Russian spy claims David Kelly was "exterminated"

[madness]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1297444/KGB-agent-Boris-Karpichkovs-claim-David-Kelly-exterminated-faces-probe.html

Has anyone else seen this? I've always regarded his death as very suspicious, and this seems just to be further evidence against his supposed suicide. Doctor's had already claimed he could not have killed himself. What do you think?

[heusdens]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1297444/KGB-agent-Boris-Karpichkovs-claim-David-Kelly-exterminated-faces-probe.html

Has anyone else seen this? I've always regarded his death as very suspicious, and this seems just to be further evidence against his supposed suicide. Doctor's had already claimed he could not have killed himself. What do you think?

I think that story was already covered several years ago. I think it is no secret he was exterminated because of the Iraq war.

[rootX]

I noticed an article about his death today:
21 August 2010 Last updated at 23:49 ET
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11050587

Further information:
Friday 18 July 2003 11.22 BST
http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2003/jul/18/politicsandiraq.iraq
Last Updated: Thursday, 13 May, 2004, 12:13 GMT 13:13 UK
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/3709243.stm
Last Updated: Tuesday, 16 March, 2004, 14:43 GMT
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/3513812.stm

[hagopbul]

i think that B government are personally responsible for this crime and if we let it go unpunished others will committee more awful crimes in the future

[mugaliens]

From the article linked in the OP: There is also outrage at the fact that full details of his postmortem examination are to be kept secret for 70 years, and that no inquest took place.

Wow. This is what's done to protect top secret info, not to protect the true cause of an individual's death.

If it was a murder, then it was a murder. This isn't the sort of thing governments either normal, or should ever, hide, even when it means the truth might be a little sticky or embarrassing.

There are standards, and then there are limits. This violates the first and crosses the second. It's time to undo what's been done and make things right.

i think that B government are personally responsible for this crime and if we let it go unpunished others will committee more awful crimes in the future

Yes. When the lines are crossed in this manner, things only get worse.

[nismaratwork]

It's not exactly Trotsky, but this wasn't the best staged suicide I've ever seen either. It's a terrible thing to be an individual in the way of the interests of nations, and not a little bit fatal either. That said, if this were a different war that wasn't a pile of manure, it might have been acceptable; assassination is a useful tool, but this is an abuse of that tool.

[Hurkyl]

Wow. This is what's done to protect top secret info, not to protect the true cause of an individual's death.
Which suggests more possibilities than simply "the government is covering up a murder".

[nismaratwork]

Which suggests more possibilities than simply "the government is covering up a murder".

Personally I agree with you here, but we should never forget how concerned governments can be with the appearance of impropriety, or just plain looking dumb. If this fellow was murdered by Russians, the Brits might still want to cover it, even if they wanted him alive so that they don't look like fools. That reasoning works for any combination of nations. The most that can be said here, is that motive for his death was strong on many fronts, and means and opportunity are RARELY lacking.

Whoever did this, botched it in my view however; you rarely see someone, especially a male, take pills AND cut. Gunshot wounds and cutting, and hanging are the most common for males, and rarely is there a combination of methods. People like to feel "comfortable", and the mind that wants to slip away with a lethal dose of drugs, doesn't want to cut themselves. That said, MANY suicides do take drugs or alcohol prior to committing the act, but not as an attempt, just a means to gin up courage. This doesn't fit either pattern.

I'm constantly dissapointed by the means of "covert" killing employed in the last few decades by states; private entities and individuals seem far more capable.

[cristo]

It's not exactly Trotsky, but this wasn't the best staged suicide I've ever seen either.

Note that this is pure speculation. Even the coroner came out the other day stating that this was a "textbook" suicide: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11050587

[cristo]

Wow. This is what's done to protect top secret info, not to protect the true cause of an individual's death.

No it's not; it's a way to gag the press to help prevent the future distress of Kelly's family. The information is available to doctors and lawyers involved in any legal proceedings.

[nismaratwork]

Note that this is pure speculation. Even the coroner came out the other day stating that this was a "textbook" suicide: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11050587

On it's face it isn't a "textbook" suicide, unless this coroner is working from radically different textbooks than those everyone else uses. That being said, of course this is just speculation, and will remain so. The words of a Russian spy do not confirmation make. I believe he was assassinated, but that is definitely my belief and not a certainty.

[cristo]

On it's face it isn't a "textbook" suicide, unless this coroner is working from radically different textbooks than those everyone else uses.

Or he's privy to far more information than the public, like, having examined the dead body. I don't understand how you can make contrary claims to those made by the coroner when you have a fraction of the facts in hand.

[nismaratwork]

Or he's privy to far more information than the public, like, having examined the dead body. I don't understand how you can make contrary claims to those made by the coroner when you have a fraction of the facts in hand.

The simple fact that he apparently attempted death-by-pills, and then added a wrist-slashing "coup de grace" makes it less than textbook, as I mentioned in a previous post. I'm sorry, but that is not a textbook suicide, especially for a male. 29 tablets of what amounts to Tylenol is an odd MO for suicide, if you're immediately going to slash a wrist. You could argue that he wanted to ease the pain of cutting himself, but that would be highly unusual in that context. You could argue that he wanted to give himself a horribly damaging and lethal dose of acetaminophen so that he wouldn't "chicken out", knowing his liver would be shot, but that's a bit far-fetched.

It is unusual for someone to leave no note, especially when they're still interacting normally with friends and family. Cutting the wrist and taking pills is a deeply strange MO for a grown man who was angry and frustrated with his superiors. It's also unusual to commit such an act away from home. Frankly, a "textbook" suicide would involve slashing both wrists, unless you posit that he cut the ulnar and radial tendons (with a horizontal cut) on the left wrist, and was unable to cut the other wrist. This would be an amazingly stupid thing for a scientist to do, and cutting of the wrists and taking minimally narcotic pills with a liver-killing dose of acetaminophen is more often a suicidal gesture or means of self-harm than a definitive act.

I could go on, but you can do incredibly easy research and discover that if this is the ME's textbook, he shouldn't be in a morgue. He takes a very lethal dose of Co-Proxamol (presumably to achieve a narcotic high from the dextropropoxyphene), which is the method of someone who wants "death by pills", then adds the relatively painful single-wrist cut? Do you have any idea how unusual it is for people to suddenly mix methods, do so out of doors, and without a note left?

Here is one study dealing specifically with the co-proxamol suicide, among others.

http://cebmh.warne.ox.ac.uk/csr/resmethods.html

http://www.suicide.org/suicide-statistics.html

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC154756/

Note in the last, that co-proxamol accounts for 5% of suicides, and of those 18% of that 5% didn't involve other drugs at the same time. This is a method of suicide that is not uncommon, but is most common among the young, and not consistent with wrist-cutting. Here's a thought; I inject you with a short-lived opiate in the wrist during a "handshake", then give you common pills. To cover the injection site, I slash your wrist. Again, my opinion, but it fits with decent trade-craft more than it does with the psychology of suicide.