No! Not Church! [Archive] - Physics Forums

Stratosphere

Apr1-10, 05:01 PM

Evo

Apr1-10, 05:11 PM

MotoH

Apr1-10, 05:14 PM

Don't say that your parents are wrong in believing. That is bollocks and you should get slapped for that. If you don't want to go to church, then your parents should understand. As long as you are nice about it. As soon as you get angry with them, they will make your life hell.

mgb_phys

Apr1-10, 05:17 PM

A walkman and a very discrete headphone in the ear facing away from them ?

MotoH

Apr1-10, 05:21 PM

A walkman and a very discrete headphone in the ear facing away from them ?

That's disrespectful to the others in the church.

If you are forced to go, listen to the homily at least. There are always great lessons to be learned from them. You don't have to get the religious aspect from it, but they still make sense for every day life.

Greg Bernhardt

Apr1-10, 05:34 PM

Dembadon

Apr1-10, 05:43 PM

When I went to church with my parents when I was a kid, I thought about Star Wars. How awesome would it be to own an Imperial Speeder Bike and navigate the woods behind my house at blazing speeds? If I saw any stormtroo.... Sorry.:blushing:

On a more serious note; I think politely telling them that you do not share their affection for religion is the way to go. If your feelings are well delivered, they should understand. I can attest to the (relational) difficulty regarding this situation. However, it won't be as bad as you think. It will feel good to tell them - much better than sitting through services, about which you have little to no interest, taxing your imagination in an effort to conjure a new Star Wars/Star Trek scene to play out in your head. :smile:

Gad

Apr1-10, 05:49 PM

... They are somewhat intelligent people who just have never had a particular interest in science, which leads them to believe in a religion.

Any suggestions on what I should do? I'm 16 by the way in case it makes a difference.

I suggest you quit assuming reasons behind their belief and deal with YOUR problem! You sure have the choice of who you wanna be, but try to think/ read/ listen/ whatever, at least that would work your mind on your spare time... Oh by the way, I do physics, and I’m a believer from head to toe, in case it makes a difference :biggrin:

turbo

Apr1-10, 05:56 PM

I struggled with this for many years as a child. My parents were in a mixed marriage, in which my father had to sign a contract to agree that I would be raised Catholic. He was loathe to go back on that, but when I raised enough of a ruckus about hating the church, he backed me. I stopped going to church, and we spent our Sunday mornings driving around talking and sight-seeing, and in season, fly-fishing remote ponds and bogs.

Astronuc

Apr1-10, 06:06 PM

I'm having a bit of a problem. I live with a semi-religious family who think we have to go to church on Sunday. They obviously want me to go with them, I don't want to (I'm agnostic), I think the whole thing is really stupid yet I haven't REALLY told my parents what I think of their religion.

I really don't feel like having to argue with them over this, it'll get ugly really fast. I can defend my position fine, I might even be able to convince them even (or maybe not) that it's truly a silly thing to believe in. They are somewhat intelligent people who just have never had a particular interest in science, which leads them to believe in a religion.

Any suggestions on what I should do? I'm 16 by the way in case it makes a difference. Don't tell your parents that you think their beliefs are stupid. Simply state that you would prefer not to go to church. You might consider an exception for certain holidays.

If one wants one's parents to respect one's beliefs, then reciprocate. I suspect one's parents might enjoy the community and friendships, as well as the spirituality, of the church.

At 16 I simply told my parents that I would not be attending church. Prior to that, my brother and I would go to church with my mom, grab a cup of coffee and a donut, and then walk out the door on the other side of the building, return to the car, and spend an hour listening to American Top 40 with Casey Kasem. It was pretty decent during the early 70's. Then we found a better rock station.

Moonbear

Apr1-10, 06:33 PM

You might have wanted to bring this up with them at a time other than a major holiday celebration. It just makes the potential for hurt feelings and drama substantially greater than if it was an issue brought up over a regular Sunday mass.

I was a bit younger than you when I told my mother I was not going to go to church anymore and preferred to just sleep in. Unfortunately, there was no being spared the drama. I had told her before the Sunday she was planning to go to church, but she still insisted on waking me up Sunday morning to go to church. Arguments with sleepy teenagers never go well, but when I simply refused to get out of bed and get dressed for church, she only had two choices left, go without me or not go either. She finally went without me.

What really made no sense to me is that my mom was going to masses being held in memory of my father, but my father never went to church either. He agreed to be dragged along for Christmas and Easter, and there was always at least an hour of grumbling before or after mass about the greedy church just wanting to make money and not really caring about people.

But, still, a holiday when you're probably going to be expected to be around your family all day is probably not the day to have this fight. It won't kill you to just sit there and not pay any attention. If it drives you too crazy, just excuse yourself to the bathroom and take a long walk around outside instead. Or, do what I do the few times I'm obliged to accompany relatives to mass for some occasion...arrive as late as possible so it's standing room only, and as other latecomers arrive, especially people with children, be graceful about letting them squeeze in in front of you until you've gotten yourself squeezed right out the door. :biggrin:

Astronuc

Apr1-10, 07:22 PM

I'd recommend one sit down and have heart to heart talk with one's parents, as all children and parents should do over the years, especially after children pass puberty.

Most importantly, listen - with an open mind, and open heart.

And also importantly, one should express one's thoughts and beliefs, not to defend them, but to explain oneself. Reciprocally, one should allow one's parents to express their thoughts and beliefs, and not dismiss or disparage their beliefs. If one has not talked about this subject in detail, then perhaps one has misconceptions about what one's parents believe.

Stratosphere

Apr1-10, 07:47 PM

I had a feeling this thread would get quite a few posts. I'll respond soon, I just don't have the time right now to read them all.

russ_watters

Apr1-10, 09:10 PM

Jack21222

Apr1-10, 09:22 PM

I agree with your first piece of advice.

The OP is basically saying it is more trouble than it is worth to try to argue about it, and so already knows what to do: Suck it up and deal with it for the next year or two or 5 until you no longer live with them on a consistent basis (ie, when you go to college).

It's terrible that parents would do that to their kids, though. If they're good parents, they'll agree to respect his religion, or lack thereof.

My parents tried making me to go CCD (some kind of Catholic kids thing) when I was in 2nd grade. It was torture... I raised enough of a fuss that they quit making me go. If they wanted to indoctrinate me, they should have started sooner than 2nd grade.

rootX

Apr1-10, 09:31 PM

It's better not to argue. I tried but after few years started learning that it is best to avoid. But certainly don't hide what you think.

russ_watters

Apr1-10, 10:33 PM

It's terrible that parents would do that to their kids, though. If they're good parents, they'll agree to respect his religion, or lack thereof. No it isn't, no they won't. Kids are kids. By definition, they are not entitled to opinions about such things. Until you turn 18, your parents' job is to mold you into the person they think you should be.

Now a good parent will slowly loosten the leash as a kid approaches that magic number, but how much and on what topics is up to the discretion of the parents. If an 11:00 curfew is important to them for enforcing morality, so be it. If forcing church attendance is important to them for teaching morality, that's fine too.
My parents tried making me to go CCD (some kind of Catholic kids thing) when I was in 2nd grade. It was torture... I raised enough of a fuss that they quit making me go. If they wanted to indoctrinate me, they should have started sooner than 2nd grade. Definitely, I'd start earlier, but the two issues there are connected: they weren't strong/tough enough to start you early and they were way too weak in letting a 2nd grader bully them. And you've internalized that attitude and are feeding it back to the OP!It's better not to argue. I tried but after few years started learning that it is best to avoid. But certainly don't hide what you think....unless you have weak parents like Jack and can bully them! But I don't want to be either the screaming/whining kid in the grocery store nor the parent who can't properly control him. My perception is that this issue is a big and growing issue in society today.

rootX

Apr1-10, 10:55 PM

...unless you have weak parents like Jack and can bully them! But I don't want to be either the screaming/whining kid in the grocery store nor the parent who can't properly control him. My perception is that this issue is a big and growing issue in society today.

I started rebelling around 16-17 little by little. I understood my dependency on them so couldn't really have a strong independent opinions. But as I became more and more independent, I limited their abilities to influence my decisions or opinions which came at the cost of distancing myself from them a bit.

(I haven't discovered yet to pay them back for raising me. It was not perfect but they did their best. I guess time will come.. sooner or later when I will be able to return back some)

MotoH

Apr1-10, 11:00 PM

Children, by definition, do not want to sit still for an hour and listen to an old man talk. I had a hard time attending church when I was a youngin' so my parents brought matchbox cars for me to play with and keep quiet. Now it is me who is having a tough time dragging them to church!

rootX

Apr1-10, 11:03 PM

Children, by definition, do not want to sit still for an hour and listen to an old man talk.

There is a difference between

finding it boring or
questing/challenging what the old man is talking about.

DaveC426913

Apr1-10, 11:03 PM

No it isn't, no they won't. Kids are kids. By definition, they are not entitled to opinions about such things. Until you turn 18, your parents' job is to mold you into the person they think you should be.

Russ is right. At 16, it is your parents' responsibility to raise you in the manner they think best, not just in the manner you like. You will have your whole life to make your own decisions about your religious beliefs, but unless you learn about them, your decisions will be uninformed.

That being said, it is your responsibility to show them where and when you are prepared to go it alone. If you handle this thoughtfully and maturely, they may respect your wishes.

MotoH

Apr1-10, 11:05 PM

There is a difference between

finding it boring or
questing/challenging what the old man is talking about.

Because little kids know everything they need to know about what the priest/pastor/etc. is saying.

NeoDevin

Apr1-10, 11:08 PM

I told my mom (a devout Catholic) that I couldn't go anymore when I was 11. She was absolutely fine.

Not everyone's parents are so understanding (caution, contains some swearing)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8Aq00yJSxo

To the OP: You would know your parents better than any of us, and how they would react. You're 16, you probably have a couple more years yet before it's feasible for you to move out on your own. If you think there's a chance they could react poorly, it might be wiser to hold off on telling them, as they have the ability to make your life extremely miserable.
Definitely don't go into the conversation expecting or trying to convince them that they are wrong. That will only engender hostility.

rootX

Apr1-10, 11:17 PM

russ_watters

Apr1-10, 11:22 PM

I started rebelling around 16-17 little by little. I understood my dependency on them so couldn't really have a strong independent opinions. But as I became more and more independent, I limited their abilities to influence my decisions or opinions which came at the cost of distancing myself from them a bit. There's definitely an innate and necessary tension between teenagers and parents. In their teens, kids are capable of some independence while still learning to be independent/mature. It is built-into our brains to crave it because we need it. And it is built into our brains to be protective parents. (I haven't discovered yet to pay them back for raising me. It was not perfect but they did their best. I guess time will come.. sooner or later when I will be able to return back some) My theory on that is that you shouldn't pay your parents themselves back. They were just doing your job and the best way to pay them back is to do yours and raise good kids on your own.

That applies to things like paying for college, too. If parents can, they should. And the kids pay it back by paying it forward.

waht

Apr1-10, 11:35 PM

Russ is right. At 16, it is your parents' responsibility to raise you in the manner they think best, not just in the manner you like. You will have your whole life to make your own decisions about your religious beliefs, but unless you learn about them, your decisions will be uninformed.

That being said, it is your responsibility to show them where and when you are prepared to go it alone. If you handle this thoughtfully and maturely, they may respect your wishes.

This kind of thinking unfortunately often leads to abusing children, whether intentionally or unintentionally. A parent MUST realize that the mind of children and teens is extremely susceptible to believing what the parents tells them including the good and bad things.

Once a parent indoctrinates their children with anything (values, morality, religion, ideology, hatred) that will stay with them for a long time.

Once children mature it doesn't mean they will be able to make up their own minds. In fact, it's usually very painful for many people to break away from many things parents told them was OK.

DaveC426913

Apr2-10, 09:47 AM

This kind of thinking unfortunately often leads to abusing children, whether intentionally or unintentionally.
That does not mean it is wrong. You don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Parents raise children and instill in them their values.

A parent MUST realize that the mind of children and teens is extremely susceptible to believing what the parents tells them including the good and bad things.

They do realize that. That's the whole point of instilling values in them when they are young.

GreatEscapist

Apr2-10, 09:51 AM

I'm in the same boat. But you know, I really like church. One of my friends goes there, and we do math equations and stuff when we get really bored, but there's always something to be learned. And most of it ISN'T religious.
If you don't believe what the Bible tells you, think of it as story time. Stories always have a good point.
I wouldn't advise telling your parents off, if they're anything like my mom. You only have two years left, and it makes them happy. It's only an hour or so of your time. Do math. :D

Jack21222

Apr2-10, 10:09 AM

No it isn't, no they won't. Kids are kids. By definition, they are not entitled to opinions about such things. Until you turn 18, your parents' job is to mold you into the person they think you should be.

Now a good parent will slowly loosten the leash as a kid approaches that magic number, but how much and on what topics is up to the discretion of the parents. If an 11:00 curfew is important to them for enforcing morality, so be it. If forcing church attendance is important to them for teaching morality, that's fine too.
Definitely, I'd start earlier, but the two issues there are connected: they weren't strong/tough enough to start you early and they were way too weak in letting a 2nd grader bully them. And you've internalized that attitude and are feeding it back to the OP!...unless you have weak parents like Jack and can bully them! But I don't want to be either the screaming/whining kid in the grocery store nor the parent who can't properly control him. My perception is that this issue is a big and growing issue in society today.

You seem to have a strange belief that until a person is 17 years 364 days old, they're a "child" and not entitled to form an opinion about anything, but the instant they turn 18, they magically become adults.

Religion is a highly personal thing, and has little or nothing to do with morality. It has to do with believing something to be true with no evidence to support it. That is not something any parent should ever teach their child, and to FORCE them to believe in something for which there is no evidence is impossible. All a parent can do is force the child to go through the motions, and I stand by my original statement that that is a terrible thing.

I also object to you calling my parents "weak" because they were accepting of my atheism. If I had come out as gay instead of atheist, would you be calling them "weak" for not sending me to a psychotherapist to "heal" my homosexuality?

EDIT: If religion had supporting evidence, it would no longer be religion, but rather a science. Religion is based on faith, which, by definition, doesn't require evidence. Saying that there is no evidence for religion isn't intended as an insult, just a definition of the term for the purposes of my argument.

GreatEscapist

Apr2-10, 11:03 AM

Jack21222

Apr2-10, 11:34 AM

That was my family's rearing- kids aren't entitled to opinions.
And it's not so much that they can't have an opinion, as that *most* if not all, 16 and 17 year olds are smart, but not smart enough to figure everything out for themselves. So instead of making themselves high and mighty, and having grandiose opinions, they can shut up and learn more from other people. All teenagers are obviously smarter than their parents, but they should be able to deal with two years of having to listen and learn.
By the time they turn 18, they should be smart enough to know how to express their opinion.

I disagree with basically everything you just said. The biggest point I disagree with, though, is that 16 year olds best learn by "shutting up and listening, and not forming an opinion of their own." That's a TERRIBLE way to learn in my opinion.

Of course, I don't have any facts and studies to back that up, it's just my experience.

waht

Apr2-10, 11:41 AM

That does not mean it is wrong. You don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Parents raise children and instill in them their values.

They do realize that. That's the whole point of instilling values in them when they are young.

There are parents that want, and actively influence their children to stay with their religion/ideology once they grow up for as long as they are alive.

And then there are parents that say, it's my way or the high way until you are 18, then do whatever you want. The flaw with this logic is that it's very difficult to re-program your instilled values by then, and so most don't want to undertake it.

The instilled values can be good or bad. The good ones are treat others with respect, help someone in need, teach how to hunt, etc. The bad values are usually unfounded opinions like political parties, religions, beliefs in God, conspiracy theories, hatred toward another race or ethnicity,

One must realize this stuff is difficult to get rid of in adulthood once it was instilled in childhood/adolescence.

Therefore the Parents shouldn't force their opinions on young minds. Teach them how to think for themselves critically.

DaveC426913

Apr2-10, 11:42 AM

You seem to have a strange belief that until a person is 17 years 364 days old, they're a "child" and not entitled to form an opinion about anything, but the instant they turn 18, they magically become adults.
No, the instant they turn 18 they legally become adults.

You seem to have the strange belief that the day they turn 18 they're fully-formed and ready for the world. They're not really ready for the world until they're in their early 20's, but some are earlier starters. How they comport themselves will indicate this.

Religion is a highly personal thing, and has little or nothing to do with morality. It has to do with believing something to be true with no evidence to support it.
Religion is a personal thing once you're old enough to comprehend it.

And it has everything to do with morality. Minors are too young to understand that it's about the lessons, not about the stories. That will come in time.

That is not something any parent should ever teach their child, and to FORCE them to believe in something for which there is no evidence is impossible.
Nobody is FORCING anybody to believe. Parents teach their children the ways of the world. They also teach them not to steal and to eat their veggies. That is their job.

I also object to you calling my parents "weak" because they were accepting of my atheism. If I had come out as gay instead of atheist, would you be calling them "weak" for not sending me to a psychotherapist to "heal" my homosexuality?

Straw man. You shoot yourself in the foot as a debater. You want us to take you seriously, right?

rootX

Apr2-10, 11:54 AM

No, the instant they turn 18 they legally become adults.

You seem to have the strange belief that the day they turn 18 they're fully-formed and ready for the world. They're not really ready for the world until they're in their early 20's, but some are earlier starters. How they comport themselves will indicate this.

Religion is a personal thing once you're old enough to comprehend it.

And it has everything to do with morality. Minors are too young to understand that it's about the lessons, not about the stories. That will come in time.

Nobody is FORCING anybody to believe. Parents teach their children the ways of the world. They also teach them not to steal and to eat their veggies. That is their job.

Straw man. You shoot yourself in the foot as a debater. You want us to take you seriously, right?

You seem to be excessively biased towards parents ...

GeorginaS

Apr2-10, 11:55 AM

Therefore the Parents shouldn't force their opinions on young minds. Teach them how to think for themselves critically.

Assuming said parents know how to do that themselves. There is also this tendency to confer all sorts of intelligence and kind intentions on people who have procreated. While this is true for some people, it's certainly not true for all. Parents also instill bigotry, racism, hate, pettiness, stupidity and all sorts of other ideas on their offspring.

Setting all of that aside and addressing the OP, yes, respect your parents' beliefs, assuming they're not actively harming anyone else. Do not tell your parents -- or anyone else for that matter -- that their beliefs are stupid or unfounded or whatever other arguments you want to present to them to prove they're wrong. Talk about what you believe and why -- assuming they're the type of people who want to hear it and respect what you have to say. If not, suck it up, hush up, and go and sit quietly for an hour a week. It won't kill you. Plus, your mind is allowed to go wherever it wants. And, no, not all homilies have value. Not all spiritual leaders of organised congregations are fascinating people with valuable insights.

I strongly disagree that kids aren't "entitled" to opinions. They most certainly are. If they're thinking creatures at all, they have and are forming ideas about the world around them. Helping kids to distinguish between useful and valid opinions and not is a good thing to teach. Teach them to understand that opinions need substantiation in order to be worthwhile and that opinions born of nothing more than some sort of knee jerk reaction carry no weight and have little to no real value is another good thing to teach them. So, but, first, you need to hear and listen to the opinions your kids are forming in order to have reasonable discussions about them. It's not a question of entitlement. It's a fact that their brains are working.

And with all of that in mind, I meet more grown-ups who spew the words, "It's my opinion and I'm entitled to it" with nothing whatsoever to back it up. I wonder, then, how do they help their kids through that thought-bog. And maybe, just maybe, if their parents had "entitled" them to have an opinion when they were a kid, they could have worked on fleshing out the ideas together. Maybe.

rootX

Apr2-10, 12:40 PM

kAIpRRZvnJg
I have posted this before but seems appropriate for this thread.

GreatEscapist

Apr2-10, 12:45 PM

I disagree with basically everything you just said. The biggest point I disagree with, though, is that 16 year olds best learn by "shutting up and listening, and not forming an opinion of their own." That's a TERRIBLE way to learn in my opinion.

Nonono. They should get opinions, but there's a difference between expressing their opinions, and letting kids think that their opinions are the only ones, which IS what they usually do. It's kind of more of a precaution than not letting them think for themselves.

Jack21222

Apr2-10, 12:54 PM

Straw man. You shoot yourself in the foot as a debater. You want us to take you seriously, right?

Lets look at two scenarios, and you tell me the difference between them.

1) A teenager tells his parents he is an atheist. The parents insist that he goes to church against his will in an attempt to rid him of his atheism. They refuse to accept his beliefs.

2) A teenager tells his parents he is gay. The parents insist that he goes to a psychotherapist against his will in an attempt to "cure" his homosexuality. They refuse to accept his sexual orientation.

To me, it seems that scenario 1 is commonly accepted, but scenario 2 is taboo. Maybe I'm wrong about that.

Stratosphere

Apr2-10, 01:34 PM

Try telling them that you understand their desire to go to church, but that you no longer believe in it and would rather not go.

Avoid discussions of who is right and who is wrong. Don't belittle their beliefs or feelings. This is about your beliefs only. Hopefully they will respect your decision.

I told my mom (a devout Catholic) that I couldn't go anymore when I was 11. She was absolutely fine.

Good luck to you.

I could try that but I don't think I'll get away without explaining my self thoroughly. I would have to tell them why I didn't believe it anymore.

Don't tell your parents that you think their beliefs are stupid. Simply state that you would prefer not to go to church. You might consider an exception for certain holidays.

If one wants one's parents to respect one's beliefs, then reciprocate. I suspect one's parents might enjoy the community and friendships, as well as the spirituality, of the church.

At 16 I simply told my parents that I would not be attending church. Prior to that, my brother and I would go to church with my mom, grab a cup of coffee and a donut, and then walk out the door on the other side of the building, return to the car, and spend an hour listening to American Top 40 with Casey Kasem. It was pretty decent during the early 70's. Then we found a better rock station.

I won't tell them I think their beliefs are stupid, but it may come across that way. I have really grown to detest religion. Maybe it's because when I realized that the stuff couldn't be true it was when I was growing to be more and more religious. I went into a period where I was in cognitive dissonance. It really pissed me off that I was born into the religion and not given a choice. Ever since then I've found more and more reasons to dislike the church.

I agree with your first piece of advice.

The OP is basically saying it is more trouble than it is worth to try to argue about it, and so already knows what to do: Suck it up and deal with it for the next year or two or 5 until you no longer live with them on a consistent basis (ie, when you go to college).

I think I just may have to force my self to church to avoid the confrontation. I have a good relationship with my parents and really wouldn't want to ruin it. I've told them I didn't believe a lot of the stuff in the bible and they didn't take it too well (a while ago).

Not everyone's parents are so understanding (caution, contains some swearing)

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/P8Aq00yJSxo&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/P8Aq00yJSxo&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

Don't worry my parents aren't nearly as bad as that.

You seem to have a strange belief that until a person is 17 years 364 days old, they're a "child" and not entitled to form an opinion about anything, but the instant they turn 18, they magically become adults.

I consider myself to have a mental age far above my chronological age. This isn't something I took lightly.

Jimmy Snyder

Apr2-10, 01:39 PM

When I was 16 I attended synagogue every Friday night, while my parents never attended services. It was totally a social thing for me as I had a lot of friends who also went. The ceremony consisted of dull routine prayers and hymns, interupted by a swell sermon as our Rabbi was good at it. My beliefs had nothing to do with it.

rasmhop

Apr2-10, 02:24 PM

By the time they turn 18, they should be smart enough to know how to express their opinion.
The age at which they are smart enough is highly variable. Some are 10, others are 25. Also it isn't a binary switch. As you start to become more mature and critically thinking you become better at forming your own worldview. If you have never had any experience of forming or arguing about opinions until you are 18, then you won't be ready to express your opinion when you are 18 because it doesn't magically develop overnight. It slowly grows and you refine it over a period of many years.

Nonono. They should get opinions, but there's a difference between expressing their opinions, and letting kids think that their opinions are the only ones, which IS what they usually do. It's kind of more of a precaution than not letting them think for themselves.

I totally agree that kids should get a wider perspective and realize that there are different ways of looking at the world. However this is mainly the parents responsibility to show them. Having your kid go to church every Sunday, and considering other views and independent thought taboo is not a good way to stimulate an open mind. How many Christian parents take their children to mosques? How many Christian parents are open to the idea that they may be wrong? Kids are often much more open than their parents.

I consider the approach my parents took to be good (but of course I'm biased as they taught me to appreciate their approach). They informed me from a young age that they believed in (a Christian) god, but didn't necessarily expect me to do the same. They urged me to remain agnostic until I could see things in a greater perspective and even then consideration of alternatives is always healthy. They told me a bit about religion and when they realized that I wasn't really all that receptive they bought some short accounts of various religions and informed me that they were on our bookcase in case I was curious about any of them. If I wanted it to be a personal consideration I could just read them when I was home alone. Around age 12 I informed them that I considered myself an atheist and they were fine with it. We still get along fine. Parents should help you form your own views in an informed manner; not impose their own views on you.

Stratosphere: You're in a pretty bad situation unfortunately. Only you can predict the outcomes of you "coming out" as a non-believer. Some parents are surprisingly receptive while others can't tolerate such differences. I'd probably suck it up and just go to church as I wouldn't want a bad relationship with my parents (at least while I still lived with them). Maybe try dropping small hints to see what their reaction would be. It's sad that it has to be this way, but unfortunately sometimes you have to choose between the lesser of two evils.

rootX: Nice video. Though I'm afraid it's probably a case of preaching to the choir. People already supportive of independent thought will like it, and people stuck in their views will dismiss it as inapplicable to their case.

I really don't see why people consider kids Christians, Muslims, Atheists, or whatever until they have expressed the fact that they believe in this. These are all beliefs and not something you sign up for or is born into. If I had a kid I wouldn't go around talking about how he is a Marxist, but people do that with religions. Children are by default agnostic.

GeorginaS

Apr2-10, 02:47 PM

Children are by default agnostic.

Nah. Children by default subscribe to magical thinking.

Jack21222

Apr2-10, 03:31 PM

Nah. Children by default subscribe to magical thinking.

On the other hand, one of the posters here made a thread about his niece who devised a scientific way to determine whether or not there is a tooth fairy. We also need to be careful with how we use the word "children." In this thread, the same word has been used to describe 7 year olds and 17 year olds. That term seems overbroad.

MotoH

Apr2-10, 03:37 PM

Why? 7 year olds and 17 year olds both believe they know everything they need to know.

DaveC426913

Apr2-10, 03:41 PM

You seem to be excessively biased towards parents ...
What a strange thing to say.
It's like saying "you seem excessively biased towards lawfulness", or "you seem excessively biased toward good health".

This is not a "two sides of the table" situation. The parents are in charge of instilling values in their children until such time as the children are mature enough to go on their own.

Lets look at two scenarios, and you tell me the difference between them.

Do you know what a straw man is? It is an attempt to shift a weak argument to a stronger argument. If you have an argument about religion, argue it. If you wish instead to argue about homosexuality, start a new thread.

DaveC426913

Apr2-10, 03:51 PM

Why? 7 year olds and 17 year olds both believe they know everything they need to know.Yup. Which is why virtually all societies recognize that it is the parents' job to guide their values.

I think we all agree that parents start off making all the decisions for their children (no one here is going to argue that a 3-year-old does not know best about playing on the stove top, or poking a cat with a sharp stick).

The only thing we do not agree on is at what age the child is mature enough to make certain decisions for himself.

Is there anyone who disagrees with this?
(I'm hoping if we reach consensus on this we can re-establish a new baseline for the discussion.)

waht

Apr2-10, 04:14 PM

rootX

Apr2-10, 04:23 PM

Monique

Apr2-10, 04:29 PM

Children under 18 need to respect their parent's opinions, but parents also need to respect the opinion of the child. I can't believe people think it would be normal to force a certain opinion on an adolescent.

The time when you are an adolescent is very important in your transition to become an adult: you need to be able to make your own decisions. The role of the parents should be to guide those decisions and set certain boundaries.

rasmhop

Apr2-10, 04:29 PM

Yup. Which is why virtually all societies recognize that it is the parents' job to guide their values.

I think we all agree that parents start off making all the decisions for their children (no one here is going to argue that a 3-year-old does not know best about playing on the stove top, or poking a cat with a sharp stick).

The only thing we do not agree on is at what age the child is mature enough to make certain decisions for himself.

Is there anyone who disagrees with this?
(I'm hoping if we reach consensus on this we can re-establish a new baseline for the discussion.)
I disagree somewhat. Firstly there is no universal age where a child is mature. Age does not measure maturity even though it's often correlated. It's like asking at what color food is cooked. It really depends on the type of food. Similarly the age depends on the type of individual and the kind of upbringing he has had.

Secondly it's not as binary as you make it out to be. There are several approaches to teaching a kid not to touch the stove. At one extreme you may let him actually touch it and learn that it's hot (I do not recommend this). At the other extreme you just take him away from the stove or scold him every time he approaches it. However it's possibly to explain to a kid that it hurts if he touches the stove, and then even many young kids have the ability to deduce that they do not want to touch the stove. You give them information about the world (touching a stove hurts) and tries to help them make their choices depending on this. Of course if the child in question decides to touch the stove you should of course intervene. For some decisions you need to be a bit more mature, but at an age of about 10 I expect the average child can handle most decision if guided by their parents (as in the parents support the child, try not to be biased, and provide the necessary information to make the right choice).

Sometimes you let a child make part of a decision. Sometimes you make the child think he made the decision by himself. Sometimes you explain why one decision would be bad.

Dembadon

Apr2-10, 04:32 PM

The only thing we do not agree on is at what age the child is mature enough to make certain decisions for himself.
Are 22 year old suicide bombers considered mature and able to make their own decisions?
I believe "certain" is an important element in Dave's claim. He did not suggest all decisions made by an individual are wise.

Would a +30 years old always make wiser/more mature decisions than a 3 years old?

Again, what kind of decisions?

DaveC426913

Apr2-10, 04:36 PM

I disagree somewhat. Firstly there is no universal age where a child is mature. Age does not measure maturity

Woah, woah woah. I never said anything about any unilateral age. That will of course, be the next thing under discussion.

I am simply trying to establish that we all concede that, at some point in a child's life, its parents make all its decisions for it, and that these decisions are downloaded* one-by-one to the child at some appropriate time.

The only issue in contention here then, is at what point any given decision is handed to the child.

*downloaded like financial budget responsibilities, not like software. We get that a lot here in Ontario.

zomgwtf

Apr2-10, 04:57 PM

I have to say I disagree with you Dave, it's not the parents job to instill any such values into their children. It's the parents job to help the children make their own INFORMED DECISIONS.

That's at least what being a parent means to me. Sure parents do make decisions for children at a young level of maturity but this is not the same as saying that the parents are merely MAKING the decisions for the children. Hopefully they are fully explaining such decisions and the consequences etc. such that as the child grows they can continue to make their own personal informed decisions on the matter, regardless of if it is in line with what the parents would have done in the same situation.

Religion in MY opinion does not fall under this category. (of needing parents telling children what to do) Most religious scripture forbids forcing religion on to any person and they also agree that the religion finds the person not the other way around. It is not the duty of the parents to force the child to attend church as this really has no impact on the childs life. This is not at all the same as the stove example that has been given...

As well saying that religion is all about the morals etc. is a rediculous way to justify forcing your children to attend religious studies or anything of the sort. I can assure you, I never really went to church however I have studied many of religions on my own time. My step-father is an athiest and my mother is a Catholic. My morals are grounded on my personal philosophy of life I've developed and that's that. Nothing religious about it and I do not need to hear it come from someone older than myself to know it's ok for me to have those morals, or to hear them come out of a book or off a page. I've had these views on life since I was a young teen, I'm now 21. It's safe to say that if I saw you struggling with something on the street that I would offer to help you.

rasmhop

Apr2-10, 05:55 PM

Woah, woah woah. I never said anything about any unilateral age. That will of course, be the next thing under discussion.
Maybe I misunderstood you, but you wrote:
"The only thing we do not agree on is at what age the child is mature enough to make certain decisions for himself."
This to me seems to implicitly assume that we can find a universal such age (or at least close to). Otherwise I would be inclined to answer the question with 1day old - 150 years, depending on the individual and the decision to be made. Sorry if I misunderstood you.

I am simply trying to establish that we all concede that, at some point in a child's life, its parents make all its decisions for it, and that these decisions are downloaded* one-by-one to the child at some appropriate time.
Of course at some age parents make all decisions about beliefs. For instance a 3 minute old baby will not decide a whole lot by itself.

The only issue in contention here then, is at what point any given decision is handed to the child.
Well yes, but honestly I don't see the relevance of this. Especially since it would be a case-by-case decision. Remember we're talking about a 16-year old person having opinions and beliefs, not a 3-year old being taught about stoves. In my opinion as soon as you're able to form your own opinions you're mature enough to have your own opinions. Your parents may comment on your opinions and try to provide the perspective that you may lack, but they should never force opinions on you.

union68

Apr2-10, 06:38 PM

I can only speak from personal experience, but I think the reason some religious parents will "force" their views onto their children is because they're genuinely afraid that their children will not be "saved," "go to hell," etc.

I brought my mother to tears when I was 15 or 16 and decided to tell her that I was a non-believer. My mom is an absolute sweetheart, and she never told me I was wrong, but I still hurt her pretty badly.

These days, I'll go to church with my parents every once in a while since my school happens to be in my hometown and I live only a couple miles away. It really doesn't bother me, and I know it means a lot to them if I'm there.

zomgwtf

Apr2-10, 06:51 PM

I can only speak from personal experience, but I think the reason some religious parents will "force" their views onto their children is because they're genuinely afraid that their children will not be "saved," "go to hell," etc.

This is true but it must also be understood by your parents that this is only a belief, and it's not some phenomena on Earth which has direct implications.

Teaching your child not to touch boiling water or opening the oven is vastly different that teaching them to fear/love a god. If they don't understand this then that's a true shame.

DaveC426913

Apr2-10, 07:04 PM

In my opinion as soon as you're able to form your own opinions you're mature enough to have your own opinions. Your parents may comment on your opinions and try to provide the perspective that you may lack, but they should never force opinions on you.
Not forcing opinions on you, but keeping you learning until your opinions are informed.

My boy decided he hated math in Grade 4. Should he have had the right to decide to stop learning math?

zomgwtf

Apr2-10, 07:08 PM

Not forcing opinions on you, but keeping you learning until your opinions are informed.

My boy decided he hated math in Grade 4. Should he have had the right to decide to stop learning math?

You don't believe in math, you utilize it and it's a very usefull tool. As well the person in question is not in grade 4 he's 16 years old. In fact in some areas of the world they WOULD respect their childs point of view that math isn't worth the time because there are more important and usefull things for them to pursue.

MotoH

Apr2-10, 07:10 PM

Not forcing opinions on you, but keeping you learning until your opinions are informed.

My boy decided he hated math in Grade 4. Should he have had the right to decide to stop learning math?

Oh, well he is old enough to make a decision on whether he doesn't like religion or not, so he must be old enough to not take any more math classes! It makes all the sense in the world. /sarcasm

Little kids need decisions made for them. When I was younger, if my parents gave me the opportunity to decide for myself, I darn near always made the wrong decision.

My parents let me dress myself when I was little. I would walk down wearing shorts every day of winter. I was then told to go put pants on. You see, I was giving the opportunity to make my own decision, but I was not informed enough to make a smart decision, and would have been better off if my parents made that decision in the beginning.

DaveC426913

Apr2-10, 07:11 PM

You don't believe in math, you utilize it and it's a very usefull tool.
Tell that to a child.

This is precisely the issue we are talking about: I don't see the point in this therefore I will stop learning it. And that's that.

Unless the child has wise, firm and patient parents.

DaveC426913

Apr2-10, 07:12 PM

Oh, well he is old enough to make a decision on whether he doesn't like religion or not, so he must be old enough to not take any more math classes! It makes all the sense in the world. /sarcasm
Sorry, how do you get that from what I said???

Did you not get the point that we don't allow children to just willy nilly decide what they should learn?

MotoH

Apr2-10, 07:14 PM

Sorry, how do you get that from what I said???

Did you not get the point that we don't allow children to just willy nilly decide what they should learn?

I was backing up your point, although it was rather weak.

waht

Apr2-10, 07:15 PM

Also the problem of coming out as atheist/agnostic is vastly different than just switching to a different religion. As far as I know, most Christians perceive atheism as immoral.

They think that morality comes from the bible, or any other source of religion. That's why it's ok to be religious.

It then follows if you are atheist/agnostic you are immoral, and so have a potential to do bad deeds.

That's why to many teens coming out as an atheist is comparable as if coming out gay. It's very painful in most cases. It's painful because of the parent's flawed perception, and lack of understanding.

Parents must realize that morality does NOT come from the bible, nor from any other source of religions. Sure there stories, and allegories, but that's not why we act morally.

union68

Apr2-10, 07:20 PM

This is true but it must also be understood by your parents that this is only a belief, and it's not some phenomena on Earth which has direct implications.

But, they do believe that. That's my whole point. What I do in this life does have a direct affect on my "afterlife." From this comes the fear mentioned in my first post.

zomgwtf

Apr2-10, 07:22 PM

Tell that to a child.

This is precisely the issue we are talking about: I don't see the point in this therefore I will stop learning it. And that's that.

Unless the child has wise, firm and patient parents.

Yes, I understand your point. My point is that this is NOT comparable to religion and neither is MotoH's point about wearing shorts in winter. A better comparison would be of a father forcing his child to accept that there is a dragon living in all the garages and they sometimes randomly kill people who don't believe it exists. Would the parent be right in forcing the child to believe this against their will? People tend to consider this as 'extreme' but in my opinion it is no more extreme. If you want to discuss about specific beliefs that morals come out of would it be ok to attempt to force a child to believe in the Flying Spaghetti monster? NO.

People seem to take it easy on the 'mainstream' 'big' religions of the world. WHY?

None of this relates to the OP however sooo maybe time for a new thread huh?

zomgwtf

Apr2-10, 07:26 PM

But, they do believe that. That's my whole point. What I do in this life does have a direct affect on my "afterlife." From this comes the fear mentioned in my first post.

Exactly my point. They BELIEVE that.

Believe:
accept as true; take to be true.

Your PARENTS take it to be true and they should respect the choice of their child to NOT believe as well... or believe in something else for that matter.

Parenting has no place in enforcing BELIEFS in children.

In short, they can be scared for you all they want and they can try to preach to you but they MUST respect your belief and they should never try to force it down your throat because you do not accept it.

DaveC426913

Apr2-10, 07:26 PM

Yes, I understand your point. My point is that this is NOT comparable to religion and neither is MotoH's point about wearing shorts in winter.
Why do you think it's not the same? A minor cannot make an informed decision until he's learned enough to do so. The parents are the only oens (not to mention the designated ones) to decide how much.

None of this relates to the OP however sooo maybe time for a new thread huh?
Sure it does. Don't see how it's not directly related.

DaveC426913

Apr2-10, 07:29 PM

Your PARENTS take it to be true and they should respect the choice of their child to NOT believe as well... or believe in something else for that matter.

Parenting has no place in enforcing BELIEFS in children.

It's not about belief; it's about education.

It is the parents' job to educate until the children are informed enough.

zomgwtf

Apr2-10, 07:40 PM

It's not about belief; it's about education.

It is the parents' job to educate until the children are informed enough.

Education does not mean enforcing a particular dogma. Not in my vocabulary. Neither does helping to make informed decisions in life. This seems more like Propaganda and I think I'm coming close to falling victim to Godwin's Law.

zomgwtf

Apr2-10, 07:43 PM

Sure it does. Don't see how it's not directly related.

So if the OP had instead posted that he's a 16 year old and his parents attend the church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster but he doesn't want to attend and he doesn't believe such a thing exist in real life, as his parents do, then you would be enforcing the same sort of 'YOUR PARENTS TELL YOU WHAT TO DO AND YOU LISTEN BOY! ITS FOR YA OWN GOOD!' attitude??? As though this teen is not eligible to make their own decision on their own personal beliefs on whether or not such a thing exist?

And you would think that the OPs decision not to believe in the FSM is the same as your grade 4 child thinking math is useless? That's rediculous.

EDIT: and this isn't to show an example of what your attitude toward the OP actually is, only to show that this thread has swerved off topic and I think it should be discussed in a ne thread. As well I editted my earlier post did you read what I had added? I think it happened while you were posting.

Second EDIT: I think your point of view is that the parents can decide to instill whatever beliefs they want in their children? I do not believe in this at all and I feel as though I can criticize how other people raise their children all I want. In fact I feel that if a child is in such a situation it is borderline abuse and I would have no problem helping them out.

union68

Apr2-10, 07:58 PM

Exactly my point. They BELIEVE that.

Believe:
accept as true; take to be true.

Your PARENTS take it to be true and they should respect the choice of their child to NOT believe as well... or believe in something else for that matter.

Parenting has no place in enforcing BELIEFS in children.

In short, they can be scared for you all they want and they can try to preach to you but they MUST respect your belief.

I did not want to portray my parents as a set of iron-fisted dictators that -- judging by the tone of your posts -- is what I think you think all conservative Christian parents are.

I was merely trying to point out that the "forcing" of beliefs may not always come from the parents' intolerance of other views or their desire to futher some evil dogma. Rather, it may come from a sincere worry about their child's well-being.

Can you take the taste of your own medicine? Would you be cool if your child grew up and accepted Christianity?

Jack21222

Apr2-10, 08:00 PM

Do you know what a straw man is? It is an attempt to shift a weak argument to a stronger argument. If you have an argument about religion, argue it. If you wish instead to argue about homosexuality, start a new thread.

My argument is there is no real difference between the two scenarios I just mentioned. A straw man is when I set up a weak argument and claim that it is my opponent's actual argument, then destroy the "straw man."

That is NOT what I did in that case. I asked why it is more acceptable to "come out" as gay than it is to come out as atheist. Why should an atheist teenager not have the right to be atheist, but a gay teenager should be respected?

You're the one that points out that I'd have a "stronger argument" if the OP was considering coming out as gay instead of atheist. Why should that be a stronger argument? Shouldn't they be the same?

It's not about belief; it's about education.

RELIGION IS ABOUT BELIEF, BY DEFINITION. Unless we can use the same definitions for the same words, we can't talk.

Can you take the taste of your own medicine? Would you be cool if your child grew up and accepted Christianity?

I know this wasn't directed at me, but I'll answer: I'd be cool with it. I'd hope it's a phase they grow out of, but I don't see how that would affect me in any way whatsoever.

Leptos

Apr2-10, 08:05 PM

I'm surprised that there's this many religious people on a technical forum, but I guess religiosity is prevalent among all humans.

MotoH

Apr2-10, 08:09 PM

I'm surprised that there's this many religious people on a technical forum, but I guess religiosity is prevalent among all humans.

What, are we supposed to believe that the world is flat, and the stars are on a giant sphere? I cant think of anything more enlightening than finding the secrets of Gods awesome universe. (but that is a different discussion for a different day)

I would be very disappointed in my child if he/she decided to not believe in God, and I would pray for them to find the light. But I wouldn't force them to go to church. That would make them view the church in disdain because it is the place "my parents make me go and I hate it"

zomgwtf

Apr2-10, 08:11 PM

I did not want to portray my parents as a set of iron-fisted dictators that -- judging by the tone of your posts -- is what I think you think all conservative Christian parents are.
Are you putting words into my mouth? Yes, I think you are. I never said anything about your parents being iron-fisted dictators and I never said anything about conservative Christians. :rofl: Go back and read ALL the posts (apparently this will be the first time) if you think that I'm portraying your parents specifically as 'iron-fisted dictators'.

Can you take the taste of your own medicine? Would you be cool if your child grew up and accepted Christianity?

No, I wouldn't care. In fact my girlfriend of 2 years decided to accept Christianity about a year ago. I don't understand how this is 'my own medicine' though.