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View Full Version : Re: Update on acausality - attempts to debunk


Thomas Dent
Jun25-04, 07:16 AM
<jabberwocky><div class="vbmenu_control"><a href="jabberwocky:;" onClick="newWindow=window.open('','usenetCode','toolbar=no, location=no,scrollbars=yes,resizable=yes,status=no ,width=650,height=400'); newWindow.document.write('<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Usenet ASCII</TITLE></HEAD><BODY topmargin=0 leftmargin=0 BGCOLOR=#F1F1F1><table border=0 width=625><td bgcolor=midnightblue><font color=#F1F1F1>This Usenet message\'s original ASCII form: </font></td></tr><tr><td width=449><br><br><font face=courier><UL><PRE>"Charlie Stromeyer Jr." &lt;cstromey@hotmail.com&gt; wrote\n\n&gt; The comments I made earlier in this newsgroup in the message below\n&gt; about non-causality are still true for both theoretical and\n&gt; experimetal reasons, i.e. various non-causal phenomena have already\n&gt; been detected by experimentalists.\n\n&gt; [3] "Nutational Stimulated Photon Echoes", Optics Letters, v27(iss 13) (2002), pp..\n\nAs a public service I tried to read the Optics Letters article. Now I\nam not an expert in optics, but it seems that Charlie has been\nconfused by the terminology "noncausal direction".\n\nI quote: "It is well known that a probe pulse shorter than tau_21 has\nto be in the k+ direction to generate a real echo, which should\npropagate only along k- because of phase matching and causality" (...)\n"Instead of a brief pulse, we consider a quasi-continuous probe field,\nincident along k+" (...) "Typically, a brief probe along k- should\nnot generate an echo. But a quasi-continuous probe field along k-\ngives a different result." (...) "The field in noncausal direction k+\ndoes not cancel as is would for the typical brief pulse SPE". (...)\n\nNow, I\'m getting to the point:\n\n"Eq.(7) also represents an echo field with the same delay as the echo\nin the causal direction. The existence of this echo does not violate\ncausality. The reason that an echo occurs in the noncausal direction\nis that the probe pulse is longer than the delay tau_21. The front\npart of the probe pulse interacts with the grating and creates a\ncoherence that does not generate a propagating field because of the\nphase-matching condition. However the probe field incident into the\nmedium anytime tau_21 later than the front part rephases this\ncoherence into the propagating direction k+ and emits an echo."\n\nSo, on closer examination, the use of the phrase "noncausal direction"\nis only a piece of jargon that does not mean that causality is\nactually violated. I suspect that other supposed examples of causality\nviolation will also turn out actually to be examples of\nmisinterpretation.\n\nIt is hardly surprising that QED respects causality since the theory\nwas explicitly set up to do so.\n\nHowever, this does not rule out "faster-than-light" signalling:\nScharnhorst photons can do the trick. But they only exist in a context\nwhich explicitly breaks Lorentz invariance, such as between a pair of\nconducting plates. Hence they do not threaten causality directly.\n\n&gt; For instance, QED is the most overall accurate scientific theory ever.\n&gt; In a paper about acausality in QED [quant-ph/9802056], the author\n&gt; proves in section 5 that photons can exhibit acausal behavior in both\n&gt; time-like and/or space-like (superluminal speed) directions.\n\nAs for this paper, I am not sure if their results are correct, i.e.\nwhether their mathematical expressions for superluminal transmission\nactually represent something measurable, or only the fact that QM is a\nnonlocal theory. For example, if the wavefunction of a particle is\nnonvanishing at two spacelike separated points, there would appear to\nbe a finite probability of finding the particle at both points, in\nwhich case the particle could be said to have travelled faster than\nlight. Nevertheless, we do not see such things happening, which\nindicates that this interpretation of QM as acausal is incorrect, or\nat least incomplete. Similarly the Einstein-Podolsky-Rosen nonlocal\ncorrelations do not directly threaten causality. There is no evidence\nthat the future can influence the past.\n\nOne should keep in mind that any such explicit causality violation\ncapable of creating causal loops would likely produce an internally\ninconsistent theory: it would set up logical paradoxes and possible\nlead to divergent quantum fluctuations. (I don\'t have a reference for\nquantum fluctuations diverging close to causal loops, perhaps someone\ncan find it for me.)\n\n&gt; At first, one might suspect that such a result might rule out certain\n&gt; ideas within string theory such as some ideas about large extra\n&gt; dimensions.\n\nWhy?\n\n&gt; However, I myself would not make such a hypothesis for\n&gt; various reasons, e.g. I have not yet looked at any of the recent\n&gt; papers about photon propagation in noncommutative QED which of course\n&gt; is a different and perhaps more fundamental environment than the usual\n&gt; context for QED.\n\nNoncommutativity is of course another way of having a nonlocal theory,\nbut that doesn\'t necessarily imply lack of causality either.\n\n&gt; Albert Einstein once said which is that "No one really understands the\n&gt; nature of the photon". Richard Feynman also said or implied multiple\n&gt; times that no one really seems to understand QT.\n\nBut it doesn\'t follow from that that anything goes.\n\n&gt; At first, I thought that the AJL model must be flawed for reasons\n&gt; mentioned in post [1], however, this may no longer be the case because\n&gt; there are two recent papers which argue for separate reasons that\n&gt; superluminal signals may actually be compatible with GTR [3].\n\n&gt; &gt; [3] http://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/0304059\n\nThis is a different ref. [3]! - *one* paper by Graham Shore. I quote\nfrom p.25:\n\n"Serious conceptual issues do arise through the apparent prediction\n(...) of a superluminal speed of light. We have (...) discussed the\nsubtle questions of interpretation that arise. (...) It appears that\ndespite an anomalous refractive index featuring a superluminal\nlow-frequency phase (and signal) velocity, the critical high-frequency\nlimit which determines the characteristics or wavefront velocity\nremains equal to c. Nonetheless, we described how superluminal\nvelocities could be accommodated in the framework of GR while\npreserving the essential notion of stable causality."\n\nSo Shore doesn\'t support the thesis that QED in curved space can\nviolate causality.\n\n&gt; 1) Various quantum phenomena have already been demonstrated to be\n&gt; "noncausal" both theoretically and sometimes even experimentally. (...)\n&gt; except for the one very important conundrum I ask about below, the\n&gt; term "noncausal" means only that there is no discernable and meaningful\n&gt; dependence upon causality which is different from the idea that there\n&gt; is some kind of explicit violation of Einstein causality via\n&gt; superluminal signals.\n\nThis is confused. Causality means exactly that one can define a past\n\'light-cone\' and it is distinct from the future \'light-cone\'. Either a\ngiven phenomenon is consistent with causality, in which case it makes\nno sense to call it "noncausal", or it violates casuality. Also,\nsuperluminal signals do *not* imply causality violation unless you\nalso have unbroken global Lorentz invariance. See section 5.1 in the\nShore paper http://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/0304059. The curved backgrounds\nand SEP-violating theories in which superluminal propagation appears\nto happen do not have the required global Lorentz invariance.\n\n&gt; For instance, experiments with TmYAG crystals have shown that\n&gt; stimulated photon ehoes (SPEs) can exist in the noncausal direction\n&gt; [3]\n\nDebunked above.\n\n&gt; and separate experiments have shown that the phase and energy of\n&gt; a photon pulse can travel faster than c, the speed of light in a\n&gt; vacuum, but there does not (yet, anyways) seem to be meaningful\n&gt; information transmitted via superluminal signals due to cancellation\n&gt; of such potential superluminal signals because of complicated\n&gt; diffraction and diffusion effects [4].\n\n&gt; [4] J.J. Carey et al., Phys Rev Lett, v84(no7) (2000), p.1431.\n\nI\'m not sure that the experiment really shows that energy can travel\nfaster than c, or whether they are just cutting off the back of a\npulse and then noting that the pulse centroid is superluminal. The\nShore paper says the energy-transfer velocity is always &lt; c (p.16).\n\nNote that the interpretation of the Carey paper is disputed by Mochan\nand Brudny. Carey et al. reply that they never meant to imply that\ncausality was violated: "We believe that it should be possible to\nprove theoretically that casuality is not violated in FTIR". See Phys.\nRev. Lett. 87, 119102 (2001).\n\n&gt; Suppose that one definition of the presence of "acausality" would be\n&gt; the existence of uncertainty which is clearly non-statistical (or\n&gt; non-probabilistic). Well, this is what happens in the photon\n&gt; experiment described in this brief four page paper\n&gt; http://www.arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0102109,\n&gt; yet there are no superluminal communications necssarily entailed !\n\nNow you have changed the definition of acausality, hence it is not\nsurprising that the meaning of the word has also changed. Let us read\nthe abstract:\n\n"The photon\'s wave function affects only one out of the atoms,\nregardless of its position within the row, thereby manifesting not\nonly non-local but also non-sequential characteristics. It also turns\nout that, out of n atoms, each one has a probability which is higher\nthan the normal 1/n to be the single affected one."\n\nWhy should we read any further? We are to believe that there exist n\npositive numbers, each of which is greater than 1/n, but that still\nsum to 1. This is indeed non-statistical and non-probabilistic, but\nalso non-sensical.\n\n&gt; Thomas, since you are from Scandinavia you should heed what the Prince\n&gt; of Denmark once said and also do not forget about ghosts :-)\n\nPrecisely, ghosts are non-physical; and the Prince of Denmark never\nspoke those words, only an actor on a stage.\n\n&gt; http://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/0403121\n\nNote that this last paper (which I am not endorsing!) *defends* the\nnotion of a casual arrow of time which distinguishes the future from\nthe past.\n\n</UL></PRE></font></td></tr></table></BODY><HTML>');"> <IMG SRC=/images/buttons/ip.gif BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER ALT="View this Usenet post in original ASCII form">&nbsp;&nbsp;View this Usenet post in original ASCII form </a></div><P></jabberwocky>"Charlie Stromeyer Jr." <cstromey@hotmail.com> wrote

> The comments I made earlier in this newsgroup in the message below
> about non-causality are still true for both theoretical and
> experimetal reasons, i.e. various non-causal phenomena have already
> been detected by experimentalists.

> [3] "Nutational Stimulated Photon Echoes", Optics Letters, v27(iss 13) (2002), pp..

As a public service I tried to read the Optics Letters article. Now I
am not an expert in optics, but it seems that Charlie has been
confused by the terminology "noncausal direction".

I quote: "It is well known that a probe pulse shorter than \tau_21 has
to be in the k+ direction to generate a real echo, which should
propagate only along k- because of phase matching and causality" (...)
"Instead of a brief pulse, we consider a quasi-continuous probe field,
incident along k+" (...) "Typically, a brief probe along k- should
not generate an echo. But a quasi-continuous probe field along k-
gives a different result." (...) "The field in noncausal direction k+
does not cancel as is would for the typical brief pulse SPE". (...)

Now, I'm getting to the point:

"Eq.(7) also represents an echo field with the same delay as the echo
in the causal direction. The existence of this echo does not violate
causality. The reason that an echo occurs in the noncausal direction
is that the probe pulse is longer than the delay \tau_21. The front
part of the probe pulse interacts with the grating and creates a
coherence that does not generate a propagating field because of the
phase-matching condition. However the probe field incident into the
medium anytime \tau_21 later than the front part rephases this
coherence into the propagating direction k+ and emits an echo."

So, on closer examination, the use of the phrase "noncausal direction"
is only a piece of jargon that does not mean that causality is
actually violated. I suspect that other supposed examples of causality
violation will also turn out actually to be examples of
misinterpretation.

It is hardly surprising that QED respects causality since the theory
was explicitly set up to do so.

However, this does not rule out "faster-than-light" signalling:
Scharnhorst photons can do the trick. But they only exist in a context
which explicitly breaks Lorentz invariance, such as between a pair of
conducting plates. Hence they do not threaten causality directly.

> For instance, QED is the most overall accurate scientific theory ever.
> In a paper about acausality in QED [http://www.arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/9802056], the author
> proves in section 5 that photons can exhibit acausal behavior in both
> time-like and/or space-like (superluminal speed) directions.

As for this paper, I am not sure if their results are correct, i.e.
whether their mathematical expressions for superluminal transmission
actually represent something measurable, or only the fact that QM is a
nonlocal theory. For example, if the wavefunction of a particle is
nonvanishing at two spacelike separated points, there would appear to
be a finite probability of finding the particle at both points, in
which case the particle could be said to have travelled faster than
light. Nevertheless, we do not see such things happening, which
indicates that this interpretation of QM as acausal is incorrect, or
at least incomplete. Similarly the Einstein-Podolsky-Rosen nonlocal
correlations do not directly threaten causality. There is no evidence
that the future can influence the past.

One should keep in mind that any such explicit causality violation
capable of creating causal loops would likely produce an internally
inconsistent theory: it would set up logical paradoxes and possible
lead to divergent quantum fluctuations. (I don't have a reference for
quantum fluctuations diverging close to causal loops, perhaps someone
can find it for me.)

> At first, one might suspect that such a result might rule out certain
> ideas within string theory such as some ideas about large extra
> dimensions.

Why?

> However, I myself would not make such a hypothesis for
> various reasons, e.g. I have not yet looked at any of the recent
> papers about photon propagation in noncommutative QED which of course
> is a different and perhaps more fundamental environment than the usual
> context for QED.

Noncommutativity is of course another way of having a nonlocal theory,
but that doesn't necessarily imply lack of causality either.

> Albert Einstein once said which is that "No one really understands the
> nature of the photon". Richard Feynman also said or implied multiple
> times that no one really seems to understand QT.

But it doesn't follow from that that anything goes.

> At first, I thought that the AJL model must be flawed for reasons
> mentioned in post [1], however, this may no longer be the case because
> there are two recent papers which argue for separate reasons that
> superluminal signals may actually be compatible with GTR [3].

> > [3] http://arxiv.org/abs/http://www.arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/0304059

This is a different ref. [3]! - *one* paper by Graham Shore. I quote
from p.25:

"Serious conceptual issues do arise through the apparent prediction
(...) of a superluminal speed of light. We have (...) discussed the
subtle questions of interpretation that arise. (...) It appears that
despite an anomalous refractive index featuring a superluminal
low-frequency phase (and signal) velocity, the critical high-frequency
limit which determines the characteristics or wavefront velocity
remains equal to c. Nonetheless, we described how superluminal
velocities could be accommodated in the framework of GR while
preserving the essential notion of stable causality."

So Shore doesn't support the thesis that QED in curved space can
violate causality.

> 1) Various quantum phenomena have already been demonstrated to be
> "noncausal" both theoretically and sometimes even experimentally. (...)
> except for the one very important conundrum I ask about below, the
> term "noncausal" means only that there is no discernable and meaningful
> dependence upon causality which is different from the idea that there
> is some kind of explicit violation of Einstein causality via
> superluminal signals.

This is confused. Causality means exactly that one can define a past
'light-cone' and it is distinct from the future 'light-cone'. Either a
given phenomenon is consistent with causality, in which case it makes
no sense to call it "noncausal", or it violates casuality. Also,
superluminal signals do *not* imply causality violation unless you
also have unbroken global Lorentz invariance. See section 5.1 in the
Shore paper http://arxiv.org/abs/http://www.arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/0304059. The curved backgrounds
and SEP-violating theories in which superluminal propagation appears
to happen do not have the required global Lorentz invariance.

> For instance, experiments with TmYAG crystals have shown that
> stimulated photon ehoes (SPEs) can exist in the noncausal direction
> [3]

Debunked above.

> and separate experiments have shown that the phase and energy of
> a photon pulse can travel faster than c, the speed of light in a
> vacuum, but there does not (yet, anyways) seem to be meaningful
> information transmitted via superluminal signals due to cancellation
> of such potential superluminal signals because of complicated
> diffraction and diffusion effects [4].

> [4] J.J. Carey et al., Phys Rev Lett, v84(no7) (2000), p.1431.

I'm not sure that the experiment really shows that energy can travel
faster than c, or whether they are just cutting off the back of a
pulse and then noting that the pulse centroid is superluminal. The
Shore paper says the energy-transfer velocity is always < c (p.16).

Note that the interpretation of the Carey paper is disputed by Mochan
and Brudny. Carey et al. reply that they never meant to imply that
causality was violated: "We believe that it should be possible to
prove theoretically that casuality is not violated in FTIR". See Phys.
Rev. Lett. 87, 119102 (2001).

> Suppose that one definition of the presence of "acausality" would be
> the existence of uncertainty which is clearly non-statistical (or
> non-probabilistic). Well, this is what happens in the photon
> experiment described in this brief four page paper
> http://www.arxiv.org/abs/http://www.arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0102109,
> yet there are no superluminal communications necssarily entailed !

Now you have changed the definition of acausality, hence it is not
surprising that the meaning of the word has also changed. Let us read
the abstract:

"The photon's wave function affects only one out of the atoms,
regardless of its position within the row, thereby manifesting not
only non-local but also non-sequential characteristics. It also turns
out that, out of n atoms, each one has a probability which is higher
than the normal 1/n to be the single affected one."

Why should we read any further? We are to believe that there exist n
positive numbers, each of which is greater than 1/n, but that still
sum to 1. This is indeed non-statistical and non-probabilistic, but
also non-sensical.

> Thomas, since you are from Scandinavia you should heed what the Prince
> of Denmark once said and also do not forget about ghosts :-)

Precisely, ghosts are non-physical; and the Prince of Denmark never
spoke those words, only an actor on a stage.

> http://arxiv.org/abs/http://www.arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/0403121

Note that this last paper (which I am not endorsing!) *defends* the
notion of a casual arrow of time which distinguishes the future from
the past.

Charlie Stromeyer Jr.
Jun25-04, 07:17 PM
<jabberwocky><div class="vbmenu_control"><a href="jabberwocky:;" onClick="newWindow=window.open('','usenetCode','toolbar=no, location=no,scrollbars=yes,resizable=yes,status=no ,width=650,height=400'); newWindow.document.write('<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Usenet ASCII</TITLE></HEAD><BODY topmargin=0 leftmargin=0 BGCOLOR=#F1F1F1><table border=0 width=625><td bgcolor=midnightblue><font color=#F1F1F1>This Usenet message\'s original ASCII form: </font></td></tr><tr><td width=449><br><br><font face=courier><UL><PRE>This is an initial and partial reply, and I will try to reply more\nthis weekend when I have more time available for doing so.\n\nThomas Dent &lt;tdent@auth.gr&gt; wrote in message, reply to me (C.Stromeyer):\n\n&gt; &gt; ... [3] "Nutational Stimulated Photon Echoes", Optics Letters, v27(iss\n&gt; &gt; 13) (2002), pp..\n&gt;\n&gt; As a public service I tried to read the Optics Letters article. Now I\n&gt; am not an expert in optics, but it seems that Charlie has been\n&gt; confused by the terminology "noncausal direction".\n\nPerhaps the confusion here is merely one of sematics or linguistics,\nand so let us first consider the three words "noncausal", "acausal"\nand "anticausal". Of course, the meaning of each of these terms will\ndepend upon the specific context in which they are used.\n\nFor instance, F. Kleefeld has developed theories known as\n"(anti)causal (non)abelian quantum theories" in papers such as\n[hep-th/0310204]. Although I have never even looked at his papers, his\nuse of the term "(anti)causal" should have a different meaning than\nthe use of the word "anticausal" in ideas such as Hoyle\'s Distant\nAction Cosmology or Wheeler\'s Geometrodynamics.\n\n&gt; So, on closer examination, the use of the phrase "noncausal direction"\n&gt; is only a piece of jargon that does not mean that causality is\n&gt; actually violated.\n\nCorrect. By "noncausal" I meant merely that there does not appear\n(yet, anyways) to be a clarified dependence upon causality. By\ncontrast and AFAIK, there is no good experimental evidence which has\nshown a significant violation of Einstein causality.\n\nI do not know if English is your native language as it is mine, but at\ndifferent times in my life I have also known French, German and\nRussian. Although I have now mostly forgotten these other three\nlanguages, I would say that English is the most complicated and\nconfusing language for non-native speakers. For instance, the word\n"asocial" has a different meaning than the word "antisocial", and\nlikewise so can the words "amoral" and "immoral", e.g. babies might be\nsaid to be "amoral", but no sane person would call these cute, little\nand cuddly babies "immoral" :-)\n\n&gt; However, this does not rule out "faster-than-light" signalling:\n&gt; Scharnhorst photons can do the trick. But they only exist in a context\n&gt; which explicitly breaks Lorentz invariance, such as between a pair of\n&gt; conducting plates. Hence they do not threaten causality directly.\n\nStephen Hawking once famously wrote or said, "God not only plays dice;\nhe also sometimes throws the dice where they cannot be seen". I\npresume that when he made this comment he was referring to some high\nenergy consideration such as black holes, or do you know if he meant\nin this particular case instead/also some low energy consideration?\n\n&gt; &gt; At first, one might suspect that such a result might rule out certain\n&gt; &gt; ideas within string theory such as some ideas about large extra\n&gt; &gt; dimensions.\n&gt;\n&gt; Why?\n\nI wrote the word "might" twice because the only ideas in string theory\ncosmology which I have read about are some papers on black holes,\nholography, the cosmological constant and Susskind\'s idea of Poincare\nrecurrence. Since I have never really tried to seriously read or think\nabout ideas involving large extra dimensions, I am not familiar with\nsuch ideas. I have heard about some branes model idea in which photons\nare supposed to remain "stuck on the brane", and so I was just\nguessing that perhaps these branes photons would not be capable of\n"acausal" behavior.\n\n&gt; &gt; Albert Einstein once said which is that "No one really understands the\n&gt; &gt; nature of the photon". Richard Feynman also said or implied multiple\n&gt; &gt; times that no one really seems to understand QT.\n&gt;\n&gt; But it doesn\'t follow from that that anything goes.\n\nWell, Feynman loved music and so perhaps he was also a fan of the\nclassic Cole Porter song "Anything Goes" :-)\n\n&gt; "The photon\'s wave function affects only one out of the atoms,\n&gt; regardless of its position within the row, thereby manifesting not\n&gt; only non-local but also non-sequential characteristics. It also turns\n&gt; out that, out of n atoms, each one has a probability which is higher\n&gt; than the normal 1/n to be the single affected one."\n&gt;\n&gt; Why should we read any further? We are to believe that there exist n\n&gt; positive numbers, each of which is greater than 1/n, but that still\n&gt; sum to 1. This is indeed non-statistical and non-probabilistic, but\n&gt; also non-sensical.\n\nExactly. However, some people (not necessarily me) believe that weird\nlogics such as quantum logic or fuzzy logic may play some role in\ntrying to understand nature. These two author have written a\nsubsequent paper about cosmology with some updated arguments called\n"Is there more to T?". Since you seem to be an expert on cosmology, I\nwould be curious to know what you think of this paper which is easy to\nread and here is the paper\'s abstract:\n\n"We present some novel results indicating that time\'s description in\npresent-day physics is deficient. We use Hawking\'s information-erasure\nhypothesis to counter his own claim that time\'s arrow depends only on\ninitial conditions. Next, we propose quantum mechanical experiments\nthat yield inconsistent histories, suggesting that not only events but\nalso entire histories might be governed by a more fundamental\ndynamics."\n\nfrom [quant-ph/0207029]\n\n</UL></PRE></font></td></tr></table></BODY><HTML>');"> <IMG SRC=/images/buttons/ip.gif BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER ALT="View this Usenet post in original ASCII form">&nbsp;&nbsp;View this Usenet post in original ASCII form </a></div><P></jabberwocky>This is an initial and partial reply, and I will try to reply more
this weekend when I have more time available for doing so.

Thomas Dent <tdent@auth.gr> wrote in message, reply to me (C.Stromeyer):

> > ... [3] "Nutational Stimulated Photon Echoes", Optics Letters, v27(iss
> > 13) (2002), pp..
>
> As a public service I tried to read the Optics Letters article. Now I
> am not an expert in optics, but it seems that Charlie has been
> confused by the terminology "noncausal direction".

Perhaps the confusion here is merely one of sematics or linguistics,
and so let us first consider the three words "noncausal", "acausal"
and "anticausal". Of course, the meaning of each of these terms will
depend upon the specific context in which they are used.

For instance, F. Kleefeld has developed theories known as
"(anti)causal (non)abelian quantum theories" in papers such as
[http://www.arxiv.org/abs/hep-th/0310204]. Although I have never even looked at his papers, his
use of the term "(anti)causal" should have a different meaning than
the use of the word "anticausal" in ideas such as Hoyle's Distant
Action Cosmology or Wheeler's Geometrodynamics.

> So, on closer examination, the use of the phrase "noncausal direction"
> is only a piece of jargon that does not mean that causality is
> actually violated.

Correct. By "noncausal" I meant merely that there does not appear
(yet, anyways) to be a clarified dependence upon causality. By
contrast and AFAIK, there is no good experimental evidence which has
shown a significant violation of Einstein causality.

I do not know if English is your native language as it is mine, but at
different times in my life I have also known French, German and
Russian. Although I have now mostly forgotten these other three
languages, I would say that English is the most complicated and
confusing language for non-native speakers. For instance, the word
"asocial" has a different meaning than the word "antisocial", and
likewise so can the words "amoral" and "immoral", e.g. babies might be
said to be "amoral", but no sane person would call these cute, little
and cuddly babies "immoral" :-)

> However, this does not rule out "faster-than-light" signalling:
> Scharnhorst photons can do the trick. But they only exist in a context
> which explicitly breaks Lorentz invariance, such as between a pair of
> conducting plates. Hence they do not threaten causality directly.

Stephen Hawking once famously wrote or said, "God not only plays dice;
he also sometimes throws the dice where they cannot be seen". I
presume that when he made this comment he was referring to some high
energy consideration such as black holes, or do you know if he meant
in this particular case instead/also some low energy consideration?

> > At first, one might suspect that such a result might rule out certain
> > ideas within string theory such as some ideas about large extra
> > dimensions.
>
> Why?

I wrote the word "might" twice because the only ideas in string theory
cosmology which I have read about are some papers on black holes,
holography, the cosmological constant and Susskind's idea of Poincare
recurrence. Since I have never really tried to seriously read or think
about ideas involving large extra dimensions, I am not familiar with
such ideas. I have heard about some branes model idea in which photons
are supposed to remain "stuck on the brane", and so I was just
guessing that perhaps these branes photons would not be capable of
"acausal" behavior.

> > Albert Einstein once said which is that "No one really understands the
> > nature of the photon". Richard Feynman also said or implied multiple
> > times that no one really seems to understand QT.
>
> But it doesn't follow from that that anything goes.

Well, Feynman loved music and so perhaps he was also a fan of the
classic Cole Porter song "Anything Goes" :-)

> "The photon's wave function affects only one out of the atoms,
> regardless of its position within the row, thereby manifesting not
> only non-local but also non-sequential characteristics. It also turns
> out that, out of n atoms, each one has a probability which is higher
> than the normal 1/n to be the single affected one."
>
> Why should we read any further? We are to believe that there exist n
> positive numbers, each of which is greater than 1/n, but that still
> sum to 1. This is indeed non-statistical and non-probabilistic, but
> also non-sensical.

Exactly. However, some people (not necessarily me) believe that weird
logics such as quantum logic or fuzzy logic may play some role in
trying to understand nature. These two author have written a
subsequent paper about cosmology with some updated arguments called
"Is there more to T?". Since you seem to be an expert on cosmology, I
would be curious to know what you think of this paper which is easy to
read and here is the paper's abstract:

"We present some novel results indicating that time's description in
present-day physics is deficient. We use Hawking's information-erasure
hypothesis to counter his own claim that time's arrow depends only on
initial conditions. Next, we propose quantum mechanical experiments
that yield inconsistent histories, suggesting that not only events but
also entire histories might be governed by a more fundamental
dynamics."

from [http://www.arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0207029]

Charlie Stromeyer Jr.
Jun28-04, 08:50 AM
<jabberwocky><div class="vbmenu_control"><a href="jabberwocky:;" onClick="newWindow=window.open('','usenetCode','toolbar=no, location=no,scrollbars=yes,resizable=yes,status=no ,width=650,height=400'); newWindow.document.write('<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Usenet ASCII</TITLE></HEAD><BODY topmargin=0 leftmargin=0 BGCOLOR=#F1F1F1><table border=0 width=625><td bgcolor=midnightblue><font color=#F1F1F1>This Usenet message\'s original ASCII form: </font></td></tr><tr><td width=449><br><br><font face=courier><UL><PRE>This is the other part of my reply:\n\n&gt; Thomas Dent &lt;tdent@auth.gr&gt; wrote in message news:\n\n&gt; As a public service I tried to read the Optics Letters article. Now I\n&gt; am not an expert in optics, ...\n\nI am not an expert in quantum optics either but this may be okay\nbecause, contrary to Lubos\'s views, another Czech-born thinker, Kurt\nGodel, once said, "I do not believe in natural sciences." tee, hee\nhee :-)\n\n&gt; As for this paper, I am not sure if their results are correct, i.e.\n&gt; whether their mathematical expressions for superluminal transmission\n&gt; actually represent something measurable, or only the fact that QM is a\n&gt; nonlocal theory. For example, if the wavefunction of a particle is\n&gt; nonvanishing at two spacelike separated points, there would appear to\n&gt; be a finite probability of finding the particle at both points, in\n&gt; which case the particle could be said to have travelled faster than\n&gt; light.\n\nThe authors claim that merely "knowing" the physical electrcal field\nin the past and future is sufficient for the photon to be localized\nwith finite probability in a presently null field spatial region (i.e.\nwith no EM fields present). Although I do not see any mathematical\nerrors in Section 5, I must admit to you that I do not really\nunderstand the physics of this paper.\n\nPerhaps someone with more insight about this could try to explain it\nsome to us. Also within the context of QED, there is another paper\nwhich argues that _potentially_ acausal effects _might_ interfere with\nthe engineering and use of quantum nanostructures ["Nonlocality and\nQuantum Nanostructures", I. Antoniou, E. Karpov and G. Pranko, Chaos,\nSolitons and Fractals, v.17 (2003), pp.277-281].\n\nHowever, since we already know that QED is the most overall accurate\nscientific theory ever, some might believe that the burden of proof or\nonus should be upon the string theorists to explain why these two\npapers are either wrong, irrelevant or even compatible with string\ntheory.\n\n&gt; Noncommutativity is of course another way of having a nonlocal theory,\n&gt; but that doesn\'t necessarily imply lack of causality either.\n\nI have not looked at any of the recent papers about noncommutative\nQED, but there might be a fundamental physical difference between the\nNC of space-space coordinates vs. the NC of space-time coordinates.\nThe latter case could have an infinite number of time derivatives of\nfields in the Lagrangian and would be neither Lorentz covariant nor\n_causal_ wrt to a fixed (Poisson) tensor.\n\nHowever, I don\'t know if this would actually mean anything for NC QED\nbecause I have not looked at this issue closely in about 2.5 years.\nPerhaps someone such as Lubos might know more about these physics\nconsiderations, but I will mention something about the math involved.\nBesides Alain Connes\' famous approach to NC geometry, there are at\nleast 4 or 5 other ways to construct a theory of NCG, but I do not\nknow if anyone has thought seriously yet about whether these\nalternatives might or might not be relevant for string theory physics.\n\n&gt; So Shore doesn\'t support the thesis that QED in curved space can\n&gt; violate causality.\n\nYes, and this was also the point I was implying, but I probably did\nnot express myself clearly enough in a linguistic sense.\n\nLet us also consider an important question which lies at the heart of\nthis discussion: In the beginning of his book, The Elegant Universe,\nBrian Greene writes it seems that both QT and GTR cannot both be\ncorrect within their conventional frameworks. Then, at a more\nfundamental level, does the universe seem more quantum or more\nrelativistic?\n\nWell, C.M. Hull was once wrote some interesting papers about the idea\nof a possible relativity principle underlying M-theory such that the\ndimensions, topology and signatures of space-time would be "relative"\n[hep-th/9911080]. AFAIK, no one really understands yet what this\nrelativity principle should be.\n\nHowever, as you might or might not remember, I prefer those ideas\nwhich have been suggested for such a relativity principle which\ninherently involve a notion of "triality" such as in paper\n[hep-th/0005035]. I also posted earlier about some more roles for\nsimilar SO(8) or S_3 triality within the foundations of M-theory:\n\nhttp://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=61773ed7.0405152023.45a34996-100000%40posting.google.com\n\nNote that such non-associative geometry can provide a unifying\nframework for discrete and continous descriptions of spacetime. This\nview is related to much of what I have been saying in this newsgroup,\nthe particular mathematics that I am now trying to develop some, and\nthis view is also shared by the authors of a new preprint which\nappeared yesterday on hep-th about FRW spacetime within the context of\nnon-associative geometry [hep-th/0406229].\n\nHowever, if some string theorists might want to know whether and how\nall of this is relevant for string theory physics then they will have\nto take the initiative to work out the necessary details because my\nprimary motivation is otherwise:\n\nBefore my father retired from his two departments at Harvard\nUniversity, he used to automatically receive a free subscription to\nthe American magazine "Physics Today" and then he would also give the\nissues to me so that I could look at them. In early 1996, I read the\nfirst thing I had ever seen about the idea of M-theory which was a\nsummary/intro article by Edward Witten intended for readers who were\nnot already string theorists.\n\nAlthough I thought the article was well written, I was of course not\nreally able to understand what he was saying about physics for a\nmultitude of reasons. However, I got the initial impression from this\narticle that if M-theory should be true then the underlying\nmathematics might be very beautiful, powerful, and perhaps even\nunifying or simplifying.\n\nEver since, I have been occasionally trying to even just glimpse what\nthis math might look like and this is my primary goal reagrding the\nidea of M-theory. I am not necessarily mainly interested in all kinds\nof theoretical physics or phenomenological ideas, e.g. the vast and\ncomplicated details of particle physics phenomenology are beyond my\nexpertise, time and especially my interest.\n\n&gt; "The photon\'s wave function affects only one out of the atoms,\n&gt; regardless of its position within the row, thereby manifesting not\n&gt; only non-local but also non-sequential characteristics. It also turns\n&gt; out that, out of n atoms, each one has a probability which is higher\n&gt; than the normal 1/n to be the single affected one."\n&gt;\n&gt; Why should we read any further? We are to believe that there exist n\n&gt; positive numbers, each of which is greater than 1/n, but that still\n&gt; sum to 1. This is indeed non-statistical and non-probabilistic, but\n&gt; also non-sensical.\n\nFreeman Dyson once famously wrote or said, "For any speculation which\ndoes not at first glance look crazy, there is no hope." Are you\nimplying that you may be smarter than Dyson ?-) Of course, I am only\nkidding with you and it is only because I love humor (even bad or\nstupid jokes too :-)\n\nWhile I am here posting, I will mention that there are also some other\nnew hep-th preprints which I suggest that Urs Schreiber (or anyone\nelse who may be interested) should look at as you have time for doing\nso:\n\nA. Bergman & U. Varadarajan\'s paper about loop groups, KK reduction\nand M-theory [hep-th/0406218]\n\nS. Patil\'s paper about D0 matrix theory in the large N limit\n[hep-th/0406219]\n\nM. Bauer et al.\'s paper about generalized parallel transports\n[hep-th/0406221]\n\nAdditionally, if Urs has finally succeeded in quantum cloning his own\nmind :-) then he may also have the time to look at a paper about\nU-duality [hep-th/0406223] which pertains to something that Lubos once\ntold us a few weeks ago in this newsgroup, and a paper about heterotic\nstrings and quantum cohomology [hep-th/0406226].\n\nI have not yet looked at this latter paper but it reminds me that a\nmathematician whose name, IIRC, was something like Adrian Clingher\nonce wrote a paper about the B-field and the heterotic string which I\nposted a reference to in sci.physics.research about 20 months ago in a\nreply to a question from one of the Australian experts on gerbes.\n\n-------------------------------------------------------------------------\n\n"Politics is for the moment, but an equation is for eternity."\n- Albert Einstein\n\nPerhaps we should take a moment to pray and hope that America\'s\ncurrent political situation will only be "for the moment".\n\n-------------------------------------------------------------------------\n\n</UL></PRE></font></td></tr></table></BODY><HTML>');"> <IMG SRC=/images/buttons/ip.gif BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER ALT="View this Usenet post in original ASCII form">&nbsp;&nbsp;View this Usenet post in original ASCII form </a></div><P></jabberwocky>This is the other part of my reply:

> Thomas Dent <tdent@auth.gr> wrote in message news:

> As a public service I tried to read the Optics Letters article. Now I
> am not an expert in optics, ...

I am not an expert in quantum optics either but this may be okay
because, contrary to Lubos's views, another Czech-born thinker, Kurt
Godel, once said, "I do not believe in natural sciences." tee, hee
hee :-)

> As for this paper, I am not sure if their results are correct, i.e.
> whether their mathematical expressions for superluminal transmission
> actually represent something measurable, or only the fact that QM is a
> nonlocal theory. For example, if the wavefunction of a particle is
> nonvanishing at two spacelike separated points, there would appear to
> be a finite probability of finding the particle at both points, in
> which case the particle could be said to have travelled faster than
> light.

The authors claim that merely "knowing" the physical electrcal field
in the past and future is sufficient for the photon to be localized
with finite probability in a presently null field spatial region (i.e.
with no EM fields present). Although I do not see any mathematical
errors in Section 5, I must admit to you that I do not really
understand the physics of this paper.

Perhaps someone with more insight about this could try to explain it
some to us. Also within the context of QED, there is another paper
which argues that _potentially_ acausal effects _might_ interfere with
the engineering and use of quantum nanostructures ["Nonlocality and
Quantum Nanostructures", I. Antoniou, E. Karpov and G. Pranko, Chaos,
Solitons and Fractals, v.17 (2003), pp.277-281].

However, since we already know that QED is the most overall accurate
scientific theory ever, some might believe that the burden of proof or
onus should be upon the string theorists to explain why these two
papers are either wrong, irrelevant or even compatible with string
theory.

> Noncommutativity is of course another way of having a nonlocal theory,
> but that doesn't necessarily imply lack of causality either.

I have not looked at any of the recent papers about noncommutative
QED, but there might be a fundamental physical difference between the
NC of space-space coordinates vs. the NC of space-time coordinates.
The latter case could have an infinite number of time derivatives of
fields in the Lagrangian and would be neither Lorentz covariant nor
_causal_ wrt to a fixed (Poisson) tensor.

However, I don't know if this would actually mean anything for NC QED
because I have not looked at this issue closely in about 2.5 years.
Perhaps someone such as Lubos might know more about these physics
considerations, but I will mention something about the math involved.
Besides Alain Connes' famous approach to NC geometry, there are at
least 4 or 5 other ways to construct a theory of NCG, but I do not
know if anyone has thought seriously yet about whether these
alternatives might or might not be relevant for string theory physics.

> So Shore doesn't support the thesis that QED in curved space can
> violate causality.

Yes, and this was also the point I was implying, but I probably did
not express myself clearly enough in a linguistic sense.

Let us also consider an important question which lies at the heart of
this discussion: In the beginning of his book, The Elegant Universe,
Brian Greene writes it seems that both QT and GTR cannot both be
correct within their conventional frameworks. Then, at a more
fundamental level, does the universe seem more quantum or more
relativistic?

Well, C.M. Hull was once wrote some interesting papers about the idea
of a possible relativity principle underlying M-theory such that the
dimensions, topology and signatures of space-time would be "relative"
[http://www.arxiv.org/abs/hep-th/9911080]. AFAIK, no one really understands yet what this
relativity principle should be.

However, as you might or might not remember, I prefer those ideas
which have been suggested for such a relativity principle which
inherently involve a notion of "triality" such as in paper
[http://www.arxiv.org/abs/hep-th/0005035]. I also posted earlier about some more roles for
similar SO(8) or S_3 triality within the foundations of M-theory:

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=61773ed7.0405152023.45a34996-100000%40posting.google.com

Note that such non-associative geometry can provide a unifying
framework for discrete and continous descriptions of spacetime. This
view is related to much of what I have been saying in this newsgroup,
the particular mathematics that I am now trying to develop some, and
this view is also shared by the authors of a new preprint which
appeared yesterday on hep-th about FRW spacetime within the context of
non-associative geometry [http://www.arxiv.org/abs/hep-th/0406229].

However, if some string theorists might want to know whether and how
all of this is relevant for string theory physics then they will have
to take the initiative to work out the necessary details because my
primary motivation is otherwise:

Before my father retired from his two departments at Harvard
University, he used to automatically receive a free subscription to
the American magazine "Physics Today" and then he would also give the
issues to me so that I could look at them. In early 1996, I read the
first thing I had ever seen about the idea of M-theory which was a
summary/intro article by Edward Witten intended for readers who were
not already string theorists.

Although I thought the article was well written, I was of course not
really able to understand what he was saying about physics for a
multitude of reasons. However, I got the initial impression from this
article that if M-theory should be true then the underlying
mathematics might be very beautiful, powerful, and perhaps even
unifying or simplifying.

Ever since, I have been occasionally trying to even just glimpse what
this math might look like and this is my primary goal reagrding the
idea of M-theory. I am not necessarily mainly interested in all kinds
of theoretical physics or phenomenological ideas, e.g. the vast and
complicated details of particle physics phenomenology are beyond my
expertise, time and especially my interest.

> "The photon's wave function affects only one out of the atoms,
> regardless of its position within the row, thereby manifesting not
> only non-local but also non-sequential characteristics. It also turns
> out that, out of n atoms, each one has a probability which is higher
> than the normal 1/n to be the single affected one."
>
> Why should we read any further? We are to believe that there exist n
> positive numbers, each of which is greater than 1/n, but that still
> sum to 1. This is indeed non-statistical and non-probabilistic, but
> also non-sensical.

Freeman Dyson once famously wrote or said, "For any speculation which
does not at first glance look crazy, there is no hope." Are you
implying that you may be smarter than Dyson ?-) Of course, I am only
kidding with you and it is only because I love humor (even bad or
stupid jokes too :-)

While I am here posting, I will mention that there are also some other
new hep-th preprints which I suggest that Urs Schreiber (or anyone
else who may be interested) should look at as you have time for doing
so:

A. Bergman & U. Varadarajan's paper about loop groups, KK reduction
and M-theory [http://www.arxiv.org/abs/hep-th/0406218]

S. Patil's paper about D0 matrix theory in the large N limit
[http://www.arxiv.org/abs/hep-th/0406219]

M. Bauer et al.'s paper about generalized parallel transports
[http://www.arxiv.org/abs/hep-th/0406221]

Additionally, if Urs has finally succeeded in quantum cloning his own
mind :-) then he may also have the time to look at a paper about
U-duality [http://www.arxiv.org/abs/hep-th/0406223] which pertains to something that Lubos once
told us a few weeks ago in this newsgroup, and a paper about heterotic
strings and quantum cohomology [http://www.arxiv.org/abs/hep-th/0406226].

I have not yet looked at this latter paper but it reminds me that a
mathematician whose name, IIRC, was something like Adrian Clingher
once wrote a paper about the B-field and the heterotic string which I
posted a reference to in sci.physics.research about 20 months ago in a
reply to a question from one of the Australian experts on gerbes.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Politics is for the moment, but an equation is for eternity."
- Albert Einstein

Perhaps we should take a moment to pray and hope that America's
current political situation will only be "for the moment".

-------------------------------------------------------------------------