Is it possible to increase the speed of light? (transmissions)

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the feasibility of creating a fictional scenario in which a character believes he is in space while actually being on Earth. Participants explore the implications of communication delays over vast distances, particularly focusing on the time it takes for signals to travel between Earth and various celestial bodies, as well as potential narrative solutions to these challenges.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested
  • Meta-discussion

Main Points Raised

  • One participant proposes a scenario where a character is isolated for 20 years, leading to a significant communication delay of 4.25 hours if he were 2.7 billion miles away.
  • Another participant suggests that the character could be much closer, such as in orbit around Mars, which would reduce the communication delay to about 8 minutes.
  • It is noted that the light lag between Earth and Mars varies significantly, from 3 to 22 minutes, depending on their relative positions.
  • A participant questions the necessity of a long communication delay and suggests that the story could simply state that the character is far away, allowing for flexibility in the narrative.
  • Some participants discuss the idea of using fictional technologies, such as a "tachyonic transmission system," to bypass the limitations of light speed for storytelling purposes.
  • There is a suggestion to place the character at a Lagrange point near the Moon to minimize signal delay to just over a second.
  • Concerns are raised about the feasibility of maintaining communication with a character in orbit around Mars due to potential obstructions from other celestial bodies.
  • Participants engage in a detailed discussion about the timing of Mars' perihelion and aphelion, with some expressing confusion over the implications of these events on communication delays.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express a range of views on the necessity and implications of communication delays in the narrative. There is no consensus on the best approach to address the communication timing issue, with multiple competing ideas presented.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight the variability of communication delays based on the positions of celestial bodies, indicating that assumptions about distances and timing are crucial to the discussion. The conversation also touches on the fictional nature of the scenario, allowing for creative liberties.

Who May Find This Useful

Writers and creators interested in science fiction narratives, particularly those exploring themes of isolation, communication, and the use of fictional technologies in storytelling.

sabbry
I'm new here, and I am working on a script for the screen. What I have now is a man who the audience believes to be in space, but he is really isolated on earth. Now anyway, suppose an infant was put to sleep for 20 years, thus alienating dependence on parents or other role models.

The point is to make the audience think the guy is in space, so after twenty years the guy would be 2.7 billion miles from earth, and as a result it would take 4.25 hours for a transmission to be received.

Now anyone can see that this would present a problem in the film medium. Is it possible to have a short transmission time?
 
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It is a work of fiction, right? You seen any Star Trek?
 
Well yes it is fiction, but its not a space story. What the story is about is experimenting on a human in preperation for a 'global mind control system.' I figured that the initial tests would be on an isolated human who thinks he is in space.
 
Originally posted by sabbry

The point is to make the audience think the guy is in space, so after twenty years the guy would be 2.7 billion miles from earth, and as a result it would take 4.25 hours for a transmission to be received.

why can t he just be in space a few light seconds away? in orbit behind Mars or something? it ll be plenty isolated, and its only a few light seconds away
 


Originally posted by lethe
why can t he just be in space a few light seconds away? in orbit behind Mars or something? it ll be plenty isolated, and its only a few light seconds away

I thought it took about 8 minutes for light to reach Mars from Earth, in the same fact that it takes about 8 minutes for light from the sun to reach the Earth.
 
You make an interesting point, so no matter what his point in orbit it would take 8 minutes to receive a signal?
 


Originally posted by neutroncount
I thought it took about 8 minutes for light to reach Mars from Earth, in the same fact that it takes about 8 minutes for light from the sun to reach the Earth.

The light lag between Earth and Mars varies between 3 min and 22 min. The minimum when opposition occurs in late Aug., and the Maxumum when conjuntion occurs in late Aug.

It only hits these extremes about every 15 years, the average variation over the synodic period of Mars is a bit less.
 
Well, for the sake of accuracy I need to know how long it would take to receive a transmission from Earth.
 
Originally posted by sabbry
You make an interesting point, so no matter what his point in orbit it would take 8 minutes to receive a signal?

No, it depends on how far away he is and the type of orbit. Is there any particuliar reason that he has to be such a great distance away? Would being in the same orbit as the moon work? In that case, you would only be looking at a little over a second in signal delay.
 
  • #10
Originally posted by sabbry
Now anyone can see that this would present a problem in the film medium. Is it possible to have a short transmission time?

(Do we, or PF, get film credit for this?)

You can, as it is fiction, tell the person, who is supposed to be "way out there", that you have perfected a "tachyonic transmission system" of communications, therefore you could easily play with the rates/times of information transference/transmission.

As tachyions travel faster then light (considered to be backwards in time) they can arrive there in a very nice, timely, timeframe.

Does that help?
 
  • #11
I think the moon's orbit could work actually.
 
  • #12
Originally posted by sabbry
I think the moon's orbit could work actually.

In that case, just have him supposedly placed at one of the Lagrange points, either 60 degrees ahead of or behind the Moon in its orbit. These points are gravitationally stable and anything placed there tends to stay there.
 
  • #13


Originally posted by Janus
The light lag between Earth and Mars varies between 3 min and 22 min. The minimum when opposition occurs in late Aug., and the Maxumum when conjuntion occurs in late Aug.

It only hits these extremes about every 15 years, the average variation over the synodic period of Mars is a bit less.

Janus,
Reread this post, I think you may have a typo? There is a LOT happening in late Aug!
 
  • #14
why don't you have him orbit at a point over the dark side of the moon, the dark side of the moon is almost completely undetectable from Earth you would probably have to set up another communications relay around the dark side of the moon so that transmission could occur. The problem with putting something orbiting Mars is, I would assume, that every so often, the planets would get in the way of transmission, and you would have radio silence, just like Apollo 13 did when it swung around the moon.
 
  • #15


Originally posted by Integral
Janus,
Reread this post, I think you may have a typo? There is a LOT happening in late Aug!

Late Aug is is when the Earth's orbit aligns with Mars' perihelion. So when Mars is at perihelion then, we have a close oppostion, and Mars and Earth are at their closest.

Conversely, Mars and Earth are at their greatest separation when Mars is at Aphelion when Earth and Mar's are 180° apart in their orbits( in conjuntion). Mars aphelion is 180° from its perihelion, and Earth must be 180° from Mars at conjunction. This brings us right back to late Aug for maximum separation.
 
  • #16


you mean that it is next late august that they are at their farthest point across correct? because they can't be the closest and the farthest from each other in 2 weeks, without taking the time to calculate it, i doubt a planet even moves about 10 light minutes in 2 weeks.
 
  • #17


Originally posted by Lyuokdea
you mean that it is next late august that they are at their farthest point across correct? because they can't be the closest and the farthest from each other in 2 weeks, without taking the time to calculate it, i doubt a planet even moves about 10 light minutes in 2 weeks.

No, It would be several years later, not the next Aug.
 
  • #18


Originally posted by Janus
Late Aug is is when the Earth's orbit aligns with Mars' perihelion. So when Mars is at perihelion then, we have a close oppostion, and Mars and Earth are at their closest.

Conversely, Mars and Earth are at their greatest separation when Mars is at Aphelion when Earth and Mar's are 180° apart in their orbits( in conjuntion). Mars aphelion is 180° from its perihelion, and Earth must be 180° from Mars at conjunction. This brings us right back to late Aug for maximum separation.

I am sorry Janus, I must be pretty dense. Do we need to specify the year with this? How else can Mars be both closest and furthest in the same week?

Edit:
Opps I missed the previous post. My question has already been answered.
 
  • #19
Now for a on topic post.

I am not sure what your problem is, you need a long delay in communications. That is EASY to do. If you had your fellow in space and were trying to trick him into thinking he were on Earth and needed to reduce the communications time, that would be hard.

I do not see why writting in a communications delay would be hard, make it as long, or as short, as you want and write it into the story.
 
  • #20
I had originally thought of the story set in space, a man destined to live his life inside a cold and lonely ship, for the sake of observation. As you can see there is a magic hole in that logic. Why would they spend billions upon billions to fund this project in space, when they could just make the subject think he was in space for a fraction of the cost?
 
  • #21
well it would be pretty easy to make a man think he is in space, you just need to have the time vary as the orbits very, and also have the transmission block out from time to time, with visuals in the pod the man is into go along with it. The transmission block could easily be simulated by cutting the connection back at the headquarters. There is computers that simulate the delay that you are talking about NASA uses them to show how to work with robots on Mars and the Moon if I remember correctly. You might want to read up on those.
 

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