Is premerital SEX immoral

[Saint]

I'm a chinese, my parents taught me that sex before marriage is immoral.
This is typical oriental thinking passed down to us based on Confucianism.

I don't think all Western people have the opposite view, some religious people in the west are also very strict not to have sex before marriage.

What do you think about this question? :wink:

[chroot]

I think each person has a right to make his/her own decision and not be pestered by anyone about it.

- Warren

[Evo]

I agree with chroot, it should be up to the individual.

[aychamo]

Sex before marriage is necessary. You don't want to marry a girl who sucks in the sack :)

[Civilian2]

Test drive is very important ;)

you could argue either way, at least I could, I feel, effectively.

I'm not going to bother lol.

But here is an article that might point out something in modern mentalities on the subject.

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/08/18/1092765021674.html

It seems the Chinese are the most keen on sex ( I wonder where the evidence is? :rolleyes: ) but less likely to be promiscuous...

[Saint]

You can have Masterbation to satiate your sexual desire before marriage.
And SEX is not Everything for marriage, there are many other factors more essential to foster a happy marriage.

God of Bible forbid SEX before marriage, and one man shall marry only one wife unless she died earlier, then the man can marry again.

Sex before marriage is SIN according to the moral standard of Holy Bible.
This Sin will be judged by God and sentenced to eternal fire unless you repent and never do it again and accept Jesus Christ as your personal Savior.

Marry a wife in holy way, and have Holy Sex after wedding will give you more Happiness than being promiscuous.

[BoulderHead]

Is premerital SEX immoral?
No, but premarital sex may be, and it is also immortal, lol. :biggrin:

Marry a wife in holy way, and have Holy Sex after wedding will give you more Happiness than being promiscuous.
That’s exactly what I did, but I kept getting caught by my wife! :rofl:

[aychamo]

You can have Masterbation to satiate your sexual desire before marriage.
And SEX is not Everything for marriage, there are many other factors more essential to foster a happy marriage.

God of Bible forbid SEX before marriage, and one man shall marry only one wife unless she died earlier, then the man can marry again.

Sex before marriage is SIN according to the moral standard of Holy Bible.
This Sin will be judged by God and sentenced to eternal fire unless you repent and never do it again and accept Jesus Christ as your personal Savior.

Marry a wife in holy way, and have Holy Sex after wedding will give you more Happiness than being promiscuous.

Wow, what a kind and loving god your worship that would create you as a human which craves sex and then sentence you to eternal fire for fulfilling the desires that the very same god put into you.

There is nothing wrong with premarital sex.

God of Bible forbid...

I just wanted to quote this one part, as it always makes me laugh. The bible tells you that God is true. God tells you the bible is true. Doesn't that seem circular?

[chroot]

To all participants,

Please resist the temptation to let this thread devolve from a moral question to a religious question, as religious dicussion is not permitted on physicsforums.com.

Saint,

It's a lovely sentiment that you've found happiness in your beliefs, and wish others to be so happy. However, it's quite wrong of you to assert that your value system is the only correct one. Many people -- perhaps most, in some places -- do not care one whit what the bible says. These people are well within their rights to do what they like, whatever risk of eternal damnation you feel they are under. Bedrooms are commonly built with doors for a reason -- learn to stay out of other peoples' bedrooms.

- Warren

[humanino]

I very much agree with aychamo. I think it is very important NOT to postpone your first experiments to after your wedding. Sex is like anything else : you learn it, you improve at it. Don't start learning at 25, that would be a loss of time. Besides Saint, masturbation is far less good than actual sex.

As for the bible you are quoting. Please be aware that the bible is a very OLD book that had to deal with social issues at the beginning. Society has deeply changed, and the bible is no longer adequate. Religious belief are something, but their should be a very small implication on your everyday life. If your religious believes turn into a dangerous constraint for your physical or mental health, maybe you should question these old rules.

Do you know how late the Pope is as regards to society ? Let me give you an example : Galileo died around the mid 17th cent. (~1650) "Eppur si muove" It takes almost 200 years to the Vatican to cancel forbideness on the books. It takes more than 150 other years for the Pope to admit that, after all, Copernicus and Galileo might not be burning in Hell. How slow is that mind ?

The position of the Vatican on sex is really dangerous for themselves. I would not become a churchman, would it only be because that would imply I could not have wife and children. Saying : "Do not use condoms !" is the worst message the Pope can deliver to African people, who are dying with aids.

I could keep on for a real while, but that is useless. I had only one thing to say to Saint :
I am christian & I have a critical mind. Jesus said : "love each other" Everybody. He never said "Please suffer".

[The Bob]

Although I am only 16 I have views on this.

I, personally, am a christian, as most of you know, I think. Anyway I try to follow the bible if I can so I am waiting until I am marriaged to have sex.

However, I have read many verses and it has become aware to me, mainly because my old Key Skills teacher helped me to think, that sex IS marriage. Marriage is simply to show everyone that you are about to commit to each other. Sex is the actual marriage. It says in Matthew (Sorry to quote Chroot but I feel it is necessary) something like: Once two bodies have become one they shall not be seperated apart from ...... (can't remember off hand).

Anyway the point is that so long as you marry your sexual partner then there should be no problems. What the bible is trying to say is don't have sex with multiple people, which I do see as a bit off in my mind but others will not. Sex is a commitment that you must not brake once entered into.

I know people will not agree with me but I am trying to explain to all my interpretation of the bible, which has been brought up in this thread. The main reason christians don't have sex before marriage is to make sure the other person is ready for this commitment, which is what the marriage is.

As a moral question there really isn't a problem in today's society if both people are alright with a one-night-stand. It is when one of the people don't want to leave it. This is where the envy and jealous start and then the greed. As you can see, society hasn't changed too much in fact. Ok, we don't ride horses everywhere or live in mud houses but the same problems that faced us thosands of years ago still do. So not to be religious here but Proverbs 10:1 - 29:27 is actual a good bases for everyone. It has helped me to get along with people more because I go to do something foolish and not only do I remember 'verse somethings says don't do that because of this' but also all of the 'foolish' verses come into play. I think even non-religious people should read it. It is only because it is in the bible that people see it as religion. It is actually a very good place to find written advice. Try it sometime. You could be amazed.

Thanks for reading. :biggrin:

The Bob (2004 ©)

[cuffnstuff]

Each to their own, pre-marital, post-marital, either way. Life is to short, but how you spend the time you have is up to you. "Live for today,Live for tomorrow, but never live in the past"

[Artman]

This is actually a difficult question for me. Personally I think it is okay, depending on the participants ages. young people should refrain from sex until they are ready to accept the responsibility for their actions. An accidental pregnancy for a high school kid can ruin their life (or lifes if the guy is willing ot own up to his involvement).

As for the Bible on the subject, the guidelines in the bible are not there to make people miserable, they are there to show us how to live better. For example, sex premaritally gives no assurance to a woman that if a pregnancy should occur she will have help raising the child. After marrage, she is supposed to have a help mate to share the burdon and the joy. Now-a-days this is not the hardship that it was in Biblical times (women were objects and had no way to support themself), but it is still not easy.

[Gokul43201]

You can have Masterbation to satiate your sexual desire before marriage.
And SEX is not Everything for marriage, there are many other factors more essential to foster a happy marriage.

God of Bible forbid SEX before marriage, and one man shall marry only one wife unless she died earlier, then the man can marry again.

Sex before marriage is SIN according to the moral standard of Holy Bible.
This Sin will be judged by God and sentenced to eternal fire unless you repent and never do it again and accept Jesus Christ as your personal Savior.

Marry a wife in holy way, and have Holy Sex after wedding will give you more Happiness than being promiscuous.

I was going to object to this as preaching...

Your question, quite clearly, hinges on the interpretation of 'immoral'. If you insist on a universal moral standard - that established by the Bible - then there is no room for discussion. Clearly, judging from your cant, this is what you are saying.

Now, I'd like to object to your opening line, based on something I remember reading in Genesis.

Genesis 38:

8 And Judah said unto Onan, Go in unto thy brother's wife, and marry her, and raise up seed to thy brother.
9 And Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in unto his brother's wife, that he spilled it on the ground, lest that he should give seed to his brother.
10 And the thing which he did displeased the LORD: wherefore he slew him also.

Sir, you get slain by the Lord, for masturbation !! So, I guess the Old Testament doesn't count then ?

[Monique]

We're not here to discuss the bible, as chroot mentioned.

[Gokul43201]

I'm not discussing the Bible. Only showing evidence for inconsistencies in opening post.

[Prometheus]

What do you think about this question? :wink:
I think that it is poorly phrased and highly loaded, and that you are attempting to preach your morality.

[aychamo]

Although I am only 16 I have views on this.

However, I have read many verses and it has become aware to me, mainly because my old Key Skills teacher helped me to think, that sex IS marriage. Marriage is simply to show everyone that you are about to commit to each other. Sex is the actual marriage. It says in Matthew (Sorry to quote Chroot but I feel it is necessary) something like: Once two bodies have become one they shall not be seperated apart from ...... (can't remember off hand).

Anyway the point is that so long as you marry your sexual partner then there should be no problems. What the bible is trying to say is don't have sex with multiple people, which I do see as a bit off in my mind but others will not. Sex is a commitment that you must not brake once entered into.

Sex is not about commitment. To some people, sex may be a sign of commitment, but that isn't true of all people. You write that you have never had sex, so you can't be an authority figure to tell what does and does not come (pardon the pun?) with sex. You can have sex without love, and you can have love without sex.

I feel that Christians and other religious groups tend to ingrain in their children's minds that sex is this huge, magical, wonderful thing that happens between two people and that all this feeling and responsibility comes with it. I think it's a bit of a scare tactic to keep the kids following the religious ideas that the parents are passing down to their kids.

The truth is, sex is not a big deal. The only risks that comes with it are pregnancy and STDs. I've had sex with girls and have had no emotional attacahment what-so-ever, and never given them a second thought. There wasn't a huge amount of commitment or anything that came along with it.

[Artman]

...The only risks that comes with it are pregnancy and STDs. I've had sex with girls and have had no emotional attacahment what-so-ever, and never given them a second thought. There wasn't a huge amount of commitment or anything that came along with it.
Good thing a child didn't come along with it. Or an STD.

[russ_watters]

And SEX is not Everything for marriage, there are many other factors more essential to foster a happy marriage. My view is that though sex isn't everything, its still important.

Regarding morality though, if you take your morality from religion, Cristianity generally teaches its bad.

[The Bob]

Sex is not about commitment. To some people, sex may be a sign of commitment, but that isn't true of all people. You write that you have never had sex, so you can't be an authority figure to tell what does and does not come (pardon the pun?) with sex. You can have sex without love, and you can have love without sex.

I did say that it wasn't the only view but that it was mine. I didn't say that I was right either.

I feel that Christians and other religious groups tend to ingrain in their children's minds that sex is this huge, magical, wonderful thing that happens between two people and that all this feeling and responsibility comes with it. I think it's a bit of a scare tactic to keep the kids following the religious ideas that the parents are passing down to their kids.

This view is best to start with (in my opinion) but if the child wants it then there is nothing to stop them really. The parents have 'the talk' (which I have never had :tongue2: ) and then it is up to the child.

The truth is, sex is not a big deal. The only risks that comes with it are pregnancy and STDs. I've had sex with girls and have had no emotional attacahment what-so-ever, and never given them a second thought. There wasn't a huge amount of commitment or anything that came along with it.

I too no longer see it as a big deal, really. I know I have not had sex but the amount you think of when it will happen it just becomes nothing. You over think it and it is no longer a big deal.

I did say that people would not agree. This was simply my view. I am not saying it is right or wrong but what I think.

But as you mention:I've had sex with girls and have had no emotional attacahment what-so-ever, and never given them a second thought. I would just like to say that this is where the problem comes if the other person is not willing to just forget it. I assume in your case they did but to say the problems it is best not to do it (or to move contry :wink: ).

I knew people would not agree and I knew that this isn't the only view it is just mine. I do respect everyone elses view and have no problem with it if they are comfortable with it and what they are doing but I simply do not wish to follow. I wish to take things how I want and at my speed.

The Bob (2004 ©)

P.S. The best way to stop pregancy is to not have sex. :tongue2:

[Entropy]

Wow, what a kind and loving god your worship that would create you as a human which craves sex and then sentence you to eternal fire for fulfilling the desires that the very same god put into you.

What are you talking about? Its not against the Bible to have sex.

I agree with chroot, it should be up to the individual.

I think each person has a right to make his/her own decision and not be pestered by anyone about it.


He isn't argueing that it should be made illegal, good lord. There is a difference when something is banned by society and when its labeled immoral.

Sex before marriage is necessary. You don't want to marry a girl who sucks in the sack :)

Sometimes just being with the person you love is more powerful than the actual at of sex itself. Thats the difference between love and lust.

I just wanted to quote this one part, as it always makes me laugh. The bible tells you that God is true. God tells you the bible is true. Doesn't that seem circular?

Its called faith. If you want to attack religion with the same arguements that have throw at it for thousands of years then by all means go to the religious forums.

I feel that Christians and other religious groups tend to ingrain in their children's minds that sex is this huge, magical, wonderful thing that happens between two people and that all this feeling and responsibility comes with it. I think it's a bit of a scare tactic to keep the kids following the religious ideas that the parents are passing down to their kids.

The truth is, sex is not a big deal. The only risks that comes with it are pregnancy and STDs. I've had sex with girls and have had no emotional attacahment what-so-ever, and never given them a second thought. There wasn't a huge amount of commitment or anything that came along with it.

Oh, heaven forbid! Parents trying to get their kids to take responsiblity! Their not tell there kids that sex is a huge, important event, their telling them that it should be a huge, important event. I like your way of thinking. So when I have a 13 year old daughter that I love, I'll be sure to tell her what you said.

Dude, you're talking like STDs and teen pragnancies aren't a big deal! Just because you got lucky and it didn't happen to you doesn't mean it was a smart thing to do. I have plenty of friends and relatives that thought sex was no big deal and now they're lives are totally screwed.

Also, you didn't give a second thought to it? What about the other person involved? Oh, yeah, thats right no one has ever, in the history of the world, ever, ever had a second thought about sleeping with someone. Yep, everyone is just like you. Completely carefree and immune to all forms of STDs and pregnancies.

One more thing. Lets assume there is an individual that you really do care about, he/she might even be the one. But what if there is someone more attractive than him/her that you just want have a one-night stand with. You really think he/she would approve? Yeah, he/she will definitely buy "its just sex, there isn't any emotional involvement in it."

[Prometheus]

P.S. The best way to stop pregancy is to not have sex. :tongue2:
This is not true. Not having sex will not stop a pregnancy.

[Gokul43201]

Clever, Prometheus ! :smile:

[Leong]

If your children ask you the same question, will anyone here reply the same answers ?

[aychamo]

If your children ask you the same question, will anyone here reply the same answers ?

Yes. I certainally will not threaten my child with the thought of burning in a pit of fire for all of eternity just to make them not have sex.

Instead, I'll explain if they mess up and make the girl pregnant that they'll have to quit school, give up their childhood and work 40 hours a week to be able to provide for the baby.

[russ_watters]

Yes. I certainally will not threaten my child with the thought of burning in a pit of fire for all of eternity just to make them not have sex.

Instead, I'll explain if they mess up and make the girl pregnant that they'll have to quit school, give up their childhood and work 40 hours a week to be able to provide for the baby. I won't say I'll be able to look at my teenage daughter and say that, but it is true that 'don't have sex' and 'don't be a jackass' are two different things. Having sex as a teenager does not automatically make a kid immature/irresponsible.

[The Bob]

This is not true. Not having sex will not stop a pregnancy.

Yer OK but you all knew what I meant.

The Bob (2004 ©)

[jimmy p]

I dont see it as much of a big deal. I had a christian upbringing, though I am not anymore, and I just dont see the point really. Animals can have many partners, though elephants usually choose not to, so why cant humans? Sorry to bring this lame ol' arguement in guys!

[The Bob]

I dont see it as much of a big deal. I had a christian upbringing, though I am not anymore, and I just dont see the point really. Animals can have many partners, though elephants usually choose not to, so why cant humans? Sorry to bring this lame ol' arguement in guys!

It goes back into biblical stuff but as it is a physics forums I will stop here.

The Bob (2004 ©)

[Monique]

I think premarital sex was immoral in the time where the pill and condoms were non-existent: you had to be committed since the chances of ending up pregnant were too great. My 2 cts.

Saint, since you are Chinese you might be interested in the following statistic taken from the August 23 NewsWeek
China has only recently started to acknowledge its growing AIDS problem, despite being in the midst of a sexual revolution. (In the late 1980s, only 15 percent of Chinese had engaged in premarital sex; today an estimated 70 percent have.) Even though researchers warn of a "hidden epidemic" of chlamydia in China, sex education there remains practically nonexistent.In the article (When the mood strikes) it says that the growth of Syphilis infection in the UK has risen 1058% over 1995-2003 :eek: comparitively: in the US it dropped by 39%.

[Prometheus]

Yer OK but you all knew what I meant.
Actually, I don't know what you meant. Why would you attempt to insert a such an irrelevant platitude in the midst of this conversation?

Please explain what you meant.

[Monique]

He meant what I just said: no sex, no pregnancy. Teenage pregnancies happen a lot (in the US for instance), people should better wait until they can deal with potential consequences of their actions.

[Prometheus]

He meant what I just said: no sex, no pregnancy. Teenage pregnancies happen a lot (in the US for instance), people should better wait until they can deal with potential consequences of their actions.
I doubt that he meant what you said.

I think premarital sex was immoral in the time where the pill and condoms were non-existent
He was talking about how to prevent pregnancy. You are talking about the morality of premarital sex.

These don't seem to have anything in common.

I would like to read his response.

[Thallium]

You can have Masterbation to satiate your sexual desire before marriage.
And SEX is not Everything for marriage, there are many other factors more essential to foster a happy marriage.

God of Bible forbid SEX before marriage, and one man shall marry only one wife unless she died earlier, then the man can marry again.

Sex before marriage is SIN according to the moral standard of Holy Bible.
This Sin will be judged by God and sentenced to eternal fire unless you repent and never do it again and accept Jesus Christ as your personal Savior.

Marry a wife in holy way, and have Holy Sex after wedding will give you more Happiness than being promiscuous.

Wow! I'm actually not alone about believing this on this forum. Thanks for bringing that up Saint! :wink:

[Monique]

He was talking about how to prevent pregnancy. You are talking about the morality of premarital sex.

These don't seem to have anything in common.

Nothing in common? You read my post at the top of this page?

Paraphrased he said 'the best way to prevent pregnancy is to not have sex'

Leaving someone pregnant with a baby and running off doesn't seem moral to me. Only when you take the commitment to a person does it become moral to take the risk. Ofcourse now with anticonceptive techniques the view towards premarital sex has shifted.

[Entropy]

Ofcourse now with anticonceptive techniques the view towards premarital sex has shifted.

True we now have anticonceptives. But mosts aren't reliable enough, especially condoms.

[Prometheus]

Nothing in common? You read my post at the top of this page?Yes.

Paraphrased he said 'the best way to prevent pregnancy is to not have sex'
Clearly, that is the case. However, what does this have to do with your statement about the morality of sex?

Leaving someone pregnant with a baby and running off doesn't seem moral to me. Only when you take the commitment to a person does it become moral to take the risk. Ofcourse now with anticonceptive techniques the view towards premarital sex has shifted.
Again, this statement seems like it concerns morality, and it seems that your statement does not concern how to prevent pregnancy.

He meant what I just said: no sex, no pregnancy.
I agree that this is what he said, but I do not see that this is what you said.

[The Bob]

I doubt that he meant what you said.


No. What Monique said is exactly what I meant. If you do not have sex then there is no chance of a pregancy because there is no 'input'.

Thanks Monique. :biggrin:

The Bob (2004 ©)

[Monique]

I agree that this is what he said, but I do not see that this is what you said.
*rolls eyes* no premarital sex = no unwanted pregnancy.

[Prometheus]

I think premarital sex was immoral

He meant what I just said: no sex, no pregnancy.

*rolls eyes* no premarital sex = no unwanted pregnancy.
I recognize that you are now making this statement. Please explain how your initial statment above, and please correct me if I am misquoting you, leads to the second statement above.

[Prometheus]

No. What Monique said is exactly what I meant.
Please cite for me the statement by Monique that says exactly what you meant.

[Monique]

You really like to chew gum, don't you Prometheus? Here is my initial statement again, you think really hard about how it is related to 'no sex, no pregnancy'.
I think premarital sex was immoral in the time where the pill and condoms were non-existent: you had to be committed since the chances of ending up pregnant were too great. My 2 cts.

[Greg Bernhardt]

I'm a chinese, my parents taught me that sex before marriage is immoral.
This is typical oriental thinking passed down to us based on Confucianism.

I don't think all Western people have the opposite view, some religious people in the west are also very strict not to have sex before marriage.

What do you think about this question? :wink:

I was "going to wait" and I did pretty good, got through high school, but college ruined that good intention. Does that make me a bad person? I don't think so and I don't regret not waiting. It's not only opened me up physically, but emotionally too. Now I am not saying everyone should go out and have sex to be a more complete person. I just so happened to find I was ready sooner than I thought I would be.

[Prometheus]

You really like to chew gum, don't you Prometheus?
I suppose that this is somehow relevant to you.

Here is my initial statement again, you think really hard about how it is related to 'no sex, no pregnancy'.
I suspect that you are joking. Your statement is about morality. How can you claim that your statement is about abstaining from sex to prevent pregnancy? Furthermore, your statment uses the past tense, and clearly is about the past, before conditions changed. You are making a clear implication that condiitions have changed, and that contraceptives have made it no longer necessarily immoral.

Your statement is about morality in the past and how it has changed now. What is your purpose in attempting to compel me to "see" in your words something that clearly is not there.

[aychamo]

Wow! I'm actually not alone about believing this on this forum. Thanks for bringing that up Saint! :wink:

Are you saying masturbation is a cure for desiring sex? Maybe before you've ever had sex. But after you experience the latter, masturbation just doesn't cover it.

[aychamo]

If Monique seems negative towards premarital sex, it is because I have in fact left her with a number of children.

[Loren Booda]

For how long must one remain a virgin, or otherwise marry unrequited out of sexual frustration? In the U. S., over half of all marriages, many initiated from religious obligation, end in divorce. Such authoritarianism reminds me of the edict that homosexuals are not sinners as long as they do not actively practice their sexuality.

[Entropy]

Are you saying masturbation is a cure for desiring sex? Maybe before you've ever had sex. But after you experience the latter, masturbation just doesn't cover it.

I definitely agree. Infact I think masturbation in the long run makes you want sex even more. One of the reasons why I don't do it anymore. :yuck:

If masturbation was an equal to sex, we would have a lot less people on Earth! Why bother with the forplay when you can get the same 5 second buzz on you're own? I guess that really only applies to men... :rofl:

[Monique]

I suspect that you are joking. Your statement is about morality. How can you claim that your statement is about abstaining from sex to prevent pregnancy? Furthermore, your statment uses the past tense, and clearly is about the past, before conditions changed. You are making a clear implication that condiitions have changed, and that contraceptives have made it no longer necessarily immoral.

Your statement is about morality in the past and how it has changed now. What is your purpose in attempting to compel me to "see" in your words something that clearly is not there.
Is it really that difficult to see? In a time when there were no contraceptives it would be immoral to have premarital sex, because it could leave you with unwanted children. The solution: no premarital sex, no unwanted pregnancies. I hypothesized that's one of the reasons premarital sex was immoral but isn't to that extend anymore (because of contraceptives).

If you don't agree, that's fine: it's just a thought.

Aychamo: I never made a judgement on the issue of whether it's right or wrong. Seeing teenage single moms (or STD infected people) does raise concern over whether they were doing the right thing.

[aychamo]

I know, I was just trying to lighten the mood with a little innuendo. Apparently I'm a massive turn-off to the female species :(

[franznietzsche]

Are you saying masturbation is a cure for desiring sex? Maybe before you've ever had sex. But after you experience the latter, masturbation just doesn't cover it.

Amen to that. Just isn't sufficient...not even close.

[Prometheus]

Is it really that difficult to see?
Yes, it is. I still fail to understand how you can claim this position. Furthermore, I fail to understand how you can claim that he meant what you said.

In a time when there were no contraceptives it would be immoral to have premarital sex, because it could leave you with unwanted children. The solution: no premarital sex, no unwanted pregnancies.
1. You did not mention this as a solution. It would be completely up to the reader to guess that this is what you had in mind.
2. Much more importantly, you used the past tense. The meaning is pretty clear in my mind that you were discussing way that it used to be before contraceptives were as readily available as they are today.
3. Is your statement not a comparison of morality in the past and the present? If not, then why did you couch it in such terms, when your intent was not such but instead a platitude about abstinence. If so, then why are you trying to place a different spin on your meaning?

I hypothesized that's one of the reasons premarital sex was immoral but isn't to that extend anymore (because of contraceptives).
Exactly. Where in this hypothesis is the mention or even the suggestion that in modern times abstention is the best way to avoid pregnancy? What does you statement have to do with preventing pregnancy. As you say here, your statement was about changes in morality.

If you don't agree, that's fine: it's just a thought.
I am not disagreeing with your meaning. I am just wondering why you attempted to jump in and support The Bob by claiming that his statement is identical to yours. If you agree with what he says, that is fine. But, why are your trying to convince me that your statement has a completely different connotation than the words on their face in your attempt to support him?

Basically, I am asking why you feel so compelled to lend support to The Bob that you would spend so much time trying to convince me that your statement on morality is instead a statement about abstinence.

[fisipavia]

I think one should wait until having the maturity necessary. If you have sex you should be able to be responsible for the consequences it might have (emotionally and physically, pregnancies and diseases). Personally, I am very conservative in this area but I think that having sex should not be linked with marriage but with maturity.
Many of my friends and family members ... (sister, cousins, etc.) have had children’s very young and without been marry…some of them without even finishing high school... I think this is the reason for me to wait (at least for now) ...I am just too scared of ending like them, but I know that I am not "waiting" because I am not marry.
.... Hum
What if I never get marry?!?!
Or if I marry at 35 ?!?!?!
Should I remain virgin?
I DON'T THINK SO!
Neither I should marry just to have sex the "moral way" ...that would really be the immoral thing to do.

[Leong]

I dont see it as much of a big deal. I had a christian upbringing, though I am not anymore, and I just dont see the point really. Animals can have many partners, though elephants usually choose not to, so why cant humans? Sorry to bring this lame ol' arguement in guys!

u just compared humans with animals, didn't you ? animals' behaviors which come to your liking, you follow. how about the ones you don't ?

[Leong]

Yes. I certainally will not threaten my child with the thought of burning in a pit of fire for all of eternity just to make them not have sex.

Instead, I'll explain if they mess up and make the girl pregnant that they'll have to quit school, give up their childhood and work 40 hours a week to be able to provide for the baby.

i want to know where you draw your line. so, you don't really bother who they (your children: boy and girl) sleep with out there or how many partners they have as long as they don't mess up with you, their lives and in the family and they don't ruin any of them, umm is that what you are most concerned about?

[marlon]

ASCOLTATE : UN MESSAGGIO DI DIO PER I BENEDETTI
I think premerital sex is the best sex ever !!!!!


il santo padre
Questo è un messaggio Urbi et Orbi

regards
marlon

[Monique]

Prometheus: whatever!

[marlon]

Prometheus: whatever!


Monique, i see we are the same age. May I ask ... what country are you from???

regards
marlon

ps : the hot boy is nice, hmmmm (lol)

[Monique]

Ik ben je noorderbuur :)

[marlon]

Ik ben je noorderbuur :)


aha, dit had ik niet zien komen.
Euuh, dat van dit gast rechts van boven was maar een grapje hoor. Ik ben niet voor de jongens...

Jullie discussiëren hier over spektakulaire zaken, maar laats ons er niet te druk in maken vind ik. at zal de katholieke kerk wel doen, vandaar de post in het italiaans.


groetjes
nikolaas

[The Bob]

I am not disagreeing with your meaning. I am just wondering why you attempted to jump in and support The Bob by claiming that his statement is identical to yours. If you agree with what he says, that is fine. But, why are your trying to convince me that your statement has a completely different connotation than the words on their face in your attempt to support him?

Basically, I am asking why you feel so compelled to lend support to The Bob that you would spend so much time trying to convince me that your statement on morality is instead a statement about abstinence.

It is most likely to be the fact that you are acting fairly immature and no understanding a simple statment. My original sentence needed no explainin at all yet you decided to continue argue a case you did not have at all. Therefore she was supporting me because you were being purposely ignorant.

May I suggest before the fall out that it was initial my fault and that I apologise to both of you for starting your agrument. May I also suggest that we drop the subject of no sex = no pregancy as it was simple and was taken to unnecessary highs.

The Bob (2004 ©)

[The Bob]

Ik ben je noorderbuur :)

I think I can understand this.

aha, dit had ik niet zien komen.
Euuh, dat van dit gast rechts van boven was maar een grapje hoor. Ik ben niet voor de jongens...

Jullie discussiëren hier over spektakulaire zaken, maar laats ons er niet te druk in maken vind ik. at zal de katholieke kerk wel doen, vandaar de post in het italiaans.


groetjes
nikolaas
:surprise:

This is just unfair. :biggrin:

The Bob (2004 ©)

[marlon]

I think I can understand this.


:surprise:

This is just unfair. :biggrin:

The Bob (2004 ©)


Sorry, The Bob, this was in Dutch. I was just saying that this whole thing on premerital sex will be discussed by the fine members of the catholic church(lol). I am just saying, what's all the fuss about. You make of it what you make of it.

What do we wanna achieve by discussing this relative subject

regards
marlon

[Prometheus]

It is most likely to be the fact that you are acting fairly immature and no understanding a simple statment.
Young man, it is clear that you are the immature one. You confessed as much in your original post on this topic.

My original sentence needed no explainin at all yet you decided to continue argue a case you did not have at all.
What are you thinking. You post a platitude, except that you phrase it incorrectly. To you the meaning is obvious. I ask you to explain, and your only response is that the meaning is obvious. The single response of yours also is phrased poorly. Perhaps you should realize that what to you, in your mind, needs no explanation at all is not necessarily so clear to everyone else. I understand the denotation of your statement. My question was regarding the connotation, and why you were inserting it in that location.

Therefore she was supporting me because you were being purposely ignorant.
Are you truly that ignorant?

No. What Monique said is exactly what I meant. If you do not have sex then there is no chance of a pregancy because there is no 'input'.
You are way off Bob. Perhasp Monique meant to say that what you said was what she meant, as the discussion is about what you said. How can you say that your simple platitidue about abstension, which is what you said, is exactly the same as what Monique meant, which is a statement about a change in morality.

You can state all you want that I am ignorant, but it is you who is hiding behind her coattails because you have nothing else to stand on. Her statement had nothing to do with your platititude. You say so because you can't stand on your own two feet and defend your platitude. You have yet to say anything but 1) The meaning is obvious and you need not explain yourself, and 2) Your platitiude means exactly the same as a completely irrelevant statement about morality. You seem very shy, hiding behind Monique. Come out and defend yourself or go hide somewhere.

May I suggest before the fall out that it was initial my fault and that I apologise to both of you for starting your agrument.
Apology accepted. Now, let us continue with you and me, at the point where we were before Monique jumped in to protect you and you jumped on the opportunity to hide.

May I also suggest that we drop the subject of no sex = no pregancy as it was simple and was taken to unnecessary highs.
OK. If you wish. At this point, I do agree that the original point and spirit of my question has been tainted by this offshoot argument.

I don't mind the way you run your life. I am not telling you that you are wong to believe in god and remain a virgin. I have nothing at all against it. Howver, you are a young and immature kid. For you, a clearly immature young man, to tell me that I am immature because I want to probe your statement and you do not want to defend it is pretty immature on your part, young man.

[Thallium]

Are you saying masturbation is a cure for desiring sex? Maybe before you've ever had sex. But after you experience the latter, masturbation just doesn't cover it.

I forgot to say that that was the one thing I did not agree with it. Masturbation is what you make it. Compensation for sex? Nope. But whatever it is, I don't care.

[Thallium]

I know, I was just trying to lighten the mood with a little innuendo. Apparently I'm a massive turn-off to the female species :(

Damn right. A+ to you.

[The Bob]

I wish I could leave this but I feel bad by doing that. It appears I have started something and hurt a few people on the way. As I do not want a fall out with anyone I will have to reply to this.

Young man, it is clear that you are the immature one. You confessed as much in your original post on this topic.

By stating that having no sex is the only way to stop pregancy 100% is immature??? I apologise for this. If it is wrong I will go out and see how my luck is holding.

What are you thinking. You post a platitude, except that you phrase it incorrectly. To you the meaning is obvious. I ask you to explain, and your only response is that the meaning is obvious. The single response of yours also is phrased poorly. Perhaps you should realize that what to you, in your mind, needs no explanation at all is not necessarily so clear to everyone else. I understand the denotation of your statement. My question was regarding the connotation, and why you were inserting it in that location.

I understand in my mind that things are easy to explain but when I have to type or speak it is harder. However, Monique understood so I assumed, incorrectly, that another person would do, as only you have said anything on the subject. I apologise again.

Are you truly that ignorant?

Ignorant: lacking knowledge, education or comprehension. No I understood what was being said. However again I may have been on the defensive side so I apologise again to you, Prometheus.

You are way off Bob. Perhasp Monique meant to say that what you said was what she meant, as the discussion is about what you said. How can you say that your simple platitidue about abstension, which is what you said, is exactly the same as what Monique meant, which is a statement about a change in morality.

Although I admitt that I did not read the posts completely and only got an idea of each, mine and Monique's ideas are linked and have a similar meaning.

You can state all you want that I am ignorant, but it is you who is hiding behind her coattails because you have nothing else to stand on. Her statement had nothing to do with your platititude. You say so because you can't stand on your own two feet and defend your platitude. You have yet to say anything but 1) The meaning is obvious and you need not explain yourself, and 2) Your platitiude means exactly the same as a completely irrelevant statement about morality. You seem very shy, hiding behind Monique. Come out and defend yourself or go hide somewhere.

Believe me if I had nothing to stand on I would have made the statement questionable and shown it. I was not hiding but if you wish to see it in this way then please do. I would like to make a point that the last time I was talked to like this, to make me come forward than I am, it was an act of cowardness to get out of trouble. I know this is not what you are doing but I must say it does hurt to be reminded of it.

I may be shy in nature but there is no need to hide on the internet so I am not and have not hidden at all.

Apology accepted. Now, let us continue with you and me, at the point where we were before Monique jumped in to protect you and you jumped on the opportunity to hide.

Again I did not hide.

OK. If you wish. At this point, I do agree that the original point and spirit of my question has been tainted by this offshoot argument.

My original statement was that if you do not have sex then the women in the partnership has no chance of getting pregant. That was the point. That is why I said No Sex = No Pregancy.

I don't mind the way you run your life. I am not telling you that you are wong to believe in god and remain a virgin. I have nothing at all against it.

Good because I do not see it as wrong to hold the opossite against anyone.

However, you are a young and immature kid.

Clearly you do not know me at all. If I was immature then my reasonings and statements would have been more insulting and had less of an empathsis on them.

For you, a clearly immature young man, to tell me that I am immature because I want to probe your statement and you do not want to defend it is pretty immature on your part, young man.

I was willing to defend it but as most things I was waiting for the correct place in this thread to do so. It appears that now is it.

I believe I have found myself in a hole with incorrect words. Immature was the first one that came to mind. I was slighty angry (not as much as I am as I am writing this, mind) and so incorrect words came to mind. Also it is not immature of me to not defend something if I wish. Prehaps ignorant of me but it appears you have simply used my words.

I wish to apologise to Prometheus, Monique and anyone else who has been affected by this thread. I admitt to having started the arguement and to have acted immature and ignorant and selfishly but we are not perfect and mistakes happen. It just appears that I have hurt a number of people, which was not the original intention. I apologise again to Prometheus for anything in this post that may frustrate him. I want the argueing to be left at this point and that discussions will continue. If, Prometheus, you have an questions on anything then please tell me and I will try to defend or discuss my position.

I will now go away and think about how I have behavioured and hope you all forgive me and that I can stop it in the future. I thought I could see myself as an equal but I know there will be people who will read this and think, 'what an idiot' or 'that is a load of b******s', but that is those people.

Sorry once more for all the trouble I have caused.

The Bob (2004 ©)

[Monique]

I'd rather like to know why Prometheus felt like making such a big deal out of nothing. The Bob, you certainly don't need to apologize to me, since there's nothing to apologize for!

[The Bob]

I'd rather like to know why Prometheus felt like making such a big deal out of nothing. The Bob, you certainly don't need to apologize to me, since there's nothing to apologize for!

Oh ok. Thanks. :smile:

The Bob (2004 ©)

[Prometheus]

Sorry once more for all the trouble I have caused.
The Bob: I am not telling you that you should be sorry for stating your opinion, or for having it.

You made a statement. I asked you to explain what you meant, because I considered that the context did not make clear why you were making the statement. I was not challenging your statement itself, but the context.

You should not feel bad for making your statement. You can defend it or not.

However, Monique stepped in and attempted to defend you. Perhaps she is aware of your age, and was attempting to be helpful. That was a mistake, in my opinion, because her statement was very different from yours. She might support your statement, but she did not. She claimed that your statement was the same as hers, which in my mind is clearly not the case.

You then accepted this as your defense, as you acknowledge. You did not need to defend yourself to me on this forum. If you choose to defend yourself, you can defend yourself in any manner that you wish. The defense that you presented is to accept Monique's claim as your own. I feel that I can challenge this defenese as a poor one.

You should not apologize to me for disagreeing with me. You should make statements that you believe in, and then defend them or not. You should expect to be challenged from time to time. I just dislike your defense, as you took the easy way out, as you acknowledge.

You do not need to apologize for holding your opinion. I did not like your use of the word immature. This is, I believe, one of the modern gutless words that they teach in school to make people feel better about themselves. In the real world, where you are now outside of school, such a word does not hold the same meaning as you use it is school, and I recommend that you abandon it until you learn how it is used by adults. However, you were the one to use the word, and I felt that I do not need to let you make such a statement as though it is harmless and I should just accept it.

I do not think the less of you because I do not share your opinions. I am not saying that your original statement was wrong in an absolute sense, but only in a relative sense. Please do not apologize on this forum for being yourself and having your opinion. However, you might be more careful about how you choose to defend your statements and the choice of words that you use to characterize others as a means of justifying your defense.

Let us move on to other topics, and see if we can't hold a better conversation next time.

[Prometheus]

I'd rather like to know why Prometheus felt like making such a big deal out of nothing.
I was attempting to hold a conversation with The Bob. You changed the tone of the conversation by making a claim that I believe is clearly and obviously a lie. I consider that it is you who took away the opportunity that I had to hold a conversation with The Bob, and you did so on the basis of what I believe is a lie. I do not consider that it is nothing. If it were nothing, then why did you express yourself so vigourously and repeatedly?

Maybe your intentions were good, but I believe that you used a lie to attempt to defend The Bob. You might claim that you support his statement, but you did not. You claimed that your statement on changes in morality was clearly and obviously "actually" a statement about abstinence.

I would like to know why you did this. What were you thinking on your original posting, and why did you continue to hold to your contention?

I answered your question. Will you answer mine?

[Monique]

I answered your question. Will you answer mine?
No, I see absolutely no reason to do so.

[Prometheus]

I'd rather like to know why Prometheus felt like making such a big deal out of nothing.


No, I see absolutely no reason to do so.
I agree. No reason. Oh, wait. How about you asked me for my reasoning, and I provided it. I then, subsequent to your request, asked you your reasoning, and you see ABSOLUTELY no reason to explain yourself.

OK, perhaps it is best if we drop the subject.

[The Bob]

Ok, I have started something here that I cannot leave. I do not want you two to be agrueing over a subject I started.

Here is my explaination, which I should have just given:

No Sex = No Pregancy. Simply, if John and Mary want to have sex but do not want the possible commitment of a child or a fetus then the only way to be sure that they do not conseve a child is for them not to have sex. If this doesn't make sense then I apologise.

The Bob (2004 ©)

P.S. I apologise for the spelling mistakes.

[Saint]

christians shall live a life without breaking the laws of God,
for non-christians, they are advised to have safe-sex before marriage.

[Prometheus]

christians shall live a life without breaking the laws of God,
for non-christians, they are advised to have safe-sex before marriage.
How quaint.

[cragwolf]

Is premerital SEX immoral?

No, but it is imperative.

[Prometheus]

The best way to stop pregancy is to not have sex.
Ok, I have started something here that I cannot leave.

Here is my explaination, which I should have just given:

No Sex = No Pregancy. Simply, if John and Mary want to have sex but do not want the possible commitment of a child or a fetus then the only way to be sure that they do not conseve a child is for them not to have sex.
For the fourth time, this is not what I was asking. As I sid repeatedly, I was asking about context. I will not ask you why you wrote "the best way" if you really meant "the only way". Anyway, since you cannot leave it, let us move on:
I think premarital sex was immoral in the time where the pill and condoms were non-existent: you had to be committed since the chances of ending up pregnant were too great.
What Monique said is exactly what I meant.
If what Monique said is exactly what you meant, please explain your first cited post above in terms of what you meant exactly, in other words in terms of Monique's words. Specifically, did you mean to speak of morality, and did you mean to suggest that your original statement was only true in the past, when contraceptives were not as available as today? Are you still maintaining that what Monique said is exactly what you meant? If so, why does your explanation above seem to be so completely unrelated to her words?

[jcsd]

Sex is immoral, anybody caught doing it should be summarily executed or fined.

[The Bob]

If what Monique said is exactly what you meant, please explain your first cited post above in terms of what you meant exactly, in other words in terms of Monique's words. Specifically, did you mean to speak of morality, and did you mean to suggest that your original statement was only true in the past, when contraceptives were not as available as today? Are you still maintaining that what Monique said is exactly what you meant? If so, why does your explanation above seem to be so completely unrelated to her words?

Now I see it, they are opposites, well I think they are from what is in my head.

Sorry again. I got it wrong again.

The Bob (2004 ©)

[motai]

Sex is immoral, anybody caught doing it should be summarily executed or fined.

haha. Not quite sure about the executions, but the government could fine people as another means of funding... call it a "sex tax" to pay for all of these expensive government mandates. Of course, the ironies that come with it will be interesting: the devolution of welfare programs including those that seek to lower the rates of teenage pregnancy will be funded by the "sex tax."

[Artman]

Personally, I think that to not teach children properly about sex is immoral.

The morality of premarital sex depends on the individual and the circumstances. With every freedom there are also responsibilities. If you are not ready to take on the responsibilities that such a freedom entails, you need to examine the morality of your actions. If you spawn an unwanted child with a person you don't love, how moral is that? If you decide to abort the child, how moral is that? If you spread an STD, how moral is that? These examples become a burdon on individuals, family, and society.

This thread has a lot of misinformation about what Christian morality is about. I just feel compelled to write my understanding of this concept.

If your actions result in seperation from God or your neighbors, then you need to question the morality of your actions (yes this may be a little more strict than for non-christians, but is not so unflexible as many non-christians believe it is). What this basically means is that if you believe something to be immoral, but do it anyway, that results in seperation from God (not because God leaves you, but you turn away from God). If you think it will harm another person, but do it anyway, that is seperation from your neighbors.

Saint, the harm here isn't in breaking God's rules. The harm is in doing something that you feel is wrong.

[franznietzsche]

I was attempting to hold a conversation with The Bob. You changed the tone of the conversation by making a claim that I believe is clearly and obviously a lie. I consider that it is you who took away the opportunity that I had to hold a conversation with The Bob, and you did so on the basis of what I believe is a lie. I do not consider that it is nothing. If it were nothing, then why did you express yourself so vigourously and repeatedly?

Maybe your intentions were good, but I believe that you used a lie to attempt to defend The Bob. You might claim that you support his statement, but you did not. You claimed that your statement on changes in morality was clearly and obviously "actually" a statement about abstinence.

I would like to know why you did this. What were you thinking on your original posting, and why did you continue to hold to your contention?

I answered your question. Will you answer mine?



I LOVE how you know what everyone really meant better than they did. Can you teach me how you read their own minds so much better than them? That skill would be SO useful.


[/reality]

[humanino]

christians shall live a life without breaking the laws of God,
for non-christians, they are advised to have safe-sex before marriage.

I am really sad. I feel sad, because I believe in Christ's message, but I am so ashamed of it, I usually don't dare sharing it. The reason is thanks to people like Saint, christian look old minded . Please Saint, God also gave you a brain, use it. You decided to waste your penis, fine that's your problem. But don't waste your brain, because in doing so you make me ashamed to follow Christ.

After all the discussions here, did not you realize yet that forbideness of premarital sex was a useful idea for society a long time ago, but is no more necessary, would it be for christian or for the others.

Try to collect all your religious thoughts, and out of them separate mystical beliefs from historically added social stuff.

[Prometheus]

I LOVE how you know what everyone really meant better than they did. Can you teach me how you read their own minds so much better than them? That skill would be SO useful.
A comedian! How nice. Are you hoping that I think that you are serious? Of course not.

In this case, you have no idea what you are talking about. If you think that you do, get into details, rather than being so vague.

Your use of generalizations instead of specifics relegates your statement into the realm of meaninglessness. Why not be specific, if you want to be taken seriously.

Rather than ramble with your cute-to-you generalizations, present the specific case in which you think that I was mistaken, and explain why.

[jimmy p]

Sex is immoral. Please leave the relevant body parts at the door.

[BoulderHead]

christians shall live a life without breaking the laws of God,
for non-christians, they are advised to have safe-sex before marriage. Saint, didn't you post numerous times seeminly to bash some element of Christianity? It seemed that way to me, so now I'm thinking it was actually an expression of internal conflict prior to 'conversion'. Am I off target here? Anyway, warm regards.
-BH

[Gokul43201]

Please keep in mind that PF is not a place for you (Saint) to go about preaching your religious beliefs.

[enigma]

You are treading a very fine line here, Saint.

PF stopped hosting religious topics because you and others felt it necessary to talk down to everyone who didn't agree with your particular dogma.

Let's give this preachiness a rest, shall we?

[Saint]

Without referring to religious scripture, how can one define Morality?

[Monique]

Easy, just look at people who do not follow a religious scripture: they still have moral values.

[Saint]

Can you explain why do we need moral values? Just to avoid doing harm to people?

[Monique]

Morals are about social standards, you've got norms and values.. now what was the difference between the two again.. confused.. (our prime minister keeps hammering on the subject).

[Prometheus]

Without referring to religious scripture, how can one define Morality?
Try any dictionary. All of them that I have seen define morality without any religious overtones, let alone religious scripture.

[arildno]

Without referring to religious scripture, how can one define Morality?
You have it backwards, Saint:
When adhering to religious scripture, it is you who are amoral.
To adhere to scripture because it is religious, that is by not doing something (or doing something) because a reputed God has said so, is equivalent of saying, that in the final analysis, whatever humans may feel about your action/inaction, is IRRELEVANT.

However, morality is precisely about constructing rules on the basis of "how humans feel about it"

You're the amoral one, the atheist might be moral.

[Prometheus]

You have it backwards, Saint:
When adhering to religious scripture, it is you who are amoral.
To adhere to scripture because it is religious, that is by not doing something (or doing something) because a reputed God has said so, is equivalent of saying, that in the final analysis, whatever humans may feel about your action/inaction, is IRRELEVANT.

However, morality is precisely about constructing rules on the basis of "how humans feel about it"

You're the amoral one
Excellent point.

[fisipavia]

Without referring to religious scripture, how can one define Morality?

Morality is related with the good and bad actions (ACTIONS not RESULT). I can be atheists and still know that to kill someone else is bad, then I can have a perception of morality without depending on a religion

Now that you ask... the problem with your perception is that as you know there are a lot of cultures and religions. In your case you can think that the people that don't act as your religion says are immoral but probably for them you are the immoral one.


If you are really interested in the theme I recommend you to read the work of the philosopher Kant. It is very interesting since he was the first one in notice that if morality is based on religion or culture then there is no universal morality...so in practice morality was relative and none of them was always right. He published a work staying that the universal morality should be the one that is product of a rational process of what is right. It is not moral to do something just because you want to but it is moral to do the thing that you know that is right even if you are not so interested in doing so, or even if it can harm you. If you act with good-will then you act morally. For him a moral law should be universal, you know, as laws are universals in science, if it is applied in one situation it should be applied in all situations. For example if you think that you should be free of having your owns ideas or religion without being persecuted or have your ideas constantly questioned by others...then the moral thing is for you to not attack or question the ideas or religion belief of others.

I recommend you to read his work. Even if it is old I think that he got it right... well at least I have always thought like him and was surprise that I agreed with almost everything that he says.

[Saint]

I think we can do a survey by interviewing the porn stars, ask them whether they enjoy SEX? I believe, having been indulged in Sex so often, they can't enjoy sex anymore, moreover, they Suffer for Sex.

[Gokul43201]

Yeah...let us know once you've done that survey.

They Suffer for Sex, so that all future Sex may go to Heaven.

[humanino]

Saint : I recently had sex with two lesbians (out of which I will never marry any) and one of them is a porn actress. I am telling you : she enjoys sex more than anything else. She does not suffer. She just earns money with it.

Give up Saint. You won't convince anyone here.

[humanino]

Hey guys : I invite anyone to my parties in exchange for a Gmail account :tongue2: :biggrin: :tongue: :approve: :rofl:

[Monique]

Give up Saint. You won't convince anyone here.
Drawing conclusions from a single sample is not sound either :rolleyes: And I'm more on Saint's side than yours :uhh:

[humanino]

I am not really drawing any conclusion here. I am trying to save Saint's soul. :tongue2: Yes, I am a bit provocative. I thought, the fact that I studied Christ message, but I am trying to think by myself would shake him a little. Apparently it does not. As Gokul said somewhere else, Saint seems to throw discussion without trying to listen to th others.

I am a french Christian, and back in France, we are trying to follow the evolution of society. Contrary to Roma :cry: This is very sad, because if the church keeps in this direction, only personal religion will be possible for intelligent people.

[Artman]

You have it backwards, Saint:
When adhering to religious scripture, it is you who are amoral.
To adhere to scripture because it is religious, that is by not doing something (or doing something) because a reputed God has said so, is equivalent of saying, that in the final analysis, whatever humans may feel about your action/inaction, is IRRELEVANT.

However, morality is precisely about constructing rules on the basis of "how humans feel about it"

You're the amoral one, the atheist might be moral.
First of all, I do understand your point, however, Idon't agree with it.

We all base our morals on something: what our parents teach us, what we learn from religious leaders or scripture, what we learn from our own mistakes, what we read, etc.

Just watch children play sometime. If one child wants a toy they take it. It doesn't matter who owns it. Then the parent tells them, "Now you give that back, that doesn't belong to you." At which point they toss it at the head of the other child. They haven't learned that braining another kid with a stolen toy is not a moral thing to do.

Another example is that some business practices are perfectly legal, but may be immoral, such as buying property and forcing a tenant to move, even if it is an old person, just because their lease is up. A true Christian has a basis that says this is wrong. Does an Atheist?

[arildno]

Artman:
My point is simply that in the final analysis, basing your "morality" on some sayings solely because they are supposed to be the sayings of a God, this means that the happiness of humans is an irrelevant factor in the decision making process (as to what actions are to be considered moral), since the final arbiter is some saying of a God.

If you couldn't care less (in principle) about how other people is affected by your actions, that's fine; but you won't earn any respect for that view.

[BoulderHead]

I believe, having been indulged in Sex so often, they can't enjoy sex anymore, moreover, they Suffer for Sex.
Why then do they make such noise and carry on so?


*Disclaimer: someone told me this was true, I have no personal experience with such things*

[fisipavia]

I think we can do a survey by interviewing the porn stars, ask them whether they enjoy SEX? I believe, having been indulged in Sex so often, they can't enjoy sex anymore, moreover, they Suffer for Sex.


1) First of all, I don't buy your theory.... But ASSUMING it is right: What is its connection with morality?
2) You are going to the extremes, we are not saying that you have to be a sex addict (well if your are one that's ok, that's your thing), but you can have a normal sex life without having sex 3 times a day! What we are saying is that you should have the right to decide your sex life. If you wan to stay virgin until marriage that's ok, but if you decide to have premarital sex that's also ok, but you should be able to accept the responsibilities.

[fisipavia]

Saint:

Just because I am curious... I will not critize your answer but I wan't to know what you think:

What if you never get married, would you died virgin?
Would you died being an old lady (for example. 73 years old) and virgin? :confused:

[Prometheus]

Saint:

Just because I am curious... I will not critize your answer but I wan't to know what you think:

What if you never get married, would you died virgin?
Would you died being an old lady (for example. 73 years old) and virgin? :confused:
Wouldn't it be nice if the Saint, as if that isn't a pretentious name considering the postings that she makes, were to respond to this and others questions that people post in response to her.

[humanino]

Hey Prometheus, you know the worse : Saint is a guy :rofl:

[Prometheus]

Hey Prometheus, you know the worse : Saint is a guy :rofl:
Get real. Didn't you notice that goofy girly icon that she uses under her name. What makes you think that she is a guy?

[fisipavia]

Nope, I am not asking in that tone.

If her answer is yes I will respect her, she should stands for what she thinks (that is really a moral action), I will be very impressed, I will actually have a lot of respect for herself. My point is that she should not judge people that have premarital sex and neither we should judge her. If she answers no, then she is contradicting herself and letting us know that she really don't think that it is inmoral. Because, if she thinks that premarital sex is inmoral and she practice it she would be inmoral because she did something contrary to her own belief.

[humanino]

Jimmy_p corrected me when I made the same mystake. Saint is a male !
http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=39803&page=4&pp=15

[fisipavia]

Hey Prometheus, you know the worse : Saint is a guy :rofl:


:eek: It can be a guy! I have assumed all the time that it is a girl!

Then my question is: Would you died being an old virgin person?

[Saint]

My gender does not influence my thinking.
Premarital sex basically damage the meaning of Sex after marriage.
Premarital sex also used to causing pregnancy and followed by abortion, abortion is basically murder, a terrible Sin in God's eyes and unlawful too.

All sum up to Premarital Sex is Immoral

[BoulderHead]

My gender does not influence my thinking.
Premarital sex basically damage the meaning of Sex after marriage.
Premarital sex also used to causing pregnancy and followed by abortion, abortion is basically murder, a terrible Sin in God's eyes and unlawful too.

All sum up to Premarital Sex is Immoral
So, what would you like to see done about all this kind of behavior, anything?

[Saint]

We must live a chaste life.
Only have sex after marriage, and be a Holy Saint. Pure and blameless!

[BoulderHead]

And if someone wishes to do otherwise?

[Saint]

And if someone wishes to do otherwise?

The he is considered evil!

[Artman]

Artman:
If you couldn't care less (in principle) about how other people is affected by your actions, that's fine; but you won't earn any respect for that view.
I agree with this. The funny thing is that this is also what Jesus taught. In answer to the question what is the greatest commandment, He didn't answer "Don't Kill, or don't steal, etc." Jesus answered (paraphrasing), Love God and love your neighbor as you would yourself.

Now I know the first part does not apply to those who choose not to believe in God, but the second half of that statement means think about how your actions affect others. Treat them as you would want to be treated.

Sounds like the same advice you have given for the formation of morals.

You're in good company. Jesus was a good man of peace. :wink:

[BoulderHead]

Nothing more than that? No action to be taken?
Ok, I can live with that.

[Saint]

Jesus rebuked wrongdoings harshly, like this:
Mat 18:8 And if your hand or your foot is a cause of trouble, let it be cut off and put it away from you: it is better for you to go into life with the loss of a hand or a foot than, having two hands or two feet, to go into the eternal fire.
Mat 18:9 And if your eye is a cause of trouble to you, take it out, and put it away from you: it is better for you to go into life with one eye than, having two eyes, to go into the hell of fire.


using your eyes to see porn is sinful, causes you to go to eternal hell.

[Prometheus]

My gender does not influence my thinking.
Yeah, right. Ha, ha.

Premarital sex basically damage the meaning of Sex after marriage.
Deep.

Premarital sex also used to causing pregnancy and followed by abortion, abortion is basically murder, a terrible Sin in God's eyes and unlawful too.
Shallow.

All sum up to Premarital Sex is Immoral
Not very good at math, are you?

[Prometheus]

using your eyes to see porn is sinful, causes you to go to eternal hell.
You are a goner, guy. You not only like to see porn, but you enjoy showing it to all of us.

It is too bad that you are a moral deviant who is going to eternal hell. Poor guy. Eternel yet.

[Dimitri Terryn]

The he is considered evil!

I knew it!!! :devil: :biggrin:

[aychamo]

Jesus rebuked wrongdoings harshly, like this:


using your eyes to see porn is sinful, causes you to go to eternal hell.

Typical uneducated Christian pulling verses out of the bible without an underestanding of the bible. If you had any understanding of the bible you wouldn't be spreading the **** you've been spreading on these forums.

[Evo]

alright, no one is going to hell in my forum, so let's end this.