Benjamin Schulz
Aug31-04, 04:55 AM
<jabberwocky><div class="vbmenu_control"><a href="jabberwocky:;" onClick="newWindow=window.open('','usenetCode','toolbar=no, location=no,scrollbars=yes,resizable=yes,status=no ,width=650,height=400'); newWindow.document.write('<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Usenet ASCII</TITLE></HEAD><BODY topmargin=0 leftmargin=0 BGCOLOR=#F1F1F1><table border=0 width=625><td bgcolor=midnightblue><font color=#F1F1F1>This Usenet message\'s original ASCII form: </font></td></tr><tr><td width=449><br><br><font face=courier><UL><PRE>\nI have an advanced question regarding some publications on the\nmeasurement process which show up a connection to a special version of\nquantum gravity.\n\nHowever since the post covers a wide area of physics it is therefore a\nlittle bit long.\n\nThe questions regarding quantum gravity are at the end of the post.\n\nAt First there\'s an article in "Annalen der Physik" 2003 which was\naccepted by F.W.Hehl concerned with the basics of quantum physics and\ndenying the role of measurement process responsible for quantum behaviour.\n\nThe article must be downloaded from Whiley since it is not in arxiv.\n\n> http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-bin/abstract/104544152/ABSTRACT\n\nThe autors want to revitalize the Nelson stochstic quantisation,\nconsidering a brownian movement as a trajectory for quantum particles.\nThe authors show, that the fluctuations coming out of the vacuum due to\nthe heisenberg uncertainty principle are responsible for the diffusion\nprocess that leads to the Schroedinger Equation. In this model they\nchange the Energy of a particle for a time interval Delta T *Delta\nE>=hbar/2 and restore it afterwards.\nThe authors show that this process leads to nonlocality and derive the\nmany particle schroedinger equation from it. At the end, after\ndiscussing some things like the Aharonov Bohm effect the authors remark\nthat when the corespondence principle holds, some many particle systems\nexist which violate in fact the axioms of standard quantum mechanics.\nThey write:\n\n>This calls alternative foundations of quantum mechanics into question.\n\nHowever, the authors must postulate, that charged point masses do not\nradiate when the probabillity is not time dependent.\nI asked the author of the article on this. He wrote back to me, that\nthis is also commonly seen in Plasmas, where charged masses display a\nbrownian movement and loose the same energy by radiation which they\nabsorb so that on the average, radiation is zero.\n\nA description of the wavefunction collapse in spirit of the Nelson model\ncan be found here:\n\nhttp://www.arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/9912015\n\nThe particle Spin was introduced by Dankel to stochastic mechanics\nleading to a correct quantisation:\n\nDankel,Jr Arch.Ration Mech. Anal, vol 37 pp 192\n\nThe correct many particle equation of the paper in the Annalen\nreproduces the same behaviour one observes in a quantum optics\nentanglement experiment.\nMoreover, the nonlocality in the sense of the Annalen paper which\nfollows from their stochastic mechanics is with regards to all degrees\nof freedom. This is exactly what has been confirmed with recent neutron\ninterferometry experiments:\n\n> http://www.iop.org/EJ/abstract/1464-4266/6/3/002\n\nand was also pointed out earlier in connection with Nelsons theory\n\n> http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6TVM-46V5KCC-96&_coverDate=05%2F28%2F1984&_alid=178174606&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_qd=1&_cdi=5538&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000011218&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=134689&md5=f75a1e0f7ab6c96b57\n93e20cc5b0e41d\n\n\n\nNow my main point is:\n\n\nAll the methods in the Annalen Paper can be used within the framework of\nsemiriemannian manifolds in the general relativity. Prior studies showed\nthat one can succsessfull applie the Nelson framework on manifolds\n\n> http://romagtc.roma1.infn.it/stomec.html#3\n\nIn 1970, there were some strange papers published.\n\nThere exists a Mr. Jean Pierre Caubet. He has written a book named "le\nmouvement brownien relativiste". This is based on publications in\nComptes Rendus which were accepted by L. De Broglie (as I\'ve seen them).\nAn english overview of all this was given by him in\n\n>Lecture Notes in Mathematics 451 Probabilistic Methods in Differential\n>Equations, Springer,pp 113\n\nThere, he wants to show that when one assumes a relativistic diffusion\nin terms of special relativity, one can obtain a correct Klein Gordon\nequation and he then goes over to derive quantum electro dynamics\n(second quantisation).\n\nHowever Edward Nelson himself reviewed this contributions in a Bulletin\nof the AMS. Since Caubet only postulated his D\'alembertian in the\ndiffusion process which leads to his Klein Gordon equation, the\npublication can not be seriously taken into account. "The reviewer had\nhard to understand why Caubet replaces the Laplacian with a\nD\'Alembertian. It does not seem that such a stochastic process exists"\nNelson wrote.\n\nBut:\n\nThere exists now a new paper in the arxiv that solves this problem:\n\n> http://www.arxiv.org/abs/physics/0212036\n\nThe authors study diffusion in the framework of special relativity and\nindeed get a D\'Alembertian. The authors claim (and indeed they seem\ncorrect) that now one can construct a Klein Gordon equation with Nelsons\nstochastic mechanics.\n\nIn a further publication now they formulated the nelson stochastic in\nsuch a way that they can include gravity now:\n\n> http://www.arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/0407076\n\nThey write:\n\n>We discuss in this Chapter a series of theoretical developments which motivate the introduction of a quantum evolution equation for which the eikonal approximation results in the geodesics of a four dimensional manifold. This geodesic motion can be put i\nnto correspondence with general relativity.\n>\n>In order to understand the possible origin of the structure of this equation, we appeal to the approach of Nelson in constructing a Schroedinger equation from the properties of Brownian motion. Extending the notion of Browninan motion to spacetime in a c\novariant way, we show that such an equation follows from correlations between spacetime dimensions in the stochastic process.\n>\n\nHowever, this paper has an interesting remark at the end:\n\n>We wish to thank F.W.Hehl for discussions at an early stage of this work\n\nF.W. Hehl is not only the editor who has accepted the Paper on\nStochastic mechanics in the "Annalen der Physik", he is also chairman of\nthe German association for general relativity.\n\n\n\nMy questions are now:\nSince I\'m a student who is gets now into graduate studies, it is\ndifficult for me to see if there are serious drawbacks in the papers.\nWhat do more educated physicists think of them?\nAre there some faults, what seems strange what is good in the methods\nused there?\n\nEspecially interesting are of course the paper in the Annalen der Physik\nand the one that goes towards quantum gravity. For me both seem to be\nquite interesting.\nHowever, if these two papers above are correct, one has to forget\nCopenhagen.\nBut not only that. The paper extending the stochstic mechanics to\ngeneral relativity needs no additional space time dimensions. If these\npapers are right it has some implications on Kaluza Klein and other\nGauge theories of gravity.\n\nSincerely\nBenjamin\n(I hope someone can answer that)\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n</UL></PRE></font></td></tr></table></BODY><HTML>');"> <IMG SRC=/images/buttons/ip.gif BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER ALT="View this Usenet post in original ASCII form"> View this Usenet post in original ASCII form </a></div><P></jabberwocky>I have an advanced question regarding some publications on the
measurement process which show up a connection to a special version of
quantum gravity.
However since the post covers a wide area of physics it is therefore a
little bit long.
The questions regarding quantum gravity are at the end of the post.
At First there's an article in "Annalen der Physik" 2003 which was
accepted by F.W.Hehl concerned with the basics of quantum physics and
denying the role of measurement process responsible for quantum behaviour.
The article must be downloaded from Whiley since it is not in arxiv.
> http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-bin/abstract/104544152/ABSTRACT
The autors want to revitalize the Nelson stochstic quantisation,
considering a brownian movement as a trajectory for quantum particles.
The authors show, that the fluctuations coming out of the vacuum due to
the heisenberg uncertainty principle are responsible for the diffusion
process that leads to the Schroedinger Equation. In this model they
change the Energy of a particle for a time interval \Delta T *\DeltaE>=\hbar/2 and restore it afterwards.
The authors show that this process leads to nonlocality and derive the
many particle schroedinger equation from it. At the end, after
discussing some things like the Aharonov Bohm effect the authors remark
that when the corespondence principle holds, some many particle systems
exist which violate in fact the axioms of standard quantum mechanics.
They write:
>This calls alternative foundations of quantum mechanics into question.
However, the authors must postulate, that charged point masses do not
radiate when the probabillity is not time dependent.
I asked the author of the article on this. He wrote back to me, that
this is also commonly seen in Plasmas, where charged masses display a
brownian movement and loose the same energy by radiation which they
absorb so that on the average, radiation is zero.
A description of the wavefunction collapse in spirit of the Nelson model
can be found here:
http://www.arxiv.org/abs/http://www.arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/9912015
The particle Spin was introduced by Dankel to stochastic mechanics
leading to a correct quantisation:
Dankel,Jr Arch.Ration Mech. Anal, vol 37 pp 192
The correct many particle equation of the paper in the Annalen
reproduces the same behaviour one observes in a quantum optics
entanglement experiment.
Moreover, the nonlocality in the sense of the Annalen paper which
follows from their stochastic mechanics is with regards to all degrees
of freedom. This is exactly what has been confirmed with recent neutron
interferometry experiments:
> http://www.iop.org/EJ/abstract/1464-4266/6/3/002
and was also pointed out earlier in connection with Nelsons theory
> http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6TVM-46V5KCC-96&_coverDate=05%2F28%2F1984&_alid=178174606&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_qd=1&_cdi=5538&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000011218&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=134689&md5=f75a1e0f7ab6c96b57
93e20cc5b0e41d
Now my main point is:
All the methods in the Annalen Paper can be used within the framework of
semiriemannian manifolds in the general relativity. Prior studies showed
that one can succsessfull applie the Nelson framework on manifolds
> http://romagtc.roma1.infn.it/stomec.html#3
In 1970, there were some strange papers published.
There exists a Mr. Jean Pierre Caubet. He has written a book named "le
mouvement brownien relativiste". This is based on publications in
Comptes Rendus which were accepted by L. De Broglie (as I've seen them).
An english overview of all this was given by him in
>Lecture Notes in Mathematics 451 Probabilistic Methods in Differential
>Equations, Springer,pp 113
There, he wants to show that when one assumes a relativistic diffusion
in terms of special relativity, one can obtain a correct Klein Gordon
equation and he then goes over to derive quantum electro dynamics
(second quantisation).
However Edward Nelson himself reviewed this contributions in a Bulletin
of the AMS. Since Caubet only postulated his D'alembertian in the
diffusion process which leads to his Klein Gordon equation, the
publication can not be seriously taken into account. "The reviewer had
hard to understand why Caubet replaces the Laplacian with a
D'Alembertian. It does not seem that such a stochastic process exists"
Nelson wrote.
But:
There exists now a new paper in the arxiv that solves this problem:
> http://www.arxiv.org/abs/http://www.arxiv.org/abs/physics/0212036
The authors study diffusion in the framework of special relativity and
indeed get a D'Alembertian. The authors claim (and indeed they seem
correct) that now one can construct a Klein Gordon equation with Nelsons
stochastic mechanics.
In a further publication now they formulated the nelson stochastic in
such a way that they can include gravity now:
> http://www.arxiv.org/abs/http://www.arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/0407076
They write:
>We discuss in this Chapter a series of theoretical developments which motivate the introduction of a quantum evolution equation for which the eikonal approximation results in the geodesics of a four dimensional manifold. This geodesic motion can be put i
nto correspondence with general relativity.
>
>In order to understand the possible origin of the structure of this equation, we appeal to the approach of Nelson in constructing a Schroedinger equation from the properties of Brownian motion. Extending the notion of Browninan motion to spacetime in a c
ovariant way, we show that such an equation follows from correlations between spacetime dimensions in the stochastic process.
>
However, this paper has an interesting remark at the end:
>We wish to thank F.W.Hehl for discussions at an early stage of this work
F.W. Hehl is not only the editor who has accepted the Paper on
Stochastic mechanics in the "Annalen der Physik", he is also chairman of
the German association for general relativity.
My questions are now:
Since I'm a student who is gets now into graduate studies, it is
difficult for me to see if there are serious drawbacks in the papers.
What do more educated physicists think of them?
Are there some faults, what seems strange what is good in the methods
used there?
Especially interesting are of course the paper in the Annalen der Physik
and the one that goes towards quantum gravity. For me both seem to be
quite interesting.
However, if these two papers above are correct, one has to forget
Copenhagen.
But not only that. The paper extending the stochstic mechanics to
general relativity needs no additional space time dimensions. If these
papers are right it has some implications on Kaluza Klein and other
Gauge theories of gravity.
Sincerely
Benjamin
(I hope someone can answer that)
measurement process which show up a connection to a special version of
quantum gravity.
However since the post covers a wide area of physics it is therefore a
little bit long.
The questions regarding quantum gravity are at the end of the post.
At First there's an article in "Annalen der Physik" 2003 which was
accepted by F.W.Hehl concerned with the basics of quantum physics and
denying the role of measurement process responsible for quantum behaviour.
The article must be downloaded from Whiley since it is not in arxiv.
> http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-bin/abstract/104544152/ABSTRACT
The autors want to revitalize the Nelson stochstic quantisation,
considering a brownian movement as a trajectory for quantum particles.
The authors show, that the fluctuations coming out of the vacuum due to
the heisenberg uncertainty principle are responsible for the diffusion
process that leads to the Schroedinger Equation. In this model they
change the Energy of a particle for a time interval \Delta T *\DeltaE>=\hbar/2 and restore it afterwards.
The authors show that this process leads to nonlocality and derive the
many particle schroedinger equation from it. At the end, after
discussing some things like the Aharonov Bohm effect the authors remark
that when the corespondence principle holds, some many particle systems
exist which violate in fact the axioms of standard quantum mechanics.
They write:
>This calls alternative foundations of quantum mechanics into question.
However, the authors must postulate, that charged point masses do not
radiate when the probabillity is not time dependent.
I asked the author of the article on this. He wrote back to me, that
this is also commonly seen in Plasmas, where charged masses display a
brownian movement and loose the same energy by radiation which they
absorb so that on the average, radiation is zero.
A description of the wavefunction collapse in spirit of the Nelson model
can be found here:
http://www.arxiv.org/abs/http://www.arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/9912015
The particle Spin was introduced by Dankel to stochastic mechanics
leading to a correct quantisation:
Dankel,Jr Arch.Ration Mech. Anal, vol 37 pp 192
The correct many particle equation of the paper in the Annalen
reproduces the same behaviour one observes in a quantum optics
entanglement experiment.
Moreover, the nonlocality in the sense of the Annalen paper which
follows from their stochastic mechanics is with regards to all degrees
of freedom. This is exactly what has been confirmed with recent neutron
interferometry experiments:
> http://www.iop.org/EJ/abstract/1464-4266/6/3/002
and was also pointed out earlier in connection with Nelsons theory
> http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6TVM-46V5KCC-96&_coverDate=05%2F28%2F1984&_alid=178174606&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_qd=1&_cdi=5538&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000011218&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=134689&md5=f75a1e0f7ab6c96b57
93e20cc5b0e41d
Now my main point is:
All the methods in the Annalen Paper can be used within the framework of
semiriemannian manifolds in the general relativity. Prior studies showed
that one can succsessfull applie the Nelson framework on manifolds
> http://romagtc.roma1.infn.it/stomec.html#3
In 1970, there were some strange papers published.
There exists a Mr. Jean Pierre Caubet. He has written a book named "le
mouvement brownien relativiste". This is based on publications in
Comptes Rendus which were accepted by L. De Broglie (as I've seen them).
An english overview of all this was given by him in
>Lecture Notes in Mathematics 451 Probabilistic Methods in Differential
>Equations, Springer,pp 113
There, he wants to show that when one assumes a relativistic diffusion
in terms of special relativity, one can obtain a correct Klein Gordon
equation and he then goes over to derive quantum electro dynamics
(second quantisation).
However Edward Nelson himself reviewed this contributions in a Bulletin
of the AMS. Since Caubet only postulated his D'alembertian in the
diffusion process which leads to his Klein Gordon equation, the
publication can not be seriously taken into account. "The reviewer had
hard to understand why Caubet replaces the Laplacian with a
D'Alembertian. It does not seem that such a stochastic process exists"
Nelson wrote.
But:
There exists now a new paper in the arxiv that solves this problem:
> http://www.arxiv.org/abs/http://www.arxiv.org/abs/physics/0212036
The authors study diffusion in the framework of special relativity and
indeed get a D'Alembertian. The authors claim (and indeed they seem
correct) that now one can construct a Klein Gordon equation with Nelsons
stochastic mechanics.
In a further publication now they formulated the nelson stochastic in
such a way that they can include gravity now:
> http://www.arxiv.org/abs/http://www.arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/0407076
They write:
>We discuss in this Chapter a series of theoretical developments which motivate the introduction of a quantum evolution equation for which the eikonal approximation results in the geodesics of a four dimensional manifold. This geodesic motion can be put i
nto correspondence with general relativity.
>
>In order to understand the possible origin of the structure of this equation, we appeal to the approach of Nelson in constructing a Schroedinger equation from the properties of Brownian motion. Extending the notion of Browninan motion to spacetime in a c
ovariant way, we show that such an equation follows from correlations between spacetime dimensions in the stochastic process.
>
However, this paper has an interesting remark at the end:
>We wish to thank F.W.Hehl for discussions at an early stage of this work
F.W. Hehl is not only the editor who has accepted the Paper on
Stochastic mechanics in the "Annalen der Physik", he is also chairman of
the German association for general relativity.
My questions are now:
Since I'm a student who is gets now into graduate studies, it is
difficult for me to see if there are serious drawbacks in the papers.
What do more educated physicists think of them?
Are there some faults, what seems strange what is good in the methods
used there?
Especially interesting are of course the paper in the Annalen der Physik
and the one that goes towards quantum gravity. For me both seem to be
quite interesting.
However, if these two papers above are correct, one has to forget
Copenhagen.
But not only that. The paper extending the stochstic mechanics to
general relativity needs no additional space time dimensions. If these
papers are right it has some implications on Kaluza Klein and other
Gauge theories of gravity.
Sincerely
Benjamin
(I hope someone can answer that)