View Full Version : chroot
pmb_phy
Jul31-04, 11:57 PM
re - "Really, if you guys are going to continue to have this much personal drama, please keep it to PMs and emails. We really don't need it on this forum."
That's one of the things that is extremly irritating about you warren. In the first place you know as fact that dw refuses all PMs (he can't stand people takikng to him for some reason, paranoia?). And it is quite literlly impossible to obtain the answer to my question by senting him PM since it was a request for opinion from others. Your problem is that you quite often read into things which don't exist. But you never seem to mind telling people that what they do is stupid as you have in a post to me, do you?
I asled the people here a very legitimate question. If you wanted to whine about it then you should have edited the parts out that you didn't like. dw is the one always looking for trouble, not I. But he lies so much I wanted to see if his claim was true.
Since you refused to delete all his posts which borders on proking flame wars from the board and you also refused to respond to my PM on that topic then I saw no reason not to ask that question.
You're a forum administrator and you abuse that position quite often. Please act more mature if you want to hold such a responsible position.
Your next question will obviously be - "Why didn't you PM me these questions?" - The answer is - You don't respond to PMs on questions like this.
Actually, my next question was going to be "why didn't you post this to the right forum?"
Since you'd like to make this an open-air discussion, let me fill you in on how us mentors feel. There seems to me to be a general consesus among all of the mentors that both you and DW are enormous pains in the ***. I believe you have both had accounts banned for breaking site rules. Although you continually come whining to the mentors to deal with DW, you dish out as much as you take. You are as much of a problem to us as he is. That's the reason why I don't always do what you want me to do -- I don't really regard you as a very positive member of this forum.
- Warren
Math Is Hard
Aug1-04, 01:01 AM
If this is a thread about chroot, I should get to say what I think, too.
I think Warren does a great job. He's always very tolerant and patient, he's always helpful, and PF is lucky to have him.
Just my 2 cents.
:smile:
[quote
Since you'd like to make this an open-air discussion, ..
[/quote]
Nope. You chose to make this an open-air discussion, not I. You refuse to discuss anything in PM. You're so arrogant that you refuse to respond to a question as if it was beneath you. You whine to others when they don't take something to PM and then when someone does it with you then you refuse to respond or even acknowledge that you read the PM. You're a hypocrit in that respect.
You accepted the responsibility of being a forum administrator. In doing so you have accepted all of the responsibilities that go along with it. So while you've chosen to use the more visibly aspects of your duties and those which give you power over others and is highly visible, e.g. closing threads, deleting posts, etc., you have also been extremley lax in your other, more invisible, responsibilities such as reading and responding to PMs from forum participants. From your comments below you've shown me that you think that you consider yourself too good for that. To me you seem like a school boy with his first taste of power and you now think you're superior to others.
You have the ability in your possession to handle such matters in a very benign manner, i.e. by taking discussions like this to PM. Yet you have chosen to chastize people in open forum. Why? Do you think people will respect you more of you chastize them in open forum? Why are you incapable of doing what you are always telling others to do? I see that as arrogance.
I wanted to ask you a question in PM. That question was related to curtail those posts designed by dw to be antagonizing. People here have alreay expressed a dislike for that and you ignored it. Do you think every likes seeing dw act like a wiseass here and watch his antagonizing posts be ignored/accepted?
So I PM'd you and someone else a request. But you ignore all PMs that I've e-mailed you. So what is it that you think my choices are? Watch people be irritated by dw or lied to and I can't fix his lies since I block them. At the moment I don't know what he's writing and therefore I don't know what the possible outcomes of those lies can be so I've asked you to do your job. You can choose to ignore my request But now I see that you're not too bright and you think it was a demand.
Sorry but you're not bright enough to discuss this with. Your comments showed me that you constantly read into things which aren't there and you make claims as to what other moderators say. Let them speak for themselves.
And feel free to delete my account whenever you feel fit. You'd be doing me a favor since I thought this was a forum for adults and not imature kids like you.
If this is a thread about chroot, I should get to say what I think, too.
I think Warren does a great job. He's always very tolerant and patient, he's always helpful, and PF is lucky to have him.
Just my 2 cents.
:smile:
Then you can have him. Please convince him to delete me account so when I go to post here I'll be reminded of what chroot is like and how he lets dw post irritating lies.
You'll be doing me a favor and I'd thank you for it.
Pete
Apparently intelligent life elsewhere in the universe is more improbable than I thought. None here is evident. Chroot is guilty of digesting more bull than I could ever swallow.
Apparently intelligent life elsewhere in the universe is more improbable than I thought. None here is evident. Chroot is guilty of digesting more bull than I could ever swallow.
Let me just say that I haven't been myself for the last couple of months. I've tried to be more calm in my postings except that my nerves are frazzled big time. I wanted to discuss this off line with chroot in PM but he refused to respond. He has the unfortunate problem of reading ever request I make as a demand for action and all explanations/descriptions in physics I give as me demanding people do what I say. Totally wrong of course and there is not one post on the internet which even hints at that. And I can't help what erroneous conclusions people jump to. But chroot must have strong legs since he seems be a person who jumps to a lot of incorrect conclusions.
chroot - you need to learn how to ask a question to people when you think they are demanding something of you.
After I stumbled across one of dw's attempts to start a flame war I sent this message to chroot
Can you give dw a warning or delete something for me?
In posts like
http://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=272403
He has always tried to start a flame war by his condescening comments like that, i.e. his little childish comment, i.e.
"Your site is not a reference. It would be better to see something correct like..
He loves that childish "Your site is not a reference.." crap.
If not then please ask him to provide proof that his site is a reference and mine is not.
Thanks
Pete
chroot interprets that as a demand. Its too bad too since that is literally a polite request.
However - Last night I should have let this drop but I didn't. I don't like to make excuses but since I posted such a long diatriabe last night I think the forum (except for chroot since he's too imature to understand the difference between a request and a demand) deserves an explaination of my actions : I'm sure all of you have been in pain at one time of your life right. And when that is happening you're not the most polite person in the world. I do everything I can to not let that effect the way I treat people. However I was less than perfect last night due to out of control pain. I had to be rushed to the hospital last night due to freakish levels of pain. I'm better now and I ask the board's forgiveness for telling chroot like it is. So let's put this all behind us and forget my leaving etc. dw is a permanent member of my ignore list and will try to avoid reading his posts when people quote him
Thanks
Pete
ps - chroot - let other moderators speak for themselves. Don't speak for them. If they have something to say to me than say it directly to my face in PM.
LastOneStanding
Aug1-04, 08:51 PM
Then I hope you're feeling better, Pete. Really.
Then I hope you're feeling better, Pete. Really.
Thank you. I can't wait until this phase of my life is over. Even if I do have to have surgery (blech). I'll try not to post from now on if/when I'm in pain.
Pete
Math Is Hard
Aug1-04, 10:17 PM
God, Pete, that's awful! I am sorry to hear you're not feeling well. I hope you're feeling better. And I hope you will decide to stick around this board even if there are some annoying folks on it occasionally who make nasty caustic comments or try to start a "flame war". I figure if someone's going to make a malicious or incendiary comment in response to your post, then what the hell, let those comments stay up so everyone can see what kind of person they are.
I think the good outweighs the bad here. There are so many wonderful things about this board, and so much you can gain from it, and so much you can contribute to it. Who cares what the occasional random knucklehead says. It doesn't make you look bad. It just makes that person look childish.
-Jessica :smile:
I figure if someone's going to make a malicious or incendiary comment in response to your post, then what the hell, let those comments stay up so everyone can see what kind of person they are.
Hmmmm .... Excellant point! :smile:
Pete
Dagenais
Aug3-04, 06:27 PM
You're a forum administrator and you abuse that position quite often. Please act more mature if you want to hold such a responsible position.
I have no clue who you are because I don't ever remember talking to you, however...
I agree, Chroot is extremely helpful however, he is easily offended when wrong and often retaliates with personal attacks and does use his administration powers to his advantage.
more invisible, responsibilities such as reading and responding to PMs from forum participants.
I asked him a question about the Zi-burban is said he worked on. He said there were safety problems, I PMed him and asked what was wrong with it but he ignored it. I wasn't complaining about a member, I wasn't complaining or insulting him, I simply asked a question. If he didn't want to talk about the Zi-burban, he should have never brought it up in a thread.
And also, what's even more ridiculous was during a fairly heated debate with another member, Chroot joined in and started attacking me - is that what an admin is supposed to do?
Learn from the other moderators Chroot. I sure as hell hope you're not this cantankerous in real life or your life is going to extremely difficult.
Do I really have to respond to every PM I get? Do I really have to answer the phone everytime it rings? Do I really have to respond to every thread in which I have once participated? :rolleyes:
- Warren
Do I really have to respond to every PM I get? Do I really have to answer the phone everytime it rings? Do I really have to respond to every thread in which I have once participated? :rolleyes:
- Warren
Do you really have to be an Administrator! :biggrin:
Math Is Hard
Aug4-04, 02:01 AM
Do you really have to be an Administrator! :biggrin:
poor chroot! with all the whining he puts up with, I am guessing he's asked himself that question a time or two.
Do I really have to respond to every PM I get? Do I really have to answer the phone everytime it rings? Do I really have to respond to every thread in which I have once participated? :rolleyes:
- WarrenIf someone sends me a PM, I treat the contents of that message as private, not to be revealed to others without their consent. Similarly, I expect that a PM I send to someone will be treated as private.
What do others feel? Should we respect the "P" part of PM?
I'd also like to add my support for the excellent job that chroot is doing - PF's success owes much to his efforts.
I'd also like to add my support for the excellent job that chroot is doing - PF's success owes much to his efforts.I will second that!!! Kudos to chroot!!! He has done a LOT for this forum.
But you're still here - Chroot hasn't made you leave so he can't be that terrible. Maybe try arguing from a different angle, or from more than one angle at once. Actually, that might not be a good move. The combination of space/time theorems and multiple alternate personalities is....blah blah blah.....and the pie is ready to come out of the oven.
poor chroot! with all the whining he puts up with, I am guessing he's asked himself that question a time or two.
Yes!
I hope he understands that I was just jesting(joking). No doubt it cannot be an easy job 'PFadmin', but I for know that everybody who visists the PF website must have other issue's elsewhere, an 'outside-life', no doubt that chroot does this admin work purely out of enjoyment?..but having said that, it has to be awkward sometimes knowing where to enforce rules of PF, and what he has inside his head as an individual, his everday being/life.
I for one would not entertain the PF mentor job, I am to busy theorizing!..but I do so admire those who do give up their time to do the best they can for the maintenance of the "status-quo".
I agree, Chroot is extremely helpful however, he is easily offended when wrong and often retaliates with personal attacks and does use his administration powers to his advantage.
amen to that-
I think that warren has spent too much time chasing after crackpots- that he has become paranoid and sees crackpots everywhere-
if Sir Martin Rees or Michio Kaku posted on this forum chroot would ban them within 24 hours! :rolleyes:
amen to that-
I think that warren has spent too much time chasing after crackpots-
That's essentially my job here, setAI.
- Warren
That's essentially my job here, setAI.
- Warren
I dig- just watch the "friendly fire"
ZapperZ
Aug12-04, 02:05 PM
if Sir Martin Rees or Michio Kaku posted on this forum chroot would ban them within 24 hours! :rolleyes:
OK, run that by me again on why this is a bad thing?
Zz.
Dagenais
Aug12-04, 03:15 PM
I dig- just watch the "friendly fire"
His mantality is that all the PF staff gets complaints, so it doesn't really matter.
He just PMed me yesterday, threatening to ban me because I called him, "Moron."
After he joined 2 threads and started insulting me, and telling everyone how fatuous my 'debate' tactics were.
Anything wrong with this scenario? Was I suppose to stand by and take his insults without replying?
I didn't insult you, I explained your debate techniques so that others (who were already growing wary of you) would not waste their time talking to a brick wall.
Let's put this into perspective... there are over 10,000 users on this forum. Obviously all 10,000 of you cannot get your own way all the time. I am the most visible admin, and yet I get rougly one complaint per month, maybe even less, and it's almost invariably from some crackpot who's upset that I judged him/her fairly on the merit of their posts.
Overall, I'd venture that few of the positive, upstanding, contributing members of this forum disagree with the way I run the place. My detractors are always the people who disagree with our policies and think they have the right to rewrite them as they see fit.
- Warren
OK, run that by me again on why this is a bad thing?
Zz. :rofl: :rofl: :smile: :eek: :rofl: :eek: :smile: :rofl:
Overall, I'd venture that few of the positive, upstanding, contributing members of this forum disagree with the way I run the place. My detractors are always the people who disagree with our policies and think they have the right to rewrite them as they see fit.
- Warren
I'm sure most of us agree that the majority of your bannings/deletions are waranted- and that the ideas you attack ARE crankish-
however the problem is not whether you are "right" but the condescension and rudeness Warren-
you often will use words like "pointless"/ "useless" or "nonsense"-
I don't know where you are originally from- maybe it is a cultural divide- but where I was raised it is NEVER EVER appropriate or acceptible to say someone's idea is nonesense- even if it is nonsnese! [ESPECIALLY if it is- nonsense tends to flow more greatly from violent psychopaths than demure and rational folks]
it's just not appropriate behavior and is a far greater sin than spewing crackpot ideas-
I'm sure that at the beginning you were more civilized and manored in your criticizm and that multitudes of nuts have made you quite the mysanthrope- but still-
but i'm not one to talk- I can get pretty arrogant sometimes myself- but no sane person would ever let a satanic wacko like me be a mod :biggrin:
there would be days [most every day] where I would literally delete every post on the forum and ban every user simply becasue I felt that day the human race was a disgusting and imbecilic abomination beyond redemption
___________________________
/:set\AI transmedia laboratories
http://setai-transmedia.com
there would be days [most every day] where I would literally delete every post on the forum and ban every user simply becasue I felt that day the human race was a disgusting and imbecilic abomination beyond redemption
And thus you shouldn't be too surprised that your philosophy of moderation is not very important to me. :uhh:
- Warren
And thus you shouldn't be too surprised that your philosophy of moderation is not very important to me. :uhh:
- Warren
an excellent example of the kind of rudeness I mentioned- I never offered a "philosophy of moderation" I simply told you how polite adults behave- then you twisted my later admission [in order to placate] into another insult- turning something that was supposed to be a gesture of empathy into a weapon turned against the one who was trying to empathize-
if you ever talked to someone like that in person- most of the time they would beat the living feces out of you- :rofl:
perhaps you do get beat up alot?
do you have Aspberger's syndrome by any chance? we are currently doing a lot of research with Aspberger's cases- many of our patients exhibit the same sort of antisocial tendencies [as well as many top physicists- even Einstein and Newton may have had Aspberger's]
if you ever talked to someone like that in person- most of the time they would beat the living feces out of you- :rofl:
perhaps you do get beat up alot?
:rofl: Thanks for your input, setAI.
- Warren
I'm much more rude in person thatn in my posts- I'm sure people would want to beat me to a pulp- but I'm a giant [half] black man in a black leather trench-coat with a booming voice- so instead people just walk away most of the time- I don't think they realize that I would never touch them becasue I hate GERMS-
Dagenais
Aug12-04, 05:39 PM
you often will use words like "pointless"/ "useless" or "nonsense"-
I think there was another complaint on "Why this is still Amerikkka" about that. Someone asked Chroot why he had to make things personal when he was simply asking questions.
if you ever talked to someone like that in person- most of the time they would beat the living feces out of you-
I also wondered about that.
Chroot acts tough and powerful behind the protection of his monitor. I doubt he'd ever say half the stuff he says to some of us on this forum in person. One of the best rules for the internet is to not be a coward - talk to the person as if he was sitting right across from you.
I try to remember that here on PF, because on other forums, I can be a lot ruder (though not IRL), and if I knew Chroot was going to PM me about calling him a "moron", I would have made the insult a lot worse.
I'm much more rude in person thatn in my posts
Most people are the opposite. Nice and calm in real life, rude on the internet.
Most people are the opposite. Nice and calm in real life, rude on the internet.
tell me about it- I'm such a a-hole in person sometimes :frown: but I've been communicating with people on-line daily for about 20 years- during that time I've sort of figured out how to not be too rude- but I still screw up sometimes-
the biggest lesson I've learned is that no matter how gentle or reasoned your argument- no one ever accepts that Dr Mengele's research was incredibly valuable- I have ben permanaetly banned from many forums and use-net groups becasue of that belief- even with a disclaimer that tries to seperate out the evil- people still send me screaming emails accusing me of being a sick nazi - which is rather funny considering my ethnicity
the biggest lesson I've learned is that no matter how gentle or reasoned your argument- no one ever accepts that Dr Megele's research was incredibly valuable- I have ben permanaetly banned from many forums and use-net groups becasue of that belief- even with a disclaimer that tries to seperate out the evil- people still send me screaming emails accusing me of being a sick nazi - which is rather funny considering my ethnicity
I don't know who this Dr. Megele is, nor apparently do I want to find out. But your admission that you've been banned from many other online venues speaks volumes about your opinion of me here. Anyone who gets repeatedly banned from a number of online forums must be doing something quite wrong. Since you're not banned here (yet), perhaps I'm actually being more lenient than those other administrators who banned you.
- Warren
I don't know who this Dr. Megele is, nor apparently do I want to find out. But your admission that you've been banned from many other online venues speaks volumes about your opinion of me here. Anyone who gets repeatedly banned from a number of online forums must be doing something quite wrong. Since you're not banned here (yet), perhaps I'm actually being more lenient than those other administrators who banned you.
- Warren
there you go again Warren!
you cannot abuse the gestures of understanding from others to further alienate them! [my mention of my own history of conflict was merely to form a bridge of understanding- you obviously have anger management issues and by empathizing with you I was trying to communicate my understanding of how you feel- this is HOW HUMANS INTERACT SOCIALLY]
what is wrong with you?! [again- if you suffer Aspberger's- I will drop it and apologize]
that is unacceptible behavior in ANY social setting!
btw- Dr Mengele was the chief surgeon at Auschwitz prison- AKA "the angel of Death"-
there you go again Warren!
you cannot abuse the gestures of understanding from others to further alienate them!
let's try using your own inappropriate behavior against you- maybe you will see you problem then:
I don't know who this Dr. Megele is, nor apparently do I want to find out.
this reinforces the fact that you are unqualified to be a mod here- anyone who lacks even the most basic elementary school education in 20th century history as to be ignorant of one of the most infamous figures of WWII is obviously not educated enough in ANY subject to be deciding what is "nonsense"- especially in physics and the sciences
-Warren-mirrored-through-/:set\AI
-you see what it's like?
this reinforces the fact that you are unqualified to be a mod here- anyone who lacks even elemetary school education in 20th century histroy as to be ignorant of one of the most infamous figures of WWII is obviously not educated enough in ANY subject to be deciding what is "nonsense"- especially in physics and the sciences
I certainly didn't learn about the holocaust in elementary school. Besides, this is a science forum, not a history forum. Perhaps you'd be happier elsewhere.
- Warren
let's try using your own inappropriate behavior against you- maybe you will see you problem then:
Quote:
Originally Posted by chroot
I don't know who this Dr. Megele is, nor apparently do I want to find out.
this reinforces the fact that you are unqualified to be a mod here- anyone who lacks even the most basic elementary school education in 20th century history as to be ignorant of one of the most infamous figures of WWII is obviously not educated enough in ANY subject to be deciding what is "nonsense"- especially in physics and the sciences
-Warren-mirrored-through-/:set\AI
-you see what it's like?Uhm, setAI, you misspelled Mengele, you wrote Dr. Megele. I'm not suprised chroot didn't recognize him.
Integral
Aug12-04, 06:39 PM
there you go again Warren!
you cannot abuse the gestures of understanding from others to further alienate them! [my mention of my own history of conflict was merely to form a bridge of understanding- you obviously have anger management issues and by empathizing with you I was trying to communicate my understanding of how you feel- this is HOW HUMANS INTERACT SOCIALLY]
what is wrong with you?! [again- if you suffer Aspberger's- I will drop it and apologize]
that is unacceptible behavior in ANY social setting!
btw- Dr Mengele was the chief surgeon at Auschwitz prison- AKA "the angel of Death"-
Now just what it the problem with the post that led to this rant? Seems to me that you are way over reacting. Perhaps Warren has a valid point. I certainly am not impressed with your current behavior.
setAI posted some crackpot nonsense to the general physics forums and got some warning points for it. In response, he thinks I'm a horrible person. This is altogether typical... it seems the warning system does nothing for the forum besides giving the warned user the name of a specific mentor to lash out at for doing his/her job.
This was the post that garnered the crackpot points:
final state of individual universes: probably a very diffuse quark-gluon plasma with a few weird transdimentional artifacts floating around here and there marking where various intelligent life exited that universe for other spaces- maybe a few hangers-on actually encoded into the plasma
- Warren
Integral
Aug12-04, 07:03 PM
LOL, That is ripe stuff, you must have cleaned that up before I could get to it. But, I was referring to your post in this thread. Seemed pretty civil to me.
IMHO,
Warren has little or no troubles with those who know something of Physics. The ones who have the most trouble are those who ASSUME that they have knowledge of Physics. If you find yourself at odds with him (unless you are discussing politics) you may want to check your references. If you have no references then stop talking and start learning.
setAI posted some crackpot nonsense
- Warren
if you recall- only a few hours ago- I admitted that the post was rather sloppy and so I consceeded it was probably crap [I was intending to simply suggest the standard heat-death/"Big Rip" idea with an aside about what intelligence might try to adapt- for instance Read Martin Rees' 'Our Cosmic habitat' http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0691114773/qid=1092357090/sr=8-3/ref=pd_ka_3/102-8005097-6057701?v=glance&s=books&n=507846 - then you can argue with him- and stop arguing with the MESSENGER!]- if you recall- at first I didn't even REMEMBER posting that stuff- I wouldn't have even tried to argue with you if you hadn't called it "nonsense" which made me rightfully angry- just that one word caused everything-
I CONCEEDED and you are STILL using inapropriate language that violates the rules of this forum [ "warning description: Personal Attack- Vulgar and or disrespectful nature towards another member"- this goes for MODS too Warren ]
BOTTOM LINE:
answer this question YES or NO:
Is it EVER under ANY circumstances acceptible to call an idea "nonsense" or "useless" in mature discorse?
the answer is obviously no- but clearly you you don't agree with that- but why? surely you would agree that if an argument is fallacious that inapropriate insults are not required to dispute it? that insults only WEAKEN an argument- even a sound one?
all I am saying [again]- is NOT that you are wrong- just that you don't respond appropriately when you are right- and so you end up being wrong anyway- this does not help the cause of rational scientific discourse on-line-
it sets a terrible example- and is why other science forums criticize physicsforums so much-
ONCE AGAIN-
you are right- but you don't have to be a prick about it- [no crackpot would ever admit that would they?]
is that clear enough?
just think about it- there is no reason for you to keep insulting me- I understand where you come from- I was very similar to you when I was your age and working at the Santa Fe Inst- I would have simply ignored all this if I didn't feel a kinship-
Now just what it the problem with the post that led to this rant? Seems to me that you are way over reacting. Perhaps Warren has a valid point. I certainly am not impressed with your current behavior.
rudeness is never "valid" that is my only point- I agreed that warren is right- he just doesn't hadle it appropriately- I have recieved the same lecture from my girlfriend/collaborator many times- I am simply trying to save Warren from some of the annoyance I've dealt with for acting like he does- Warren- learn from my mistakes- it doesn't matter if you ar right if you are a jerk- it takes all legitimacy from your argument-
would you dispute this?
jimmy p
Aug12-04, 07:49 PM
I dont have much contact with him, but I remember that a while back I started a thread about magnetic fields at absolute zero that Chroot labelled as impossible and nonsense. I rolled with the punch and accepted that he has a superior knowledge in physics and knows what he is talking about whereas I just try to link ideas through an intermediate level of education.
Maybe I miss out on a lot that goes on, but usually I accept when I am wrong, whereas a lot of people that complain about Chroot have trouble doing so. A lot of people start threads called "chroot", and I always read them and side with him, because they are mainly whiny and pointless because they dont get their way. Controlling so many threads and posts a day is a gruelling task, which chroot and the rest of the staff handle with patience and competence.
Chroot is a vital part of the admin, who has done a fine job for many years and it shows in the way that the forum is run.
Keep up the good work I say. :smile:
I rolled with the punch and accepted that he has a superior knowledge in physics and knows what he is talking about whereas I just try to link ideas through an intermediate level of education.
I agree with you- but I can't roll with the punches- I have no trouble admitting that I'm wrong- and have done so- but that doesn't excuse insults- when a man insults another man- it doesn't even matter what they were talking about- you get angry- I'm not an herbivore-
the word "nonsense" by itself- regardless of context- is grounds for war
The word "nonsense" is grounds for war? :uhh:
*backs away slowly*
- Warren
is someone out there waiting for somebody else to admit that he/she is terrible and wrong and then willing to apologize in public ? if somebody does, is everyone going to be happy?
can a brutha get a hug? :frown:
PRodQuanta
Aug12-04, 10:54 PM
As long as you're not the best at what you do, you will always be critiqued. Life outside of this forum is very rough. I say use chroot's critisism as a way to get used to it. I say you should thank him for that and be done with it.
Why? Because the truth hurts.
Paden Roder
Moonbear
Aug12-04, 11:29 PM
I agree with you- but I can't roll with the punches- I have no trouble admitting that I'm wrong- and have done so- but that doesn't excuse insults- when a man insults another man- it doesn't even matter what they were talking about- you get angry- I'm not an herbivore-
the word "nonsense" by itself- regardless of context- is grounds for war
I stay away from the hard-core physics topics since I don't know enough about them to participate in any meaningful way, so don't know what sort of interactions go on over there. However, I've read this thread through, and am baffled. Why is it bad to call an idea nonsense? Especially to the extent that you'd call it grounds for war? Do you believe there is no such thing as nonsense or nonsensical arguments? Does it make an argument more valid to tiptoe around the truth of it? Of course I'm making the assumption that calling the argument nonsense is backed up by a reason why it's nonsense. In science, one needs tough skin. Even if you have a revolutionary new idea that is going to change our entire understanding of science that isn't nonsense, you better be prepared for people to be unwilling to accept it at first, and be ready to defend your argument if you think it's really correct. One has to learn there is a difference between finding fault in one's argument and finding fault with one's person.
I know I'm more likely to tell a peer that an idea is nonsense than someone I consider a novice in my field. A novice I will assume doesn't know much, so I try to be encouraging and take time out to explain things without telling them outright they are wrong, using phrases like "well, that's not quite right, but..." or "let's think about this together." If someone is a peer, I expect they know the basics and can take it if I tell them something is wrong because we all know we are wrong sometimes and suggest something that makes no sense at all, that upon further reflection, we realize our error. Heck, sometimes it can be a simple as skipping a step in thinking through something, or we're tired and forgot something obvious. It doesn't mean the person is stupid or not knowledgeable, just that they didn't get this one thing right.
ZapperZ
Aug13-04, 07:22 AM
I'm sorry, but I have to wipe a bit of tears in my eyes for giggling way too much. There are actually people who still go over the edge after an idea is called "nonsense" or "impossible"? That's just too precious! :)
I have seen STRONGER words being passed around during a physics conference. Try to attend one (the APS March Meeting - the largest yearly conglomeration of physicist in the world - is a good place to start). Or try attending a seminar at, let's say, Stony Brook University with the "Russian Mafia" and see if the presenter doesn't get chopped to pieces when they disagree with you. In a famous anecdote of Bob Laughlin at Stanford, he once yelled at Chandra Varma of Bell Labs after Varma finished giving his seminar at Stanford (and I paraphrase), "Chandra, Chandra, Chandra... We have many, impressionable graduates students here in attendence. And for the past hour, you have LIED to them!"
And all these happen in "real life" and not on the internet.
I'm not justifying such actions. I'm illustrating the fact that most of us in this profession have developed a thick enough skin that being offended because something is called "nonsense" is.... well..... kinda hilarious. So to pick on Chroot for something which I find rather trivial is, well, trivial. And it is even a moot point because what was being called nonsense IS nonsense, by all consensus on here. So what's the problem?
I have been on the 'net since 1989, and that's a very long time. I've seen way too many discussion areas deteriorate because no one was willing to step up and impose at least some sort of standard and quality. It's about time that we have a least one or two areas in which quackery, mediocrity, and laziness are simply not good enough! There are already overwhelmingly many places for this, and we don't need PF to be another one.
My support is with Chroot and the physics moderators who have done a superb job of the Physics section (can't say anything about other areas of PF, including that "Theory Development" thingy, that I don't frequent).
Zz.
P.S. I've seen both Laughlin and Varma outside of a conference hall sitting in a corner discussing physics quietly as if they are two best friends.
Tom Mattson
Aug13-04, 09:37 AM
In a famous anecdote of Bob Laughlin at Stanford, he once yelled at Chandra Varma of Bell Labs after Varma finished giving his seminar at Stanford (and I paraphrase), "Chandra, Chandra, Chandra... We have many, impressionable graduates students here in attendence. And for the past hour, you have LIED to them!"
:rofl: My professor told me another "Stanford anecdote". Bjorken (as in Bjorken and Drell) was giving a talk about some open problem, and another famous (infamous?) physicist named Stan Brodsky was in attendance. He jumped in without really thinking saying, "Ooh Ooh, I have a solution!".
Bjorken rolled his eyes and said, "Stan, we don't need your solution."
Point being: It happens all the time, even in real life, and everyone needs to get used to it.
I CONCEEDED and you are STILL using inapropriate language that violates the rules of this forum [ "warning description: Personal Attack- Vulgar and or disrespectful nature towards another member"- this goes for MODS too Warren ]
I think there is a misunderstanding here. Calling a post, "nonsense" is not a personal attack. It's directed at the post, not at the person. Now saying something like, "That post is nonsense, and I would expect nothing less from a blithering idiot like you," is a personal attack.
BOTTOM LINE:
answer this question YES or NO:
Is it EVER under ANY circumstances acceptible to call an idea "nonsense" or "useless" in mature discorse?
YES
the answer is obviously no-
Rats! I guess I'm not going to pass your course on netiquette. :cry:
but clearly you you don't agree with that- but why? surely you would agree that if an argument is fallacious that inapropriate insults are not required to dispute it? that insults only WEAKEN an argument- even a sound one?
I don't agree, because identifying nonsense for what it is does not constitute an insult or a personal attack.
the word "nonsense" by itself- regardless of context- is grounds for war
Nonsense. :biggrin:
Dagenais
Aug13-04, 01:46 PM
I'm illustrating the fact that most of us in this profession have developed a thick enough skin that being offended because something is called "nonsense" is.... well..... kinda hilarious. So to pick on Chroot for something which I find rather trivial is, well, trivial.
The original point of this thread wasn't that Chroot called things, 'nonsense', but the fact that he has abused his administration powers and doesn't behave like a moderator:
PMB_PHY:
You're a forum administrator and you abuse that position quite often. Please act more mature if you want to hold such a responsible position.
ZapperZ
Aug13-04, 02:03 PM
The original point of this thread wasn't that Chroot called things, 'nonsense', but the fact that he has abused his administration powers and doesn't behave like a moderator:
In that part of my posting, I wasn't addressing the "original point of this thread". I was addressing the issue that by simply calling a posting "nonsense" is being rude and an "act of war" is being picky and overly prima donna'ish.
What you call as being abusive, I call it housekeeping.
Zz.
Moonbear
Aug13-04, 08:37 PM
The original point of this thread wasn't that Chroot called things, 'nonsense', but the fact that he has abused his administration powers and doesn't behave like a moderator:
The comment about calling things nonsense was, from my perspective, provided as an example of his so-called abuse of powers. Perhaps it was a minor example, but the way it was highlighted suggests there may be some exaggeration of the issue at hand.
:confused:
Besides, Chroot isn't just a moderator, he's an administrator. I figure that gives him a lot of say so of what is and isn't acceptable on this board. I'm not exactly sure of the heirarchy here, but it seemed to me that if someone is an admin, then they are a partial owner of the board, or something very close to it. That means, it's their board, they can make the rules however they want, even if they don't seem fair. Life isn't fair. If anyone hasn't learned that yet, it's a good time to start getting used to it.
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