Are Novak and Lipscomb involved in political scandal?

[GENIERE]

http://www.suntimes.com/output/novak/cst-nws-novak27.html

http://www.suntimes.com/output/elect/cst-nws-lips27.html

 

[JohnDubYa]

Uh-oh! I am starting to get the idea that the Swift Boat Veterans are mounting a counter-attack.

Kerry has some explaining to do over the next two months. There are simply too many people who discount his record.

I was astonished by Kerry's version" [in his book Tour of Duty] of what happened Dec. 2, Schachte said Thursday. When asked to support the Kerry critics in the swift boat controversy, Schachte said, "I didn't want to get involved." But he said he gradually began to change his mind when he saw his own involvement and credibility challenged, starting with Davis on CNN's "Crossfire" on Aug. 12.

... Schachte said he never has been contacted by or talked to anybody in the Bush-Cheney campaign or any Republican organization. He said he has been a political independent who votes for candidates of both parties.

 

[amp]

No John just a few. There are more that support Kerry's side at least so far. And the record still supports Kerry.

 

[kat]

No John just a few. There are more that support Kerry's side at least so far. And the record still supports Kerry.

I'm beginning to question your mathematical ability... Over 250 Swift Boat Vets and still counting...Most of Kerry's chain of command...17 out of 23 officers who served with Kerry...you have swift boat vets who have had experience..day to day experience with Kerry more then 60 of these Vet's have been awarded purple hearts, who have given eyewitness accounts and even who have been in the same boat as Kerry (which is you're sides claim to relevancy not theirs, as they are aware of how Swift Boats operated). I think your side is being a little dishonest in making this claim.

 

[JohnDubYa]

Including one Rear Admiral who was not even part of the Swift Boat campaign.

 

[amp]

NY Times 8/27/04 Op-Ed - Hienman (I misspelled the name I think).
as for being on the same boat as Kerry, Kat that can be said without them going on missions with him. All the men who were on his boat as far as I know, who went on missions with him refute swift boat vets.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Well, Bush is now playing his little band of angry men for all its worth. The truth of this that these people feel that they were betrayed by Kerry. His outspoken stance against the war, followed by his testimony in front of Congress made enemies for life. One of these guys was even the attack dog used on Kerry by Nixon for crying out loud! Then as now, the attack was bogus and un-American. That happens to men like Kerry who stand up for what's right; you make enemies. Bitterness drives this worn out clan of Swift betrayers; bitterness for the perceived betrayal by Kerry. That, and Texas Republican oil money.

Today Bush announced that he believes that Kerry did not lie and he should be proud of his record. So we see the typical Bush style tactic. First, perpetuate the lie, then pretend to be the nice guy rising above the frey. This will backfire on Bush. He has seen his short term gain, and he thinks he got away with it, but people don't like sneaky liars, which is rightly how this will reflect on the Bush and his campaign before November.

One of your oh so loyal Swift Boat vets is in hot water in Portland after admitting that he really didn't know what Kerry did in Vietnam. In fact he only repeated what he was told by others. So now we can easily see a proof of the truth of this situation. The swift boat vets are lying. By their actions they dishonor themselves, the political process, and our country.

Also, I believe Njorl already proved that none of these men actually served with Kerry. The men who really do know Kerry stand behind him as a genuine war hero.

One final comment. We have a new political group in Portland today: The Oregon Republicans for Kerry. This group includes many prominent Republicans from the NW.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Oh yes, here is why I'm now sure about Kerry's claims in all of this. There was none dirtier than Nixon. Nixon tried and failed to take Kerry down when he spoke out and testified to Congress. Nixon tried his best while at this height of power. If something was there, Nixon would have found it.

The truth: Kerry is a war hero.

Bush's people tried to disgrace a genuine hero in order to win the weasel his hole.

 

[JohnDubYa]

That's all fine, Ivan, but you never addressed the Admiral's comments that were linked. Is he lying, too?

 

[Ivan Seeking]

He wasn't there. He is just another angry man with a 30 year old chip on his shoulder. You need to understand how this kind of stuff festers with time. People sometimes grow old and bitter.

 

[JohnDubYa]

The Rear Admiral wasn't there?

Now you are claiming a Rear Admiral is old and bitter (without even knowing him). And you say the Bush team stoops low.

 

[kat]

NY Times 8/27/04 Op-Ed - Hienman (I misspelled the name I think).
as for being on the same boat as Kerry, Kat that can be said without them going on missions with him.

erm, it was a training mission...kerry was not the officer in charge..Schacte's call sign was Batman. Kerry's was Robin...They were in THE boat together...it was a Boston Whaler..smaller then the swift boats...no enemy fire according to the Officer in charge..who is now a Rear Admiral... Kerry injured himself..accidently...you know..self inlficted..asked to be awarded...was turned down...applied again for an award..this time circumnavigating the OIC..ew Kerry's a sneaky dirty rat..

All the men who were on his boat as far as I know, who went on missions with him refute swift boat vets.

Then we just got to come to the conclusion that you just don't know what you're talking about.. Steve Gardner does not refute the Swift Vets and he was Kerry's gunner mate on the PC-44.
As for Kerry's "Band of Brothers" it consists of:
Jim Rassmann - US Army, Green Beret, served one documentable day with Kerry, not a crewmate

The Reverend David Alston - may have been a crewmate for one week - not yet verified

Skip Barker- OinC of PCF 31 - was not a crewmate

Steve Hatch- PCF 44 crewmate (would have no knowledge of the medals)

Jim McDevitt - US Marine, met Kerry in 1972 while recuperating in the hospital - not a crewmate

Mike Medeiros - PCF 94 crewmate

Pat Runyon - spent one night on the "Boston Whaler" with Kerry, not a crewmate

Wade Sanders - OinC of PCF 98, not a crewmate ( did not witness any of Kerry's medal incidents)

Del Sandusky- PCF 94 crewmate

Fred Short- PCF 94 crewmate

Gene Thorson- PCF 94 crewmate

Jim Wasser - PCF 44 crewmate (would have no knowledge of the medals)

Drew Whitlow- PCF 44 crewmate (would have no knowledge of the medals)

Bill Zaladonis - PCF 44 crewmate (would have no knowledge of the medals)

So, of the 14 men that Kerry claimed were Swift boat crewmates, only eight were. Two commanded other swifts. One may have served with him for a week. Another served with him for about 3 hours. One spent a day with him. And one didn't meet him until 1972.

 

[GENIERE]

The entire US Navy Is old, embittered...


"But according to a U.S. Navy spokesman, "Kerry's record is incorrect. The Navy has never issued a 'combat V' to anyone for a Silver Star."

 

[Dissident Dan]

11 of the 12 men who served with Kerry on his swift boat are on his side. But, of course, that won't matter to any of you because you really don't care about his service. You just want to see him go down because you don't like his politics.

 

[JohnDubYa]

You just want to see him go down because you don't like his politics.

Sounds like those that criticized Bush over the AWOL incident.

So Dan, do you think the Admiral is lying? You should have some opinion of his statements.

 

[Hurkyl]

11 of the 12 men who served with Kerry on his swift boat are on his side.

Look at it from my POV, who knows little about the incident.

Kat has just given a specific list of people, apparently those claimed to have served on the boat with Kerry, and explained that several of them could not have done so.

Then I see this response.


Now, I won't just take Kat's word for it, but your quote was disingenious at best, and tends to support the hypothesis that the counterargument is nonexistant.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

The Rear Admiral wasn't there?

Now you are claiming a Rear Admiral is old and bitter (without even knowing him). And you say the Bush team stoops low.

I know he wasn't on the river with Kerry when Kerry was under fire.

When Bush now says he believes Kerry's story, and Kerry should be proud of his war record, isn't he calling this guy a liar? Maybe you had better check with GWB to find out why he no longer believes the Swift Boat Veterans.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Now, I won't just take Kat's word for it, but your quote was disingenious at best, and tends to support the hypothesis that the counterargument is nonexistant.

Yes we see a heck of a lot of alleged facts with nothing to back them up.

Edit: Pretty soon the right will be aguing that Bush's tour of duty was just as dangerous as Kerry's.

How disgraceful that Bush allowed or financed this effort. Kerry was in Vietnam! That fact alone demands that his life was in extreme jeapordy...or does someone have a link that proves this wrong as well. Kerry chose to serve - to really serve his country - and Bush didn't. Sure, let's spend more time trying to dishonor this hero Republicans. This only proves how desparately we need Kerry, an honorable man, to win.

 

[kat]

Can you cut the hyperbole..it's really making me want to puke.

 

[JohnDubYa]

When Bush now says he believes Kerry's story, and Kerry should be proud of his war record, isn't he calling this guy a liar? Maybe you had better check with GWB to find out why he no longer believes the Swift Boat Veterans.

Perhaps he was just being polite.

 

[JohnDubYa]

Ivan, you never answered my question: Do you think the Rear Admiral is lying?

 

[GENIERE]

Fom Chicargo Sun-TimeS:

Former Navy Secretary John Lehman has no idea where a Silver Star citation displayed on Democratic presidential nominee John Kerry's campaign Web site came from, he said Friday. The citation appears over Lehman's signature.


"It is a total mystery to me. I never saw it. I never signed it. I never approved it. And the additional language it contains was not written by me," he said.

 

[kat]

yadda yadda

11 of the 12 men who served with Kerry on his swift boat are on his side. But, of course, that won't matter to any of you because you really don't care about his service. You just want to see him go down because you don't like his politics.

I don't know if this is in response to my post listing who is who but, you really need to get a new talking points memo from the DNC. Yours is outdated.

And no, I don't like his politics...which includes, for the past 30 years, smearing the memories of War hero's who did FULL tours in vietnam. Give me a break. I'd like to see some discussion of his Senate record, but we know he doesn't want that because being to the left of the left isn't going to win him the presidency.

 

[Gza]

And no, I don't like his politics...which includes, for the past 30 years, smearing the memories of War hero's

Since when is protesting an unjust war "smearing the memories of War heroes"?

 

[kat]

Did I say protesting? Did I say protesting?..when did I say anything about protesting? :zzz: :surprise:

 

[Dissident Dan]

Look at it from my POV, who knows little about the incident.

Kat has just given a specific list of people, apparently those claimed to have served on the boat with Kerry, and explained that several of them could not have done so.

I couldn't find a good source online that said "11 of 12" specifically, but I've heard it on the major news networks. Check out http://factcheck.org/ and do a search on "swift boat veterans".

 

[Dissident Dan]

And no, I don't like his politics...which includes, for the past 30 years, smearing the memories of War hero's who did FULL tours in vietnam. Give me a break. I'd like to see some discussion of his Senate record, but we know he doesn't want that because being to the left of the left isn't going to win him the presidency.

So, if people in our military do bad things, we should just keep that knowledge to ourselves?

 

[JohnDubYa]

http://www.suntimes.com/output/elect/cst-nws-lips28.html

Could John Kerry have forged the signature? (I don't know how awards are given, so I don't know if such a forgery is possible.)

Okay, so let me get this straight:

Former Secretary of the Navy John Lehman is a bitter old man, bought off by Republicans, who "was not there." Have I got it down yet?

 

[Dissident Dan]

It appears so.

 

[kat]

So, if people in our military do bad things, we should just keep that knowledge to ourselves?

Does the term "smearing" suggest honesty to you?