What are "chakras" anyway?

[PJ2001]

Hello,

Hinduism talks of 7 (or sometimes many more) chakras, or energy centers. They seem to correspond to the nerve plexus' in the body as well as some glands.

I don't what scientific basis there is for such, but perhaps I'm being too narrow minded?

Thanks
PJ

[mgb_phys]

They are special points on the body through which money can be extracted from Californians.

[Ivan Seeking]

Just to keep this on the right track, the questions should be more along these lines: What are the claims made with respect to the existence and function of chakras? Is there any scientific evidence to support these claims?

Keep in mind that we explore claims of and evidence for unexplained phenomena. We don't want a review of religious beliefs.

[mgb_phys]

The difficulty with all these topics is that it is hard to find/quote the original source.
So somebody (often with an interest) will try and link the belief with science by saying that this ancient_mystical_point is over some organ/structure that is now known to be important so the ancients had some secret knowledge that we only just discovered.

But did the point originally have a fixed position, did it line up with whatever the promoter is now claiming, and does the organ have anything to do with whatever this point was meant to cure?

[Ivan Seeking]

Yes, there are many examples of revisionist history. However, simply locating a organ proves nothing.

[Ivan Seeking]

btw, good one mgb!

I've lived in Oregon long enough to laugh at Californian jokes. :biggrin:

[Proton Soup]

don't know for sure, but i suspect they correspond to areas of focus during meditation. whether there would be a physical correlation or it's simply a mnemonic device is anyone's guess.

[Ghost803]

In my opinion its all just a bunch of hogwash.. And I've taken Yoga,etc.

It's sad though, the mental and physical rewards of Yoga exercises were very great, even without having to mix in mysticism and mythology. I am just miffed that Yoga and meditations is packaged in such a sensationalist way that discredits it and makes people skeptical of its benifits.

[mgb_phys]

I am just miffed that Yoga and meditations is packaged in such a sensationalist way that discredits it and makes people skeptical of its benifits.
It's the same with Karate, Saying 'ke-ai' as you punch empties your lungs of air and tightens your stomach muscles - it doesn't concentrate your mystical life force.
And the plank gets broken because of the speed of the punch and momentum - except in my case where I just get sore knuckles cos I'm weedy.

[Ms Music]

I have heard of healing done through "chakra alignment" or something of the sorts... But is there even any way at all to see if it truly works? Or if it is the placebo affect only? I have a friend that works with this stuff, and she truly believes in what she does.... I am a skeptic personally, but when science has taken prayer and ruled out the placebo affect, I won't bet that chakras are nothing at all... But how do you rule out the placebo effect?

[jobyts]

yeah, the chakra alignment worked for my car.

("chakra" in sanscrit means wheel.)

[mgb_phys]

yeah, the chakra alignment worked for my car.
I think I see a business opportunity there. Between therapists for your dog and feng shui for your office - why not a chakra realignment for your car ?
It must build up a lot of negative vibes in all those traffic jams - so you can have it's aura cleansed along with the oil change.

[Ivan Seeking]

Alright, let's keep this serious. :smile:

[CEL]

I have heard of healing done through "chakra alignment" or something of the sorts... But is there even any way at all to see if it truly works? Or if it is the placebo affect only? I have a friend that works with this stuff, and she truly believes in what she does.... I am a skeptic personally, but when science has taken prayer and ruled out the placebo affect, I won't bet that chakras are nothing at all... But how do you rule out the placebo effect?
When did science take prayer and rule out placebo effect?

[b.shahvir]

:rolleyes: Its human nature to reject what cannot be understood by the realms of the human mind. We only experience the environment thru our sense organs.......and the organs do have limitations! But wat the heck,the debate will go on.....and on.... and on......:wink:

[Ms Music]

When did science take prayer and rule out placebo effect?

Sorry CEL, I am swamped today and having a hard time finding the exact study with so little time (needless to say, googling "prayer" brings up so much garbage). The one I remember reading about, the people didn't even know that people were praying for them to rule out placebo. This study appears that the patients knew someone was praying for them, which doesn't rule out placebo. But it could be the phase II study that they mention at the end of the article where they didn't let some people know they were being prayed for.

Again, sorry I couldn't find the right one, but I have no more time to search. This is the best I could find from a reputable source.

http://www.dukehealth.org/HealthLibrary/News/5056

Will post again later if i can find the right study.

[DaveC426913]

mgb, you are on fire today! :rofl:

[CEL]

Sorry CEL, I am swamped today and having a hard time finding the exact study with so little time (needless to say, googling "prayer" brings up so much garbage). The one I remember reading about, the people didn't even know that people were praying for them to rule out placebo. This study appears that the patients knew someone was praying for them, which doesn't rule out placebo. But it could be the phase II study that they mention at the end of the article where they didn't let some people know they were being prayed for.

Again, sorry I couldn't find the right one, but I have no more time to search. This is the best I could find from a reputable source.

http://www.dukehealth.org/HealthLibrary/News/5056

Will post again later if i can find the right study.

The article does not mention if the group that received the intercessory prayer was aware of the treatment, but the other noetic treatments are made with the knowledge of the patient, so the study is not blind and cannot rule out placebo effect.
"These noetic interventions help a patient achieve a state of calm equilibrium, or homeostasis, which puts them in a better state to help in their own recovery process,"

[lisab]

Alright, let's keep this serious. :smile:

Good luck with that, Ivan...like herding cats :wink:!

[Ivan Seeking]

Good luck with that, Ivan...like herding cats :wink:!

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl: You got that right! However, as you can imagine, if we allow the silliness to take over, the forum is a lost cause.

... like herding cats LOL; perfect.

I should say that our membership has improved dramatically since I took over S&D in 2003. Back then there were times that I could barely stand to look.

[AltScience]

The difficulty with all these topics is that it is hard to find/quote the original source.
So somebody (often with an interest) will try and link the belief with science by saying that this ancient_mystical_point is over some organ/structure that is now known to be important so the ancients had some secret knowledge that we only just discovered.

But did the point originally have a fixed position, did it line up with whatever the promoter is now claiming, and does the organ have anything to do with whatever this point was meant to cure?

Wiki, defines empirical research as research that bases its findings on direct or indirect observation as its test of reality. Such research may also be conducted according to hypothetico-deductive procedures.

Ancient mystics, often considered kooks by materialists even in ancient times, relied on empirical research to develop their techniques. If we go back in history it was very hard to access these techniques. They were only available to a monk or priest class and it was not quite the social scam it is today.

To alter the consciousness was a serious persuit of these individuals. To do this required many hours of observation of human consciousness. The results were shared and eventually codified and handed down. I consider this scientific empirical research.

More difficult than finding primary sources is the fact that we have to observe the results of their ancient research through the lens of our own modern culture. As an aside, the California culture we have joked about in this thread can be seen (imho) as the result of a serious breakdown in the effectiveness of the western religious models of the past few centuries. Individuals are looking for a deeper connection to the abstract modes of consciousness that religious mystery has always provided human beings since the begining of civilization.

If we contrast this difficulty with the simplicity of the empirical method of observation we come closer to understanding the language that is used by modern kooks and mystics.

Let us take a very obvious example. There is a chakra associated to the genitals. Most of us can admit that without mythology or placebo effect that some sort of "energy" builds up in the groin. Without knowing about gonads or hormones we sense the tension build up over time and we seek release naturally. This would be the first observation to base the research on.

Can we all agree that there is a point on the body, namely the genitals, that seems to accumulate energy that is different from other points on the body?

This would be the foundation for speculating that a energy center exists in this part of the body with a particular function.

The next observation I would offer is that in the process of releasing this tension we often seek a partner. When his energy is released with another person another sort of energy arises that seems to emanate from the heart. This energy is similar but not the same as the energy that build up in the genitals. We would call it love and it has formed the basis for human relationships forever. In the 21st century we understand a little about electro-chemical reactions of nervous tissue (George W. Crile, a kook, did much of this research in the '30's using animal experiments and modern scientific method in the lab) but in ancient times they were limited to empirical research.

The stumbling block is language...metaphorical language that is interpreted as being the objective truth. What is described as a colored wheel of spritual energy is a metaphorical way of describing the hormonal electro-chemical reactions of nervous tissue.

I would suggest that taken simply there is sufficient empirical research to suggest that there is an energy associated with various organs/structures of the body.

I would hold the serious breakdown in the effectiveness of the western religious models of the past few centuries to be the cause of the silliness, wishful thinking, and outright fraud that occurs in much of the commercial discussion of "chakras" and quick self-help yoga practices. People act like they are starving or drowning and are ready to eat or cling to any idea that gives them the certainty they seem to need so bad. It is this mental pathology in our culture that prevents good empirical research into the borderlands of perception.

Pardon my word horde,

[Ivan Seeking]

Are you saying that modern medicine already has modern names for the "energies" claimed to be associated with chakras, or are you saying there is more?

[DaveC426913]

Are you saying that modern medicine already has modern names for the "energies" claimed to be associated with chakras, or are you saying there is more?
I think he's saying that the chakras are metaphors for biological systems we are already aware of, but that we reduce to their most simple components (hormones, blood flow, skin conductivity, etc.) and thus miss the bigger picture.

[DaveC426913]

Wiki, defines empirical research as research that bases its findings on direct or indirect observation as its test of reality.

...

If we contrast this difficulty with the simplicity of the empirical method of observation we come closer to understanding the language that is used by modern kooks and mystics.

The problem with empirical research is that it can go horribly astray.

Historically, several otherwise great scientists have been lured off the path of truth by observing the motions of the planets and proceeding to invent explanations linked to the regular polygons.

Likewise, Farmer's Almanacs often predict upcoming weather patterns based, not on an understanding of weather, but merely on past observations.

In both cases (and my point here being: in all three cases), through empirical observation but without deeper understanding, the practioners think they've got a handle on cause and effect when, in fact, they are being led down dead-end paths, risking mis-diagnosis.

[Kingarthur]

I think chakras have something to do with the way electricity flows through the human body, but I’m not sure. I'm surprised that this thread is full of people who are insensitive to historical viewpoints of science and medicine. I think this is an area of biology and anatomy that merges with other disciplines, including philosophy, psychology, quantum physics, and religion.

[Ivan Seeking]

I think chakras have something to do with the way electricity flows through the human body, but I’m not sure. I'm surprised that this thread is full of people who are insensitive to historical viewpoints of science and medicine. I think this is an area of biology and anatomy that merges with other disciplines, including philosophy, psychology, quantum physics, and religion.

That is certainly not a point of view that will be discussed here. Please read the posting guidelines.

[AltScience]

Are you saying that modern medicine already has modern names for the "energies" claimed to be associated with chakras, or are you saying there is more?

DaveC426913 sums it up very well and leaves an opening for discussion (elsewhere ; D) concerning the bigger picture. Safe to say we have much more research to do on human consciousness and its relationship to the myriad of biological systems.

I think he's saying that the chakras are metaphors for biological systems we are already aware of, but that we reduce to their most simple components (hormones, blood flow, skin conductivity, etc.) and thus miss the bigger picture.

DaveC426913 also raises a great point on the danger of mis-diagnosis due to incompelete understanding that should be kept squarely in mind when doing qualitative science.

through empirical observation but without deeper understanding, the practioners think they've got a handle on cause and effect when, in fact, they are being led down dead-end paths, risking mis-diagnosis.

[CEL]

...

Let us take a very obvious example. There is a chakra associated to the genitals. Most of us can admit that without mythology or placebo effect that some sort of "energy" builds up in the groin. Without knowing about gonads or hormones we sense the tension build up over time and we seek release naturally. This would be the first observation to base the research on.

.......
The next observation I would offer is that in the process of releasing this tension we often seek a partner. When his energy is released with another person another sort of energy arises that seems to emanate from the heart. This energy is similar but not the same as the energy that build up in the genitals. We would call it love and it has formed the basis for human relationships forever. In the 21st century we understand a little about electro-chemical reactions of nervous tissue (George W. Crile, a kook, did much of this research in the '30's using animal experiments and modern scientific method in the lab) but in ancient times they were limited to empirical research.

The stumbling block is language...metaphorical language that is interpreted as being the objective truth. What is described as a colored wheel of spritual energy is a metaphorical way of describing the hormonal electro-chemical reactions of nervous tissue.

I would suggest that taken simply there is sufficient empirical research to suggest that there is an energy associated with various organs/structures of the body.
...



This is a Physics fprum. Energy is the capability to do work. Are you saying that the "energy" from your genitals can lift a rock?

[AltScience]

This is a Physics fprum. Energy is the capability to do work. Are you saying that the "energy" from your genitals can lift a rock?

Yes, biological energy does work.

I am not a biologist but the "energy" i.e electricity is most likely involved in signaling the nervous system engage the reproductive activities. I really do not have all the facts about what makes the genitals do the work they do.

The off-topic question that arises in my mind is can this "energy" be increased by the methods of Yoga?

[CEL]

Yes, biological energy does work.

I am not a biologist but the "energy" i.e electricity is most likely involved in signaling the nervous system engage the reproductive activities. I really do not have all the facts about what makes the genitals do the work they do.

The off-topic question that arises in my mind is can this "energy" be increased by the methods of Yoga?

The electric signals between neurons are very low energy. You need to use electrodes in contact with the skin and high gain amplifiers to detect them. There is no need of high energy, since the neurons are very close to each other.
I don't think Yoga can increase that energy. And if it did, this increase would be useless.
But Yoga can supposedly increase what new agers call "energy", a transcendental entity not known by physics.

[AltScience]

The electric signals between neurons are very low energy. You need to use electrodes in contact with the skin and high gain amplifiers to detect them. There is no need of high energy, since the neurons are very close to each other.
I don't think Yoga can increase that energy. And if it did, this increase would be useless.
But Yoga can supposedly increase what new agers call "energy", a transcendental entity not known by physics.

The question is does the energy do work? Even very low energy does perform work.

Its not a question here to support the new age language describing "shifts in consciousness" as "Energy" which discussion is contrary to the posting guidelines, I believe.

Language is tricky. I am speculating about real energy based on real biological structures and not about the new age use of "energy" as a metaphor.

Yoga (Hatha Yoga) may involve structural changes to the body that increases the ability of this "physical" energy to do work. We see that it takes only very low amounts of energy for biological functions. I speculate that even the smallest increase may have an impact on health or consciousness.

It has been suggested in an article written for the alternative medicine community based on the work of George Crile that physically stressing the various glands of the body with various stretches will cause them to become stronger. In the same way that a muscle is built up by exertion it may be possible that the tissues of the glands may also be strengthened.

[Moonbear]

Yes, biological energy does work.

I am not a biologist...
Herein lies the problem. You are not a biologist, but want to make claims about biology, which are simply wrong.

but the "energy" i.e electricity is most likely involved in signaling the nervous system engage the reproductive activities. I really do not have all the facts about what makes the genitals do the work they do.
No, the nervous system functions through ion gradients...it's chemical, not electrical. And arousal of the genitals is due to a shift in blood flow. There is nothing special about the genitals compared to other parts of the body in terms of how they function.

[pallidin]

Hello all.

I have a personal experience with all this, so i hope that a personal experience conforms to the guidelines. If not, please let me know and I will refrain...

Anyway, I'm 49 now, but when I was about 15 I was into Yoga very much(as my mother taught yoga and classical dance)
Getting to the point, I decided one day to experiment with "awakening the chakras" in a secluded field next to a church.
Whatever I did(can't fully remember) caused a dramatic sensation within my naval area. What I do remember is that the sensation kept growing and eventually(a couple of minutes) felt so powerful that I got scared and stopped, even though I would describe it as "pleasant"
Never did it again.

Ever since, I've had an ability to do something weird, even though it doesn't seem to do anything(to my knowledge)...

What happens is that I can, at will and at any time, briefly concentrate in a way that I can't describe, and the result is that my entire body feels like it being hit with electricity.
Not a lot, probably about 1/4th that one experiences when touching a standard 9-volt battery to their tongue. But I feel it all over, and its not unpleasant.

I do not know what is happening, but I do know that there are no external effects(that I've been able to tell anyway).

My "gut" feeling is that I am simply somehow activating either my nervous system, a hormone "dump", or both. As opposed to some actual paranormal phenomenon.
Because of this I do not do this often. I'm concerned that I might adversely affect my nervous/hormonal system.

Anyway, it's weird and if I had the money I would go to a doctor and get hooked-up to whatever monitoring electronics to find out what it is and, especially, if it's harmful for me to do.

OK, enough of my rant. Thanks.

[AltScience]

Herein lies the problem. You are not a biologist, but want to make claims about biology, which are simply wrong.


No, the nervous system functions through ion gradients...it's chemical, not electrical. And arousal of the genitals is due to a shift in blood flow. There is nothing special about the genitals compared to other parts of the body in terms of how they function.


Moonbear,

I would not, for the sake of this arguement, admit to being simply wrong.

Ion gradiants? A quick google search shows that an ion gradiant is a electro-chemical reaction. I am only technically wrong in that I did not refer to the activity as electro-chemical and my speculation can hardly be discounted on that point.

"An ion gradient is a concentration gradient of ions, it can be called an electrochemical potential gradient of ions across membranes. "
http://www.bio-medicine.org/biology-definition/Ion_gradient/

I never refered to "arousal of the genitals" in terms of erection or erectile tissues but to the experience of an sensation that is localized in the genital region. I am going to speculate without doing research on the electro-chemical triggers to erection that "something" must signal the heart to pump blood to the gentials and that this "something" has to do with a electro-chemical charge that is associated with a hormonal response caused by some sort of reaction caused by a sexual stimuli.

The special thing about the genitals for the sake of this discussion, that has more to do with empirical observations than it does actual biological function, is that most of us are more aware of localized subtle changes in our genitals than in the adrenaline glands. We all understand that fight and flight are related to these glands but it does not manifest in the area of the glands the same way as the genitals.

[CRGreathouse]

AltScience, I think you need to find some evidence before continuing with your theories here. Speculation that things might just line up with your beliefs, without something backing it up, isn't special enough to merit discussion.

[DaveC426913]

...I decided one day to experiment with "awakening the chakras" in a secluded field next to a church.
Whatever I did(can't fully remember) caused a dramatic sensation within my naval area. What I do remember is that the sensation kept growing and eventually(a couple of minutes) felt so powerful that I got scared and stopped, even though I would describe it as "pleasant"
Never did it again.

At the very least, this will get you arrested. More likely, you will go blind. But doing it near a church is a free ticket to hell.

[Ivan Seeking]

AltScience, I think you need to find some evidence before continuing with your theories here. Speculation that things might just line up with your beliefs, without something backing it up, isn't special enough to merit discussion.

Correct. Describing personal experiences is perfectly acceptable, but the posting of personal theories that seek to explain those or other experiences is specifically forbidden. Explanations are limited to those that have either been published in an appropriate peer-reviewed journal, and/or those already considered to be common [scientific] knowledge.

[pallidin]

At the very least, this will get you arrested. More likely, you will go blind. But doing it near a church is a free ticket to hell.

Dave, that(what you are alluding to) is not even what I was talking about. But that's OK. I can see how that can be misinterpreted.

Get serious. This is no joke.

[DaveC426913]

Dave, that(what you are alluding to) is not even what I was talking about. But that's OK. I can see how that can be misinterpreted.

Get serious. This is no joke.
I was only half-joking.

Sexual arousal is 90% mental, 10% physical. I see no reason why it is not possible to generate feelings that are much like arousal purely with the power of thought.

While you may not have interpreted what you felt in the way I am interpreting it, that doesn't mean it wasn't virtually the same process.

P.S. Regarding getting serious, perhaps a science forum isn't the place to discuss chakras, hm? This thread is flirting with getting locked.

[lisab]

P.S. Regarding getting serious, perhaps a science forum isn't the place to discuss chakras, hm? This thread is flirting with getting locked.

Oh that was my first thought too, Dave...and second, and third, haha! But I hope it doesn't get locked, it's pure entertainment.

[Phrak]

At the very least, this will get you arrested. More likely, you will go blind. But doing it near a church is a free ticket to hell.

:rofl::rofl: Top form, Dave.

[Ivan Seeking]

Now now, I won't lock the thread but I will delete off-topic comments. We really can't allow even good-natured teasing. Members are specifically invited to share their experiences, so please be respectful of those who do.

Even if we assume that all exotic claims have prosaic explanations, I think we would all agree that the brain can play some very impressive tricks on the mind.

[Simple10]

What are the seven Chakras?

In Indian Medicine, Ayurveda, there are seven major chakras.

The body has seven major chakras and a great many lesser chakras or energy centers.

The major chakras recognized as focal points of the life-force.

Ayurveda teaches the prevention of disease, the rejuvenation of the body’s systems, and the extension of one’s life span. Through faithful practices, Ayurveda promises the prevention of heart disease and the freedom from pain. It is an integrated approach which relies upon lifestyle changes and natural therapies.
http://www.neurosurgical.com/neuro_medical_info/alternative_care/ayurveda.htm

According to Ayerveda Medicine the Chakras are:

Root Chakra
Navel Chakra
Solar Plexus Chakra
Heart Chakra
Throat Chakra
Crown Chakra
Brow Chakra


The Chakras are in the same location as glandular structures recognized by Western Medicine:


Gonads
Leydig Gland
Adrenal Glands
Thymus Gland
Thyroid Gland
Pituitary Gland
Pineal Gland


The only out of place items are the Crown Chakra/Pituitary Gland.
The Pituitary Gland, at the base of the skull, is a direct connection between the endocrine system and the nervous sytem through the Hypothalamus.

An educated guess is the Pituitary (indirectly) stimulates nerves (via the Hypothalamus) at the top of the head leading to the incorrect location. Also, 5000 years ago they most likely didn't have imaging equipment to determine absolutely precise locations.

@pallidin

Progressive relaxation will yield better results then trying to stimulate one Chakra/Gland.
You help all the energetic/glandular systems in this way.

[Moonbear]

According to Ayerveda Medicine the Chakras are:

Root Chakra
Navel Chakra
Solar Plexus Chakra
Heart Chakra
Throat Chakra
Crown Chakra
Brow Chakra


The Chakras are in the same location as glandular structures recognized by Western Medicine:


Gonads
Leydig Gland
Adrenal Glands
Thymus Gland
Thyroid Gland
Pituitary Gland
Pineal Gland


The only out of place items are the Crown Chakra/Pituitary Gland.
The Pituitary Gland, at the base of the skull, is a direct connection between the endocrine system and the nervous sytem through the Hypothalamus.

An educated guess is the Pituitary stimulates nerves at the top of the head leading to the incorrect location. Also, 5000 years ago they most likely didn't have imaging equipment to determine absolutely precise locations.
Nope. The pituitary controls the glands of the entire body. Endocrine glands aren't neural, they are ENDOCRINE, which means the hormones are released into the BLOOD to circulate around the entire body until they reach their targets, which in the case of the pituitary are all of the other endocrine organs of the body.

And, since endocrinology is part of my specialization area, I'm really curious to hear your explanation of what a leydig gland is. There are leydig CELLS in the testes (gonads), but no leydig "gland" and nothing near the navel.

The thymus is nearly absent in adults, as its main function is in the developing immune system.

The pineal gland is not near the brow. It sits just posterior and superior to the hypothalamus of the brain, in a region called the epithalamus.

The solar plexus is more properly called the coeliac plexus, and is a bundle of nerves around the aorta at about the level of the stomach or pancreas. It is located close to the midline of the body. The adrenal glands sit on top of the kidneys, located laterally in the body, so these are not in the same place. The renal arteries, which also provide branches to the adrenal glands, branch off the aorta inferior (lower) than the celiac plexus, so one could not even claim the blood supply originates at that location.

Again, this is sounding like people trying to fit completely outdated ideas to modern knowledge of biology and medicine without actually having a solid understanding of biology and medicine. It's like trying to justify alchemy by trying to stretch the comparisons to modern chemistry.

[Moonbear]

I never refered to "arousal of the genitals" in terms of erection or erectile tissues but to the experience of an sensation that is localized in the genital region. I am going to speculate without doing research on the electro-chemical triggers to erection that "something" must signal the heart to pump blood to the gentials and that this "something" has to do with a electro-chemical charge that is associated with a hormonal response caused by some sort of reaction caused by a sexual stimuli.

Those perceived sensations happen in the brain, not the genitals. Look up "limbic system."

[Simple10]

And, since endocrinology is part of my specialization area, I'm really curious to hear your explanation of what a leydig gland is. There are leydig CELLS in the testes (gonads), but no leydig "gland" and nothing near the navel.

The Leydig Gland is located in the mesonephros tissue. It is about the size of a pea and exists in all vertebrates. It was discovered in 1892 by Franz von Leydig, Professor of Comparative Anatomy, University of Tübingen in 1857 and University of Bonn in 1875.
If Endocrinology truly is your specialization, there may be a history book with your name as the person who discovered the functions of the Leydig Gland.

Nope. The pituitary controls the glands of the entire body. Endocrine glands aren't neural, they are ENDOCRINE, which means the hormones are released into the BLOOD to circulate around the entire body until they reach their targets, which in the case of the pituitary are all of the other endocrine organs of the body.
The Pituitary Gland, at the base of the skull, is a direct connection between the endocrine system and the nervous system through the Hypothalamus.
I don't see any contradiction comparing our statements. The Pituitary is linked to the Hypothalamus.

Are you trying to say that the Endocrine system has no effect on the Autonomic Nervous System and vice-versa?

The pineal gland is not near the brow. It sits just posterior and superior to the hypothalamus of the brain, in a region called the epithalamus.
Unfortunately I do not have access to imaging equipment.

The solar plexus is more properly called the coeliac plexus, and is a bundle of nerves around the aorta at about the level of the stomach or pancreas. It is located close to the midline of the body. The adrenal glands sit on top of the kidneys, located laterally in the body, so these are not in the same place. The renal arteries, which also provide branches to the adrenal glands, branch off the aorta inferior (lower) than the celiac plexus, so one could not even claim the blood supply originates at that location.
If the Adrenals turn the volume too loud, will it get on the coeliac plexus' nerves?

[Nick666]

I'm amazed that whoever invented these chackras, forgot about the *** hole. I mean really, you lose about an atomic bomb worth of energy through there, everyday.

[pallidin]

@ Simple 10

I remember now. What I was practising was Kundalini Awakening.
The pleasent but powerful energy I felt grew to about the size of a softball.
When I attempted to move it up, it moved, and it scared the heck out of me so I stopped.
Probably shouldn't have stopped, but it was seriously weird, and very powerful.

I found a web site referencing this. Not sure how accurate, but seems like what I was doing: http://www.swamij.com/kundalini-awakening.htm

pallidin

[turbo-1]

No, the nervous system functions through ion gradients...it's chemical, not electrical. And arousal of the genitals is due to a shift in blood flow. There is nothing special about the genitals compared to other parts of the body in terms of how they function.Yep! You can blush. Other things can happen, too.

[Math Is Hard]

I'm amazed that whoever invented these chackras, forgot about the *** hole. I mean really, you lose about an atomic bomb worth of energy through there, everyday.

The "base" or "root" chakra maps to that area.

(I live in California, so I know these things.)

[Simple10]

@ pallidin

Fear, doubt, condemnation, brings doubt, illness, fear, and then disillusion; and the hill to be climbed again.

Your Kundalini experience may have been incomplete, only rising part way up the spine.

Awakening the Kundalini is like college finals, there is a lot of study and preperation.
I show up at a college classroom and observe people taking their final test. I decide to take it along with them but I am unable to complete the test, only answering about a third of the questions, the rest I don't know the answers to. A difficult task for anyone.

With progressive relaxation, starting from the feet and going towards the head, you will accomplish a similar thing to Awakening the Kundalini and stimulate the chakras/glands without creating an imbalance by focusing on one chakra/gland, causing overstimulation, and in a slower more studied manner.
You will build other essential mental skills; improving concentration, overcoming distraction, learning to be sensitive to the physical body and it's processes, overcoming unrealistic emotions like fear (of suffocation while breathing).

I would do 4,5 or 10 cycles a day of progressive relaxation. Starting from the feet and working in large body groups, feet, calves, thighs, hips, waist, chest, hands, forearms, upper arm, shoulder, neck, head.
After doing this for a week or two, I would then begin to relax smaller areas, toes, soles, heel, top of foot, ankle...
After doing that for awhile you may become aware of individual muscle tensions or antsiness, it's time to reduce the size of the area of focus again to individual muscle sections. Your goal is to relax or dissipate that tension or antsiness when you reach the location through progression.
After accomplishing the dissipation of tension from individual muscles, you may become aware of sluggish or blocked pressure/energetic spots, mainly in the same muscles that experienced tension but no always.
You don't want to dissipate the pressure/energetic spots but open them up to allow stuck/sluggish pressure/energy to flow or flow better.
After accomplishing this you will be at a very deep level of relaxation.

This method is universal and has no requirement in a belief or dogma. You do not have to believe in Kundalini, Chakras, QI, or Glands for that matter, to benefit from the exercise. But it will stimulate them as a natural part of the process, in a much more encompassing method, in a slow and gentle manner that does not shock the system and allows for personal discovery.

Then, discover how an emotion creates a particular breathing pattern. learn to create an emotional state just by breathing in it's pattern.

If you have accomplished the above then you can move on to Awakening the Kundalini, if you so believe. Now you are ready, having dilligently studied and prepared for the finals.

@ nick666

In Traditional Chinese Medicine they believe while exercising you must keep the rectum contracted to prevent the leakage of vital force.

[freq_mod]

Interesting thread. I like yoga. I took a semester of it. I'd take it again. I mean what could be better than rolling around on the floor with a bunch of college girls for an hour or so.

I'm no expert in Hinduism, but I like certain aspects of it. I think the problem occurs when people take things literally. I tend to look at Hinduism, and all religions for that matter, metaphorically.For instance, Someone might have read or heard something about the "third eye". Some might take this to actually mean there is some sort of strange eye coming out of their forehead. Personally, I look at it as the ability to see with the mind. In other words, to use logic and reasoning.

All these things, like chakras and third eyes, were just ways people described and explained natural phenomena the best they could 5000 years ago.

[ibcnunabit]

I have heard of healing done through "chakra alignment" or something of the sorts... But is there even any way at all to see if it truly works? Or if it is the placebo affect only? I have a friend that works with this stuff, and she truly believes in what she does.... I am a skeptic personally, but when science has taken prayer and ruled out the placebo affect, I won't bet that chakras are nothing at all... But how do you rule out the placebo effect?


It would help if one could demonstrate that chakras were or weren't aligned, or even what a chakra was, as a phenomenon. Even if something corresponding to what is called a chakra exists, the lack of any demonstration of one lends a lot of doubt as to these "services" that are allegedly performed.

But, just as accupuncture meridians and "chi" has been identified as very real DC currents that naturally occur in the body (and help direct healing through normal physiological processes, for example--see The Body Electric), chakras may correspond to similar (or even the very same) sorts of cellular activity. Perhaps this will be discovered in the future. Until then, I have to take it all with a healthy dose of skepticism.

[ibcnunabit]

[QUOTE=Ms Music;2114261]Sorry CEL, I am swamped today and having a hard time finding the exact study with so little time (needless to say, googling "prayer" brings up so much garbage). The one I remember reading about, the people didn't even know that people were praying for them to rule out placebo. This study appears that the patients knew someone was praying for them, which doesn't rule out placebo.

The study you refer to (it was from Columbia University) is now a well-known fraud:

http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/200412/prayer-healing-hoaxes

http://www.csicop.org/si/2004-09/miracle-study.html

Its findings were loudly trumpeted in the media, but the discovery of fraud was much less reported. People still triumphantly refer to it as "proof that prayer works," but it's no such thing.

[ibcnunabit]

[QUOTE=Ms Music;2114261]

Again, sorry I couldn't find the right one, but I have no more time to search. This is the best I could find from a reputable source.

http://www.dukehealth.org/HealthLibrary/News/5056


Here are some reports and commentary on the findings of the Duke study:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,189691,00.html

http://www.dimaggio.org/Eye-Openers/prayer_does_not_work.htm

http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Prayer_does_not_help_heart_patients,_study_finds

http://articles.latimes.com/2006/mar/31/science/sci-prayer31

[Evo]

The Leydig Gland is located in the mesonephros tissue. It is about the size of a pea and exists in all vertebrates. It was discovered in 1892 by Franz von Leydig, Professor of Comparative Anatomy, University of Tübingen in 1857 and University of Bonn in 1875.
If Endocrinology truly is your specialization, there may be a history book with your name as the person who discovered the functions of the Leydig Gland.You must have gotten that bit of misinformation from an online source as I see it in several mystic misinformation sites. Moonbear is correct, it's Leydig cells.

[drezz1]

They are special points on the body through which money can be extracted from Californians.

That's one of the best responses I think I've seen on this site.

[Pythagorean]

Those perceived sensations happen in the brain, not the genitals. Look up "limbic system."

Can you say anymore about the phenomena you're referring to (at least it's name). The limbic system encompasses a bunch of different functions and I'm particularly interested in the difference between perceived sensations and "real" ones. By real, I mean that they actually originate from the nerve endings in a specific location on the body.

[Simple10]

You must have gotten that bit of misinformation from an online source as I see it in several mystic misinformation sites. Moonbear is correct, it's Leydig cells.

I prefer the horses mouth when it comes to quoting the "Mystic". Even well meaning authors have fabricated info stating it has come from the "mystic" in question but exists nowhere in his records.
Yet the books are still in multiple printings with out the corrections.

Regarding Leydig Cells, I did not state that "there is no Leydig cells". They exist in the reproductive organs. Discovered by Franz von Leydig.
I did state the addition, which has not been studied well since it's discovery in 1892, of the Leydig Gland which resides above the reproductive organs, between the genital bone and the kidneys is the region of the menosophrose tissue.

Rats and sharks are the only vertebrates that the Leydig Gland is being studied currently.

"The Leydig Glands are a series of branched tubular glands that secrete into the epididymus and ductus deferens. The Leydig gland is the modified anterior section of the menosophrose that produces and transmits a milky secretion that congeals into refractile bodies following fixation in formalin.
Jones and Lin (1993) conclude that the Leydig Gland secretions are the main source of the increase in protein concentration of the luminal fluid in the ductus deferens in Heterodontus."
Luminal Contents: Sertoli Cell Bodies, Sertoli Cell Cytoplasts, and Leydig Gland Bodies (http://books.google.com/books?id=ON-sPP5rowwC&pg=PA450&lpg=PA450&dq=leydig+gland+shark+study&source=bl&ots=rNBO2cMnN9&sig=Y43eNRVCXOsGurRecWVjsJc-5qc&hl=en&ei=yZ11SuLZMsKBtgfnjM2WCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1#v=onepage&q=&f=false)


The Leydig Gland
Who Named It (http://www.whonamedit.com/synd.cfm/624.html)

I have tried to access the University of Bonn website but could not get access to archives that might reveal Leydigs original work.

[addtional statements and link deleted by Ivan]

[Ivan Seeking]

I have tried to access the University of Bonn website but could not get access to archives that might reveal Leydigs original work.

If you can provide a source, we can explore the issue. You cannot make unsupported scientific claims and then reference a "psychic".

[imiyakawa]

From a qigong perspective, these are energy centres in the body in which chi is said to be stored and flow through. e.g. in the head, solar plexus, naval and some others. So yeah, they're claimed to be energy centres.

With qigong practice, you learn to move the chi around your body (it's always said to be moving, but you can feel it). It starts off feeling like a warm current flowing around your body then is said to feel like fire moving outside the body by more advanced practitioners.

You can gather this chi inside your naval (a 'chakra') and make a gumbling sound.

Here's a video; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oam9wCFFids

But i can't talk about 'chakras' from an Hindu perspective.. don't know anything about that.

[Pythagorean]

If you can provide a source, we can explore the issue. You cannot make unsupported scientific claims and then reference a "psychic".

Well, he did provide a quote from a biolgoical scientist. Here's the reference:

Evolution of the Vertibrate Epididymis
R.C. Jones
Dept of Biological Sciences
University of Newcastle

And here's a whole slew of journal articles on the Leydig gland from google scholar:

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&hs=xY3&q=%22Leydig%20gland%22&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=ws

I'm not saying anything about chakras, just pointing out that the Leydig gland seems to exist in biology literature. People who only found it on mystic sites were biasing their search with assumptions. Mystics draw off of real science plenty, it shouldn't discredit the fundamental scientific idea just because a mystic used it on their web page.

[Evo]

Well, he did provide a quote from a biolgoical scientist. Here's the reference:

Evolution of the Vertibrate Epididymis
R.C. Jones
Dept of Biological Sciences
University of Newcastle

And here's a whole slew of journal articles on the Leydig gland from google scholar:

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&hs=xY3&q=%22Leydig%20gland%22&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=ws

I'm not saying anything about chakras, just pointing out that the Leydig gland seems to exist in biology literature. People who only found it on mystic sites were biasing their search with assumptions. Mystics draw off of real science plenty, it shouldn't discredit the fundamental scientific idea just because a mystic used it on their web page.Uhm, did you notice that those are references to marine animals, not humans? Moonbear is correct, they don't exist in humans.

[Pythagorean]

Uhm, did you notice that those are references to marine animals, not humans? Moonbear is correct, they don't exist in humans.

To be fair, you've only just now added the qualifier "in humans" as far as I can tell in this thread. I'm nitpicking at the fact that the Leydig gland does exist, despite being on a mystic site. I don't care where it exists.

I'm not sure what's keeping this thread going; I hope we're not still holding out for evidence proving the existence of chakras...

[Ivan Seeking]

Well, he did provide a quote from a biolgoical scientist. Here's the reference:

What you can't see is what I deleted. :wink:

[Mk]

Now, I'm not an expert on chakras, but it seems to me that to really understand what they are we'd have to have a review of the philosophy of the region. It sounds like chakras are how people hold the various types of suffering. The types of suffering are distinguished from each other based on their causes.

There are three types of suffering in the philosophy that I am familiar with, dukkha-dukkha, viparinama dukkha, and sankhara dukkha. Pain, illness, old age, death, unmet expectations, and the realization that happy moments will not last. To eliminate this suffering humans must seek to eliminate desire, and seek to eliminate the illusory idea of "self."

Is not the idea of a "chakra" closely related to this? I have rarely heard of "chakras" from people claiming to be physicians, or referred to existing in a realm any other than spiritual metaphysics. If so, I think this thread would better be deserving of the philosophy or general discussion forum.

Also Dave, that was hilarious. I was quietly laughing for several minutes.