5905-5956,2006.
http://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/0507053
6) Kaluza-Klein theory without extra dimensions: Curved Clifford space.
Phys.Lett.B614:85-95,2005.
http://arxiv.org/abs/hep-th/0412255
7) Clifford algebra, geometry and physics.
Presented at NATO Advanced Research Workshop: The Nature of Time: Geometry, Physics and Perception,
Tatranska Lomnica, Slovak Republic, 21-24 May 2002.
Published in NATO Sci.Ser.II 95:165-174,2003. Also in *Tatranska Lomnica 2002, The nature of time*
165-174
http://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/0210060
Let me here just summarize some essential features.
I have found that the currently fashionable ideas about the Heisenberg
picture (as being more fundamental than the Schroedinger picture) are in
agreement with the quantum mechanics based on the (Lorentz) invariant evolution
parameter $\tau$. One only needs to ``slightly" enlarge spacetime.
Instead of 4-dimensional spacetime one has to take the 16-dimensional Clifford space,
i.e., the space r-volumes, r=0,1,2,3,4 [See also http://arxiv.org/abs/hep-th/9912113].
In Clifford space we have the constrained theory, no evolution,
Heisenberg picture, etc., whilst in spacetime (which is a subspace
of Clifford space) we have a reduced, unconstrained,
theory with evolution (as considered by Fock, Stueckelberg, Feynman, Horwitz,
and others). In Clifford space (shortly C-space) 16 components of momentum
are constrained to a generalized mass shell, whilst in spacetime four
components of the ordinary 4-momentum can be considered as being unconstrained
(since we are considering a reduced theory, a reduced action).
Upon Gupta-Bleuler quantization the constraint becomes the
Klein-Gordon equation in C-space. Upon quantization of the reduced
action we obtain the Schroedinger equation in the reduced space
(a subspace of which is 4-dimensional spacetime). In fact, the
Schroedinger equation in the reduced space is a generalized Stueckelberg
equation and it contains the ordinary Stueckelberg equation as a special case).
The Fock-Schwinger proper time formalism is widely recognized as a very useful
tool with a ``fictitious" evolution parameter $\tau$. In my scheme the latter
parameter is not fictitious, it is a genuine evolution parameter.
Such evolution parameter would also appear in a generalization of the
theory that would take into account the dynamics of the metric tensor, i.e.,
in a "suitably generalized general relativity".
This provides a resolution of the notorious ``problem of time''
in (quantum) gravity.
All the nice features of relativity (such as reparametrization invariance,
``block universe", Heisenberg picture, Lorentz transformations, etc.)
still hold: not in spacetime, but in C-space.
The "evolution" takes place in 4-dimensional spacetime, in which the
"moving now" is parametrized by the evolution parameter $\tau$.
Although $\tau$ is an "external time", outside spacetime, it is not
an extra dimension in the usual sense. It is a dimension of C-space,
which in turn is not an ordinary higher dimensional space, but
is a sort of configuration space associated with extended physical objects
in 4-dimensional spacetime.
(For more see http://www-f1.ijs.si/~pavsic/Presentations )
James D Jones
Jan19-09, 06:00 AM
Thank you for your contribution. It will take me a while to digest this.
Regards,
JDJ
James D Jones
Jan19-09, 06:00 AM
Thank you Juan, for your contribution. I found the link to canonicalscience
illuminating.
Regarding the satellite example, I was thinking of the planet-satellite
system and the evolution of that system's states. My post did not make that
clear. Please look at http://www.mcanv.com/Now for a more complete
expression of my thoughts, possibly confused, on this subject.
Regards,
JDJ
Arnold Neumaier
Jan19-09, 06:00 AM
Rock Brentwood schrieb:
> So, what this tells you is that something intrinsic to non-
> Relativistic physics was lost when going over to Relativistic physics;
> and that what was lost is also the missing element whose absence is
> responsible for the emergence of the Problem of Time.
>
> In other words -- the Problem of Time is not a flaw endemic to quantum
> theory or to any prospective theory of quantum gravity. It's a flaw
> contained in the very structure of Relativity, itself!
I don't see any flaw here.
Classical nonrelativistic mechanics does not know the concept of now.
One declares some time to be ''now'' - but which time one declares to
be ''now'' is completely subjective (i.e., in different situations it
will be declared differently). Similarly, one declares some position
to be ''here'', but which position you declare to be ''here'' is
completely subjective, in the same sense.
Classical relativistic mechanics does not know the concept of now,
either, but things change a little: Here one declares some event
(= spacetime point) to be ''here and now'' - but which event one
declares to be ''here and now'' is completely subjective.
Nonrelativistic quantum mechanics treats time completely differently
from space (time is a parameter, space coordinates are operators),
and introduces stochastic elements into the dynamics.
but with respect to ''here'' and ''now'', the situation is identical
with that in the classical nonrelativistic case.
Relativistic quantum mechanics restores the treatment of space and
time on equal footing (space annd time coordinates are parameters),
and introduces stochastic elements into the dynamics.
But with respect to ''here and now'', the situation is identical
with that in the classical relativistic case.
Once one has chosen ''here'' and ''now'', respectively ''here and now'',
it serves as origin of the tangent hyperplane, in which localized, flat
physics can be done, reflecting faithfully what happens in a
neigborhood of the spacetime point. This is the domain of relativistic
quantum field theory.
Quantum gravity, once it exists one day as a theory, will be a theory
of a bundle over a spacetime manifold whose fibers have a
Fock-space-like structure....
> In the process of going over from non-Relativistic to Relativistic
> physics, an important ingredient was lost.
Nothing was lost, except for the splitting of spacetime into space
and time.
> What was lost in going from (Classical -> Relativistic -> Classical)
> is none other than the sense of a "now".
It is replaced by a sense of ''here and now''; that's all.
Strangely, people in quantum gravity often speak of the ''problem of
time'' but not of the related ''problem of space'' although these
appear on the same footing....
Arnold Neumaier
Arnold Neumaier
Jan20-09, 06:00 AM
Juan R. González-Álvarez schrieb:
> Arnold Neumaier wrote on Thu, 15 Jan 2009 19:18:28 +0100:
>
>> Quantum gravity, once it exists one day as a theory, will be a theory of
>> a bundle over a spacetime manifold whose fibers have a Fock-space-like
>> structure....
>
> No, it will be not...
Let's discuss this again in 20 years time; now we can only conjecture...
>> Strangely, people in quantum gravity often speak of the ''problem of
>> time'' but not of the related ''problem of space'' although these appear
>> on the same footing....
>
> The generators are,
>
> H: t --> t + dt
>
> P: x --> x + dx
>
> For general relativity the Hamiltonian vanishes, H = 0, and the temporal
> transformation is 'frozen'. This is the famous problem of time.
>
> Momentum P is not zero. There is not problem of space.
The momentum is also zero. For there is no distinguished H in
(classical and so most likely in quantum) general relativity.
One has to choose a frame to get an H. If one subjects this frame
to a Lorentz transformation, H becomes a linear combination of H
and the P_k. Since H vanishes in each coordinate suystem, this
imples that P also vanishes.
Thus there is a problem of space.
Arnold Neumaier
PS. I'd appreciate if you'd reply to my post from January 3 in the
thread ''physical meaning of entropy'', where I commented your
(partially incorrect) remarks about my recent book.
AN
carlip-nospam@physics.ucdavis.edu
Jan20-09, 06:00 AM
Juan R. González-Álvarez <juanREMOVE@canonicalscience.com> wrote:
> Arnold Neumaier wrote on Thu, 15 Jan 2009 19:18:28 +0100:
[...]
> > Strangely, people in quantum gravity often speak of the ''problem
> > of time'' but not of the related ''problem of space'' although these
> > appear on the same footing....
> The generators are,
> H: t --> t + dt
> P: x --> x + dx
> For general relativity the Hamiltonian vanishes, H = 0, and the
> temporal transformation is 'frozen'. This is the famous problem of
> time.
Right (though there's more to the "problem of time" -- see below.)
> Momentum P is not zero. There is not problem of space.
Wrong. The momentum generators in GR are also constraints, and also
vanish for any solution of the field equations.
Together, the vanishing of H and P lead to what's sometimes called
the "problem of observables." In particular, physical observables must
commute with H and P, and as Torre showed in 1993 (see gr-qc/9306030),
this implies that they must be nonlocal.
The "problem of time" generally gets more attention than the "problem
of space" for two reasons. First, it is easy to solve the momentum
constraints P=0. The general solution for a wave function satisfying
P|Psi>=0 is an arbitrary function of the metric and matter fields that
is invariant (not covariant) under spatial diffeomorphisms. In the
standard canonical formalism, the Hamiltonian constraint H|Psi>=0
is much more complicated -- the Hamiltonian contains second order
functional derivatives, and the general solution is not known (and even
particular solutions are few and far between). Similarly, in defining
the inner product, it's reasonably straightforward to gauge-fix the
symmetries generated by P, but much harder to do the same with the
symmetries generated by H (see, for instance, Woodard, Class. Quant.
Grav. 10 (1993) 483).
Second, time plays a somewhat different role in quantum theory than
space does. For example, it (presumably) makes sense to talk about
causality in terms of time: the past can affect the future, but the
future can't affect the past. There is no corresponding requirement
for space ("the left can affect the right, but the right can't affect
the left"?). Time is also crucial in defining probabilities: we want
the wave function to be normalized at a fixed time, and not, say, at
a fixed spatial position. These are additional aspects of the "problem
of time" that don't show up in the "problem of space."
Steve Carlip
Juan R. González-Álvarez
Jan22-09, 06:00 AM
Arnold Neumaier wrote on Mon, 19 Jan 2009 21:43:49 +0000:
> Juan R. González-Ãlvarez schrieb:
>> Arnold Neumaier wrote on Thu, 15 Jan 2009 19:18:28 +0100:
>>> Strangely, people in quantum gravity often speak of the ''problem of
>>> time'' but not of the related ''problem of space'' although these
>>> appear on the same footing....
>>
>> The generators are,
>>
>> H: t --> t + dt
>>
>> P: x --> x + dx
>>
>> For general relativity the Hamiltonian vanishes, H = 0, and the
>> temporal transformation is 'frozen'. This is the famous problem of
>> time.
>>
>> Momentum P is not zero. There is not problem of space.
>
> The momentum is also zero. For there is no distinguished H in
> (classical and so most likely in quantum) general relativity. One has
> to choose a frame to get an H. If one subjects this frame to a Lorentz
> transformation, H becomes a linear combination of H and the P_k. Since
> H vanishes in each coordinate suystem, this imples that P also
> vanishes.
>
> Thus there is a problem of space.
Consider a material particle, the equations are
H |psi> = 0
P |psi> /= 0
The former states the "problem of time". Momentum associated to x is not
zero, there exists not problem of space.
Consider now the gravitational 'field', (in a 3+1 formalism) the
relevant equations are
H |Psi> = 0
Pi |Psi> = 0
The former equation is the WdW and states again the "problem of time".
Pi is momentum associated to N_\mu. The vanishing of Pi indicates that
N_\mu are not valid coordinates for physical states |Psi> (already N_\mu
are not dynamical variables in general relativity). There is not problem
of space.
Time and space are not in an "equal footing" as you wrote in past
message. In fact, they are very different and this is why the "problem
of time" is so relevant. You cannot take any aspect of time and believe
also applies to space and viceverse.
For a discussion of some of differences between space and time see
introductory section on Nickolic paper (gr-qc/9901045v1).
> PS. I'd appreciate if you'd reply to my post from January 3 in the
> thread ''physical meaning of entropy'', where I commented your
> (partially incorrect) remarks about my recent book.
I was not checking Oct threads! I will check. In a first look it seems
you make some new errors. Thanks for informing me.
--
http://www.canonicalscience.org/
Usenet Guidelines:
http://www.canonicalscience.org/en/miscellaneouszone/guidelines.html
Rock Brentwood
Jan22-09, 06:00 AM
Matej Pavsic wrote:
> I liked the above description.
>
> I have done some research along similar lines and found
> that such an extra dimension (s) is incorporated within
> the 16-dimensional space of oriented r-volumes, r=0,1,2,3,4,
> associated with the extended objects in 4-dimensional
> spacetime.
You don't need to go too far in exotic directions for any of this. In
fact, the 5-D geometry is a commonly used device in the representation
theory of the Galileii group and even finds application in such fields
as solid state physics (e.g. semiconductor and transistor physics,
where on is making use of the *non-relativistic* formulation of
quantum field theory; Dirac equation, path integrals, etc.)
The closest connection to the extension of the 5-D representation to
the Poincare' group seem to be some of the earlier work Einstein did
on projective 5-D models. A projective 5-D model was discussed in some
detail in Bergmann's book on Relativity
http://www.nextag.com/Introduction-to-the-Theory-866568/prices-html?nxtg=66310a280522-F2CD17D30B316107
In fact, what I think is most notable is the resemblance of the 5-
invariants:
P^2 - 2MH + alpha H^2; dr^2 + 2dtdu + alpha du^2
to the line element for projective geometry.
Arnold Neumaier
Jan23-09, 06:00 AM
Juan R. González-Álvarez schrieb:
> Arnold Neumaier wrote on Mon, 19 Jan 2009 21:43:49 +0000:
>
>> Juan R. Gonzalez-Alvarez schrieb:
>>> Arnold Neumaier wrote on Thu, 15 Jan 2009 19:18:28 +0100:
>
>>>> Strangely, people in quantum gravity often speak of the ''problem of
>>>> time'' but not of the related ''problem of space'' although these
>>>> appear on the same footing....
>>> The generators are,
>>>
>>> H: t --> t + dt
>>>
>>> P: x --> x + dx
>>>
>>> For general relativity the Hamiltonian vanishes, H = 0, and the
>>> temporal transformation is 'frozen'. This is the famous problem of
>>> time.
>>>
>>> Momentum P is not zero. There is not problem of space.
>> The momentum is also zero. For there is no distinguished H in
>> (classical and so most likely in quantum) general relativity. One has
>> to choose a frame to get an H. If one subjects this frame to a Lorentz
>> transformation, H becomes a linear combination of H and the P_k. Since
>> H vanishes in each coordinate suystem, this imples that P also
>> vanishes.
>>
>> Thus there is a problem of space.
>
> Consider a material particle,
How do you define a material particle in general relativity?
It is a field theory, and my remarks were about that.
Once you work in an approximation where material particles are
well-defined, both the problem of space and the problem of time dissolve.
Arnold Neumaier
Rock Brentwood
Jan23-09, 06:00 AM
Rock Brentwood wrote:
> The Wheeler-DeWitt equation completely loses any sense of time and time flow...
> This is the modern formulation and embedding of the Zeno Paradox, itself ...
> This is the Problem of Time.
> ... the Problem of Time is not a flaw endemic to quantum theory or to any
> prospective theory of quantum gravity. It's a flaw contained in the very structure
> of Relativity, itself! [that hits hard the very question that this article was in reply to]
...
> [It entails a reformulation of the paradigm from bottom-up]
> So, let's spell out, in some detail, what this actually entails and
> what it looks like.
The reason I don't take this exercise seriously as a bona fide
alternative to (or extension of) Relativity is because there are
actually a few key obstacles standing in the way that have been noted
at various points in time over the last 30 years or so by those who
try to rework Newtonian gravity in modern notation and draw a
(continuous) connection with it in "theory-space" to GR. The simple
naive approach of gauging the 11-parameter Poincare' group and using
this as the basis for an extended gravitational dynamics falls flat on
its face because you *still* lose important terms under "contraction"
to the Galilean limit (alpha = 1/c^2 -> 0). That is: some kind of
account for the ghosts left behind by the O(alpha^2) terms has to be
provided for.
But there are some ideas I'd like to work out that also happen to
touch on some issues that may be regarded as kind of "loose
ends" (like: what happened to the 5th transport equation when going
over from non-relativistic to relativistic fluid dynamics?). Suddenly,
you can see them in a new, and hopefully clearer light.
So first, this is the issue that was brought up:
In representation theory, we encounter the Galilei group, which can be
defined as the subgroup of the general affine group over the space
{ (t,r): t in R, r in R^3 }
that preserves the two invariants:
dt^2, Del^2
where Del^2 is the Laplacian over R^3. This results in a 10 parameter
group, whose parameters are naturally identified as momentum (P),
kinetic energy (H), angular momentum (L) and "mass moment" (K).
The only representations of this group correspond to particles of mass
M=0 moving at infinite speed ("action-at-a-distance" particles or
"synchrons", for lack of a better name). This deficiency arises from
the fact -- nowadays well-known -- that Galilei admits an 11th
parameter ... M ... as a central charge.
In contrast, the theories of special and general relativity are based
on the Poincare' group, which has only 10 generators, and no central
charges. Both H and M are combined into a single generator, E, which
corresponds to total energy. The merger is the essence of Einstein's
"mass energy unification" result.
This creates a problem -- a serious mismatch. Historically, both
Relativity and its associated structure were devised by inductive
reasoning from the 10-parameter Galilei group, before anyone had a
clue as to what was going on with central charges. It's
"correspondence limit" is the 10-parameter group. That is: you can
devise a continuous 1-parameter family of groups that connects the 10-
parameter Poincare' and Galilei groups.
The same holds true of Minkowski geometry. It, too, was devised based
on the 10-parameter Poincare' group.
What, then, is it that gives us the 11-parameter group as its
"correspondence limit"? What is the structure of the theories based on
this symmetry group? And what are their relation to the theories of
Special and General Relativity?
Over what geometry does both the Galilei (11) and 11-parameter
extension of Poincare' naturally reside? How does it relate to
Minkowski space? (Strong hint: non-relativistic fluid dynamics has 5
transport equations, instead of 4: one for mass, 3 for momentum and 1
for energy).
So I want to expand on this a bit, broadening the scope of the general
idea. In a way, you can think of this as a kind of reading -- or
stealing away -- bits and pieces from a book written 100 years from
now. So, you'll forgive me a little if it doesn't all gel together.
The issues:
(1) Proper Time as the Lagrangian for both Relativistic *and* Non-
Relativistic Mechanics
(2) Schwarzschild & Newton Bridged Together
(3) The *Extra* Fluid Dynamic Equation and Stress Tensor Symmetry?
(4) T_{44} & the Mysterious Density "Z"; Deformation to Relativistic
Fluid Dynamics.
(5) The "General Relativistic" Newtonian Gravity Law.
(6) Generalization to Relativistic Form
The fluid dynamics example is an important one, because if you want to
write down any law of gravity (relativistic or non-relativistic), an
often-overlooked item on the to do list is that you need to first
shore up the fluid dynamics model you use, since the gravitational
dynamics formalisms in common use are essentially just extensions of
fluid dynamics with gravity incorporated.
==========
(1) Proper Time as the Lagrangian for both Relativistic *and* Non-
Relativistic Mechanics
If you take literally the idea that the 5th coordinate encapsulates
proper time with particles now subject to two constraints:
(Linear) "Soldering" constraint: dt = ds - alpha du
(Quadratic) "Metric" constraint: dr^2 + 2dtdu + alpha du^2 = 0
and that their conjugate momentum components are subject to
constraints of similar form
(Linear) "Mass-Energy" constraint: mu = M - alpha H = constant
(Quadratic) "Generalized Mass Shell" constraint: P^2 - 2MH + alpha
H^2 = 0
then -- incredibly enough -- you actually have enough to use the
*same* action, across the board, to both the Galilean and Relativistic
cases -- the proper time.
The action for a point-mass reads, simply,
S = integral ds,
subject to the constraints
dt = ds - alpha du, dr^2 + 2dtdu + alpha du^2 = 0.
The constraints are incorporated as Lagrangian multipliers, everything
written as a function of time, t:
S = integral (s' + A(s' - alpha u' - 1) + B(r'.r' + 2u' + alpha
u'^2)) dt,
where ()' = d()/dt. Varying s, u and r leads, respectively, to the
equations:
(1+A)' = 0, (2B(1 + alpha u') - alpha A)' = 0, (Br')' = 0.
Varying A and B leads to the constraints
s' - alpha u' = 1, r'.r' + 2u' + alpha u'^2 = 0.
For the Galilean case, alpha = 0, this gives us
s' = 1, r' = v, u' = -v^2/2
A' = 0, (Bv)' = 0, B' = 0.
Consequently, we find that A, B and v are constants of motion and that
the time-dependence of the coordinates is given up to integration
constants by
r = vt, s = t, u = -v^2t/2.
For the remaining cases, where alpha is not 0, we have
r' = v, (1 + alpha u')^2 = 1 - alpha v^2, s' = 1 + alpha u'.
A' = 0, (Bv)' = 0, (Bs')' = 0.
Again, we find that A, B and v are constants of motion and that the
time-dependence of the coordinates is given up to integration
constants by
r = vt, s = +/- root(1 - alpha v^2) t, u = (s-t)/alpha = -v^2t/(1 +/-
root(1 - alpha v^2)).
The coordinate s, in both cases, is (up to sign) the proper time and
the on-shell Lagrangian is the proper time.
==========
(2) Schwarzschild & Newton Bridged Together
The Schwarzschild solution is given by the line element
ds^2 = (1 + 2 alpha U) dt^2 - alpha (dr^2/(1 + 2 alpha U) + r^2 (dq^2
+ (sin q df)^2)),
where U = -GM/r is the gravitational potential of the force center.
If we adopt the soldering relation dt = ds - alpha du, and treat the
entire line element as a 5-metric line element set to 0, then the
quadratic constraint reduces to the form
dr^2/(1 + 2 alpha U) + r^2 (dq^2 + (sin q df)^2) + 2dt (du + U dt) +
alpha du^2 = 0.
The proper time is then given by the relation
ds = dt + alpha du.
This has a non-trivial Galilean limit,
dr^2 + r^2 (dq^2 + (sin q df)^2) + 2 dt (du + U dt) = 0.
The proper time is just the time, itself: ds = dt. Reverting the
spherical coordinates (r,q,f) to Cartesian form (x,y,z), we then get:
dx^2 + dy^2 + dz^2 + 2 dt (du + U dt) = 0.
The conjugate coordinates are given by the canonical 1-form
P_x dx + P_y dy + P_z dz - H ds + M du.
Associated with this is the inverse metric expressed by the quadratic
form:
lambda = P^2 - 2 M H - 2U M^2.
If we now subject the test particle to the quadratic constraint
lambda = 0,
and linear constaint
mu = M = constant
the net result is that for non-trivial states (non-zero mu), we get
the reduction:
H = P^2/(2 mu) + mu U.
The momentum coordinate, H, conjugate to the "absolute time", s,
assumes the familiar form; the one and the same as the Hamiltonian for
the test-particle.
When subject to canonical quantization
-i h-bar d = (dx P_x + dy P_y + dz P_z - ds H + du M),
we obtain the equations of motion
i h-bar @(psi)/@s = (-i h-bar del)^2 psi/(2 mu) + mu U psi,
-i h-bar @(psi)/@u = mu psi.
(@ = partial derivative operator)
The u coordinate is the phase factor associated with the mass, mu, and
we obtain Schroedinger evolution with respect to the "absolute time"
s.
All of this remains intact when passing continuously over to the
Relativistic case, by continuously varying the parameter alpha. The
result becomes equivalent to the Klein-Gordon equation for the test
particle on a Schwarzschild background.
Only, here: the evolution is with respect to the "absolute time"
coordinate s, not t. The coordinates t and s are no longer equivalent.
==========
(3) The *Extra* Fluid Dynamic Equation and Stress Tensor Symmetry?
As you probably know, fluid dynamics has a serious misfit when going
over from non-relativistic to relativistic form: there's a 5th
equation that somehow gets lost. So ... where did it go?
If you want to formulate a gravitational dynamics, then the first
thing to note is that both Newtonian gravity and General Relativity
are built atop a fluid dynamics foundation. Whether it be the Poisson
equation or the Einstein field equation, what appears on the right-
hand side are quantities defined in fluid dynamics. Thereore, both
formulations of gravitational dynamics are simply extensions of fluid
dynamics, expanded to included the action under gravity.
Thereore, to get a better understanding on the *correct* form of the
correspndence limit to non-Relativistic theory from (the correct form
of) Relativity -- a limit that properly targets the 11-parameter
Galilei group, instead of the 10-parameter Galilei group as Relativity
currently does -- then you first have to address what's going on with
the FIFTH equation in fluid dynamics.
That's right: in non-relativistic fluid dynamics, there are FIVE
equations, not four. One governs the transport of kinetic energy,
three the transport of momentum, and the fifth ... that's the
conservation law, which governs the transport of mass.
This is yet another place, where you see the misfit between the five
components (P = (P_1,P_2,P_3), H = -P_4, M = P_5) of momentum, versus
the four (E = -P_0, P = (P_1,P_2,P_3)) of relativistic dynamics:
you've lost the equations for H and M and replaced it by only one
equation: that for E.
Moreover, if there are 5 equations, and not 4, then in order to get
symmetry for the corresponding stress tensor, you need a 5th
coordinate in each equation! So, even at the classical level there is
need for repair to complete what's left undone.
The non-relativistic equations are transport equations for local
densities (rho, pi, eta) which give us the currents, respectively, or
(M, P, H). They take the form
@rho/@t + del.(v rho) = 0
@pi/@t + del.(v pi) = F
@eta/@t + del.(v eta) = B + v.F,
where F is the force-density and B the power density. The momentum
density pi and energy density eta are subject to the relations
pi = rho v, eta = rho v^2/2.
The dot ().() denotes scalar product for 3-vectors. The vectors in the
equation above are v, pi, del and F. The scalars are t, rho, eta and
B.
First, this set of equations -- which is just the skeletal form of the
final complete set -- are required to be "scale invariant" in the
sense that if one chunks a bunch of subsystems together and defines
the "total" rho, pi, eta as averages; then the form of the resulting
averaged equations should remain the same. First, we can always assume
the same form for (rho v) by *defining* the velocity by the relation
<pi> = <rho> v.
This requires the assumption:
* if <pi> = 0, wherever <rho> = 0.
For other non-linear combinations, this requires adding extra terms to
account for the various covariances, e.g.,
<rho v^i v^j> = <rho v^i><v^j> + P^{ij},
<rho v^2/2> = <rho>(<v>^2/2 + U),
<rho v eta> = <rho v><eta> + q,
thus introducing extra terms corresponds to the "stress" (P),
"internal energy" (U), "heat transfer" (q).
The resulting system now looks like this:
D(rho) = @rho/@t + del.(v rho) = 0
D(pi) = @(rho v)/@t + del.(rho v v + P) = F
D(eta) = @(rho (v^2/2 + U))/@t + del.(rho (v^2/2 + U) v + v.P + q) =
B + v.F.
(@ = partial derivative operator)
We may then ask how this transforms under the (10-parameter) Galilei
group. By including the v.P term in the last equation we'll have
ensured the invariance of U, P and q under boosts.
Under the Galilei transform
r -> r - Vt, t -> t, v -> v - V, del -> del, @/@t -> @/@t + V.del,
we have the following transformation
D(rho) -> D(rho), D(pi) -> D(pi) - D(rho) V, D(eta) -> D(eta) - D
(pi).V + D(rho) V^2/2
This reflects the momentum space transformation
M -> M, P -> P - MV, H -> H - P.V + MV^2/2.
Under this action, both the power density, B, and force density, F,
are also invariant.
But now this puts us in an awkward position of having a 5x4 stress
tensor:
T^0_5 = rho, T^i_5 = T^0_5 v^i
T^0_j = rho v_j, T^i_j = T^0_j v^i + P^i_j
-T^0_4 = rho (v^2/2 + U), -T^i_4 = T^0_4 v^i + sum(v^j P^i_j) + q^i,
for i = 1, 2, 3 and j = 1, 2, 3; summation taken over j = 1, 2, 3.
Plus, we're in the awkward position of having used the *11* parameter
Galilei transformation for the momentum components, but only the *10*
parameter transformation for the coordinates.
To fix this, we take the (s = x^4, u = x^5) coordinates in place of t
= x^0 and note that the "soldering relation" dt = ds - alpha du
reduces to t = s for the Galilei case, alpha = 0. Then we write
T^4_5 = T^0_5 = rho, T^4_j = T^0_j = rho v_j, -T^4_4 = -T^0_4 = rho
(v^2/2 + U),
for j = 1, 2, 3.
The momentum space metric is given by the quadratic form (summation
convention used):
lambda = P^2 - 2MH + alpha H^2 = g^{mu nu} P_{mu} P_{nu}
where P_4 = -H, P_5 = M. This gives us
g^{ij} = delta^{ij}; for i, j = 1, 2, 3
g^{i4} = g^{i5} = 0 = g^{4j} = g^{5j}; for i, j = 1, 2, 3
g^{44} = alpha, g^{45} = 1 = g^{54}, g^{55} = 0.
The inverse metric is given by the line element
dr^2 + 2dsdu - alpha du^2
with r = (x^1, x^2, x^3), s = x^4, u = x^5; and works out to
g_{ij} = delta_{ij}; for i, j = 1, 2, 3
g_{i4} = g_{i5} = 0 = g_{4j} = g_{5j}; for i, j = 1, 2, 3
g_{44} = 0; g_{45} = g_{54} = 1; g_{55} = -alpha.
If we lower the indices using this metric, defining T_{ij} = g_{ik}
T^k_j, then we have for the Galilei case (alpha = 0),
T_{ij} = rho v_i v_j + P_{ij}; for i, j = 1, 2, 3
T_{i5} = T_{5j} = rho v_j; for i, j = 1, 2, 3
T_{55} = rho
T_{54} = -rho (v^2/2 + U),
T_{i4} = -rho (v^2/2 + U) v_i - sum (v^j P_{ij}) - q_i.
The one necessary condition for this to all work is that the internal
stress tensor P also be symmetric:
P_{ij} = P_{ji}.
In order to complete this picture, we need to also include,
T^5_i = T_{4i} = T_{i4} = -(rho (v^2/2 + U) v_i + P_{ij} v^j + q_i)
T^5_4 = T_{44}
T^5_5 = T_{45} = T_{54} = -rho (v^2/2 + U).
This doesn't tell us what T^5_4 = T_{44} ought to be. But the
requirement that the full system now be invariant under Galilei(11),
and not just Galilei(10):
r -> r - Vt, s -> s, u -> u + V.r
del -> del - V @/@u, @/@s -> @/@s + V.del - V^2 @/@u, @/@u -> @/@u -
alpha V.del
will give us the correct form as
T^5_4 = T_{44} = rho (v^2/2 + U)^2 + (v.P + q).v + Z
where Z is Galilei-invariant.
Altogether, what we find are the following equations,
D(rho) = @rho/@t + del.(v rho) - @(rho (v^2/2 + U)/@u = 0
D(pi) = @(rho v)/@t + del.(rho v v + P) - @(rho (v^2/2 + U) v + P.v +
q)/@u = F
D(eta) = @(rho (v^2/2 + U))/@t + del.(rho (v^2/2 + U) v + v.P + q) - @
(rho (v^2/2 + U)^2 + (v.P + 2q).v + Z)/@u = B + v.F.
This extension still preserves the transformation behavior
D(rho) -> D(rho), D(pi) -> D(pi) - D(rho) V, D(eta) -> D(eta) - D
(pi).V + D(rho) V^2/2,
but now the picture is completed both by making the *full* 5X5 stress
tensor symmetric, and by incorporating the *full* 5-coordinate/Galilei
(11) of the Galilei transformation.
We can add an off-setting term, E, to the right of the mass transport
equation. To preserve the transformation properties of the equations,
this requires modifying the right-hand sides of the other two
equations as follows:
F becomes F + v E,
B + v.F becomes B + v.F + (v^2/2) E.
==========
(4) T_{44} & the Mysterious Density "Z"; Deformation to Relativistic
Fluid Dynamics.
There is an extra density, Z, that suddenly appears out of nowhere. In
fact, this is already mandated solely by the "system chunking" scale
invariance requirement descibed above. It soaks up the covariances of
all the non-linear terms in the remainder of T_{44}.
I have no idea what Z is. Its units are those of energy-density or
pressure multiplied by velocity squared. It's left largely
undetermined by all three conditions: "scale-invariance", symmetry and
Galilei invariance.
But now, with this final element in place, it's possible to directly
convert this to "Relativistic" form. The scare-quotes mean that this
is not Relativistic fluid dynamics in the usual sense -- which is
grounded in the Poincare'(10) group, but "extended" Relativistic,
grounded in the Poincare'(11) group and it's 5-coordinate
representation.
So, the 5th equation remains intact. In invariant form, the equations
read:
@(T^{mu}_{nu})/@x^{mu} = K_{nu},
K_5 = K(@/@u) = 0.
So, there are actually TWO senses of the conservation law -- as there
are in the Galilean case. One is the force-law "continuity equation"
for the stress tensor -- the first equation. The other equation is a
bona fide continuity equation: one for the invariant mass mu = M -
alpha H.
The specific forms
pi = rho v, eta = rho (v^2/2 + U)
come out of the requirements (1) symmetry of the stress tensor and (2)
invariance under the space-time symmetry group. These have to be
derived anew.
==========
(5) The "General Relativistic" Newtonian Gravity Law.
Returning to the question raised at the outset of (3), the Poisson
equation
del^2 U = 4 pi G rho
can now be seen in a new light. This equation, following Cartan, is
written in "General Relativistic" form as:
R_{00} = K T_{00}
for a suitable constant K. The *correct* form comes straight out of
the fluid dynamics equations. The density rho appears in the equation
for mass transport. Consequently, it is NOT the 0-anything component
(the component associated with "total energy" E or "time" t), but the
5-5 component!
T_{55} = rho.
Thus, the correct equation should ultimately arise from
del^2 U = 4 pi G T_{55}.
If generalizing to the metric for Galilei(11), the left-hand side
should be replaced with the corresponding quadratic invariant:
(del^2 + 2 (@/@u)(@/@s)) U = 4 pi G T_{55}.
In invariant form, this reads:
@_{mu} (root(-g) g^{mu nu} @_{nu} U) = 4 pi G root(-g) T(@/@u, @/@u),
where g is the determinant of the *5*-metric (g_{mu nu}); and
@_{mu} = @/@x^{mu}.
==========
(6) Generalization to Relativistic Form
The potential, itself, naturally fits in with the metric as follows.
The geodesic law in GR can be written in first-order form as:
m g_{mu nu} dx^{nu}/ds = p_{mu}
dp_{mu}/ds = m @(phi)/@x^{mu}
where
phi = 1/2 g_{nu rho} dx^{nu}/ds dx^{rho}/ds.
Relating this to the equation involving the gravitational potential U
dp/ds = -m del U
gives us the following correspondence: phi = -2U. In turn, this can be
expressed as the following differential equation
g_{mu nu} dx^{mu}/ds dx^{nu}/ds + 2U = 0
or as the quadratic constraint (the "geodesic constraint"),
g_{mu nu} dx^{mu} dx^{nu} + 2U ds^2 = 0.
This seems to suggest *combining* both the Newtonian and Relativistic
equations into a larger set as follows:
@_{mu} (root(-g) g^{mu nu} @_{nu} U) = 4 pi G root(-g) T(@/@u +
alpha @/@s, @/@u + alpha @/@s)
g_{mu nu} dx^{mu} dx^{nu} + 2U ds^2 = 0,
where -- in the extended 5-D geometry -- ds and @/@u + alpha @/@s are
the two linear vector invariants. The problem (as well-known from
Cartan onwards) is: combine it with *what*? The Einstein equation
reads
8 pi G T_{mu nu} = c^3 G_{mu nu},
and does not have a sensible Galilean limit because of the c^3 factor.
The c^3 factor has to be directly incorporated into G_{mu nu} before
taking the limit.
I have been thinking about the nature of "now". What happens at that boundary called "now" between an unknowable future where systems, incuding the universe as a whole, have an enormous number of possible states and an unchangeable past characterized by the single state in which the universe was caught as "now" swept by?
I don't think this asymmetry is so. However we should count states, objectively they would be equal.
Matej Pavsic
Jan28-09, 06:00 AM
Rock Brentwood wrote:
> You don't need to go too far in exotic directions for any of this. In
> fact, the 5-D geometry is a commonly used device in the representation
> theory of the Galileii group and even finds application in such fields
> as solid state physics (e.g. semiconductor and transistor physics,
> where on is making use of the *non-relativistic* formulation of
> quantum field theory; Dirac equation, path integrals, etc.)
As it is necessary to solve the problem of time, so it is necessary to
explain the fundamental interactions. Approaches based on Clifford
algebra and the concept of 16-D Clifford space seem to be very
promising. A by product is a possible resolution of the issue of time,
since a 5-D geometry is embedded in Clifford space.
Although the term "Clifford space" sounds very abstract mathematical, it
is just an extension of the space of points to the space of higher grade
objects -- oriented areas and volumes. The latter objects can be handled
mathematically by means of Clifford algebra, whereas physically they are
associated with extended objects living in space time. Once one extends
a vector space (which is a tangent space to the spacetime manifold) to
the corresponding Clifford algebra (which in turn is a tangent space to
the Clifford space) one finds that "miraculously" spinors enter the
game. Spinors are nothing but certain Clifford numbers, for instance the
sum of a time-like and a space-like vector acting on a special Clifford
number (a "vacuum"). This is a well known result in mathematical
physics.
In a curved 16-D Clifford space, one obtains not only the 4-D gravity,
but also other interactions ('a la Kaluza-Klein). It appears that a nice
and coherent picture is starting to emerge, the issue of time being just
a part of it.
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