Japan vs China

[Dagenais]

From TSN (http://www.tsn.ca/soccer/news_Story.asp?ID=94091)


Chinese fans harassed the Japanese team through much of the tournament as they vented resentment for Japan's brutal invasion of China during the Second World War. On Saturday night, as at earlier matches, Chinese fans booed while the Japanese national anthem was played.


Japan's sports daily, Suponichi, plastered a full-page photo of the celebrating team across its front page, declaring that the team's exploits ``Silenced the jeers of 65,000 people.''

I understand that this is soccer and that soccer fans are known to do extremely crazy things but this is getting very personal.

Japan should really watch what they say in their newspapers, as in, don't provoke China. China, or at least the Chinese fans should hold their temper and realize it's a soccer game.

Obviously, the Chinese are still angry about the WWII incidents, and I don't blame them. However, the Japanese embassy in Beijing had to be sealed off.

Riot cops are not uncommon after big soccer matches, but many Japanese fans were unable to leave and fights with the police occured.

Do you think this will amount to anything bigger? What will happen in the next Asia cup? :uhh:

Note:, this belongs in World Affairs because it is an affair involving China and Japan, two Countries in this World, involving previous world affairs. It's sports, but still...

[jimmy p]

Probably the same thing will happen in the next Asia Cup. It has been running for a while now and there is always an animosity between countries like that. Take Turkey and England. Great football hatred there. Or England and Germany, as the old chant goes "Two world wars and one world cup". It's football, and hooligans are everywhere across the world giving the beautiful game a bad name.

[Dagenais]

Probably the same thing will happen in the next Asia Cup. It has been running for a while now and there is always an animosity between countries like that. Take Turkey and England. Great football hatred there. Or England and Germany, as the old chant goes "Two world wars and one world cup". It's football, and hooligans are everywhere across the world giving the beautiful game a bad name.

I'm not a soccer fan, so I wouldn't know.

However, do those Countries throw racist comments, and attack their own police?

[jimmy p]

Oh yeah, it happens all the time. There was a period when England was having trouble with eastern European countries because they had black players, and the Eastern bloc fans would make monkey noises every time they came near the crowd. All fans seem to attack the police, and most of the abuse is probably due to racism which can cause the fights.

[Saint]

We hate japan because she killed many chinese in World War II.
They are barbaric.

[Civilian2]

I supported China to win the Asia Cup at first. I've lived there whilst studying the language and am quite familiar with the place.

After seeing the treatment of Japanese team at the hands of Chinese fans I dumped my support of China immediately and cheered on Japan for all I was worth. They deserved to win after having to play their matches in such hostile conditions. They showed alot of character to instead of crumble, plug away and emerge with the cup.

Surely the current generation of Japanese people should not be blamed for their ancestor's faults? Holding a grudge is one thing, as is not forgetting the past- but I've lost counts of howmany times when I was in China a Chinese person would irrationally spout hatred of the Japanese people. It's one hell of a grudge I tell you. Dont' get we wrong, I totally condemn the actions of WWII and the pain and suffering that China and the Chinese people were subjected to, but if you encounter the irrational babble believe me, it comes across pretty immature at this stage.

[Prometheus]

We hate japan because she killed many chinese in World War II.

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.

Forgive me for disbelieving your claim to speak for all Chinese.

They are barbaric.
It is always easier to cry about others. China, of course, has never acted so barbaric in its history, has it.

[selfAdjoint]

Let's just accept up front that all nations are barbaric at times and move on from there, shall we?

[Nereid]

I supported China to win the Asia Cup at first. I've lived there whilst studying the language and am quite familiar with the place.

After seeing the treatment of Japanese team at the hands of Chinese fans I dumped my support of China immediately and cheered on Japan for all I was worth. They deserved to win after having to play their matches in such hostile conditions. They showed alot of character to instead of crumble, plug away and emerge with the cup.

Surely the current generation of Japanese people should not be blamed for their ancestor's faults? Holding a grudge is one thing, as is not forgetting the past- but I've lost counts of howmany times when I was in China a Chinese person would irrationally spout hatred of the Japanese people. It's one hell of a grudge I tell you. Dont' get we wrong, I totally condemn the actions of WWII and the pain and suffering that China and the Chinese people were subjected to, but if you encounter the irrational babble believe me, it comes across pretty immature at this stage.Where did you study? My impression is that the intensity of feeling varies greatly from place to place in China. Did you have a chance to listen to some of the older generation's personal stories of their time under Japanese occupation?

Saint: which province in China is your home?

There's a serious issue here - how does a community deal with horrors like the rape of Nanjing, Rwanda, Bosnia, Palestine? How do individuals 'get over' the rage, bitterness, hatred?

From what little I've read, some things seem to help (e.g. the Truth & Reconcilliation activities in South Africa, restitution by perpetrators such Germany after WW II). Re Japan and China (and also Japan and Korea), it would seem that sincere statements of apology would go a long way, as would greater accuracy in the history texts which Japanese schoolkids study, and a more conciliatory approach than honouring convicted war criminals.

[Prometheus]

My impression is that the intensity of feeling varies greatly from place to place in China.
There is another factor at work. In China, it is not considered poor behavior to cheer wildly for the home team and jeer loudly at the opposing team. Claiming that the reason to jeer Japan is due to an act of history is not necessarily an accurate statement.

[Civilian2]

Perhaps. I suppose there are many factors to consider. I don know that at the Uni I studied at though, the Japanese students were advised to pretend they were Korean to avoid possible troubles in the country.

I studied.. wait for it... at Nanjing University. So I suppose I was in an extreme place to witness the ill feeling.

I agree about reconciliation though. Problem is, I understand the Japanese still deny certain units during that war that carried out gruesome experiments etc on Chinese people. Furthermore, their school textbooks, are a long way off teaching the younger generations the terible nature of that part of their history. So yes, I agree that some degree of pissed offfedness (for lack of a better word) is warranted.

But at the end of the day, the way I've seen alot of Chinese people refer to Japanese does not separate past from present. A thing that most people I know have managed to do with Germany.

[Dagenais]

It is always easier to cry about others. China, of course, has never acted so barbaric in its history, has it.

Would you like to gave us an example where China attacked another Country, raping their people, cutting their heads off and killing 300,000 people? Think hard before you reply to this. Make sure you find an event that has just as many people killed from another Country - just as cruely too. Since you claim that China has been just as barbaric, you should be able to back-up your claims.

What's even worse is that some right-wing organizations in Japan claim this never happened. Sick and disgusting. Doing something like that and not having the balls to admit it.

[Prometheus]

Think hard before you reply to this. Make sure you find an event that has just as many people killed from another Country - just as cruely too. Since you claim that China has been just as barbaric, you should be able to back-up your claims.
Oh. Your conditions are so intimidating. Can I back up my claims? What a difficult challenge. Even though you tell me to think hard, perhaps a few examples off the top of my head might suffice.

I notice that you say they must be killed from another country, thereby ruling out domestic examples such as Qin Shi-Huang, the first emperor of China, who cut off hundreds and hundreds of thousands of heads at a time, many times. He once cut off 400,000 heads, after they had surrendered. Do you consider this sufficiently cruel as to be on a par for cruelty? I don't know why you disallow domestic examples, however, since China's domestic cruelty many, many times over the millennia should be fair game. Perhaps as well when you say "another" country, you are ruling out Taiwan, where Chiang Kai-Shek killed large numbers of locals, stole their country, and relegated the survivors to second rate citizens for a generation. I don't think that he cut off their heads, however.

Would you like to gave us an example where China attacked another Country, raping their people, cutting their heads off and killing 300,000 people?
You are using absolute numbers and specific methods of cruelty. Is that really fair? Isn't proportional numbers of people and equivalent methods sufficient for you?

How about Vietnam? How about Tibet? How about Mongolia?

Are you asking me this question because you really do not know how incredibly cruel and ruthless China has been to its enemies on many occasions over the millennia, or because you want to knitpick and say that China's incredible cruelty to its own people, to Mongolia, to Tibet, etc. was not quite as bad as Nanjing, and therefore should not be considered significant?

[Prometheus]

What's even worse is that some right-wing organizations in Japan claim this never happened. Sick and disgusting. Doing something like that and not having the balls to admit it.
I think that your response is extremely unwarranted. Are you Chinese?

Do you think that the Americans teach in schools that germ warfare was used against the Indians? Do you think that the Australians teach what they did to the Aborigines? Do you think that China teaches that their "first emperor", Qin Shi-Huang, for all of his wonderful achievements and significant contributions, was a ruthless and extremely curel and brutal destroyer of people?

Yes, I think that while your sentiment might be good, that your words here are uncalled for, unless you are Chinese and old enough to have lived through the event in question.

[Dagenais]

Are you Chinese?



Are you Japanese?


Do you think that the Americans teach in schools that germ warfare was used against the Indians? Do you think that the Australians teach what they did to the Aborigines? Do you think that China teaches that their "first emperor", Qin Shi-Huang, for all of his wonderful achievements and significant contributions, was a ruthless and extremely curel and brutal destroyer of people?


Japan has had a history of completely dyning their faults in World War 2.

A reason why the movie Pearl Harbor in Japan mentioned little about Japans attack, instead of a love story (http://www.usatoday.com/life/movies/pearl-harbor/2001-05-30-japan-reaction.htm)

If the movie portrays Japan in a negative way," he says, "it won't be a hit."

What a surprise! I guess the Japanese have absolutely no problem ignoring their history!

The Americans and Germans don't deny their faults in World War II. The US will teach about slave history and what they did to the Natives.

Japan has been known to cover up their history of violence and aggression.

Chiang Kai-Shek

You mean the guy who lead the war to resist Japan? The same Japan that invaded his Country and killed hundred thousands of his people in the most cruelest manner? Japan killed about 250,000 of his soldiers and you dare to mention his name in defense of Japan? Have you no shame?!

I notice that you say they must be killed from another country, thereby ruling out domestic examples

Yes. No domestic examples. He ruled from 246BC to 248. You didn't even come close to a decent comparison.

Beheading in 246BC was a lot more common than in the mid 1900's. They didn't have firearms to execute back them like the Japanese did in 1945. Sick that you can even compare the two.

Remember the gollutine, first used in 1792 to effectively kill people? They didn't have that in 246BC! But they did when Japan invaded China, but I guess they didn't give a crap.:

Wikipedia:
The basis for his recommendation is believed to have been his perception that it was a humane form of execution, contrasting with the methods used in pre-revolutionary, ancien régime France. In France, before the guillotine, members of the nobility were beheaded with a sword or axe

Sword? That sounds like what the Japanese did. I guess they didn't care about being humane. Then again, they did rape their victums before killing them. Of course, to you, ever Country has done something just as bad crueling killing 300,000 people.

[Prometheus]

Are you Japanese?
Very cute. I was asking because I can't understand your degree of emotion if you are not Chinese. You did not answer the question I notice.

Japan has had a history of completely dyning their faults in World War 2.
I agree, but this is completely beside the point of my last post.

The Americans and Germans don't deny their faults in World War II. The US will teach about slave history and what they did to the Natives.
You use the future tense. Good for you. If you used the present or past tense, I would not believe you. You say teach, as in school. You are wrong.

Yes. No domestic examples. He ruled from 246BC to 248. You didn't even come close to a decent comparison.
I am sorry that you are so blind. As well, both of your dates are incorrect. You rule out all domestic examples on the basis of the one that I gave? Mao did not kill many of his own people either, did he? Yes, he does not count either, I am sure. Or the many examples between these two people. You didn't even come close to a decent point to provide an exampe for.

Beheading in 246BC was a lot more common than in the mid 1900's. They didn't have firearms to execute back them like the Japanese did in 1945. Sick that you can even compare the two.
Your response is sick, I do agree. You are not making sense. I provide you an example where more than your 300,000 were beheaded at a single time, and you pretend to be sick, what a joke, at the mention of the example that you disregard. Objective, aren't you.

Remember the gollutine, first used in 1792 to effectively kill people? They didn't have that in 246BC! But they did when Japan invaded China, but I guess they didn't give a crap.:
I fail to understand your last phrase, as it is completely unrelated to your earlier sentences.

That sounds like what the Japanese did. I guess they didn't care about being humane. Then again, they did rape their victums before killing them.
I have not once denied that what the Japanese did was horrible. What I did say is that the incdent was not an isolated event in the history of mankind.

Of course, to you, ever Country has done something just as bad crueling killing 300,000 people.
You have not commented on most of my examples. Why not? Do you accept them or reject them? To you, Japan is the ultimate in evil, and the behavior of no other country need be examined. You seem very emotional on this issue, and quite irrational. Given this unfortunate fact, there is no point in continuing this discussion and let you rant on.

[Dagenais]

I was asking because I can't understand your degree of emotion if you are not Chinese.

What kind of screwed up logic is that?

Cacausian Americans have felt sorrow for African-American slaves. Do they have to be black slaves to show emotion?

You say teach, as in school. You are wrong.



They do teach about American slavery in the United States. In 8th grade United States History as well as in 11th Grade Unitied States History.

As well, both of your dates are incorrect.[/quote

He was still a King during the date I mentioned. And the dates don't really matter - China still didn't have guns during his time.

From Wikipedia.org (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)

He reigned from 246 BCE to 238 BCE as king of Qin under a regent, to 221 BCE without a regent, and as emperor of China from 221 BCE to 210 BCE.

[quote]You rule out all domestic examples on the basis of the one that I gave

I rule out domestic examples because China isn't harming any country besides itself. The fact that you are so focused on domestic examples show that you cannot find a decent event in history where China invaded a country and cruely killed hundreds of thousands.

Japan in a show of extreme aggression, has invaded a country and killed 300,000 people.

I fail to understand your last phrase, as it is completely unrelated to your earlier sentences.



It demonstrates that the Japanese could have used less crueler methods to fight its war against China, as they were available.

However, these methods were not available in 200BCE.

I provide you an example where more than your 300,000 were beheaded at a single time, and you pretend to be sick, what a joke, at the mention of the example that you disregard. Objective, aren't you.



So you're saying that getting beheaded was more common in the 1940's than the years BCE? I'm not justifying the deaths Qin Shi caused, but it wasn't like there were other ways back then to kill people. He couldn't use firearms like Japan could have.

Getting beheaded is the most unhonorable way to die. Japan new that, and that's why they killed using that specific method.

You realized that perfectly, but instead accused me of "being sick". Stop wasting my time with your inane nonsense.

You're the one sick and desperate enough to use Chiang Kai-Shek as a defense for Japan. After they killed hundred thousands of his soldiers too. That's damn sick.

Your response is sick, I do agree.

No, that wouldn't be agreeing with me. Maybe you should read that part of my post again, you seem confused. Either you misunderstood or you're using an extremely sad tactic to carry whatever point you don't have.

You have not commented on most of my examples.

Most of them are not examples of China attacking another country and killing hundreds of thousands in a cruel manner, and yet I've replied to two of your examples. I asked for certain examples, and you didn't give them. You're lucky I bothered replying at all.

If you're not going to make decent comparisons, I'm not going to bother with a reply.

[Prometheus]

What kind of screwed up logic is that?
My, you sure are touchy. Not very eloquent, but certainly touchy.

Cacausian Americans have felt sorrow for African-American slaves. Do they have to be black slaves to show emotion?
Your response is far beyond showing emotion. You are irrational to the point of blindness.

They do teach about American slavery in the United States. In 8th grade United States History as well as in 11th Grade Unitied States History.
Sure. In detail, I bet. Tell me, based on your education at school, on what tribes did the U.S. use germ warfare. Just the examples that you learned about in school will do.

I rule out domestic examples because China isn't harming any country besides itself.
I said that they were cruel. It was you who listed all of the specific conditions. How does harming their own people make them any less cruel?

The fact that you are so focused on domestic examples show that you cannot find a decent event in history where China invaded a country and cruely killed hundreds of thousands.
You are a joke. I provided a number of examples. That means more that one, in case you don't understand. You have yet to respond to my examples. In fact, this is twice now that you have ignored them. Go back and read my post. You are the one who is so focused on your slant that you forgot to read my post.

Japan in a show of extreme aggression, has invaded a country and killed 300,000 people.
Thank you for sharing this, for the thirtieth time. You need not do this, since I read your posts. You are the one who has not read my posts.

However, these methods were not available in 200BCE.
Another complete misunderstanding on your part. Complete misunderstanding. Cutting off a head and taking it back to show the leader is not the easiest way to kill people. Stabbing them and leaving the bodies with their heads attached is easier. The heads were removed as an act of cruelty.

So you're saying that getting beheaded was more common in the 1940's than the years BCE? I'm not justifying the deaths Qin Shi caused, but it wasn't like there were other ways back then to kill people. He couldn't use firearms like Japan could have.
Your use of the name Qin Shi tells me that you know nothing of that era, as this is not a valid way to phrase his name. No surprise here. Are you serious? There was no other way to kill people back then but to ensure that the heads were removed from the bodies. Yeah, right. Read the garbage that you are spouting.

Getting beheaded is the most unhonorable way to die. Japan new that, and that's why they killed using that specific method.
Earth to Dagonais. If you are saying that Japan was cruel, I agree with you. If you say that their act was the cruelest in history, your complete lack of understanding is showing through.

You realized that perfectly, but instead accused me of "being sick".
I merely repeated the garbagge that you were spouting. If you don't like to hear it, then don't say it first.

Stop wasting my time with your inane nonsense.
Look, boy. You are acting like a child. This garbage that you spout may work with other boys your age. If you would learn to think, and to read my posts, and to quit acting like a baby, then perhaps you wouldn't write this baby talk.

Most of them are not examples of China attacking another country and killing hundreds of thousands in a cruel manner, and yet I've replied to two of your examples.
Which 2? I only see your response to Qin Shi-Huang.

I asked for certain examples, and you didn't give them.
You asked for a highly limited set of conditions, as though you have a lock on what accounts for cruelty. I responsed with several examples. You ignored all but one example, and pretend that you have responded to all of them.

You're lucky I bothered replying at all.
My but you really are a little child. Look at the baby talk that you come up with. Please don't reply any more. Go cry to your mother. She might take this baby talk from you. What a cry baby.

If you're not going to make decent comparisons, I'm not going to bother with a reply.
If you are going to ignore my examples, then please don't reply. What about Taiwan, Vietnam, Tibet, and Mongolia?

Are you for real?

[Prometheus]

You mean the guy who lead the war to resist Japan? The same Japan that invaded his Country and killed hundred thousands of his people in the most cruelest manner?
I missed this before. So, you did speak to a second of my examples. You did manage to avoid my entire argument, and instead respond by showing your complete lack of understanding, and by side-stepping the entire point of our discussion. "lead the war to resist Japan" What a joke you are.

You say that Chiang Kai-Shek lead the war to resist Japan. From this, I understand that you do not know much about Chinese history. Your first sentence above is a complete mistake on your part. I suggest that you read something about this era of history.

Japan killed about 250,000 of his soldiers and you dare to mention his name in defense of Japan?
Your melodrama is exciting, but your lack of any understanding of history is excceded only by the foolish way that you phrase your argument. You really know nothing about this era in Chinese history either, do you. I notice that you completely avoided the entire point that I made anyway, about the cruelty of Chiang Kai-Shek toward the native Taiwanese. Or, do you believe that they welcomed him as a hero.

Have you no shame?!
Only a little child could come up with such a childish phrase. Get a life. Do you really think that this gibberish will be an effective way to hide the fact that you have ignored the entire meat of my point, and instead produced claims as ridiculous as they are irrelevant to the argument that we are holding?

[Nereid]

Let's just accept up front that all nations are barbaric at times and move on from there, shall we?Dagenais, Prometheus: the pages of history are soaked with blood and tears, and strong cases can be made against a great many nations and peoples, perhaps all.

Wrt strong anti-Japanese feelings among some Chinese, given that the 1930s and 1940s are fairly recent, it's perhaps not surprising that some have such feelings.

However, many others throughout the world have also suffered greatly in the same period, and more recently; some of those who've suffered seem to have been able to move on (e.g. in South Africa), others still harbour deep feelings even after more than a century (e.g. Armenians). Some say that the common thread is the willingness of the perpetrators of the horror to acknowledge their actions, and to do so sincerely.

Do you have some constructive suggestions? Are you aware of other methods of resolution? If so, which were successful.

[Galileo]

I think it will take at least a generation before the hatred against a country who commited warcrimes will diminish. National trauma's are easier to overcome than personal ones.
As time goes on, the people who have served in WWII will die and there will be no one left who is responsible, and no one left who you can blame.
To me, it seems silly to be angry at a country. You can only get angry at people.
In the Netherlands, hatred against Germany (or Germans) is fading quickly. Especially among the bright young people who have their eyes on the future.
There are still (very few I'm sure) Germans who deny the events of the holocaust as it is recorded. These people are simply fools.
Hopefully the Japanese government will fully admit and accept the atrocities they have committed and teach it to the children/students in history, so they can learn from it.
I guess that is all they can do. I surely resent the Japanese government for denying any historical facts, but I see no resolve in jeering at Japanese sports teams, or
booh-ing when their national anthem is played. The soccer team isn't responsible for Japan's action during WWII or their government's decisions, just as I am not responisble for the extinction of the dodo.

[Prometheus]

the pages of history are soaked with blood and tears, and strong cases can be made against a great many nations and peoples, perhaps all.
Most definitely.

Wrt strong anti-Japanese feelings among some Chinese, given that the 1930s and 1940s are fairly recent, it's perhaps not surprising that some have such feelings.
It is not at all surprising. There are many reasons for this, as it is a complex situation with complex human reactions involved. The closer that people are to such event, in this case young people are only removed by a single generation, the more prone to anti-whoeveritwas feelings the people are.

[russ_watters]

However, many others throughout the world have also suffered greatly in the same period, and more recently; some of those who've suffered seem to have been able to move on (e.g. in South Africa), others still harbour deep feelings even after more than a century (e.g. Armenians). Some say that the common thread is the willingness of the perpetrators of the horror to acknowledge their actions, and to do so sincerely. How about Germany? For them to have become full members of the world community so soon after WWII (really, by the early '50s) is extrordinary.

[Nereid]

How about Germany? For them to have become full members of the world community so soon after WWII (really, by the early '50s) is extrordinary.Indeed. Perhaps someone who knows the relevant history well can tell us what Germany did in the way of things like restitution, sincere apologies, openness about recent history (e.g. contents of school history textbooks), and so on.

[Prometheus]

Perhaps someone who knows the relevant history well can tell us what Germany did in the way of things like restitution, sincere apologies, openness about recent history (e.g. contents of school history textbooks), and so on.
How relevant do you think that these two situations are?

Germany started a war, was devasted by war, lost the war, was assisted by foreign countries, and rejoined the European civiization of which it has always been a part.

I believe that this situation is far more conducive to forgiveness and return to the group for Germany than the situation in China. There is far more to consider than simply the fact that one country committed some atrocities on another country. The context is also extremely important, and it is very differen from Germany, in my opinion.

Could you explain your motives for your recent couple of posts here?

[Nereid]

Could you explain your motives for your recent couple of posts here?Why is it that in some cases people - individuals, groups, 'countries' - can move on from the horrors of war etc? And in others, they can't? I'd like to know, and I've found that PF members are able to answer quite a range of difficult questions, so why not ask here too? Perhaps, when next I go to China, I could float some of the ideas I've picked up here?

Why do you ask?

[Prometheus]

Why is it that in some cases people - individuals, groups, 'countries' - can move on from the horrors of war etc? And in others, they can't?
In some cases the extenuating circumastances are more conducive to forgiveness and getoveritness than in other cases.

Perhaps, when next I go to China, I could float some of the ideas I've picked up here?
Have you been to China, and are you planning to go again? Where did you go?

I think that a good idea that you migh float is to talk with govenrment propaganda officials, and suggest that let the flames simmer, rather than stoke them.

Why do you ask?
Because I think that the situations are extremely different. There are valuable lessons to be learned by analyzing success stories, I agree. However, I don't think that this thread was ever intended to be an attempt to solve this problem, which is nevertheless not possble here and now, in my opinion.

[jimmy p]

Ok, this is about a China vs. Japan football match that happened a couple of weeks back. The blood-feud between the fans is over. I dont even think football hooligans would go into as much detail as you guys!

[outsider]

i've read this whole discussion... and it's evident that Dagenais and Prometheus are biased... either due to pride or denial or of the like... evading questions and sidestepping issues just like real politicians... this is how we go to war... it's very funny actually.... hahahahahah.....

Dagenais, you got too emotional and too defensive... why don't you just admit that you are chinese already? There should be no shame about representing your family. At this point whether or not you come out of the closet, it is already apparent to anyone who reads this discussion.

Prometheus, you are a skillful, winding and sidestepping debator. A person like you would probably take this as a complement, but you are simply using the fact that we are all human and make mistakes argument, which downplays an attrocious act. You are the type of perpetrator people should be aware of. The kind of lawyer that gets a killer off the hook based on technicalities of the prosecution. You are likely a slave to money, the class system, and run the rat race selling your soul. Hahaha... youre such a funny lil beach. But you think your so clever. lmao.

As a person who was a bully, I can tell you that there is no virtue in it. I have since been wronged and bullied in return and now know what it means to be on the other side of the coin. We forgive convicts who show remorse and have served time. We find it easier to forgive people who repay for the damages they have caused. Time heals all, so they say... but ask one who has been wronged and they will tell you that they may forgive but forgetting is a totally different story. I can only imagine how many people out there may have it out for me. The list is long and I'm sorry... but for some f-d up reason, I can't swallow my pride. Shame on me. In a strange way, ironically - i am a Jap.

Prometheus, attacking one's education, background, or writing style does not take away from the fact that a crime was committed and sincere apologies have not been made.

I have friends of all races. I have friends who are mixed Chi-panese, and friends who are in Jap-Chink relationships. We all get along, not like how nerds getalong, but like we treat each other like family and speak openly about our feelings. We do not judge and think which race is right, we actually try to understand why things happened the way they did. My Japanese friends do think that something bad did happen, but my Chinese friends don't hold it against them because this was a classic Romeo & Juliet scenerio.

[Locrian]

You don't have to be Chinese to be disgusted by the way Japan has behaved since WW2 with respect to their treatment of WW2 history. You could just be reasonably informed and have a sense of concience.

[sid_galt]

I rule out domestic examples because China isn't harming any country besides itself.

Cruelty of a country isn't measured in how many countries it invaded or how many foreigners it killed. By doing that, one is accepting the premise that a country is a fundamental unit, that the individuals of a country are inseparable from each other which is wrong.

Cruelty is cruelty whether it is done by a dictator to the people of a country or by one countries people to another countries' people.

Hitler killed 6 million jews. Many of them were germans. Would you honestly say that what Hitler did to the jews who were germans was not cruelty?


Millions have died under Communist slavery in China and free thought is still censored there. If you want to talk in terms of numbers, some Chinese have drained a lot more blood than people of many other countries.

[kaos]

Cruelty of a country isn't measured in how many countries it invaded or how many foreigners it killed. By doing that, one is accepting the premise that a country is a fundamental unit, that the individuals of a country are inseparable from each other which is wrong.

Cruelty is cruelty whether it is done by a dictator to the people of a country or by one countries people to another countries' people.

Hitler killed 6 million jews. Many of them were germans. Would you honestly say that what Hitler did to the jews who were germans was not cruelty?


Millions have died under Communist slavery in China and free thought is still censored there. If you want to talk in terms of numbers, some Chinese have drained a lot more blood than people of many other countries.

Errr excuse me , but how did u come up with this?????

[outsider]

Suppose you have a child. Suppose you do not believe in physical punishment. However, your neighbour sees your child doing something that he sees as morally wrong and thinks he is doing you a favor when he smacks your kid upside the head.

Right / Wrong?

Suppose your kid goes to private school, and the teacher smacks your kid upside the head.

Right / Wrong?

Policeman, busts your kid up real good.

Right / Wrong?

As a parent, we have the right to teach our own children the way we see fit. (This is an old skool way of thinking). In today's world, we are constantly under the supervision of the law & the government. In most cases, they provide good guidance, but there are times when they are wrong. (movie: "I Am Sam")

The United Nations is a political venue for governing governments.

Each country has their own rules, regulations, practices and policies. This is no different than a protestants & catholics. All originated w/ white people from the same continent, using the same rule book, but completely different interpretations.

We all have our own problems and shortfalls. Sometimes it's better to leave each other's kids alone and let their parents do the parenting. Who asked you anyway?

[outsider]

Millions have died under Communist slavery in China and free thought is still censored there. If you want to talk in terms of numbers, some Chinese have drained a lot more blood than people of many other countries.

I don't understand why people make such bold statements.

"some" Chinese have drained "a lot more" blood than people of "many other" countries. Unbelievable statement. Where did you go wrong? - nowhere. Where did you go right? - nowhere. What is your point? - Chinese are bad in the big scheme of things because you think so. Then why don't you just say so? :biggrin: Go do something instead of noncontributing the good of all and taking up bytes on a server.

[The Smoking Man]

I don't understand why people make such bold statements.

"some" Chinese have drained "a lot more" blood than people of "many other" countries. Unbelievable statement. Where did you go wrong? - nowhere. Where did you go right? - nowhere. What is your point? - Chinese are bad in the big scheme of things because you think so. Then why don't you just say so? :biggrin: Go do something instead of noncontributing the good of all and taking up bytes on a server.Sid is actually the type of individual who gets suckered by books and statistics as per my first post under the 'Source vs. Content' thread.

He is actually genuinely believing what he is posting and the fact that the Chinese 'deny' it is merely a cover-up to him.

Well it has to be 'true' because The Black Book of Communism and Roderick MacFarquhar say it is true and they are published by Harvard and Oxford press respectively.

He'll never find out that his information is erroneous because he read it in those books, he has no reason to doubt it and he certainly won't be purchasing a new copy of those books any time soon... And so the myth gets perpetuated.

[Smurf]

Okay, does the black book of communism actually exist? I've heard several references to that, is it an actual book? Or just a figure of speech?

[The Smoking Man]

Okay, does the black book of communism actually exist? I've heard several references to that, is it an actual book? Or just a figure of speech?http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0674076087/104-7335484-7967968?v=glance

[Daminc]

Just to comment on the obvious :rolleyes:

Winners write history. Different generations rewrite history. I doubt there is any historical references that are complete and unbiased.

All major countries have crimes of the past (and present) and will probably continue to do so.

Americans butched most of the indiginous population when they expanded. Britian butched people all over the world when they extended their Empire. Russia, China, Germany, France etc etc etc have all been bad people at one time or another.

If Japan want to clean the slate of there past mistakes and start afresh then so be it. If China want to remember to past to honour the sacrifices then so be it. What's the problem?

[russ_watters]

TSM, could you be more specific? Are you saying that things like "The Great Leap Forward" didn't happen or are you just disagreeing about how many millions of people died? Does it really make any difference if it was 10 million or 20 million?

[entropy+time=fun]

I personally find it quite disgusting, that the chinese joke and always tend to take an extra inch from Japan. These two nations are very close geographically but they argue and boo over football (i am english) especially when it comes to such patriotism. I have never seen or heard of another country booing during another countries national anthem, this could have been a very major blow to the citizens of Japan those who were standing in the crowd and also those watchinng from their houses. Its appalling really...


Thankyou,

entropy+time=fun

[outsider]

I personally find it quite disgusting, that the chinese joke and always tend to take an extra inch from Japan.

you personally find it disgustng... so who are you? and what chinese joke are you referring? and what is this extra inch you speak of?

These two nations are very close geographically but they argue and boo over football (i am english) especially when it comes to such patriotism.

I have no idea what your point is here. Is there a thought to be considered? - it appears to be "neighbors should not disagree"... if this is your point, then you obviously live in a box of idealisms... are you still in high school?

I have never seen or heard of another country booing during another countries national anthem, this could have been a very major blow to the citizens of Japan those who were standing in the crowd and also those watchinng from their houses. Its appalling really...


Although booing certainly isn't the higher ground, it does not surprise me at all. If you are a football fan, you should know that during World Cup 2002 (the most recent one), when england played Argentina there was booing from the english fans. I hope you are unappalled.

As far as "this could have been a very major blow to the citizens of Japan those who were standing in the crowd and also those watching from their houses."- Firstly, this statement cannot be proven.... secondly, why would you even say this?

If it sounds like i'm getting personal, I apologize... but if you are not going to advance knowledge or the discussion, then please say nothing. Sidebar opinions should still be supported with real facts or experiences. What would happen if I said Canadians or English Suck? This would become a messy place with all sorts of ugly useless bantor. That is the point I want to make about your post. Its plain thoughtless.

Do yourself a favor and think about what you say before you say it. At this point you don't make a very good football fan, and do not represent england very well. If I were english, I would want you to shut up and stop embarassing my country.

[The Smoking Man]

TSM, could you be more specific? Are you saying that things like "The Great Leap Forward" didn't happen or are you just disagreeing about how many millions of people died? Does it really make any difference if it was 10 million or 20 million?You have not checked the data as presented, I see.

What happened is that the whole observation of history is skewed.

Instead of a spike of deaths now during 'the great leap forward', as the site observes:

The relevant figure is 4.5 per 1000 as is commonly available in publications by the enemies of the Great Leap in power in China today. Indeed, MacFarquhar himself lists the correct figure in a table on page five of the third volume of his book series.

The correct figure for 1960 and other years is listed in common Chinese statistical sources. Using that figure and the others for 1960-2, one would have to extrapolate to arrive at the often-used 30 million figure of bourgeois sources. Just as easily, one could point out without extrapolating the following: 1) The death rate in 1959 was better than in 1952 and about equal to 1953. 2) The death rate in 1961 was even better. 3) The death rate in 1962 was the best seen in the People's Republic of China up to that date. It was only the year 1960 which was worse than any year since Liberation in 1949. If radical politics and collectivization mostly caused the famine, then why did it not hit hardest in 1958 and 1959 in the commune upsurge and instead chose the worst weather year when communes were already dismantled or being dismantled?

A 1984 Associated Press (AP) article against the Great Leap ran again in October, 1999 in the South China Morning Post for the 50th anniversary of the Liberation of China in 1949. Significantly, the article admitted what MIM has been saying -- that the figure of 30 million starved in the Great Leap is only possible by assuming normal birth rates during a tumultuous period where people worked day and night and studied in public meetings in between.

"Basing their calculations on the 1953 population of 583 million and the 1964 total of 695 million, and on normal fertility rates, they concluded that infant mortality and other deaths were much higher than officially reported."(2) In other words, your statement just went on to prove that you are still willing to attribute deaths to the Great Leap Forward that are actually not out of the ordinary for any other year in that period.

The death rate was proven to be greater in 1952 and actually showed a trend of IMPROVEMENT in the years of the Great Leap Forward and the additional deaths which were attributed to natural calamity in subsequent years (Previously denied because of the sheer numbers stated in MacFarquhar's book) are now more feasable.

Now you tossed out two numbers ... "10 million or 20 million" ... are you deliberately trying to ignore the fact that the error is NOT of a magnitude of 2 as you imply but a magnitude of 10?

His computations were based on 4.5 deaths per 100 where his own charts state that the were 4.5 deaths per 1000.

MacFarquhar claims a 'worst case scenario' of 30 million. Well, if you now compute the deaths as 4.5 in 1000 instead of 4.5 in 100 you would come out with a 'worst case scenario' of 3 million wouldn't you?

The population in 1964 is recorded as 695 million that's .4317% additional deaths added to the standard number shown in the trends.

In plain terms, his numbers made a claim that there were 45 deaths per 1000 which is indeed terrible.

The reality is there were 4.5 deaths per 1000.

Now go here: http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0004395.html and subtract the birth rate from the death rates.

Surprise!!! :surprised

[The Smoking Man]

I personally find it quite disgusting, that the chinese joke and always tend to take an extra inch from Japan. These two nations are very close geographically but they argue and boo over football (i am english) especially when it comes to such patriotism. I have never seen or heard of another country booing during another countries national anthem, this could have been a very major blow to the citizens of Japan those who were standing in the crowd and also those watchinng from their houses. Its appalling really...


Thankyou,

entropy+time=funUmmm ... English fans have been banned from going to the continent.

English fans have been caught with wood with spikes driven through one end to club opposing fans.

I believe we call them 'YOBS'.

You were saying?

[DM]

English fans have been caught with wood with spikes driven through one end to club opposing fans.

Indeed, in support to your point we only have to cite Turkey as the city of central havoc between English 'yobs' and other footbal fans.

[Dagenais]

Wow, I was just browsing this site to see if there was an interesting discussion about the Russian submarine crisis. Then, I see this post ressurected.

I have never seen or heard of another country booing during another countries national anthem

You're joking me right? This happens all the time in soccer. European fans have even been know to throw racist remarks at black players.

Quebec shouts and 'boos' the Star Spangled Banner at hockey games all the time.

[sid_galt]

I don't understand why people make such bold statements.

"some" Chinese have drained "a lot more" blood than people of "many other" countries. Unbelievable statement. Where did you go wrong? - nowhere. Where did you go right? - nowhere. What is your point? - Chinese are bad in the big scheme of things because you think so. Then why don't you just say so? :biggrin: Go do something instead of noncontributing the good of all and taking up bytes on a server.

My point was that in comparision to the West there are many more people out there in the East who have killed and slaughtered a lot more than the West ever has.

And the Chinese aren't bad because I think so. They are bad because history and reality say so.

[sid_galt]

The United Nations is a political venue for governing governments.

It is more of an organization that the leaders of a country have made a country join than a political venue for governing governments.


Each country has their own rules, regulations, practices and policies. This is no different than a protestants & catholics. All originated w/ white people from the same continent, using the same rule book, but completely different interpretations.


Rules of law should be based on principles and not on the arbitrary whims of the majority or the ruler or the dictator or the Senate. If the country violates that rights of man then it is morally wrong whether the majority agrees with it or not.

[The Smoking Man]

Rules of law should be based on principles and not on the arbitrary whims of the majority or the ruler or the dictator or the Senate. If the country violates that rights of man then it is morally wrong whether the majority agrees with it or not.USA, Japan?

It IS a two way street.

[The Smoking Man]

And the Chinese aren't bad because I think so. They are bad because history and reality say so. See previous post.

[Smurf]

My point was that in comparision to the West there are many more people out there in the East who have killed and slaughtered a lot more than the West ever has.
uhhhh... I disagree. WW1? Nazism? Fascism? Stalinism? The countless deaths European Imperialism caused. I don't know how historical you want to get, so I'll just include everything... The Spanish and English practically wiped out indigenous Americans who are only now beginning to numerally recover (only to have their culture destroyed). More than 20% of the world's population lived and died under the rule of the Roman Empire at it's height, and Rome didn't exactly work hard to keep people alive, or free.

[outsider]

My point was that in comparision to the West there are many more people out there in the East who have killed and slaughtered a lot more than the West ever has.

Unfortunately this thread was not a comparison between who has caused more bloodshed as that cannot be proven.

Your statement still holds no water, so even though I know what you are trying to say, you still don't make a point because your facts are not actual facts... so it's really a baseless opinion. (also remember that the east has a longer history than the west... and that many wars were fought in the east because the west has always tried to attack and conquer it's people... over, and over, and over again.)

And the Chinese aren't bad because I think so. They are bad because history and reality say so.

Hahaha... :rofl: whatever you say sid...

Regardless, this thread is about conflicts between countries. The relevance of how a country governs it's own people is outside the boundaries of this topic.

I did not disagree with you about your feelings toward China (let's remember that China & Chinese don't exactly mean the same thing, as Chinese is an ethnicity of which many (including those who live in the country) do not agree with China as a government)... however your opinion in the scheme of this thread was unecessary.

I do not support the way China has handled it's own conflicts, however Canada does not often ridicule the American civil war, nor does the US talk about the Canadian battles between upper and lower Canada... to each country and within each family, there are conflicts... but that is FAMILY BUSINESS... The my way or the highway attitude is cause for war itself... so let's just recognize that in ourselves...

[The Smoking Man]

Canada does not often ridicule the American civil war, ... They do have a penchant for mentioning that they burned the White House down during the 1812 war whenever they can... http://www.snopes.com/politics/satire/mercer.asp

[Smurf]

They do have a penchant for mentioning that they burned the White House down during the 1812 war whenever they can... http://www.snopes.com/politics/satire/mercer.asp
RICK MERCER FOR PM!!!

besides, that was an international war, doesn't disprove his point.

[outsider]

They do have a penchant for mentioning that they burned the White House down during the 1812 war whenever they can... http://www.snopes.com/politics/satire/mercer.asp
well, 2 things in my defense:

1) I said "not often"... this whole Canadian pride thing only began since those "i am" Canadian beer commercials... and it's really not rampant among canadians... i guess it falls under a new stereotype....

2) the war of 1812 was instigated by the US... canada was pushed so they pushed back... aparently they pushed all the way to the white house and then turned back...

I wonder why no one has ever brought up the topic of manifest destiny?

[Anttech]

The Spanish and English practically wiped out indigenous Americans

hmmm... I think you mean early Americans, or Settlers, refering to English... I googled but could find any reference to the English wiping out Native Americans

[loseyourname]

hmmm... I think you mean early Americans, or Settlers, refering to English... I googled but could find any reference to the English wiping out Native Americans

They were English settlers. Or are you going to contend that the Turks responsible for the Armenian Genocide were really Armenians because they moved onto Armenian land after removing everyone?

As for the Spanish, the behavior of the Conquistadores, especially in wiping out two (count 'em) civilizations, in the Aztec and Inca, is pretty well documented. The Franciscans who followed them with their 'encomienda' system (we give you Jesus, you give us forced labor) were close behind in helping to wipe out the Natives of what is now the southwestern United States. Their missions still stand up and down the California coast - if you ever visit, I'll take you down to the one in San Francisco (names, incidentally, for St. Francis, the founder of the Franciscan order).

[Anttech]

They were English settlers. Or are you going to contend that the Turks responsible for the Armenian Genocide were really Armenians because they moved onto Armenian land after removing everyone? Nope becuase I am greek! If that means anything to you. You cant compare the Turks Genocide against the Armnenians (And greeks) to that of the Native americans.. Although both are bad, the way it happened is too different to be used as an anaogue of one another. If it was the same, would America not be part of England?

I am not contesting the Spainish, just the English side of things! When do historians first recgonise "English settlers" being Americans?

Many Many Native Americans were killed by what you would call Americans not English!

if you ever visit, I'll take you down to the one in San Francisco (names, incidentally, for St. Francis, the founder of the Franciscan order).

I'm usually in Cali once a year to visit my brother ;-)

[The Smoking Man]

Japan is still 'at it' (http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20050810/wl_asia_afp/wwiihistoryjapanwomen_050810180146) (Note: Lee Yong Su is 76 now ... Do the math ... it is 60 years since the END of the war which would have placed her at 16. Her rapes happened while she was much younger):

Former 'comfort women' demand more from Japan 60 years after WWII
Wed Aug 10, 2:01 PM ET

TOKYO (AFP) - Former "comfort women" and activists demonstrated in parts of Asia, demanding that Japan do more to compensate the former sex slaves for the imperial army before the 60th anniversary of the end of World War II.

A government-established but private fund has compensated hundreds of former sex slaves but Japan argues that bilateral treaties rule out any official payouts to individuals.

An activist group, Violence Against Women in War-Network Japan, said demonstrations were slated for 24 cities across the world Wednesday, mostly in Asia, but it did not immediately know how many went ahead.

"I am angry against both the Japanese and South Korean governments," said Lee Yong Su, 76, a former comfort woman from
South Korea who was among 200 people protesting outside parliament in Tokyo.

"The bilateral treaty they signed in 1965 sealed the question of compensation for individuals," she told AFP.

Historians say at least 200,000 young women, mostly Korean but also from Taiwan, China, the Philippines and Indonesia, were forced to serve as sex slaves in Japanese army brothels during the war.

A compensation fund was established in 1995 by a left-leaning Japanese government but it uses money collected by donations.

The fund is to be wound up in March 2007 after helping more than 360 women and determining that most other victims eligible for compensation will not come forward.

Many women remain too ashamed to discuss what happened to them. China has refused to take part in the program.

"Why should they stop paying?" Lee said. "The fund should keep paying as the victims are still suffering and they are getting older and older."

The fund provided compensation and medical benefits worth five million yen each (about 45,000 dollars) to victims from South Korea and Taiwan and 3.2 million yen to each Filipina victim. Dutch victims in what is now Indonesia were granted medical support only.

Kazuko Miyake, a Japanese activist supporting comfort women, said she had helped opposition lawmakers draft a bill to provide more compensation but it could not be considered before new elections were called on Monday.

"Our bill was abandoned as the lower house was dissolved, but we will never give up. We'll file it again in the next session," she said.

In Manila around 150 former sex slaves protested outside the Japanese embassy and near the presidential Malacanang palace Wednesday, demanding justice including an official apology.

Riot police forcibly pushed back the elderly comfort women who converged in an area near the palace, but no one was injured.

Another group of former sex slaves, wearing bright yellow dresses and headbands, trooped to the Japanese embassy and issued to a statement saying that 60 years after World War II, "justice continues to escape the victims."

Japan surrendered on August 15, 1945.

The former sex slaves carried slogans condeming Japan's war past. Some read: "Justice for all comfort women of World War II" and "Justice to all victims of military slavery."On Jan. 4 1996, the U.N. Human Rights Commission released an official report, submitted by the UN Special Rapporteur on Violence against Women by Radhika Coomaraswamy, on the wartime Sex Slavery, report by International Commision of Jurists (http://www.icj.org/news.php3?id_article=3372〈=en), Geneva Comfort Women : An Unfinished Ordeal (http://www.comfort-women.org/Unfinished.htm), and also another report by Special Rapporteur Ms. Gay J. McDougall in 1998 : Systematic Rape, Sexual Slavery and Slavery-like practices during armed conflict (http://www.hri.ca/fortherecord1998/documentation/commission/e-cn4-sub2-1998-13.htm).

The reports are founded on years investigation and recommends that Japanese government should assume state responsibility and

1. Acknowledge its violation of international law.
2. Make a public apology in writing to individual women.
3. Pay compensation to individual women.
4. Amending educational curricula to reflect true historical realities.
5. Full disclosure of related documents
6. Identify and punish, as far as possible, involved perpetrators

In April 1996, the delegate to U.N. from China, for the first time, stated that Japan should pay state compensation to the victims of Sex Slavery by Japan during WWII.

Japan also argues that individual victim cannot sue a state, and also argued that China had voluntarily give up the right of reparation from Japan in 1972 when Beijing and Japan established diplomatic ties. Although the Joint Communiqué and the Treaty have waived the state's rights to war damages, neither has ever specifically surrendered the rights of any private claims by Chinese citizens.

In fact, the obligation of States and the rights of individuals with respect to the violation of human rights cannot, as a matter of international law, be given away or extinguished by governments through peace treaty, peace agreement, amnesty or by any other means. This has been repeatedly affirmed in numerous resolutions passed by the United Nations over the years. (e.g. UN Resolution E/CN.4/SUB.2/RES/1999/16) (http://www.unhchr.ch/Huridocda/Huridoca.nsf/0811fcbd0b9f6bd58025667300306dea/e421ae865b4dbb42802567ed0047c12d?OpenDocument)

Professor Etsuro Totsuka of Kobe University in Japan has pointed out the following in his article Peace Treaty and Japan's Wartime Responsibility: Breaking the Treaty Defense (http://guywong.home.netcom.com/html/Etsuro.htm) :

1. Art. 3 of the Convention (IV) Respecting the Laws and Customs of War on Land, signed at the Hague, on 18 Oct. 1907 stipulates, "A belligerent party which violates the provisions of the said Regulations (i.e., the Regulations of Land Warfare annexed to the Convention) shall, if the case demands, be liable to pay compensation. It shall be responsible for all acts committed by persons forming part of its armed forces."

This article of the 1907 Hague Convention was understood to have been customary international law and it was succeeded by Art. 91 of the Additional Protocol to the 1949 Geneva Conventions. Japan acceded to it on Oct 21, 1953 and bound China in 1956. Therefore, It guarantees individual victims the right to compensation.

2. China is not a Party to the San Francisco Peace Treaty. Therefore, The treaty is not applicable to China.

3. The Treaty of Peace between Republic of China (i.e. Taiwan) and Japan of Apr 28, 1952 became null and void in accordance with the Sino-Japanese Joint Communique of Sept 29, 1972.

4. The Sino-Japanese Joint Communique includes no explicit provision, which waived the right of individual victims. The Japan Federation of Bar Associations had also made public its legal opinion that the Joint Communique did not waive the right to demand reparations for losses and damages sustained by Chinese nationals.

5. Art. 148 of the IV Geneva Convention reads "No High Contracting Party shall be allowed to absolve itself or any other High Contracting Party of any liability incurred by itself or by another High Contracting Party in respect of breaches referred to in the preceding Article." Therefore, if any military personnel commit war crimes of grave breaches under Art. 147, the responsible Parties could not be allowed to absolve itself from any liabilities including responsibility for compensation due to the crimes and other Parties shall not be allowed to relinquish the rights of the victims without compensation from the responsible state.

Also in the second sentence of Art. 7 of the IV Geneva Convention reads, "No special agreement shall adversely affect the situation of protected persons, as defined by the present Convention, nor restrict the rights which it confers upon them.” Therefore, the guarantee under Art. 148 cannot be adversely changed by any other international agreements.

Therefore, these 2 articles clearly prohibited Japan and China to absolve Japan of the individual rights to compensation under the said Joint Communique, in particular, if it comes to the issue of grave war crimes. This is the country the USA was/is(?) backing for security council membership!?

[Daminc]

1. Acknowledge its violation of international law.
2. Make a public apology in writing to individual women.
3. Pay compensation to individual women.
4. Amending educational curricula to reflect true historical realities.
5. Full disclosure of related documents
6. Identify and punish, as far as possible, involved perpetrators

Out of these I can understand, and agree with, 2, 4 and 5, maybe 1 as well but I'm not sure of the law 60 odd years ago.

Germany butched a lot of Jewish people, bombed, shot, stabbed etc etc British, americans, Russians, french and countless of other nations and they're now our friends.

Japan used sex slaves. Ok, I sympathise with those women....Americans nuked thousands of civilians. Men, women, children all dead.

We have to learn from lessons in the past and move on. Not keep us chained to the past whilst nuturing enmities.

[Smurf]

Nope becuase I am greek! If that means anything to you. You cant compare the Turks Genocide against the Armnenians (And greeks) to that of the Native americans.. Although both are bad, the way it happened is too different to be used as an anaogue of one another. If it was the same, would America not be part of England?
They were untill they had a rebellion you know. Isn't Armenia an independant country now too!? (I honestly don't know or care, so don't answer)

I am not contesting the Spainish, just the English side of things! When do historians first recgonise "English settlers" being Americans?

Many Many Native Americans were killed by what you would call Americans not English!
What-ever man. Westerners slaughtered native Americans and wiped out many cultures and civilizations and brought countless more to the brink of destruction and forced them to be integrated into our corrupt capitalistic system of greed.

[outsider]

What-ever man. Westerners slaughtered native Americans and wiped out many cultures and civilizations and brought countless more to the brink of destruction and forced them to be integrated into our corrupt capitalistic system of greed.

Smurf brings up a good point...
I hope these comments do not polarize or alienate people, because this is not my intention at all; however, western culture (capitalism) has caused many wars and "peaceful" takeovers throughout the world.

Somehow in history books these wars and takeovers are regarded as "conquests" or "discoveries" or "missions". :devil:

[Smurf]

well, 2 things in my defense:

1) I said "not often"... this whole Canadian pride thing only began since those "i am" Canadian beer commercials... and it's really not rampant among canadians... i guess it falls under a new stereotype....
Yes, yes and yes. It's really only the rednecky types that are all patriotic. You know, Albertans and Albertan wanna-be's. Alberta is like a mild version of Texas.
2) the war of 1812 was instigated by the US... canada was pushed so they pushed back... aparently they pushed all the way to the white house and then turned back...
Actually we just sent a few ships there, burnt it down.... and left. The actual front line was quite a bit farther north than Washington DC, which is why it was so sparsly defended (really not a good reason considering they were fighting the British *Navy* - they should've seen it coming)
I wonder why no one has ever brought up the topic of manifest destiny?
What does that have to do with it?

[Anttech]

They were until they had a rebellion you know. Isn't Armenia an independent country now too!? (I honestly don't know or care, so don't answer)

If you dont care, dont post! Armenia is a country, however thats not the point... the young turks systematically rounded up all Christians and tried to kill them, to create a pure Islamic state... Which is nothing like what happened in America, thus I stated you cant compare the two

What-ever man. Westerners slaughtered native Americans and wiped out many cultures and civilizations and brought countless more to the brink of destruction and forced them to be integrated into our corrupt capitalistic system of greed.

Doesnt answer my question to weather the "English" wiped out Native Americans or the "Americans" did... I would say the Americans did, the redcoats of England may have battled with the Natives, but didnt systematically wipe them out like the American Settlers. But I honestly don’t know enough about that

[The Smoking Man]

Out of these I can understand, and agree with, 2, 4 and 5, maybe 1 as well but I'm not sure of the law 60 odd years ago.

Germany butched a lot of Jewish people, bombed, shot, stabbed etc etc British, americans, Russians, french and countless of other nations and they're now our friends.

Japan used sex slaves. Ok, I sympathise with those women....Americans nuked thousands of civilians. Men, women, children all dead.

We have to learn from lessons in the past and move on. Not keep us chained to the past whilst nuturing enmities.D. A lot of what you have observed in Germany was and IS being settled.

German companies have paid for slave labour. Monies have been paid back artwork returned and looted banks had their monies returned.

None of this has ever happened with Japan.

http://www.skycitygallery.com/japan/japan.html#compare

This is a table indicating First the German response to the tasks listed and then the Japanese:

1. Sincere soul searching Yes No
2. Confession of war crimes Yes No
3. Official true apology Yes No
4. Compensate victims Yes No
5. Compensate Slave Laborers Yes No
6. Compensate Sex Slaves N/A No
7. Compensate WMD Biological victims Yes No
8. Compensate WMD Chemical victims Yes No
9. Identify war criminals Yes No
10. Punish war criminals Yes No
11. Punish WMD Biological criminals Yes No
12. Punish WMD Chemical criminals Yes No
13. Punish WMD Drug criminals N/A No
14. Punish "Three All" criminals N/A No
15. Punish "Strict Disposal" criminals N/A No
16. Punish "Compulsory Seizure" criminals N/A No
17. Punish Sex Slave Rapists N/A No
18. Punish Slavery criminals Yes No
19. Open war time records Yes No
20. Return looted properties Yes No
21. Include history in school textbook Yes No
22. Include history in museum Yes No
23. Tribute to victims Yes No
24. Build Memorial for victims Yes No
25. Set Remembrance day for victims Yes No
26. Condemn war crimes Yes No
27. Suppress Militarism Yes No
28. Cover-up war crimes No YES
29. Purported as victims instead of aggressors No YES
30. Worship war Criminals No YES
31. Adopt Militarism symbol as National Anthem, Flag and Holiday No YES
* No : None, little, un-official, or in-sufficientAlso, remember that people like Ishii killed 12 times the number of people than Josef Mengele.

Oh, and the law we were dealing with 60 years ago ... the Geneva Conventions. You can still read them all on the International Red Cross site.

You can also read the treaty from 1928 baning the use of bio-chem weapons and then try to reconcile this: http://guywong.home.netcom.com/html/terror.htm

[Smurf]

I have to admit I balked at the asterik there. 'in-sufficient'?

In-sufficient to who(m)?

[Daminc]

Thanks for the info TSM.

It doesn't really change my position though.

"the Geneva Conventions." did Japan sign up to the conventions? (that's what I was wondering).

"You can also read the treaty from 1928 baning the use of bio-chem weapons and then try to reconcile this:"
I don't know about other countries but I believe the Americans used Chemical and Biological warfare agents in Vietnam and haven't been procecuted for 'war-crimes'.

I'm not condoning Japans stance in this but I also understand that the situation isn't black or white.

I'm curious, did American pay compensation to Japan for the two nuclear strikes?

In War we do bad things, we kill, sabotage, poison, starve, blow-up, crush, stab the 'enemy' (by the way the 'enemy' is who our bosses say it is on both sides). Arguing about the rules that state that you have to kill the enemy in a nice way is just plain stupid.

War is not nice. Bad things happen. All sides are equally resonsible for doing bad things. The only way it will stop is to not have war...which isn't going to happen.

[Smurf]

I'm curious, did American pay compensation to Japan for the two nuclear strikes?
I'm sure the Marhsall plan made up for it.

In War we do bad things, we kill, sabotage, poison, starve, blow-up, crush, stab the 'enemy' (by the way the 'enemy' is who our bosses say it is on both sides). Arguing about the rules that state that you have to kill the enemy in a nice way is just plain stupid.
No, it's a step towards a more humane world.

[Daminc]

No, it's a step towards a more humane world.
The treatment of prisoners I agree with. You should always respect your opponent and treat him/her accordingly.

However, using an artilery shell that fragments into pieces that shred people (some get killed, some don't) isn't humane no matter how you spin it. Nothing about war is humane so I'll say again: "Arguing about the rules that state that you have to kill the enemy in a nice way is just plain stupid."

[Anttech]

Arguing about the rules that state that you have to kill the enemy in a nice way is just plain stupid

What about land mines? These things should be argued about, they cause more death after qa war has finnished than durring that war!

[Daminc]

Landmines ARE bad but mainly because they can be used indescriminately and are not cleaned up afterwards.

As a strategic tool they are highly effective however they are too easily misused and I agree the ban should be enforced more.

[Smurf]

"Arguing about the rules that state that you have to kill the enemy in a nice way is just plain stupid."
No it's not. What about weapons that increase suffering without increasing efficiency (i.e. serrated blades, in the rules of war since ww1) or weapons that have a high chance of inflicting civilian casualties as well (Chem, Bio, Nuke)?

On what grounds do you call these "stupid"?

[Daminc]

In the 'liberation' of Iraq how many civilians have died because of weapons that are allowed within the Geneva Convention. How many have been permantly injured/maimed? e.g. bombs and rifles?

One of the stated missions of changing from 7.62 to 5.56 was for the purpose to seriously injure the enemy instead of killing them with the logic of taking more people out of the combat area (1 injured, 2 to carry, 1 medic to treat, medicine, fuel etc). It wasn't about taking the enemy out 'humanely' it was about draining the enemies resources.

One of the points I was trying to make is that there is no humane way to kill another human being. Sure, there are degrees of suffering but that inevitable regardless of any Convention.

In terms of priorities in a field of war a CO would like to win a war without any conflict.
If a conflict is inevitable then the priority is defeating the enemy as quickly as possible with the least amount of casualties of those under his/her command. That's it.

The Convention is primarily for the politicians.

Inflicting civilian casualties is highly counter productive and unnecessary and that is why, at least from my experience in the British Army, everything is done to minimise this occuring. However, if there is an enemy contact then they are to be passified as quickly and efficiently as possible. If they surrender then they are no longer a threat to the troops and are treated accordingly.

At no point is the Geneva Convention quoted. They just do the job they're trained for as best they can. It's the politicians and the people who are not in the line of fire and who are never likely to be in that circumstance who have the luxury of discussing ways to kill someone in a nice and 'non-messy' manner.

That's why I call it "stupid".

[Anttech]

yeh well not every army is as well trained as the brittish army...

One of the points I was trying to make is that there is no humane way to kill another human being. Sure, there are degrees of suffering but that inevitable regardless of any Convention.

this is counter-intuative? IMHO The more suffering the more inhumane the death, right?

[The Smoking Man]

The treatment of prisoners I agree with. You should always respect your opponent and treat him/her accordingly.

However, using an artilery shell that fragments into pieces that shred people (some get killed, some don't) isn't humane no matter how you spin it. Nothing about war is humane so I'll say again: "Arguing about the rules that state that you have to kill the enemy in a nice way is just plain stupid."Maybe you aren't quite getting it yet, D.

Unit 731, 100 - Inhuman WMD Biological Warfare

This WMD Biological Warfare is definitely the worst crime case of systematic biological massacre against Humanity committed by a country in our Human History.

"The fellow knew that it was over for him, and so he didn't struggle." recalled the old former medical assistant of a Japanese Army unit in China in World War II, "But when I picked up the scalpel that's when he began screaming. I cut him open from the chest to the stomach, and he screamed terribly, and his face was all twisted in agony. He made this unimaginable sound, he was screaming so horribly. But then finally he stopped." The former medical assistant who insisted on anonymity, explained the reason for the vivisection. The Chinese prisoner had been deliberately infected with the plague as part of a research project.

Imperial Japan's biological killing fields are a lost chapter of history that the full horror of which is only recently been exposed and understood in all its enormity.

Japan set up Headquarters of Unit 731 in Ping Fan near Harbin and Unit 100 in ChangChun, and Mukden, now called SunYang, in China to develop plague bombs for use in WWII. The base was disguised as Epidemic Prevention and Water Supply Unit. The complex in Ping Fan was completed in 1939, contained more than 150 buildings, including 2 secret prisons and 3 crematoria, and was the largest WMD Biological Weapon research center in the world.

After infecting him, the researchers decided to cut him open alive, tear him apart, organ by organ, to see what the disease does to a man's inside. Often no anesthetic was used, he said, out of concern that it might have an effect on the results.

From July 1993 to Dec. 1994, the "Unit 731 Exhibition" toured Japan and presented at 61 locations over the course of one and half year. It had sent shockwaves throughout Japan. Hal Gold had collected many testimonies in his book "Unit 731: Testimony; Japan's Wartime Human Experimentation and the Post-War Cover-Up". One of the testimonies was provided by an aged former Japanese doctor Kurumizawa Masakuni :

The Chinese woman victim had regained her consciousness while being vivisected alive.
" She opened her eyes. "
" And then ? "
" She hollered. "
" What did she say ? "
Kurumizawa could not answer, then began weeping feebly and murmured,
" I don't want to think about it again. "
The interviewee apologized, waited a few seconds, and tried again for an answer.
He gave it through sobs.
" She said, "It's all right to kill me, but please spare my child's life."

Japanese Dr. Kanisawa testified in NBC Dateline "Factory of Death: Unit 731" in Aug. 15, 1995, the live un-anesthetized dissection was a routine common practice in all units.

"The 1st time, I was very hesitant to do what I was told to do.
The 2nd time, you get used to it.
The 3rd time, you more or less volunteered."

Yoshio Shinozuka, a former member of Unit 731 said "The first time, my legs were shaking so badly I could hardly stand up". He knew the person on the operating table, " At the vivisection, I could not meet his eyes because of the hate he had in his glare at me."

"We called the victims ‘logs’," he said, "We didn’t want to think of them as people. We didn’t want to admit that we were taking lives. So we convinced ourselves that what we were doing was like cutting down a tree. When you see someone in that state, you just can’t move. Your mind goes blank. The fear is overwhelming." said Yoshio.

The research program was one of the great secrets of Japan during and after World War II : a vast project to develop weapons of WMD Biological Warfare including following deadly diseases :
Bubonic Plague Anthrax (including inhalation,
skin and gastrointestinal types)
Smallpox Typhoid
Paratyphoid A and B Tularemia
Cholera Epidemic Hemorrhagic Fever
Syphilis Aerosols
Botulism Brucellosis
Dysentery Tetanus
Glanders Tuberculosis
Yellow fever Typhus
Tularemia Gas Gangrene
Scarlet Sever Songo
Diphtheria Brysipelas
Selmonella Venereal Diseases
Infectious Jaundice Undulant Fever
Epidemic Cerebrospinal Meningitis Tick Encephalitis
Plant diseases for crop destruction Dozen other pathogens

Unit 731 & Unit 100 were comprised of over 3,000 researchers and technicians. It was a gigantic research center focused on WMD Biological Weapons - the world's most technically advanced at the time, used human as the guinea pigs, known as marutas (logs). The Japanese told the locals that the facilities were lumber mills.

The Ping Fan facility alone could monthly "manufacture as much as 300 kg of plague bacteria... 500-600 kg of anthrax germs, 800-900 kg typhoid, paratyphoid, or dysentery germs, or as much as 1000 kg of cholera germs." If several different diseases were manufactured simultaneously, then the total production of pathogens could be many times higher.

A former member of Unit 731 testified that "to eliminate any chance of leaking out the secret of construction of the 'Square Buildings' by the laborers, they are all sent to special prison and used as the first batch of test objects."

More than 10,000 Chinese, Korean and Russian PoWs were slaughtered in these biological experiments.

The vivisection was routinely used for practicing various kinds of surgery says Dr. Ken Yuasa, a former Japanese doctor working in China during the War. First an appendectomy, then an amputation of an arm and finally a tracheotomy. When they finished practicing, they killed the victim with an injection. "I was evil. I was a devil," Dr. Ken Yuasa says sadly. "We all were." Morimura Seiichi describes in explicit details of vivisection in his book "The Devouring Monster".

Medical researchers also locked up diseased prisoners with healthy ones, to see how readily various diseases would spread.

To determine how much pressure the body can withstand, some were put inside a pressure chamber would suffer terrible agony before their eyes pop out from their sockets and blood forced out through their skin.

Marutas were denied food or water to determine the maximum length of survival, or mummified alive in total dehydration experiments. Some were put into hot water and gradually increase the temperature to study degree of burns and the relationship between temperature and survival.

To determine the treatment of frostbite, prisoners were taken outside in freezing weather and left with exposed arms, periodically drenched with water until frozen solid. The arm was later amputated, the doctors would repeat the process on the victim's upper arm to the shoulder. After both arms were gone, the doctors moved on to the legs until only a head and torso remained. The victim was then used for plague and pathogens experiments.

That is just a 'taste' of what was done.

If you can equate this with what happened in Nagasaki and Hiroshima then I have several reams more and then we can get into the other Units in the Japanes Biowarfare group.

After that, we can have a run through the Nanjing Massacre and Chi Chi Island where the soldiers were actually executed for cannibalism (http://www.pacificwrecks.com/restore/museum/japanese/chi-chi-jima.html).

And here (http://www.flanews.com/archives2001/1207jeb2.htm).

Jeb Bush's Hero
by Victoria Langley

Friday December 7th, 2001

Speaking at the dedication of the museum of Florida history's new "Florida remembers World War II" exhibit in Tallahassee, Governor Jeb Bush recognized the greatest generation. Jeb Bush says his hero is his father, the former President George Bush, who was nearly captured by enemy forces in World War II.

"In fact my dad didn't talk too much about what he did and in fact that's a common feature of this incredible generation. My dad was shot down in the Pacific in shark-infested waters, the Japanese garrison in a nearby island (Chi Chi Jima)was out to pick him up, he was on a raft, his two crew members had died, he was 19 years old, he was probably pretty scared and a submarine picked him up and I didn't know til last year in all honesty that the rest of the story is that that garrison commander on that island, that Japanese garrison commander was sentenced to death for war crimes for cannibalism. They ate the prisoners on that island to boost the moral of the Japanese troops. Now those stories are told over and over and over again, perhaps wisely amongst themselves, but it's important for us to understand and appreciate the valor and the courage and the duty-bound nature of a generation of people that didn't ask questions." said Bush. Cannibalism and vivisection of allied flyers by the Japanese is quite well documented. Kyushu Imperial University officials, for example, have acknowledged vivisecting eight B-29 crewmen in experiments carried out on May 17, 23, 29 and June 3, 1945.

The experiments were arranged by the Western Japan Military Command and Prof. Fukujiroh Ishiyama, director of external medicine at the university.

In one experiment, Ishiyama extracted an American PoW's lungs and placed them in a surgical pan. He made an incision in the lung artery and allowed blood to flow into the chest cavity, killing the man. In another experiment, Ishiyama removed a prisoner's stomach, then cut five ribs and held a large artery near the heart to determine how long he could stop the blood flow before the victim died. In a third, another Japanese doctor made four openings in a prisoner's skull and inserted a knife into the brain to see what the reaction would be.

The prisoner died.

(from Ienaga, 1968, citing a Japanese publication, The Degradation of Wartime Medicine: the Complete Story on Human Vivisection by Hirako Goichi)POW Camp #1 - Page 5 (http://home.comcast.net/~winjerd/Page05.htm) "Kill-All Order" of August 1, 1944
War Ministry, Tokyo

When the battle situation becomes urgent the POWs will be concentrated and confined in their location and kept under heavy guard until preparations for the final disposition will be made. Although the basic aim is to act under superior orders, individual disposition may be made in certain circumstances. Whether they are destroyed individually or in groups, and whether it is accomplished by means of mass bombing, poisonous smoke, poisons, drowning, or decapitation, dispose of them as the situation dictates. It is the aim not to allow the escape of a single one, to annihilate them all, and not to leave any traces. The Protocol for the Prohibition of the Use in War of Asphyxiating, Poisonous or other Gases, and of Bacteriological Methods of Warfare, usually called the Geneva Protocol, is a treaty to ban the use of chemical and biological weapons. It was signed at Geneva on June 17, 1925 and was entered into force on February 8, 1928.Text of Geneva Protocol of 1928. (http://www.state.gov/t/ac/trt/4784.htm) Signed by every member of the league of nations including Japan.

[Daminc]

Those sort of experiments is something I can't fathom. If the argument is about getting perpertrators of these act to trail then I would agree.

I've trained quite a lot in dealing with NBC environments and injuries (Nuclear, Biological and Chemical) and I find it hard to understand how anybody could experiement on another human being with these (I get angry with the thought of experimenting with animals with these).

I was discussing an issue with a friend of mine and he was saying that the Japanese regarded soldier who surrended as less than animals therefore they were treated as such. Reports of 2 british soldiers who carried on fighting against overwhelming odds until one was killed and the other seriously injured. The one that survived was treated with a high degree of respect. I don't know how true this is but it might be worth considering.

Trying to understand the mindset of another person, especially if that person has done you a great wrong, is the first step of reconsiliation.

[misskitty]

Getting beheaded is the most unhonorable way to die. Japan new that, and that's why they killed using that specific method.


The Japanese considered beheading an honourable way to die. Which sources did you consult that stated otherwise? I'm just curious.

~Kitty

[misskitty]

What about Taiwan, Vietnam, Tibet, and Mongolia?


Prometheus, my knowledge of the events in Asia are rather limited. I am familiar with the cruel disgusting events in Tibet, but I know very very little about the events that transpired in Taiwan, Vietnam, and Mongolia. Could you provide a small synopsis please?

I do know there were atrocities which took place in those countries at the Chinese hand. I agree with your examples in previous posts. Mongolia and Vietnam remain soverign nations. As was Tibet until the mid 1940's. Thus whatever the Chinese inflicted upon them would constitute an attack on another nation.

Dagenais, how do these not fit your request for examples? They were attacks on independent and soverign nations.

~Kitty

[misskitty]

uhhhh... I disagree. WW1? Nazism? Fascism? Stalinism? The countless deaths European Imperialism caused. I don't know how historical you want to get, so I'll just include everything... The Spanish and English practically wiped out indigenous Americans who are only now beginning to numerally recover (only to have their culture destroyed). More than 20% of the world's population lived and died under the rule of the Roman Empire at it's height, and Rome didn't exactly work hard to keep people alive, or free.

Agreed. Don't forget the Spanish Inquistition or the feud between the Catholics and the Protestants in Ireland. Those have taken the lives of many westerners.

[The Smoking Man]

Prometheus, my knowledge of the events in Asia are rather limited. I am familiar with the cruel disgusting events in Tibet, but I know very very little about the events that transpired in Taiwan, Vietnam, and Mongolia. Could you provide a small synopsis please?

I do know there were atrocities which took place in those countries at the Chinese hand. I agree with your examples in previous posts. Mongolia and Vietnam remain soverign nations. As was Tibet until the mid 1940's. Thus whatever the Chinese inflicted upon them would constitute an attack on another nation.

Dagenais, how do these not fit your request for examples? They were attacks on independent and soverign nations.

~KittyIf that is your entire knowledge of what went on in Tibet, then I would consider it severely limited.

In 1907, it was verified by the British and the Russians that China was the owner of Tibet.

In 1911 however, the Chinese withdrew thier troops to handle the Revolution that was under way.

Mongolia!? I am not sure if you understand that the 'Great Wall' was built to keep the Mongolians OUT. It was Ghengis Kahn who eventually invaded and not only unified China but added his ownership of Mongolia to the mix.

This was in fact when the Chinese became known as 'The Han'.

Ironically, the mention of Taiwan or Formosa was your downfall in all of this.

You see, it is enshrined in the constitution of the KMT just what it is that the current administration of China owns by right of succession ... the international law that governs what passes from the rulers of nations when another ruler takes over.

Here is the text (http://www.taiwandocuments.org/constitution01.htm) of the constitution of Taiwan and article 26 states:Article 26
The National Assembly shall be composed of the following Delegates:
1. One Delegate shall be elected from each County, Municipality, or area of equivalent status. In case the population of the electoral district exceeds 500,000, one additional Delegate shall be elected for each additional 500,000. The election of Delegates representing areas equivalent in status to the County or Municipality shall be prescribed by law.
2. Delegates to represent Mongolia shall be elected on the basis of four for each League and one for each Special Banner.
3. The number of Delegates to be elected from Tibet shall be prescribed by law.
4. The number of Delegates to be elected by various ethnic groups in frontier regions shall be prescribed by law.
5. The number of Delegates to be elected by Chinese citizens residing abroad shall be prescribed by law.
6. The number of Delegates to be elected by occupational groups shall be prescribed by law.
7. The number of Delegates to be elected by women's organizations shall be prescribed by law.I suggest you read the Chinese take on the issue located here (http://www.tibet-china.org/historical_status/english/content.html) and ask yourself WHY it is that the UN stays out of it while calling it an 'internal' issue.

Now I would really like to hear your 'take' on the subject of a country, occupied by the Chinese since 1951 who were 'fired upon' by supposed Buddhists!?

What is the Eight Fold Path to you and what is so strange about Buddhists firing guns at people?

Yes, now the man who staged a failed military coup in 1959 somehow has you convinced that he is the prince of peace? :rofl:

[The Smoking Man]

The Japanese considered beheading an honourable way to die. Which sources did you consult that stated otherwise? I'm just curious.

~KittyThe act of Seppuku was an honourable way to die.

The use of a 'second' to behead you was to prevent you from crying out and disgracing yourself.

Beheading in the second world war was used to test the family blade.

Many of the pictures we have from the Nanjing Massacre are of Japanese servicemen taken with the heads they had removed with their family swords that had been shortened for the purpose of the war.

You can recognize them as what appears to be holiday snaps: (Warning ... nasty)

http://www.travelchinaguide.com/picture/jiangsu/nanjing/nanjing-massacre/a000023.htm
http://www.travelchinaguide.com/picture/jiangsu/nanjing/nanjing-massacre/a000028.htm

[Orwell's Ghost]

For a science forum thread based on boos at a soccer match, this thread get's pretty nitty gritty. Congratulations, after reading several threads, I have finally written my first post on this website, which I might add, is very cool as I am a fan of science.

War is never nice. Let's get that out of the way. Sometimes innocent civilians are caught in the middle of a war they did not start. I do not condone the actions taken at Hiroshima or Nagasaki. A horrible act designed to do one thing, kill many and end japanese participation in a war in which America was forced into reluctantly. America was not the instigator of that war, the congress at that time resembled the congress of today except there were probably less marxist moles in the congress at that point in time. Today, forget about it and hope you can slowly fix things next election, and the next, and the next.

I personally feel that an oath of office is outdated. We need to question our future leaders with truth serum and lie detectors to be sure they are not our enemy or aiding our enemy. Wait, that would probably disqualify all of our politicians.

I wonder if any of the contempt between china and nihon was due to the sino-japanese war of 1894 in which china was defeated within a single year (in 1895) by the japanese and forced to give up many things they didn't want to give up. The war, I believe, initially started over Korea because japan feared russian expansion into northern china and korea, a China tributary at the time. This was also the point in history when the Chinese Imperial Government was forced to cede sovereignty over taiwan to the japanese. As you know, china didn't like that, and I'm sure there are still people in positions of power in the PRC that despise Japan for this very fact. The second sino-japanese war was ended, by whom? You got it, the evil Americans, who defeated the japanese in 1945 thus ending the japanese invasion of china. China unfortunately became communist four years later creating a whole new problem entirely, and to me, truly rivals US hegemony or possibly surpasses the US with the exception of military might, but that too is closing in.

China, I fear, will combine might with their simpatico comrades (like they already have) to the north and their muslim friends (saddam called for his communist allies to come to his aid in a speech during the beginning of the US invasion of Iraq which I found in several US papers) to defeat the hegemon known as America, the last big hurdle communism must pass before they can control us all. As an american, all I can really do is vote for the lesser of two liars. We have two main parties in america, Democommies and republicommies. Pick one and get the other. Maybe we should have voted for Gore, after all, he did invent the internet. lmao :rofl:

Personally I hope the person many people in Russia call a kook beats Putin in their next election, that person is kasperov. You chess people should know the name, he is the best in the world. I would be able to sleep better knowing china and russia were not so cozy plotting world domination together. I am slightly concerned about BRIC as well, as China is obviously leveraging itself for a war that will take place between our three great nations very soon (China, Russia & America). Blair I do not trust. Bush I do not trust, how can I, our borders are wide open, and for a sinister reason i fear. How can you be in war and leave your borders unsecured? It doesn't add up. Our "minute men" are considered vigilantes for doing what our federal government is supposed to provide, our defense.

Please see this link for more on BRIC
http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/bline/2003/10/27/stories/2003102700230900.htm

(BRIC =Brazil, Russia, India, China)

China will deny it, I'm sure, but is it a coincidence that the panama canal and the bahamas port are controlled by the same company, Hutchison Whampoa? I think not, especially with chinese spies being one of America's hottest national security threats. This is all quite blatantly obvious to those with an iq over 130. Luckily for communists, many "useful idiots" as Lenin refers to them, do not qualify for this bracket of intelligence and believe what they are told by our own great media propaganda mills. Yeah, I know, it's supposed to look like the bahamas port will only be used for shipping their cheap junk to america, but what of it's militarily strategic importance or that of the panama canal? There are links between Hutchison Whampoa and the PRC. Only a useful idiot would believe companies doing business in china can do so without authority from the PRC. Look at the stockholders of these chinese businesses which make up the new "capitalist-communist" company hybrids, they are mainly communist party hacks and cronies. You will conduct business their way or no way, and many companies nowadays look only at profit and not for the benefit of america. China intends to own the means of production and manufacture on the world, as you are starting the see the effects now. We will soon be buying most of our own munitions from china. Scary, you bet. Wise, certainly not. With chinese and russian spies everywhere in america, I fear for us all. Chinese, Russian, Pakistani, American, Indians and the Japanese, who may just do the right thing this time and join the right side of a world war to defeat global communism. Or am I just dreaming?

I have friends of all nationalities and am by no means racist or one-sided. Communism is never the answer to anything except for maybe how to kill many,... or re-educate them, whichever term you prefer, ultimately ending with the same result.

I really wouldn't care what goes on in China if I knew for certain that China does not mean us any harm. This could happen. And Palestinians keeping a peace treaty could happen too, with about the same likelihood. Or perhaps a small monkey flying out of my rectum could be equally as likely to happen.

All right you pro-marxists, please pick me to shreds now. So others can see the real you. :devil:

[Smurf]

Is Kasperov really running?

[Orwell's Ghost]

He threw his hat into the ring earlier this year. The "state" media and their like are passing him off as a kook though. It's hard telling how things will end up.

Gary Kasperov was recently attacked by someone posing as a fan. Had kasperov sign his chess board, then whacked him with it. From what I read, it wasn't your standard flimsy chessboard either.

Hopefully now he will be more cautious as there are obviously those that do not want to see him run.

[outsider]

Someone called in the big guns :biggrin: Welcome to the discussion Orwell.

You make some very good points and I think you are right on about the 2 political parties in America. You may want to join another discussion currently running about "America poised for world domination".

http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=84852

As for this thread, I don't really know where this is gonna lead to anymore, but I think we can all agree that this attack on China was unecessary and unjustified. Japan not admitting fault or trying to deny fault will affect the relations between the two countries for as long as either country continues to bring it up. China is not a country known for forgetting anything as they have one of the oldest historical records.

All this will result in booing of Japanese athletes. This is only understandable as booing is a sporting tactic called home court advantage.

I don't know where else this discussion will lead to but I come to read it every so often to see if there are any interesting points I can learn from other PFers.

[The Smoking Man]

I really wouldn't care what goes on in China if I knew for certain that China does not mean us any harm. This could happen. And Palestinians keeping a peace treaty could happen too, with about the same likelihood. Or perhaps a small monkey flying out of my rectum could be equally as likely to happen.

All right you pro-marxists, please pick me to shreds now. So others can see the real you. :devil:Marxist!?

I live over here.

Last reference to Marx I saw over here was Duck Soup in a bootleg version of all the Marx Brothers movies on DVD.

I think the USA should stop trying to project their feelings on to the Chinese for a start.

The Chinese have observed how to win a war with the USA. They had good teachers in the Japanese.

The problem is, the USA wasn't aware there was a war on or that they lost it.

Wars are fought in the boardroom today folks.

You know, I think it was when Sony Pictures blocked the release of Return From the River Kwai in 1988 that you should have got your first clue.

You lost to Japan and now you are losing to China ... not a Marxist/Communist entity but a capitalist society with more connections to pure capitalism than the good ole' U S of A. After all, the Chinese don't have any socialist programs to cut into the bottom line.

Dude, there is more Communism and Socialism in America right now.

This is a Neocon wet dream over here ... Pure fascism being controled by the Yuan and who has the most of it.

[Smurf]

I don't know where else this discussion will lead to but I come to read it every so often to see if there are any interesting points I can learn from other PFers.
Actually you're not an official "PFer" untill you reach 500 posts. You're still a NPFer. Sorry.

[Smurf]

I personally feel that an oath of office is outdated. We need to question our future leaders with truth serum and lie detectors to be sure they are not our enemy or aiding our enemy. Wait, that would probably disqualify all of our politicians.
Judging from USA's definition of an 'enemy' that would disqualify anyone who isn't brainwashed to kow tow to the administration's every whim.
This was also the point in history when the Chinese Imperial Government was forced to cede sovereignty over taiwan to the japanese.An interesting point I hadn't considered before. China lays claim to Taiwan as national territory, but there's a good half a decade where China recognized Taiwan as part of Japan's territory before they went to war again. Then after the war, the Communist government claims everything the old China had, and then some. Food for thought.

China, I fear, will combine might with their simpatico comrades (like they already have) to the north
Russians are simpatic to China? Oh COME ON! Those two havn't had decent relations since Mao.
and their muslim friends (saddam called for his communist allies to come to his aid in a speech during the beginning of the US invasion of Iraq which I found in several US papers) to defeat the hegemon known as America,
You may not realise this, but Saddam was probably sucking up at the time.
Oh, but you were right by assuming he speaks for all them muslims 'allies'.. you know.. considering he was a secular dictator and all.

the last big hurdle communism must pass before they can control us all. As an american, all I can really do is vote for the lesser of two liars. We have two main parties in america, Democommies and republicommies. Pick one and get the other. Maybe we should have voted for Gore, after all, he did invent the internet. lmao :rofl:
You remind me of the smurfs, only instead of replacing every 3rd word with 'smurf' you replace it with 'commie'.

Personally I hope the person many people in Russia call a kook beats Putin in their next election, that person is kasperov. You chess people should know the name, he is the best in the world. I would be able to sleep better knowing china and russia were not so cozy plotting world domination together. You do realise that Russia, aside from having a lot of territory, isn't really that much of a threat these days? It's not even considered a developed country by some standards.

I am slightly concerned about BRIC as well, as China is obviously leveraging itself for a war that will take place between our three great nations very soon (China, Russia & America). Russia is barely considered a developed nation! It's no where near it's power during the USSR years.
Blair I do not trust. Bush I do not trust,From the sound of you I'd reckon you wouldn't trust Mother "Commie" Teresa either.
how can I, our borders are wide open, and for a sinister reason i fear. How can you be in war and leave your borders unsecured?
Well, you're not *at war* with anyone on your borders so... It seems pretty logical to me. I mean, unless you think Canada is gonna turn Islam Theocracy tomorrow and declare war. Which, I won't deny, IS a possibility.... It's just not... very likely... is all...

It doesn't add up. Our "minute men" are considered vigilantes for doing what our federal government is supposed to provide, our defense.Yeah, in fact I think I saw something about Mexico planning to invade you next thursday.. or was that the rapture? These things are so confusing.

Regardless, I guess Mexico finally dealt with that little civil war they have going on there, no big deal really, only been going on for the last decade or so.

Please see this link for more on BRIC
http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/bline/2003/10/27/stories/2003102700230900.htm

(BRIC =Brazil, Russia, India, China)
First of all BRAZIL is moving in the exact opposite direction of China and India, you may have heard something about it, some internal strife resulting in Left Wing Radical governments... no?

China will deny it, I'm sure, but is it a coincidence that the panama canal and the bahamas port are controlled by the same company, Hutchison Whampoa? I think not,
Imagine that, a port and a canal owned by the same company... They're even in the same body of water! It MUST be a conspiracy!

especially with chinese spies being one of America's hottest national security threats. Yeah those nasty Chinese Terr-um-spies! Those Muslim spie-um-suicidebombers don't even compare!

This is all quite blatantly obvious to those with an iq over 130.
Yeah, because politics is all about spatial awareness and logical mathematics.
[qupte]Luckily for communists, many "useful idiots" as Lenin refers to them, [/quote]Actually Lenin spoke russian.
do not qualify for this bracket of intelligence and believe what they are told by our own great media propaganda mills.
No argument from me there.
Yeah, I know, it's supposed to look like the bahamas port will only be used for shipping their cheap junk to america, but what of it's militarily strategic importance or that of the panama canal?What about it?
There are links between Hutchison Whampoa and the PRC.
*gasp* and that's not the half of it! They also have links with the USA AND France! :surprised

Only a useful idiot would believe companies doing business in china can do so without authority from the PRC. I disagree, that's more of a trait for useless idiots.
Look at the stockholders of these chinese businesses which make up the new "capitalist-communist" company hybrids, they are mainly communist party hacks and cronies. Hey Ya! Just like Enron!
You will conduct business their way or no way, and many companies nowadays look only at profit and not for the benefit of america.You might even think that they're capitalist. God forbid.
China intends to own the means of production and manufacture on the world, as you are starting the see the effects now. We will soon be buying most of our own munitions from china. Scary, you bet. Wise, certainly not.It doesn't work that way, you don't have to buy anything from China unless it's owned by China, as it is there are American companies making stuff in China, they're still owned by American corporations.

With chinese and russian spies everywhere in america, I fear for us all. Really? I just fear for you.
Chinese, Russian, Pakistani, American, Indians and the Japanese, who may just do the right thing this time and join the right side of a world war to defeat global communism. Or am I just dreaming?The dreaming one.
I have friends of all nationalities and am by no means racist or one-sided. No.. not at all... :rolleyes:
Communism is never the answer to anything except for maybe how to kill many,... or re-educate them, whichever term you prefer, ultimately ending with the same result.Yup
http://www.tnbonline.com/images/photos/cash.jpg
I really wouldn't care what goes on in China if I knew for certain that China does not mean us any harm. This could happen. And Palestinians keeping a peace treaty could happen too, with about the same likelihood. Or perhaps a small monkey flying out of my rectum could be equally as likely to happen.or it growing lips...
All right you pro-marxists, please pick me to shreds now. So others can see the real you. :devil:just FYI I'm an anarchist (before any misunderstandings happen) :smile:

[The Smoking Man]

Actually you're not an official "PFer" untill you reach 500 posts. You're still a NPFer. Sorry.Cool.

Ya mean I'm in then?

Heck, I was warned by Evo on about my third day out.

You mean there's no hazing like wearing underwear on my head, going down to the 7/11 and screaming "allah akbar this Mo Fo"?

Oh, sorry that was the Rush Limbaugh fan club ... Never mind.

[Smurf]

Cool.Yes it isYa mean I'm in then?Sure.Heck, I was warned by Evo on about my third day out.You always did get along with the ladiesYou mean there's no hazing like wearing underwear on my head, going down to the 7/11 and screaming "allah akbar this Mo Fo"?Geeze man, I don't know. I just made it up as part of my recent newb-bashing schemeOh, sorry that was the Rush Limbaugh fan club ... Never mind.Funny.

[Orwell's Ghost]

Please let me apologize if I came off sounding like I want a world war to occur. That is not what I am hoping for. I am just concerned with the amount of heat I feel radiating off of china at the moment, from their massive buildup of weaponry to the enlargement of their naval force. Espionage and media contro, yeah, throw that it too.

I am glad to hear that china is such a capitalist powerhouse these days. I am surprised the chinese would actually accept that label be utilized. They are not capitalist, but let's get to that later.

They do want to control the means of production and manufacture. Maybe you could explain exactly how to interpret article 6 of the PRC constitution as it is a little hard to understand, me being a nieve caucasian and all. Article 6 The basis of the socialist economic system of the People's Republic of China is socialist public ownership of the means of production, namely, ownership by the whole people and collective ownership by the working people.

Now, I do see it says socialist public ownership of the means of production, but please explain the "ownership by the whole people and collective ownership by the working people." portion of the article. What exactly is "socialist public ownership" and collective ownership by the whole people? Where's my dividend for all the cheap Walmart garbage? I haven't received a check, unless that means Chinese people.

Another question I have regarding Article 9 "All mineral resources, waters, forests, mountains, grasslands, unreclaimed land, beaches, and other natural resources are owned by the state, that is, by the whole people, with the exception of the forest, mountains, grasslands and unreclaimed land and beaches that are owned by collectives in accordance with the law. The state ensures the rational use of natural resources and protects rare animals and plants. Appropriation or damaging natural resources by any organization or individual by whatever means is prohibited.

Are your house and land given to you for being a good boy? And taken from you when you're naughty? Please enlighten me.

Please let me know why speech is controlled in your country but a chinese general can spout off about nuking many US cities and he is not punished by his peers?

Sorry again for not mentioning the word communist yet. Oops, too late. Damn. Smurf, I thought you'd be proud of me. Smoking Man, sorry for dropping the Marx name from nowhere, you gotta throw him in the mix so as not to use the c word too much, it makes smurf very unsmurfy.

Smoking Man, please let me know how your "mother land", oh damn, that's russia. Please let me know how china deals with those horrible, horibble cyber cafes. Damn those young kids and their desire to learn from somewhere that isn't yet censored by "Uncle Shek". It's ashame that the doors to some of these places seem to get locked when the place mysteriously starts on fire and incinerates everyone while they are locked inside. Don't you hate it when that happens.

The chinese are great people, their leaders could use a hug though. I would like to say things seemed to have cooled down a bit since that whole tieneman thingy. Again, against those crazy kids.

If china was really so "open", why do they censor all news, media, films, behavior, pasttimes and such. I'm not sure I could deal with that myself, but to each his own I guess. I like to read what I like, see what I want to see and learn what I want to learn. I assumed most people felt the same.

Again, for the record, I am not racist. I am an anti-socialist, plain and simple. Whether they be american socialists/communists or wherever they may be lurking. I have many chinese friends (and japanese friends too). I do not have many russian friends, but my last girlfriend was lithuanian, does that count? It is a russian state. Russian girls are definately something else. Beautiful for sure. My wife wouldn't like me saying that though... Russian news is da bomb.

I would, however, like to point you to a great information source. Perhaps you have heard of him, Colonel Stanislav Lunev. He has great information although you probably won't find anything more recent than say 2001 or 2002. You see, he is the highest ranking soviet ever to defect from mother russia. He's pretty much come clean on a lot of spicy issues and has went into detail about the communists' seige on america (a work in progress) such as infiltration of our media, our government, poisoning water sources and much much more. I know, you said that russia and china are not helping out, but maybe that's because your newspaper isn't telling you anything about it? After all, it is censored. :)

Please explain, the pact to join in a fight against america. Or about the joint-military exercise of 5,000 troops. Yes, I did say joint exercise. This does appear that they are working with each other. I find it hard to believe that someone in the homeland has access to internet and isn't incinerated yet. Hmmm.

Mr. Smoking Man, I must say I am amazed at the professional quality of some of your posts. If you are not using a team of subordinates to make your posts, I must say you truly are an impressive individual. You aren't Falun Gong are you? If you are, you better watch your back, the PRC will kill you first and identify your remains later.

Lastly, I would like to say Accuracy In Media has a eyeopening report in Feb. 03.
http://www.aim.org/aim_report/A217_0_4_0_C/

Please explain why so many millions have died under communism in such a short amount of time? Sounds like such a great system of government. No corruption at the highest levels, utopia everywhere. Must be grand.

[Orwell's Ghost]

Smoking, hope you don't take anything i have posted as slamming you or your country, for that is not my intent. The chinese have a very interesting history with its ups and downs. Tell me the truth, is Yao Ming really a clone? How did he get so damn tall?

If it upsets you that I see what I see, i'll tone down my posts a bit. I just don't feel communism is for me and many in my own country are a bit worried over China's growing influence and power while at the same time, China is very controlling of its people to a point I would consider unneccessary and counter-productive to a civilization.

-Orwell's Ghost

[outsider]

You are ruining the world's view of America. After reading your post targeted against TSM, I was really offended and sickened.... I'm sorry TSM, this guy does not represent North American thought. I think you are wise enough to figure that out. As for Orwell's post, this is how I viewed it, and so Orwell's Ghost, this will be my gift to you:
Please let me apologize if I came off sounding like I want a world war to occur. That is not what I am hoping for.
for some strange reason, I don't believe you.

I am just concerned with the amount of heat I feel radiating off of china at the moment, from their massive buildup of weaponry to the enlargement of their naval force. Espionage and media contro, yeah, throw that it too.
fear mongering tactic.

I am glad to hear that china is such a capitalist powerhouse these days.
no you're not.

I am surprised the chinese would actually accept that label be utilized. They are not capitalist, but let's get to that later.

condescending; weak attempt at a cheap shot
[/quote]

They do want to control the means of production and manufacture. Maybe you could explain exactly how to interpret article 6 of the PRC constitution as it is a little hard to understand, me being a nieve caucasian and all. Article 6 The basis of the socialist economic system of the People's Republic of China is socialist public ownership of the means of production, namely, ownership by the whole people and collective ownership by the working people.

you think you know it already... what's the point in anyone talking to you?

Now, I do see it says socialist public ownership of the means of production, but please explain the "ownership by the whole people and collective ownership by the working people." portion of the article. What exactly is "socialist public ownership" and collective ownership by the whole people?

don't be an idiot.

Where's my dividend for all the cheap Walmart garbage?
you should ask Walmart as they are seriously involved in screwing middle America!!! and coming soon to more locations in Canada!


I haven't received a check, unless that means Chinese people.

i just wanted to emphasize who is speaking... *shaking head*

Another question I have regarding Article 9 "All mineral resources, waters, forests, mountains, grasslands, unreclaimed land, beaches, and other natural resources are owned by the state, that is, by the whole people, with the exception of the forest, mountains, grasslands and unreclaimed land and beaches that are owned by collectives in accordance with the law. The state ensures the rational use of natural resources and protects rare animals and plants. Appropriation or damaging natural resources by any organization or individual by whatever means is prohibited.

looks like someone was trying to start some type of business in China to take advantage of their cheap labor... i could be wrong o:)

Are your house and land given to you for being a good boy? And taken from you when you're naughty? Please enlighten me.

One can only achieve one's own enlightmentment. Therefore anyone can try as hard as they can, with no guaranteed result... plus we have nothing to gain from it :smile:

Please let me know why speech is controlled in your country but a chinese general can spout off about nuking many US cities and he is not punished by his peers?

can you tell me why America is so F-ed Up? Clean up the mess you made first before criticising...

Sorry again for not mentioning the word communist yet. no your not cuz you just did that on purpose
Oops, too late. Damn.
see?
Smurf, I thought you'd be proud of me.
No, didn't think.
Smoking Man, sorry for dropping the Marx name from nowhere, you gotta throw him in the mix so as not to use the c word too much, it makes smurf very unsmurfy.

you sound like a bigger crazy than I sound there... now that's scary

Smoking Man, please let me know how your "mother land", oh damn, that's russia. Please let me know how china deals with those horrible, horibble cyber cafes. Damn those young kids and their desire to learn from somewhere that isn't yet censored by "Uncle Shek". It's ashame that the doors to some of these places seem to get locked when the place mysteriously starts on fire and incinerates everyone while they are locked inside. Don't you hate it when that happens.

more crazy talk...

(more crazy talk)

Again, for the record, I am not racist.
perhaps you don't think you are, but chances are: YOU ARE and don't know YOU ARE.

I am an anti-socialist, plain and simple. Whether they be american socialists/communists or wherever they may be lurking.
this sounds like it involves guns (hence my introduction shaming you and the need to apologize to the world on behalf of the Americans who do not share your view.)

I have many chinese friends (and japanese friends too). and what do they think about Japan in WWII, and the Japanese Govt wanting to change the history books to reflect that the war crimes never happened?

Mr. Smoking Man, I must say I am amazed at the professional quality of some of your posts. If you are not using a team of subordinates to make your posts, I must say you truly are an impressive individual. You aren't Falun Gong are you? If you are, you better watch your back, the PRC will kill you first and identify your remains later.
well, I don't know about YOU, but TSM seems to have been around before these threads came about.... YOU, however, sound like you may have a team.. or perhaps you lead a team... :rofl:

Please explain why so many millions have died under communism in such a short amount of time? Sounds like such a great system of government. No corruption at the highest levels, utopia everywhere. Must be grand.
wrong discussion... you clearly make yourself a fool by pointing your keyboard at China... despite what you say, you are a chinese hater... your posts will no longer hold any credibility with me... sorry :yuck:

[Smurf]

Mind if I answer some of this TSM?
I am glad to hear that china is such a capitalist powerhouse these days. I am surprised the chinese would actually accept that label be utilized.Oh They don't. They still maintain the position that they are 'communist'. We call them capitalist because it's a hell of a lot more accurate than both Marxism and Maoism.

Are your house and land given to you for being a good boy? And taken from you when you're naughty? Please enlighten me.Actually, interestingly enough they DO do that in Cuba. You have to 'apply' for a house when you move out of your parents house. And if you want to move you have to 'trade' with someone. Personally I think it sounds totally awsome.

Please let me know why speech is controlled in your country but a chinese general can spout off about nuking many US cities and he is not punished by his peers?See your problem is you're still looking at China as Marxist. It isn't. It never really was either, Maoism wasn't even that close to Marxism in the first place. There's no real difference between a Chinese General saying "Nuke the US" and Bush saying "Axis of Evil"

Sorry again for not mentioning the word communist yet. Oops, too late. Damn. Smurf, I thought you'd be proud of me.Really? That's interesting. You've only just joined, what made you draw that conclusion about me?

If china was really so "open", why do they censor all news, media, films, behavior, pasttimes and such. I'm not sure I could deal with that myself, but to each his own I guess. I like to read what I like, see what I want to see and learn what I want to learn. I assumed most people felt the same.You also assumed that China's the only one.

Again, for the record, I am not racist. I am an anti-socialist, plain and simple. I thought you were an Anti-Maoist.

I do not have many russian friends, but my last girlfriend was lithuanian, does that count? It is a russian state. Russian girls are definately something else. Beautiful for sure. My wife wouldn't like me saying that though... Russian news is da bomb. You know Russia's not communist either... right?

He's pretty much come clean on a lot of spicy issues and has went into detail about the communists' seige on america (a work in progress) such as infiltration of our media, our government, poisoning water sources and much much more. Oh yeah? did he tell you how the Smurfs were communist propoganda and show pictures comparing Papa Smurf to Karl Marx and so on? Hate to break it to you, but the guy's probably a loonie left over from the good 'ol McCarthyist period.

Please explain, the pact to join in a fight against america. Or about the joint-military exercise of 5,000 troops. Yes, I did say joint exercise. This does appear that they are working with each other. I find it hard to believe that someone in the homeland has access to internet and isn't incinerated yet.For the record, the only country in the world where the Internet is illegal.. is Burma. You're also not allowed to gather in groups larger than 10 and if you so much as know where the border is they tend to restrict your visit to a "supervised" tour.... for your protection of course. Dangerous jungle out there.

If you are, you better watch your back, the PRC will kill you first and identify your remains later....? Yeah, the PRC has this bad habit of killing random people and THEN finding out who it was afterwards.

Please explain why so many millions have died under communism in such a short amount of time? Sounds like such a great system of government. No corruption at the highest levels, utopia everywhere. Must be grand.Be carefull, a lot of figures about people dying under communism are sckewed. I think we addressed one main example earlier in the thread? Or was it another one....

[Smurf]

Outsider, let's not be so quick to judge. This kind of thought is not entirely uncommon in the states, and this guy seems to be willing to learn, we should try to show him where he's wrong. (oh yeah, because that's EXACTLY what I've been doing :tongue2: )

[Archon]

I am glad to hear that china is such a capitalist powerhouse these days. I am surprised the chinese would actually accept that label be utilized. They are not capitalist, but let's get to that later.
You didn't get to it. You cited their constitution, which, as I'm sure The Smoking Man can tell you, isn't exactly being followed verbatim. Do you have any information about actual conditions?

They do want to control the means of production and manufacture. Maybe you could explain exactly how to interpret article 6 of the PRC constitution as it is a little hard to understand, me being a nieve caucasian and all. Article 6 The basis of the socialist economic system of the People's Republic of China is socialist public ownership of the means of production, namely, ownership by the whole people and collective ownership by the working people.

Now, I do see it says socialist public ownership of the means of production, but please explain the "ownership by the whole people and collective ownership by the working people." portion of the article. What exactly is "socialist public ownership" and collective ownership by the whole people? Where's my dividend for all the cheap Walmart garbage? I haven't received a check, unless that means Chinese people.

Another question I have regarding Article 9 "All mineral resources, waters, forests, mountains, grasslands, unreclaimed land, beaches, and other natural resources are owned by the state, that is, by the whole people, with the exception of the forest, mountains, grasslands and unreclaimed land and beaches that are owned by collectives in accordance with the law. The state ensures the rational use of natural resources and protects rare animals and plants. Appropriation or damaging natural resources by any organization or individual by whatever means is prohibited.
You seem to be interpreting this as a desire to control the entire world. It seems to me that it only applies in China, which makes it no more unreasonable than the U.S. government preventing the sale of an American oil company to the Chinese: protection of valuable resources.

Please let me know why speech is controlled in your country but a chinese general can spout off about nuking many US cities and he is not punished by his peers?
Perhaps you can gain an insight into the reality of the "communist" government in China by studying this in more depth.

Sorry again for not mentioning the word communist yet. Oops, too late. Damn. Smurf, I thought you'd be proud of me. Smoking Man, sorry for dropping the Marx name from nowhere, you gotta throw him in the mix so as not to use the c word too much, it makes smurf very unsmurfy.
What's the point of this?

Smoking Man, please let me know how your "mother land", oh damn, that's russia. Please let me know how china deals with those horrible, horibble cyber cafes. Damn those young kids and their desire to learn from somewhere that isn't yet censored by "Uncle Shek". It's ashame that the doors to some of these places seem to get locked when the place mysteriously starts on fire and incinerates everyone while they are locked inside. Don't you hate it when that happens.
And what's the point of this?

The chinese are great people, their leaders could use a hug though. I would like to say things seemed to have cooled down a bit since that whole tieneman thingy. Again, against those crazy kids.
What, and you're proud of every aspect of American history? It's not like slavery or the wholesale destruction of the Native American population weren't worse than Tiananmen Square.

If china was really so "open", why do they censor all news, media, films, behavior, pasttimes and such. I'm not sure I could deal with that myself, but to each his own I guess. I like to read what I like, see what I want to see and learn what I want to learn. I assumed most people felt the same.
To the best of my knowledge it's not nearly as extreme as you seem to think.
Perhaps you should educate yourself on the realities of Chinese life before implying that they enjoy a repressed existence.

Again, for the record, I am not racist. I am an anti-socialist, plain and simple. Whether they be american socialists/communists or wherever they may be lurking. I have many chinese friends (and japanese friends too).
Are you sure you aren't racist? You seem to have implied that the Chinese would enjoy living under a dictator. This is a racially-oriented insult.

I do not have many russian friends, but my last girlfriend was lithuanian, does that count? It is a russian state.
Ask her whether she would like to be called Russian. Then, run.

I would, however, like to point you to a great information source. Perhaps you have heard of him, Colonel Stanislav Lunev. He has great information although you probably won't find anything more recent than say 2001 or 2002. You see, he is the highest ranking soviet ever to defect from mother russia. He's pretty much come clean on a lot of spicy issues and has went into detail about the communists' seige on america (a work in progress) such as infiltration of our media, our government, poisoning water sources and much much more. I know, you said that russia and china are not helping out, but maybe that's because your newspaper isn't telling you anything about it? After all, it is censored. :)
I don't understand you. You obviously despise communism and socialism, and yet, you are more willing to trust a (supposed) defector from the most powerful "communist" country ever to have existed over your own government. How do you justify this?

Please explain, the pact to join in a fight against america. Or about the joint-military exercise of 5,000 troops. Yes, I did say joint exercise. This does appear that they are working with each other. I find it hard to believe that someone in the homeland has access to internet and isn't incinerated yet. Hmmm.
If by "the homeland" you mean China...uh...The Smoking Man? Maybe? He's in China and appears to be using the internet. He obviously hasn't been incinerated in any way.

Please explain why so many millions have died under communism in such a short amount of time? Sounds like such a great system of government. No corruption at the highest levels, utopia everywhere. Must be grand.
Millions of people died in the U.S. last year as well. Since China's population is so much greater than that of the U.S., maybe natural deaths account for much of it, right? For further discussion of this topic, there's a fairly recent thread in which this was dealt with.

[The Smoking Man]

You didn't get to it. You cited their constitution, which, as I'm sure The Smoking Man can tell you, isn't exactly being followed verbatim. Do you have any information about actual conditions?I'm still trying to figure out where he got the impression that I am actually Chinese.

My only response to him thus far has included the words, "I live here".

To clarify my disposition, I have dual British/Canadian nationality.

I work as a consultant in China negotiating and educating ignorant westerners past their misconceptions about this country.

His basic 'misconception' is that the document he is using is still in force ... it isn't.

The rest of the reports he seems to have been quoting seem to be biased reporting on behalf of American besides his reference to the 'truth in media' site he mentions.

Let's go through a quick recap ... There are more socialist programs going on in America the rest of the world than there are in China.

The only thing 'workers' pay into here is the tax system. Now, pick up your latest pay stub and look at your deductions ... manditory and optional.

Internet ... The internet cafes that were closed for the most part actually defied zoning laws which states that they may not be installed within a certain distance to public schools. The problem is, a lot of the kids are cutting classes to play internet games.

Also, a good portion were shut down because they were not up to code. If you check the last major closure of illegal internet cafes, it happened after one of these places caught fire and the management had chained the fire doors closed.

You will also find that a good many are operating without business licenses and are not paying taxes.

The very fact that they had not enforced the law for the above three types of violation allowing the number of illegal places to open is testament to the fact that things are not as drachonian as he paints them to be.

Free speech - So we have a General in the Chinese army talking about a nuclear strike possibility as a private citizen and not as a government mouthpiece ... Ummm ... so what are you saying? That he is in some way more constrained than William G. "Jerry" Boykin over his 'my god was bigger than his god' statements?

Are you also saying that the Chinese government owns all the Sony, Mitac, Phillips, Siemens, etc. plants and that the sell off of SREs to private individuals over the years has all been a big lie?

Now you seem to have a problem with what happened in 1989 in Tiananmen. What are you looking for an apology? So when can we expect an apology from Dubya over the illegal war in Iraq that killed much more people and happened just two years ago? Tianmen was something that happened and was decided over a period of 5 days and was no doubt the wrong decision however people here have moved on. The last anniversary saw 16 people turn up in Tinanmen get detained for a few minutes and then they were released. Iraq, according to the Downing Street Memo, seems to have been in the planning for quite some time and resulted in the deaths of 10s of thousands.

While the method of suppression was a tad heavy handed, let's try and draw a paralell over what occurred and what drove the students to their protest ... the fall of the wall in Berlin.

Do you think what happened in the Soviet Union should have been repeated in China? Do you believe that 1.2 billion people in the landmass known as China would have dealt with the freedom any better than the Soviet States who experienced a collapsed econoimy, ethnic cleansing and Civil War? Is this what you wished for the Chinese people? Again, I see American calling for the deaths of millions at the cost of what they consider to be the 'freedoms' of people other than themselves.

All I can say about most of what you posted is 'Are you or have you ever been a supporter of Joe McCarthy'?

You sound like a complete idiot referring to documents severely dated and tainted by republican media who is having problems dealing with the fact that the 'commies' are less 'commie' than the USA and they have already overtaken you in production and world competition ... the same as the 'democratic' countries of Japan and Korea in the 1980's.

Now you are staring at the TWO countries of China and Vietnam who are placed 1 and two in terms of growth of success and wondering how something that goes completely against your beliefs can be so successful.

I truly am sorry for you.

[outsider]

You know... this thread has gone way off track... originally this was about soccer fans and booing... obviously it had to touch the Japan / China relations... we're now discussing whether China is a threat to the U.S. or vice versa... there is a discussion already about "U.S. poised to dominate the world"... perhaps that is a better field to play on?

Smurf, I find your posts very "insightful and penetrating" as another PFer might say...
but you are still a jerk... I know I'm the new guy here, so whatever... at least you know you're a jerk.

Yes, I agree that Orwell's Ghost does deserve a chance to learn... unfortunately, I got upset because I do not want the world to think that all Americans think the way he does... this is why there is war... hatemongering!! I am only racist against racists.. and that includes racists of every color (including non-color / white). I just don't wanna clean up his crap... he's instigating and i don't appreciate it.

I've travelled to many places in the world and it seems like most governments mistreat it's people. America is mistreating it's people by sending the to an unecessary war... debatable.. yes.. let's... somewhere else perhaps?

US, Canada, England, France, Japan and Australia (of the places I've been) seem to have their peoples "domesticated" to the point where they are really obedient. The system sorta works.

I have not been to any other countries and am not a scholar of politics, but I know what I see and I talk to real people everywhere I go.

Chinese people in my opinion are "trained" to say that they love their country... this is does not take away the fact that some of them live in an element of fear and insecurity. But I think that is their problem to deal with. This does not give anyone the right to judge their country. It's like a left hander telling a right hander that they are stupid, or weird, or wrong. Being "right handed" does not mean "right" in the context of "right and wrong".

Who are we, really, to judge another persons problems when we haven't dealt with our own?

[Smurf]

TSM, my cousin was just in shanghai for a number of months. When I spoke to her about it she cited a few examples of strong censorship that she considered ridiculous. For example, when the people she was staying with were watching television and the show was suddenly cut out (some sort of technical difficulty) just when a paticular part was coming on.. say... When a tank was about to drive over a person (no specific historical reference).

What's your response to that?

[Smurf]

Smurf, I find your posts very "insightful and penetrating" as another PFer might say...
but you are still a jerk... I know I'm the new guy here, so whatever... at least you know you're a jerk. Hmm.. how to respond.
Thank you. Yeah, I know. And I appreciate you're honesty. Why, exactly.. ? Is it because of my cynical patronizing remarks?

Yes, I agree that Orwell's Ghost does deserve a chance to learn... unfortunately, I got upset because I do not want the world to think that all Americans think the way he does... this is why there is war... hatemongering!! I am only racist against racists.. and that includes racists of every color (including non-color / white). I just don't wanna clean up his crap... he's instigating and i don't appreciate it.That's understandable, but we should always try to respond in a constructive fastion, regardless of what we'd like to do. Otherwise we're just as negative a force as they are.

US, Canada, England, France, Japan and Australia (of the places I've been) seem to have their peoples "domesticated" to the point where they are really obedient. The system sorta works.Where have you been that they don't seem domesticated?

Who are we, really, to judge another persons problems when we haven't dealt with our own?
Human beings.

[Orwell's Ghost]

Outsider, Where did I attack smoking man? Sure, he is the person I was asking, but only because he is residing in a communist country. I asked some questions pertaining to some of the horrible abuses of power inflicted or so I thought by the cpc or other communist regimes. My government sure has it's share of abuses and I'd comment on any of them. Any abuse of another human being I see as wrong. You can attack me with your words, with no problems and when I ask questions or state things I have read, I'm seen as attacking. I guess America can be talked harshly about by anybody without any backlash, but lets not talk about China or what China may be up to or else you are labelled a chinese hater and a racist. Couldn't be further from the truth. If my questions were answered and I could tell it were true, I would be relieved. Nope, lets just call my questions "crazy" rather than give a response. I was only pointing out a specific incidents or things that are happening. I am not a socialist but that doesn't make me racist and I do not hate chinese people. I guess I have to say that again, huh. Where have I said i hate anybody. Just because I dissagree with the "communist" template that I think of due to Russia and Germany, doesn't mean I hate my fellow man.

America has it's problems and then some. Waco texas is one example of our government gone extremely wrong. Janet Reno and the Clinton administration caused that atrocity. Or Bosnia too.

Japan's non-apology for the horrible things they did to the Chinese is wrong, detestable and unacceptable, what can I do about that? I didn't know the extent of their atrocities until I cam to this thread. Disturbing tortures and very sick. My college japanese teacher seemed to have hard feelings toward one of the chinese students in my class and vice-versa. I didn't know why at the time, I didn't read about the sino-japanese wars until later. I always wanted the chinese people to be living under a free nation and do what they want.

TSM, as for the cyber cafes, that was a relevant question and I'm glad you answered it. It disturbed me to only get attacked and insulted for asking some serious questions. I was about to write off this website as hostile, but glad I didn't.

If I were really so heated and hateful, racist and looking for war, why am I not in the US military and only asking questions in a forum such as this. I would like to know answers to some of the questions I have had for years, that's all? Thank you TSM for clearing up the cyber cafe thing (and the outdated consitution). The papers I was reading only had little blurbs which seemed like they could have been concocted because there was so little written about it.

I blame American corporations and our unions mostly for our mess regarding our loss of manufacturing, I don't blame china directly, as they have low cost of production. I know the big corporations doing business in china are not owned by china. I was referring to the chinese owned corporations being partially controlled by the state, even if it is indirectly, or so I was told. Hutchinson was one of the chinese companies in particular I asked about.

The massive buildup of weapons by a communist country and purchases from russia I havent been able to see as a good thing. (please set me straight) It scares me quite frankly, just as the US power may scare the Chinese. I don't know if they are scared of the US, I'm just generalizing. Japan had similar military buildup prior to wwii. I understand China has soverign rights like any country so militaries and navies are normal, but such a rapid growth scares me personally, that and the Chinese-Russian pact and joint exercise. Is it for Taiwan only (if the US were to defend Tiawan) or I have wondered if the US part of the equation separate from Taiwan, scary. Japan had similarly massive military buildup prior to wwii. We know how that turned out.

I understand it is "chik" nowadays in the US to put on your Chez Guevarra shirt, pop open a bottle of red star beer and watch the demise of america. Sorry if I do not do the same, for I love my friends, my family and my country, even if it is still young in the eyes of the world. It is horrible what the US did to the indians too. My wife is part american indian and my step-father was part american indian and was also a member of our military. Two different tribes though. Blackfoot (wife) and Chippewa (step father).

And actually, when I asked about the millions that have died under communism, I wasn't referring to the people that have died of old age and I wasn't even referring to china in that scenario as I haven't heard of any staggering mass murder in china. My discussion was about communism in general and Russian communism and German nazism are the main ones I was referring to over the past century. China has been an angel compared to the other two so far as deaths are concerned. Hitler was a socialist. National Socialist German Workers Party to be specific (which is where the term nazi comes from). I heard that Hitler and Stalin were cozy before Hitler double-crossed him and invaded russia. Stalin was hurt by this, or so I heard in some WWII documentary. If I am wrong, please correct me, don't attack me, for I am only relaying what I have heard, read or watched. Maybe I shouldn't lump all communist countries or ideologies together into one mold, but when you don't know of the difference between them, can I be blamed for asking? I've never taken communism 101 and I dropped my international politics class. This thread has been somewhat of a learning experience, actually.
I have heard the chinese schools teach the children negative things in their textbooks about the US. Is this true? This is not meant to be mean. Just another question to possibly debunk another thing I have heard.

I personally feel Clinton screwed us over real good. Dismantled our military and only spanked the mole(s) that was caught at our pentagon and then was sent home after being caught real quick-like with only a slap on the wrist. How nice of him. Would China do the same, or use him to get one of their own back. How about that nice lady Katrina Leung? Yes, America is no better. I'm sure we have many spies in China doing the same types of things. That's the world we live in I suppose.

I bid you good day, (or night, depending) and I thank you smurf for not just jumping on the "insult Orwell" bus. Actually, I've been wondering about China's intentions ever since they held our spy plane and military personnell in confinement back in 2001. I must admit, they were all treated well, cudos to China for that. I thought the crap was going to hit the fan that day.

I am not the bush supporter you think I am. Bush is a lousy commander in chief and Iraq may just be one of the biggest blunders ever. And Outsider, sorry you feel that way about me. Name a person I have attacked other than the what I considered an oppressive, abusive government. My comments have been focused primarily on the communist regimes that have killed millions, for that is all I really know of communism is the horror associated with it. I have tried to understand by reading the manifesto, but that doesn't help much as it is a tad outdated. The US, I fear has many problems that only we can fix ourselves, trial and error at the voting box.

And Outsider, some of the context of what I was saying was meant to be funny, or at least I was attempting humor often. Like when I mentioned Smurf would be proud I hadn't mentioned the c word. Yes, observant you are, I did mean to write it. Don't take everything so seriously, I don't, NORMALLY. :)

[The Smoking Man]

TSM, my cousin was just in shanghai for a number of months. When I spoke to her about it she cited a few examples of strong censorship that she considered ridiculous. For example, when the people she was staying with were watching television and the show was suddenly cut out (some sort of technical difficulty) just when a paticular part was coming on.. say... When a tank was about to drive over a person (no specific historical reference).

What's your response to that?
It's a crock.

Unless she can understand Chinese, why would the people she was 'staying with' be sitting there watching a 'TV show' she couldn't understand?

Do you think that ANYBODY would be this unfeeling as to throw on a TV show their guest couldnt understand and then ignore them?

You will find that most of the people watch DVDs and they are neither censored nor Government controled.

In fact, I have had movies prior to their western release with less censorship than the western theatre releases..

[The Smoking Man]

Chinese people in my opinion are "trained" to say that they love their country... this is does not take away the fact that some of them live in an element of fear and insecurity. But I think that is their problem to deal with. This does not give anyone the right to judge their country. It's like a left hander telling a right hander that they are stupid, or weird, or wrong. Being "right handed" does not mean "right" in the context of "right and wrong".

Who are we, really, to judge another persons problems when we haven't dealt with our own?

Yup.

I understand it is "chik" nowadays in the US to put on your Chez Guevarra shirt, pop open a bottle of red star beer and watch the demise of america. Sorry if I do not do the same, for I love my friends, my family and my country, even if it is still young in the eyes of the world. It is horrible what the US did to the indians too. My wife is part american indian and my step-father was part american indian and was also a member of our military. Two different tribes though. Blackfoot (wife) and Chippewa (step father).

See above.

Love and hate DO seem to be taught.

[The Smoking Man]

I bid you good day, (or night, depending) and I thank you smurf for not just jumping on the "insult Orwell" bus. Actually, I've been wondering about China's intentions ever since they held our spy plane and military personnell in confinement back in 2001. I must admit, they were all treated well, cudos to China for that. I thought the crap was going to hit the fan that day.Why? Did you think they would treat them like the Americans would and spirit them off to an island for torture somewhere?

Maybe you missed when the Chines embassy was bombed by the USA too and the reaction was far less than what the USA normally responds with?

[The Smoking Man]

The massive buildup of weapons by a communist country and purchases from russia I havent been able to see as a good thing. (please set me straight) It scares me quite frankly, just as the US power may scare the Chinese. I don't know if they are scared of the US, I'm just generalizing. Japan had similar military buildup prior to wwii. I understand China has soverign rights like any country so militaries and navies are normal, but such a rapid growth scares me personally, that and the Chinese-Russian pact and joint exercise. Is it for Taiwan only (if the US were to defend Tiawan) or I have wondered if the US part of the equation separate from Taiwan, scary. Japan had similarly massive military buildup prior to wwii. We know how that turned out.You answered your own question.

Fear.

This was something you should take note of in regard to the US actions in Iraq relative to the UN.

The UN was created to do away with the need for war. For the most part, it has done a fair job in removing the need by providing a forum for debate and for the passage of resolutions and imposing sanctions.

The USA seems to be opting out of these options and is going directly to armed conflict.

How do you think these actions are perceived even by your allies?

China has been blocked from purchasing arms based on an internal issue ... Tiananmen.

The USA has armed Taiwan to the teeth and has threatened China directly.

China isn't expecting to start a war. They are expecting to ANSWER to an attack which, by the actions of America in opting out of the UN process has become a real issue in the rest of the world.

Why do you think Iran is persuing the bomb?

Why is Pakistan persuing Nuclear Cruise?

Even those states that were previously a part of the coalition of the willing have been threatened and their personal 'space attacked or violated'. Think CIA ... think Italy.

You want a safe world? ... Put it back into your pants.

[The Smoking Man]

China has been an angel compared to the other two so far as deaths are concerned. Hitler was a socialist. National Socialist German Workers Party to be specific (which is where the term nazi comes from). I heard that Hitler and Stalin were cozy before Hitler double-crossed him and invaded russia. Stalin was hurt by this, or so I heard in some WWII documentary. If I am wrong, please correct me, don't attack me, for I am only relaying what I have heard, read or watched. Maybe I shouldn't lump all communist countries or ideologies together into one mold, but when you don't know of the difference between them, can I be blamed for asking? I've never taken communism 101 and I dropped my international politics class. This thread has been somewhat of a learning experience, actually.One of your major problems is that you are fond of labels and what people call themselves.

Do you know where Greenland got its name?

So tell me it's green.

So if you read the 'manifesto' where does it mention the words 'Gulag', or mass murder?

Maybe they should call themselves 'the green party'?

[The Smoking Man]

Chinese people in my opinion are "trained" to say that they love their country... this is does not take away the fact that some of them live in an element of fear and insecurity. But I think that is their problem to deal with. This does not give anyone the right to judge their country. It's like a left hander telling a right hander that they are stupid, or weird, or wrong. Being "right handed" does not mean "right" in the context of "right and wrong".I've been visiting here since '97 and living here for two years now.

The people here are least fearful of their government than any I have known.

The police don't even carry guns.

High security bank vans have security guards armed with rubber bullets and beanbag guns.

Ecconomically, the government hardly interferes with business as long as your taxes are paid.

Tell me what you see to fear here. I even feel nothing about walking the streets of Shanghai with a months wages in my pocket at midnight. Can you say the same for New York?

[Smurf]

My discussion was about communism in general and Russian communism and German nazism are the main ones I was referring to over the past century.Right, because they're exactly the same.Hitler was a socialist. National Socialist German Workers Party to be specific (which is where the term nazi comes from). I heard that Hitler and Stalin were cozy before Hitler double-crossed him and invaded russia. Stalin was hurt by this, or so I heard in some WWII documentary. If I am wrong, please correct me, don't attack me, for I am only relaying what I have heard, read or watched. This thread has been somewhat of a learning experience, actually.Okay Orwell. You just touched on my sweet spot, and you're rubbing it the wrong way. teeheehee

In Short: Yes, you're wrong. Very wrong.

Longer: Hitler was not socialist, even by the diluted western political meaning of the term, he was certainly not Marxist by a long shot. If you've read any of Hitler's publications, even Mein Kampf than you'll know that Hitler had fully planned to invade the soviet union as part of Lebensraum. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebensraum) Hitler and Stalin were worst enemies. When they signed a non-aggression pact in 1939 it completely shocked the world, but as we now know, it broke down in under a year and half when Hitler invaded the Soviet Union. I don't know what you mean by 'Stalin was hurt by this' but the first few months of the war were very favorable for the Germans, untill the battle of Stalingrad was won by the Russians and the Winter set in. After that the Germans were continuously being pushed back.

Hitler's use of the word socialist in his party name was entirely propoganda to gain support from the center-lefties who didn't quite want to vote communist. He promised quite a few socialist institutions that he never implemented and when his only socialist minister started bickering about it, he was killed during the night of the long knives. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_of_the_long_knives)

You should check out our ww2 thread (http://physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=85017) where me and boys are making historical commentary.
Maybe I shouldn't lump all communist countries or ideologies together into one mold, but when you don't know of the difference between them, can I be blamed for asking? I've never taken communism 101 and I dropped my international politics class. OKAY! CRASH COURSE IN COMMUNISM!!

1. You first have to realise that Communism is extremely controversial and everyone has their own opinion on what it is and should be. Also, every communist political leader in history has left behing his own distinct form of Communism, each quite different from eachother and from their common route: Marxism.

2. Socialism, in Marxist theory, is an economic and political system where most of the state power and production is controlled by popular collectives. In Marxist theory a state is supposed to evolve into a Socialist state and then from socialist into a communist state (utopia). Socialism is not Communism. Socialism has stayed a lot more true to it's original Marxist ideals than the term Communism, which has been highjacked time and time again so that these dictators can use it to gain support for their revolutions. However, that's not to say that socialism isn't a loaded term as many a times that term has been used to describe something non-Marxist as well.

Additional Reading:
Marxism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marxist)
Leninism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leninism)
Stalinism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalinism)
Trotskyism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trotskyism)
Maoism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maoism)
Socialism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism)
Ahhh, just for the sake of it.
Green Anarchism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_anarchism)

There, that should keep ya busy for a while. Get to learning 'bout good 'ol communism boy!

[The Smoking Man]

Right, because they're exactly the same.Okay Orwell. You just touched on my sweet spot, and you're rubbing it the wrong way. teeheehee

Oh, lay off him ... I think he still believs that Christians follow the teachings of Christ too.

Like ... how naive can you be?

[Smurf]

He Called Hitler Socialist! And it wasn't in the I-dare-you sort of way people usually say it just to piss socialists off.

[selfAdjoint]

He Called Hitler Socialist! And it wasn't in the I-dare-you sort of way people usually say it just to piss socialists off.

Hitler called his party the National Socialists. "Nazi" is just a shortened form of the German words for that. The fact that real historical cases don't conform to the pristine definitions in your head shouldn't caause you frenzy, but it should cause you to examine your preconceptions.

[Archon]

Hitler called his party the National Socialists. "Nazi" is just a shortened form of the German words for that. The fact that real historical cases don't conform to the pristine definitions in your head shouldn't caause you frenzy, but it should cause you to examine your preconceptions.
If by preconceptions you mean his belief in the fact that Hitler wasn't a socialist in any meaningful sense of the word, then I don't see a problem. If Hitler doesn't fit the definition of "socialist," then he wasn't a socialist. I could just as easily call Bush a socialist, because the U.S. government does sponser certain socialistic programs. He doesn't quite fit the defintion, but close enough, right?

[The Smoking Man]

He Called Hitler Socialist! And it wasn't in the I-dare-you sort of way people usually say it just to piss socialists off.Yeah ... well like I said earlier, it is easier to point out that there are more 'socialist programs' in western democratic countries than there are in 'communist nations'.

For example ... when Nike opens a sweat shop in some province in China, do you think the people there have the right to a 'Union'?

If you're sick in China, do you have the right to 'Universal Health Care'?

If you lose your job, are you entitled to state support?

NOPE, Nope and Nope.

This is in fact why it is that the USA builds factories here.

They are actually AVOIDING social programs that cut into the bottom line.

Other things are ... Building regs, zoning, reduced controls such as EPA guidlines, avoiding Chinese import tarriffs (Taxation that is paid to the Chinese govt.) etc.

America is more socialist than Nazi Germany ever was and China IS.

[Smurf]

Hitler called his party the National Socialists. "Nazi" is just a shortened form of the German words for that. The fact that real historical cases don't conform to the pristine definitions in your head shouldn't caause you frenzy, but it should cause you to examine your preconceptions.Actually Hitler's party was "National Socialist German Workers Party" (NSDAP) and he didn't take any part in naming it at all.

Hitler first discovered the party when he was still a Corporal in the Army. Army intelligence sent him to investiage the Actions of the German Workers Party (DAP), but he was impressed by the party and joined as member 555 (which is pretty funny if you consider the superstition about 666). Hitler wanted to rename the party and proposed "Social Revolutionary Party", but this was early and the party still had it's own goals outside of supporting Hitler as the Fuhrer. They insisted they continue to follow the path of the Austrian party Deutsche Nationalsozialistische Arbeiterpartei after whom they were modelled, so they renamed themselves National Socialist German Workers Party (NSDAP) at the suggestion of a Rudolf Jung, an Austrian Marxist who was also an influencial member of their Austrian counterpart. He died of starvation in Prague's Pankrác prison.

'Nazi' started as slang. It came about from the first two syllables of Nationalsozialist but spelled <zi> because the syllable <ti> is pernounced <tsi> and people thought it looked cooler if you spelled it with a <z>

[selfAdjoint]

Actually Hitler's party was "National Socialist German Workers Party" (NSDAP) and didn't take any part in naming it at all.

Hitler first discovered the party when he was still a Corporal in the Army. Army intelligence sent him to investiage the Actions of the German Workers Party (DAP), but he was impressed by the party and joined as member 555 (which is pretty funny if you consider the superstition about 666). Hitler wanted to rename the party and proposed "Social Revolutionary Party", but this was early and the party still had it's own goals outside of supporting Hitler as the Fuhrer. They insisted they continue to follow the path of the Austrian party Deutsche Nationalsozialistische Arbeiterpartei after whom they were modelled, so they renamed themselves National Socialist German Workers Party (NSDAP) at the suggestion of a Rudolf Jung, an Austrian Marxist who was also an influencial member of their Austrian counterpart. He died of starvation in Prague's Pankrác prison.

'Nazi' started as slang. It came about from the first two syllables of Nationalsozialist but spelled <zi> because the syllable <ti> is pernounced <tsi> and people thought it looked cooler if you spelled it with a <z>

I stand corrected. And did Hitler then, after the night of the long knives, when he got rid of a lot of the old party members, then change the name of the party because he didn't want to be identified as a socialist?

[The Smoking Man]

I stand corrected. And did Hitler then, after the night of the long knives, when he got rid of a lot of the old party members, then change the name of the party because he didn't want to be identified as a socialist?LOL ... Did Tony Blair change the name of the british Labour party when he made it conservative? Nope ... Just stuck a 'new' in front of it.

[Smurf]

I stand corrected. And did Hitler then, after the night of the long knives, when he got rid of a lot of the old party members, then change the name of the party because he didn't want to be identified as a socialist?
No, the National Socialist German Workers Party kept the name through it's entire life. But "Nazi" was inducted as a shorter form of the word, which was used much more frequently.

[The Smoking Man]

Just to reinforce the idea that this is NOT just a 'Chinese Thing (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050814/ap_on_re_as/asia_liberation_day)' ...Please note the picture (http://news.yahoo.com/photo/050814/481/kan10508140954&g=events/wl/081405vjdayjapan;_ylt=Akhj7OdMrSPD9JHmYjAwQCX9xg8F ;_ylu=X3oDMTA3bGk2OHYzBHNlYwN0bXA-) associated with this article to see how Japanese ultra rightists celebrate 'surrender'.
Asia Marks Anniversary of Japan Surrender

By HANS GREIMEL, Associated Press Writer
15/08/2005

Still stinging with anger and sorrow, Asians on Sunday marked the 60th anniversary of Japan's World War II surrender by honoring their dead, burning Rising Sun flags and demanding compensation amid rekindled tensions over Japanese abuses.

The occasion inspired a rare joint commemoration by North Korea and South Korea, and spurred protesters in Hong Kong to burn Japan's flag and march on Tokyo's consulate chanting "Down with Japanese imperialism!"

In the Philippines, elderly women once forced to act as sex slaves for Japanese soldiers renewed demands for compensation and apologies. Former Australian prisoners of war returned to the Thai jungles where they labored under brutal conditions to build the notorious Death Railway.http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050814/ap_on_re_as/japan_war_shrineJapan PM Warned Not to Visit War Shrine

By HANS GREIMEL, Associated Press WriterSun Aug 14, 4:13 PM ET

A key ally of Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi warned the leader Sunday not to visit a shrine that honors Japan's 2.4 million war dead, saying it would further undermine Japan's fragile ruling coalition as it heads into nationwide elections.

The caution came as a former Japanese premier and the country's current economy and trade minister worshipped at Tokyo's Yasukuni Shrine, amid mounting speculation Koizumi will also pray there as early as Monday to mark the 60th anniversary of Japan's surrender in World War II. A visit by Koizumi would almost certainly enrage China and South Korea, as convicted war criminals are among those honored at the shrine.

Further visits will only damage ties between Koizumi's Liberal Democratic Party and its ruling coalition partner, the New Komeito Party, especially in the run up to nationwide ballots on Sept. 11, New Komeito head Takenori Kanzaki warned Sunday.

"The LDP and New Komeito increasingly feel we should go for the majority. But if Koizumi goes, it will dampen that spirit," Kanzaki said on TV Asahi's Sunday Project news talk show. "It can't have good results for our campaign coordination."

Yasukuni honors Japan's deaths in wars from the late 1800s until 1945. But the shrine also lists among its "deities" the names of executed World War II criminals, such as wartime Prime Minister Hideki Tojo, and many in Asia believe the memorial glorifies Tokyo's imperialist past.

Koizumi has pledged to make annual visits to the shrine and has been there four times since becoming prime minister in April 2001. His last visit was in January 2004, and many Japanese officials, including Cabinet members, were expected to pay respects Monday.Thehe Japanese state that 'the Shrine is intended to honour the Japanese killed in battle'.

1068 of the people enshrined there were executed after the war for crimes against humanity.

They were NOT killed in battle. (http://edition.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/asiapcf/east/08/13/japan.shrine/) Where war criminals are venerated

Tuesday, January 14, 2003 Posted: 12:08 AM EST (0508 GMT)

The Yasukuni Shrine is dedicated to about 2.5 million people who have died in Japan's conflicts between 1853 and 1945.

Their names are inscribed in the shrine's Book of Souls, and venerated as "gunshin", or war gods.

In 1978, 1,068 convicted war criminals, among them executed wartime prime minister Hideki Tojo and 13 other Class A war criminals, were secretly enshrined there.

The shrine's authorities are reluctant to accept the verdict of war crimes tribunals, and history.

"War is a really tragic thing to happen, but it was necessary in order for us to protect the independence of Japan and to prosper together with Asian neighbors," explains a pamphlet published by the shrine, aimed at children.

Referring to the convicted war criminals, the pamphlet says: "Some 1,068 people, who were wrongly accused as war criminals by the Allied court, were enshrined here."
...
"Owing to the meritorious services of the spirits of the deities worshipped, the nation enjoys peace and security," the shrine explains on its website.It's sick.

[outsider]

I can see why China is so upset. I don't think the Nazis would've gotten away with this.
"War is a really tragic thing to happen, but it was necessary in order for us to protect the independence of Japan and to prosper together with Asian neighbors," explains a pamphlet published by the shrine, aimed at children.

Referring to the convicted war criminals, the pamphlet says: "Some 1,068 people, who were wrongly accused as war criminals by the Allied court, were enshrined here."

[The Smoking Man]

Here is an excellent example of the Japanese status of 'Pows (http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20050823/wl_asia_afp/japanchinawar_050823074803) '

For further background on the 'contest':The Nanjing "Murder Race"


Extracts from Harold Timperley's What War Means, London: V.Gollancz (1968)

________________________________________

On December 7, 1937, the Japan advertiser, an American-owned and edited English-language daily paper in Tokyo, published the following item:

SUB-LIEUTENANTS IN RACE
TO FELL 100 CHINESE
RUNNING CLOSE CONTEST

Sub-lieutenant Toshiaki Mukai and Sub-lieutenant Takeshi Noda, both of the Katagiri unit at Kuyung, in a friendly contest to see which of them will first fell 100 Chinese in individual sword combat before the Japanese forces completely occupy Nanking, are well in the final phase of their race, running almost neck to neck. On Sunday when their unit was fighting outside Kuyung, the "score", according to the Asahi, was: Sub-lieutenant Mukai, 89, and Sub-lieutenant Noda, 78.

On December 14, 1937, the same paper published the following additional report:

CONTEST TO KILL FIRST 100 CHINESE
WITH SWORD EXTENDED WHEN BOTH
FIGHTERS EXCEED MARK

The winner of the competition between Sub-lieutenant Toshiaki Mukai and Sub-lieutenant Iwao Noda to see who would be the first to kill 100 Chinese with his Yamato sword has not been decided, the Nichi Nichi reports from the slopes of Purple Mountain, outside Nanking. Mukai has a score of 106 and his rival has dispatched 105 men, but the two contestants have found it impossible to determine which passed the 100 mark first. Instead of settling it with a discussion, they are going to extend the goal by 50.

Mukai's blade was slightly damaged in the competition. He explained that this was the result of cutting a Chinese in half, helmet and all. The contest was "fun", he declared, and he thought it a good thing that both men had gone over the 100 mark without knowing that the other had done so.

Early Saturday morning, when the Nichi Nichi man interviewed the Sub-lieutenant at a point overlooking Dr. Sun Yat-sen's tomb, another Japanese unit set fire to the slopes of Purple Mountain in an attempt to drive out the Chinese troops. The action also smoked out Sub-lieutenant Mukai and his unit, and the men stood idly by while bullets passed overhead.

"Not a shot hits me while I am holding this sword on my shoulder", he explained confidently.

C h i n a N e w s D i g e s t
Europe/Pacific Regional News (CND-EP, No. EP97-015) August 1, 1997

[Daminc]

Bl**dy hell!

[The Smoking Man]

Bl**dy hell!Here is the link to the scans of the original newspaper articles (http://www.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/NanjingMassacre/NM5.gif). I can't believe the families tried to sue.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20050823/wl_asia_afp/japanchinawar_050823074803

In the runup to the notorious Nanjing massacre, a Japanese newspaper reported in 1937 with the tone of a sports story that two army lieutenants played a game on who would be the first to decapitate 100 Chinese soldiers.

The story was meant to boost morale in wartime Japan, but relatives of the two lieutenants, who were later executed, filed a lawsuit in 2003 saying the article was false.

Tokyo District Court Judge Akio Doi rejected the suit, saying, "The lieutenants admitted the fact that they raced to kill 100 people."

"We cannot deny that the article included some false elements and exaggeration, but it is difficult to say the article was fiction not based on facts," Doi told the court.

"Since a final historical assessment on whether the contest of killing 100 people has not yet been made, we cannot say (the article) was obviously false," he said.

Relatives of the two lieutenants sought a total of 36 million yen (330,000 dollars) in compensation from two newspapers: the Mainichi Shimbun, the forerunner of which ran the 1937 story, and the liberal Asahi Shimbun, which in 1971 ran an article saying the contest had taken place.

The Tokyo Nichinichi Shimbun, which later became the Mainichi Shimbun, ran the article with the headline, "Super record 100 cut down: Mukai at 106 vs Noda at 105. The two lieutenants go into a playoff."

It was referring to lieutenants Toshiaki Mukai and Tsuyoshi Noda, who were later executed by an Allied tribunal over the Nanjing massacre.

The plaintiffs included Chieko Mukai, the daughter of Toshiaki Mukai, who said the report was "groundless" and had tainted the two families' reputation.

[Daminc]

Humans are so inventive :devil:

Don't you find it odd that we're (collectively) capable of such things?

[The Smoking Man]

Humans are so inventive :devil:

Don't you find it odd that we're (collectively) capable of such things? :rofl: Beheadings or suing over the articles? :confused: :confused: :confused: