God Damnit, The ****ing Republicans Closed Their Convention With An Evangelit Prayer! [Archive]

wasteofo2

Aug30-04, 10:39 PM

So, who's going to get your vote? :wink:

- Warren
I'm 16, I can't even vote and the Republicans are getting me mad enough to use explicit words on the internet in capitol letters, man those guys are dispicable...

And man, I live in a suburb of New York, maybe an hour away from Madison Square Garden, and I have arrangements to go visit a republican family friend the night Bush's giving his speech when I really want to get down there and protest, ain't that just a kick in the face...

Kerrie

Aug30-04, 10:42 PM

waste, don't lump all of the republicans together just because of who the president is now...there are many who think bush is an idiot puppet.

wasteofo2

Aug30-04, 10:51 PM

waste, don't lump all of the republicans together just because of who the president is now...there are many who think bush is an idiot puppet.

It's not just Bush, it's everything they stand for on a national level. It's how the religious nutjobs have a stranglehold on the party, it's how they hate civil rights, it's how Democrats consistantly create more jobs than Republicans and they lie to people to convince them of the opposite, it's how they hate gay people, it's how they think they're so much better than everyone else when the economy constantly suffers under them and people lose welfare and social security under them, it's how Bush's racked up the hugest defecit in the history of the nation and acts like it's a non-issue, it's how they purposely blur patriotism and blind nationalism and have this black and white perspective that doesn't allow dissent to be considered, it's how they have no respect for the environment, it's how they BLATENTLY EXPLOITED 9/11 TONIGHT, it's everything about that damned party on a national scale.

Sure, tons of republicans have traditional, sane, conservative values, and the guys they're playing in prime-time are moderates, but man, those guys are the total anti-thesis of their platform and the administration's beliefs. I hope republicans elect someone like McCain in 2008 and can get back to a Theodore Roosevelt like state of mind.

kat

Aug30-04, 11:03 PM

LOL, I guess you're just not familiar with the tradition of opening both the Senate and House with a prayer!

wasteofo2

Aug30-04, 11:16 PM

LOL, I guess you're just not familiar with the tradition of opening both the Senate and House with a prayer!
Man, no I wasn't...

Is it like, silence and people pray to themselves, or is it like a sermon led by someone? Is it a constant thing like "We pray that our nation is always blessed, that peace will spread etc.", or is it a changing thing?

kat

Aug30-04, 11:23 PM

It's given by the Senate Chaplain. He writes his own stuff...or maybe it's really the word of God...via the Chaplain..I know that some senator's have said.."It's a little like talking to God" but not sure what that's s'posed ta mean.... He also prays for a rotating 20 congressmen a day. I believe he passes a card around so that they know which 20 they should pray for...gave out prayer books after Clintons Impeachment...hmmm that's all of the tidbits I can pull off the top of my head. He probably has a website somewhere. The present Chaplain has authored several books, although for the life of me I can't remember his name....

JohnDubYa

Aug30-04, 11:57 PM

You seriously need to get familiar with the Supreme Court decision in Marsh v. Chambers:

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=us&vol=463&invol=783

Held: The Nebraska Legislature's chaplaincy practice does not violate the Establishment Clause.

Bwahahahaha!!!!

Gokul43201

Aug31-04, 12:13 AM

What I find interesting is the list of primary speakers : No Tom DeLay, No Don Rumsfeld, No Trent Lott, No Rick Santorum - where is the Conservative Backbone of this party, the real decision-makers...where are they ?

Instead we have : Zel Miller, McCain, Giuliani, Arnie, Bloomberg and Pataki. And Zel Miller is the most conservative guy in that list. :wink: The others are all for stronger gun-control. Bloomberg was a Democrat till 2001, when he switched sides to improve his odds of getting voted (the Dem. field was too crowded). Arnie and Guiliani are pro-choice. Pataki calls himself a pro-choicer, though his voting record suggests otherwise. McCain is against tax-cutting, and for increased welfare spending (and is probably making the worst deal ever - hoping for a shot at 2008).

wasteofo2

Aug31-04, 12:35 AM

You seriously need to get familiar with the Supreme Court decision in Marsh v. Chambers:

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=us&vol=463&invol=783

Bwahahahaha!!!!
I'll get over what some court said, I still think it's wrong, I still think it's arrogant, I still think it's insulting to the billions of people who disagree with them about which religion is true, I think it's especially insulting towards Muslims when they have a muslim woman come on and speak to open up the night, essentially exploiting her and then just shoving it in her face by closing with a christian prayer.

Courts decided Jim Crowe laws were fine for a long time too, until just a few decades ago, inter-racial marriages were still being rulled illegal, courts aren't the ultimate morality compass by any means.

The reason religion has flourished so much in the USA is because it's generally removed from politics. Sure, you know what religion each candidate is, but the way the Republicans are using religion is dangerous. One great way to get people to hate you is to declare "I'm right, you're wrong, and I'm more moral than you". Anyone who believes in a certain religion is by default saying that their religion is the best/the most true etc., but when a whole party becomes soaked with the same type of radicals calling themselves christians the way Republicans have, they're not going to attract many voters of other faiths.

JohnDubYa

Aug31-04, 01:06 AM

I'll get over what some court said, I still think it's wrong, I still think it's arrogant, I still think it's insulting to the billions of people who disagree with them about which religion is true, I think it's especially insulting towards Muslims when they have a muslim woman come on and speak to open up the night, essentially exploiting her and then just shoving it in her face by closing with a christian prayer.

Oh, I see. Muslim countries adopt the Koran as their standard of law, but WE are the bad guys because we closed our convention with a Christian prayer.

This is the REPUBLICAN convention, not a Legislative meeting. They can do whatever they wish in regards to prayer.

As for Marsh v. Chambers, I guess this proves that not everything will be ruled according to your desires. Believe me, we take it on the chin from the Supreme Court too. Sucks, doesn't it?

The reasoning of the court is stated in Marsh v. Chambers and I think it is quite sound. (Feel free to disagree.) They are essentially saying that long-standing historical traditions sometimes override the petty demands of malcontents.

Every time Conservatives disagree with a Court decision the Left screams "It's the law of the land! It's the law of the land! So take it up with the Supreme Court if you don't like their decision.

JohnDubYa

Aug31-04, 01:08 AM

Arnie speaks wherever he wants to.

wasteofo2

Aug31-04, 01:24 AM

Oh, I see. Muslim countries adopt the Koran as their standard of law, but WE are the bad guys because we closed our convention with a Christian prayer.

is the REPUBLICAN convention, not a Legislative meeting. They can do whatever they wish in regards to prayer.

As for Marsh v. Chambers, I guess this proves that This not everything will be ruled according to your desires. Believe me, we take it on the chin from the Supreme Court too. Sucks, doesn't it?

The reasoning of the court is stated in Marsh v. Chambers and I think it is quite sound. (Feel free to disagree.) They are essentially saying that long-standing historical traditions sometimes override the petty demands of malcontents.

Every time Conservatives disagree with a Court decision the Left screams "It's the law of the land! It's the law of the land! So take it up with the Supreme Court if you don't like their decision.

Pardon my high standards, but I feel that perhaps we shouldn't look at countries like Saudi Arabia and Syria, and say that because we're not theocracies like them that anything else we do in regards to religion+government is alright. I hold Republicans to a higher standard than the Saudi royal family, perhaps that's an unreasonable standard...

They certainly proved they can do whatever they want in regards to prayer, and it's made me pissed off at them. Are they TRYING to alienate everyone who isn't a Christian that thinks dogma goes great with government?

Of course not everything will be ruled according to my desires, otherwise we'd have Gore as a president today. When the supreme court rules in a way Republicans don't want, it seems that it's largely things like "Sorry, racial segregation is illegal", or "Nope, you can't indefinately detain prisoners without any acess to lawyers nor any just cause" etc. Sorry if that pisses you off...

JohnDubYa

Aug31-04, 02:31 AM

Pardon my high standards, but I feel that perhaps we shouldn't look at countries like Saudi Arabia and Syria, and say that because we're not theocracies like them that anything else we do in regards to religion+government is alright. I hold Republicans to a higher standard than the Saudi royal family, perhaps that's an unreasonable standard...

You specifically mentioned Muslims. Given the heavy hand that religion plays in Muslim countries, I don't think Muslims have a lot to complain about a Christian prayer being spoken at a political convention.

Are they TRYING to alienate everyone who isn't a Christian that thinks dogma goes great with government?

Muslims don't vote Republican. Christians do. The Republicans are playing to their audience. Democrats do the same.

When the supreme court rules in a way Republicans don't want, it seems that it's largely things like "Sorry, racial segregation is illegal"...

Oh, cut the crap! Racial segregation predominated in the largely Democrat South.

Gokul43201

Aug31-04, 04:05 AM

You specifically mentioned Muslims. Given the heavy hand that religion plays in Muslim countries, I don't think Muslims have a lot to complain about a Christian prayer being spoken at a political convention.

So, if John Smith converted to Islam tomorrow, he should thank the Republican party that they're giving him a better deal than what...the Lebanese Govt. ?

Muslims don't vote Republican. Christians do. The Republicans are playing to their audience. Democrats do the same.

Fair enough. And that's really what's it's all about. But it's sending a scary-@$$ message to several moderates who are afraid that GW turns to the Bible, once too often, to help determine policy.

plover

Aug31-04, 06:46 AM

You specifically mentioned Muslims. Given the heavy hand that religion plays in Muslim countries, I don't think Muslims have a lot to complain about a Christian prayer being spoken at a political convention.
What do Muslim countries have to do with any of this? You make it sound like there are no Muslims born and raised in the U.S. Plus, countries with an explicitly Islamic government are just that: countries with an explicitly Islamic government - there's no reason to expect separation of church and state there, whereas in the U.S. it's a founding principle.

The idea that the U.S. is a "Christian nation" was explicitly rejected by the constitutional convention, and this rejection was reiterated in the Treaty of Tripoli as first enacted under Washington and Adams. And history's most eminent member of the Republican party, Lincoln, was also not a Christian in any meaningful sense. According to his wife: "Mr. Lincoln's maxim and philosophy were: 'What is to be, will be, and no prayers of ours can arrest the decree.' He never joined any Church. He was a religious man always, I think, but was not a technical Christian."
Muslims don't vote Republican. Christians do.
Nope, sorry. Until the current election, many U.S. Muslims did vote Republican. Many Muslim groups endorsed Bush in 2000. In January this year however, a poll of one of these groups, the Muslim Public Affairs Council, found that only 2% still supported Bush. (And can you blame them?)

Also, substantial numbers of U.S. Christians can't stand the current Republican party, and view its actions as a betrayal of Christian principles.

Oh, and libertarian-type Republicans are often quite fervent atheists...
The Republicans are playing to their audience. Democrats do the same.
Panders, all...
Oh, cut the crap! Racial segregation predominated in the largely Democrat South.
Tsk. The views of early to mid 20th century Southern Democrats bear little resemblance to those of the current Democratic party. They simply opposed the Republican party as a legacy of the Civil War. Political parties are not historically static animals. But hey, Lincoln's Republican party was one I could have supported...

russ_watters

Aug31-04, 07:48 AM

Reality check, wasteofo2: http://chaplain.house.gov/histInfo.html

kat

Aug31-04, 10:38 AM

What was in the prayer that would be offensive to muslims? or even Jews? Did they mention Jesus Christ or just God? Otherwise the only people it would offend are atheist or agnostics...

amp

Aug31-04, 10:44 AM

Maybe they are just trying to get back ground that they lost when Kerry said '... I hope we're on God's side as opposed to Bush saying God's on our side (presumtively speaking for God)

kat

Aug31-04, 10:50 AM

Prometheus

Aug31-04, 10:52 AM

The Republican National Convention just ended with a congressman from Georgia/Evangelist leading a large group prayer about the glory of god and all that crap
Would you offhand have an Internet citing of the text of this. Else, can you mention some of the highlights that you might remember?

phatmonky

Aug31-04, 11:29 AM

What was in the prayer that would be offensive to muslims? or even Jews? Did they mention Jesus Christ or just God? Otherwise the only people it would offend are atheist or agnostics...

And even then, only atheists and agnostics that are ignorant that most (by up to 99% from what i've read) people on earth believe in some sort of higher power. They would then have to expect that 99% to bend over for the 1%. And at that point, I don't care what they want.

Prometheus

Aug31-04, 12:03 PM

most (by up to 99% from what i've read) people on earth believe in some sort of higher power.
I think that it is that time in life when you need glasses. This is a ridiculous number.

They would then have to expect that 99% to bend over for the 1%. And at that point, I don't care what they want.
Your argument is based on the ridiculous number that you cited. You obviously don't care what anyone wants but yourself.

phatmonky

Aug31-04, 01:02 PM

I think that it is that time in life when you need glasses. This is a ridiculous number.

Your argument is based on the ridiculous number that you cited. You obviously don't care what anyone wants but yourself.

Do you ever try to respond to me with anything to disprove what I've posted.I've read 99%. Prove I didn't. Just because it's a number larger than you expected doesn't make it ridiculous. It makes you ignorant. My FIRST google search pulled this:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/polls/wat/archive/wat042400.htm

Overall, the center's survey of surveys confirms that America truly is one nation, under God—or at least Americans say it is. In survey after survey, overwhelming majorities say they believe in God. More than nine in 10 Americans—95 percent—told ABC News polltakers that they believe in God. A Gallup Organization survey for CNN and USA Today last December found much the same thing: Nearly nine in 10—86 percent—said they believed in God, while another 8 percent said they believe in some form of "Universal spirit or higher power."

95% then! OKay! That leaves 5% that are atheist in the USA alone. (do you really want to pull numbers for India, China, or the middle east? Africa, sOuth america. You think they believe in NO higher power?! )
So my statement then says, I don't care if 5% of the population is offended by something so benign as a prayer.

Entropy

Aug31-04, 01:47 PM

How do they not have respect for the constitution? Its there convention and they can do whatever they want there.

Entropy

Aug31-04, 01:48 PM

most (by up to 99% from what i've read) people on earth believe in some sort of higher power.

Actually its 95%. But thats still a lot!

Gokul43201

Aug31-04, 01:49 PM

Entropy

Aug31-04, 01:57 PM

Perhaps 95% believe in a higher power, but that's irrelevant to this discussion. Do 95% of the people believe that a prayer to God (asking for what...only Waste knows) is appropriate in a National Political Convention ? That's a more relevant question.

How do they not have respect for the constitution? Its there convention and they can do whatever they want there.

Is the republican national convention a public or private event? Is it funded by republicans or by the federal government?

phatmonky

Aug31-04, 02:16 PM

Dagenais

Aug31-04, 03:00 PM

It's how the religious nutjobs have a stranglehold on the party

The thing about the US is Freedom of Religion. It doesn't say anything in the constitution that says the religious can't be leaders in the Republican party.

it's how they have no respect for the environment

It's not just the Republicans that don't care about the enviroment. Don't throw every single problem with your Country on them.

Oh, I see. Muslim countries adopt the Koran as their standard of law, but WE are the bad guys because we closed our convention with a Christian prayer.

It's actually not that insulting to the Muslim either, since they've been known to include parts of the Christian bible in their teachings. I read in the book that it was the Old Testament?

Afterall, Muslims do believe in a Jesus Christ, just as a prophet.

Are they TRYING to alienate everyone who isn't a Christian that thinks dogma goes great with government?

America is country full of Christians, look at the Pledge of Alligence. Look at what's on your money, "In God We Trust."

What was in the prayer that would be offensive to muslims? or even Jews? Did they mention Jesus Christ or just God? Otherwise the only people it would offend are atheist or agnostics...

There was debate about this recently. The phrase, "Under God" was deemed as disrespectful. One of the biggest arguments was that it didn't say anything about which God.

russ_watters

Aug31-04, 03:34 PM

Is the republican national convention a public or private event? Is it funded by republicans or by the federal government? Though the campaigns are sometimes funded by the government (I think Kerry's is), the parties themselves are not and the conventions are not government functions.

Gza

Aug31-04, 03:35 PM

Prometheus

Aug31-04, 03:46 PM

Do you ever try to respond to me with anything to disprove what I've posted.I've read 99%. Prove I didn't. Just because it's a number larger than you expected doesn't make it ridiculous. It makes you ignorant. My FIRST google search pulled this:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/polls/wat/archive/wat042400.htm

"Prove I didn't." What a joke. As evidence, you pull up an irrelevant site. Looks to me like you are ignorant if you believe this number.

most (by up to 99% from what i've read) people on earth believe in some sort of higher power.

95% then! OKay! That leaves 5% that are atheist in the USA alone. (do you really want to pull numbers for India, China, or the middle east? Africa, sOuth america. You think they believe in NO higher power?! )

Are you really assuming that if a web site indicates that 95% of Americans believe in a "higher power", that you should be able to extrapolate that number to the entire earth? Do you really think that 95% or more of Chinese believe in a higher power, whatever that means to you?

By the way, what do you mean by a "higher power"? Do you mean some type of god? That would surely push China way off the 99% mark.

You really should be more critical in your acceptance of things that you read.

phatmonky

Aug31-04, 03:54 PM

1>"Prove I didn't." What a joke. As evidence, you pull up an irrelevant site. Looks to me like you are ignorant if you believe this number.

2>Are you really assuming that if a web site indicates that 95% of Americans believe in a "higher power", that you should be able to extrapolate that number to the entire earth? Do you really think that 95% or more of Chinese believe in a higher power, whatever that means to you?

By the way, what do you mean by a "higher power"? Do you mean some type of god? That would surely push China way off the 99% mark.

You really should be more critical in your acceptance of things that you read.

You are the one who chose to argue about what I've read or not read. :rolleyes:

I said 'higher power' for a reason, not god.

kat

Aug31-04, 03:57 PM

Hmmm. Get a bunch of Republicans together in a room to pray. I doubt you'll be hearing many cries of "Allah Akbar." Their prayer is obviously in a Christian context. Continually supporting the action by saying they never explicitly mentioned which God they pray to, therefore it is non-offensive to non-believers, is naive to say the least.

So...what about when the Democrats got together in the room to pray at their convention? Do you think they were hearing many cries of "allah akbar"? I mean they wouldn't even let Al Jazeera post their sign up...

Conventions aren't set up to represent the entire population, they represent their own political parties. More pertinent to rather they should be holding prayer at the end of their convention might be what % of members of their political party are religious. I'm betting that the fact that the Democratic Party held prayer at their convention should be alienating more party members then the Republican party LOL.

SO WHY IS THIS THREAD ONLY CONDEMNING REPUBLICANS? :yuck:

Prometheus

Aug31-04, 04:26 PM

I said 'higher power' for a reason, not god.
Thanks. I suppose that I should understand what this means to you now. I am sure that it means the same to 99% of the other people on the earth.

phatmonky

Aug31-04, 04:51 PM

Thanks. I suppose that I should understand what this means to you now. I am sure that it means the same to 99% of the other people on the earth.
I'm not continuing this. You've successfully derailed this thread. Good job.

Let's get back on-topic.

JohnDubYa

Aug31-04, 06:02 PM

wasteofo2

Aug31-04, 09:03 PM

BTW Wasteofo2- I'm glad to see you're so angry at a political party that would dare hold a prayer during their convention. I'm assuming that you would not want to vote for the nominee of such a party?

So, if you could vote would you be planning to vote for Nader?

Or are you going to change your mind when I tell you about The Rev. John B. Ardis, the Catholic priest whom Senator John F. Kerry has chosen to give the benediction at tonight's closing session of the convention (http://www.boston.com/news/politics/conventions/articles/2004/07/29/abortion_debate_wont_keep_priest_from_national_sta ge_1091078454/)

I'll give it to you, Kerry's a bastard.

But I wouldn't vote for Nader after that whore took money from anti-gay republican groups so that he could leech votes off of Kerry. The choices for president are for different variety of bastards...

About the 95% of people believing in god, I actually saw a special on the discovery channel about Religion, and they said that there were around 1 billion Atheists in the world, with over 3/4 of them in Europe and Asia. America's definately more religious than Eurasia.

How do they not have respect for the constitution? Its there convention and they can do whatever they want there.
That's just a ridiculous argument, they shouldn't be able to subvert the constitution/laws just because it's their convention. Would you be alright with them smoking pot in MSG because it's their convention?

plover

Aug31-04, 09:52 PM

That's just a ridiculous argument, they shouldn't be able to subvert the constitution/laws just because it's their convention. Would you be alright with them smoking pot in MSG because it's their convention?
While I often find the Republicans' playing of the religion card to bludgeon their opponents (to mix a metaphor) appalling, I'm not sure a closing prayer at their convention (at least one that isn't calling for God to smite the heathen Democrats and scourge them from the Earth) can be said to do that. The Democrats had closing prayers at their convention too.

Also, the law just doesn't back you up on this one. The Republican party as such is not (thankfully) an arm of the U.S. government (much though they'd like to be :wink:). The people there are not acting as government officials, but as candidates and party members, i.e. private citizens assembled for the meeting of a private organization, and as such they may worship as they please. Your drug comparison doesn't work, as pot (whether or not it should be) is illegal in or out of MSG, whereas prayer services are not.

I'm not saying there are no grounds on which such ceremonial observances, even very neutral ones, might be objected to, but U.S. law is not currently one of them.

On the other hand, if it was something about the particular form or content of the prayer that you found so incensing, rather than the simple fact that the event happened, you have not made this clear.

phatmonky

Aug31-04, 10:17 PM

About the 95% of people believing in god, I actually saw a special on the discovery channel about Religion, and they said that there were around 1 billion Atheists in the world, with over 3/4 of them in Europe and Asia. America's definately more religious than Eurasia.
?

So be it.....
Your thread, you brought it back to this.....

http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html
http://www.agreeley.com/articles/hardcore.html

"Secular/Nonreligious/Agnostic/Atheist: 850 million"

1 Billion for atheists alone? Oh how things get screwed in your head when you don't have links.

"This is a highly disparate group and not a single religion. Although atheists are a small subset of this grouping, this category is not synonymous with atheism. Atheists actually make up less than one-tenth of one percent of the population in many countries where large numbers claim no religious preference, such as the United States (7.5% nonreligious) and Australia (15% nonreligious). "

oh, you were thinking of all NONRELGIOUS people, not just atheists.

and for the atheists....?
"Estimates for atheism alone range from 200 to 240 million"

240 million of 6 billion. And then there's the fact that:

"But at this point, it is impossible to accurately determine how many of those classified as atheists or nonreligious during Communist-era USSR and by the current Chinese government are actually atheists according to their personal beliefs, and how many are unregistered religious adherents or participants in less-organized traditional systems that are oriented around ancestors, animism, shamanism, etc. Many people are unaware, for instance, that China has one of the largest, most active Christian communities in the world, and that in many former Soviet nations religions such as shamanism, Islam and Russian Orthodoxy remained even while official government reports announced the elimination of religion in these regions. "

Prometheus

Aug31-04, 10:49 PM

And then there's the fact that:

"But at this point, it is impossible to accurately determine how many of those classified as atheists or nonreligious during Communist-era USSR and by the current Chinese government are actually atheists according to their personal beliefs, and how many are unregistered religious adherents or participants in less-organized traditional systems that are oriented around ancestors, animism, shamanism, etc. Many people are unaware, for instance, that China has one of the largest, most active Christian communities in the world
Shall we all assume that your statement about the Christian population in China should be construed to mean large in percentage of the population? Is it, in actuality, anywhere in the vicinity of the 99% mark?

And then there's the fact that:

"But at this point, it is impossible to accurately determine how many of those classified as religious are in fact not religious.

Gza

Sep1-04, 01:05 AM

Each person is free to substitute their own personal God at every mention of His name.

This entire argument is petty.

Did you leave the "r" out of petty? Damn i'm witty :laughing: .

phatmonky

Sep1-04, 06:34 AM

Shall we all assume that your statement about the Christian population in China should be construed to mean large in percentage of the population? Is it, in actuality, anywhere in the vicinity of the 99% mark?

And then there's the fact that:

"But at this point, it is impossible to accurately determine how many of those classified as religious are in fact not religious.

Not my statement. Not meant to be construed anyway. You can assume what you'd like. The statement is just a quote.

Gokul43201

Sep1-04, 09:18 AM

All of this above argument assumes that a Christian (at least, and in fact, any God believer) would think it's okay to have praying at a National Convention. (DNC or RNC)

I don't know about the religious make-up of WasteofO2, but he was outraged by the incident, and he's not your tree-hugging, birkenstock-wearing, Kerry-loving liberal. Could there be more like him ? Is it wise to risk disenfranchising this minority ?

russ_watters

Sep1-04, 12:53 PM

That's just a ridiculous argument, they shouldn't be able to subvert the constitution/laws just because it's their convention. Would you be alright with them smoking pot in MSG because it's their convention? I thought we made it abundantly clear that the constitution/laws don't have anything to say about this issue - and in the closest issue they could say something about (prayer in Congress), they say its ok.I don't know about the religious make-up of WasteofO2, but he was outraged by the incident, and he's not your tree-hugging, birkenstock-wearing, Kerry-loving liberal. Could there be more like him ? Is it wise to risk disenfranchising this minority ? Quite frankly, wasteofo2 and anyone else who became disenfranchised over this hasn't been paying enough attention. This is a knee-jerk reaction to something he didn't know enough about. Especially considering that both conventions had prayer in them.

edit: to his credit, wasteofo2 did concede on the first page he was unaware of some of these facts.

Artman

Sep1-04, 01:03 PM

There should be more concern if they were NOT allowed to pray at the close of their convention.

Dagenais

Sep1-04, 07:26 PM

Is it wise to risk disenfranchising this minority ?

If it gurantees them the vote of the majority.

plover

Sep1-04, 07:40 PM

All of this above argument assumes that a Christian (at least, and in fact, any God believer) would think it's okay to have praying at a National Convention. (DNC or RNC)
My comment is not intended imply that it is ok in any absolute sense. I'm simply pointing out what the law has to say, and inviting comment on other grounds.

I would also note that on one night the Democratic convention prayer was given by an imam.
he's not your tree-hugging, birkenstock-wearing, Kerry-loving liberal.
Hey waste, are you gonna put up with this kind of slander?? :biggrin:
Could there be more like him ? Is it wise to risk disenfranchising this minority ?
Just to be pedantic, I'll note that 'disenfranchisement' is the denial of voting of rights, which (except arguably for age reasons) is not the case here. :wink:

While some secular types just look on such ceremonies indulgently as a foible of their religious compatriots, others do feel a sense of alienation that their presence is not acknowledged. Perhaps for a multi-day affair like a convention, an inclusively ecumenical solution would be to end one day with poetry of a non-religious character.

JohnDubYa

Sep2-04, 01:24 AM

Anything but poetry!

plover

Sep2-04, 01:46 AM

Anything but poetry!
Hey, the Republicans are already doing show tunes during the convention. That's pretty much past the point of no return...

JohnDubYa

Sep2-04, 03:24 AM

Well, I prefer show tunes over The Macarena. Remember The Macarena?

plover

Sep2-04, 09:51 AM

Well, I prefer show tunes over The Macarena. Remember The Macarena?
Fortunately, that was an aberration I mostly missed. You're not saying they used it at the 2000 Republican convention, are you? :surprised

JohnDubYa

Sep2-04, 08:58 PM

Was it Tipper Gore that led The Macarena, or Al? I can't remember.

plover

Sep2-04, 10:33 PM

Was it Tipper Gore that led The Macarena, or Al? I can't remember.
Must have been Tipper -- she's always been a pod person. Al just used to play one on TV... :wink:

presentghost

Sep9-04, 02:55 PM

WasteofO2, you need to research the history of the United States. The whole foundation for our forefathers coming here was to escape religious persecution. In fact, as it is written in the First Amendment, the people at the GOP Convention have the right, protected by said document, to have a prayer. The First Amendment doesn't say anyone, a person of government, school, or wherever, can not pray. It is actually in the Constitution for people like you who say someone can't, or "how dare they". To the government as a whole, it says they can't make any laws prohibiting religion or creating only one throughout the land such as is done in the Middle East and elsewhere. In other words there can be no laws either way even touching the subject. There is no such language as "Separation of Church and State". In fact this nation's foundation is in religion. People have taken the "establishment of religion" as meaning you can't pray or have religious language in schools, courts, and governments. It is just the opposite. The First Amendment says you can't "prohibit the free exercise thereof". You can't have it more obvious than that. So when a court comes down and says you can't pray in school or can't have the Ten Commandments written in stone in court, they are violating the First Amendment. This is where courts are legislating from the bench instead of interpeting the language.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof

So, you have the right to worship and pray anyway you like or even not at all. But they also have the right to pray anyway they like. You can write the GOP and ask them to have a jewish and islamic prayer next time or....gee....you have the right to switch channels. Actually I feel sorry for you that of all things to complain about, you choose the benediction. Compare that with people who were tortured and executed because they were not Catholic during the Spanish Inquisition or who were arrested in England in the 1600's or in Russia the last century or the millions Jews gassed and tortured during Hitler's reign and the fight that Isreal has had to put up just to live. YOU saw a prayer on TV. :surprised

enigma

Sep9-04, 04:19 PM

Are you really assuming that if a web site indicates that 95% of Americans believe in a "higher power", that you should be able to extrapolate that number to the entire earth? Do you really think that 95% or more of Chinese believe in a higher power, whatever that means to you?

Research I did several years ago (so unfortunately, I don't have a link) showed that ~1.5-2% of the US population are atheists, an additional ~2-3% are agnostic.

Approximately 14%, including the two categories above, considered themselves "non-religious". That could mean that they were atheist/agnostic but didn't feel comfortable "outing" themselves, or it could mean that they considered themselves spiritual but not adherant to a specific faith (or something else entirely).

Those numbers could easily be out of date.