View Full Version : Rape by deception... huh?
This story made me cringe: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-10717186
An Arab man convicted in Israel of rape because he pretended he was a Jew when he had consensual sex with a Jewish woman has called the verdict racist.
Sabbar Kashur, 30, was found guilty of "rape by deception" by the Israeli court and sentenced to 18 months in jail.
According to the complaint filed by the woman, the two met in a Jerusalem street in 2008 and had sex that day.
When she discovered he was not Jewish, but an Arab, she went to the police.
Kashur was arrested and charged with rape and indecent assault, but the charges were later replaced by a different charge of "rape by deception".
An Israeli response: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3O0aRE6fcaE
What are you thoughts? I find this verdict ridiculous. According to the woman in the video, if I get in bed with someone after telling them I own a Ferrari (which I don't), I've potentially committed rape. Are there similar cases in the West?
Pythagorean
Jul21-10, 11:53 PM
Statutory rape is the only example of consensual rape I can think of in the west.
Things are different in the Middle East. At least the Israelis don't condone murder of the victims.
ABU QASH, West Bank — Raped by her brothers and impregnated, Rofayda Qaoud refused to commit suicide, her mother recalls, even after she bought the 17-year-old a razor with which to slit her wrists.
So Amira Abu Hanhan Qaoud says she did what she believes any good Palestinian parent would: restored her family's "honor" through murder.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2001793273_honorkilling17.html
RAMALLAH, West Bank -- A new report presents an alarming picture of the abuse of women in the Palestinian territories, with police, courts, and government agencies failing to treat violence such as rape and beatings as crimes.
Human Rights Watch cited practices such as rape victims being forced to marry assailants, and light sentences for men who kill female relatives suspected of adultery. In a report released Tuesday , the rights group said families, tribal leaders and authorities, backed by tradition and discriminatory laws, often sacrifice victims' interests for "family honor."
And the problem is getting worse with growing poverty and lawlessness in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, the New York-based group said.
http://www.boston.com/news/world/middleeast/articles/2006/11/07/group_says_palestinian_women_victims_of_societal_v iolence/
I don't think we, in the West, can sit back and judge. Or can we?
I don't agree with the verdict, it's political, but I am more apalled by the atrocities against women.
Office_Shredder
Jul22-10, 12:14 AM
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/02/29/politics/uwire/main3894875.shtml
California and Tennessee already have "rape by fraud" legislation..
This is not unheard of in America, though I don't know to what extent those laws reach
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/02/29/politics/uwire/main3894875.shtml
This is not unheard of in America, though I don't know to what extent those laws reachInteresting OS. I can't say that I can agree to a law that allows a woman to claim rape when she finds out that the guy she agreed to have sex with isn't rich. Doesn't that make her guilty of being a gold digging you know what? When do we start holding people responsible for their actions?
Things are different in the Middle East. At least the Israelis don't condone murder of the victims.
I don't think we, in the West, can sit back and judge. Or can we?
I don't agree with the verdict, it's political, but I am more apalled by the atrocities against women.
You are bringing up different issue that is irrelevant to the OP case. From the OP source:
There is a precedent in Israel for criminal charges being brought in such cases.
One man who told women he slept with he was a neurosurgeon in order to impress them was convicted of fraud.
A lawyer with the Public Defenders' Office said the court had gone too far.
"The test the court used is problematic," said Elkana Laist.
"Every time a man tells a woman he loves her, based on which she sleeps with him, he could be convicted of rape."
Kashur's lawyers say he will appeal against the sentence.
Around 20% of Israel's population are of Arab descent.
This might not be not related to racism.
zomgwtf
Jul22-10, 12:42 AM
This is definitely not unheard of. If a girl tells me she will only have sex with muslim men and I say great I'm muslim! Then I am definitly without a doubt in my mind raping her by my deception. I'm pretty sure these laws exist in the western world too...
I fail to see AT ALL how this scenario can automatically be pressumed racially motivated. Aka racist.
Now obviously simple-minded people on these forums are going to jump the gun and start making rediculous claims about how this and that could possibly happen and that means the law is bogus. They of course have to prove that there is precedent for this and show that the provisions under the given law protect such behaviour.
Yeah, it looks ugly.
But then consider, and this is a point no one does, she could have claimed it was not consensual yet she didn't. So at least she's honest about her xenophobia.
They are messed up.
Yep.
Don't read their news. Just let them kill each other.
cesiumfrog
Jul22-10, 03:16 AM
I don't think we, in the West, can sit back and judge. Or can we?
If you're in the US then you're pretty much responsible for the ongoing excess power of the Israeli government. So aside from what you seem to be hinting at, yes you should be judging this. (It's an interesting concept, whether one should be prosecuted for arbitrary untruthfulness in a relationship, but it seems likely that a different issue is at play in this case.)
If a girl tells me she will only have sex with muslim men and I say great I'm muslim! Then I am definitly without a doubt in my mind raping her by my deception. I'm pretty sure these laws exist in the western world too...
You would be guilty of fraud. (Though from the BBC it sounds like she mistakenly presumed from the sound of his name, rather than that he deliberately misrepresented himself.)
She would be guilty of discrimination on an unlawful basis. Surely it isn't kosher, when examining whether a person is a suitable partner, for their race (or even religion) to transparently be the sole deciding factor. If the offer of sex had been provable in writing, surely it would be tortuous if he were denied on those grounds alone. (It doesn't seem like she were unsatisfied with his cultural personality nor preconcerned with religious vows and ceremony.)
But he is certainly innocent of violently forcing sex upon her. To classify it rape devalues that word. (E.g., How much has this newstory changed your attitude to "rape-victims" in that region?)
arildno
Jul22-10, 03:49 AM
There was a time when criminalization of seduction of adults actually made some sense:
a) In a strongly discriminatory society, where a woman was totally dependent upon a man for financial support, and her only hope in life was to find a decent enough husband, coupled with b) a societal idea that a woman once "used" was maritally useless, in such a situation, criminalization of seduction could be regarded as a rather pathetic attempt to "protect" women.*
(An unpathetic, and much better, alternative would be to dismantle the discriminatory ideals in that society).
People will lie and cheat in order to get into each other's bed, they will even change their underwear more often in order to make a good impression on a desired sex partner.
*(Note that the discriminatory ideals of past times placed women in general in roughly the same sort of dependency relation to males as, for example, a patient (in particular psychiatric cases) will stand in relation to his/her doctor. And such relations are, indeed, still proscribed, and rightly so)
criminalization of seduction could be regarded as a rather pathetic attempt to "protect" women.
Normally, the word "pathetic" has a strong negative connotation to it. You're not seriously intending that, are you? :confused:
Hypothetically speaking, can I have an ex-girlfriend thrown in jail because she told me that she was a "nice person"? :devil:
I agree that this makes a mockery of the term rape. Sleeping with someone the same day that you meet them clearly shows that she isn't very discriminating. She met a guy with a Jewish nickname, assumed that he was Jewish and slept with him. It doesn't really seem as though she took the time to really get to know him. As noted in the original article, what is to stop someone from claiming rape in this case?
"Every time a man tells a woman he loves her, based on which she sleeps with him, he could be convicted of rape."
Or, better yet, the case of Tonto Goldstein (http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?p=2630422)? :rolleyes:
arildno
Jul22-10, 04:13 AM
Normally, the word "pathetic" has a strong negative connotation to it. You're not seriously intending that, are you? :confused:
With "pathetic", I meant a rather hopeless, irrational move that was way too insufficient to counter what it intended to do.
This story made me cringe: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-10717186
An Israeli response: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3O0aRE6fcaE
What are you thoughts? I find this verdict ridiculous. According to the woman in the video, if I get in bed with someone after telling them I own a Ferrari (which I don't), I've potentially committed rape. Are there similar cases in the West?
Sounds like the moaning of a unhappy ***** who didnt got her way after spreading her legs.
She should be put in jail as well.
Normally, the word "pathetic" has a strong negative connotation to it. You're not seriously intending that, are you? :confused:
Actually, yes, those kinds of laws are pathetic (with full negative connotations). If you follow this line of thought I know a quite high percentage of women who should be in jail (for similar reasons ranging from strategic presentation to downright lies to preserve a relationship with a partner of good social position and reasonable wealth)
AUK 1138
Jul22-10, 04:44 AM
The fact that some of your arguments are along the lines of "not wanting to have sex with a man of a different religion is wrong and illegal" is absolutely pathetic. sure, she must be pretty slutty to give it up on day one but to say that it's wrong of her to want a man of the same religion is just stupid. granted, the fact that that is grounds for rape is imo a bit ridiculous, but hey, i really don't give a ****.
cronxeh
Jul22-10, 07:33 AM
I wonder if sticking your wet pinky into someone's ear is considered a form of rape?
Chi Meson
Jul22-10, 07:40 AM
The fact that some of your arguments are along the lines of "not wanting to have sex with a man of a different religion is wrong and illegal" is absolutely pathetic. sure, she must be pretty slutty to give it up on day one but to say that it's wrong of her to want a man of the same religion is just stupid. granted, the fact that that is grounds for rape is imo a bit ridiculous, but hey, i really don't give a ****.
Regarding the bold statement, which post(s) are you referring to?
Pattonias
Jul22-10, 08:00 AM
I wonder if sticking your wet pinky into someone's ear is considered a form of rape?
Being an adult now I could promise that this would probably lead to an assault and battery :tongue2:
cronxeh
Jul22-10, 08:02 AM
Being an adult now I could promise that this would probably lead to an assault and battery :tongue2:
I stuck my wet falange into your pinna! :rofl:
Pattonias
Jul22-10, 08:02 AM
It seems to me that this would be a risk of casual sex. In most of the examples that have been given, taking a week to meet someone before consenting to sex would avoid most deception.
TheStatutoryApe
Jul22-10, 08:04 AM
A while back someone posted a story about a Florida woman who sued a man for rape by fraud. I believe she actually married him and then found out sometime later that he had been a Cuban "spy". I'll have to look that up when I get home.
Pattonias
Jul22-10, 08:06 AM
A while back someone posted a story about a Florida woman who sued a man for rape by fraud. I believe she actually married him and then found out sometime later that he had been a Cuban "spy". I'll have to look that up when I get home.
lol, he could have gotten a few hook ups using that as a pick-up line. "Hey baby, wanna meet a real spy?".
She would be guilty of discrimination on an unlawful basis. Surely it isn't kosher, when examining whether a person is a suitable partner, for their race (or even religion) to transparently be the sole deciding factor. If the offer of sex had been provable in writing, surely it would be tortuous if he were denied on those grounds alone. (It doesn't seem like she were unsatisfied with his cultural personality nor preconcerned with religious vows and ceremony.)
My new pick-up line when hitting on college co-eds is going to be:
"If you don't have sex with me, I'll call my lawyer and sue you for age discrimination."
I find the whole idea ridiculous. Love is a buyer beware endeavor. No one forced her to have sex with a man she didn't know.
cronxeh
Jul22-10, 08:12 AM
You know its funny.. when he took off his pants his weapon of choice for rape did not look any different from the one she intended to see :biggrin:
I have to wonder if she even bothered to tell the guy that not being Jewish was a dealbreaker. There is nothing in the article that stated that she listed her preconditions in advance.
If she did state her preconditions, did she state every one of them? What if he was Jewish and decided to change his religion after meeting her? I'm sure that she didn't have time for that discussion.
Chi Meson
Jul22-10, 08:31 AM
You know its funny.. when he took off his pants his weapon of choice for rape did not look any different from the one she intended to see :biggrin:
Jew vs. non-American, non-Jew; I believe it was supposed to look different.
cronxeh
Jul22-10, 08:37 AM
i thought they said he was a muslim
*facepalm moment*
h'Okay lets backtrace the origin of this awesome joke.
Muslims and Jews both circumcise their children. Extrapolate-a-mundo
Pattonias
Jul22-10, 08:43 AM
I think it they are making the argument that he wasn't Jewish, not that he is Muslim.
Here is the article at CNN: LINK (http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/meast/07/21/israel.rape.by.deception/index.html?iref=NS1)
Apparently she had at first tried to accuse him of actual rape, but the defence was able to prove that it was indeed consentual. This rape by deception thing was the next charge brought.
If someone has sex with a mall santa, can they sue when they find out he isn't really Santa Clause?
I heard about this on the radio today too. Apparently, she met him at a gas station, talked about and admired his motor bike, then they went across the road to a building and had sex.
You would suppose there was SOME onus on the woman here. I think it's sour grapes (that he wasn't Jewish) on her part.
Look, if it had been a month long deception on his part, she might have a case - but she just met him at the gas station and agreed to bonk with him.
Sheesh !
(I should drive my bike to the gas station more often)
Mentallic
Jul22-10, 11:13 AM
And how can she know she would want to marry the guy after a day? He could be a big jerk for that matter, oh but wait... he's supposedly jewish and wealthy... It's ok then.
Pattonias
Jul22-10, 12:23 PM
I believe that we are watching the antics of two crazy people. I have decided to stop trying to apply reason to this exchange.
What probably really happened:
She made a random hook-up.
Someone found out so she screamed rape.
They pressed charges and the defence showed it was concentual.
She is facing charges for raising false allegations.
The prosecuter thought up this way to raise the charges again.
Her boyfriend/fiance/husband is going to leave her regardless.
Guy will learn not to hook up with a random girl at the gas station because that is a crazy thing to do and it will most likely end up entagling you with a crazy person. Of course, a sane person would know this so I think they are both crazy.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Neither of these people are devoit followers of their repective religions so I can't honestly take there views on the religouse matter seriously.
Jimmy Snyder
Jul22-10, 12:46 PM
Wouldn't the burdon of proof be on the prosecution? If I wanted to prove I was Jewish I don't think I could do it. And if you wanted to prove that I wasn't, I don't think you could do it either.
I agree with Evo that worse stuff than this happens in the Middle East. But at the same time, we can't simply excuse bad behavior by pointing to worse behavior. Israel is basically funded by America. Whether or not you think this is a good thing, I think this at least entitles us to some say in how they treat their people over there. This is a highly racist verdict. "Rape by deception" is not rape at all, and only minimizes real rape.
I hate to say this, but I sometimes have to look at the middle east with surprise that any place can be that backward.
Pattonias
Jul22-10, 02:27 PM
I agree with Evo that worse stuff than this happens in the Middle East. But at the same time, we can't simply excuse bad behavior by pointing to worse behavior. Israel is basically funded by America. Whether or not you think this is a good thing, I think this at least entitles us to some say in how they treat their people over there. This is a highly racist verdict. "Rape by deception" is not rape at all, and only minimizes real rape.
I hate to say this, but I sometimes have to look at the middle east with surprise that any place can be that backward.
Is this really a good example though? This easily could have happened in the United States. Instead it would be "He said he was a doctor, but it turns out he works the gas station I met him at. He tricked me!"
Is this really a good example though? This easily could have happened in the United States. Instead it would be "He said he was a doctor, but it turns out he works the gas station I met him at. He tricked me!"
I don't think the man in that hypothetical scenario would have been convicted, however. This isn't about the silliness of the charge, but the silliness of the verdict.
I don't think the man in that hypothetical scenario would have been convicted, however. This isn't about the silliness of the charge, but the silliness of the verdict.Surely he can appeal? I must say that I don't agree with the verdict if the reports are accurate.
Office_Shredder
Jul22-10, 03:45 PM
In at least one article about this his lawyer said they planned on appealing
Office_Shredder
Jul22-10, 04:19 PM
That's completely irrelevant to the thread
cronxeh
Jul22-10, 04:21 PM
That's completely irrelevant to the thread
Yea! What the heck is that. I was expecting to see raping and pillaging
mheslep
Jul22-10, 04:33 PM
That's completely irrelevant to the threadYes you're right (deleted), though I wish someone had said so initially in response to #11.
cesiumfrog
Jul22-10, 07:10 PM
Surely he can appeal?
Supposedly he's already been under house arrest for two years.
Yes you're right (deleted), though I wish someone had said so initially in response to #11. Huh?
mheslep
Jul22-10, 07:19 PM
Supposedly he's already been under house arrest for two years.
Huh?Just the first couple sentences, OT:
If you're in the US then you're pretty much responsible for the ongoing excess power of the Israeli government.[...]
cesiumfrog
Jul22-10, 07:30 PM
mheslep, that was in direct response to Evo's question of whether "we" are in a place to judge. #36 echoes the same.
I think Evo meant to question whether or not one culture can judge another (and which culture's values it should do so using). Relativism, right? But clearly there is no such problem with using one's own cultural values to judge whether you approve of the effects which are resulting from continuing active support by your own society.
The incident seems to be more abhorrent to our eyes than most Israelis'. I guess the question is whether it is representative and indicative of Israel's treatment of humans (Arabs) in their region, or whether it is representative merely of crazy outlier court verdicts worldwide (maybe it really was a rape and this was just a ploy to ensure a conviction). At any rate, if those courts were overconcerned with the appearance of justice being done despite expected bias, you wouldn't be surprised by a verdict that she also raped-by-deception him.
Is this really a good example though? This easily could have happened in the United States. Instead it would be "He said he was a doctor, but it turns out he works the gas station I met him at. He tricked me!"
I suppose that is the most direct analogy. I'm sure this happens all the time. Whatever this is, it's not criminal and it certainly isn't rape. I find it hard to believe that this sort of verdict is tolerated in a supposed bastion of civilization in the middle east.
Jimmy Snyder
Jul23-10, 03:18 AM
I suppose that is the most direct analogy. I'm sure this happens all the time. Whatever this is, it's not criminal and it certainly isn't rape. I find it hard to believe that this sort of verdict is tolerated in a supposed bastion of civilization in the middle east.
Israel is not perfect, but it is better than it's neighbors in this regard. It is a poor judge who cannot see this.
Hypothetically speaking, can I have an ex-girlfriend thrown in jail because she told me that she was a "nice person"? :devil:
Perhaps not, but it has gotten me out from under a couple of alimony payments. :biggrin:
Truth be told, I'm having a bit of trouble keeping track of this crap.
The simple fact of the matter is that there are no such things as "human rights" aside from those imparted by a given political/social structure.
edit: I'm going to blame this on the alcohol; I began composing this as a follow-up to post #11. It took me a tad longer than I anticipated. :redface:
Pattonias
Jul23-10, 07:51 AM
Truth be told, I'm having a bit of trouble keeping track of this crap.
The simple fact of the matter is that there are no such things as "human rights" aside from those imparted by a given political/social structure.
Isn't that kind of what human rights are? If there was no political/social structure there would be no way of defining and then enforcing "human rights".
TheStatutoryApe
Jul23-10, 08:17 AM
Isn't that kind of what human rights are? If there was no political/social structure there would be no way of defining and then enforcing "human rights".
There are those, particularly politicians and rights activists, that would argue that "human rights" are universal.
Pattonias
Jul23-10, 09:21 AM
There are those, particularly politicians and rights activists, that would argue that "human rights" are universal.
Unfortunatly, those rights are only extended to those with a means of enforcing their defence.
Isn't that kind of what human rights are? If there was no political/social structure there would be no way of defining and then enforcing "human rights".
My point exactly. In the absence of a sociopolitical structure which defines and enforces them, such do not exist.
Stats, you are pointing out the same thing. Those who argue that human rights are universal are members of a structure that seeks to impose their opinions. Ideally, that assertion comes from a sense of outrage that is felt when someone is abused; more typically, it arises as part of a political agenda intended to extend the power of those who are protesting the inequity.
Our ancestors didn't become the dominant species on the planet by being nice. They arose by killing anything that was perceived as either a threat or a food source. "Human rights" began as, and continue to be, a bribe by those in power. It's an extrapolation of the old feudal system. You serve me and provide me with sustenance, and I will field an army (to which you might be called to serve) in aid of your protection. Strength in numbers. The more people there are in a group, the stronger it is. Hence nations and armies. Those enforce (or try to) whatever "rights" they consider appropriate for their citizens.
"Human rights" are strictly a construct that a nation grants in return for the loyalty of its subjects.
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