View Full Version : [SOLVED] spin 2 particles and electromagnetism
alistair
Aug27-04, 02:40 AM
<jabberwocky><div class="vbmenu_control"><a href="jabberwocky:;" onClick="newWindow=window.open('','usenetCode','toolbar=no, location=no,scrollbars=yes,resizable=yes,status=no ,width=650,height=400'); newWindow.document.write('<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Usenet ASCII</TITLE></HEAD><BODY topmargin=0 leftmargin=0 BGCOLOR=#F1F1F1><table border=0 width=625><td bgcolor=midnightblue><font color=#F1F1F1>This Usenet message\'s original ASCII form: </font></td></tr><tr><td width=449><br><br><font face=courier><UL><PRE>Can spin 2 particles be,in principle,electromagnetic in nature?\n\n</UL></PRE></font></td></tr></table></BODY><HTML>');"> <IMG SRC=/images/buttons/ip.gif BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER ALT="View this Usenet post in original ASCII form"> View this Usenet post in original ASCII form </a></div><P></jabberwocky>Can spin 2 particles be,in principle,electromagnetic in nature?
Arnold Neumaier
Aug28-04, 04:27 AM
<jabberwocky><div class="vbmenu_control"><a href="jabberwocky:;" onClick="newWindow=window.open('','usenetCode','toolbar=no, location=no,scrollbars=yes,resizable=yes,status=no ,width=650,height=400'); newWindow.document.write('<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Usenet ASCII</TITLE></HEAD><BODY topmargin=0 leftmargin=0 BGCOLOR=#F1F1F1><table border=0 width=625><td bgcolor=midnightblue><font color=#F1F1F1>This Usenet message\'s original ASCII form: </font></td></tr><tr><td width=449><br><br><font face=courier><UL><PRE>alistair wrote:\n> Can spin 2 particles be,in principle,electromagnetic in nature?\n\nIf one would add suitable interactions to QED, there probably could be\na bound state of two photons, which could have spin 0, 1, or 2,\ndepending on the way it is composed of the photons.\n\nSo, the answer is yes if one is prepared to modify QED.\nWithin the standard model, I believe that there are no such bound states.\n\n\nArnold Neumaier\n\n</UL></PRE></font></td></tr></table></BODY><HTML>');"> <IMG SRC=/images/buttons/ip.gif BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER ALT="View this Usenet post in original ASCII form"> View this Usenet post in original ASCII form </a></div><P></jabberwocky>alistair wrote:
> Can spin 2 particles be,in principle,electromagnetic in nature?
If one would add suitable interactions to QED, there probably could be
a bound state of two photons, which could have spin 0, 1, or 2,
depending on the way it is composed of the photons.
So, the answer is yes if one is prepared to modify QED.
Within the standard model, I believe that there are no such bound states.
Arnold Neumaier
<jabberwocky><div class="vbmenu_control"><a href="jabberwocky:;" onClick="newWindow=window.open('','usenetCode','toolbar=no, location=no,scrollbars=yes,resizable=yes,status=no ,width=650,height=400'); newWindow.document.write('<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Usenet ASCII</TITLE></HEAD><BODY topmargin=0 leftmargin=0 BGCOLOR=#F1F1F1><table border=0 width=625><td bgcolor=midnightblue><font color=#F1F1F1>This Usenet message\'s original ASCII form: </font></td></tr><tr><td width=449><br><br><font face=courier><UL><PRE>Arnold Neumaier <Arnold.Neumaier@univie.ac.at> wrote in message news:<412F4C64.70108@univie.ac.at>...\n> alistair wrote:\n> > Can spin 2 particles be,in principle,electromagnetic in nature?\n>\n> If one would add suitable interactions to QED, there probably could be\n> a bound state of two photons, which could have spin 0, 1, or 2,\n> depending on the way it is composed of the photons.\n>\n> So, the answer is yes if one is prepared to modify QED.\n> Within the standard model, I believe that there are no such bound states.\n>\n>\n> Arnold Neumaier\n\n\nThat might prove to be a very interesting version of QED. Isn\'t it\ntrue that exchange of virtual spin 2 gauge bosons results in only\nattractive forces?\n\n</UL></PRE></font></td></tr></table></BODY><HTML>');"> <IMG SRC=/images/buttons/ip.gif BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER ALT="View this Usenet post in original ASCII form"> View this Usenet post in original ASCII form </a></div><P></jabberwocky>Arnold Neumaier <Arnold.Neumaier@univie.ac.at> wrote in message news:<412F4C64.70108@univie.ac.at>...
> alistair wrote:
> > Can spin 2 particles be,in principle,electromagnetic in nature?
>
> If one would add suitable interactions to QED, there probably could be
> a bound state of two photons, which could have spin 0, 1, or 2,
> depending on the way it is composed of the photons.
>
> So, the answer is yes if one is prepared to modify QED.
> Within the standard model, I believe that there are no such bound states.
>
>
> Arnold Neumaier
That might prove to be a very interesting version of QED. Isn't it
true that exchange of virtual spin 2 gauge bosons results in only
attractive forces?
alistair
Aug31-04, 02:40 PM
<jabberwocky><div class="vbmenu_control"><a href="jabberwocky:;" onClick="newWindow=window.open('','usenetCode','toolbar=no, location=no,scrollbars=yes,resizable=yes,status=no ,width=650,height=400'); newWindow.document.write('<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Usenet ASCII</TITLE></HEAD><BODY topmargin=0 leftmargin=0 BGCOLOR=#F1F1F1><table border=0 width=625><td bgcolor=midnightblue><font color=#F1F1F1>This Usenet message\'s original ASCII form: </font></td></tr><tr><td width=449><br><br><font face=courier><UL><PRE>Igor said:\nArnold Neumaier <Arnold.Neumaier@univie.ac.at> wrote in message news:<412F4C64.70108@univie.ac.at>...\n> alistair wrote:\n> > Can spin 2 particles be,in principle,electromagnetic in nature?\n>\n> If one would add suitable interactions to QED, there probably could be\n> a bound state of two photons, which could have spin 0, 1, or 2,\n> depending on the way it is composed of the photons.\n>\n> So, the answer is yes if one is prepared to modify QED.\n> Within the standard model, I believe that there are no such bound states.\n>\n>\n> Arnold Neumaier\n\nIgor said:\n>That might prove to be a very interesting version of QED. Isn\'t it\n>true that exchange of virtual spin 2 gauge bosons results in only\n>attractive forces?\n\nAlistair says:\n\nDoug Sweetser said in sci.physics.research "spin 2 particles " :\n\n>when the exchanged particle carries even integer spin, the potential is\n>universally atractive (like charges and opposite charges attract).\n>Hence the spin of the graviton must be 0, 2, 4, ...\n\nAlistair:\nFermions (spin 1/2) exchange photons (spin 1).\nBut can a photon exchange a spin 2 with another photon.\nI think you would have to show that spin 1 = 2 x spin 1/2\nand spin 2 = 2 x spin 1 to draw a parallel.\nIn other words, that all particles involved are combinations of fermions.\n\n</UL></PRE></font></td></tr></table></BODY><HTML>');"> <IMG SRC=/images/buttons/ip.gif BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER ALT="View this Usenet post in original ASCII form"> View this Usenet post in original ASCII form </a></div><P></jabberwocky>Igor said:
Arnold Neumaier <Arnold.Neumaier@univie.ac.at> wrote in message news:<412F4C64.70108@univie.ac.at>...
> alistair wrote:
> > Can spin 2 particles be,in principle,electromagnetic in nature?
>
> If one would add suitable interactions to QED, there probably could be
> a bound state of two photons, which could have spin 0, 1, or 2,
> depending on the way it is composed of the photons.
>
> So, the answer is yes if one is prepared to modify QED.
> Within the standard model, I believe that there are no such bound states.
>
>
> Arnold Neumaier
Igor said:
>That might prove to be a very interesting version of QED. Isn't it
>true that exchange of virtual spin 2 gauge bosons results in only
>attractive forces?
Alistair says:
Doug Sweetser said in sci.physics.research "spin 2 particles " :
>when the exchanged particle carries even integer spin, the potential is
>universally atractive (like charges and opposite charges attract).
>Hence the spin of the graviton must be 0, 2, 4, ...
Alistair:
Fermions (spin 1/2) exchange photons (spin 1).
But can a photon exchange a spin 2 with another photon.
I think you would have to show that spin 1 = 2 x spin 1/2
and spin 2 = 2 x spin 1 to draw a parallel.
In other words, that all particles involved are combinations of fermions.
Arnold Neumaier
Aug31-04, 02:40 PM
<jabberwocky><div class="vbmenu_control"><a href="jabberwocky:;" onClick="newWindow=window.open('','usenetCode','toolbar=no, location=no,scrollbars=yes,resizable=yes,status=no ,width=650,height=400'); newWindow.document.write('<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Usenet ASCII</TITLE></HEAD><BODY topmargin=0 leftmargin=0 BGCOLOR=#F1F1F1><table border=0 width=625><td bgcolor=midnightblue><font color=#F1F1F1>This Usenet message\'s original ASCII form: </font></td></tr><tr><td width=449><br><br><font face=courier><UL><PRE>Igor wrote:\n> Arnold Neumaier <Arnold.Neumaier@univie.ac.at> wrote in message news:<412F4C64.70108@univie.ac.at>...\n>\n>>alista ir wrote:\n>>\n>>>Can spin 2 particles be,in principle,electromagnetic in nature?\n>>\n>>If one would add suitable interactions to QED, there probably could be\n>>a bound state of two photons, which could have spin 0, 1, or 2,\n>>depending on the way it is composed of the photons.\n>>\n>>So, the answer is yes if one is prepared to modify QED.\n>>Within the standard model, I believe that there are no such bound states.\n\n\n\n> That might prove to be a very interesting version of QED.\n\nBut it would be nonrenormalizable and hence have the same\nproblems as canonical quantum gravity...\n\n\n> Isn\'t it\n> true that exchange of virtual spin 2 gauge bosons results in only\n> attractive forces?\n\nYes.\n\n\nArnold Neumaier\n\n</UL></PRE></font></td></tr></table></BODY><HTML>');"> <IMG SRC=/images/buttons/ip.gif BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER ALT="View this Usenet post in original ASCII form"> View this Usenet post in original ASCII form </a></div><P></jabberwocky>Igor wrote:
> Arnold Neumaier <Arnold.Neumaier@univie.ac.at> wrote in message news:<412F4C64.70108@univie.ac.at>...
>
>>alistair wrote:
>>
>>>Can spin 2 particles be,in principle,electromagnetic in nature?
>>
>>If one would add suitable interactions to QED, there probably could be
>>a bound state of two photons, which could have spin 0, 1, or 2,
>>depending on the way it is composed of the photons.
>>
>>So, the answer is yes if one is prepared to modify QED.
>>Within the standard model, I believe that there are no such bound states.
> That might prove to be a very interesting version of QED.
But it would be nonrenormalizable and hence have the same
problems as canonical quantum gravity...
> Isn't it
> true that exchange of virtual spin 2 gauge bosons results in only
> attractive forces?
Yes.
Arnold Neumaier
Arnold Neumaier
Sep1-04, 04:55 AM
<jabberwocky><div class="vbmenu_control"><a href="jabberwocky:;" onClick="newWindow=window.open('','usenetCode','toolbar=no, location=no,scrollbars=yes,resizable=yes,status=no ,width=650,height=400'); newWindow.document.write('<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Usenet ASCII</TITLE></HEAD><BODY topmargin=0 leftmargin=0 BGCOLOR=#F1F1F1><table border=0 width=625><td bgcolor=midnightblue><font color=#F1F1F1>This Usenet message\'s original ASCII form: </font></td></tr><tr><td width=449><br><br><font face=courier><UL><PRE>\nalistair wrote:\n\n> Fermions (spin 1/2) exchange photons (spin 1).\n> But can a photon exchange a spin 2 with another photon.\n\nOf course, if the right interactions are there.\nIf the Lagrangian contains a term a_k^* a_j^* a_j and its adjoint\na_j^* a_j a_k, the resulting Feynman rules give a diagram in which\ntwo j-particles exchange a k-particle.\n\n\nArnold Neumaier\n\n\n\n</UL></PRE></font></td></tr></table></BODY><HTML>');"> <IMG SRC=/images/buttons/ip.gif BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER ALT="View this Usenet post in original ASCII form"> View this Usenet post in original ASCII form </a></div><P></jabberwocky>alistair wrote:
> Fermions (spin 1/2) exchange photons (spin 1).
> But can a photon exchange a spin 2 with another photon.
Of course, if the right interactions are there.
If the Lagrangian contains a term a_k^* a_j^* a_j and its adjoint
a_j^* a_j a_k, the resulting Feynman rules give a diagram in which
two j-particles exchange a k-particle.
Arnold Neumaier
alistair wrote:
> Can spin 2 particles be,in principle,electromagnetic in nature?
Arnold Neumaier:
>If one would add suitable interactions to QED, there probably could be
>a bound state of two photons, which could have spin 0, 1, or 2,
>depending on the way it is composed of the photons.
>So, the answer is yes if one is prepared to modify QED.
>Within the standard model, I believe that there are no such bound states.
Alistair:
What would bind the photons together?
<jabberwocky><div class="vbmenu_control"><a href="jabberwocky:;" onClick="newWindow=window.open('','usenetCode','toolbar=no, location=no,scrollbars=yes,resizable=yes,status=no ,width=650,height=400'); newWindow.document.write('<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Usenet ASCII</TITLE></HEAD><BODY topmargin=0 leftmargin=0 BGCOLOR=#F1F1F1><table border=0 width=625><td bgcolor=midnightblue><font color=#F1F1F1>This Usenet message\'s original ASCII form: </font></td></tr><tr><td width=449><br><br><font face=courier><UL><PRE>kurious <alistair@goforit64.fsnet.co.uk> writes\n>alistair wrote:\n>> Can spin 2 particles be,in principle,electromagnetic in nature?\n>\n>Arnold Neumaier:\n>\n>>If one would add suitable interactions to QED, there probably could\n>be\n>>a bound state of two photons, which could have spin 0, 1, or 2,\n>>depending on the way it is composed of the photons.\n>>So, the answer is yes if one is prepared to modify QED.\n>>Within the standard model, I believe that there are no such bound\n>states.\n>\n>Alistair:\n>\n>What would bind the photons together?\n\nI\'m sure this must have been followed up by someone somewhere.\nThe implication from what has been posted before in this thread is that\nif one postulates a small modification to the standard model such that\nsome small binding occurs then hey presto graviton-like particles and\nthus at least something that looks a bit like gravity.\n\nOne presumes that 3-way and 4-way binding would be at such a low level\nthat they could be neglected, or at least turn out something useful...\n\nThere are speculations from time to time that photons might have a very\nsmall mass, if that were to be true, then would that affect any of the\nabove?\n\n--\nOz\nThis post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious.\n\nBTOPENWORLD address about to cease. DEMON address no longer in use.\n>>Use oz@farmeroz.port995.com<<\nozacoohdb@despammed.com still functions.\n\n</UL></PRE></font></td></tr></table></BODY><HTML>');"> <IMG SRC=/images/buttons/ip.gif BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER ALT="View this Usenet post in original ASCII form"> View this Usenet post in original ASCII form </a></div><P></jabberwocky>kurious <alistair@goforit64.fsnet.co.uk> writes
>alistair wrote:
>> Can spin 2 particles be,in principle,electromagnetic in nature?
>
>Arnold Neumaier:
>
>>If one would add suitable interactions to QED, there probably could
>be
>>a bound state of two photons, which could have spin 0, 1, or 2,
>>depending on the way it is composed of the photons.
>>So, the answer is yes if one is prepared to modify QED.
>>Within the standard model, I believe that there are no such bound
>states.
>
>Alistair:
>
>What would bind the photons together?
I'm sure this must have been followed up by someone somewhere.
The implication from what has been posted before in this thread is that
if one postulates a small modification to the standard model such that
some small binding occurs then hey presto graviton-like particles and
thus at least something that looks a bit like gravity.
One presumes that 3-way and 4-way binding would be at such a low level
that they could be neglected, or at least turn out something useful...
There are speculations from time to time that photons might have a very
small mass, if that were to be true, then would that affect any of the
above?
--
Oz
This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious.
BTOPENWORLD address about to cease. DEMON address no longer in use.
>>Use oz@farmeroz.port995.com<<
ozacoohdb@despammed.com still functions.
alistair
Sep14-04, 12:08 PM
<jabberwocky><div class="vbmenu_control"><a href="jabberwocky:;" onClick="newWindow=window.open('','usenetCode','toolbar=no, location=no,scrollbars=yes,resizable=yes,status=no ,width=650,height=400'); newWindow.document.write('<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Usenet ASCII</TITLE></HEAD><BODY topmargin=0 leftmargin=0 BGCOLOR=#F1F1F1><table border=0 width=625><td bgcolor=midnightblue><font color=#F1F1F1>This Usenet message\'s original ASCII form: </font></td></tr><tr><td width=449><br><br><font face=courier><UL><PRE>Oz said:\n>I\'m sure this must have been followed up by someone somewhere.\n>The implication from what has been posted before in this thread is\nthat\n>if one postulates a small modification to the standard model such\nthat\n>some small binding occurs then hey presto graviton-like particles and\n>thus at least something that looks a bit like gravity.\n\nAlistair:\n\nIf the small binding means that the spin 2 splits into 2 x spin 1\nfairly\noften (for example when 2 spin 2 particles scatter off one another -\nin analogy to photons which are also bosons scattering off one\nanother), would the spin 1\nphotons have a higher probability of absorption than the spin 2\nparticle -\nwould they increase the net force between a proton and an electron?\n\n</UL></PRE></font></td></tr></table></BODY><HTML>');"> <IMG SRC=/images/buttons/ip.gif BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER ALT="View this Usenet post in original ASCII form"> View this Usenet post in original ASCII form </a></div><P></jabberwocky>Oz said:
>I'm sure this must have been followed up by someone somewhere.
>The implication from what has been posted before in this thread is
that
>if one postulates a small modification to the standard model such
that
>some small binding occurs then hey presto graviton-like particles and
>thus at least something that looks a bit like gravity.
Alistair:
If the small binding means that the spin 2 splits into 2 x spin 1
fairly
often (for example when 2 spin 2 particles scatter off one another -
in analogy to photons which are also bosons scattering off one
another), would the spin 1
photons have a higher probability of absorption than the spin 2
particle -
would they increase the net force between a proton and an electron?
Arnold Neumaier
Sep24-04, 08:07 AM
<jabberwocky><div class="vbmenu_control"><a href="jabberwocky:;" onClick="newWindow=window.open('','usenetCode','toolbar=no, location=no,scrollbars=yes,resizable=yes,status=no ,width=650,height=400'); newWindow.document.write('<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Usenet ASCII</TITLE></HEAD><BODY topmargin=0 leftmargin=0 BGCOLOR=#F1F1F1><table border=0 width=625><td bgcolor=midnightblue><font color=#F1F1F1>This Usenet message\'s original ASCII form: </font></td></tr><tr><td width=449><br><br><font face=courier><UL><PRE>kurious wrote:\n> alistair wrote:\n>\n>>Can spin 2 particles be,in principle,electromagnetic in nature?\n>\n> Arnold Neumaier:\n>\n>>If one would add suitable interactions to QED, there probably could\n> be\n>\n>>a bound state of two photons, which could have spin 0, 1, or 2,\n>>depending on the way it is composed of the photons.\n>>So, the answer is yes if one is prepared to modify QED.\n>>Within the standard model, I believe that there are no such bound\n> states.\n>\n> Alistair:\n>\n> What would bind the photons together?\n\nAn interaction term like (F^2)^2 in the action, perhaps,\nwhich would generate photon self-interactions.\nBut it would have to be seen by computing an effective field\ntheory approximation whether this allows a bound state.\n\nThe question was a question of principle, not one of actually\ndemonstrating one...\n\n\nArnold Neumaier\n\n</UL></PRE></font></td></tr></table></BODY><HTML>');"> <IMG SRC=/images/buttons/ip.gif BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER ALT="View this Usenet post in original ASCII form"> View this Usenet post in original ASCII form </a></div><P></jabberwocky>kurious wrote:
> alistair wrote:
>
>>Can spin 2 particles be,in principle,electromagnetic in nature?
>
> Arnold Neumaier:
>
>>If one would add suitable interactions to QED, there probably could
> be
>
>>a bound state of two photons, which could have spin 0, 1, or 2,
>>depending on the way it is composed of the photons.
>>So, the answer is yes if one is prepared to modify QED.
>>Within the standard model, I believe that there are no such bound
> states.
>
> Alistair:
>
> What would bind the photons together?
An interaction term like (F^2)^2 in the action, perhaps,
which would generate photon self-interactions.
But it would have to be seen by computing an effective field
theory approximation whether this allows a bound state.
The question was a question of principle, not one of actually
demonstrating one...
Arnold Neumaier
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