PDA

View Full Version : Waves in MHD and plasmas--relativistic theory


Van Jacques
Sep27-04, 03:31 AM
<jabberwocky><div class="vbmenu_control"><a href="jabberwocky:;" onClick="newWindow=window.open('','usenetCode','toolbar=no, location=no,scrollbars=yes,resizable=yes,status=no ,width=650,height=400'); newWindow.document.write('<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Usenet ASCII</TITLE></HEAD><BODY topmargin=0 leftmargin=0 BGCOLOR=#F1F1F1><table border=0 width=625><td bgcolor=midnightblue><font color=#F1F1F1>This Usenet message\'s original ASCII form: </font></td></tr><tr><td width=449><br><br><font face=courier><UL><PRE>\nAs a student I was taught about MHD and plasmas as nonrelativistic\ntheories. I have always thought that this is a mistake from the start.\nHow can one have a non-relativistic theory of the EM field?\nIs not EM fundamentally relativistic, especially if one is going\nto have fields in moving coordinate sytems, as with an MHD flow.\nIt\'s important that we know what group the differential eqns. are\ninvariant under. In Newtonian physics, one has the Galilean\ntransformations,\nbut with an EM field, one must have Lorentz invariance.\n\nWhile one can construct Galilean invariant MHD eqs., using\nthem introduces errors that can\'t be dismissed as "small for small\nvelocities". Consider Alfven waves with v_p^2 = B^2/n (non-rel) and\nv_p^2 = B^2(nf + B^2) (relativistic), where f = 1 + e + p/n =\nrelativistic\nspecific enthalpy = index. When n --&gt; 0, the non-rel expression --&gt; oo,\nbut the relativistic expression has v_p^2 --&gt; 1. There are other\nproblems, especially for the theory of waves in MHD and plasma.\n\nI think a system consisting of matter and an EM field should be done\nrelativistically from the start. This is especially true when doing\nwaves.\nI also think that the Lagrangian and canonical field theory is\nby far the best way to do this problem.\n\nI have written a paper on MHD and plasma waves from this\npoint of view, if any one want a copy, email me for it.\n\nVan\n</UL></PRE></font></td></tr></table></BODY><HTML>');"> <IMG SRC=/images/buttons/ip.gif BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER ALT="View this Usenet post in original ASCII form">&nbsp;&nbsp;View this Usenet post in original ASCII form </a></div><P></jabberwocky>As a student I was taught about MHD and plasmas as nonrelativistic
theories. I have always thought that this is a mistake from the start.
How can one have a non-relativistic theory of the EM field?
Is not EM fundamentally relativistic, especially if one is going
to have fields in moving coordinate sytems, as with an MHD flow.
It's important that we know what group the differential eqns. are
invariant under. In Newtonian physics, one has the Galilean
transformations,
but with an EM field, one must have Lorentz invariance.

While one can construct Galilean invariant MHD eqs., using
them introduces errors that can't be dismissed as "small for small
velocities". Consider Alfven waves with v_p^2 = B^2/n (non-rel) and
v_p^2 = B^2(nf + B^2) (relativistic), where f = 1 + e + p/n =
relativistic
specific enthalpy = index. When n --> 0, the non-rel expression --> oo,
but the relativistic expression has v_p^2 --> 1. There are other
problems, especially for the theory of waves in MHD and plasma.

I think a system consisting of matter and an EM field should be done
relativistically from the start. This is especially true when doing
waves.
I also think that the Lagrangian and canonical field theory is
by far the best way to do this problem.

I have written a paper on MHD and plasma waves from this
point of view, if any one want a copy, email me for it.

Van

Arnold Neumaier
Sep28-04, 10:20 AM
<jabberwocky><div class="vbmenu_control"><a href="jabberwocky:;" onClick="newWindow=window.open('','usenetCode','toolbar=no, location=no,scrollbars=yes,resizable=yes,status=no ,width=650,height=400'); newWindow.document.write('<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Usenet ASCII</TITLE></HEAD><BODY topmargin=0 leftmargin=0 BGCOLOR=#F1F1F1><table border=0 width=625><td bgcolor=midnightblue><font color=#F1F1F1>This Usenet message\'s original ASCII form: </font></td></tr><tr><td width=449><br><br><font face=courier><UL><PRE>\n\nVan Jacques wrote:\n&gt; As a student I was taught about MHD and plasmas as nonrelativistic\n&gt; theories.\n\n&gt; I think a system consisting of matter and an EM field should be done\n&gt; relativistically from the start.\n\n\nThere is significant literature on \'relativistic MHD\'.\nTyping this into google gives, e.g.,\nhttp://www.lsw.uni-heidelberg.de/users/amueller/eng/astro_mhdeng.html\n\nArnold Neumaier\n\n</UL></PRE></font></td></tr></table></BODY><HTML>');"> <IMG SRC=/images/buttons/ip.gif BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER ALT="View this Usenet post in original ASCII form">&nbsp;&nbsp;View this Usenet post in original ASCII form </a></div><P></jabberwocky>Van Jacques wrote:
> As a student I was taught about MHD and plasmas as nonrelativistic
> theories.

> I think a system consisting of matter and an EM field should be done
> relativistically from the start.


There is significant literature on 'relativistic MHD'.
Typing this into google gives, e.g.,
http://www.lsw.uni-heidelberg.de/users/amueller/eng/astro_mhdeng.html

Arnold Neumaier

Van
Sep29-04, 08:28 AM
<jabberwocky><div class="vbmenu_control"><a href="jabberwocky:;" onClick="newWindow=window.open('','usenetCode','toolbar=no, location=no,scrollbars=yes,resizable=yes,status=no ,width=650,height=400'); newWindow.document.write('<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Usenet ASCII</TITLE></HEAD><BODY topmargin=0 leftmargin=0 BGCOLOR=#F1F1F1><table border=0 width=625><td bgcolor=midnightblue><font color=#F1F1F1>This Usenet message\'s original ASCII form: </font></td></tr><tr><td width=449><br><br><font face=courier><UL><PRE>Arnold Neumaier wrote:\n&gt; Van Jacques wrote:\n&gt; &gt; As a student I was taught about MHD and plasmas as nonrelativistic\n&gt; &gt; theories.\n&gt;\n&gt; &gt; I think a system consisting of matter and an EM field should be\ndone\n&gt; &gt; relativistically from the start.\n&gt;\n&gt;\n&gt; There is significant literature on \'relativistic MHD\'.\n&gt; Typing this into google gives, e.g.,\n&gt; http://www.lsw.uni-heidelberg.de/users/amueller/eng/astro_mhdeng.html\n&gt;\n&gt; Arnold Neumaier\n\nI think its also important to treat MHD as a field theory\nbased on a Lagrangian L = - \\rho - (F|F)/2, where \\rho = energy\ndensity of the matter, and - (F|F)/2 = Lagrangian for the EM field\nin MHD, with the 3 scalar fields z^i = the Lagrangian coords. of the\nparticles. I have done this for MHD and plasma, and waves.\nThis way one gets the eqns. governing the waves, and the interaction\nof the waves with the background flow.\nOne finds, e.g., that the wave action = wave "quanta" is conserved.\n\n</UL></PRE></font></td></tr></table></BODY><HTML>');"> <IMG SRC=/images/buttons/ip.gif BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER ALT="View this Usenet post in original ASCII form">&nbsp;&nbsp;View this Usenet post in original ASCII form </a></div><P></jabberwocky>Arnold Neumaier wrote:
> Van Jacques wrote:
> > As a student I was taught about MHD and plasmas as nonrelativistic
> > theories.
>
> > I think a system consisting of matter and an EM field should be
done
> > relativistically from the start.
>
>
> There is significant literature on 'relativistic MHD'.
> Typing this into google gives, e.g.,
> http://www.lsw.uni-heidelberg.de/users/amueller/eng/astro_mhdeng.html
>
> Arnold Neumaier

I think its also important to treat MHD as a field theory
based on a Lagrangian L = - \rho - (F|F)/2, where \rho = energy
density of the matter, and - (F|F)/2 = Lagrangian for the EM field
in MHD, with the 3 scalar fields z^i = the Lagrangian coords. of the
particles. I have done this for MHD and plasma, and waves.
This way one gets the eqns. governing the waves, and the interaction
of the waves with the background flow.
One finds, e.g., that the wave action = wave "quanta" is conserved.