View Full Version : Why would God create insanity?
InfPerf000
Aug9-04, 09:09 AM
If we and this world were indeed created by an almighty "god" then "he" could not have created insanity. According to christians, we were all created with free will and that is the reason that there is violence and suffering in the world. However, insane people do not necessarily have free will. The reasoning behind this "free will" is flawed as some people do not have it all of the time. Why would "god" "create" insanity?
Heh.. I dont know if I should touch this one.. I dont believe in god or religion.
But, your definition of 'insanity' is a little unclear.
Do you mean schizophrenia? Psychopathy? bipolar disorder?
Most of these illnesses come from chemical inbalances in the brain, and very few people are actually 'insane'. A psychotic episode is a bieffect of some of those disorders, and most people who think of insanity think about a psychotic episode.
God didn't create insanity, its a defect of the brain, the human brain hasn't evolved enough to avoid these imbalances yet.
heh i know this probably wasnt the answer you were after, but it's true.
god couldnt have created the universe or us, if so, are there any god particles i dont know about?
michelle s
Aug9-04, 09:26 AM
What if God created insanity for the benifit of other human beings?
What if these "insane" people are just there for others to appreciate their "free will" and their ability of choice?
personally i do not believe in choice. and i believe that insane people could possibly be the key to understanding... about "why".
"The reasoning behind this "free will" is flawed as some people do not have it all of the time."
Maybe God made mistakes in his design... ?
InfPerf000
Aug9-04, 09:38 AM
But if god created us then he would have meant for that person to have that defect in their brain, causing that person to have no or reduced free will, therefore disproving the fact that everyone is born with free will and has the choice to be violent or cause suffering.
God supposedly created ALL human beings with free will. Christains do not believe that some people are less than others, as an example to them.
The idea of a "god" is that they would be all powerful and all knowing, so they could not make mistakes.
But the problem is god didnt create the defect, society, nursing and upbringing did.
The person who gets it develops it over time, because of stress or other outside influences.
Personally i don't see god fitting into the picture anywhere, as earth is just the sum of its parts, we're all independent parts moving and doing things with out subjective free will, and thus people get problems.
god just doesnt fit in anywhere.
Clouds are not perfect spheres, nor are mountains perfect cones. If not for insane people, it would be more uniform don't you think (Society in general)? Then again, it couldn't possibly be more uniform than what it already is... Insane comes from the Brain, and no ones Brain is alike (thinks identically the same way, same thought line, everyday). This would be chaos theory of a system, and if insane people (standard 'insane') ruled the world it would be a much different place. However this isn't the case because it's a little of us all, and we're not all insane.. are we?
Thallium
Aug9-04, 11:51 AM
Which God are we talking about? The God that philosophers try to construct out of their own reason or anything else?
michelle s
Aug9-04, 12:14 PM
god the creator.
TENYEARS
Aug9-04, 02:03 PM
Out of god everything is created, for god is everywhere. As to god creating insanity, it was not a choice for god. There is a choice at all moments a choiceless choice there is no destiny and yet the future may be seen. There are no mad people, only those who do not understand "mad" people. For the claimer of the mad are also mad. There is a relative expresion of what humans call madness relative to what is called a semi normal functioning, but from someone that witnesses absolute terms, all human action is madness. Sanity is achieved when you realize you are indeed mad. What species would do all that human kind does and call it humane or civilized? Questions may only be answered by oneself, each must climb the hill under their own power. Sometimes you may lend a hand to keep another from falling, or in anger push another, but the universe is just for the fall is slight but the manifestation of the system as a whole will be balanced and fair. If the universe was not fair, it could not exist.
InfPerf000
Aug9-04, 02:15 PM
Can't u ppl stay on a subject!
I am talking about the christian god as most ppl no of, not the "god of grass" or sum **** like that.
And u obviously have no idea of the concept of christian "free will".
TENYEARS, dont post here any more plz
I am also assuming for the moment that god does exist
You should have stated christian god in the first post. Many have different answer for different gods.
Les Sleeth
Aug9-04, 02:26 PM
There is a simple answer to this question IF we don't arbitrarily assume anything about the "creator" other than it is something (being, forces, ?) which has been instrumental in bringing about creation.
If we don't assume the typical theological traits, then what can we use to guide us in imagining what a creator might be like? Well, the nature of creation itself could be a reflection of creationary nature and abilities. All of creation is energetic and vibratory, for example, so maybe those are part of the creationary qualities. Similarly, because creation does have problems, it could be that the creator is not perfect at all, and is not all knowing or all powerful. Maybe the creator is a learning force, an evolving force, an organizing force doing the best it can given the level of development it has achieved.
I might add, just because the creator isn't OMNI-EVERYTHING doesn't mean it isn't something pretty damn awesome nonetheless.
InfPerf000
Aug9-04, 02:30 PM
You should have stated christian god in the first post. Many have different answer for different gods.
i quite clearly said christian in the 1st post
I think the creator would be OMNI-EVERYTHING.
As for the cristian god, if god were to make the universe in 7 days even that god has limits. That god would not be all knowing. Powerful, yes.
Les Sleeth
Aug9-04, 02:32 PM
Can't u ppl stay on a subject!
I am talking about the christian god as most ppl no of, not the "god of grass" or sum **** like that.
And u obviously have no idea of the concept of christian "free will".
TENYEARS, dont post here any more plz
I am also assuming for the moment that god does exist
As Enos said, you should have made your statement more clear up front. So don't act indignant when you are at fault (you only related Christian belief to free will). However, if you intend this to be a discussion about the "Christian" God, then you have also made this a religious issue which is forbidden to be discussed here at PF.
How exactly do you know that insane people don't have free will?
What if God created insanity for the benifit of other human beings?
Insanity is a by product of the imperfection we [choose to] exercise. Choosing to do the wrong things can impact you more than you think. The way you choose to think can greatly alter the brain's chemistry. Not to mention the impact of other people's imperfect decision on your mind.
God supposedly created ALL human beings with free will. Christains do not believe that some people are less than others, as an example to them.
Wrong. According to the Bible people can and have lost the ablity to control themselves (aka lose free will as you might say) but they are not held accountable for their actions when this happens. Also not all people are equal in Christian beliefs, but only God can measure a man's worth.
But the problem is god didnt create the defect, society, nursing and upbringing did.
More accurately: God aloud it to be possible.
InfPerf000
Aug9-04, 02:40 PM
As Enos said, you should have made your statement more clear up front. So don't act indignant when you are at fault (you only related Christian belief to free will). However, if you intend this to be a discussion about the "Christian" God, then you have also made this a religious issue which is forbidden to be discussed here at PF.
lmao
you are a matter
InfPerf000
Aug9-04, 02:42 PM
How exactly do you know that insane people don't have free will?
Insanity is a by product of the imperfection we [choose to] exercise. Choosing to do the wrong things can impact you more than you think. The way you choose to think can greatly alter the brain's chemistry. Not to mention the impact of other people's imperfect decision on your mind.
Wrong. According to the Bible people can and have lost the ablity to control themselves (aka lose free will as you might say) but they are not held accountable for their actions when this happens. Also not all people are equal in Christian beliefs, but only God can measure a man's worth.
More accurately: God aloud it to be possible.
Trust me, i know insane ppl dont hav free will
Les Sleeth
Aug9-04, 02:42 PM
lmao
you are a matter
Which means . . . ?
Les Sleeth
Aug9-04, 02:45 PM
Trust me, i know insane ppl dont hav free will
"Trust me" is not a logical argument. Do you have a point to make or are you just here to ridicule religious belief?
InfPerf000
Aug9-04, 02:47 PM
"Trust me" is not a logical argument. Do you have a point to make or are you just here to ridicule religious belief?
im here 2 ridicule. FULL STOP.
Trust me, i know insane ppl dont hav free will
That about as ridiculous as me saying "Trust me, there is a God."
Trust me, there is a God.
:)
Loren Booda
Aug9-04, 09:35 PM
Why would God create insanity? He/She had to find a way to keep me busy - "Idle hands are the Devil's workshop."
Really, insanity is just another manifestation of biological illness. I had a friend who suffered from diabetes, and attacked policemen on several occasions. Recall that diabetes, a possible cause of low blood sugar and resultant aggravation, is primarily a disease of the pancreas! Also, the genetic anomaly XYY may contribute to criminality, yet is not immediately associated with a particular mental illness diagnosis.
The best analogy to mental illnesses is the effects of psychoactive drugs and their similarity to the symptoms of depression, mania, paranoia, hallucinations, delusions, anxiety... . Their purpose? In moderation, brain diseases like mania can become creativity, hallucinations become insight, and delusions - a career in politics.
God does not exist, the universe is just a constantly changing blob of energy.
And you generalize 'insanity' too much, I myself have been diagnozed with schizophrenia and I know more about 'insanity' and psychotic episodes than anyone here probably.
insanity is not something you are born with, its not a state of mind even, it's a temporary mental solution to assign an external enemy to inner fears the mind can't understand.
as such, 'why did god create insanity', is both irrelevant and uninteresting, to me at least.
Thallium
Aug10-04, 08:58 AM
Out of god everything is created, for god is everywhere. As to god creating insanity, it was not a choice for god. There is a choice at all moments a choiceless choice there is no destiny and yet the future may be seen. There are no mad people, only those who do not understand "mad" people. For the claimer of the mad are also mad. There is a relative expresion of what humans call madness relative to what is called a semi normal functioning, but from someone that witnesses absolute terms, all human action is madness. Sanity is achieved when you realize you are indeed mad. What species would do all that human kind does and call it humane or civilized? Questions may only be answered by oneself, each must climb the hill under their own power. Sometimes you may lend a hand to keep another from falling, or in anger push another, but the universe is just for the fall is slight but the manifestation of the system as a whole will be balanced and fair. If the universe was not fair, it could not exist.
Is God everywhere? Well which God? The Christian God, or the God you propose out of your own understanding? For Man can understand everything? Oh yes! *sarcastic*
Thallium
Aug10-04, 08:59 AM
By the way. I was insane. I had a free will and that is why I sit here today!
Loren Booda
Aug10-04, 10:59 AM
God creates insanity to cure it.
I don't think it can be said that God created insanity, anymore than it can be said He created the habit of biting one's nails. If humans have free-will, then being sane or insane is a personal choice, not something God forces on people. And if we don't have free-will, then insanity just doesn't exist.
What people do have are distortions of perception, and that is something that can be "blamed" on God. If my eyes keep showing me things that don't exist in reality, then I have no choice but to behave accordingly. If I keep hearing a voice in my head and I can't shut it off, then it's only natural that my behavior will seem strange to other people. So the real question is, why would God create humans in a way that they can perceive things that don't exist, or fail to perceive things that exist? And the answer to that question, I think, is rather ordinary - because experiencing illusions is a small price to pay for the gift of having an imagination.
Deeviant
Aug10-04, 01:55 PM
The main reason I created insanity is so I could be a god.
TENYEARS
Aug11-04, 08:47 PM
That would be god I witnessed/experienced, same as Mosses, or the same as black elk or the homeless guy down the street or anyone else who witnessed the truth. I am me, but me was born to a catholic practicing family and I still practice with my own family. This label has no limitations for limitations are not real, but for those who make it real in their "mind".
Note: If an "insane" person does not have free will, do any of you? You call out what you believe and that is all. You decide upon what you believe and what you believe for the most part contradicts itself and you do not know the difference. This is the truth. A forum is like TV right, entertainment, an excuse, a little mind candy.
I think the question is insane. Did God create bashfulness, bravado, ADHD, pleurisy, arthritis? If God created us he got the whole ball of wax. Did he have all our parts scattered on the ground and say, ok, the arm goes here, the torso there, oh, yes, and let's not forget to throw in the insanity! But where do I put it? I know! I'll put it in Eve's head and Adam's genitals. :biggrin:
pmb_phy
Aug29-04, 05:28 PM
If we and this world were indeed created by an almighty "god" then "he" could not have created insanity. According to christians, we were all created with free will and that is the reason that there is violence and suffering in the world. However, insane people do not necessarily have free will. The reasoning behind this "free will" is flawed as some people do not have it all of the time. Why would "god" "create" insanity?
I don't believe that God created insanity. All things that exist are not creations of God in my opinion. Things happen which God doesn't like. For example, God didn't like how humans turned out at one point, i.e.
Genisis 6:6 - The Lord was grieved that he had made man on earth, and his heart was filled with pain.
Do you think that God forsaw how man would turn out and he knew that he'd be in pain and have to wipe them out before he even created the universe? I don't think its that way. I think that some things he doesn't know and that's how things will come to be and how humans will turn out, sickness and all. In this case God did not forsee people being scum that he'd have to wipe out with the great flood.
But this is my personal opinion.
Pete
I don't believe that God created insanity. All things that exist are not creations of God in my opinion. Things happen which God doesn't like. For example, God didn't like how humans turned out at one point, i.e.
Do you think that God forsaw how man would turn out and he knew that he'd be in pain and have to wipe them out before he even created the universe? I don't think its that way. I think that some things he doesn't know and that's how things will come to be and how humans will turn out, sickness and all. In this case God did not forsee people being scum that he'd have to wipe out with the great flood.
But this is my personal opinion.
Pete
Have you ever known a newborn child to be scum? A 2 yr. old? If God didn't know that the people he created would turn out to be scum, and he IS supposed to be all-knowing, is he not, then how could he know that the children he supposedly wiped out couldn't have been worthwhile human beings if they'd been given the chance to live? It's all a bunch of poppy cock in my estimation. If I'm going to believe in a god, it will be a more benevolent one than one who says the hell with it, you're all gonna die. And people wonder how other people can be atheists...
False Prophet
Aug29-04, 09:37 PM
Why did God create insanity?
Because he's INSANE!
If there was no 'insane' would there be 'sanity'?
I don't believe that God created insanity. All things that exist are not creations of God in my opinion. Things happen which God doesn't like. For example, God didn't like how humans turned out at one point, i.e.
Do you think that God forsaw how man would turn out and he knew that he'd be in pain and have to wipe them out before he even created the universe? I don't think its that way. I think that some things he doesn't know and that's how things will come to be and how humans will turn out, sickness and all. In this case God did not forsee people being scum that he'd have to wipe out with the great flood.
But this is my personal opinion.
Pete
"God didn't know"! which bible are you reading? From the bits I've botherd reading 'he' (thats God) comes a cross as all knowing!
pmb_phy
Aug30-04, 06:32 AM
"God didn't know"! which bible are you reading? From the bits I've botherd reading 'he' (thats God) comes a cross as all knowing!Please show me where the Bible says that God is all knowing and what that means. For all I know it means that God knows all there is to know and since the future is not here yet then that is not something knowable. I can't see how there can be free will when God knows all details of the future. Please explain that to me.
Also did you not read where I said - But this is my personal opinion?That means that if the Bible says the God is all knowing and that means he knows the future then I think the Bible is wrong on that point. God did not write the Bible. People did.
Have you ever known a newborn child to be scum? A 2 yr. old? If God didn't know that the people he created would turn out to be scum, and he IS supposed to be all-knowing, is he not, then how could he know that the children he supposedly wiped out couldn't have been worthwhile human beings if they'd been given the chance to live?When I see God I'll ask him and get back to you. In anycase you're jumping to conclusions. For all we know God wiped them all out because he knows that scum will raise their children to be scum. Since we don't know anything about those people we can't say.
It's all a bunch of poppy cock in my estimation. If I'm going to believe in a god, it will be a more benevolent one than one who says the hell with it, you're all gonna die. And people wonder how other people can be atheists...You're assuming that death is a horrible thing in the eyes of God. Tell us - If you believe in God and the Bible then what is it you think happens after death? Especially from back then. We don't know any facts, that's for sure. For all we know God "recycled" those souls into a new life where they got to start all over again in a decent society.
And people wonder why God and the Bible has a bad reputation - they think they can read and understand the mind of God.
Pete
you are correct, I have been unable to find a passage in the bible that says god knows the future. My apologys on my uninformed assumption.
olde drunk
Aug30-04, 06:57 AM
i see a god that is 'aware' of all that happens; not knowing. we have freewill to experience this world, this is our current focus and playground.
if we come to understand experience, we move on to other areas of the universe. if we become enamoured of this world or fail to get the message, we get recycled.
love&peace,
olde drunk
pmb_phy
Aug30-04, 06:58 AM
you are correct, I have been unable to find a passage in the bible that says god knows the future. My apologys on my uninformed assumption.No problemo. We live and learn. After all, that's why we're here, right? :smile:
Pete
As to His Omnipresence:
"and He it is that encompasses all things." (IV : 126).
" . . . . and wherever you turn, there is God's countenance. Lo! God is All-Embracing, All-Knowing." (QsII : 115).
pmb_phy
Aug31-04, 04:13 AM
As to His Omnipresence:
"and He it is that encompasses all things." (IV : 126).
" . . . . and wherever you turn, there is God's countenance. Lo! God is All-Embracing, All-Knowing." (QsII : 115).
As I said above - For all I know it means that God knows all there is to know and since the future is not here yet then that is not something knowable.
Pete
TENYEARS
Aug31-04, 08:48 PM
The real truth is you are afraid to realize what you already know because the truth of god is so dam scarry that you would rather deny reality, than be subject to the pain of knowing the truth. It is normal, it is part of the process. Life sometimes puts us in a position for the realization of this truth and sometimes not. The old must be cleared away for the mind to see what is. Would you know words born from truth or must they be the word of the day the week the month. Must it be the headline in science magazine or the latesest periodical, if these are your truths if books are the source of you knowlege, then you will be blind until they are not.
False Prophet
Sep4-04, 02:49 PM
God has a crystal ball, he can see the future just like we can see the past. Maybe God is the future and the past. God is so rich at least he could go buy a crystal ball to see the future.
Thallium
Sep6-04, 11:38 AM
God did not create insanity. It was the Devil who interfered with sanity.
cragwolf
Sep6-04, 03:43 PM
God creates insanity to cure it.
That would be a very sadistic god.
Loren Booda
Sep6-04, 05:11 PM
I think so when I feel insane.
Artorius
Sep7-04, 12:35 PM
The question, "Why would god create insanity?" implies the existence of this thing called "god." So, I ask, "What is god?" Since this question cannot be answered intelligibly, the question regarding the existence of insanity similarly cannot be answered within the context of this thing called "god."
Within the context of science, however, the presence of insanity can be explained as an imbalance in chemicals that are in the brain, a lack of development of a certain part of the brain, or some injury to the brain. Science can explain insanity's existence. This "god" thing cannot.
Philocrat
Sep7-04, 09:11 PM
If we and this world were indeed created by an almighty "god" then "he" could not have created insanity.
This is a very GOOD ARGUMENT.....and it is completely true. But a more logically reliable and consistent way to put it is to say:
since God is still creating the world, God has, and never had, no 'INTENTION' of creating insanity, and even if there is currently one, there is no proof that GOD intends to leave it permanently in us.
According to christians, we were all created with free will and that is the reason that there is violence and suffering in the world. However, insane people do not necessarily have free will. The reasoning behind this "free will" is flawed as some people do not have it all of the time. Why would "god" "create" insanity?
The problem with free will is that you cannot install it in things that are structurally and functionally defective by their original designs. Worst still, attempt to install things with free will in chaotic places such as our present universe. In Chaotic Places, you have INTENDED CAUSAL PATHWAYS mixed with ALTERNATIVE (UNINTENDED) CAUSAL PATHWAYS, and since the will is free to choose, what would stop it from choosing one or the other, or even a combination of both? Nothing. So, a logically sound argument is to say:
Since God created the world and is still doing so with the full 'INTENTION' of bringing it to a PERFECT CONCLUSION, God had no 'INTENTION' of installing wanted and unwanted causal pathways in one chaotic place and install a free-willing being within. Man shall one day always ply God's Intended causal pathway and choose what is always good, without any cause for deviating into God's unwanted alternative causal pathways.
Loren Booda
Sep7-04, 10:54 PM
Insanity has often been a way toward God. Look at all those who would claim to be God Himself.
Philocrat
Sep8-04, 12:21 AM
Insanity has often been a way toward God. Look at all those who would claim to be God Himself.
Well, Transitional Logic or the Logic of Potentiality tends to accommodate this, but this is represented in a more consistent way as follows:
Man is potentially God
and does not say:
Man is God.
The former may be conceptually and actually true, but no one in actuality can claim the latter.
physicskid
Sep8-04, 04:52 AM
This seems like a good argument against the existence of god anyway.
Insane man has no control over his actions, therefore he is a 'Free man'! :biggrin: He has no restrictions over his thinking. I suppose that's why plenty of genius aren't really normal.
>Insanity could also be caused by biological defects, besides social influences.
some people do not have it all of the time. Why would "god" "create" insanity?
Hey I just talked with GOD and “HE” said! I did not create insanity, rather insanity created me!
wuliheron
Sep13-04, 04:42 PM
Insanity is not recognized by the American Psychiatric Association, only by the legal courts, and their definition concerns whether people are aware of what is right and wrong. The broader dictionary definition indicates that insanity is doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results. This means that scratching an itch that won't go away can be considered insane behavior.
Demonstrably, God did not create insane people, society created the concept of insanity.
Easiest solution to every problem, denial! LoL! So now madness doesn’t exist? Wow what a concept. So many Gods so little time, pick the right one or go to hell? where does it stop?
wuliheron
Sep14-04, 05:16 AM
Easiest solution to every problem, denial! LoL! So now madness doesn’t exist? Wow what a concept. So many Gods so little time, pick the right one or go to hell? where does it stop?
Millennia ago people thought the insane were either blessed by the Gods or cursed by the devil. Then came the idea they were somehow evil in and of themselves. Last but not least they were viewed as having a medical problem. Today, all of these paradymes can be found to various degrees.
Within the next fifty years psychologists believe they will have cures for the vast majority of mental illnesses. A more complete understanding of how the brain and mind relate to behavior and environment is central to resolving the issue. I'd give it at least another century.
Then at least a few millennia before the knowledge is integrated into society.
Exactly, we are the “product” of our “complex environment”, I sometimes wonder why does religious text not mention space travel……..
Loren Booda
Sep14-04, 10:38 AM
How can one convince another that their reality, their spirit, is "sick"? Half of all seriously mentally ill supposedly suffer from "anosognosia," or lack of insight into their "disease." Could this rather be for some a defense of their faith?
wuliheron
Sep14-04, 10:38 AM
Exactly, we are the “product” of our “complex environment”, I sometimes wonder why does religious text not mention space travel……..
Words and concepts only have demonstrable meaning according to their function in a given context. Again, what it means to be human cannot be reduced to one particular context such as chemistry or systems analysis. Each has it's own validity according to specific contexts, but is utterly meaningless in others.
Our relativity to GOD is relevant only by prophet/s, is it not?, or do you get an internal sense as well? I know, we think and imagine within a certain frame, but so far what we have accumulated is due to our curiosity and our “surrounding”. “We” till this day do not have “external knowledge”, so why would GOD create insanity, especially if the intention as “stated” in the “main 3”, is worship and good deeds.
theist: One would need to know GOD and it’s Nature to know why HE/SHE/IT create such things.
atheist: biological & environmental dynamics.
wuliheron: do you believe in GOD, if I may ask?
Loren Booda
Sep14-04, 04:37 PM
Speak to Me
"I've been mad for fvcking years, absolutely years, been
over the edge for yonks, been working me buns off for bands..."
"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the
most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even
if you're not mad..."
-Pink Floyd
wuliheron
Sep14-04, 05:31 PM
wuliheron: do you believe in GOD, if I may ask?
No, I'm an Agnostic Mystic. Existence is the only miracle I need, and as far as I am concerned it does not require any explanation.
Tigron-X
Sep15-04, 05:58 AM
Well according to the Bible since we disobeyed God and left Eden, we have been responsible for our own creation and survival. Overtime, we learn what can happen in life when we do not take account for all the laws that construct it and hold it together. Past decisions have affected today and today's decisions will affect tomorrow, so the free will of mankind is affected by his neighbor. Insanity is a result of our ignorance, and a mistake is the best teacher.
123rock
Sep25-04, 11:07 AM
But if god created us then he would have meant for that person to have that defect in their brain, causing that person to have no or reduced free will, therefore disproving the fact that everyone is born with free will and has the choice to be violent or cause suffering.
God supposedly created ALL human beings with free will. Christains do not believe that some people are less than others, as an example to them.
The idea of a "god" is that they would be all powerful and all knowing, so they could not make mistakes.
A very good point. But the definition of free will has to be cleared up a bit.
The soul would choose a set of choices based on the possibilities it is given.
If the soul has to choose whether to kill a person by slitting their throat, or by smothering them, the fact that a choice isn't given to it that you can hang them, doesn't mean that they aren't choosing.
This limit of choices can be seen not just through insanity, but through regular people's choices, for example you could stab yourself in the eye with a pen, but would you really do it?
You could, but your brain doesn't want you to and thus you are obliged to play by the rules of nature, which I suppose God created.
I think that in Matrix:Reloaded, the oracle pretty much sums it up that you aren't here to make the choices, but to understand them. Thus meaning that you have already made them and here is the proof.
Philocrat
Sep25-04, 12:27 PM
God had no choice.
God had choices:
1) The choice of being God and God only
2) The choice of doing something else other than being God (such as creating something else other than itself/herself/himself)
I have studied the 'Book of Nautre' to the very last page and I have found no logical or quantitative device with which to reconcile (1) and (2), one with the other. If anyone has found such a device, let them table it.
I believe there are certain principles that even God must follow.
Philocrat
Sep25-04, 05:47 PM
I believe there are certain principles that even God must follow.
Correct ....and I strongly believe in this too. In fact this is one observation and statement of fact that I have been waiting for many years for someone to make. But then how do you reconcile this with those who turn God into a magician or a miracle maker, that is, those who treat God as if He/She/It is not following a procedure? This is a logical and quantitative nightmare for the faint-hearted.
The standard belief in philosophy now is that God is incompatible with logic, due to a huge catolgue of inconsistencies in both the Ontological and Design Arguments for the existnce of God. But my own detailed examination of all these arguments reveal that all the contradictions and inconsistencies in them do not necessarly undermine the logical and quantitative possibility of God, given that we were originally prepared to admit the possibility of a 'SYSTEMATIC PROCEDURAL GOD'. That is, if a procedural God were innitially admitted, then it may no longer be sufficient to think of a magical God that hurriedly created the world in seven days and dumped it on us in its current chaotic state and left us to get on with it. If God is following a procedure, and schematically and patiently doing so, then the seven-day creation is no longer sufficient for the PROPER and CLEAR Explanation of God. For there is nothing which logically rules out a seven-day creation being a seven-billion-years creation. For all we know, God may still be creating us and the wider world inclusive!
NOTE: This is what prompted me in recent years to formulate the 'PRINCIPLE OF CONTINUING CAUSATION' to reverse the direction of all the arguments invloved from the direction of inconsistency to the direction of consistency. My main interest in all this is the logical preservation of the Idea of God. Resulting from all this, I am now fundamentally claiming that not only is God compatible with logic but also God is analytically indestructible, at least until further notice! God must subsequently (and not necessarily immediately) bring the product of His/Her/Its creation to a perfect end.
I'll post a little of what I posted in another topic in PF. Hope it makes some sense, been thinking of this for a few days so far.
Change Constant and Order + Chaos Principle
The universe must follow the change constant rule which is governed by Order and Chaos. Which states that all existence must constantly change and do it in the most orderly way possible. But when the choices are limited to where all possible choices have chaotic results, the orderly way would be to choose the lesser chaotic choice.
Big Bang is where many believe our universe began but it is just another part of the change constant and order + chaos principle. Something can only change so much before it changes into something that it already was. The orderly thing for all existence is to unify as a singular being or existence. But to do so would take a long time in our measurements of time because this must be achieved while avoiding chaos. But once absolute order is achieved change constant and order + chaos priciple still applies. That is why the most orderly time of existence is followed by the most chaotic time of existence (Big Bang). Absolute order has no lesser chaotic choice because no order is else where so change constant forces absolute order into absolute chaos. So then the singular existence is no more and order is a part of the rules again in this infinite existence.
No beginning and no end would mean creation is impossible.
Just because we manipulate the order of something that has always existed doesn't mean creation was involved.
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