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Lubos Motl
Sep21-04, 08:02 PM
<jabberwocky><div class="vbmenu_control"><a href="jabberwocky:;" onClick="newWindow=window.open('','usenetCode','toolbar=no, location=no,scrollbars=yes,resizable=yes,status=no ,width=650,height=400'); newWindow.document.write('<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Usenet ASCII</TITLE></HEAD><BODY topmargin=0 leftmargin=0 BGCOLOR=#F1F1F1><table border=0 width=625><td bgcolor=midnightblue><font color=#F1F1F1>This Usenet message\'s original ASCII form: </font></td></tr><tr><td width=449><br><br><font face=courier><UL><PRE>Quantization without quantization - prejudices and reality\n========================================= =================\n\nLet me just write some additional comments about this mode of thinking\nthat I claim underlies LQG. Let me also write at the beginning that I am\nconvinced that every sentence below labeled by "LQG" is deeply flawed and\nexplanations will be given at the end.\n\nLQG meta-axiom I: Whatever is true for a classical theory T must also be\ntrue for its quantization Q(T). Quantization is a bijective functor that\nrelates objects on both sides by a one-to-one correspondence.\n\nLQG theorem II: We should always look for quantization Q(T) for any\ninteresting theory T. Q(T) always exists.\n\nLQG corollary IIa: The most interesting generalization of quantum\nmechanics is the search for a Hilbert space and operators corresponding to\na given classical phase space. The direction of progress is to consider\nincreasingly complicated phase spaces.\n\nLQG corollary IIb: The most interesting parts of physics are the tools\n(e.g. choice of variables) how to perform the quantization; they are more\nimportant than the ability of the theories to predict and the results\nthemselves. Examples of these tools are Ashtekar\'s variables, spin\nnetworks, and spin foam.\n\nLQG corollary IIc: Unusual properties of a quantum theory - such as\nnon-separable Hilbert space; non-existence of a path-integral formulation;\nabsence of doable (e.g. perturbative) calculations (of the S-matrix) do\nnot constitute a problem as long as the theory can be called Q(T) - which\nis the most important thing.\n\nLQG implication III: A quantum theory is as interesting as its classical\ncounterpart. An interesting quantum theory can only be obtained by\nquantizing a classical theory.\n\nLQG corollary IIIa: A direct quantization of pure GR should be attempted,\ndespite failures, because GR is a nice and simple classical theory.\n\nLQG corollary IV: A classical theory T has nice and transparent relations\nbetween the observable. Its quantization Q(T) should therefore have nice\nrelations between the observables, too.\n\nLQG corollary IVa: Nonzero anomalies are impossible. This includes the\ncentral extensions of the algebra, such as the central charge of a CFT.\nOne should assume that they are zero, and only look for a proof\n(representation) of this assumption.\n\nLQG corollary IVb: Ultraviolet divergences are impossible, too.\n\nLQG corollary IVc: The non-renormalizable divergences can only appear if\nthe quantization Q(T) is done incorrectly.\n\nLQG corollary IVd (optional): The uncertainty principle must be incorrect\nbecause it destroys the nice relations between the observables.\n\nOK, let\'s stop with the LQG crap now.\n\nReality I. A quantum theory is the most radical transformation of the\nconcepts of physics that we have seen so far, and it implies a lot of new\nand unexpected phenomena. The classical intuition is often incorrect in\nthe quantum world, and no one-to-one correspondence exists. Quantum\nmechanics defines new rules which theory are predictive, interesting, and\nconsistent - rules whose majority is not contained in the classical limit.\n\nReality II. A classical theory often does not have a consistent quantum\ncounterpart. An attempt to quantize a theory is often spoiled by anomalies\nor non-renormalizable divergences. There are many interesting classical\ntheories (such as GR of Fermi\'s theory) that cannot be quantized. There\nare also many interesting quantum theories whose classical counterparts\nare not too interesting, for example because they are trivial\n(Chern-Simons theory). "Reality III" below offers more examples.\n\nReality IIa. General quantum mechanical systems with a Hamiltonian that is\nan arbitrary function on the phase space - which itself has an arbitrary\nshape and topology - have not been too important and interesting in\nobservable physics. Virtually every interesting application of quantum\nmechanics of point-like particles is based on wavefunctions on a\nwell-defined configuration space (x); the spectrum of the momentum\noperator is therefore easily calculable. The really interesting\nramifications of quantum mechanics involve different ideas than mixing of\nthe coordinates and the momenta and making the geometry of the space space\na bit more complicated. In useful applications, the coordinates and\nmomenta are kinematically decoupled, and one can view this fact as a\nnon-rigorous, simple version of a Coleman-Mandula-like theorem.\n\nThe phase spaces of complicated topology are not too revolutionary from\nanother reason: if they are small (small number of quantum states), the\nclassical-quantum link is too fuzzy and ambiguous. If they are large, on\nthe other hand, the "local" physics on the phase space reproduces physics\non infinite smooth phase space, and is therefore qualitatively understood.\n\nThe progress in physics in the last 70 years has been based on very\ndifferent ideas than convoluted phase spaces, especially the observed new\nways how relatively simple, "polynomial" systems of very well-defined\ndegrees of freedom can behave, and new local symmetries and their origin.\nThis includes gauge theories; Higgs mechanism; confinement; insights of\nthe renormalization group; generation of spacetime physics from the\nstringy worldsheet, and so on.\n\nReality IIb. In a consistent quantum theory with a classical limit, the\ndifferent procedures of quantization must be equivalent. A redefinition of\nvariables can help us to understand some phenomena, but it cannot make an\ninconsistent theory consistent. Finally, methods are only interesting if\nthey lead to interesting results, and a structure claimed to be Q(T) is\nnot necessarily an interesting result.\n\nReality IIc. A physically useful quantum theory must have a separable\nHilbert space - or at least the physically relevant sector must be\nseparable. A theory must be able to make some predictions that can be\nruled out, at least in principle. Whether or not a system of ideas can be\ncalled Q(T) for some classical theory T is not important physically. The\nnon-existence of the path-integral formulation or another usual approach\nto the theory indicates that the theory has some internal problems.\n\nReality III. The only success story in quantizing a known classical theory\nabove 1 dimension was QED. Electrodynamics was a classically studied\ntheory that happened to have a perturbatively consistent quantum\nextension. No other fundamental force is an example. Pure GR is\ninconsistent as a quantum theory. The weak sector of the electroweak\ntheory was found directly as a quantum theory; the virtual (quantum)\nW-bosons and the Z-bosons were proposed before the classical limit of the\nelectroweak theory (and physical, external gauge bosons, together with\ntheir vevs) were considered: another example in which the interesting\nquantum theory had to be found before its classical counterpart that is\nnot so interesting. Also, the equations of QCD were seriously proposed\nonly when it was known that the (quantum) beta function was negative and\nthe force was able to confine quarks and describe asymptotic freedom at\nhigh energies. The classical QCD was not an interesting theory either\nbecause it led to new, unobserved long-range forces, as Pauli proved\n(neglecting quantum mechanics in the field-theoretical context) in the\n1950s.\n\nThe question whether a quantum theory is interesting is largerly\nuncorrelated with the question whether its classical limit is interesting.\nExamples have been given in "Reality IIa". More generally, a quantum\ntheory is only interesting if it is predictive. It is very important for\nthe predictive power of a theory that a generic (high-order) interaction\nwould lead to inconsistencies in the UV. If it did not, infinitely many\ncoefficients would be undetermined. In consistent theories they can either\nbe neglected, or their coefficients\' smallness can be justified because\nthese are the irrelevant operators associated with new physics at much\nhigher scales, as the logic of the renormalization group dictates, and the\nsuper-high energy physics does not directly influence physics at\naccessible energies. A framework that would allow arbitrary couplings to\nbe added would imply a complete loss of predictive power. String theory is\nthe only known framework that constrains the parameters in a quantum\ntheory by mechanisms that go beyond the RG.\n\nThese are the physically relevant questions, the "landscape" of\ninteresting field theories is mapped by the Renormalization Group (RG),\nand these tools have nothing to do with the beauty of the classical limit.\n\nIncidentally, the beauty of a classical theory cannot be directly\nconnected with predictivity - because new, more complicated terms can\nessentially always be added - and therefore the "beauty" of a classical\ntheory is rather close to the subjective notion of simplicity whose direct\nphysical importance is very limited: a classical GR with R^2 terms is not\ninferior to the pure GR, except for purely subjective reasons. On the\nother hand, quantum physics of gravity gives a principle to label R^2 as\nthe less important term.\n\nOn the other hand, it is also believed that some interesting quantum\ntheories do not follow from a classical starting point. It is also known\nfor sure that a quantum theory can have several classical limits.\n\nReality IIIa: GR is an example of a non-renormalizable theory, and the\nproblematic UV behavior is a key to new physics that must regularize the\ndivergences. In the case of Fermi\'s theory, the UV completion turns out to\nbe essentially unique - a spontaneously broken gauge theory. General\ncovariance is as much constraining or more, and a UV completion must be\ntaken seriously. String theory is the only known solution how to generate\nconsistent loop (quantum) contributions to the scattering amplitudes.\n\nThe only special feature of GR is the general covariance, which is a\ngeneralization of gauge symmetries (with a spin greater by one). The\nstructure respecting this gauge symmetry is important for classical\ndecoupling of the unphysical modes - at the non-linear, multiparticle\nlevel - but it does not imply anything about the quantum loops of GR.\n\nReality IV: Quantum field theory implies that the observables do have\nshort distance divergences in their products. Algebras can acquire new\nterms that did not exist classically. This behavior can be measured in\nsome cases; in other cases it directly follows from a nonzero commutator\n(the uncertainty principle) and the equations of motion.\n\nReality IVa: Chiral gauge theories and similar theories in 2k dimensions\ntypically lead to gauge anomalies. Gauge anomalies imply that the theory\nis no longer consistent because the unphysical (and negative-norm)\npolarizations of the gauge bosons (or graviton) no longer decouple. The\nstructure of anomalies can be calculated if one tries to regularize\ncertain UV divergences, but the result is purely reflected by the low\nenergy (IR) spectrum of the theory. There is no way to avoid the\nconclusion about gauge anomalies except for cancelling them.\n\nAnomalies in global symmetries do not imply an inconsistency, but they\ndrastically influence the physics of a given theory.\n\nCentral charge (or Weyl anomaly) is a specific example of an anomalous\nterm that can be calculated in many ways, and there is no consistent way\nto avoid its nonzero value.\n\nReality IVb: The existence of UV divergences is real. This existence is in\nfact essential to our ability to set the coupling constants and other\nparameters equal to their observed values.\n\nReality IVc: Non-renormalizability of some UV divergences is not a\nspeculation, but a result of quantitative calculations. The only way how\nthese problems could disappear in a reformulated theory is the situation\nthat the given theory has a UV fixed point under the renormalization\ngroup. The non-trivial, interacting fixed points are very rare, and there\nexists no good reason why such a fixed point should exist and be\nassociated with a generic non-renormalizable theory.\n\nReality IVd (optional): The uncertainty principle is the basic principle\nbehind the whole structure of quantum physics and everything that contains\nthe adjective "quantum".\n______________________________________ ________________________________________\nE-mail: lumo@matfyz.cz fax: +1-617/496-0110 Web: http://lumo.matfyz.cz/\neFax: +1-801/454-1858 work: +1-617/384-9488 home: +1-617/868-4487 (call)\n^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^\n\n</UL></PRE></font></td></tr></table></BODY><HTML>');"> <IMG SRC=/images/buttons/ip.gif BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER ALT="View this Usenet post in original ASCII form">&nbsp;&nbsp;View this Usenet post in original ASCII form </a></div><P></jabberwocky>Quantization without quantization - prejudices and reality
================================================== ========

Let me just write some additional comments about this mode of thinking
that I claim underlies LQG. Let me also write at the beginning that I am
convinced that every sentence below labeled by "LQG" is deeply flawed and
explanations will be given at the end.

LQG meta-axiom I: Whatever is true for a classical theory T must also be
true for its quantization Q(T). Quantization is a bijective functor that
relates objects on both sides by a one-to-one correspondence.

LQG theorem II: We should always look for quantization Q(T) for any
interesting theory T. Q(T) always exists.

LQG corollary IIa: The most interesting generalization of quantum
mechanics is the search for a Hilbert space and operators corresponding to
a given classical phase space. The direction of progress is to consider
increasingly complicated phase spaces.

LQG corollary IIb: The most interesting parts of physics are the tools
(e.g. choice of variables) how to perform the quantization; they are more
important than the ability of the theories to predict and the results
themselves. Examples of these tools are Ashtekar's variables, spin
networks, and spin foam.

LQG corollary IIc: Unusual properties of a quantum theory - such as
non-separable Hilbert space; non-existence of a path-integral formulation;
absence of doable (e.g. perturbative) calculations (of the S-matrix) do
not constitute a problem as long as the theory can be called Q(T) - which
is the most important thing.

LQG implication III: A quantum theory is as interesting as its classical
counterpart. An interesting quantum theory can only be obtained by
quantizing a classical theory.

LQG corollary IIIa: A direct quantization of pure GR should be attempted,
despite failures, because GR is a nice and simple classical theory.

LQG corollary IV: A classical theory T has nice and transparent relations
between the observable. Its quantization Q(T) should therefore have nice
relations between the observables, too.

LQG corollary IVa: Nonzero anomalies are impossible. This includes the
central extensions of the algebra, such as the central charge of a CFT.
One should assume that they are zero, and only look for a proof
(representation) of this assumption.

LQG corollary IVb: Ultraviolet divergences are impossible, too.

LQG corollary IVc: The non-renormalizable divergences can only appear if
the quantization Q(T) is done incorrectly.

LQG corollary IVd (optional): The uncertainty principle must be incorrect
because it destroys the nice relations between the observables.

OK, let's stop with the LQG crap now.

Reality I. A quantum theory is the most radical transformation of the
concepts of physics that we have seen so far, and it implies a lot of new
and unexpected phenomena. The classical intuition is often incorrect in
the quantum world, and no one-to-one correspondence exists. Quantum
mechanics defines new rules which theory are predictive, interesting, and
consistent - rules whose majority is not contained in the classical limit.

Reality II. A classical theory often does not have a consistent quantum
counterpart. An attempt to quantize a theory is often spoiled by anomalies
or non-renormalizable divergences. There are many interesting classical
theories (such as GR of Fermi's theory) that cannot be quantized. There
are also many interesting quantum theories whose classical counterparts
are not too interesting, for example because they are trivial
(Chern-Simons theory). "Reality III" below offers more examples.

Reality IIa. General quantum mechanical systems with a Hamiltonian that is
an arbitrary function on the phase space - which itself has an arbitrary
shape and topology - have not been too important and interesting in
observable physics. Virtually every interesting application of quantum
mechanics of point-like particles is based on wavefunctions on a
well-defined configuration space (x); the spectrum of the momentum
operator is therefore easily calculable. The really interesting
ramifications of quantum mechanics involve different ideas than mixing of
the coordinates and the momenta and making the geometry of the space space
a bit more complicated. In useful applications, the coordinates and
momenta are kinematically decoupled, and one can view this fact as a
non-rigorous, simple version of a Coleman-Mandula-like theorem.

The phase spaces of complicated topology are not too revolutionary from
another reason: if they are small (small number of quantum states), the
classical-quantum link is too fuzzy and ambiguous. If they are large, on
the other hand, the "local" physics on the phase space reproduces physics
on infinite smooth phase space, and is therefore qualitatively understood.

The progress in physics in the last 70 years has been based on very
different ideas than convoluted phase spaces, especially the observed new
ways how relatively simple, "polynomial" systems of very well-defined
degrees of freedom can behave, and new local symmetries and their origin.
This includes gauge theories; Higgs mechanism; confinement; insights of
the renormalization group; generation of spacetime physics from the
stringy worldsheet, and so on.

Reality IIb. In a consistent quantum theory with a classical limit, the
different procedures of quantization must be equivalent. A redefinition of
variables can help us to understand some phenomena, but it cannot make an
inconsistent theory consistent. Finally, methods are only interesting if
they lead to interesting results, and a structure claimed to be Q(T) is
not necessarily an interesting result.

Reality IIc. A physically useful quantum theory must have a separable
Hilbert space - or at least the physically relevant sector must be
separable. A theory must be able to make some predictions that can be
ruled out, at least in principle. Whether or not a system of ideas can be
called Q(T) for some classical theory T is not important physically. The
non-existence of the path-integral formulation or another usual approach
to the theory indicates that the theory has some internal problems.

Reality III. The only success story in quantizing a known classical theory
above 1 dimension was QED. Electrodynamics was a classically studied
theory that happened to have a perturbatively consistent quantum
extension. No other fundamental force is an example. Pure GR is
inconsistent as a quantum theory. The weak sector of the electroweak
theory was found directly as a quantum theory; the virtual (quantum)
W-bosons and the Z-bosons were proposed before the classical limit of the
electroweak theory (and physical, external gauge bosons, together with
their vevs) were considered: another example in which the interesting
quantum theory had to be found before its classical counterpart that is
not so interesting. Also, the equations of QCD were seriously proposed
only when it was known that the (quantum) \beta function was negative and
the force was able to confine quarks and describe asymptotic freedom at
high energies. The classical QCD was not an interesting theory either
because it led to new, unobserved long-range forces, as Pauli proved
(neglecting quantum mechanics in the field-theoretical context) in the
1950s.

The question whether a quantum theory is interesting is largerly
uncorrelated with the question whether its classical limit is interesting.
Examples have been given in "Reality IIa". More generally, a quantum
theory is only interesting if it is predictive. It is very important for
the predictive power of a theory that a generic (high-order) interaction
would lead to inconsistencies in the UV. If it did not, infinitely many
coefficients would be undetermined. In consistent theories they can either
be neglected, or their coefficients' smallness can be justified because
these are the irrelevant operators associated with new physics at much
higher scales, as the logic of the renormalization group dictates, and the
super-high energy physics does not directly influence physics at
accessible energies. A framework that would allow arbitrary couplings to
be added would imply a complete loss of predictive power. String theory is
the only known framework that constrains the parameters in a quantum
theory by mechanisms that go beyond the RG.

These are the physically relevant questions, the "landscape" of
interesting field theories is mapped by the Renormalization Group (RG),
and these tools have nothing to do with the beauty of the classical limit.

Incidentally, the beauty of a classical theory cannot be directly
connected with predictivity - because new, more complicated terms can
essentially always be added - and therefore the "beauty" of a classical
theory is rather close to the subjective notion of simplicity whose direct
physical importance is very limited: a classical GR with R^2 terms is not
inferior to the pure GR, except for purely subjective reasons. On the
other hand, quantum physics of gravity gives a principle to label R^2 as
the less important term.

On the other hand, it is also believed that some interesting quantum
theories do not follow from a classical starting point. It is also known
for sure that a quantum theory can have several classical limits.

Reality IIIa: GR is an example of a non-renormalizable theory, and the
problematic UV behavior is a key to new physics that must regularize the
divergences. In the case of Fermi's theory, the UV completion turns out to
be essentially unique - a spontaneously broken gauge theory. General
covariance is as much constraining or more, and a UV completion must be
taken seriously. String theory is the only known solution how to generate
consistent loop (quantum) contributions to the scattering amplitudes.

The only special feature of GR is the general covariance, which is a
generalization of gauge symmetries (with a spin greater by one). The
structure respecting this gauge symmetry is important for classical
decoupling of the unphysical modes - at the non-linear, multiparticle
level - but it does not imply anything about the quantum loops of GR.

Reality IV: Quantum field theory implies that the observables do have
short distance divergences in their products. Algebras can acquire new
terms that did not exist classically. This behavior can be measured in
some cases; in other cases it directly follows from a nonzero commutator
(the uncertainty principle) and the equations of motion.

Reality IVa: Chiral gauge theories and similar theories in 2k dimensions
typically lead to gauge anomalies. Gauge anomalies imply that the theory
is no longer consistent because the unphysical (and negative-norm)
polarizations of the gauge bosons (or graviton) no longer decouple. The
structure of anomalies can be calculated if one tries to regularize
certain UV divergences, but the result is purely reflected by the low
energy (IR) spectrum of the theory. There is no way to avoid the
conclusion about gauge anomalies except for cancelling them.

Anomalies in global symmetries do not imply an inconsistency, but they
drastically influence the physics of a given theory.

Central charge (or Weyl anomaly) is a specific example of an anomalous
term that can be calculated in many ways, and there is no consistent way
to avoid its nonzero value.

Reality IVb: The existence of UV divergences is real. This existence is in
fact essential to our ability to set the coupling constants and other
parameters equal to their observed values.

Reality IVc: Non-renormalizability of some UV divergences is not a
speculation, but a result of quantitative calculations. The only way how
these problems could disappear in a reformulated theory is the situation
that the given theory has a UV fixed point under the renormalization
group. The non-trivial, interacting fixed points are very rare, and there
exists no good reason why such a fixed point should exist and be
associated with a generic non-renormalizable theory.

Reality IVd (optional): The uncertainty principle is the basic principle
behind the whole structure of quantum physics and everything that contains
the adjective "quantum".
__{_______________________________________________ _____________________________}
E-mail: lumo@matfyz.cz fax: +1-617/496-0110 Web: http://lumo.matfyz.cz/
eFax: +1-801/454-1858 work: +1-617/384-9488 home: +1-617/868-4487 (call)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Arun Gupta
Sep23-04, 04:18 AM
<jabberwocky><div class="vbmenu_control"><a href="jabberwocky:;" onClick="newWindow=window.open('','usenetCode','toolbar=no, location=no,scrollbars=yes,resizable=yes,status=no ,width=650,height=400'); newWindow.document.write('<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Usenet ASCII</TITLE></HEAD><BODY topmargin=0 leftmargin=0 BGCOLOR=#F1F1F1><table border=0 width=625><td bgcolor=midnightblue><font color=#F1F1F1>This Usenet message\'s original ASCII form: </font></td></tr><tr><td width=449><br><br><font face=courier><UL><PRE>Looking back, starting with Kepler\'s laws and ending up with QED and\nthe Standard Model,\nthere were no great mathematical surprises that happened. What\nhappened was that\nphysical phenomena were well-described. It would seem that that era\nof physics is over.\nNeither LQG nor string theory fit the old way of doing physics.\n\nElectodynamics and gravity are part of our everyday "macroscopic"\nexperience, while the\nweak and strong forces are much less apparent. Therefore, one would\nexpect quantum\nelectrodynamics and quantum gravity to have smooth limits into the\nclassical realm.\n(What is the classical limit of quark confinement???) In this\nregard, of providing a good\nclassical limit, perhaps string theory has the edge.\n\n</UL></PRE></font></td></tr></table></BODY><HTML>');"> <IMG SRC=/images/buttons/ip.gif BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER ALT="View this Usenet post in original ASCII form">&nbsp;&nbsp;View this Usenet post in original ASCII form </a></div><P></jabberwocky>Looking back, starting with Kepler's laws and ending up with QED and
the Standard Model,
there were no great mathematical surprises that happened. What
happened was that
physical phenomena were well-described. It would seem that that era
of physics is over.
Neither LQG nor string theory fit the old way of doing physics.

Electodynamics and gravity are part of our everyday "macroscopic"
experience, while the
weak and strong forces are much less apparent. Therefore, one would
expect quantum
electrodynamics and quantum gravity to have smooth limits into the
classical realm.
(What is the classical limit of quark confinement???) In this
regard, of providing a good
classical limit, perhaps string theory has the edge.

Lubos Motl
Sep23-04, 07:05 AM
<jabberwocky><div class="vbmenu_control"><a href="jabberwocky:;" onClick="newWindow=window.open('','usenetCode','toolbar=no, location=no,scrollbars=yes,resizable=yes,status=no ,width=650,height=400'); newWindow.document.write('<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Usenet ASCII</TITLE></HEAD><BODY topmargin=0 leftmargin=0 BGCOLOR=#F1F1F1><table border=0 width=625><td bgcolor=midnightblue><font color=#F1F1F1>This Usenet message\'s original ASCII form: </font></td></tr><tr><td width=449><br><br><font face=courier><UL><PRE>On Thu, 23 Sep 2004, Arun Gupta wrote:\n\n&gt; Looking back, starting with Kepler\'s laws and ending up with QED and\n&gt; the Standard Model, there were no great mathematical surprises that\n&gt; happened.\n\nThat\'s a pretty bold statement. Well, it depends how "great" must be\n"great". Another statement may be much more true than yours: virtually all\nmathematical surprises were found after Kepler wrote down his laws.\n\n&gt; What happened was that physical phenomena were well-described.\n\nPhysical phenomena observed so far.\n\n&gt; It would seem that that era of physics is over. Neither LQG nor string\n&gt; theory fit the old way of doing physics.\n\nIt depends on what you mean by the "old way", but my guess is that most of\nstring theorists would agree that string theory has not changed anything\nabout the rules how we estimate whether an idea is physically promising,\nand so on. It\'s just the situation - the absence of experiments beyond\nSM+GR - that raises the importance of purely theoretical considerations.\n\nBut it\'s not true that string theory is the first theory studied because\nof its special mathematical properties. A similar statement can be said\nabout special relativity, general relativity, or even the tensor structure\nin Feynman-Gell-Mann theory of the weak interactions: these Gentlemen knew\nwhat it was despite the experiments by renowned people who claimed that\nanother structure is relevant.\n\nIn the basic considerations and judgements what science is, what is its\npurpose and how you decide which ideas are good - and what you do with the\nother ideas - string theory is a conservative theory, and all good\nphysicists from the past who would like to be active in the same field -\nthe quest for a new solid foundation underlying the previous theories (a\nstep that has been done many times in the history of physics) - would\nprobably be doing the same things.\n\nWell, what I say about string theory is not true about LQG. LQG claims\nthat all ideas, good or bad, exact or approximate, should not be\neliminated anymore. They cannot be superseded and they will be with us\nforever (see Rovelli\'s book) and it wants to make other modifications to\nthe scientific method, too. The advocates of LQG obviously follow these\nmodified rules, and therefore they move in an increasingly inconsitent\njungle of increasinly bad and irrelevant ideas.\n\n&gt; Electodynamics and gravity are part of our everyday "macroscopic"\n&gt; experience, while the weak and strong forces are much less apparent.\n&gt; Therefore, one would expect quantum electrodynamics and quantum\n&gt; gravity to have smooth limits into the classical realm.\n\nI agree, that\'s the reason why we know these forces from the classical\nworld. But the opposite implication does not work: it is not generally\ntrue that the known classical theory directly reflects the quantum theory.\nThis conjecture works for electromagnetism, but not for gravity.\n\n&gt; (What is the classical limit of quark confinement???)\n\nThe combination of words looks a bit unusual - the sentence treats quark\nconfinment as a "quantum observable" or a "quantum theory". It may be more\nlegitimate to say that quark confinment is a new classical limit (of the\nfull QCD) itself - it is a result of the resummation of all quantum\ndiagrams relevant for very long distances - it implies that flux tubes\n"shrink" to strings (...) whose thickness is of the QCD scale. These\nstrings have a tension of order Lambda_{QCD}^2, and because the energy of\nstrings *grows* with the separation, these strings effectively prevent\ncolor-charged objects to exist in isolation.\n\n&gt; In this regard, of providing a good classical limit, perhaps string\n&gt; theory has the edge.\n\nThat may be true as well, but the original posting that you replied was\nabout a very different fact, in fact a complentary fact: quantum mechanics\nplays an essential role for string theory. Quantum effects cancel many\nunwanted classical effects; the classical theory itself would not be\nconsistent by itself (I am thinking about the Green-Schwarz mechanism).\nThe quantum effects are also essential for dualities (especially\nS-dualities), and everything else.\n\nOn the other hand, quantum physics plays very little role in LQG - LQG is\nconstructed as a formalism where you just add hats above some observables,\nso to say, but it is always assumed that the basic ideas of the classical\ntheory cannot be wrong. Well, this assumption is wrong in hundreds of\ndifferent ways in string theory. The quantum effects are often necessary\nto get any ood and nice result, and the result, including them, is often\nso nontrivial and nice and fits together that we feel that this is the\nonly way how the things can work.\n___________________________________________ ___________________________________\nE-mail: lumo@matfyz.cz fax: +1-617/496-0110 Web: http://lumo.matfyz.cz/\neFax: +1-801/454-1858 work: +1-617/384-9488 home: +1-617/868-4487 (call)\n^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^\n\n</UL></PRE></font></td></tr></table></BODY><HTML>');"> <IMG SRC=/images/buttons/ip.gif BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER ALT="View this Usenet post in original ASCII form">&nbsp;&nbsp;View this Usenet post in original ASCII form </a></div><P></jabberwocky>On Thu, 23 Sep 2004, Arun Gupta wrote:

> Looking back, starting with Kepler's laws and ending up with QED and
> the Standard Model, there were no great mathematical surprises that
> happened.

That's a pretty bold statement. Well, it depends how "great" must be
"great". Another statement may be much more true than yours: virtually all
mathematical surprises were found after Kepler wrote down his laws.

> What happened was that physical phenomena were well-described.

Physical phenomena observed so far.

> It would seem that that era of physics is over. Neither LQG nor string
> theory fit the old way of doing physics.

It depends on what you mean by the "old way", but my guess is that most of
string theorists would agree that string theory has not changed anything
about the rules how we estimate whether an idea is physically promising,
and so on. It's just the situation - the absence of experiments beyond
SM+GR - that raises the importance of purely theoretical considerations.

But it's not true that string theory is the first theory studied because
of its special mathematical properties. A similar statement can be said
about special relativity, general relativity, or even the tensor structure
in Feynman-Gell-Mann theory of the weak interactions: these Gentlemen knew
what it was despite the experiments by renowned people who claimed that
another structure is relevant.

In the basic considerations and judgements what science is, what is its
purpose and how you decide which ideas are good - and what you do with the
other ideas - string theory is a conservative theory, and all good
physicists from the past who would like to be active in the same field -
the quest for a new solid foundation underlying the previous theories (a
step that has been done many times in the history of physics) - would
probably be doing the same things.

Well, what I say about string theory is not true about LQG. LQG claims
that all ideas, good or bad, exact or approximate, should not be
eliminated anymore. They cannot be superseded and they will be with us
forever (see Rovelli's book) and it wants to make other modifications to
the scientific method, too. The advocates of LQG obviously follow these
modified rules, and therefore they move in an increasingly inconsitent
jungle of increasinly bad and irrelevant ideas.

> Electodynamics and gravity are part of our everyday "macroscopic"
> experience, while the weak and strong forces are much less apparent.
> Therefore, one would expect quantum electrodynamics and quantum
> gravity to have smooth limits into the classical realm.

I agree, that's the reason why we know these forces from the classical
world. But the opposite implication does not work: it is not generally
true that the known classical theory directly reflects the quantum theory.
This conjecture works for electromagnetism, but not for gravity.

> (What is the classical limit of quark confinement???)

The combination of words looks a bit unusual - the sentence treats quark
confinment as a "quantum observable" or a "quantum theory". It may be more
legitimate to say that quark confinment is a new classical limit (of the
full QCD) itself - it is a result of the resummation of all quantum
diagrams relevant for very long distances - it implies that flux tubes
"shrink" to strings (...) whose thickness is of the QCD scale. These
strings have a tension of order \Lambda_{QCD}^2, and because the energy of
strings *grows* with the separation, these strings effectively prevent
color-charged objects to exist in isolation.

> In this regard, of providing a good classical limit, perhaps string
> theory has the edge.

That may be true as well, but the original posting that you replied was
about a very different fact, in fact a complentary fact: quantum mechanics
plays an essential role for string theory. Quantum effects cancel many
unwanted classical effects; the classical theory itself would not be
consistent by itself (I am thinking about the Green-Schwarz mechanism).
The quantum effects are also essential for dualities (especially
S-dualities), and everything else.

On the other hand, quantum physics plays very little role in LQG - LQG is
constructed as a formalism where you just add hats above some observables,
so to say, but it is always assumed that the basic ideas of the classical
theory cannot be wrong. Well, this assumption is wrong in hundreds of
different ways in string theory. The quantum effects are often necessary
to get any ood and nice result, and the result, including them, is often
so nontrivial and nice and fits together that we feel that this is the
only way how the things can work.
__{_______________________________________________ _____________________________}
E-mail: lumo@matfyz.cz fax: +1-617/496-0110 Web: http://lumo.matfyz.cz/
eFax: +1-801/454-1858 work: +1-617/384-9488 home: +1-617/868-4487 (call)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Thomas Larsson
Oct1-04, 06:23 AM
<jabberwocky><div class="vbmenu_control"><a href="jabberwocky:;" onClick="newWindow=window.open('','usenetCode','toolbar=no, location=no,scrollbars=yes,resizable=yes,status=no ,width=650,height=400'); newWindow.document.write('<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Usenet ASCII</TITLE></HEAD><BODY topmargin=0 leftmargin=0 BGCOLOR=#F1F1F1><table border=0 width=625><td bgcolor=midnightblue><font color=#F1F1F1>This Usenet message\'s original ASCII form: </font></td></tr><tr><td width=449><br><br><font face=courier><UL><PRE>Lubos Motl &lt;motl@feynman.harvard.edu&gt; wrote in message news:&lt;Pine.LNX.4.31.0409212059050.4633-100000@feynman.harvard.edu&gt;...\n\n&gt; Quantization without quantization - prejudices and reality\n&gt; ================================================== ========\n\nLet me first state that I agree fully with almost all that you say.\nNot unexpectedly, the only one point which I disagree upon is the\ndiscussion on gauge anomalies, and even there I only disagree\npartially. What you say on this issue makes sense and is the\nstandard lore, but it needs elaboration.\n\n&gt; Reality IVa: Chiral gauge theories and similar theories in 2k dimensions\n&gt; typically lead to gauge anomalies. Gauge anomalies imply that the theory\n&gt; is no longer consistent because the unphysical (and negative-norm)\n&gt; polarizations of the gauge bosons (or graviton) no longer decouple. The\n&gt; structure of anomalies can be calculated if one tries to regularize\n&gt; certain UV divergences, but the result is purely reflected by the low\n&gt; energy (IR) spectrum of the theory. There is no way to avoid the\n&gt; conclusion about gauge anomalies except for cancelling them.\n&gt;\n&gt; Anomalies in global symmetries do not imply an inconsistency, but they\n&gt; drastically influence the physics of a given theory.\n&gt;\n&gt; Central charge (or Weyl anomaly) is a specific example of an anomalous\n&gt; term that can be calculated in many ways, and there is no consistent way\n&gt; to avoid its nonzero value.\n\nWe should first define what we mean by a gauge theory. Since not\nall quantum theories have well-defined classical counterparts, we\nneed a definition which is intrinsically quantum. I propose to\ndefine a gauge symmetry as a symmetry with a well-defined,\nnilpotent BRST operator. In that case the symmetry is a redundancy\nof the description, because we can define the physical Hilbert\nspace as the space of BRST cohomology classes.\n\nWith this definition, it is tautologically true that no consistent\ngauge anomalies exist. Not because an anomaly would necessarily\nbe inconsistent, but because it would ruin nilpotency, making the\nsymmetry into a global symmetry ("global" is a terribly confusing\nword in this context, btw. I would prefer the word "non-gauge").\nThere is nothing intrinsically wrong with anomalous global\nsymmetries whose non-anomalous part is isomorphic to a gauge\nsymmetry. The canonical example is the minimal models in CFT with\ncentral charge 1/2 &lt;= c &lt;= 1. They are physically consistent\nin the strong sense that they are realized (and measured!) in\nexperimentally accessible systems. And still the anomaly-free part\nof the symmetry algebra is isomorphic to the Weyl gauge symmetry of\nstring theory.\n\nIf we could take the classical limit of such a system, it would seem\nto have a gauge symmetry. Namely, the anomaly vanishes in the\nclassical limit, and we can write down a classical BRST operator\nwhich is nilpotent, and the symmetry is gauge on the classical\nlevel. There is no classical way to distinguish between such a\n"fake" gauge symmetry and a genuine gauge symmetry which extends to\nthe quantum level. The quantum world is what it is, and classical\nintuition can often go wrong.\n\nUnfortunately, we cannot check this argument for the minimal models,\nbecause they don\'t seem to have a good classical limit. Some aspects\ncan be captured by Landau-Ginzburg models, but others are totally\nopaque in the LG picture, like the supersymmetry of the c = 7/10\nmodel.\n\nThus some anomalous gauge symmetries (= anomalous global symmetries\nwhose non-anomalous part is isomorphic to a gauge symmetry) may be\nconsistent, but all are not. It must be realized that gauge\nsymmetries have two qualitatively different types of anomalies:\n\n1. Anomalies seen in field theory, related to the existence of\nchiral fermions. This class include the ABJ anomalies in the\nstandard model and the Green-Schwartz mechanism. There are two good\nreasons to expect that such anomalies are inconsistent: Nature\navoids them in the standard model, and the corresponding algebra\ndoes not seem to have any good representations.\n\n2. Anomalies like the Virasoro and affine Kac-Moody algebra, and\ntheir higher-dimensional analogues. These algebras have interesting\nunitary representations, but cannot be seen in field theory because\nthey involve the observer\'s trajectory. There is no reason to\nexpect such anomalies to be inconsistent, especially since they do\narise in condensed matter models like the 2D Ising model.\n\nThe different extensions can be illustrated for the current algebra\non the 3D torus. Use a Fourier basis with momenta m = (m_i) in Z^3,\nstructure constants f^abc, second Casimir delta^ab and third Casimir\nd^abc. The Mickelsson-Faddeev algebra describes the ABJ anomaly:\n\n[J^a(m), J^b(n)] = f^abc J^c(m+n)\n\n+ d^abc epsilon^ijk m_i n_j A^c_k(m+n),\n\n[J^a(m), A^b_k(n)] = f^abc A^c_k(m+n) + delta^ab m_k delta(m+n),\n\n[A^a_i(m), A^b_j(n)] = 0.\n\nA^a_i(m) are the Fourier components of the gauge connection.\n\nThe "central" extension (which commutes with gauge transformations\nbut not with diffeomorphisms):\n\n[J^a(m), J^b(n)] = f^abc J^c(m+n) + delta^ab m_i S^i(m+n),\n\n[J^a(m), S^i(n)] = [S^i(m), S^j(n)] = 0,\n\nm_i S^i(m) = 0.\n\nThese two extensions of the current algebra in 3D have thus very\ndifferent properties, and to conclude that inconsistincy of the\nformer implies inconsistency of the latter is simply wrong.\n\nFinally, we must define exactly what we mean by consistency. At the\nmost basic level, a quantum theory is defined by a Hilbert space\nand a unitary time evolution. If the theory has some symmetries,\nthey must be realized as unitary operators acting on this Hilbert\nspace as well. If time translation is included among the symmetries,\nwhich is the case for the Poincare algebra (and more subtly for\ndiffeomorphisms), requiring a unitary representation of the\nsymmetry algebra seems to be enough for consistency.\n\nFrom this viewpoint, there is a 1-1 correspondence between general-\ncovariant quantum theories (GCQT) and unitary representations of the\ndiffeomorphism group on a conventional Hilbert space. Namely, if we\nhave a GCQT, its Hilbert space carries a unitary rep of the diffeo\ngroup. And if we have a unitary rep of the diffeo group, the Hilbert\nspace on which it acts can be interpreted as the Hilbert space of\nsome GCQT. Since all unitary quantum irreps of the diffeo group are\nanomalous, apart from the trivial one, all interesting GCQTs carry\nanomalous reps of the diffeo group. So rather than being\ninconsistent, the second type of gauge anomaly is in fact a\nnecessary condition for non-trivial consistency.\n\n</UL></PRE></font></td></tr></table></BODY><HTML>');"> <IMG SRC=/images/buttons/ip.gif BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER ALT="View this Usenet post in original ASCII form">&nbsp;&nbsp;View this Usenet post in original ASCII form </a></div><P></jabberwocky>Lubos Motl <motl@feynman.harvard.edu> wrote in message news:<Pine.LNX.4.31.0409212059050.4633-100000@feynman.harvard.edu>...

> Quantization without quantization - prejudices and reality
> ================================================== ========

Let me first state that I agree fully with almost all that you say.
Not unexpectedly, the only one point which I disagree upon is the
discussion on gauge anomalies, and even there I only disagree
partially. What you say on this issue makes sense and is the
standard lore, but it needs elaboration.

> Reality IVa: Chiral gauge theories and similar theories in 2k dimensions
> typically lead to gauge anomalies. Gauge anomalies imply that the theory
> is no longer consistent because the unphysical (and negative-norm)
> polarizations of the gauge bosons (or graviton) no longer decouple. The
> structure of anomalies can be calculated if one tries to regularize
> certain UV divergences, but the result is purely reflected by the low
> energy (IR) spectrum of the theory. There is no way to avoid the
> conclusion about gauge anomalies except for cancelling them.
>
> Anomalies in global symmetries do not imply an inconsistency, but they
> drastically influence the physics of a given theory.
>
> Central charge (or Weyl anomaly) is a specific example of an anomalous
> term that can be calculated in many ways, and there is no consistent way
> to avoid its nonzero value.

We should first define what we mean by a gauge theory. Since not
all quantum theories have well-defined classical counterparts, we
need a definition which is intrinsically quantum. I propose to
define a gauge symmetry as a symmetry with a well-defined,
nilpotent BRST operator. In that case the symmetry is a redundancy
of the description, because we can define the physical Hilbert
space as the space of BRST cohomology classes.

With this definition, it is tautologically true that no consistent
gauge anomalies exist. Not because an anomaly would necessarily
be inconsistent, but because it would ruin nilpotency, making the
symmetry into a global symmetry ("global" is a terribly confusing
word in this context, btw. I would prefer the word "non-gauge").
There is nothing intrinsically wrong with anomalous global
symmetries whose non-anomalous part is isomorphic to a gauge
symmetry. The canonical example is the minimal models in CFT with
central charge 1/2 <= c <= 1. They are physically consistent
in the strong sense that they are realized (and measured!) in
experimentally accessible systems. And still the anomaly-free part
of the symmetry algebra is isomorphic to the Weyl gauge symmetry of
string theory.

If we could take the classical limit of such a system, it would seem
to have a gauge symmetry. Namely, the anomaly vanishes in the
classical limit, and we can write down a classical BRST operator
which is nilpotent, and the symmetry is gauge on the classical
level. There is no classical way to distinguish between such a
"fake" gauge symmetry and a genuine gauge symmetry which extends to
the quantum level. The quantum world is what it is, and classical
intuition can often go wrong.

Unfortunately, we cannot check this argument for the minimal models,
because they don't seem to have a good classical limit. Some aspects
can be captured by Landau-Ginzburg models, but others are totally
opaque in the LG picture, like the supersymmetry of the c = 7/10
model.

Thus some anomalous gauge symmetries (= anomalous global symmetries
whose non-anomalous part is isomorphic to a gauge symmetry) may be
consistent, but all are not. It must be realized that gauge
symmetries have two qualitatively different types of anomalies:

1. Anomalies seen in field theory, related to the existence of
chiral fermions. This class include the ABJ anomalies in the
standard model and the Green-Schwartz mechanism. There are two good
reasons to expect that such anomalies are inconsistent: Nature
avoids them in the standard model, and the corresponding algebra
does not seem to have any good representations.

2. Anomalies like the Virasoro and affine Kac-Moody algebra, and
their higher-dimensional analogues. These algebras have interesting
unitary representations, but cannot be seen in field theory because
they involve the observer's trajectory. There is no reason to
expect such anomalies to be inconsistent, especially since they do
arise in condensed matter models like the 2D Ising model.

The different extensions can be illustrated for the current algebra
on the 3D torus. Use a Fourier basis with momenta m = (m_i) in Z^3,
structure constants f^{abc}, second Casimir \delta^ab and third Casimir
d^{abc}. The Mickelsson-Faddeev algebra describes the ABJ anomaly:

[J^a(m), J^b(n)] = f^{abc} J^c(m+n)+ d^{abc} \epsilon^ijk m_i n_j A^{c_k}(m+n),[J^a(m), A^{b_k}(n)] = f^{abc} A^{c_k}(m+n) + \delta^ab m_k \delta(m+n),[A^{a_i}(m), A^{b_j}(n)] = .

A^{a_i}(m) are the Fourier components of the gauge connection.

The "central" extension (which commutes with gauge transformations
but not with diffeomorphisms):

[J^a(m), J^b(n)] = f^{abc} J^c(m+n) + \delta^ab m_i S^i(m+n),[J^a(m), S^i(n)] = [S^i(m), S^j(n)] = 0,m_i S^i(m) = .

These two extensions of the current algebra in 3D have thus very
different properties, and to conclude that inconsistincy of the
former implies inconsistency of the latter is simply wrong.

Finally, we must define exactly what we mean by consistency. At the
most basic level, a quantum theory is defined by a Hilbert space
and a unitary time evolution. If the theory has some symmetries,
they must be realized as unitary operators acting on this Hilbert
space as well. If time translation is included among the symmetries,
which is the case for the Poincare algebra (and more subtly for
diffeomorphisms), requiring a unitary representation of the
symmetry algebra seems to be enough for consistency.

From this viewpoint, there is a 1-1 correspondence between general-
covariant quantum theories (GCQT) and unitary representations of the
diffeomorphism group on a conventional Hilbert space. Namely, if we
have a GCQT, its Hilbert space carries a unitary rep of the diffeo
group. And if we have a unitary rep of the diffeo group, the Hilbert
space on which it acts can be interpreted as the Hilbert space of
some GCQT. Since all unitary quantum irreps of the diffeo group are
anomalous, apart from the trivial one, all interesting GCQTs carry
anomalous reps of the diffeo group. So rather than being
inconsistent, the second type of gauge anomaly is in fact a
necessary condition for non-trivial consistency.

Arun Gupta
Oct5-04, 08:17 AM
<jabberwocky><div class="vbmenu_control"><a href="jabberwocky:;" onClick="newWindow=window.open('','usenetCode','toolbar=no, location=no,scrollbars=yes,resizable=yes,status=no ,width=650,height=400'); newWindow.document.write('<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Usenet ASCII</TITLE></HEAD><BODY topmargin=0 leftmargin=0 BGCOLOR=#F1F1F1><table border=0 width=625><td bgcolor=midnightblue><font color=#F1F1F1>This Usenet message\'s original ASCII form: </font></td></tr><tr><td width=449><br><br><font face=courier><UL><PRE>Thomas Larsson &lt;thomas_larsson_01@hotmail.com&gt; wrote:\n\n&gt; From this viewpoint, there is a 1-1 correspondence between general-\n&gt; covariant quantum theories (GCQT) and unitary representations of the\n&gt; diffeomorphism group on a conventional Hilbert space. Namely, if we\n&gt; have a GCQT, its Hilbert space carries a unitary rep of the diffeo\n&gt; group. And if we have a unitary rep of the diffeo group, the Hilbert\n&gt; space on which it acts can be interpreted as the Hilbert space of\n&gt; some GCQT. Since all unitary quantum irreps of the diffeo group are\n&gt; anomalous, apart from the trivial one, all interesting GCQTs carry\n&gt; anomalous reps of the diffeo group. So rather than being\n&gt; inconsistent, the second type of gauge anomaly is in fact a\n&gt; necessary condition for non-trivial consistency.\n\nPresumably the unitary reps in an interesting GCQT will be constrained\nby an anomaly cancellation condition?\n\n</UL></PRE></font></td></tr></table></BODY><HTML>');"> <IMG SRC=/images/buttons/ip.gif BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER ALT="View this Usenet post in original ASCII form">&nbsp;&nbsp;View this Usenet post in original ASCII form </a></div><P></jabberwocky>Thomas Larsson <thomas_larsson_01@hotmail.com> wrote:

> From this viewpoint, there is a 1-1 correspondence between general-
> covariant quantum theories (GCQT) and unitary representations of the
> diffeomorphism group on a conventional Hilbert space. Namely, if we
> have a GCQT, its Hilbert space carries a unitary rep of the diffeo
> group. And if we have a unitary rep of the diffeo group, the Hilbert
> space on which it acts can be interpreted as the Hilbert space of
> some GCQT. Since all unitary quantum irreps of the diffeo group are
> anomalous, apart from the trivial one, all interesting GCQTs carry
> anomalous reps of the diffeo group. So rather than being
> inconsistent, the second type of gauge anomaly is in fact a
> necessary condition for non-trivial consistency.

Presumably the unitary reps in an interesting GCQT will be constrained
by an anomaly cancellation condition?

Thomas Larsson
Oct6-04, 05:36 AM
<jabberwocky><div class="vbmenu_control"><a href="jabberwocky:;" onClick="newWindow=window.open('','usenetCode','toolbar=no, location=no,scrollbars=yes,resizable=yes,status=no ,width=650,height=400'); newWindow.document.write('<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Usenet ASCII</TITLE></HEAD><BODY topmargin=0 leftmargin=0 BGCOLOR=#F1F1F1><table border=0 width=625><td bgcolor=midnightblue><font color=#F1F1F1>This Usenet message\'s original ASCII form: </font></td></tr><tr><td width=449><br><br><font face=courier><UL><PRE>Arun Gupta &lt;macgupta123@yahoo.com&gt; wrote in message news:&lt;30731f05.0410050358.65ed280b-100000@posting.google.com&gt;...\n\n&gt; Presumably the unitary reps in an interesting GCQT will be constrained\n&gt; by an anomaly cancellation condition?\n\nPerhaps. Unfortunately, I don\'t understand how one can write down a\nwell-defined BRST operator. There are three qualitatively different\ncases:\n\n1. Finite-dimensional algebras. The BRST operator is always well-\ndefined and nilpotent.\n\n2. Infinite-dimensional algebras living over a 1D manifold (growth 1),\nlike Virasoro and affine Kac-Moody. The BRST operator is always\nwell-defined, but nilpotent only in special cases, like c = 26.\n\n3. Infinite-dimensional algebras of growth &gt;= 2, like the higher-\ndimensional analogues of Virasoro and affine algebras. Here the BRST\noperators seems to be completely ill defined. The problem is that\nnormal ordering would introduce an unrestricted sum over transverse\nmodes.\n\nIf you do things in a Fourier basis on a 2D torus, say, the modes\nare labeled by momenta m = (m_1, m_2) in Z^2. We could define m &gt; n\nif m_1 &gt; n_1. Normal ordering gives rise to a sum over all n,\n0 &lt; n &lt; m, as is familiar from 1D. Hence we must sum over all n such\nthat 0 &lt; n_1 &lt; m_1, and -infinity &lt; n_2 &lt; infinity. The second sum\ndiverges.\n\nThis is the problem that prevented people from generalizing the\nVirasoro algebra to higher dimensions for 25 years. It can be\novercome by first expanding all fields in a Taylor\nseries around a marked, 1D curve, and truncating after some finite\norder. This gives us a non-linear realization of the diffeomorphism\nalgebra on finitely many functions of a single variable, which is\nexactly where normal ordering works - there are no transverse modes.\n\nUnfortunately, I see no way to extend this trick to the BRST\noperator, which led me to assert that one must live with the\nanomaly. Be that as it is. My main point, however, is that in order\nto control the anomaly, you must first be able to construct it. LQG\ncannot do that even in 2D, and therefore the LQG string is probably\nwrong. But neither LQG nor string theory (or field theory for that\nmatter) can do that in 4D. The reason is that the anomaly depends\non the marked curve that we Taylor expanded around.\n\nIn fact, it seems like people know how to canonically quantize\nexactly those theories where the quantum representation theory of\nthe constraint algebra is understood, typically conformal theories\nin 2D. From that viewpoint, the representation theories of the\nalgebras of diffeomorphisms and gauge transformations in 4D appear\nto be very relevant.\n\n</UL></PRE></font></td></tr></table></BODY><HTML>');"> <IMG SRC=/images/buttons/ip.gif BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER ALT="View this Usenet post in original ASCII form">&nbsp;&nbsp;View this Usenet post in original ASCII form </a></div><P></jabberwocky>Arun Gupta <macgupta123@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<30731f05.0410050358.65ed280b-100000@posting.google.com>...

> Presumably the unitary reps in an interesting GCQT will be constrained
> by an anomaly cancellation condition?

Perhaps. Unfortunately, I don't understand how one can write down a
well-defined BRST operator. There are three qualitatively different
cases:

1. Finite-dimensional algebras. The BRST operator is always well-
defined and nilpotent.

2. Infinite-dimensional algebras living over a 1D manifold (growth 1),
like Virasoro and affine Kac-Moody. The BRST operator is always
well-defined, but nilpotent only in special cases, like c = 26.

3. Infinite-dimensional algebras of growth >= 2, like the higher-
dimensional analogues of Virasoro and affine algebras. Here the BRST
operators seems to be completely ill defined. The problem is that
normal ordering would introduce an unrestricted sum over transverse
modes.

If you do things in a Fourier basis on a 2D torus, say, the modes
are labeled by momenta m = (m_1, m_2) in Z^2. We could define m > n
if m_1 > n_1. Normal ordering gives rise to a sum over all n,
< n < m, as is familiar from 1D. Hence we must sum over all n such
that < n_1 < m_1, and -infinity < n_2 < infinity. The second sum
diverges.

This is the problem that prevented people from generalizing the
Virasoro algebra to higher dimensions for 25 years. It can be
overcome by first expanding all fields in a Taylor
series around a marked, 1D curve, and truncating after some finite
order. This gives us a non-linear realization of the diffeomorphism
algebra on finitely many functions of a single variable, which is
exactly where normal ordering works - there are no transverse modes.

Unfortunately, I see no way to extend this trick to the BRST
operator, which led me to assert that one must live with the
anomaly. Be that as it is. My main point, however, is that in order
to control the anomaly, you must first be able to construct it. LQG
cannot do that even in 2D, and therefore the LQG string is probably
wrong. But neither LQG nor string theory (or field theory for that
matter) can do that in 4D. The reason is that the anomaly depends
on the marked curve that we Taylor expanded around.

In fact, it seems like people know how to canonically quantize
exactly those theories where the quantum representation theory of
the constraint algebra is understood, typically conformal theories
in 2D. From that viewpoint, the representation theories of the
algebras of diffeomorphisms and gauge transformations in 4D appear
to be very relevant.