Christianity: Fact or Legend?

[Zantra]

I heard an alternative explanation recently, so I'd like to pose it here. This came from a college professor, just so you know. So I'm not using it as a platform for atheism. However I'm wondering if anyone else has heard of this theory, and I felt this was the best place for this post. The story goes something like this.

Jesus did exist as a man, and was a philosopher. He spent time with Socrates and Plato. He was not preaching religion perse. He was however preaching alternative philosophies that the romans did not like. So in time he was eventually nailed to the cross, as so many others were in that time. That was a common method of punishment then.
However there was another man who watched all this unfolding, and it was he who deemed Jesus the messiah, and starting writing a book on it. This of course became known as the bible. All of these things thusfar were based in fact. Then this man who was writing the book starting preaching his beliefs, and it gained popularity. And that was the birth of Christianity.

I don't have anymore details than that. I heard this through a 3rd party, so I'm trying to get more details. But I'm curious to know if anyone else has heard this. Again, I'm only presenting an alternative explanation here, but as they say, Every myth has some root basis in fact, so you never know..

[MasterBlaster]

Exactly. It's either:

1. Jesus said what he is said to have said, and was false.

2. Jesus did not say what he said, and thus it is false.

Either way it's false - and that's what's important!

[ahrkron]

It is an interesting idea. It reminds me of something I read sometime ago: that in the renaissance, there was a school of thought (I think it was the "scholastics", but I'm not sure) saying that the bible was the way used by old philosophers to teach values and philosophy to the poor.

According to the book ("History of philosophy", I'm sorry I don't remember anything more specific), even some clerics embraced such idea, and regarded the bible as a well developed teaching tool... something like a book of fables, that allowed them to teach about philosophy and virtues to the less priviledged, uneducated people.

[MasterBlaster]

Originally posted by ahrkron
It is an interesting idea. It reminds me of something I read sometime ago: that in the renaissance, there was a school of thought (I think it was the "scholastics", but I'm not sure) saying that the bible was the way used by old philosophers to teach values and philosophy to the poor.

According to the book ("History of philosophy", I'm sorry I don't remember anything more specific), even some clerics embraced such idea, and regarded the bible as a well developed teaching tool... something like a book of fables, that allowed them to teach about philosophy and virtues to the less priviledged, uneducated people.


Definetely. The bible, like most religious texts have one part of their origins in the idea of a philosopher or group of philosophers needed to create rules for a society.

Let's face it - once humans began to create societies, rules were needed, it's a fundamental. And punishments were in order.

These fables were used to teach rules, and the grown-ups in the stories (jesus etc...) were usually the philosophers dealing with rules towards adults rather than children.

Thousands of years later religion is a failed structure carried on by delusional humans while the rest of us realize the need for rules comes from a lawfull stance and not a mythological one.

Of course it's the OTHER parts of the ingredients of religion that hold it up much more than this one.

[Iacchus32]

Originally posted by Zantra
However there was another man who watched all this unfolding, and it was he who deemed Jesus the messiah, and starting writing a book on it. This of course became known as the bible. All of these things thusfar were based in fact. Then this man who was writing the book starting preaching his beliefs, and it gained popularity. And that was the birth of Christianity.

I don't have anymore details than that. I heard this through a 3rd party, so I'm trying to get more details. But I'm curious to know if anyone else has heard this. Again, I'm only presenting an alternative explanation here, but as they say, Every myth has some root basis in fact, so you never know.. No, I think there are too many divergent views in the New Testament for it all to have come from one man, not unless he was another William Shakespeare or something! [;)]

There are other reasons to believe the Bible is valid though, than just its historical authenticy. For example in your mentioning its possible philosophical ties, it's either good philosophy or it isn't, and so helps belie the validity of its source.

[MasterBlaster]

Originally posted by Iacchus32
No, I think there are too many divergent views in the New Testament for it all to have come from one man, not unless he was another William Shakespeare or something! [;)]

There are other reasons to believe the Bible is valid though, than just its historical authenticy. For example your mentioning its possible philosophical ties, it's either good philosophy or it isn't, and so helps belie the validity of its source.

No you are mistaken. There is not a single reason to support the claim that anything in the bible is valid.

[Hurkyl]

Thousands of years later religion is a failed structure carried on by delusional humans while the rest of us realize the need for rules comes from a lawfull stance and not a mythological one.

The lawful stance doesn't work, at least the way it's practiced in western societies. When "right and wrong" are derived merely from the law, its effectiveness is determined entirely by fear of the law. Thus, if the law can't catch all lawbreakers reliably and the penalties are a slap on the wrist, then the law does not effectively impose structure on society.

[Iacchus32]

Originally posted by ahrkron
It is an interesting idea. It reminds me of something I read sometime ago: that in the renaissance, there was a school of thought (I think it was the "scholastics", but I'm not sure) saying that the bible was the way used by old philosophers to teach values and philosophy to the poor.

According to the book ("History of philosophy", I'm sorry I don't remember anything more specific), even some clerics embraced such idea, and regarded the bible as a well developed teaching tool... something like a book of fables, that allowed them to teach about philosophy and virtues to the less priviledged, uneducated people. And yet in all actuality, this is pretty much the purpose it was created for isn't it?

[MasterBlaster]

Originally posted by Hurkyl
The lawful stance doesn't work, at least the way it's practiced in western societies. When "right and wrong" are derived merely from the law, its effectiveness is determined entirely by fear of the law. Thus, if the law can't catch all lawbreakers reliably and the penalties are a slap on the wrist, then the law does not effectively impose structure on society.


You are mistaken. Currently the U.S. governemnt does not catch all criminals. However the fear is absolutely enough to stop almost anyone from committing most crimes. So your concept is completely invalid in every way. The lawful stance works very well. Nothing will work perfect.

[Iacchus32]

Originally posted by MasterBlaster
No you are mistaken. There is not a single reason to support the claim that anything in the bible is valid. Well I guess there might be the need to establish the fact that we have "a soul" then? [;)]

For indeed this is the "one criteria" by which the Bible is truly based.

[MasterBlaster]

Originally posted by Iacchus32
Well I guess there might be the need to establish the fact that we have "a soul" then? [;)]

For indeed this is the "one criteria" by which the Bible is truly based.

The "fact" that "we" "have" a "soul"?

I don't know if someone could say a more absurd statement. I sincerely hope for your mental health that you're either on hypnotic medication or are joking.

[Iacchus32]

Originally posted by MasterBlaster
The "fact" that "we" "have" a "soul"?

I don't know if someone could say a more absurd statement. I sincerely hope for your mental health that you're either on hypnotic medication or are joking. Well it is a philosophical question, and it's a question that each one of us needs to answer for ourselves. Whereas if you read the Bible, with an open mind and "objectively," you may begin to understand that indeed this is what it's trying to teach us.

While it's fairly obvious to me that you haven't pursued it in this sense. [;)]

[Iacchus32]

Originally posted by MasterBlaster
You are mistaken. Currently the U.S. governemnt does not catch all criminals. However the fear is absolutely enough to stop almost anyone from committing most crimes. So your concept is completely invalid in every way. The lawful stance works very well. Nothing will work perfect. And yet if people were to "maintain" their sense of morals about themselves, then perhaps there wouldn't be a need for "the law."

[MasterBlaster]

Originally posted by Iacchus32
Well it is philosophical question, and it's a question that each one of us needs to answer for ourselves. Whereas if you read the Bilble, with an open mind and "objectively," you may begin to understand that indeed this what it's trying to teach us.

While it's fairly obvious to me that you haven't pursued it in this sense. [;)]


Answer for ourselves??? Now I'm seriously concerned.

I suppose you think the question of weather or not the Earth is round is something we need to answer for ourselves?


Absurdity at it's most gross!

[Iacchus32]

Originally posted by MasterBlaster
Answer for ourselves??? Now I'm seriously concerned.Well how do "you" know something unless you can see it for yourself?


I suppose you think the question of weather or not the Earth is round is something we need to answer for ourselves?And yet somebody had to answer that question for themselves, before they could "enlighten" everyone else.


Absurdity at it's most gross! So who do we have an axe to grind with today?

[MasterBlaster]

Iacchus32 - How can someone live when they can't understand fact from opinion? Do you still hold the claim that the Earth is flat?

Claims that are fact are fact for everyone - I can't stand this "for yourself" issue that I hear so much from religious "people" these days.

[Hurkyl]

You are mistaken. Currently the U.S. governemnt does not catch all criminals. However the fear is absolutely enough to stop almost anyone from committing most crimes. So your concept is completely invalid in every way. The lawful stance works very well. Nothing will work perfect.

Only the major ones with a decent chance of getting caught and with a decent penalty. ATM I'm speaking mainly about things like traffic violations of all kinds, lesser shoplifting, piracy... and, of course, there aren't even laws against a lot of things that many consider bad or detrimental to society... I'm not even talking about the contraversial stuff like abortion and homosexuality, I'm talking about things like blatantly offensive behavior, cheating at games, et cetera.

[MasterBlaster]

Originally posted by Hurkyl
Only the major ones with a decent chance of getting caught and with a decent penalty. ATM I'm speaking mainly about things like traffic violations of all kinds, lesser shoplifting, piracy... and, of course, there aren't even laws against a lot of things that many consider bad or detrimental to society... I'm not even talking about the contraversial stuff like abortion and homosexuality, I'm talking about things like blatantly offensive behavior, cheating at games, et cetera.

It would work just fine. I have absolutely no doubt. It has worked fine in plenty of atheist countries for decades.

[Iacchus32]

Originally posted by MasterBlaster
Iacchus32 - How can someone live when they can't understand fact from opinion? Do you still hold the claim that the Earth is flat?And yet what is an opinion, if not an opinion about "the fact."

So is this your opinion, or the fact? [;)]


Claims that are fact are fact for everyone - I can't stand this "for yourself" issue that I hear so much from religious "people" these days. If it's not something that can be ascertained on a "personal level," how will we ever ascertain it?

[Zero]

Originally posted by Iacchus32
Well it is a philosophical question, and it's a question that each one of us needs to answer for ourselves. Whereas if you read the Bible, with an open mind and "objectively," you may begin to understand that indeed this is what it's trying to teach us.

While it's fairly obvious to me that you haven't pursued it in this sense. [;)]

You don't want people to read teh Bible with an open mind. If they do, they will find a storybook full of hate, fear, and the legends of a superstitious people. That is what an open mind will reveal.

[Iacchus32]

Originally posted by Zero
You don't want people to read teh Bible with an open mind. If they do, they will find a storybook full of hate, fear, and the legends of a superstitious people. That is what an open mind will reveal. Yes, the very things which makes us human. Indeed this is part of the message, but the other is the part of "redemption." This is why we have the need for morals, and compassion, which it also preaches.

[Zero]

Originally posted by Iacchus32
Yes, the very things which makes us human. Indeed this is part of the message, but the other is the part of "redemption." This is why we have the need for morals -- and compassion -- which it also preaches.

You mean when it isn't preaching hatred for self, hatred for others, and foolish mystical notions? I don't claim that fables cannot be powerful, or even useful...I simply claim that we should not mistake fables for reality. 'The tortoise and the hare' carries an important message too, but that doesn't mean we should believe in talking animals.

[MasterBlaster]

Originally posted by Iacchus32
And yet what is an opinion, if not an opinion about "the fact."
So is this your opinion, or the fact? [;)]
If it's not something that can be ascertained on a "personal level," how will we ever ascertain it?


Thanks for the information leading me to the claim that you are certainly a disillusioned person.

Let me explain this once and once only.

Claims can be either opinions or facts. NOT BOTH.

"what is an opinion of not an opinion about the fact"

No sir - you are UNBELIEVABLY MISTAKEN.

Fact - A statement that is EITHER TRUE OR FALSE

Opinion - A statement that carries no true or false value.

Example of a fact - the Earth is round. It's not up for effing opinion - it's either flat or it isn't

Example of an opinion - "The Scream" is a beautiful painting. It is NOT either true or false.

You need to hammer this into your brain.

Your comments are morosely delusional. I need a bucket.

[Iacchus32]

Originally posted by Zero
You mean when it isn't preaching hatred for self, hatred for others, and foolish mystical notions?Really it all depends on how you want to look at it, and what you wish to "justify" in its place.


I don't claim that fables cannot be powerful, or even useful...I simply claim that we should not mistake fables for reality. 'The tortoise and the hare' carries an important message too, but that doesn't mean we should believe in talking animals. You obviously don't believe you have a soul, otherwise you might have a different take on the whole thing. It's like I said, this is probably the one criteria that decides whether or not the Bible valid. And whether or not you do have a soul, is something you'll have to determine for yourself.

[MasterBlaster]

Originally posted by Iacchus32
Really it all depends on how you want to look at it, and what you wish to "justify" in its place.


You obviously don't believe you have a soul, otherwise you might have a different take on the whole thing. It's like I said, this is probably the one criteria that decides whether or not the Bible valid. And whether or not you do have a soul, is something you'll have to determine for yourself.


I will not allow this ill to spread anylonger.

It does not "matter at how you look at it". The bible teaches one thing and one thing only. HATE.

No matter how one looks at it Iacchus32. And it's horrible that you can't see it.

A statement saying that "blacks are n***ers" is a hatefull statement that CANNOT be interpretated to mean anything else.

And that is that. HATE = BIBLE

[Zero]

Originally posted by Iacchus32 Really it all depends on how you want to look at it, and what you wish to "justify" in its place. Really, it depends on whether you look at it with an open mind or not. IF you read it with an open mind, you cannot avoid the hatred and cruelty and warped 'morals' of the Bible. I'm not trying to justify any postion except the one of looking at the bible with an open mind.


You obviously don't believe you have a soul, otherwise you might have a different take on the whole thing. It's like I said, this is probably the one criteria that decides whether or not the Bible valid. And whether or not you do have a soul, is something you'll have to determine for yourself. [/B] Obviously, you believe that having a spiritual nature can make lies real.

[MasterBlaster]

Zero - Although you're a bit more forgiving of verbal defecation, we agree on most of these absurd ideas Iacchus32 vomits out.

The idea that such a strange thing as a "soul" has any place in reality is a horrible horribly supstition.

It's those who believe such a claim that holds humanity back in the dark ages for the rest of us.

[Zero]

Originally posted by MasterBlaster
Zero - Although you're a bit more forgiving of verbal defecation, we agree on most of these absurd ideas Iacchus32 vomits out.

The idea that such a strange thing as a "soul" has any place in reality is a horrible horribly supstition.

It's those who believe such a claim that holds humanity back in the dark ages for the rest of us.

Don't lump me in with you, MasterCracker...why don't you go get yourself another screen name. That would be your...4th in the last 2 weeks?

[Iacchus32]

Originally posted by MasterBlaster
Thanks for the information leading me to the claim that you are certainly a disillusioned person.You're quite welcome! [;)]


Let me explain this once and once only.

Claims can be either opinions or facts. NOT BOTH.

"what is an opinion of not an opinion about the fact"

No sir - you are UNBELIEVABLY MISTAKEN.

Fact - A statement that is EITHER TRUE OR FALSE

Opinion - A statement that carries no true or false value.

Example of a fact - the Earth is round. It's not up for effing opinion - it's either flat or it isn'tAll of this may very well be true, in fact I agree with you for the most part -- but, in "whose opinion?"

And yet the earth was considered flat, before it was determined otherwise, so indeed fact "does" become opinion.


Example of an opinion - "The Scream" is a beautiful painting. It is NOT either true or false.That would be subjective, as is everything else the "human mind" observes.


You need to hammer this into your brain.Or maybe I'm just too lazy and would have others do it for me?


Your comments are morosely delusional. I need a bucket. Go ahead! And be sure to dispose of it properly! [;)]

[MasterBlaster]

Iacchus32 - You're on ignore. However I will not allow you to spread hate here or anywhere else.

[MasterBlaster]

Originally posted by Zero
Don't lump me in with you, MasterCracker...why don't you go get yourself another screen name. That would be your...4th in the last 2 weeks?

For a person who considers themself so worthless they call themself "zero" you sure think you are a clown.

But no, you're just a zero, as you said yourself!

As for making a racist hate remark I've reported your post. And don't try editing it I've already frozen it here.

[Iacchus32]

Originally posted by MasterBlaster
Zero - Although you're a bit more forgiving of verbal defecation, we agree on most of these absurd ideas Iacchus32 vomits out.

The idea that such a strange thing as a "soul" has any place in reality is a horrible horribly supstition.

It's those who believe such a claim that holds humanity back in the dark ages for the rest of us. In other words our whole reason for being here is to prove how "right" we are, and who gives a damn about anyone else's opinion. And you're the one who's here to remind us of that, right?

[MasterBlaster]

Originally posted by Iacchus32
In other words our whole reason for being here is to prove how "right" we are, and who gives a damn about anyone else's opinion. And you're the one who's here to remind us of that, right?

Still more senseless vomiting. Do you ever stop?

[Zero]

Originally posted by MasterBlaster
For a person who considers themself so worthless they call themself "zero" you sure think you are a clown.

But no, you're just a zero, as you said yourself!

As for making a racist hate remark I've reported your post. And don't try editing it I've already frozen it here.

LOL Cracker=crackpot, which you are, under any screen name. We are just biding our time until Greg gets back and removes you again.

[Iacchus32]

Originally posted by Zero
Really, it depends on whether you look at it with an open mind or not. IF you read it with an open mind, you cannot avoid the hatred and cruelty and warped 'morals' of the Bible. I'm not trying to justify any postion except the one of looking at the bible with an open mind.And yet I can look at people and observe this in general. I don't have to look to the Bible in order to find this out.


Obviously, you believe that having a spiritual nature can make lies real. Or, like you've already said, maybe I'm just delusional? [;)]

[Zero]

Originally posted by Iacchus32
And yet I can look at people and observe this in general. I don't have to look to the Bible in order to find this out.


Or, like you've already said, maybe I'm just delusional? [;)]

Then what use is the Bible, specifically?


Oh,and ummm....you aren't as bad as the latest cracker.

[TENYEARS]

The bible does not teach hate as much as science teaches wisdom. Relative to your life masterblaster you may have encountered individuals or viewed this from perspective. These are individuals and not the whole. When you place the power or the reason or whatever outside yourself, you are undoubtably lost and powerless. Only when you realize that the power and the truth lies within you will you see it outside yourself. Sometimes after you have gone down a path this may be a difficult thing to do because you must restructure your mind and the way you think. A difficult task. The harder you fight the further you fall. I suggest replacing you thought pattern with activity and other thoughts. Then an only then, when you are out of this rut can you take action toward real answers and yet the action itself towards this path is in itself the begining of it.

Don't Mcarthy the bible. It is only a book about the trials and tribulations of human beings. One can easily Mcarthy science.

[Iacchus32]

Originally posted by Zero
Then what use is the Bible, specifically?Like I said before, it's predicated upon the fact that we have a soul, otherwise it would be the same pile of garbage that some people like to refer to it as.


Oh,and ummm....you aren't as bad as the latest cracker. Will try and take that as a compliment. Thanks. [6)]

[Zantra]

Ok this post went waay of the topic I intended. Or at least got out of hand;) Anyhow, aside from one person dismissing my story of the beginning as a fake, and not giving an explanation, no one has commented. I'm not looking to "convert theists into athiests here, Im just looking for input on this statement, and wondering if anyone's heard this story before.

anyone have any useful input?

[Zero]

Originally posted by Zantra
Ok this post went waay of the topic I intended. Or at least got out of hand;) Anyhow, aside from one person dismissing my story of the beginning as a fake, and not giving an explanation, no one has commented. I'm not looking to "convert theists into athiests here, Im just looking for input on this statement, and wondering if anyone's heard this story before.

anyone have any useful input?


Well, most legends have a bit of truth in them. My understanding was that there were dozens of these 'messiahs' wandering around, stirring up trouble and getting crucified. All it takes in an enterprising young con artist to string together some comfortable lies, a little Roman domination to push the cult underground, and there you have it.

[TENYEARS]

If this professor is not a legend and really existed and the person you say you herd it from really herd it correctly from that other nonfictional person that really existed and they all understood each other and if any one of these people could even spell the word university then it must be without question the truth. Especially if 4 or 5 of these numnuts got together and agreed. If you were looking for a rise you got one.

Is it that you cannot see or is it that you have not opened your eyes.

[Zero]

Originally posted by TENYEARS


Is it that you cannot see or is it that you have not opened your eyes.

When some of us open our eyes, we see that teh emperor has no clothes, and we realize that those who see 'more' are actually blind.

[Zantra]

Originally posted by TENYEARS
If this professor is not a legend and really existed and the person you say you herd it from really herd it correctly from that other nonfictional person that really existed and they all understood each other and if any one of these people could even spell the word university then it must be without question the truth. Especially if 4 or 5 of these numnuts got together and agreed. If you were looking for a rise you got one.

Is it that you cannot see or is it that you have not opened your eyes.

I was under the impression that this was not an obscure theory, and that others had heard of it. Apparently not the case.

u·ni·ver·si·ty ( P ) Pronunciation Key (yn-vûrs-t)
n. pl. u·ni·ver·si·ties
An institution for higher learning with teaching and research facilities constituting a graduate school and professional schools that award master's degrees and doctorates and an undergraduate division that awards bachelor's degrees.
The buildings and grounds of such an institution.
The body of students and faculty of such an institution