Helen Thomas to Jews: Get home to Germany & Poland!

[arildno]

The veteran in the White Housepress corps in the USA, Helen Thomas, makes her own ideas about Jews quite clear in this little gem:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQcQdWBqt14

That the majority of the Jews of the Israelis, descend from those who were driven out/fled from Arab lands post-48 (after thousands of years of living there), doesn't concern this icon of the liberal left one bit..

[chemisttree]

So how long do you think it will be before she 'retires'?

[mheslep]

Thomas was a slime ball even before she went around the bend.

[arildno]

So how long do you think it will be before she 'retires'?

She'll ooze around for the next decade or so, her appearance being more and more similar to the Wicked Witch in "The Wizard of Oz"

[TubbaBlubba]

What the hell was she thinking when she made that statement?

[arildno]

What the hell was she thinking when she made that statement?
Yeah, she reflects "badly" on the leftie movement, doesn't she?

Although she was just candid about her real views, shared by many political friends of hers..

Dreadfully embarassing to have such clumsy individuals on the "right side of morality", isn't it?

[leroyjenkens]

Why does she care where they live? They could just as easily tell her to go home, whatever random location it is they choose as her "home".

[Cyrus]

Yeah, she reflects "badly" on the leftie movement, doesn't she?

Although she was just candid about her real views, shared by many political friends of hers..

Dreadfully embarassing to have such clumsy individuals on the "right side of morality", isn't it?

Arildno, you and I both know that Israel relies on immigration of Jews into the country to maintain its population, and hence its power. Otherwise, they run the risk of loosing power to the Arabs based solely on demographics. So, what she said isn't false.

I am also not so sure why you keep saying the "lefties" and the "leftists". FYI, the "righ-ists" (is that even a word?) support Israel mainly because they are bible loving Christians, and anti-gay anti evolutionists (for the most part). So you're not really backing a 'winning' horse by siding with the right either.

[Ivan Seeking]

I am also not so sure why you keep saying the "lefties" and the "leftists". FYI, the "righ-ists" (is that even a word?) support Israel mainly because they are bible loving Christians, and anti-gay anti evolutionists (for the most part). So you're not really backing a 'winning' horse by siding with the right either.

Especially considering that he doesn't even live here!

I seriously doubt that she meant what it sounded like. Anyone making the leap that this was intended to reference the holocaust, is just fishing for whales in a fishbowl. This is silly.

[jreelawg]

I read her bio on wiki, I guess her parents were immigrants from Lebanon. I disagree with her about Israel, but Fascist doesn't seam to be an appropriate word.

[arildno]

Especially considering that he doesn't even live here!

I seriously doubt that she meant what it sounded like. Anyone making the leap that this was intended to reference the holocaust, is just fishing for whales in a fishbowl. This is silly.

Since she is a wilfully ignorant woman, she is undeserving of any better characteristic.
The majority of Israel's present day inhabitants are Sephardic Jews, not those from Poland and Germany.

Those were, for the most part, exterminated, the major Ashkenazi population groups came from USA, Britain, France and Eastern Europe.

[arildno]

I am also not so sure why you keep saying the "lefties" and the "leftists". FYI, the "righ-ists" (is that even a word?) support Israel mainly because they are bible loving Christians, and anti-gay anti evolutionists (for the most part). So you're not really backing a 'winning' horse by siding with the right either.

Even the most bigoted American mid-West village in the 1950s provided for a better life for gays than any Islamic country.

Unless you are interested in small boys, when a job at the local madrasa will suit you nicely.

[arildno]

Helen Thomas is not a fascist, but a person willing to point out an obvious truth. If there is no room in Palestine for anybody who is not a Jew, then the hard-line Israelis are guilty of the same tactics they fled in Europe. IMO, the US should withdraw all financial aid to Israel until it commits to real peace talks and a two-state solution, and sticks to it.
This is just laughable.

Tribalist thinking precludes people from treating The Other systematically BETTER than One's Own. Sad, but true.

Thus, in order to find out what the one party has in store for the other party, the maximum they'll likely to give is no better than the treatment of their own indigenous population.

Thus, you should compare how Israel treats its own citizens relative to how Hamas (or any other Islamic regime) treats their own, and choose your allies accordingly.

Condemning your chosen ally for war crimes when those happen should never, ever, make you switch allegiance&support for the other side's nightmare regime.

[jreelawg]

Since she is a wilfully ignorant woman, she is undeserving of any better characteristic.
The majority of Israel's present day inhabitants are Sephardic Jews, not those from Poland and Germany.

Those were, for the most part, exterminated, the major Ashkenazi population groups came from USA, Britain, France and Eastern Europe.

Reading about it on Wiki, I came up with contradictory information. I'm not disputing your point, but wiki says that about 80% of all jews in the world today are Ashkenazi, and that Ashkenazi jews make up the largest group of jews in Israel as well.

My great, great, great, grandfather was a Ashkenazi jew, his son, immigrated to the U.S. just before world war 1.

"Today, Ashkenazi Jews constitute the largest group among Jews,[5] and among Israeli Jews as well."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi_Jews

[arildno]

Reading about it on Wiki, I came up with contradictory information. I'm not disputing your point, but wiki says that about 80% of all jews in the world today are Ashkenazi, and that Ashkenazi jews make up the largest group of jews in Israel as well.

My great, great, great, grandfather was a Ashkenazi jew, his son, immigrated to the U.S. just before world war 1.

"Today, Ashkenazi Jews constitute the largest group among Jews,[5] and among Israeli Jews as well."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi_Jews

I am glad you source your claim, so I must do likewise! :smile:

The sub-population of the Sephardim with direct Middle Eastern/North African descent is called the Mizrahi Jews.

According a 2009 census, the Israeli Jews of Mizrahi extraction is 3.1 million, which is 41.3% of Israel's total population, and 52-54% av the total Jewish population in Israel:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mizrahi_Jews

That's where I got my information from, it is easy to get lost in mutually contradictory data...:frown:

[TubbaBlubba]

Yeah, she reflects "badly" on the leftie movement, doesn't she?

Although she was just candid about her real views, shared by many political friends of hers..

Dreadfully embarassing to have such clumsy individuals on the "right side of morality", isn't it?

I don't know, I certainly don't identify "liberals" as left. Liberal, in my world, certainly means that you're on the right part of the spectrum. I'm more towards the socialist left.

Yes, you can shiver now. No, I don't support the actions of Stalin or Mao Zedong.

[mheslep]

Helen Thomas is not a fascist,
Thomas is suffering from senile dementia and well into it. Fascism is not about anti-Semitism though it accommodates it quite nicely; anti-Semitism was a horrific but incidental aspect of fascism in Nazi Germany, not seen, for instance, in Mussolini's Italy.

[TubbaBlubba]

Thomas is suffering from senile dementia and well into it. Fascism is not about anti-Semitism though it accommodates it quite nicely; anti-Semitism was a horrific but incidental aspect of fascism in Nazi Germany, not seen, for instance, in Mussolini's Italy.

"Fascism" is a broad and often misused term. For instance, before World War II, many, many people admired Mussolini's Italy; Not only Hitler but Churchill, and Gandhi (who said something akin to "I wish I was a superman like Mussolini").

Of course, war crimes tend to undermine one's reputation and since then fascism is pretty much a pejorative term.

I can't really comment on Mussolini myself since I'm not terribly familiar with the topic.

[arildno]

"Fascism" is a broad and often misused term.

Certainly.

Most oftenly today, it is, along with "racism", abused&savoured by leftists to characterize their opponents, as well as smearing USA and Israel with those terms.

If you are Swedish, you should be very well acquainted by the despicable, systematic use of those terms onto the party SD.

[TubbaBlubba]

Certainly.

Most oftenly today, it is, along with "racism", abused&savoured by leftists to characterize their opponents, as well as smearing USA and Israel with those terms.

If you are Swedish, you should be very well acquainted by the despicable, systematic use of those terms onto the party SD.

Oh, gee.

SD is a dumb party which promotes discrimination against homosexuals, women and immigrants, they're plain old conservative racists in nice suits.

That said, AFA (Antifascist Action) and the like are equally dumb, and probably cause more short-term trouble than any fascists or nazis we may have in Sweden. They give the left a bad reputation.

[arildno]

1. SD is a dumb party which promotes discrimination against homosexuals
Documentation?
Swedish links okay, party programme elements in that direction required.

2. SD is a dumb party which promotes discrimination against women
The same required, as above.

[TubbaBlubba]

1.
Documentation?
Swedish links okay, party programme elements in that direction required.

2.
The same required, as above.

Certainly.

http://sverigedemokraterna.se/vara-asikter/
http://sverigedemokraterna.se/valet-2010/sla-vakt-om-familjen/
http://sverigedemokraterna.se/vara-asikter/riktlinjer-for-en-sverigedemokratisk-kommunpolitik/

I dagens Sverige kan vi se en samhällsutveckling där den traditionella familjens betydelse och familjelivets värden i allt högre utsträckning har kommit att ifrågasättas och nedvärderas. Föräldrar som väljer att stanna hemma med sina barn under de första åren diskrimineras till förmån för andra barnomsorgsalternativ och tendensen till statlig styrning av familjernas inre liv har blivit allt tydligare. Det höga antalet skilsmässor och ett allt starkare ifrågasättande av varje barns rätt till en mor och en far riskerar att förstärka känslan av otrygghet och rotlöshet hos många av våra barn.

Notice the mention of "... questioning each child's right to a mother and father...", which is a not-so-subtle jab at homosexuals adopting children.

Valfriheten och mångfalden inom förskola och barnomsorg är en rättvisefråga. Sverigedemokraterna vill stimulera föräldrar till att spendera mer tid med sina barn och ser därför vårdnadsbidraget som ett bra alternativ inom barnomsorgen. Vi ser också positivt på mer långtgående lösningar som till exempel Nackamodellen, där föräldrarna kontrakteras av kommunen som dagbarnvårdare åt sina egna barn.

An obvious "housewife trap".

Flickor och pojkar är födda olika och detta förhållande skall bejakas. Sverigedemokraterna anser därför att kommunerna inte skall bedriva barnomsorg, utifrån ett genusperspektiv, där olikheterna inte tillåts.
This quote can be interpreted in many ways, but it clearly speaks toward treating girls and boys differently; Categorizing by gender rather than individual.

There's more, but I don't feel like discussing an unimportant fringe party of a fringe country in this topic.

In general, their politics are extremely populistic towards those who don't like immigrants - Take away all the rights of immigrants, make Sweden as uncomfortable for them as possible, oh, and give more money to older people, sick people, schools, everything. They're not a serious party, which is obvious if you read their policies thoroughly.

[arildno]

I will translate those comments from SD, and comment upon them later on. If I have made a faulty translation, TB, I hope, will offer corrections:

A: In today's Sweden, we can see a societal development where the significance of the traditional family, and the values of family life to an increasing extent have become questioned and de-valued. Parents who choose to remain at home with their children during their first years of life are being discriminated against relative to other child care alternatives, and the tendency towards governmental domination of the inner life of the family has become even more apparent. The high number of divorces and an increasing questioning of a child's right to a father and a mother incur the risk of strengthening the feeling of insecurity and rootlessness by many of our children

B. The freedom of choice and the diversity within pre-school and child care is an issue of justice. The Swedish Democrats will stimulate parents to spend more time with their children and sees the "guardian alimony" as a good alternative within child care. We are also positive to the Nacka-model, where parents are contracted by their municipality as day care guardians for their own children

C. Girls and boys are born different and this fact should be encouraged. The Swedish Democrats is therefore of the view that the municipalities should not do child care, out of that type of "common perspective", where differences in treatments are not allowed.

[TubbaBlubba]

In the first sentence of A, it's "the values of family life", not the "world of family life".

"Considered" or "encouraged" is probably the best translation of "bejakas".

[arildno]

In the first sentence of A, it's "the values of family life", not the "world of family life".

"Considered" or "encouraged" is probably the best translation of "bejakas".

Corrections made. Thank you.

[Al68]

I don't know, I certainly don't identify "liberals" as left. Liberal, in my world, certainly means that you're on the right part of the spectrum. I'm more towards the socialist left.The rather strange situation in the U.S. is that the word "liberal" is used to mean the opposite of liberal according to the classical definition.

I don't know if this habit started by people using the word sarcastically, or for the purpose of misleading people.

Another complication is that the "socialist left" doesn't like the word "socialist". They favor socialist ideology but object to the use of the word "socialist". I can only guess that they object because of the word's past association with Hitler, Stalin, etc. I can see why they would think "liberalism" sounds better, but it's misleading to say the least.

[arildno]

Just a side-note to TubbaBlubba:

When I have used the word "liberal"/"liberal left", I have taken into account that most members (about 80% or so) at PF are Americans.
Thus, I use those terms in a manner intended to be understood with common US usage, although their exact translation would be incomprehensible/nonsensical in, for example, Norwegian.

What WE call "liberals" are what Americans call "libertarians".

[TubbaBlubba]

I've never quite understood what American's liberals are anyway. Socio-liberal?

Al68: Of course. Aren't association games wonderful?

[Al68]

What WE call "liberals" are what Americans call "libertarians".Yes, exactly. Or more commonly "far-right" or "right wing wacko extremist" or something else that just doesn't sound as nice as the accurate word "liberal".

[Al68]

I've never quite understood what American's liberals are anyway. Socio-liberal?

Al68: Of course. Aren't association games wonderful?LOL. The funny thing is that most in the U.S. (relatively libertarian) are completely oblivious to the fact that word association games are even being used.

They spend their lives wondering why so many people think being "liberal" is a bad thing, not realizing that the word is being used to mean something else.

[arildno]

Yes, exactly. Or more commonly "far-right" or "right wing wacko extremist" or something else that just doesn't sound as nice as the accurate word "liberal".

Yeah, the Loony Left&Rabid Right make up the US political spectrum, I suppose..:smile:

[TubbaBlubba]

Yes, and about socialist policies in general, but I assume those large parties in Sweden wouldn't incorrectly use the word "liberal" to describe such policies.

I hate to bash my own country, but too many in the U.S. use a particular word because it "feels right" instead of based on what the word means. We are losing the language so to speak. With politics, words just don't have standardized meanings the way they should, mostly because politicians have abused the language too much and for too long.

We've got a single party which claims to be "liberal", Folkpartiet (The People's Party). Once upon a time they used to be about the free market, and freedom in general.

Now their biggest issue is that they want elitist education, and, hear this, MORE MILITARY DEFENSE. Totally liberal. They're trying to take the conservative banner from the Moderates in doing this (The Moderates are social democrats now a days, and the Social Democrats have become increasingly moderate as the years passed by. The Leftist Party (previously the Communist Party) is basically what the Socail Democrats were 40 or so years ago).

Our political denominations are just as big of a mess as America's, really, mostly because the only way for the "right-wing" parties to gain any votes, is to take agendas from the Social Democrats (which have been dominating since Per Albin Hansson and World War II). You could say that they built Sweden and the fairly functional social security system it has today. I don't like what they've been becoming since Palme, however, they're turning more and more into Supercorporation Friends Club. They were generally the target of ridicule by the Swedish -68 movements. There's a somewhat classic song (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTAvm_Fk09M) from -72 going like this, translated;

The capital raises the rent, and the government the living welfare
Thus one can fiddle somewhat with the iron-firm salary regulations
And even pay less in salary than the price for food and living
Since the government is more than willing to pay up if the costs of living have gotten a bit too expensive

(Kapitalet höjer hyrorna och staten bostadsbidragen
Så kan man fiffla en smula med den järnhårda lönelagen
Och till och med betala mindre i lön än priset för mat och för hyra
För staten skjuter så gärna till om levnadsomkostnaderna blivit alltför dyra)

It encompasses their more recent policies rather well.

This got way longer than I intended.

[OmCheeto]

Thomas is suffering from senile dementia and well into it.

Well, if you were as old as Moses, wouldn't you be senile too?

[Proton Soup]

Well, if you were as old as Moses, wouldn't you be senile too?

does this mean Helen will not be following us into the promised land ?

[tiny-tim]

From the Book of Kelly (http://www.stlyrics.com/songs/g/genekelly8815/mosessupposes299194.html) …

"Moses supposes his toeses are roses, but Moses supposes erroneously."

(:wink: Couldn't be a lily or a daphi daphi dilli
It's gotta be a rose 'cuz it rhymes with mose! :wink:)

[arildno]

Helen Thomas' prestige is rapidly eroding (as it should)

TIME's Joe Klein urges for having her stripped of front row privileges, and that the President or others shouldn't feel obliged to take her questions at all.
(A punishment I think would be wholly appropriate)

As yet, Hearst Newspapers have declined to comment whether Mrs. Thomas is to continue to write for them:
http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2010/06/06/helen-thomas-go-to-the-back-of-the-room/

[Gokul43201]

Even the most bigoted American mid-West village in the 1950s provided for a better life for gays than any Islamic country.This statement is based on your own extensive travels through bigoted mid-West villages in the 1950s and through all of the present day Islamic world, or do you have a citation to support this assertion?

Sodomy was illegal in Texas until the last decade [see Lawrence v. Texas, 2003], forget the 1950s (when it was illegal in virtually every part of the US [see, for instance Commonwealth v. Bonadio, 1980]). On the other hand, sodomy has been legal in Indonesia - the largest Muslim country - since before Texas grew up (except for the nearly separatist province of Aceh).

[arildno]

This statement is based on your own extensive travels through bigoted mid-West villages in the 1950s and through all of the present day Islamic world, or do you have a citation to support this assertion?

Sodomy was illegal in Texas until the last decade [see Lawrence v. Texas, 2003], forget the 1950s (when it was illegal in virtually every part of the US [see, for instance Commonwealth v. Bonadio, 1980]). On the other hand, sodomy has been legal in Indonesia - the largest Muslim country - since before Texas grew up (except for the nearly separatist province of Aceh).

Indonesia has, from the 1950s to about the 1990s with the fall of Suharto, been ruled by strong, secular militarist regimes (not unlike Turkey until recently).

In particular, Suharto counted upon the well-educated Christian population to serve in positions of trust, for example, they dominated the Secret Services, higher echelons of police, bureaucratchiks (along with secularist non-observant Muslims).
There was a deliberate policy of political exclusion of Islamist politicians.

In that sense, the Suharto regime cannot be called an "Islamic" regime.
That regime guarded, first and foremost, the legalistic legacy of the Dutch colonial power (on issues of private citizen rights, the Dutch have a very long history of tolerance of individuality). This is unravelling, as we speak.


After his fall from power, preceded/accompanied with vicious pogroms against the Chinese minorities, Indonesia is lapsing into Islamism, Aceh development being a spearhead into that future, the rather indifferent governmental handling of the Laskar Jihad events another.

[Gokul43201]

Indonesia has, from the 1950s to about the 1990s with the fall of Suharto, been ruled by strong, secular militarist regimes (not unlike Turkey until recently).Yet Turkey still does not have an anti-sodomy law. Nor does Jordan, or Mali, or Niger, or Tajikistan, or Kazakhstan, or Chad or Albania, or Azerbaijan. [this list comes from a single reference, but I'll withhold it momentarily to show how annoying it is to not cite your assertions]

In particular, Suharto counted upon the well-educated Christian population to serve in positions of trust, for example, they dominated the Secret Services, higher echelons of police, along with secularist non-observant Muslims.

In that sense, the Suharto regime cannot be called an "Islamic" regime.
That regime guarded, first and foremost, the legalistic legacy of the Dutch colonial power (on issues of private citizen rights, the Dutch have a very long history of tolerance of deviance). This is unravelling, as we speak.

After his fall from power, accompanied with vicious pogroms against the Chinese minorities, Indonesia is lapsing into Islamism, Aceh development being the spearhead in that future.All well and good. But it doesn't change the fact that your original statement is still entirely pulled out of the thin air.

The rules require citation of any factual claims that are not common knowledge. If there is no way to support an assertion, then that assertion has no place on this forum - period.

[arildno]

Okay, forum rules accepted. Retraction of statement, on basis of the Jordan evidence.

The Turkey&Indonesia "counter-evidence" doesn't hold.

[Gokul43201]

Good form.

...now back to the topic of the thread...

[Vanadium 50]

Good form.

...now back to the topic of the thread...

Too late. CNN just reported that she retired.

[chemisttree]

She'll ooze around for the next decade or so,...

Ha HA! My ticket in the office "Helen Thomas retirement pool" was a lot closer to two days than your 10 years! I WIN!

Of course, now that she is totally discraced and no one will let her speak to their graduating class, ghost write a book together (and astonishing thing for a journalist don't you think?), etc... WE ALL WIN!

Thank you Helen, thank you.

[Werg22]

Wow. This is reminiscent of a KGB hit against a political dissenter. A week, that's all it took.

[Office_Shredder]

Wow. This is reminiscent of a KGB hit against a political dissenter. A week, that's all it took.

I guess I missed the part where she was assassinated

[arildno]

Ha HA! My ticket in the office "Helen Thomas retirement pool" was a lot closer to two days than your 10 years! I WIN!

Of course, now that she is totally discraced and no one will let her speak to their graduating class, ghost write a book together (and astonishing thing for a journalist don't you think?), etc... WE ALL WIN!

Thank you Helen, thank you.

BUT, I'll say:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WczR2chAOc


Oops, wrong Helen witch, and neither of them are really dead, either..:frown:

[chemisttree]

I tend to go a different way in these matters. I wish Helen a loooonng life.

May you live a very long life, Helen.

[Proton Soup]

I tend to go a different way in these matters. I wish Helen a loooonng life.

May you live a very long life, Helen.

it will be interesting. i wonder if she will still write. the thing about this is, although it appears to be a career assassination, it also gives her freedom. she could now write openly about when she thinks israel is acting inappropriately.

[Evo]

The mentors have agreed to lock this thread due to continually being dragged off topic.