View Full Version : America you don't know what you've done.
Laser Eyes
Mar25-03, 05:28 AM
When I see the violent and passionate protests against the US right across the Arab world I feel a great dread and sadness at what I know is coming. There will be a level of terrorism that the US has never known. Look at the anger that is building. The anti-American hatred that the US is generating in Arab countries will fuel decades of terrorism. I predict that for years to come there will be many more terrorist attacks on US soil and unfortunately many deaths. If you thought the terrorist attack on 9/11 was bad just watch out. Worse is to come. The US - so much power and so little wisdom.
Go hide in a closet. We'll let you know when it's over.
russ_watters
Mar25-03, 09:30 AM
Go hide in a closet. We'll let you know when it's over. Lol, Alias. I won't tell him if you don't...
Laser Eyes
Mar25-03, 10:25 AM
Go hide in a closet. We'll let you know when it's over.
Sometimes I wonder why I bother caring.
Caring is fine and noble. I think that most of us actually do. The problem is that caring alone isn't enough. What is worse, is caring about those that don't give a crap about you. This is where people at this forum seem to have a problem.
Not all people are good, just because they are human. Some people are bad. Some people have no consideration for their fellow humans and never will. These people are best left alone. Unfortunately, sometimes these people wish to impose their will on you, your friends or your family. When this happens, it is necessary to act. And yes sometimes when you act, it is like agitating a hornets nest. Things sometimes become more difficult. But that's life. You deal with the threat, absorb your loses, and move on.
Of course, when dealing with dangerous human beings, you have a couple of options. One method is to imprison, rehabilitate, and then release. Another is to kill. Sometimes the former is not effective. That leaves us with the latter. Sadam, his followers, and every anti-western terrorist falls under the last category. The best thing that can be done, for the sake of humanity, is to kill these people. I know it sounds harsh, but it is the only viable alternative.
Alias, the question is, how far do you go? Do you resort to genocide so you can feel safe against an attack that will likely not affect you personally? You cannot fight terrorism with killing,because it simply creates more terrorism...THAT'S THE POINT OF TERRORISM! Terrorism, in part, is designed to force teh very reaction you advocate. You have the makings of a terrorist supporter in your own way, whether you know it or not.
Originally posted by Zero
You cannot fight terrorism with killing, because it simply creates more terrorism...THAT'S THE POINT OF TERRORISM!
I disagree. It's like fighting gangs in LA. You kill one gang member, you're in trouble. You kill all of them, you own the turf.
Of course, I understand it is not as simple as that, but it's a start.
------------------
Question: Do you think that Usama Bin Laden would stand down his fighters if the US military pulled out of Saudi Arabia, and the US stopped supporting Israel? (Disregard the current conflict in Iraq)
Originally posted by Alias
I disagree. It's like fighting gangs in LA. You kill one gang member, you're in trouble. You kill all of them, you own the turf.
Of course, I understand it is not as simple as that, but it's a start.
------------------
Question: Do you think that Usama Bin Laden would stand down his fighters if the US military pulled out of Saudi Arabia, and the US stopped supporting Israel? (Disregard the current conflict in Iraq)
No, it isn't a start....it is a recipe for more violence. Will you kill a man's children, to make sure they don't grow up hating you for killing their father? Will you show 'mercy' by sterilizing their wives and daughters?
You can't not punish people for doing the wrong thing because it might make them angry.
So what's your solution to terrorism?
Oh, and answer my Bin Laden question!?!!?!??!
Hmmmm....is revenge the most important thing in your mind? Is it worth destroying entire cultures for the sake of vengence? And who are you going to punish, exactly? That is one of teh points of terrorism; no uniforms, not central organization, no one to punish.
No. Defense is the most important.
How would you handle it?
And what about this question...
Do you think that Usama Bin Laden would stand down his fighters if the US military pulled out of Saudi Arabia, and the US stopped supporting Israel? (Disregard the current conflict in Iraq)
I can't tell you what Bin Laden would do...I'm not a TV psychic.
I can tell you that defense and mass murder are not the same thing. You seem to suggest that we should simply gun down people who disagree with U.S. policies, on the grounds that some of them might be terrorists.
N_Quire
Mar25-03, 01:59 PM
Alias, First of all I support this war against Saddam Hussein. I think it's the right thing to do and I think the world will come around eventually and agree that eliminating Saddam and his leadership was an act of liberation.
However, you can't simply dismiss the war critics as cowards and bleeding heart liberals. They have a point when they say that anti-American sentiment is being fuelled and that the world could become less safe as a result of the war. There are huge costs to consider, for instance losses of business income as a result of American reluctance to travel abroad, damage to relations with our allies, future mistrust of America and its motives, etc, etc.
When the war is over, there will have to be reconstruction and diplomacy, not just in Iraq but between the USA and France, Germany, and so on. American isolationism would be pointless.
The peace protesters should understand too that the time for their efforts is not simply in times of war but they should be doing their bit by whatever means available to stop thugs and tyrants coming to power. War is not only a failing of politics and diplomacy, it is also a sign of the failure of the peace movement in finding ways to be active and constructive in global politics. It is so easy and lazy to demonstrate when war has started. What are these folks doing in peace time to keep the peace?
So please, Alias, a complete picture is needed. Military might couple with diplomacy and enlightened leadership are required.
N_Quire,
You are mostly correct.
However, when it comes to terrorists that hate Americans, and activly try to kill them, there is only one correct response. That response is to kill them. If that makes other people hate and want to kill Americans as well, then I say kill them too. Let the cycle continue as long is it must until people realize that trying to kill Americans will only bring them death. I firmly beleive that at some point, people will get the message.
My main argument with the left is, they rarely have a viable solution and mostly consume time, resources, and sometimes human life with their complaints.
N_Quire
Mar25-03, 02:44 PM
Alias, I agree with you. Even if a direct link between Al Qaeda and Saddam is yet to be proved, I don't need evidence of the link in order to support the war. Saddam is a brutal dictator who maims, tortures, gases and murders the citizens of his own country. He should and will be removed.
Nicool003
Mar25-03, 05:28 PM
When I see the violent and passionate protests against the US right across the Arab world I feel a great dread and sadness at what I know is coming.
Think for a minute. Afghanistan "hated" us because the women couldn't speak out and the men were forced into terror training centers or else forced to work. Now Afghanistan loves us. They have been doing well. The same will be for Iraq. THey hate saddam but are forced to live under his rule and everyone else was too much of a WIMP to do anything.
There will be a level of terrorism that the US has never known. Look at the anger that is building. The anti-American hatred that the US is generating in Arab countries will fuel decades of terrorism. I predict that for years to come there will be many more terrorist attacks on US soil and unfortunately many deaths. If you thought the terrorist attack on 9/11 was bad just watch out.
How do you know?
The US - so much power and so little wisdom
stick that your ear.
The point that I can help noticing is that the Trade Center Massacre happened while we were at peace. And look what it got us. Hoping that if we left them alone, they would leave us alone and adopting a "live in let live" stance resulted in those attacks.
Immediately after the attacks, an Arab businessman made the comment, "perhaps the U.S. should rethink its policies in the Middle East".
Perhaps we have.
Galatea
Mar25-03, 06:31 PM
I love how the "liberals" are always advocating peace but never offering any viable alternatives. Do you honestly believe if we love Saddam enough and send some white doves flying over Iraq things will be ok? Zero, do you have any bright ideas about what could be done?
Because all I've seen from people who think like you is a few semi-hostile (and pointless) protests about the war which did nothing but give people without jobs something to do and waste even more government money.
I do support the war because I think the US is going about things fairly carefully - I wouldn't condone a straight bombing, but I'm sick of liberals doing _nothing_ but whining and worshipping Tom Daschle.
Who is Tom Daschle? Is he someone I should know about? May I make puns from his name?
^^^ Tom Daschle is a US Senator; he's the Democratic minority leader.
It's begging the question to ask "well what other solutions than war do you have to get rid of Saddam?" What if I said "China/North Korea/the USSR is a repressive dictatorship, how else will we get rid of it besides war???" Maybe there's no other way, but should we invade China? Hell no.
A better question is "will a war to remove Saddam do more harm than good?" Anti-war people often (not always) think the answer to this is no.
Laser Eyes
Mar25-03, 09:47 PM
I disagree. It's like fighting gangs in LA. You kill one gang member, you're in trouble. You kill all of them, you own the turf.
Of course, I understand it is not as simple as that, but it's a start.
That was Hitler's philosophy. Kill all the Jews, you own the turf.
Originally posted by Laser Eyes
That was Hitler's philosophy. Kill all the Jews, you own the turf.
So..in order to make your point seem superior you must make such a stretch as to compare jews to gangs? Hitler's philosophy was to kill the jews and you have a nice superior anglo saxon world. Give me a break, your bordering on the dispicable.
i find it despicable to see people ignoring the similarities between the two.[:((]
Originally posted by kyleb
i find it despicable to see people ignoring the similarities between the two.[:((]
Oh, really, maybe you should explain to all what the similarities between gangs and jews are? please, do tell.
i am talking about the similarities between wiping out gangs who you don't get along with and religions you don't get along with.
russ_watters
Mar25-03, 11:34 PM
The point that I can help noticing is that the Trade Center Massacre happened while we were at peace. And look what he got us. Hoping that if we left them alone, they would leave us alone and adopting a "live in let live" stance resulted in those attacks. This is such a hugely important point, yet it is ignored. Inconvenient maybe?Oh, really, maybe you should explain to all what the similarities between gangs and jews are? please, do tell. Kat, Kyleb's insinuation was quite clear - Jews are a gang of criminals that should be wiped out. Again, Kyleb. Sick. I'm really starting to think you need medical attention.
Greetings !
Originally posted by Laser Eyes
When I see the violent and passionate protests against the US right across the Arab world I feel a great dread and sadness at what I know is coming. There will be a level of terrorism that the US has never known. Look at the anger that is building. The anti-American hatred that the US is generating in Arab countries will fuel decades of terrorism. I predict that for years to come there will be many more terrorist attacks on US soil and unfortunately many deaths. If you thought the terrorist attack on 9/11 was bad just watch out. Worse is to come. The US - so much power and so little wisdom.
So ?
What else is new...
At least, now there's one less country to worry
about. Hopefully, if Iraq becomes a successful
democratic country it will serve as an additional
"internal" example to all those fools.
Live long and prosper.
russ_watters, i take it you have reading comperhesion issues?
Originally posted by Galatea
I love how the "liberals" are always advocating peace but never offering any viable alternatives. Do you honestly believe if we love Saddam enough and send some white doves flying over Iraq things will be ok? Zero, do you have any bright ideas about what could be done?
Because all I've seen from people who think like you is a few semi-hostile (and pointless) protests about the war which did nothing but give people without jobs something to do and waste even more government money.
I do support the war because I think the US is going about things fairly carefully - I wouldn't condone a straight bombing, but I'm sick of liberals doing _nothing_ but whining and worshipping Tom Daschle.
Didn't I used to respect you? Too bad you had to post this screed against 'liberals', whoever they are.
The question you need to consider is this: if someone doesn't agree with you, or the chimp in the White House 100%, does that mean they are 100% opposed to you? Did you ever consider the vast grey area between the Bush plan and complete pacifism? Worshipping who? Because we don't worship Bush, we must worship his opposition?
Think on that, and try again.
Originally posted by kat
So..in order to make your point seem superior you must make such a stretch as to compare jews to gangs? Hitler's philosophy was to kill the jews and you have a nice superior anglo saxon world. Give me a break, your bordering on the dispicable.
I think you are being oversensitive, like most people are about Jews...and as though you can lump a group together and pretend they all fit in one tiny box.
The comparison gangs/jews is indeed bad. You could have said jews/muslims, since both refer to religious and cultural groups. But the same applies to catholics/protestants/ortodox, etc.
To the terrorism, to kill the opponents is maybe a good solution, but this is a vicious cycle that never ends. And no islamic terrorist will care whether he will be killed if he kills americans, since for them to die is a kind of liberation. Then you should eliminate the whole islamic world, but this is genocide, because the terms would be the same applied to jews along history. To generalize is the worst mistake than can be done.
Surely the actual conflict will generate new attacks, but with the time this will become routine.
Originally posted by Zero
I think you are being oversensitive, like most people are about Jews...and as though you can lump a group together and pretend they all fit in one tiny box.
No, I don't believe I'm being "oversensitive". There is no parrallel between police ridding the city of gangs=armies ridding the world of terrorism=hitler ridding the world of jews. Gangs terrorize communities and in some cases cities, terrorist terrorize cities, countries and in some cases the large chunks of the world. Jews did not terrorize Hitler.
As an aside, it appears to me that kyleb uses arguing tactics that you would never find acceptable were he not on the "anti" war side of the coin.
Laser Eyes
Mar26-03, 08:46 AM
Originally posted by kat
No, I don't believe I'm being "oversensitive". There is no parrallel between police ridding the city of gangs=armies ridding the world of terrorism=hitler ridding the world of jews. Gangs terrorize communities and in some cases cities, terrorist terrorize cities, countries and in some cases the large chunks of the world. Jews did not terrorize Hitler.
The suggestion that brought up the comparison with Hitler and the Jews was that you can wipe out terrorism by simply killing all terrorists. Hitler couldn't exterminate the Jews (though he tried very hard) and the US isn't going to rid itself or the world of terrorists by the so-called war on terrorism. It will have the reverse effect. The point I have been trying to make is that by invading Iraq America is creating more terrorists/terrorism than would otherwise exist.
After 9/11 I saw many US politicians and others on TV making speeches about how terrible it was but one thing I never heard anyone say (and still haven't) is to ask "What is that we did that could have made someone hate us so much to want to do this to us?" Do you think some Arabs got out of bed one day and for no particular reason decided to form a terrorist group, go to America, learn how to fly, hijack four passenger jets and fly them into buildings to kill thousand of innocent people? There must have been a reason for it but one thing America will not do is look in the mirror to find it.
Think about the effect this invasion of Iraq is going to have in the years to come. If you think Arabs hated America before you aint seen nothing yet. Terrorism is fueled by hatred. The organisers of terrorism will have countless young volunteers who will gladly give up their lives to get back at the "evil empire". There is going to be so much terrorism in America in the next few years that it will transform the country. Life in the US will never be the same. If you think this war against Iraq is going to reduce terrorism you couldn't be more wrong.
russ_watters
Mar26-03, 09:02 AM
The point I have been trying to make is that by invading Iraq America is creating more terrorists/terrorism than would otherwise exist. As someone else pointed out, 9/10 was a relatively peaceful day. So clearly violence by the US didn't cause 9/11. And since 9/11 there has not been an increase in terrorist acts against the US. So the violence by the US on the terrorists has NOT increased the amount of terrorism.
After 9/11 I saw many US politicians and others on TV making speeches about how terrible it was but one thing I never heard anyone say (and still haven't) is to ask "What is that we did that could have made someone hate us so much to want to do this to us?" Do you think some Arabs got out of bed one day and for no particular reason decided to form a terrorist group, go to America, learn how to fly, hijack four passenger jets and fly them into buildings to kill thousand of innocent people? There must have been a reason for it but one thing America will not do is look in the mirror to find it. So answer your own question. What is the US doing that is bad enough to warrant killing 3,000 of our civilians (actually, the goal was to kill EVERYONE in the towers - closer to 50,000 people) and how can we change it? Bin Laden has made some specific demands. Do you consider his demands reasonable?
russ_watters, i take it you have reading comperhesion issues? Actually, kyle I wasn't the only one to question the analogy. Would you care to clarify how jews are like a gang of criminals?
The suggestion that brought up the comparison with Hitler and the Jews was that you can wipe out terrorism by simply killing all terrorists. Hitler couldn't exterminate the Jews (though he tried very hard) and the US isn't going to rid itself or the world of terrorists by the so-called war on terrorism. It will have the reverse effect. Laser, so you are saying that killing Jews creates more Jews in the same way killing terrorists creates more terrorists? Even if you are correct in your interpretation of Kyle's analogy, its still a flawed analogy.
Lets drop the Jews/Nazis thing, ok? I read it to be reflective of the Nazis, not trying to say anything about Jewish people.
russ_watters
Mar26-03, 04:12 PM
Fair enough, Zero. You're not the one who proposed the analogy anyway.
Galatea
Mar26-03, 04:28 PM
Originally posted by Zero
Didn't I used to respect you? Too bad you had to post this screed against 'liberals', whoever they are.
The question you need to consider is this: if someone doesn't agree with you, or the chimp in the White House 100%, does that mean they are 100% opposed to you? Did you ever consider the vast grey area between the Bush plan and complete pacifism? Worshipping who? Because we don't worship Bush, we must worship his opposition?
Think on that, and try again.
I don't know if you did or not - we never spoke.
Either way, my post was not so much directed right at you. I posed a specific question to you (which you did not answer) but most of what I said was a rant on common behavior I see in those opposed to Republican's, which Republican's are also guilty of in opposition to Democrat's.
It just bothers me when people point fingers and say "Hey, what you're doing is bad!" when it is apparently the only solution anyone has thought of. Show me alternatives - peace is not one in this case in my opinion. As someone already pointed out, the 9/11 thing happened when we were at peace.
So if you took it personally, sorry. You must be a liberal. [;)]
Greetings !
Originally posted by Laser Eyes
After 9/11 I saw many US politicians and others on TV making speeches about how terrible it was but one thing I never heard anyone say (and still haven't) is to ask "What is that we did that could have made someone hate us so much to want to do this to us?" Do you think some Arabs got out of bed one day and for no particular reason decided to form a terrorist group, go to America, learn how to fly, hijack four passenger jets and fly them into buildings to kill thousand of innocent people? There must have been a reason for it but one thing America will not do is look in the mirror to find it.
Because, their Koran tells them that Muslims
are the chosen ones. It tells them that they
must spread Islam across the world by any means
availible including force. If they are unable
to do so then they can make alliances with some
of the "infidels" to defeat the others. Such
alliances can be broken, however, since they
are illegal because the were signed with
non-Muslims.
Further more, they believe that Islam will
deliver "them" - that is they will have great
life in "heaven". So, as they see the "infidels"
having good lives and themselves lying in the
"dirt" they simply can't stand it.
The strict and violent laws of Islam are amongst
the reasons that prevented this unfortunate
religion from becoming "reformed" like other
religions. This fundumentalism is totally extreme
and allows no compromise.
Live long and prosper.
I'm afraid that these particular Arabs hate us because we interfere with their genocidal agenda. I'm not trying to bring up the hole "Hitler" thing again, but this groupe of Islamic fundamentalists is bent on renedring the Jewish race extinct. We got in the way of that, and they will continue to attack us untill we are willing to stand aside and allow genocide.
But even that (IMO) will only bring the attacks to a halt untill said genocide is complete. They will then turn to the US, and all else who are not Arab Islamic fundementalists.
So I'm afraid that, with regard to the question:
Originally posted by Laser Eyes
"What is that we did that could have made someone hate us so much to want to do this to us?"
the answer is, "We exist".
I've also considered the possibility that there is an effort by Arab{muslim?) leaders to pull the arab (muslim?) countries together by creating a common enemy. Is Saddam the modern day constantine? or is there an Arab constantine yet to come? History shows us that the great motivator of men has been religion and that the greatest weapon of rulers has been fanatics.
Originally posted by drag
It tells them that they
must spread Islam across the world by any means
availible including force.
could you quote the Koran to show that? from what i understand it is quite the opposite.
drag, Lurch, this is just not so! The teachings of Islam, like those of Christianity, are far from violent. Of course this has not stopped many rulers, Christian, Moslem, or other, from starting wars of aggression or conquest anyways, or from claiming religious justification for them. I mean, did anyone really expect George "Jesus is my favorite political philosopher" Bush to reject vengeance and follow:"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.
There is famous story in the Qu'ran about how Mohammed refused to attack the people of Medina first, even when they were plotting against him, because he had signed a treaty with them. The Qu'ran also flat-out condemns wars of aggression:YUSUFALI: Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors.
PICKTHAL: Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors.
SHAKIR: And fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you, and do not exceed the limits, surely Allah does not love those who exceed the limits.-Qu'ran 2:190
Originally posted by drag
Greetings !
It tells them that they
must spread Islam across the world by any means
availible including force. If they are unable
to do so then they can make alliances with some
of the "infidels" to defeat the others. Such
alliances can be broken, however, since they
are illegal because the were signed with
non-Muslims.
Further more, they believe that Islam will
deliver "them" - that is they will have great
life in "heaven". So, as they see the "infidels"
having good lives and themselves lying in the
"dirt" they simply can't stand it.
The above is a very good description of an "Islamist". "Islamism" should not be confused with the word "Islamic". A practictioner of "Islamism" would be titled an "Islamist"
All "Islamists" are Islamic(muslim), but not all Islamics(muslims) are "Islamists". Some unfamiliar with these exact terms may be using the less accurate "radical fundamentalist muslims" who are not necessarily "Islamists".
The distinction between "Muslims" and "Terrorist Islamists" should now be clear.
Greetings !
Originally posted by damgo
YUSUFALI: Fight in the cause of Allah...
PICKTHAL: Fight in the way of Allah...
SHAKIR: And fight in the way of Allah...
[:D]
They only read the first part... [;)]
Ever seen that written in the Bible or Hindu
teachings or other places ?
Religious people always exhagerate what they read
in their wholy writings, it's enough for them
that they are told to fight for Islam, the
technicalities are not important. [;)]
Live long and prosper.
Greetings !
Here's something for you to ponder about,
just a simple search for the word "fight"
in the Koran :
http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/k/koran/koran-idx?type=simple&q1=fight&size=First+100
An exerpt :
"Therefore let those fight in the way of Allah,
who sell this world's life for the hereafter;
and whoever fights in the way of Allah, then be
he slain or be he victorious, We shall grant
him a mighty reward."
Think about it...
Live long and prosper.
i have actually studied the Koran and i don't think your position is justified at all. i think you need to think about it drag, and not with the preconception that it is wrong either. damgo made some good point above which i do not see you taking into consideration.
russ_watters
Mar27-03, 02:32 AM
i have actually studied the Koran and i don't think your position is justified at all The problem, kyle, is as damgo pointed out the followers of a religion do not necessarily follow the book. IMO, the dominating ideology of islam is violent. This does not mean the majority of muslims are violent, just that the violent ones are in charge. It doesn't matter that the Koran (as I have heard) intends Islam to be a religion of peace.
well it matters when people make unjusfitable statments like the one drag did above.
Originally posted by Alias
The above is a very good description of an "Islamist". "Islamism" should not be confused with the word "Islamic". A practictioner of "Islamism" would be titled an "Islamist"
All "Islamists" are Islamic(muslim), but not all Islamics(muslims) are "Islamists". Some unfamiliar with these exact terms may be using the less accurate "radical fundamentalist muslims" who are not necessarily "Islamists".
The distinction between "Muslims" and "Terrorist Islamists" should now be clear.
(Thanks for clarrifying the terminology, Alias.)
Yea, that's why I reffered to them as "these particular Arabs" and "this groupe of Islamic fundementalists"; because I didn't want to attribute such qualities to an entire race, nationality, or faith, but I didn't know the word for "Islamists".
Would anyone have an idea as to how much of the Arab or Muslim world is of this persuasion? From things I've seen in recent years, it would appear to be a very large segment, perhaps even the majority?
the dominating ideology of islam is violentI have to totally, utterly, disagree. Just a question for you guys that think this -- are you basing this just on vague media reports, or on Moslems you know? Half my family is Moslem (and living in Iran to boot), and I run into lots of other Persians and Arabs around here. Islam is not a violent religion! It has its fair share of fanatics, and even mainstream Moslem leaders love to call on God and martyrdom to support their pet conflicts; but that doesn't mean much.
I mean, if you listen to Bush's speeches, he loves to call on God's blessing for the war, and talk about "a day of reckoning for the Iraqi regime", and make all sorts of other religious allusions. But this doesn't mean Christianity or most Christians are violent, or support this war.
re: the Bible, sure, I know of lots.Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn
a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.
-Matt 10:34
"Attack the land of Merathaim and those who live in Pekod. Pursue, kill and completely destroy them," declares the LORD .
"Do everything I have commanded you.
The noise of battle is in the land, the noise of great destruction!"
-Jer 50:21
The LORD said to Moses, "Take vengeance on the Midianites for the Israelites. After that, you will be gathered to your people"...
Moses was angry with the officers of the army-the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds-who returned from the battle.
"Have you allowed all the women to live?" he asked them. "They were the ones who followed Balaam's advice and were the means of turning the Israelites away from the LORD in what happened at Peor, so that a plague struck the LORD's people. Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.
Numbers 31:1-18
That is why I included the clarification of terms in this thread.
What is correct is that the dominating ideology of Islamism is violent.
I was trying to get people to notice that there is a proper distinction between Muslims and Islamists. I think, though that whoever coined the phrase could have done better, because for weeks I've been thinking that there must be some alternative spelling of Islamics or that people were using an incorrect term and should have been using the term Muslims when in fact they were using the term Islamists correctly in describing particular terrorists.
russ_watters
Mar28-03, 01:43 AM
I have to totally, utterly, disagree. Just a question for you guys that think this -- are you basing this just on vague media reports, or on Moslems you know? Half my family is Moslem (and living in Iran to boot), and I run into lots of other Persians and Arabs around here. Islam is not a violent religion! Damgo, reread my post. You completely and utterly missed my point.
I said explicitly that I do not believe the vast majority of muslims are violent. What I said is:the violent ones are in charge
Russ, that wasn't directed at you... I just pulled that quote without looking. Mainly I have noticed a general trend by some Americans to think Islam is inherently violent; which is unfortunately understandable if your main contact with Islam is hearing Saddam or Hamas calling for martyrdom. I beat this drum to try and get a better picture across; I'm not trying to accuse anyone.
sir-pinski
Mar28-03, 05:22 AM
Originally posted by LURCH
So I'm afraid that, with regard to the question:
Originally posted by Laser Eyes
"What is that we did that could have made someone hate us so much to want to do this to us?"
the answer is, "We exist". [/B]
Or perhaps certain western actions persuade these people to become fundamentalists. A lot of resentment can be generated this way. How would you feel if a large country simply threw it's weight around just to get what it wants without considering you. This has happened numerous times through history (in the US as well as other countries) and always causes problems.
A potential future problem of this nature is the contract awarded to a US company to run the port at Umm Qasr instead of local Iraqi workers. How much resentment do you think this will generate?
Also remember that the US is not the only one targeted, by terrorism - the UK, France and Germany have also been in the firing line.
Greetings !
Originally posted by LURCH
Would anyone have an idea as to how much of the Arab or Muslim world is of this persuasion? From things I've seen in recent years, it would appear to be a very large segment, perhaps even the majority?
There's a wonderful invention called television -
use it(and I'm not talking about these times in
particular).
Look at their countries and societies. If it were
not for their oil and the money they get from it
for many decades. If it were not for the USSR
that supported them militarily, scientificly/
educationaly and financialy because of their oil
and because they were seen as allies
against the west. If it were not for their oil
and connected external influences they'd be
in a much worse situation than those "3d world"
countries in Africa. In fact, I'm pretty sure that
the africans, given the same treatment, could've
had a well developed continent by now.
If their oil ended in the next few years as some
predict is possible they will totally collapse.
Ever seen their non-religous population segments ?
I haven't. Every friday they all go and listen
and guess what they're told...
Live long and prosper.
sir-pinski
Mar28-03, 06:06 AM
Originally posted by drag
Ever seen their non-religous population segments ?
I haven't. Every friday they all go and listen
and guess what they're told...
Separate the actions of people from the religion. Was the Christian faith (not the religious institution) or for that matter the Bible to blame for the Witch Hunts or for the Spanish Inquisition? Just because someone does something terrible in the name of religion doesn't mean the religion is the problem.
Greetings !
Originally posted by sir-pinski
Was the Christian faith (not the religious institution) or for that matter the Bible to blame for the Witch Hunts or for the Spanish Inquisition?
You forgot the main part - the Crusades.
Nevertheless, those were different times. In the
modern world people are (supposed to be) more
"inlighted".
Originally posted by sir-pinski
...doesn't mean the religion is the problem.
In my personal view - ANY religion is a problem.
But, then again, look at some of the religions
in eastern asia. They seem to prove both you and
me wrong. Not only that they include no violence
whatsoever unlike Islam and never had violent
followers, they also value the kind of values
that I think many people should follow.(Although
the God/gods part is always in the way -
maybe if it were reformed to "optimal for the
human mind behaviour mode" or something.)
Live long and prosper.
sir-pinski
Mar28-03, 07:19 AM
Originally posted by drag
You forgot the main part - the Crusades.
Nevertheless, those were different times. In the
modern world people are (supposed to be) more
"inlighted".
That was also on my mind but I decided to quote some more non-typical examples. As far as people today being more "enlighted" well that's pretty much out the window I think. There are a number of western countries who suffer from problems now due to or in the name of religion which seem perfectly reasonable to the individuals responsible.
Originally posted by drag
But, then again, look at some of the religions
in eastern asia. They seem to prove both you and
me wrong. Not only that they include no violence
whatsoever unlike Islam and never had violent
followers, they also value the kind of values
that I think many people should follow.(Although
the God/gods part is always in the way -
maybe if it were reformed to "optimal for the
human mind behaviour mode" or something.)
Well I have to admit I quite like a lot of the ideas in the eastern religions. Perhaps these are exception to the rule. I don't know much of the history to these faiths so I can't really comment. I am a bit weary though of the mysticism aspects of these religions although you do get this in almost every faith. That said you're probably right - let's all become Zen Buddhists [;)]
Originally posted by sir-pinski
I don't know much of the history to these faiths...
Ooops... Now that WAS bloody, indeed.
Purhaps, what is required at the basis of
a peaceful religion is an ancient war - to
keep the "evil" in sight. [;)]
Live long and prosper.
sir-pinski
Mar28-03, 07:56 AM
This probably is necessary and may be the problem with the relatively newer faiths i.e. they are not old enough yet. However I'd rather not have a big ancient stylee war going on whilst I'm around. It's not good for my health [:D]
What about Taoism? Anybody know the roots to this?
Originally posted by damgo
I have to totally, utterly, disagree. Just a question for you guys that think this -- are you basing this just on vague media reports, or on Moslems you know? Half my family is Moslem (and living in Iran to boot), and I run into lots of other Persians and Arabs around here. Islam is not a violent religion! It has its fair share of fanatics, and even mainstream Moslem leaders love to call on God and martyrdom to support their pet conflicts; but that doesn't mean much.
Well..aren't there fairly large differences between Iranian(also non-arabic) moslems and the moslem religions of arabic countries? I've never really delved into the Iranian peoples "physcological" mindset but considering they don't even speak the same language....
Also, I believe any ideal can become violent if harnessed correctly, not just god based ideals..and I believe anyone who follows the media in many ME Arabic countries must admit that these ideals are definately being harnessed to incite violence and hatred.
My children are first generation Arab/American and I too have personal connections to the Arabic world..I have heard some extremely bizarre and prejudicial beliefs, I have read these repeatedly in mainstream arabic media...So, there is a dangerous combination of idealistic religious based fervor, race prejudice, media instigated hatred that falls upon, in many cases either young impressionable and educated minds or..on the other end of the spectrum the uneducated but just as easily impressed.
In countries where the government influences and in most cases controls the media..one has to question whether the media is reflective of the peoples beliefs or if the peoples beliefs are reflective of what the media is educating them to believe. Of course then again, if you delve into what is being taught the children in many ME arabic countries schools..you again see these hate based myths being instilled in young minds.
For me the big question is, who profits from this? It's obviously NOT the common people of these countries..it's obviously not those who are the brunt of their hatred..so that leaves who?
I apologize for the rambling nature of my post, I'm just putting forth my own insights.
Originally posted by sir-pinski
What about Taoism? Anybody know the roots to this?
1 : a Chinese mystical philosophy traditionally founded by Lao-tzu in the 6th century B.C. that teaches conformity to the Tao by unassertive action and simplicity.
2 : a religion developed from Taoist philosophy and folk and Buddhist religion and concerned with obtaining long life and good fortune often by magical means
russ_watters
Mar28-03, 10:01 AM
Russ, that wasn't directed at you... I just pulled that quote without looking. Mainly I have noticed a general trend by some Americans to think Islam is inherently violent; which is unfortunately understandable if your main contact with Islam is hearing Saddam or Hamas calling for martyrdom. I beat this drum to try and get a better picture across; I'm not trying to accuse anyone. Fair enough.
One thing though: what about the Moral Imperative? The Moral Imperative states that if you see a moral injustice being comitted and you have the power to stop it, you are bound by your morality to do so. I realize thats easier said than done, but regardless, it doesn't make the average Joe muslim a moral person if he doesn't openly object (at the very least) to the violence of his leaders.
A clearer (more extreme) example (the usual one): Nazi Germany. Were the majority of Germans violent/evil people? I doubt it. Did they understand what their government was doing was as evil as evil gets in this world? Probably. That they didn't attempt to stop it (most of them) makes them complicit.
Peaceful muslims need to step up and take control of their religion. It would appear that that is happening in Iran. But thats a rarity.
Or perhaps certain western actions persuade these people to become fundamentalists. A lot of resentment can be generated this way. How would you feel if a large country simply threw it's weight around just to get what it wants without considering you. This has happened numerous times through history (in the US as well as other countries) and always causes problems. One problem with that thesis - the US throws its weight around EVERYWHERE. And this doesn't cause hatred everywhere - only in some places. Germans and Frenchies disagree with us (pretty srongly) right now but they aren't flying airplanes into buildngs. WHY? Their disagreement is purely political (and economic). Islamic extremist hatred for the US is that plus religious, cultural, and racial. Those last 3 differences are where the hatred comes from - and there is nothing we can do to change that.
Just because someone does something terrible in the name of religion doesn't mean the religion is the problem. Its not that simple. Sometimes it is impossible to separate the religion from the actions being taken in the name of the reigion. Untl Martin Luther, the Catholic Church WAS christianity and it was horribly corrupt. It was not possible to go against the Catholic church and still be a christian.
Maybe we need a Muslim Martin Luther?
sir-pinski
Mar28-03, 11:10 AM
Originally posted by russ_watters
One problem with that thesis - the US throws its weight around EVERYWHERE. And this doesn't cause hatred everywhere - only in some places. Germans and Frenchies disagree with us (pretty srongly) right now but they aren't flying airplanes into buildngs. WHY? Their disagreement is purely political (and economic).
Well I think it's a bit stronger than just strong disagreement at the moment. From what I have seen there is a growing resentment for the US, it's policies and cultural attitudes. It's not just the "frenchies" and the germans either. Anti-US sentiment is heavily on the increase in the UK and a large number of other countries which were previously quite close to the US. This is not just a war thing either, this has been on the increase for several years.
Originally posted by russ_watters
Its not that simple. Sometimes it is impossible to separate the religion from the actions being taken in the name of the reigion. Untl Martin Luther, the Catholic Church WAS christianity...
Only in certain countries.
russ_watters
Mar28-03, 03:16 PM
Well I think it's a bit stronger than just strong disagreement at the moment. From what I have seen there is a growing resentment for the US, it's policies and cultural attitudes. It's not just the "frenchies" and the germans either. Anti-US sentiment is heavily on the increase in the UK and a large number of other countries which were previously quite close to the US. This is not just a war thing either, this has been on the increase for several years. Thats my point!! With all this anti-american sentiment, is a war likely between Germany and the US? Terrorism? Not even remotely possible. WHY!!!???? Because our disagreements are only political and economic, not racial, religious, and cultural.
well no one suggested that this would insight Germans to become terrorists anyway russ.
Originally posted by kyleb
well no one suggested that this would insight Germans to become terrorists anyway russ.
But it has been suggested that this is what causes middle eastern muslims to become terrorists. What Russ seems to be saying is that these social differences must not be the true cause because if they were, they would insiight Germans (or the French, or whomever had these same grievances).
well we are just having disagreements with the Germans at the moment, it is not like we have been oppressing them almost constantly for nearly a millennium.
I think that one reason terrorism sprouts in the Arab and Muslim world is that there is no other vent for dissatisfaction. There is no political freedom. About the only two things one is free to express are one's faith, and anti-Westernism. Dissatisfaction with your government is not healthy to express.
Njorl
Originally posted by Njorl
I think that one reason terrorism sprouts in the Arab and Muslim world is that there is no other vent for dissatisfaction. There is no political freedom. About the only two things one is free to express are one's faith, and anti-Westernism. Dissatisfaction with your government is not healthy to express.
Indeed. You have a point there Njorl.
Live long and prosper.
Originally posted by Njorl
I think that one reason terrorism sprouts in the Arab and Muslim world is that there is no other vent for dissatisfaction. There is no political freedom. About the only two things one is free to express are one's faith, and anti-Westernism. Dissatisfaction with your government is not healthy to express.
Njorl
Ah com'on guys..this is true in part...but who would they focus on if they weren't encouraged by their media and schoolbooks to hate the evil U.S. and those blood sucking jews? Ooops, could it be they'd lash out at their own (put numerous appropriate adjectives here) rulers?
What is the value of creating an enemy for your restless and dissatisfied subjects to focus their anger on? priceless?
Originally posted by kat
What is the value of creating an enemy for your restless and dissatisfied subjects to focus their anger on? priceless?
well i think it is worthless, i just wish i could convince people like you of that. [:(]
Originally posted by kyleb
well i think it is worthless, i just wish i could convince people like you of that. [:(]
Well, give up..you'll never convince people like me..that is if you even have the insight to grasp what type of people I am.
It's certainly not worthless ..in fact I dare say it's rather costly, probably in more ways then your limited self hating american type persona allows for..but it is indeed worth something and those that profit hugely by creating hatred aren't just the pastie faced anglo saxon's sitting on the front stoop of corporate america that you and your tunnel vision are entirely consumed with.
you must be talking to someone other than me considering i don't have a "self hating" issue, or tunnel vision for that matter.
Originally posted by kyleb
well we are just having disagreements with the Germans at the moment, it is not like we have been oppressing them almost constantly for nearly a millennium.
And we have been constantly oppressing the Arabs? How did we oppress them back before this country existed ("nearly a millenium")?
well that would be our European ancestors i am referring to there.
Greetings !
Originally posted by kat
What is the value of creating an enemy for your restless and dissatisfied subjects to focus their anger on?
priceless?
Indeed.
Originally posted by kyleb
well i think it is worthless, i just wish i could convince people like you of that.[:(]
Originally posted by kat
It's certainly not worthless ..in fact I dare say it's rather costly, probably in more ways then your limited self hating american type persona allows for..
[:D]
Indeed.
(And, no offense, but you don't exactly need a
phsycology PhD to figure that out kyleb...[;)])
Live long and prosper.
Nicool003
Mar30-03, 06:34 PM
I know this is way off topic but drag I notice that in your last few post you seem to be favoring the word "indeed"
Indeed [;)]
Nicool003
Mar30-03, 06:40 PM
sorry to bring this up again but I was horrified when I saw this
i am talking about the similarities between wiping out gangs who you don't get along with and religions you don't get along with.
They aren't similar Kyle! How can you evem SAY that?!?! Religions= peaceful group of people that believe in a common thing. Gangs= group of crap heads that do drugs and other illegal things. HOW CAN YOU EVEN COMPARE THEM?
argh Nicool003, i don't think you would understand no matter how much effort i put into anwsering your question. [s(]
russ_watters
Mar30-03, 11:45 PM
But it has been suggested that this is what causes middle eastern muslims to become terrorists. What Russ seems to be saying is that these social differences must not be the true cause because if they were, they would insiight Germans (or the French, or whomever had these same grievances). Yes, thats exactly what I was getting at.
well we are just having disagreements with the Germans at the moment, it is not like we have been oppressing them almost constantly for nearly a millennium. well that would be our European ancestors i am referring to there. Kyle, that just doesn't fit. Clearly the hatred coming from the middle east is focused on the US and Israel. And its only the past 50 years.
oh come on, that is the current hot topic; but even if you do want to forget history, there still are many people who do not.
Originally posted by Alias
Not all people are good, just because they are human. Some people are bad. Some people have no consideration for their fellow humans and never will. These people are best left alone. Unfortunately, sometimes these people wish to impose their will on you, your friends or your family. When this happens, it is necessary to act. And yes sometimes when you act, it is like agitating a hornets nest. Things sometimes become more difficult. But that's life. You deal with the threat, absorb your loses, and move on.
Of course, when dealing with dangerous human beings, you have a couple of options. One method is to imprison, rehabilitate, and then release. Another is to kill. Sometimes the former is not effective. That leaves us with the latter. Sadam, his followers, and every anti-western terrorist falls under the last category. The best thing that can be done, for the sake of humanity, is to kill these people. I know it sounds harsh, but it is the only viable alternative. And thats how all the bloody wars in history have been justified. They're evil. They're not like us. They're so bad. We're so good. Kill them.
Unfortunately, the same lines can be used for the other party too. To incite them to kill you.
Us vs. them. Our innate xenophobia and ethnocentrism. Human nature.
Earlier it was to one of the wandering tribes of hunter-gatherers that you pledged allegiance to. Now its a piece of land in which you (or your ancestors) happened to be born in. " My country, right or wrong ".
Or rather ... " This piece of land with artificial borders, in which my ancestors happened to be born in. I am prepared to die for this piece of land and kill all those who happened to have ancestors born in other pieces of land bordered by other artificial boundaries. "
Patriotism is as dangerous a religion as Islam or Christianity. Because, like them, it is also based on nothing real. An outcome of our cavemen environments. Our brains are still very much in the stone age.
The US government has always been particularly successfull at doing this. They sell patriotism like soaps and shampoo. And the people (some of them, at least) lap it up. No wonder, because it appeals to their natures. Its nice to think of the world as being delineated into clear blacks and whites. Like in the movies. The good men and the bad men. The good men always end up killing the bad and what better justification for that than the "fact" that they're bad - oh, so bad, completely evil. Evil Commies. Evil Saddam. Good Americans.
Black and white.
I wish life and human nature were that simple.
- S.
russ_watters
Mar31-03, 02:28 PM
Siv, you are close but you have one major error in your operating premise:xenophobia and ethnocentrism Your definition of patriotism is incorrect. Patriotism is simply love of your country. It is not blind and it is not exclusionary. What you are describing is NATIONALISM and though similar to patriotism, it is essentially a dead concept in the western world. The death of nationalism is the reason the western world isn't fighting internally anymore. Certainly some of the elements of nationalism such as xenophobia and ethnocentrism still exist, but to a much more limited extent than say in 1938.
Originally posted by Siv
[B]And thats how all the bloody wars in history have been justified. They're evil. They're not like us. They're so bad. We're so good. Kill them.
You forgot the part about how they want to kill us.
I wish that we could separate the world into two groups. One group could be the group that wants to kill everyone and everything related to western culture. The other group would be the "I'm cool, if you're cool" group. Then we could begin to kill the people in the "We want to kill the west" group, one at a time, giving each one of them a chance to abondon their hate.
What you fail to understand is that as long as nobody bugs me while I'm eating, I'm easy to get along with. Live and let live. Do your own thing, man. You know what I mean?
911 taught me that there are some out there that have no regard for my life, PERSONALLY, and that they would like to kill me even though they don't know me. As far as I know, I was in the trailer park that day working on my truck. I didn't oppress anyone. I didn't murder anyone. I didn't force my ideology down anyones throat. What the fucck did I do to these people? NOTHING! Yet they want to kill me.
So my response is... Kill them first. Kill their friends, kill their families. Kill anyone with similar ideas. Sure there's lots of people on the list, but we just got started. There's plenty of time to abandon hate. I hope they get the message before it's too late.
All I wanted to do was drink a couple of beers and work on my truck. Now I have to start killing people. How do you think that makes me feel?
Nicool003
Apr1-03, 03:43 PM
argh Nicool003, i don't think you would understand no matter how much effort i put into anwsering your question.
What do you mean? Oh wait nevermind now I get it. Your racist or something. Or maybe you realized your wrong! Yes that must be it.
nope, thats two srikes for you. [:D]
Originally posted by Alias
You forgot the part about how they want to kill us.
I wish that we could separate the world into two groups. One group could be the group that wants to kill everyone and everything related to western culture. The other group would be the "I'm cool, if you're cool" group. Then we could begin to kill the people in the "We want to kill the west" group, one at a time, giving each one of them a chance to abondon their hate.
What you fail to understand is that as long as nobody bugs me while I'm eating, I'm easy to get along with. Live and let live. Do your own thing, man. You know what I mean?
911 taught me that there are some out there that have no regard for my life, PERSONALLY, and that they would like to kill me even though they don't know me. As far as I know, I was in the trailer park that day working on my truck. I didn't oppress anyone. I didn't murder anyone. I didn't force my ideology down anyones throat. What the fucck did I do to these people? NOTHING! Yet they want to kill me.
So my response is... Kill them first. Kill their friends, kill their families. Kill anyone with similar ideas. Sure there's lots of people on the list, but we just got started. There's plenty of time to abandon hate. I hope they get the message before it's too late.
All I wanted to do was drink a couple of beers and work on my truck. Now I have to start killing people. How do you think that makes me feel?
Indeed. [:))]
russ_watters
Apr1-03, 04:43 PM
You forgot the part about how they want to kill us. Yeah, thats kinda a deal breaker for me too, Alias. Until they acknowledge that I have a right to exist, there should be no negotiations.
If they had asked us for help solving their problems, rather than trying to kill us, things might be different.
It could be that due to their oppression, they are unaware of the mechanisms behind their oppression.
I think that a reasonable response, as a Superpower democracy, might be to send out a message to these oppressive regimes something like this...
"Stop treating your people like SH1T, or we're going to kick your ***."
That should be clear enough. But will it be effective?
Originally posted by Alias
If they had asked us for help solving their problems, rather than trying to kill us, things might be different.
It could be that due to their oppression, they are unaware of the mechanisms behind their oppression.
I think that a reasonable response, as a Superpower democracy, might be to send out a message to these oppressive regimes something like this...
"Stop treating your people like SH1T, or we're going to kick your ***."
That should be clear enough. But will it be effective?
After this campaign, I think the chances are growing...[;)]
DrChinese
Apr2-03, 01:27 AM
Originally posted by Galatea
I love how the "liberals" are always advocating peace but never offering any viable alternatives. Do you honestly believe if we love Saddam enough and send some white doves flying over Iraq things will be ok? Zero, do you have any bright ideas about what could be done?
Because all I've seen from people who think like you is a few semi-hostile (and pointless) protests about the war which did nothing but give people without jobs something to do and waste even more government money.
I do support the war because I think the US is going about things fairly carefully - I wouldn't condone a straight bombing, but I'm sick of liberals doing _nothing_ but whining and worshipping Tom Daschle.
Many liberals do not think anything needs to done to contain Saddam over and above what was already in place before we invaded. That is a specific alternative, and much of the rest of the world agree with the "liberals". Oh, and being against the war does not exactly make someone a liberal.
Originally posted by russ_watters
Siv, you are close but you have one major error in your operating premise: Your definition of patriotism is incorrect. Patriotism is simply love of your country. It is not blind and it is not exclusionary. What you are describing is NATIONALISM and though similar to patriotism, it is essentially a dead concept in the western world. The death of nationalism is the reason the western world isn't fighting internally anymore. Certainly some of the elements of nationalism such as xenophobia and ethnocentrism still exist, but to a much more limited extent than say in 1938. Human nature has not changed, Russ. It takes tens of thousands of years to do so ... and this new environment (democracy, fundamental rights etc ..) is but a few centuries old.
The us vs. them is still very much there. But now its been polished and made up to be called by the euphemism "patriotism". Why the hell should I love some piece of land just because a certain set of my ancestors were born there ? ITs ridiculous ??
I pay taxes and agree to certain legal rules to live there and enjoy whatever infrastructure the government provides me with. Thats all. What else is needed ??
If we go further back in time, we all originated from the same place in Africa. Then we spread out from there.
If you go further back, maybe the first mammals originated from another place, the first vertebrates from some other place ... and the first life (the arbitrary dividing line again) in yet another place. Which is our country ?? Does it even make sense to call any piece of land that ??
Why should I pledge allegiance to India or Canada or UK ? I live in India and pay taxes and follow the legal laws here. But its ridiculous to expect me to feel "love" for this piece of land and "hatred" for other pieces of land. IT makes absolutely no sense. A Canadian lady is no different from me except in superficial stuff like dress, skin colour, language etc. Why should I prefer another Indian homo sapien to a Canadian one ... or an Iraqi one ... or a Pakistani one ?
Dividing up the entire human population into regions might make sense for better administration, but to start believing that this demarkation is absolute ... is crazy !!
Thats like an organization where the Marketing dept starts thinking that the Finance Dept is fundamentally different.
- S.
Originally posted by Alias
You forgot the part about how they want to kill us. I did not forget your assertion. I asked for evidence (objective) of the same. That the USA wanted to kill IRaqis is something we had objective evidence for all along. The US started moving in their troops long before the weapons inspection and have said so multiple times that whatever be the outcome of the inspection, they'll attack !
As Jay Leno said ... " "Iraq began destroying those missiles they don't have over the weekend.
See, President Bush may be the smartest military president in history.
First, he gets Iraq to destroy all of their own weapons. Then, he declares war."
There is zero objective evidence that the Iraqis wanted to kill you. And yet you declared war on them.
see, you're powerful and want a fight ... thats ok (its not, but noone can stop you!) ... but dont give us this sanctimonious bull****. Everyone knows what this war is all about. We're not blind.
- S.
We are at war with terrorists. The presumption that we think that Iraq is full of terrorists is absurd. Saddam's regime, on the other hand, is the very definition of 'terrorism'. If you can't see that, you might want to pay more attention.
The idea that this means that everything we do is designed to kill terrorists is simply ridiculous. While killing the ones that exist is fine by me, that doesn't solve the underlying problem. The underlying problem is that terrorists are born out of oppression. And this oppression comes, mostly, from their governments. So the most effective method of solving the problem is to change their governments.
BoulderHead
Apr2-03, 10:43 AM
For some reason this reminds me of a song by Randy Newman.
Lyrics to "Political Science";
No one likes us
I don't know why.
We may not be perfect
But heaven knows we try.
But all around even our old friends put us down.
Let's drop the big one and see what happens.
We give them money
But are they grateful?
No they're spiteful
And they're hateful.
They don't respect us so let's surprise them;
We'll drop the big one and pulverize them.
Now Asia's crowded
And Europe's too old.
Africa's far too hot,
And Canada's too cold.
And South America stole our name.
Let's drop the big one; there'll be no one left to blame us.
Bridge:
We'll save Australia;
Don't wanna hurt no kangaroo.
We'll build an all-American amusement park there;
They've got surfing, too.
Well, boom goes London,
And boom Paree.
More room for you
And more room for me.
And every city the whole world round
Will just be another American town.
Oh, how peaceful it'll be;
We'll set everybody free;
You'll have Japanese kimonos, baby,
There'll be Italian shoes for me.
They all hate us anyhow,
So let's drop the big one now.
Let's drop the big one now.
russ_watters
Apr2-03, 01:26 PM
But now its been polished and made up to be called by the euphemism "patriotism". Why the hell should I love some piece of land just because a certain set of my ancestors were born there ?....But its ridiculous to expect me to feel "love" for this piece of land and "hatred" for other pieces of land. Siv, again, thats *NOT* patriotism, thats *NATIONALISM.* Patriotism has nothing to do with a chunk of land and it has nothing to do with hate. PLEASE look it up. This is a good start:
Patriotism is love for country and desire to defend and promote its well-being; Nationalism is the exaltation of one country OVER another.
http://weekly.china-forum.org/CCF96/ccf9650/ccf9650-4.html
There is zero objective evidence that the Iraqis wanted to kill you. You mean besides chanting "death to america" and "kill the infidels," right?
Hmmmm....good points from everyone...keep it cool, ok?
Originally posted by russ_watters
Siv, again, thats *NOT* patriotism, thats *NATIONALISM.* Patriotism has nothing to do with a chunk of land and it has nothing to do with hate. PLEASE look it up. This is a good start:
Ok, this is funny [:)]
Lets take your definition apart piece by piece, shall we ??
" Patriotism is love for country and desire to defend and promote its well-being; Nationalism is the exaltation of one country OVER another. "
Loving your country, right ? What exactly are you loving here ? Not the piece of land, you say. So what exactly are you loving ? The people ? So when you say love your country, you mean love Americans ? Why specify that except to differentiate against other country people ? If you love all human beings, why do you have to specify the country bit ?
Ok now coming to the "defend and promote its well-being" bit. Defend from what ?? When you use the word "defend", it always means "defend against" another.
And "promote" is again a promoting over another. If people wanted all countries to do well, no one would talk about promoting one.
Patriotism and nationalism are fundamentally the same thing.
You cannot support one country in a vaccuum. You have to support it against others. Promote it over others, defend it against others. The "against" component is built in into patriotism.
- S.
Originally posted by Alias
We are at war with terrorists. The presumption that we think that Iraq is full of terrorists is absurd. Saddam's regime, on the other hand, is the very definition of 'terrorism'. If you can't see that, you might want to pay more attention.
The idea that this means that everything we do is designed to kill terrorists is simply ridiculous. While killing the ones that exist is fine by me, that doesn't solve the underlying problem. The underlying problem is that terrorists are born out of oppression. And this oppression comes, mostly, from their governments. So the most effective method of solving the problem is to change their governments. Enough of assertions, Alias. Show me some objective evidence.
- S.
Originally posted by Siv
Enough of assertions, Alias. Show me some objective evidence.
- S.
Which of the following do you need more objective evidence of...
1. We are at war with terrorists.
2. The presumption that we think that Iraq is full of terrorists is absurd.
3. Saddam's regime... is the very definition of 'terrorism'.
4. The idea that this means that everything we do is designed to kill terrorists is simply ridiculous.
5. ... that(killing terrorists) doesn't solve the underlying problem.
6. The underlying problem is that terrorists are born out of oppression.
7. And this oppression(that terrorists are born out of) comes, mostly, from their governments.
8. So the most effective method of solving the problem is to change their(oppressive) governments.
This is just how I see the world. I could be wrong. Maybe my genetic tendency to rip the throats out of those that threaten my well being is clouding my view. I think I might need some gene therapy. I'm considering crossing myself with that gay microsoft butterfly.[:D]
Greetings !
Originally posted by Alias
8. So the most effective method of solving the problem is to change their(oppressive) governments.
The strange thing about is that they are
so used to it and so "unsmart" that some of them
actually seem to like being opressed, at least
while it happens. They are brainwashed and
convinced that their bad lives are the doing
of the evil non-muslims from other countries.
That is of course ridiculous... but it is the case.
Even amongst parts of the populatioin in countries
like Baharein and Cuwait. Not even mentioning
the other countries in the region where they
have a consensus over this.
Originally posted by Alias
This is just how I see the world. I could be wrong. Maybe my genetic tendency to rip the throats out of those that threaten my well being is clouding my view. I think I might need some gene therapy.
Nope, I think your genes are quite fine... [;)]
Live long and prosper.
russ_watters
Apr3-03, 03:42 PM
Originally posted by drag
some of them actually seem to like being opressed, at least
while it happens. They are brainwashed and convinced that their bad lives are the doing of the evil non-muslims from other countries.
That is of course ridiculous... but it is the case.
Drag, I refuse to accept that starving people would actually enjoy starvation and the families of murdered dissidents enjoy the deaths of their family members. Certainly they may be so brainwashed they don't know where the oppression is coming from, but I can't believe they don't think they are being oppressed.
Originally posted by russ_watters
Drag, I refuse to accept that starving people would actually enjoy starvation and the families of murdered dissidents enjoy the deaths of their family members. Certainly they may be so brainwashed they don't know where the oppression is coming from, but I can't believe they don't think they are being oppressed.
It could easily be something like Stockholm syndrome on a massive scale. For the last 12 years, all food and all medicine came from Saddam Hussein for many people. While he is also the source of cruelty, even that works in his favor. Every day that he does not kill someone is another day that he has given them life.
Njorl
russ_watters
Apr3-03, 04:02 PM
Originally posted by Njorl
It could easily be something like Stockholm syndrome on a massive scale....Every day that he does not kill someone is another day that he has given them life.
Njorl I'll certainly grant you that, but with one caveat - he DOES kill dissidents and innocent civilians on a daily basis. Not a lot of time for Stockholm syndrome to take hold. Stockholm syndrome depends on the kidnapper NOT harming you.
I thought that "they really all want to be like us, but just don't quite know it yet" attitude had died out... guess not. Nobody likes being oppressed, pretty much by definition.
Pretty much everyone in Iraq hates Saddam: he truly is brutal, and there are coup attempts all the time. The Republican Guard is used to keep the army in line, but Saddam doesn't even trust them enough to let them inside Baghdad! (until the invasion started, at least) And that's his army.
Problem is, many Iraqis see this not a liberation, but as an attack on Iraq.... "Saddam may not be popular in Iraq, but he's running against George Bush."
http://www.oregonlive.com/news/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/front_page/1048770098290210.xml
http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0402-01.htm
Hmm...
I guess the "like being opressed" part didn't
quite come out the way I meant it and it wasn't
aimed at Iraq in particular, such violent rule
fits that a lot less than other countries in
the region. I appologize for being unclear.
Live long and prosper.
Originally posted by damgo
I thought that "they really all want to be like us, but just don't quite know it yet" attitude had died out... guess not.
They want to be exactly like us, in that all they really want to do is go to work so they can provide for their families without having a boot on their neck.
Problem is, many Iraqis see this not a liberation, but as an attack on Iraq.... "Saddam may not be popular in Iraq, but he's running against George Bush."
That is supposition. The interviews with civilians that are beginning to come out of Iraq point to the opposite of your statement.
http://www.oregonlive.com/news/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/front_page/1048770098290210.xml
I should have known even before I clicked. The word 'Oregon' in the URL should have tipped me off. That sad retired general is spewing the same tired liberal non-arguments that have been coming out of Hollywood. "What about North Korea? They already have nuclear weapons!!!" they shriek.
This is real simple to understand. Let me use an analogy...
This dog has rabies. That dog doesn't but is about to eat some rabies infected meat. What do you do?
If that's too hard to figure out, I suggest you retreat, regroup, and try again, because you just aren't ready for prime-time.
http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0402-01.htm
I simply can not beleive that someone would willingly read the same tired argument, and believe that it had merit, after all that has gone on.
That is supposition. The interviews with civilians that are beginning to come out of Iraq point to the opposite of your statement.Yeah, it is. I've been trying to read as much as I can and get a picture of the sentiment in Iraq through all the spin, but it's hard. It seems like most Iraqis hate Saddam, don't like being invaded and attacked, but would be willing to put up with a lot to get rid of Saddam, and won't be terribly angry at the USA IF we get them food and aid quickly, set up a good government, and then get the hell out. It doesn't seem like there's much faith in this last though.
I know that argument is invalid, but there's a difference between thinking that dealing with NK is more urgent/important than dealing with Iraq, and the usual "oh yeah, well what about NK?" you just shot down. :)
IMO McPeak is a bright guy... lot of good stuff in that article. And he's certainly not a liberal! He broke tradition to campaign for Bush in the last election.
You're right. If we don't get out of there fast, all this moralizing could be for nothing. People will see US as same old same old.
Alias, teh only real difference between you and me is your optimism and trust in the Bush administration. You very often agree that what I think is going to happen is not good...you simply choose to believe that the bad things won't happen.
Frightening isn't it?[:D]
Originally posted by Alias
Frightening isn't it?[:D]
Yeah...if you would get rid of about 50% of your hostility towards us dissenters, your points would come across 100% better.
Nicool003
Apr5-03, 01:53 PM
I have to say that if that is the only difference that is scary.[;)]
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