View Full Version : Suggestion Direction of PF
I don't like the direction PF has gone. It's not the same place I first joined in 03. It's very nontechnical and feels like it's been over-run by students who don't bother doing the very basic studying or reading on their own.
All the people are gone too: mathwonk, daniel, clausius, krab, ...list goes on.
Perhaps we should rename the forums "Homework Help Zone"?
Friends I have from PF back when it started up share my feelings.
I don't offer a solution, just pointing out what I see. I also notice my motivation to post here is going down. :(
Someone smarter than me needs to think about a way to get PF back on track and bring in some expertise that’s no longer here anymore. I don't see much of anything of value at all in the engineering forums, or any new faces that do actual engineering work. Just cranks that want to build pet projects.
Anyways, it's late. Goodbye.
This may not make a huge difference, but maybe it's worth changing the title from 'Physics Help and Math Help' to something that doesn't make it sound like it's simply for homework? This is what shows up in google, and it may prevent more knowledgable people from clicking on the link.
I don't like the direction PF has gone. It's not the same place I first joined in 03. It's very nontechnical and feels like it's been over-run by students who don't bother doing the very basic studying or reading on their own.
In 6 years your idea about what is technical and what is not surely have changed. I am not saying there were no evolution, I am not that long here, but I am sure you and your point of vew have changed since 2003.
berkeman
Oct26-09, 04:39 PM
I don't see much of anything of value at all in the engineering forums, or any new faces that do actual engineering work. Just cranks that want to build pet projects.
I don't think you stop by the EE forum much, Cyrus. It's humming along quite nicely, thank you. :approve:
In 6 years your idea about what is technical and what is not surely have changed. I am not saying there were no evolution, I am not that long here, but I am sure you and your point of vew have changed since 2003.
That's true, but also the ratio of students to expects has shifted in the wrong direction. That's why PF used to be so good. The problem is that I have not seen any new members (experts) joining PF for, say, engineering. Not one - in years. Which means any experts that pass by dont deem PF worth their time joining.
berkeman
Oct26-09, 05:52 PM
Again, not true in EE, Cyrus. We've had some new folks join in the past couple of years, and they have proven to be very knowledgable and helpful. Guess you're mainly addressing ME?
Again, not true in EE, Cyrus. We've had some new folks join in the past couple of years, and they have proven to be very knowledgable and helpful. Guess you're mainly addressing ME?
True, I don't do EE work, so I never venture into that part of the forum. AE and ME, is regress for the last several years.
Moonbear
Oct26-09, 07:31 PM
I kind of agree with Cyrus' observation. I think a lot of it is that the people visiting for help in the HW forums have grown greatly out of proportion of new people visiting for professional interest, and those who are professionals in the field (I'd include grad students and post-docs in that category), seem to spend a lot more time answering homework questions, or very simple questions that could be answered by a quick glance at a textbook, and those questions don't develop into a discussion at all because they are done once they get a straightforward answer. The rest of the professionals are busy moderating such a large forum.
Though, berkeman, how many are "some" that have joined EE? And over the past "couple" years? What about in the past year or past 6 months? And how many have stayed and actively contribute to new discussions other than helping with homework questions? I do think we get plenty of altruistic people who like helping with homework, but at some point, we need more higher level discussions to provide something back to those who are doing so much helping.
I know I often have felt the same way about the biology and med sci forum. When most of the questions get answered with a standard textbook answer, or "you need to see a doctor," that doesn't leave much interest to visit often.
Well me for one try to take part in the EE forum but most of my time is spent learning from the Physics sections. I bet there a lot of members that browse and learn without posting.
I think that the frequency of quality, professional posts (i.e. posts per day) has remained the same, or gone up, over the years. I also think that the frequency of silly-kid posts has gone up over the years, so that it now encompasses a larger fraction of the total posts made each day.
We have taken steps to prevent the site from becoming solely a homework-help forum:
1) LaTeX was intended to attract a professional audience who needs its sophistication to express high-level mathematical statements.
2) The homework help forum was split off from all of the discussion forums, so that people can choose whether or not to participate.
3) The three-question "show us where you're stuck" format was put in place to prevent drive-by / desperate / silly questions, as well as to discourage others from feeding such trolls.
If we desire to increase the fraction of professional activity (and I'm not sure that we do), we only have two choices: increase the number of professionals or decrease the number of homework-help seekers.
It would be unfair to actively try to turn away homework-help seekers, so we're left with only the first option.
Greg had the brilliant idea of encouraging people to post PF fliers around university campuses, which may end up having a large effect.
Perhaps we can take a page from the creationist/atheist debates elsewhere on the internet by sponsoring public debates, between the experts we already have on board, on the many open topics in science. A separate peanut gallery thread would be created for each such debate. They might provide a way to focus our expert talent, and elevate it above the day-to-day chatter.
I might also consider a Control Panel setting to literally hide the homework help forums, so that members who just don't want to participate in them can remove them from their searches and New Posts listings.
- Warren
Redbelly98
Oct26-09, 08:13 PM
This may not make a huge difference, but maybe it's worth changing the title from 'Physics Help and Math Help' to something that doesn't make it sound like it's simply for homework? This is what shows up in google, and it may prevent more knowledgable people from clicking on the link.
You may have a good point there. Something along the lines of "discussion and help", instead of just saying "help". And maybe adding "Physics, math, and technical", or something to that effect, to encourage people in the engineering and "other sciences" to come join.
... how many are "some" that have joined EE? And over the past "couple" years? What about in the past year or past 6 months? And how many have stayed and actively contribute to new discussions other than helping with homework questions? I do think we get plenty of altruistic people who like helping with homework, but at some point, we need more higher level discussions to provide something back to those who are doing so much helping.
Without checking, I can immediately name vk6kro and negitron, who both joined in the past spring or early summer, and have contributed a lot to non-HW EE discussions. (Unfortunately we lost negitron.) Of course this is just one forum of many here.
I'm with chroot, that we shouldn't be discouraging the homework section just to increase the percentage of more professional discussions. If we do anything, it should be looking for ways to increase traffic in the professional forums.
Moonbear
Oct26-09, 09:19 PM
I'm with chroot, that we shouldn't be discouraging the homework section just to increase the percentage of more professional discussions. If we do anything, it should be looking for ways to increase traffic in the professional forums.
I agree on this point too. But, at some point, we'll run out of people to help with the hw sections if we can't keep enough professionals around. Maybe it just has to level out naturally, that enough HW threads will go unanswered that growth there will stabilize. I'm pretty sure chroot has hit upon the reason for the imbalance, that one section is growing much faster than the others.
Unfortunately, moving the HW questions to a HW forum isn't being done consistently. There are still a lot of very basic questions showing up in the main forums that are drowning out any hope of more in-depth discussions.
I don't think it's necessary to hide the HW forums, as I don't think seeing them is part of the problem. The problem is more the lack of meaty debate in the main forums. I like chroot's idea of initiating some such debates just to entice people to regain some interest in that. I think there's a lot of mental inertia about getting such discussions going, and something to reinvigorate interest in more than just providing homework help may be all that's needed.
My point is that PF used to be a place full of experts, with some people (me, and some other members that joined around the same time) asking questions and learning. Now we (batch from around when I joined) mostly graduated top of the class and are finishing grad school. The posts used to have equations, were typed well, no one text-spoke, and the questions were mainly conceptual.
Now its: "hey guyz! Can u do diz problm 4 me?"
and its ALL over the place. They post their homework questions EVERYWHERE.
I'd much rather see PF be a place full of experts in industry and academia (which it used to be).
Can anyone name a single new Aerospace engineer thats joined PF since I signed up (03)? I can tell you one that did stop buy: he was a professor and worked in industry for 30 years. He suck around for about a month, and then he left for good. Thats the kind of people you want to stick around. Yeah, its good to help students with their homework, but the mission should be to have a collection of experts. Student's shouldn't take priority. (In fact student's didn't take priority when I joined, which is why it was good. There wasn't homework help sections). I'm not saying get rid of HW help. But HW help shouldn't bleed into any other section of PF. It's like the floodgates are opened and HW questions are spewed all over the place. On top of that, there are "nonacademics" who ask the most basic questions a google search could answer. I don't understand why their threads don't get deleted. Example: "How does an airplane generate lift?" We get that a million times. Try GOOGLE. Then come back when you have a specific thing to ask. At some point, you waste your time repeating yourself: so I just don't answer that question anymore.
In my opinion:
I, myself am in my last year of high school. I have used this forum for a year and a little bit. I love reading questions from peers at my level, helping teach others what others have taught myself. I see it in a selfish way, if i can explain it then i can confidently say i know it. However, this forum has played a major, MAJOR role in sparking my interest in physics.
I will be going into undergraduate commerce next year, however, several of my elective credits most likely will be attained towards a minor in science. Just because i LIKE it. While some may not think so, i frequently visit the quantum mechanics forums, engineering forums and so forth. Nonetheless i can't say i understand the topics there, but i find it heavily intriguing and thought-provoking. This community has made me ask many more questions about the world around us, some of which have my physics teacher stumped. I slightly had a theory about Bernoulli's equation and principles before i knew such a thing existed. I spent an hour or so trying to figure out how the forces act on an airplane when it's in flight, after consulting with my teacher she tutored me in the subject. I didn't think it would have to do with "fluids."
Do note, that you are leaving out a major factor of this communities future success. You may see it from your point of view, but it's people like me who create futures for these communities. Im sure the things i have learned here won't be forgotten and will probably make me a very seasoned member of these boards one day. There are others like me, and even more dedicated to the subject than myself. Most people -im sure- have found this forum because they had a question, or were looking for a community to discuss these topics. The people who you help on homework, not all of them are these selfish leechers. I do what i can, what i can do is limited. However i believe later on ill be able to become a greater asset.
Remember that, the majority of the people attracted to these boards are here to ask for help. Even though that may be true and there is a percentage who will not come back and just take what they need. People as young as i can, can still love and have passion for the science. Help them today, and they may end up helping you in the future. Call me ignorant, but i believe you lack this certain point of view.
~Senjai
My point is that PF used to be a place full of experts, with some people (me, and some other members that joined around the same time) asking questions and learning. Now we (batch from around when I joined) mostly graduated top of the class and are finishing grad school. The posts used to have equations, were typed well, no one text-spoke, and the questions were mainly conceptual. Actually, people are often amazed at the lack of quality of many of the threads from several years ago. Our rules were much more lax and a lot of garbage was allowed. You won't see that tolerated now.
Now its: "hey guyz! Can u do diz problm 4 me?"
and its ALL over the place. They post their homework questions EVERYWHERE. Posts of this kind are moved or deleted, as appropriate, as soon as they are found. I personally think that we do not have enough moderators to handle the increase in threads. We basically have the same number of moderators that we did 3 years ago handling a disproportional increase in posts, and several of the moderators have had to siginificantly cut their time here back.
I'd much rather see PF be a place full of experts in industry and academia (which it used to be). I think your "memories" may be a bit colored.
Sure we could try to limit the forum to a handful of academics engaged in serious discussion, but that's not going to bring more traffic to this forum. Don't forget, real professionals have their own professional forums where they go to discuss issues with their peers. Certainly we want to attract high quality professionals here, but I think we have created a rather successful model based on Greg's vision for a site where students could come for help.
Sure we could try to limit the forum to a handful of academics engaged in serious discussion, but that's not going to bring more traffic to this forum. Don't forget, real professionals have their own professional forums where they go to discuss issues with their peers. Certainly we want to attract high quality professionals here, but I think we have created a rather successful model based on Greg's vision for a site where students could come for help.
Google Aerospace forums. You get two hits, PF, and another forum that sucks. I have not seen/found any such forum on this topic that is good. Why not make this that place?
A side: It would be very nice to require people to put their backgrounds into their profile in terms of education level:
no background
high school
college undergrad
grad
PhD
industry professional
..etc.
So people can gauge what kind of technical reply to give.
Well me for one try to take part in the EE forum but most of my time is spent learning from the Physics sections. I bet there a lot of members that browse and learn without posting.
+OneUP
I'm with Borek. It is just like listening to old people talk about how things were so much more difficult in their day or how kids these days don't have to work for anything.
Google Aerospace forums. You get two hits, PF, and another forum that sucks. I have not seen/found any such forum on this topic that is good. Why not make this that place? First, a physics forum probably isn't the first place a person would look.
I'll relate conversations I had with several of the famous scientists (my friends) that I tried to get to post here. They said that professionally, they had their own places online where they discussed "work" with their peers and it wasn't open to the public. You won't find them on the internet.
A side: It would be very nice to require people to put their backgrounds into their profile in terms of education level:This was discussed and it was decided that people would very likely lie about their level. It should be apparent fairly quickly after a couple of pointed questions what their "real" level of knowledge is.
This was discussed and it was decided that people would very likely lie about their level. It should be apparent fairly quickly after a couple of pointed questions what their "real" level of knowledge is.
If they lie, kick em out.
I'm with Borek. It is just like listening to old people talk about how things were so much more difficult in their day or how kids these days don't have to work for anything.
I don't think you understand what I'm saying. Were you posting here back in 03?
berkeman
Oct27-09, 12:10 AM
Unfortunately, moving the HW questions to a HW forum isn't being done consistently. There are still a lot of very basic questions showing up in the main forums that are drowning out any hope of more in-depth discussions.
All posts that are reported as misplaced homework get moved, AFAIK. There is a problem with homework being reported in the Math forums, but whatever.
If anyone reports a post as misplaced homewok, and doesn't see it moved within a day or so, please PM me. Some of us Mentors are less active on weekends, so please keep that in mind.
It seems the academic forums just wait for a new member to post a question, answer it, discuss if it's interesting, and move on. Then they will flash neon lights again and wait for another moth to ask a new question so to speak.
On the other hand, the lounge section is modeled on the blog, where the same users generate new topics every day that get six pages of responses, whether it's about a weird news event, showing off pics of recent vacation, dating advice or participating in contests. The users are active and have fun.
Some time ago, berkeman started a thread in the EE section, that discussed and encouraged to solve together good/bads circuit designs which were taken from a classic EE book. If I remember correctly, the thread generated lots of responses, and was fun for those participating, and I'm sure interesting to the lurkers as well.
So I wonder what would happen, if the experts in their fields start a blog like thread on an interesting topic, and lead the users to come up with a solution, sort of like a problem and perhaps taken from real life. For example, if Cyrus likes aerospace, show a pic of some wing you've taken, then show us how do a lift calculation and how it is related to an F16. I'm sure someone would find this interesting. Sometimes people just don't know what to ask.
Pengwuino
Oct27-09, 02:31 AM
This was discussed and it was decided that people would very likely lie about their level. It should be apparent fairly quickly after a couple of pointed questions what their "real" level of knowledge is.
I like the idea as well. I don't get why people lying is a big deal. I don't even think they would lie. You typically lie about something that can't be easily revealed as a lie; level of education is not something you can fake too easily.
Then again, I'm getting my masters in physics.
GIGGLE.
Cyclovenom
Oct27-09, 03:47 AM
I think one of the main problems is we keep losing quality people or quality people post way less than before. Where is Morbius? Clausius? Krab? Enigma? Mathwonk? Matt Grime? Shmoe? Galileo?... and the list goes on...
Is the net number of quality people joining vs leaving positive or negative? Are we losing our human resources?
I also agree with Cyrus. Background will be nice.
I don't think you understand what I'm saying. Were you posting here back in 03?
And I don't think s/he understood what I have said.
Wallace
Oct27-09, 05:50 AM
<my 2c>
I pretty much only post in astro/cosmo and occasionally in relativity, so my comments only apply to those sections. As I see it the way things work here are pretty good, and certainly better than most other comparable forums. The thing that prevents PF attracting more genuine pros, and what drives those who do stop by away, is IMO the tendancy for badged SA's and even staff to propogate some well know myths and misconceptions. There are some tricky issues in cosmology, but seeing the local experts posting things that you'd chastise your students for doesn't make hanging around an attractive option. Of course one can discuss these questions (a badge certainly doesn't indicate infallibility) however some abiding myths have proved hard to shake, not that my own efforts in that regard have always been exemplorary.
It is difficult because there is an inherent attractiveness to giving a coherent, well phrased and understandable explanation, even if the explanation is in fact incorrect on some level. It's all very well to demand technical correctness, but does that then put the explanation beyond the reach of the person asking the question? Certainly I haven't yet found a good way to explain some important concepts in Cosmology without either invoking difficult concepts or accepting some level of incorrectness in the explanation.
What I do see an element of is the blind leading the blind, when someone says "gee thanks, that explanation really help clear things up" naturally one feels re-inforced in your belief that the knowledge being imparted is useful, regardless of the technical correctness of the response.
I'm not suggesting that astro/cosmo is full of crazy loons, on the whole the level of discussion and explanations are very good, surprisingly good for a open public forum. How to solve the issues I've pointed out to improve things further is something I'm not sure of, and may not really be possible.
</my 2c>
And I don't think s/he understood what I have said.
I replied to what you said, Borek. There is some truth to it, but I have talked to many 'old time members' of PF who agree with me.
I honestly don't know why w3390 is speaking about matters which he knows nothing about since he wasn't here back in 03.
ZapperZ
Oct27-09, 06:19 AM
I think one of the main problems is we keep losing quality people or quality people post way less than before. Where is Morbius? Clausius? Krab? Enigma? Mathwonk? Matt Grime? Shmoe? Galileo?... and the list goes on...
Is the net number of quality people joining vs leaving positive or negative? Are we losing our human resources?
I also agree with Cyrus. Background will be nice.
I think we need to back off a little bit here before we make the SAME type of mistakes as crackpots do, i.e. confusing correlation as causation. You, and most people here, have no way of knowing if these people left because of PF, or if their lives have changed, and PF is just not a big part anymore! People's lives DO change!
I've been on forums and BBS's (before the internet became "popular") for a long time (show of hands for anyone who's been on some sort of a BBS before 1987), and what is happening here isn't unique! CHANGE is what is common, even more so now since people are so connected and there are so many options. It is MORE unusual that there are so many people who stick around for more than 3 years and contributing at the usual pace. So before we start attributing something without any basis, think a little bit of what you are saying!
And I have no idea where cyrus got the impression that he got. I'd like to see some statistics before I'd buy into it, rather than just simply based on some vague impression. If I come in and claim the opposite, how are we to know who's right? Anecdotal evidence? Don't get me started on that.
Zz.
I've been on forums and BBS's (before the internet became "popular") for a long time (show of hands for anyone who's been on some sort of a BBS before 1987)
Lol, I started around 1990 (mostly QWK & SLMR) and I consider myself one of the oldest "on the wires". But you have to remember that at this time we were here hopelessly behind in terms of access to technology.
Wow, there is a wiki page for QWK but not one for SLMR.
Greg Bernhardt
Oct27-09, 06:47 AM
I am currently out of town, but I am keeping track of this thread. I just wanted to say I appreciate the many interesting ideas and opinions that are being expressed. Let's keep it going. When I get back Ill look more deeply into things.
Whatever it was like in '03 (I don't know since I wasn't there), I think we all agree that it would be great to have more experts participating here. I like chroot's idea of organizing debates between experts and other such forum events; they are fun and will definitely increase and focus the activity.
redargon
Oct27-09, 08:54 AM
Cyrus, I just had a look at the first page of the threads that you have started and I didn't see anything there that was academic or professional. The best one you have is an ancient post about what would happen if you were at the centre of the earth and another is your "day in the life of an aerospace engineer" blog. You're by no means asking HW questions, but you're also not really stimulating academic discussions yourself. Maybe more experts and professionals would be more inclined to discuss some topics with you if you started some decent ones up.
I'm an aeronautical engineer, but I don't fit into your expert category; I didn't pursue a PHD, I did not graduate top of my class and I don't work in the aerospace industry at the moment, I work for a commercial design company, but I think that I can contribute to many discussions that you would like to have about AE or ME as they are still my passions and I have "enough" knowledge about them to make, usually, relative remarks.
I'm also not a huge fan of all the HW questions, but I try and help out where I can and I ignore the silly questions and trolls. There are a lot of people out there that prefer to discuss their answers with a person and not with Google and I often suggest more reading material for many people so that they can continue if they're interested in a googly fashion. These people that we help now could be the experts in the years to come.
arildno
Oct27-09, 08:54 AM
Okay, Cyrus, here's a bit statistics:
Using search criteria:
900+ posts (krab had 918)
join date prior to 01-01-2006
last post prior to july 2009 (otherwise, matt grime and mathwonk would be left out), we get the list:
http://www.physicsforums.com/memberlist.php?&pp=30&order=asc&sort=username&postslower=900&joindatebefore=2006-01-01&lastpostbefore=2009-07-01
This consists of 82 members.
If we let last post end prior to july 2008, our list contains 47 names, prior du july 2007, 32 names, and prior to july 2006, 16 names.
Make of it what you want
arildno
Oct27-09, 09:48 AM
To take one particular statistic:
If you look at 1000+ posters having joined prior to 2004, we had 72 such members.
Of these, 37 have posted after July 2009.
To have a 50%+ retainment rate of those early members is quite impressive, IMO (or depressing on part of those members, depending on your view..:smile:)
500-1000 posts: early posters (pre-2004) 7 out of 31 still active (defined as after july 2009)
200-500 posts: early posters 19 out of 95 still active
10-200 posts: early posters 37 out of 721 still active.
0-10 posts: early posters 4 out of 906 still "active".
Q_Goest
Oct27-09, 10:02 AM
I'd like to see some statistics before I'd buy into it, rather than just simply based on some vague impression. If I come in and claim the opposite, how are we to know who's right? Anecdotal evidence? Don't get me started on that.
Zz.
I think a good measure would be to graph SA and HH medals given out over the years. Has this gone up or down?
I think one of the main problems is we keep losing quality people or quality people post way less than before. Where is Morbius? Clausius? Krab? Enigma? Mathwonk? Matt Grime? Shmoe? Galileo?... and the list goes on....I know one was terminally ill, 3 said they had to leave because of work, one moved to another country with grad school and said he'd be too busy.
Q_Goest
Oct27-09, 10:35 AM
My impression of PF is that they fill a niche, that being academia, so most of the people here are students.
From my experience (aerospace engineering 8 years, industry 13 years) there’s a world of difference between engineering students and practicing engineers. Students are more focused on learning the concepts and theory. Practicing engineers are focused on more practical aspects such as making something work as economically as possible. It’s all about the application of theory to every day design.
Take for example Eng-Tips.com where students are excluded from posting. It’s a board even larger than PF. I think the primary reason they don’t allow students to post is that many if not most students believe their education has provided sufficient experience to tackle real world issues, but experience is one of those things you get immediately after you need it. So to reduce bad advice and flame wars, they simply ban any student from posting.
I think PF should stay on the course they are and remain in the niche they are in. I think we have a good number of practicing professionals, but they often have a different perspective on engineering than students. And that’s ok.
arildno
Oct27-09, 10:41 AM
Furthermore, of the 900+ posters joining sometime in 2004, 51 out of 78 are still active.
Cyclovenom
Oct27-09, 10:49 AM
Hey ZZ, Actually I was asking if anybody knows if we are losing more people vs getting new people, and by people I meant quality posters like yourself.
I think PF just needs to focus more on keeping their good posters.
Dembadon
Oct27-09, 12:28 PM
I have not been a member of PF for very long, but I can tell you that I am here to stay. I created a profile to ask for some academic guidance. At the time, I did not realize the incredible resource I had stumbled upon. After an hour or so of poking around, I decided to contribute financially. This is really the only way I can give back at this current point in time given that I have just returned to school.
I fully intend to be, and to become, a member who helps PF maintain and grow in it's status as a great source of intellectual stimulation, sound guidance, and professional discourse. I believe another user, redargon, made an excellent point by illuminating the fact that many of the newer members, as we obtain more knowledge and experience, will help to fill the gaps created by those who have left or are no longer posting as much.
This brings me to a snippet I've taken of ZZ's post:
... CHANGE is what is common, even more so now since people are so connected and there are so many options. It is MORE unusual that there are so many people who stick around for more than 3 years and contributing at the usual pace. So before we start attributing something without any basis, think a little bit of what you are saying! ...
I realize that great minds are hard to find, and it is difficult when good friends move on, but I really believe in the people here. Change is very uncomfortable at first, but we've got a great set of minds here that can help the change be positive in nature.
We've got some good suggestions so far; my personal favorite being Warren's idea of creating debate topics which stimulate professional discussion.
Moonbear
Oct27-09, 12:31 PM
Furthermore, of the 900+ posters joining sometime in 2004, 51 out of 78 are still active.
And where are they posting? GD, HW Help, or actively contributing to scientific content? I think that's the issue at hand, more than have some of us stuck around a long time. There are a bunch of us spending a lot more time in GD nowadays because there just isn't anything new on the main forums of interest.
Part of it might be that we've gotten too restrictive on what is allowed to be discussed. I know WHY we have the rules we do about sticking to mainstream science and peer-reviewed articles, and was even one of the supporters of creating those rules. But, now that they've been in place for a while and we can see the full impact of them, I think it limits some of the fun that scientists like to have of bouncing around sometimes slightly off-the-wall ideas, not necessarily because they think it's going to work as presented, but because it stimulates some creative discussion from which a genuinely good idea might arise. Afterall, this is what we go to conferences for too, to talk to people about current work that isn't yet peer-reviewed, or to sit around having a few beers at a nearby pub and bounce around crazy ideas until one that's not so crazy emerges that develops into a collaborative project.
Wallace
Oct27-09, 12:39 PM
In my experience, the kind of discussions of crazy ideas over a beer at a conference would not fall outside the PF guidelines, at least not the way they are used in practice. There are plenty of threads which technically discuss non-peer reviewed ideas, but that are clearly not the work of nutjobs. Full credit to the moderators who in my view exercise very good judgement in keeping interesting threads open even if one could lock them on a strict interpretation of the guidelines.
Having the rules in place gives mods the option, but it isn't invoked by default. I've yet to see an interesting thread locked, but plenty of un-interesting threads based on 'ideas' that are simply half-baked misunderstandings do get locked.
My view is perhaps skewed by the fact I only post and read in astro/cosmo, so bear that in mind.
FredGarvin
Oct27-09, 12:45 PM
I can't believe I am going to say this, but I think that we have to look at what our goal is in the engineering forums. Plain and simple, we do not have the professional chops to have the depth of knowledge like Eng-Tips. I wish we did. They have a lot of really good technical people there that specialize in very many different areas. If we could combine that with PF's atmosphere and academic creds, what a site we would have! That's not going to happen unless the entirety of PF changed and that is not going to happen.
I agree with Q_Goest in that this is an educational forum, not a collaborative one. Because of that we will always attract a certain kind of poster. I firmly believe that the environment we have here should not be judged against some clouded version of what engineering reality is, especially by people with very limited or no experience in the area. If we stick to the academic ideal then there is no problem since all of us have plenty of experience there.
I also agree that emphasis needs to be put on keeping the good people. I can see how the PF grind can cause people to take a break or even walk away, especially if you are a professional with things like a real job and a family. I think the only way to really do that is to maintain an atmosphere that people enjoy.
arildno
Oct27-09, 01:40 PM
Lots of the early students here at PF, Moonbear, are busy right now with early careers both professionally and familially.
They are the first-generation of helped students, and thus their inability (rather than unwillingness) to participate at PF will be more noticeable than, say for the generation 10 years from now.
Thus, if it IS a dearth of such members at the moment (who might well think of re-paying their tribute), this will have the second-order effect upon casual expert visitors, who cannot find a lot of current expert-level threads going on.
And thus, these casual visitors wil turn away as well (in contrast to the first few years of PF.).
Thus, even if you and Cyrus are right about the current lack of interesting material, I don't think it has much to do with the new policy, but more about being in a temporary low-activity zone, that will pass once previous students start contribute at expert level.
I think Fred Garvin is right about the profile of PF.
What we should not forget is that there are large numbers of eminent engineers/scientists who would get irritated by the presence of what they consider "student trash posts", and therefore will never put up with anything other than forums like Eng-Tips.
If PF wants to remain an educational forum, a lot of people simply won't put up with that, because they are primarily interested in a colloborative, strictly professional forum.
I think we need to back off a little bit here before we make the SAME type of mistakes as crackpots do, i.e. confusing correlation as causation. You, and most people here, have no way of knowing if these people left because of PF, or if their lives have changed, and PF is just not a big part anymore! People's lives DO change!
Er....huh? I never said they left for a given reason. I simply said they left. But, putting that aside, yes. Peoples lives and priorities do change - that's fine, and understandable. What I'm saying is that when those people left, no one came and filled the void. Perhaps that makes what I'm talking about a little more clear now.
[/quote]So before we start attributing something without any basis, think a little bit of what you are saying![/quote]
Never really argued that, so does not apply here.
And I have no idea where cyrus got the impression that he got. I'd like to see some statistics before I'd buy into it, rather than just simply based on some vague impression. If I come in and claim the opposite, how are we to know who's right? Anecdotal evidence? Don't get me started on that.
z.
I gave you exactly where I got that "impression", from being around PF and seeing people leave not not having new people replace them - or the numbers increase. I did pose a question for you, name one new person that came into aerospace/mechanical that is knowledgeable in that area? I remember back in 03 I'd never post in engineering simply because there was never anything of value there. That's why my posts were mainly physics oriented. Nothing has changed in engineering for 6 years. I've only seen a decline in experts.
humanino
Oct28-09, 10:57 PM
When I joined PF, I spent several months only posting equations and discussing speculative interpretation of them. Then I discovered GD, Marlon joined, and it was all over.
TurtleMeister
Oct29-09, 01:41 AM
Just a comment regarding Cyrus's idea regarding the education level. I would prefer to have it indicate what level of response you want, not your actual level of education. Education does not always indicate a persons level of expertise. Also, I sometimes ask questions in forums where my knowledge is lacking. In those cases I may prefer responses that are less technical.
Pengwuino
Oct29-09, 01:50 AM
Just a comment regarding Cyrus's idea regarding the education level. I would prefer to have it indicate what level of response you want, not your actual level of education. Education does not always indicate a persons level of expertise. Also, I sometimes ask questions in forums where my knowledge is lacking. In those cases I may prefer responses that are less technical.
Ah, I can immediately see how that one will turn out
"What level of response do you need for this question?"
99%: "PHD or equivalent"
1%: Something realistic.
and 98% of those questions will be answerable by someone who's completed 2 years of college.
TurtleMeister
Oct29-09, 02:11 AM
Ah, I can immediately see how that one will turn out
"What level of response do you need for this question?"
99%: "PHD or equivalent"
1%: Something realistic.
Well, you may be right. But only for those who have a profile that indicates their education level and profession. It's different for me. I'm here anonymously and I do not care if I look stupid. I'm only interested in learning. So I prefer an answer that I can understand and will actually help me.
By the way, my fiance loves your avatar. :)
Cyclovenom
Oct29-09, 03:20 AM
By the way, my fiance loves your avatar. :)
Thank you.
Thank you.
And not "Thank her"? :wink:
Where is Morbius? Clausius? Krab? Enigma? Mathwonk? Matt Grime? Shmoe? Galileo?... and the list goes on...
I'm just as saddened as anyone else by the loss of high-profile members such as these, but new experts join the site every day. If anything, we look too fondly on our past, and spend too little time recognizing and showing appreciation for our newest talent.
We don't nominate new HH and SA folks very often, after all.
I've seen many experts join and post "thread-ending" posts -- posts so well-formed and conclusive that no one ever replies again. Presumably, the original poster got his/her answer, but very few people ever post follow-ups to say thanks. These new experts might end up feeling unappreciated, without realizing that "thread death" is a actually a perverse compliment.
Perhaps we need to spend more time actively looking for "hidden talent" in new posters, and sending PMs and public messages thanking them for their contribution and support. Maybe a few mentors (or a group of well-intentioned members... headed by Cyrus?) could form a sort of "professional welcome wagon?"
I also think that we should implement a rating system, and encourage everyone to rate threads they feel are of high quality. These threads will then rise to the top in listings and search results, naturally improving the apparent quality of the site. Google captured the search market by reliably ranking pages by quality and relevance, and delivering the best results first.
And, yes, it's not without irony that Cyrus, one of most problematic and unprofessional members we've ever had, is now telling us how the site does not meet his standards for professionalism...
- Warren
I'm just as saddened as anyone else by the loss of high-profile members such as these, but new experts join the site every day. If anything, we look too fondly on our past, and spend too little time recognizing and showing appreciation for our newest talent.
Again, as I've said: I don't see new qualified people posting in AE/ME forums.
I also think that we should implement a rating system, and encourage everyone to rate threads they feel are of high quality. These threads will then rise to the top in listings and search results, naturally improving the apparent quality of the site. Google captured the search market by reliably ranking pages by quality and relevance, and delivering the best results first.
There is also the problem of repetative topics. Some things get asked over and over again, becuase people don't use the search function to find similar threads.
And, yes, it's not without irony that Cyrus, one of most problematic and unprofessional members we've ever had, is now telling us how the site does not meet his standards for professionalism...
- Warren
I said we are loosing some of our tallent pool, particularly in Engineering. Anyways, I'm your favorite member on PF, admit it. You can try discrediting what I said based on my naughty behavior, but that isnt going bring in new people (But it does make for good tv). :wink:
Moonbear
Oct30-09, 09:38 AM
I've seen many experts join and post "thread-ending" posts -- posts so well-formed and conclusive that no one ever replies again. Presumably, the original poster got his/her answer, but very few people ever post follow-ups to say thanks. These new experts might end up feeling unappreciated, without realizing that "thread death" is a actually a perverse compliment.
This is all part of the same problem. Yes, in the past, sometimes someone did post a thread-ending post. But, more often, a well-formed post didn't end the thread, but would lead to more questions and more discussion once the initial question was answered. I think this is the lack of intellectual curiousity Cyrus is talking about.
We used to get questions, even from students, that didn't have simple answers. They were people seeking more information than you could get out of a textbook or in their courses. The questions would require delving into the literature and piecing together information from multiple sources and sometimes coming to the conclusion that there really wasn't an answer to the question, but lots of indirect evidence that really opened up discussion.
Now, too often, the questions getting asked are so basic that all anyone needs to do is point someone toward a textbook (because students don't read books anymore).
Though, I'm trying to figure out if this is a problem with the direction of PF, or with the current generation of students in general. Just the other day, I actually had to show one of my students (halfway through the semester in sophomore year) that the textbook has an index and how to use it. And, I am wondering if we're NOT helping them to keep providing answers to simple questions rather than just telling them "go look it up in your book" so they learn these skills of using reference materials to find their own answers rather than having everything spoon fed to them. This is different from the way we help them work through homework problems, where we do make them do their own work, but more the simple questions that get posted in the regular forums that are still probably for their classes but not problem sets.
Monique
Oct30-09, 11:25 AM
And, I am wondering if we're NOT helping them to keep providing answers to simple questions rather than just telling them "go look it up in your book" so they learn these skills of using reference materials to find their own answers rather than having everything spoon fed to them. This is different from the way we help them work through homework problems, where we do make them do their own work, but more the simple questions that get posted in the regular forums that are still probably for their classes but not problem sets. But how do you know whether someone who has never had a training in the subject, and thus has no relevant textbooks, is asking the question or someone who is currently taking a class?
Homework questions can be identified based on the phrasing of a question, but the origin of other questions is often obscure.
redargon
Oct30-09, 11:51 AM
Moonbear,
The new generation sees the internet as you used to see the library. If you have a question about a specific problem, you could go to the library and search around for the answer by reading through tens of books or you could ask a colleague or a lecturer and he could direct you to the "right" book. Now it is a case of doing a search on the internet and reading through tens of web pages or asking a colleague or online expert (a pfer for example) to find the "right" resource. Nothing has actually changed, just the medium of information and communication. I am stuck in between both generations. I know how to use books and the interent and I use them both as efficiently as I can.
Saying that students don't read books anymore doesn't mean anything, they read internet resources or gather information in the most efficient ways available. You can't punish people for wanting to be spoon fed, it's natural to take the easiest route. IMO a text book is also a form of spoon feeding, where all the topics are layed out nicely with worked examples and questions for each chapter and answers in the back. It's a lot easier than finding all the resources and reading them all to glean the required information.
Also, sometimes the simple questions are the ones that generate the click that helps someone to understand something. I'm against people just posting their HW and expecting us to give detailed answers, but that's why there is the HW template and if it is not used properly, I don't feel bad ignoring the post or asking for more information or attempts of an answer before sharing my thoughts.
Ben Niehoff
Oct30-09, 01:17 PM
I've seen many experts join and post "thread-ending" posts -- posts so well-formed and conclusive that no one ever replies again. Presumably, the original poster got his/her answer, but very few people ever post follow-ups to say thanks. These new experts might end up feeling unappreciated, without realizing that "thread death" is a actually a perverse compliment.
I'm certainly no expert, but this happens to me all the time. It's kind of annoying...not that one can do anything about it, though.
As far as the general "depletion of quality" thing...this is something that happens to every forum on the Internet as it grows. I have seen tons of forums grow up from small, motivated memberships, to booming giants of intellect, and finally to unmanageably large swamps of mediocrity, as the popularity of the place begins to attract people who are only passing interested. PF has done a good job staving off that final transition for a while, but I get the feeling that its grip is slowly weakening.
I think part of the problem is that the leadership gets bored. I don't see any "PF Mentors" doing much besides locking threads, answering HW questions, and posting in GD (and this goes double for the owners, who are practically invisible!). Can't really blame them; they probably posted a lot of interesting stuff for a while and then got tired of doing the same thing all the time. Unfortunately, I think a key part of a forum remaining high-quality is to have an active leadership to keep it fresh. That is, they who are in charge must actively work to make the place what they want it to be; not just delete posts and ban unruly members.
I don't have a good solution, though...I know that every time I have authority at any forum (I've owned a few and moderated others), it starts to feel like a job, and it is hard to really maintain interest. Perhaps the PF Mentorships need to be recycled. Perhaps PF needs to appoint "writers" whose job it is only to post interesting stuff on a regular basis, and not moderate threads. I've tried similar things in the past, with not much success; you can't really expect anyone to do some task on a regular basis without paying them.
Everyone eventually has to ask themselves, "Why do I come to X forum?" And if the answer is "Because X forum needs me" rather than "Because I think it's really interesting", you can bet that person won't stay.
Lots of the early students here at PF, Moonbear, are busy right now with early careers both professionally and familially.
They are the first-generation of helped students, and thus their inability (rather than unwillingness) to participate at PF will be more noticeable than, say for the generation 10 years from now.
I was going to post this exact thing. I joined way back in the day as an undergrad and PF served my needs well for homework help as an undergrad, for some research help and stimulation as a grad student and now as a postdoc I try to make some helpful posts when I find a minute or two. It is much easier (and somewhat less taxing) given my amount of free time currently to make a quick post on something interesting in GD than to spend some real effort in the homework section. I actually would love some free time to help out with HW, but no time.
It is sad to see old members move on but eventually things change (as Zz said) and things evolve. I don't think PF is any less technically proficient than it was so long ago. And having been around here for a while, there is a definite ebb and flow in the forums (well the ones I visit) with what is posted and the frequency of posts made there.
Everyone eventually has to ask themselves, "Why do I come to X forum?" And if the answer is "Because X forum needs me" rather than "Because I think it's really interesting", you can bet that person won't stay.
That's exactly how I feel lately. I get tired of correcting misinformation about aerodynamics all day long, and never having a discussion with someone that knows about the subject.
Galteeth
Oct30-09, 10:01 PM
I have an idea. Why not re-organize the forums into subsections such as "Beginner, Intermediate, Advanced"?
This way, academics would have a place for their discussions, and students could answer the more basic questions.
EDIT: Furthermore, this might be useful excersize for students, as explaining things to others can help them enhance their own understanding.
I have an idea. Why not re-organize the forums into subsections such as "Beginner, Intermediate, Advanced"?
It won't work, for HS students way too often questions they can't solve are "Advanced" - no matter how "Beginner" they really are.
arildno
Oct31-09, 06:29 AM
I have an idea. Why not re-organize the forums into subsections such as "Beginner, Intermediate, Advanced"?
This way, academics would have a place for their discussions, and students could answer the more basic questions.
EDIT: Furthermore, this might be useful excersize for students, as explaining things to others can help them enhance their own understanding.
As Borek said:
It is only whe you are proficient in the field that the distinctions beginner/intermediate/advanced make much sense.
If you struggle with the borrowing of tens in subtractions, for example, that feels very advanced for you.
ZapperZ
Oct31-09, 07:47 AM
I have an idea. Why not re-organize the forums into subsections such as "Beginner, Intermediate, Advanced"?
This way, academics would have a place for their discussions, and students could answer the more basic questions.
You are assuming that members here, especially the new ones, actually read and pay attention to such things, and know what those mean. Would you like to make a guess how often the Mentors have to move threads that are posted in the wrong forum?
Zz.
FredGarvin
Oct31-09, 10:15 AM
I think another thing that is also against us is that, it seems, that we have a large number of broad topic posts that would take a lot of time to answer. I find myself asking people to pare down the post to be more specific. That usually kills a thread right there because it's usually someone who has a homework due and doesn't want to put any thought into it. It's nature of the beast I guess, but it makes it difficult to have decent discussions when someone wants you to explain a year's worth of undergrad in a single question.
I would like to chime in with my two cents. I have been a member of the forums since '05 and have seen this "change" Cyrus is referring to. I found this forum though a google search because I was trying to prepare for my first uniphys course. I did some searching and found a very vibrant and diverse community of people who loved to actually understand things. A lot of these discussions I found had the same flavor as those you would have with the other handful of trully interested students in a class with the instructor after class. That, "I want to understand more", spark only a few people in a given class/group have when greeted with new subject matter. I think just as a lot of people here, my life has changed big time in the last 4 years and I don't have the same time to devote to my non-work/family interests like I use to. I don't think that is disimilar to many here especially in this economic enviroment where "more for less" becomes the de facto standard in almost everything. I have never been a big poster but I do try to make this a daily stop to check in on the haps. My only real "complaint" about PF has been the high frequency of political banter of late. I'm follow politics quite heavily but I really try to limit the discussion of them because inevitably most turn into a us vs. them argument and rarely anyone walks away feeling any differently about the subject than they did before. In the end I believe PF is a victim of its own success. It's no longer that "niche" community of "nerds" it once was.
P.S.
I too can't stand the IM speak. I had to tell one of my subordinates just the other day to quit using it in their work emails. Take the extra step and TYPE THE WHOLE WORD!
U IS NOT EQUAL TO YOU
How about a test that members can take to indicate their level. The tests can also be topical, like the subject GREs. Maybe one test can be used with questions at many levels. Then, the correctness of each answer can be evaluated to determine at what level the member is.
Then, members can be given, separately, read and write access to certain forums based on their level.
"At the end of the day", the test results could always be overriden by a mentor, of course, in either direction.
Galteeth
Nov4-09, 11:44 PM
This is all part of the same problem. Yes, in the past, sometimes someone did post a thread-ending post. But, more often, a well-formed post didn't end the thread, but would lead to more questions and more discussion once the initial question was answered. I think this is the lack of intellectual curiousity Cyrus is talking about.
We used to get questions, even from students, that didn't have simple answers. They were people seeking more information than you could get out of a textbook or in their courses. The questions would require delving into the literature and piecing together information from multiple sources and sometimes coming to the conclusion that there really wasn't an answer to the question, but lots of indirect evidence that really opened up discussion.
Now, too often, the questions getting asked are so basic that all anyone needs to do is point someone toward a textbook (because students don't read books anymore).
Though, I'm trying to figure out if this is a problem with the direction of PF, or with the current generation of students in general. Just the other day, I actually had to show one of my students (halfway through the semester in sophomore year) that the textbook has an index and how to use it. And, I am wondering if we're NOT helping them to keep providing answers to simple questions rather than just telling them "go look it up in your book" so they learn these skills of using reference materials to find their own answers rather than having everything spoon fed to them. This is different from the way we help them work through homework problems, where we do make them do their own work, but more the simple questions that get posted in the regular forums that are still probably for their classes but not problem sets.
It might be a problem with students in general. I can only speak from my experience, but "teaching to the test" has taken on a whole new level in recent years. When I was i was in high school (98-02) there was already systematic cheating that was overlooked by the teachers. Since the metric for judging teachers is performance of students on tests, there's no incentive for them to discourage this. The problem has seemingly only gotten worse. My ex-girlfriend of a few years ago was a high honors AP Bio student, and couldn't tell me what a mitochondrion was or how DNA worked (or what state Chicago was in for that matter). This is only an anecdotal report from one school, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was a more general phenomenon.
Ben Niehoff
Nov5-09, 09:58 PM
How about a test that members can take to indicate their level. The tests can also be topical, like the subject GREs. Maybe one test can be used with questions at many levels. Then, the correctness of each answer can be evaluated to determine at what level the member is.
Then, members can be given, separately, read and write access to certain forums based on their level.
"At the end of the day", the test results could always be overriden by a mentor, of course, in either direction.
Having a test one must take to join is the hallmark of a website that takes itself way too seriously.
Like I wrote earlier, we don't post on Physics Forums because Physics Forums is some noble cause or great idea in the abstract; we post on Physics Forums because it's interesting and fun. If you remove the "fun" and the "interesting", this all evaporates.
I think it's unrealistic to expect any sort of category system to work perfectly. As long as most people follow it most of the time, it's fine.
Having a test one must take to join is the hallmark of a website that takes itself way too seriously.
Like I wrote earlier, we don't post on Physics Forums because Physics Forums is some noble cause or great idea in the abstract; we post on Physics Forums because it's interesting and fun. If you remove the "fun" and the "interesting", this all evaporates.
I think it's unrealistic to expect any sort of category system to work perfectly. As long as most people follow it most of the time, it's fine.
All that's needed is for members to be aware of the problems and be active in telling people who do make lousy posts to stop. The only solution to the problem is by self correcting (i.e all of us have to take part in it). If the mentors simply lock (or delete) the threads, that won't stop people from continuing to make lousy threads. Its only if other members say "Type properly and don't waste our time with basic questions Google can answer" that visitors will get the impression that such things are not 'culturally' tolerated here by members if they start posting. They can go to Yahoo! questions if they want to participate in that kind of discussion.
Ben,
Access tests are becoming increasingly common on the internet. Usually they take the form of, "Are you really a human?" Sometimes, they require one to regurgitate some random points of the organization's policy that the participant is obliged to read before joining. I'm just suggesting the same basic idea, but with a much more physics flavor. It has nothing to do with taking these forums seriously or casually. It is merely a response to the increasing bedlam of the internet in which these forums opperate.
Not everyone comes here because they think that it's interesting and fun. For instance, I spend most of my time here in the homework forums, and I would be surprised if even 10% of the posters there were enjoying themselves. They just want to survive. They come here for solid, accurate help. I'm not saying that there is a huge problem with bad help in the homework forums. What I'm saying is that not eveyone shares your motivation for being here. And, furthermore, I get frustrated more than I have fun in the other forums (which is why I mostly stay in the homework forums) because I find that a lot of posters there stubbornly cling to there misconceptions. I do not think that it is fun to argue with someone over and over about some basic point that they obviously are too lazy to consider. I think a lot of people just come here to vent.
Out of curiosity, where on these forums do you have fun?
Cyrus,
It is fine to recognize what is needed. The question is, are we gonna get it? No, we are not, not if we expect it to just fix itself. I continue to see even seasoned members (with 1000 posts or more) breaking policy by either letting the newbies slide, or worse, placating them. Not many non-mentors are willing to say, "Hey, stop breaking the rules." It is not pleasant (for me, at least), and certainly not personally rewarding, to constantly admonish people. I see it as a slippery slope. If members see that, in spite of their admonishments, the problem continues to get worse (I see it this way), then why bother. It is not self-correcting.
I suggest that, instead of addressing the problem after it happens, we should address the problem preemptively.
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