I'm finally coming out of the closet, atheism I mean.

[LogicalAcid]

My parents are both religious, my dad is very hard-core, my mom not so much. What should I expect,and by the way I am 14.

[zomgwtf]

Well I would like to say you should expect to be treated the same way you've always been treated. Your parents should, in my mind, be the last people on the planet you should feel weird or afraid to admit something to.

Just make sure you do it in a way that does not offend whatever they may believe and perhaps even make some compromises if they press the point. For instance attending church for events won't effect your beliefs but it may help them?

Good luck, if you need any help or any problems arise don't be afraid to shout.

[Phrak]

Did the universe come about by its own will?

[Pengwuino]

Talk to your mother first? And treat them the way you'd like to be treated. One of the things that people always do when it comes to matters like these is feel like they're smarter than the other people they're dealing with. Don't spout off "you guys are idiots, there is no God, I HATE YOU" :biggrin:While it may or may not be a serious issue for you, it could be an almost all-important issue to them so treat it as such.

[Ivan Seeking]

My parents are both religious, my dad is very hard-core, my mom not so much. What should I expect,and by the way I am 14.

Without knowing what church they attend, it is pretty tough to guess at their reaction, but I would expect that your dad especially will be worried about your immortal soul. He may well believe that this is his last chance to save his child from eternal damnation. He may also think that you are too young to make this decision for yourself. He may get very angry. He may be very afraid for you.

My mother was a devout Catholic. I dropped out of the church at about age 13, but the Catholics believe a child of 13 is an adult in the church and capable of making their own decisions in this regard, so my mother respected that.

[Jack21222]

My parents are both religious, my dad is very hard-core, my mom not so much. What should I expect,and by the way I am 14.

Without knowing your parents, it's impossible to tell. I was a few years older than you when I came out as an atheist (maybe 16? I can't remember), and I could tell my mother was upset with me, but she didn't yell or anything like that. Even today (I'm 28 now), my religious family members will occasionally make a snide comment about my atheism, or they'll say something religious, almost daring me to respond. My mother's side of the family is Catholic, by the way.

Lets just hope something like this doesn't happen:

WARNING: NOT SAFE FOR WORK LANGUAGE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8Aq00yJSxo

EDIT: Removed the embedded video, because there's profanity in the title that shows up. Apologies for that.

[Char. Limit]

Without knowing your parents, it's impossible to tell. I was a few years older than you when I came out as an atheist (maybe 16? I can't remember), and I could tell my mother was upset with me, but she didn't yell or anything like that. Even today (I'm 28 now), my religious family members will occasionally make a snide comment about my atheism, or they'll say something religious, almost daring me to respond. My mother's side of the family is Catholic, by the way.

Lets just hope something like this doesn't happen:

WARNING: NOT SAFE FOR WORK LANGUAGE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8Aq00yJSxo

EDIT: Removed the embedded video, because there's profanity in the title that shows up. Apologies for that.

Aaaand I think that video just turned me athiest. Thanks for posting it.

[Ivan Seeking]

Aaaand I think that video just turned me athiest. Thanks for posting it.

Oh please, you were already an atheist if it only took a 30 second video of strangers to make up your mind. That, or your beliefs are so easily changed it boggles the mind.

[Char. Limit]

Oh please, you were already an atheist if it only took a 30 second video of strangers to make up your mind.

It was somewhat of a joke, but I'm not exactly Christian. I think I count as agnostic right now, so I guess I am near-athiest.

[lisab]

That video is really heartbreaking. I felt like grabbing that kid and hugging him, telling him it's ok. That's the mom in me, I guess. Well I'm atheist, too :wink:.

LogicalAcid, what's the reason you want to bring this up with your parents right now?

[Borek]

That's the mom in me

There was a mom in her as well, I suppose.

[Topher925]

What should I expect,and by the way I am 14.

There's no way to tell without knowing your parents. They could be very accepting and allow you to your own beliefs and values, or they could completely disown you as their child. I've seen the latter happen way to often.

Welcome to the club. :approve:

[turbo]

My parents are both religious, my dad is very hard-core, my mom not so much. What should I expect,and by the way I am 14.I was about your age when I refused to keep attending church or Sunday school, though the rebellion had been building for a few years. I was raised Roman-Catholic, and there was an injuction on members to attend mass at least weekly, so it was a big deal for my mother to deal with. Still, she was my mother. I'd attend weddings and funerals, Midnight mass, etc, but regular attendance was out.

You might also want to examine your motivations and beliefs before confronting your parents. I never had the motivation to actively disavow the existence of a god (atheism), and believed that agnosticism was the best way to describe my "relationship" to a deity. Not that I have personal doubts, but that I believe that man cannot know some of the things that fascinate us.

Good luck!

[Evo]

The way normal atheists view atheisim is that atheists just lack belief in supernatural beings that require worship. So, I'm very comfortable with that.

Logical, good luck, the advice to be non-confrontational is good advice. I was 11 when I told my mother I no longer believed in the church and didn't want to attend mass anymore. But then my mom, although being extremely devout, was very col about things. Good luck to you.

[NeoDevin]

There's no way to tell without knowing your parents. They could be very accepting and allow you to your own beliefs and values, or they could completely disown you as their child. I've seen the latter happen way to often.

Or they could try to perform an exorcism.

[turbo]

Or they could try to perform an exorcism.Ooh - BAD! :devil:

[waht]

You have no chance going up against someone like that:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3mDLsyn6ns&feature=related


Otherwise you should be fine. Take stand for what you believe in.

[thorium1010]

You have no chance going up against someone like that:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3mDLsyn6ns&feature=related


Otherwise you should be fine. Take stand for what you believe in.

Clearly, this woman requires help !

[Alex_Sanders]

My parents are both religious, my dad is very hard-core, my mom not so much. What should I expect,and by the way I am 14.


I'm not reading the following post yet, but I'm arbitrarily assuming you got a house of quarrel and trouble ahead.

[Alex_Sanders]

Any way, don't provoke your parents, how's your relationship with your dad? If it is great, then I guess everything should work out fine. If it is painful, then... boy it's gonna get complicated. He would think you became an atheist not because you find religions meaningless and empty, but because you hate him and trying to upset him. I got a friend that pretty much went on this path, and hasn't got any better yet.

Just don't confront them until you are old enough if you ask me.

[LogicalAcid]

That video is really heartbreaking. I felt like grabbing that kid and hugging him, telling him it's ok. That's the mom in me, I guess. Well I'm atheist, too :wink:.

LogicalAcid, what's the reason you want to bring this up with your parents right now?
I feel if I don't tell her, first of all I want to be honest with my parents, because they are always honest with me. Secondly, if I don't I will be sent to a college high school and college. I want to study Chemistry and Physics, the catholic universities are very disclosed on that.

[LogicalAcid]

My dad will most likely be very scared for me. He makes constant references about "I don't want you to suffer eternal damnation" and then above all,he always says he loves God more than anyone. Even me and my sister. This is the reason that I believe the confrontation would go very bad with him. My mom I told, she is agnostic as I just figured out. Then there is my friends. I would be exiled from my school, due to it being small it would spread quick. That and my relationship with the class as whole isn't very good, and I know some people would resort to physical violence, using me being atheist as an excuse. My school apparently has a ''right to discriminate" due to in being private, and I fear they might expel me if I told. My dad again may become blindly angered, he is a very strict orthodox Christian, and would without a doubt lash out in some physical way, he takes his religion above his love for me and my siblings, and he may take it not as an insult to him, but to his God. This is going to be a long arduous process.

[Evo]

I feel if I don't tell her, first of all I want to be honest with my parents, because they are always honest with me. Secondly, if I don't I will be sent to a college high school and college. I want to study Chemistry and Physics, the catholic universities are very disclosed on that.You should not wait, you should broach the subject in a non-confrontational way. It might take a series of small discussions, so you should start now.

Have you ever had any conversations with them about how you feel about what you are getting/not getting from going to church? Can you tell them that it has nothing to do with them or their beliefs, it is you. Your beliefs, your desire to go into science, the schools you'd like to attend.

Let them know that you're not shutting them out but would like their support and input in *your* studies and career.

[chiro]

My parents are both religious, my dad is very hard-core, my mom not so much. What should I expect,and by the way I am 14.

Dude if they do not accept you're viewpoint and perspective, I would question their values and so called "religion". If they want to avoid being hypocritical and believing their religion is "what they believe in", then they should be accepting of what you believe in.

If you're parents give a **** about you, they will probably get into a conversation or maybe a debate and hear you're side of the story and appropriately respond. If they just ridicule you or go on some stupid rant about their beliefs, then it just shows how clueless and ignorant they are, but I'm afraid its a two way street: you have to listen to their point of view just like they have to listen to yours. If the effort is not bidirectional, then its not really a valid discourse.

I guess the reality is that we are all to a point strongly emotionally biased towards what we believe: its hard for anyone no matter how humble to do this because it forces you to lose your ego and create a suspension of disbelief for some period of time to for one moment, listen to what someone has to say and truly consider the possibility that what they are saying, which is in some level of contradiction to what you believe, is in fact true.

I guess to get to the point, if you and you're parents sit down and make every attempt to suspend your disbelief about whatever you have an emotional bias with, then I think it will help both of you come to see why you both believe what you believe and become more comfortable with the perspective of both of your religious views.

[Proton Soup]

i would be very surprised if a religious school kicked you out. rather, i'd expect them to just take more interest in you. that is, unless you just decided to go around saying blasphemies to get peoples' attention.

[bp_psy]

My dad will most likely be very scared for me. He makes constant references about "I don't want you to suffer eternal damnation" and then above all,he always says he loves God more than anyone. Even me and my sister. This is the reason that I believe the confrontation would go very bad with him. My mom I told, she is agnostic as I just figured out. Then there is my friends. I would be exiled from my school, due to it being small it would spread quick. That and my relationship with the class as whole isn't very good, and I know some people would resort to physical violence, using me being atheist as an excuse. My school apparently has a ''right to discriminate" due to in being private, and I fear they might expel me if I told. My dad again may become blindly angered, he is a very strict orthodox Christian, and would without a doubt lash out in some physical way, he takes his religion above his love for me and my siblings, and he may take it not as an insult to him, but to his God. This is going to be a long arduous process.
My advice is that you do not bring the subject up with your parents or at school.I can guarantee that no good will come out of it.I think you have more chances of convincing them to let you chose your high school and college if you give them some good academic reason for wanting to go there .If you tell them that you are an atheist there is the possibility that they will actually force you to go to christian school or try some other awkward method of conversion.You are 14 years old and unfortunately your parents still have complete control over you.Think what the bad consequences of you telling them that you are an atheist might be. Think what the good consequences might be. Think if there is a way to get what you want without telling them and then make your decision.

[VeryEvilDude]

My dad will most likely be very scared for me. He makes constant references about "I don't want you to suffer eternal damnation" and then above all,he always says he loves God more than anyone. Even me and my sister. This is the reason that I believe the confrontation would go very bad with him. My mom I told, she is agnostic as I just figured out. Then there is my friends. I would be exiled from my school, due to it being small it would spread quick. That and my relationship with the class as whole isn't very good, and I know some people would resort to physical violence, using me being atheist as an excuse. My school apparently has a ''right to discriminate" due to in being private, and I fear they might expel me if I told. My dad again may become blindly angered, he is a very strict orthodox Christian, and would without a doubt lash out in some physical way, he takes his religion above his love for me and my siblings, and he may take it not as an insult to him, but to his God. This is going to be a long arduous process.

...Wow, I don't know what to tell you buddy. For me, I was raised Jewish. I went to a Hebrew school for 2 years. For me, it was easy coming out as an atheist because most reformist movements actually accept and acknowledge atheism in their ranks(not always publicly of course). I'm not going to sugar coat it, your in a tough spot. Personally, I would get your mom on your side, she should be more than willing. As a drastic measure If your in the US as a last resort(and even most places like England) their might even be legal options that you could potentially take if the household is as abusive as it sounds. Just make sure you know the risks and consequences of your actions weather positive or negative the out come could be devastating. Your effectively describing an abusive house hold I think.

[hadsed]

My advice is that you do not bring the subject up with your parents or at school.I can guarantee that no good will come out of it.I think you have more chances of convincing them to let you chose your high school and college if you give them some good academic reason for wanting to go there .If you tell them that you are an atheist there is the possibility that they will actually force you to go to christian school or try some other awkward method of conversion.You are 14 years old and unfortunately your parents still have complete control over you.Think what the bad consequences of you telling them that you are an atheist might be. Think what the good consequences might be. Think if there is a way to get what you want without telling them and then make your decision.

I agree with this. My father is like yours and I haven't exactly told him, and I'm in college! I've definitely dropped some big hints, like asking the big questions and saying current answers given to me don't make sense, etc. etc. If I were to have told them when I was 14, I think I would've been out on the street or forced into some kind of private school or summer camp or something. It's frightening what these people would do. That's why I think you should just learn how to manipulate the situation to get what you want. It sounds dirty, but it's really the better alternative than just telling them now.

Then again, I don't know your parents. I just know my parents probably wouldn't have been very happy about it when I was your age, so I would never have done it.

[VeryEvilDude]

I think the general consensus on this site is wait till when your older to officially come out.

[Jack21222]

I think the general consensus on this site is wait till when your older to officially come out.

I'm not sure I agree. He can at least start the process now, like Evo said, by a series of small discussions.

[Max™]

There is no reason why people who love each other can't disagree completely on matters like this, I should know, I'm technically a theological noncognitivist (I used the term imaginary agnostic before I learned it had a name already, but hey) who is madly in love with a Jehovah's Witness.

We have discussions about it, she's taught me that there are good things that come with faith, I've taught her that the universe is way more awesome than she thought, but it just reinforces her belief due to a rather interesting bit of her faith she pointed out to me.

"If god wasn't smarter than I am, what kind of god would it be?"


Just be honest with them, explain why, ask questions, let them ask their own, you'll be better off not hiding it.

The thing that bugged me the most about church was how few people I met like my woman, who REALLY knew they were in the right place, and how many I met that just seemed like they were there "just in case", y'know?

[rootX]

Not going to church/not enjoying church does not make you atheist.

You should think well before you decide to put atheist sticker on your forehead. There is a likelihood that you not being honest to yourself i.e. don't know yourself well. I am in 20s and still don't know much about myself.

However in the end, being calling yourself religious/agnostic/atheist wouldn't affect your personality or how you live with others.

[Jack21222]

Not going to church/not enjoying church does not make you atheist.

You should think well before you decide to put atheist sticker on your forehead. There is a likelihood that you not being honest to yourself i.e. don't know yourself well.

How can you POSSIBLY know that it's likely he's not being honest with himself? You know practically nothing about this kid, and you've stated that the reason he thinks he's an atheist is because he "doesn't enjoy church" and you've stated that it's likely he's not being honest with himself. What makes you think you can make such judgments on so little information?

Just because you don't know yourself well doesn't mean nobody else does. I knew I was an atheist when I was 12. Peer pressure caused me to try to go back to the church when I was about 17, but that was very brief, and I've been a solid atheist ever since.

[bp_psy]

I'm not sure I agree. He can at least start the process now, like Evo said, by a series of small discussions.
Could you list the advantages of having your very religious parents know you are an atheist when you are 14?

[Evo]

Could you list the advantages of having your very religious parents know you are an atheist when you are 14?Since his other thread where he posted that his dad is beyond just religious and possibly physically abusive, there may be nothing he can do. Contacting child welfare won't help since it has to do with religion. A terrible situation.

[Jack21222]

Could you list the advantages of having your very religious parents know you are an atheist when you are 14?

There's something to be said for being open and honest about who you are with your closest family members, instead of living a lie.

[Proton Soup]

How can you POSSIBLY know that it's likely he's not being honest with himself? You know practically nothing about this kid, and you've stated that the reason he thinks he's an atheist is because he "doesn't enjoy church" and you've stated that it's likely he's not being honest with himself. What makes you think you can make such judgments on so little information?

Just because you don't know yourself well doesn't mean nobody else does. I knew I was an atheist when I was 12. Peer pressure caused me to try to go back to the church when I was about 17, but that was very brief, and I've been a solid atheist ever since.

he's not making a judgement, he's suggesting that he keep an open mind and consider his own motivations. just because you realize you're not a republican doesn't automatically mean you're a democrat.

[bp_psy]

There's something to be said for being open and honest about who you are with your closest family members, instead of living a lie.There is also something to be said about causing a lot damage to a relationship with a person that you love and respect because you have to mention something that isn't really that important.

My parents were not religious so my coming out as an atheist was not really an issue.On the other hand my grandparents are really religious.I have a very good relationship with them. I know that if I would tell them that I am an atheist their attitude towards me would change.Because I love and respect my grandparents I do not tell them I am an atheist.That does not bother me at all because there is nothing to gain by telling them.I also don't feel a need to tell them because my "atheism" is not really what defines me as a person.I was born that way.I am certainly not living a lie.

[Jack21222]

he's not making a judgement, he's suggesting that he keep an open mind and consider his own motivations. just because you realize you're not a republican doesn't automatically mean you're a democrat.

The opposite of Republican is "not a Republican." The opposite of a theist is "not a theist" which is the exact definition of "atheist."

What rootX did was the equivalent, in your analogy, of saying somebody isn't a Democrat when they profess "I'm a Democrat." That's especially dumb to do when you know practically nothing about the person you're talking about.

[Proton Soup]

The opposite of Republican is "not a Republican." The opposite of a theist is "not a theist" which is the exact definition of "atheist."

What rootX did was the equivalent, in your analogy, of saying somebody isn't a Democrat when they profess "I'm a Democrat." That's especially dumb to do when you know practically nothing about the person you're talking about.

no, you're being presumptive and reactionary in what rootX wrote. go read it again. think about it. see if it makes more sense tomorrow. it's got nothing to do with what the definition of atheism is. it's got everything to do with realizing that you don't fit in. once he gets away from his current situation, the way he thinks about himself and the world may change.

[rootX]

How can you POSSIBLY know that it's likely he's not being honest with himself? You know practically nothing about this kid, and you've stated that the reason he thinks he's an atheist is because he "doesn't enjoy church" and you've stated that it's likely he's not being honest with himself. What makes you think you can make such judgments on so little information?

Just because you don't know yourself well doesn't mean nobody else does. I knew I was an atheist when I was 12. Peer pressure caused me to try to go back to the church when I was about 17, but that was very brief, and I've been a solid atheist ever since.

I am not willing to argue with you. I responded to OP not to you thus it is best to leave this to OP to decide whether he finds something useful in it or not.

It's good to know that you discovered yourself at the age of 12. I guess I am bit slow :biggrin:

[Kevin_Axion]

In the words of Richard Dawkins, "Each person is an atheist to every other religion, the only difference is that atheists go one God further."

[Jack21222]

no, you're being presumptive and reactionary in what rootX wrote. go read it again. think about it. see if it makes more sense tomorrow. it's got nothing to do with what the definition of atheism is. it's got everything to do with realizing that you don't fit in. once he gets away from his current situation, the way he thinks about himself and the world may change.

So your big insight is that he might change his mind later? If that was the point of rootX's post, it's so elementary I don't see the point in posting it at all. Of COURSE he might change his mind later and go back to theism. I tried to briefly, too.

I still say rootX was being judgmental in assuming that the OP is *likely* not being honest with himself. Calling somebody dishonest with absolutely nothing to back it up with is a fairly serious thing to say.

[leroyjenkens]

Your parent's response could be anything from "We support any decision you make", to "You're out of the house".
You know them best, so you probably know best what to expect.

[LogicalAcid]

So your big insight is that he might change his mind later? If that was the point of rootX's post, it's so elementary I don't see the point in posting it at all. Of COURSE he might change his mind later and go back to theism. I tried to briefly, too.

I still say rootX was being judgmental in assuming that the OP is *likely* not being honest with himself. Calling somebody dishonest with absolutely nothing to back it up with is a fairly serious thing to say.

I have faced religion for a long while, it was shoved down my throat by my relatives. Only one of which was even close to agnostic. I am tired of it, I have tried to make exceptions to stay with religion. No more, I have no problem abiding by their values. I agree that we should all treat each other the way we want to be treated. Not because of God, but because we are fellow human beings.

[Kevin_Axion]

A great quote by Steven Weinberg is this (of course this is paraphrased): "Many people pick and choose from religion, for instance many don't follow the rules of the sabbath which involve killing those whom work on Sunday or stoning those whom commit adultery. Why is this? Over time, society has changed and many people have realized these things are wrong. So I ask, if one can have the innate moral capability of choosing what is good and bad, then what is that point of religion?" Here is the talk: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZJmEIFq8vk. The man is, put lightly, a genius.

[rootX]

A great quote by Steven Weinberg is this (of course this is paraphrased): "Many people pick and choose from religion, for instance many don't follow the rules of the sabbath which involve killing those whom work on Sunday or stoning those whom commit adultery. Why is this? Over time, society has changed and many people have realized these things are wrong. So I ask, if one can have the innate moral capability of choosing what is good and bad, then what is that point of religion?" Here is the talk: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZJmEIFq8vk. The man is, put lightly, a genius.

We do have the innate moral capability of choosing what is good and bad. However, few positive points of religions I see are providing peace of mind for people who find it peaceful when they remember god or practice faith. In addition, faith can offer comfort similar to what you would get from close friends when things go out of your hands or when you are simply looking for some comfort. I have personally seen people using religions to find comfort. I have also seen some using it as guide to stay away from immoral decisions when they face dilemma.

[Kevin_Axion]

That is fine, but my point still stands, humans are innately moral. So those who argue religion is the only guide to moral decision making are "completely" incorrect.

[VeryEvilDude]

I'm not sure I agree. He can at least start the process now, like Evo said, by a series of small discussions.

Well and in my above post I even suggested bringing it up slowly with his mom since I think he said she was agnostic.

[DevilsAvocado]

I’m totally and utterly stunned... I was sure OP was living in Saudi Arabia or Iran...

The United States of America in 2011!?!? :bugeye:


@LogicalAcid: I can’t give any good advice, I live in a "different world" in a highly secularized society, but to me the best argument for "coming out of the closet" is your own fathers "behavior" and to make sure that your own future kids never has to deal with the problems you have right now.

But take it easy, it’s not fun to be in a "major-parent-conflict" at 14...

I don’t know, but maybe you should ask your father on his view on the second of the two greatest commandments:

One should love one's neighbour as one would love oneself

????

[mathematicsma]

I didn't read the entire thread, so I apologize if I'm repeating something, or whatever. That said...

The OP's situation is not simple. I'd say to shut up, and live a lie for a few years. Is that pleasant? No, it's sucks. But it's probably better than the alternative. Religious people can be very difficult at times, and hard to anticipate. At 14 years old, coming out like this can cause a lot of difficulty. First of all, assuming the parents don't kick the OP out (which I suspect will be the case. The mom will likely convince the dad to go soft), the relationship will be strained.

When your 14, there isn't that much you can do on your own. I assume the OP still lives at home, and will continue to live at home for a while. No, the OP probably does not want to go to child services and end up in an orphanage, or foster care. That sucks more than living with religious fanatics. How do you deal with a father who is constantly trying to save you? It's hard, trust me. Even if the father accepts the child, and agrees not to bother the OP, he will still be pained by the fact that his own child is going to be damned. And that pain will show. Every time the kid skips church, the father will be upset. And so on.

Relationships between teens and parents are rough to begin with. Religion is probably the most dangerous thing we've ever had. (Think of all the wars fought over religion, etc. These passions can be really powerful.) The two together are downright explosive.

The best plan of action? Keep quiet for a few years, till you get to college. And even then, no reason to make some big announcement. Just let it come out, over time. Once you've moved out of the house, you can live your own life. And when you visit your parents, no reason you have to put it in their face. When in Rome, do as the Romans. When at religious homes, just go through the motions. Simple respect.

Until you get out of your parents home, it will be difficult pretending. I agree. What's your alternative?
BTW, would your parents even allow you to go to a public school? Suppose you get kicked out of the religious school, then what?

I'm not sure if my thoughts are coherent. This is just how I think about this topic.And I've thought about it a hell of a lot over the last few years.

[mugaliens]

I used to be an atheist...

[DevilsAvocado]

I used to believe in Santa...

[xxChrisxx]

You mean Santas not real?

[Borek]

No, you are jumping to conclusions. All he stated is he no longer believes.

[DevilsAvocado]

Thanks Borek.

[xxChrisxx]

No, you are jumping to conclusions. All he stated is he no longer believes.

Ah good, becuase he's clearly wrong as Santa brought me a toy helicopter for Christmas it said so on the gift label.


OP: If I were you i'd just keep quiet for a bit, maybe drop a few feelers out there. I'm (relatively) risk averse so I'd tend to play something like this close to my chest until I knew the outcome wouldn't be a disaster.

[Bararontok]

Explain the following scientific facts to your parents:

All of the phenomena discovered by scientific progress are impersonal, inanimate, reproducible, materialistic, and infinitely repetitive. The biochemicals, curved space-time continuum, stress-energy metric tensor, force fields, super strings, and elementary particles that have been uncovered and analyzed all exhibit the properties mentioned above and because of the conservation of matter and energy laws which state that matter and energy are not created or destroyed but merely change form, there is no known instant of creation since the matter was simply bundled in a singularity that preceded the Big Bang and expanded from that central point of origin. Now, the elementary particles that are the basic building blocks of the universe are definitely not thinking beings or alive, they are mindless and dead and everything uncovered by scientific progress fits this system when broken down to the fundamental level, even the human mind. So religion cannot fit into such a system because it espouses the existence of spirits and deities whose bodily and mental functions cannot be broken down to basic materialistic processes but can still achieve more complex functions. This is completely unrealistic from a mathematical, scientific, and logical perspective because every complex system must be reducible to its functioning component parts and without these basic constant, repetitive and partially indeterminate functions, a more complex operational system cannot be assembled. This is also true with mathematics and logic because more complex formulas and propositions cannot be established without first assembling simpler functions such as using the repetitive addition of like values to achieve multiplication and repetitive multiplication of like values to get exponentiation. A simpler function on its own cannot process thoughts or even be considered alive for that matter because living and thinking are the product of a combination of plenty of simple physical processes to achieve a higher more complex process.

Therefore, the constitution of the universe as described by the advance of science is a purely materialistic one. The universe is made up entirely of elementary particles which give rise to all of the phenomena occurring in it. The elementary particles are indivisible and immutable since according to the law of the conservation of matter they cannot be created or destroyed but can be used to assemble more complex forms of matter which can change form according to various physical processes. Furthermore, the characteristics of all of the forces discovered by science throughout history have remained unchanged and these characteristics are:

1.) Inanimate - the forces are not alive.

2.) Unconscious - the forces are not self-aware or aware of the environment.

3.) Impersonal - the forces are not capable of free thought since they are too fundamental to be capable of such complex behavior.

4.) Infinitely Repetitive - the phenomena can occur an infinite number of times in indefinite frequencies because the energy used to power the phenomena which are mediated by elementary particles are always conserved.

Aside from the law of conservation of matter which proves that there is no instant of creation, compelling evidence that the universe arose from materialistic processes and not out of a complete vacuum comes from experiments done recently in Brookhaven New York for generating black holes from gold nuclei which have shown that the universe originally came from a singularity of compressed matter which evaporated due to Hawking Radiation and caused the elementary particles trapped within to expand outwards and assemble the other entities in the universe. Scientific principles about the behavior of the universe point out that there are only two possible ways the singularity state that the universe was previously in was formed and it could be that the singularity came either from the matter of a previous universe that experienced a Big Crunch due to collapse from its own total gravity or that the matter came from the cosmic collision of two other universes which caused the matter from both universes to combine, form into a singularity due to the tremendous force of the impact and then expand outwards to form the present universe. If the law of matter conservation is to be upheld, the matter cannot expand into infinity but must eventually end up in the domain of another universe and be reused causing the matter to be exchanged from place to place in endless cycles throughout an infinite multi-verse. Based on the overwhelming evidence provided by the advance of science, everything that exists are the product of mindless materialistic processes and is never done deliberately or with good reason, it is because of this that the answer to the question regarding the meaning of life is that life has no meaning but is instead just another set of materialistic processes which have occurred entirely by accident. It is not the universe but the flaws in the reasoning of intelligent life which are again the fault of quantum indeterminacy errors in materialistic processes that cause intelligences such as humans to construct imaginary reasons to provide a purpose for existence.

The quotes below show some of the views held by the famous scientists who have made major contributions to science and have provided evidence disproving the possibility of existence possessing any meaning or the existence of supernatural phenomena.

"The universe is governed by the uncaring laws of matter which don't give a damn about us and will not make miracles happen on our behalf." –Thomas Alva Edison

"The belief in the Word of God is a sign of human weakness." –Albert Einstein

“This present-day version of God of the gaps goes by a fresh name: ‘intelligent design.’ The term suggests that some entity, endowed with a mental capacity far greater than the human mind can muster, created or enabled all the things in the physical world that we cannot explain through scientific methods. An interesting hypothesis. But why confine ourselves to things too wondrous or intricate for us to understand, whose existence and attributes we then credit to a super-intelligence? Instead, why not tally all those things whose design is so clunky, goofy, impractical, or unworkable that they reflect the absence of intelligence? And what comedian designer configured the region between our legs-an entertainment complex built around a sewage system? Stupid design could fuel a movement unto itself. It may not be nature's default, but it's ubiquitous. Yet people seem to enjoy thinking that our bodies, our minds, and even our universe represent pinnacles of form and reason. Maybe it's a good antidepressant to think so. But it's not science-not now, not in the past, not ever.” -Neil de Grasse Tyson

Show them this video as well:

rDgzRIiQ4b8

[nismaratwork]

Personal beliefs, or lack of them, are just that: personal. You have no obligation to share, and I really wish that more people got that. I'm an atheist, and I'm tired of the jesus freaks, and whatever you call someone who posts what Bararontok posted above. Great, someone thinks that they go to a magical castle when they die, and I don't... snooooore... can we get on with fixing the world economy now? I'll worry about death when I'm dead, or not... we'll see!... or not.

[DevilsAvocado]

"The fear of death is the most unjustified of all fears, for there's no risk of accident for someone who's dead." -- Albert Einstein

[nismaratwork]

"The fear of death is the most unjustified of all fears, for there's no risk of accident for someone who's dead." -- Albert Einstein

He was a clever man, but I'm sure he was taken by thanatophobia on occasion... I suspect everyone is.

"All our knowledge merely helps us to die a more painful death than animals that know nothing." (Maurice Maeterlinck)

"In any man who dies there dies with him
his first snow and kiss and fight....
Not people die but worlds die in them."
(Yevgeny Aleksandrovich Yevtushenko)

and of course:

"Our death is not an end if we can live on in our children and the younger generation. For they are us, our bodies are only wilted leaves on the tree of life." (Albert Einstein)

[DevilsAvocado]

He was a clever man, but I'm sure he was taken by thanatophobia on occasion... I suspect everyone is.

Nice quotes/poetry nismar, of course I have no idea what Einstein really felt, but I guess he was as any normal human that appreciate life – just because you don’t fear "eternal damnation" or any other medieval mumbo-jumbo, it doesn’t mean you’re ready to jump out of any other cliff:

– Hey guys look at me! I’m not afraid to dieeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!

:wink:

What is somewhat baffling to me is the fact that the real hardcore religious doesn’t seem to appreciate and understand the "lottery of life". Every human that have ever lived and are living today has won the top prize in this lottery, despite the incredible bad odds. Just think about it; if your grandmother's grandmother’s grandmother, and so on and so forth, had a cold and fever on that very "special day" very long ago, you wouldn’t be here. Not talking about the sperm race...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sn/humanbody/truthaboutfood/images/sperm_race.jpg

I can’t calculate the odds, but I guess it’s much higher than the number of stars in the observable universe, 9 billion trillion stars; worse that one chance in 9 × 1021 ...

And this is NOT ENOUGH?? They want ETERNAL PARADISE on top!?!? :bugeye:

I don’t get it...

[mathematicsma]

OP: whatever you decide, don't bother with quoting bararantok to your parents. It's a complete waste of time. Do NOT try to convince your parents that you are right. The only thing that'll cause is more of a confrontation. You'll be a threat to them. Besides, it's a complete waste of time to have theological conversations with religious people. You won't convince them, and they won't convince you. Especially when those people are your parents and they're concerned you'll be damned in hell for all of eternity. They'll get emotionally involved, etc.

If you do decide to tell your parents (which I discourage, see my previous post), just state the facts. You don't believe, you're not interesting in arguing with them. You respect the fact that they want to believe (say that even if you don't respect their belief), but it's not for you, and it's your life. That's all.

Good Luck!

BTW, who said we won the lottery of life? Maybe we lost it? I've heard Hawkings quoted as saying that we "won the cosmic lottery." I'm not sure what that means. Perhaps we lost the cosmic lottery. Of all the universes that could have happened, of all the gazillion possibilities, I should think that ours is far from optimal. Okay, it could be worse. But it could be better. If you play a game where the payout can be anything between $0 and $5 billion, and you win $1 million, you didn't fare too well. But if you were unaware of the potential winnings, and the house just told you, "you won $1 million," you'd be pretty happy.

Did we win or lose? Are we unaware of how much more there could have been? Perhaps a world without all the diseases we have, all the criminals we have, etc.? All of those are evolutionary problems. And the fact that there are no unicorns, that's also a failure of evolution.

But when you're playing a game of chance, you can't expect that much. It's random, after all.

[Evo]

OP: whatever you decide, don't bother with quoting bararantok to your parents. It's a complete waste of time. Do NOT try to convince your parents that you are right. The only thing that'll cause is more of a confrontation. You'll be a threat to them. Besides, it's a complete waste of time to have theological conversations with religious people. You won't convince them, and they won't convince you. Especially when those people are your parents and they're concerned you'll be damned in hell for all of eternity. They'll get emotionally involved, etc.

If you do decide to tell your parents (which I discourage, see my previous post), just state the facts. You don't believe, you're not interesting in arguing with them. You respect the fact that they want to believe (say that even if you don't respect their belief), but it's not for you, and it's your life. That's all.

Good Luck!

BTW, who said we won the lottery of life? Maybe we lost it? I've heard Hawkings quoted as saying that we "won the cosmic lottery." I'm not sure what that means. Perhaps we lost the cosmic lottery. Of all the universes that could have happened, of all the gazillion possibilities, I should think that ours is far from optimal. Okay, it could be worse. But it could be better. If you play a game where the payout can be anything between $0 and $5 billion, and you win $1 million, you didn't fare too well. But if you were unaware of the potential winnings, and the house just told you, "you won $1 million," you'd be pretty happy.

Did we win or lose? Are we unaware of how much more there could have been? Perhaps a world without all the diseases we have, all the criminals we have, etc.? All of those are evolutionary problems. And the fact that there are no unicorns, that's also a failure of evolution.

But when you're playing a game of chance, you can't expect that much. It's random, after all.I love your post!!!

[rootX]

I agree with mathematicsma. I have also gone through that and it was not pleasant. In addition, I was more closed minded those days than I am now. Looking back I should not have argued that much with my parents.

[lisab]

Nice quotes/poetry nismar, of course I have no idea what Einstein really felt, but I guess he was as any normal human that appreciate life – just because you don’t fear "eternal damnation" or any other medieval mumbo-jumbo, it doesn’t mean you’re ready to jump out of any other cliff:

– Hey guys look at me! I’m not afraid to dieeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!

:wink:

What is somewhat baffling to me is the fact that the real hardcore religious doesn’t seem to appreciate and understand the "lottery of life". Every human that have ever lived and are living today has won the top prize in this lottery, despite the incredible bad odds. Just think about it; if your grandmother's grandmother’s grandmother, and so on and so forth, had a cold and fever on that very "special day" very long ago, you wouldn’t be here. Not talking about the sperm race...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sn/humanbody/truthaboutfood/images/sperm_race.jpg

I can’t calculate the odds, but I guess it’s much higher than the number of stars in the observable universe, 9 billion trillion stars; worse that one chance in 9 × 1021 ...

And this is NOT ENOUGH?? They want ETERNAL PARADISE on top!?!? :bugeye:

I don’t get it...

That makes me want to sing!

JWVshkVF0SY

[DevilsAvocado]

BTW, who said we won the lottery of life? Maybe we lost it?

I’m not saying that everything is perfect, but you are alive? Aren’t you?? Pick up a stone and experience the difference...

Earlier I was only referring to grandmas and sperms, but the story can be made much much longer, from the formation of every chemical element in your body in supernova explosions, to the decision of the first amoeba to go left or right. I.e. if you don’t believe that the Earth was created 3.000 years ago...

If you contemplate all this, and the fact that you are you, then it doesn’t matter that much that there are no unicorns. Let’s save the animals we do have!!

In 1990 Carl Sagan requested NASA to turn the camera around on Voyager 1, before leaving the Solar System, to take a photograph of Earth across a great expanse of space, on a distance of 6 billion kilometers. The photograph is known as the Pale Blue Dot:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/73/Pale_Blue_Dot.png
Earth appears as a tiny dot (the blueish-white speck approximately
halfway down the brown band to the right) within the darkness
of deep space.


Carl Sagan’s thoughts on a deeper meaning of the photograph:
From this distant vantage point, the Earth might not seem of particular interest. But for us, it's different. Look again at that dot. That's here, that's home, that's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.

The Earth is a very small stage in a vast cosmic arena. Think of the rivers of blood spilled by all those generals and emperors so that, in glory and triumph, they could become the momentary masters of a fraction of a dot. Think of the endless cruelties visited by the inhabitants of one corner of this pixel on the scarcely distinguishable inhabitants of some other corner, how frequent their misunderstandings, how eager they are to kill one another, how fervent their hatreds.

Our posturings, our imagined self-importance, the delusion that we have some privileged position in the Universe, are challenged by this point of pale light. Our planet is a lonely speck in the great enveloping cosmic dark. In our obscurity, in all this vastness, there is no hint that help will come from elsewhere to save us from ourselves.

The Earth is the only world known so far to harbor life. There is nowhere else, at least in the near future, to which our species could migrate. Visit, yes. Settle, not yet. Like it or not, for the moment the Earth is where we make our stand.

It has been said that astronomy is a humbling and character-building experience. There is perhaps no better demonstration of the folly of human conceits than this distant image of our tiny world. To me, it underscores our responsibility to deal more kindly with one another, and to preserve and cherish the pale blue dot, the only home we've ever known.



Sure, it could be real fun to have $1 million or $5 billion, but if you look at the Pale Blue Dot and think one step further, you’ll realize that you already are a "cosmic gazillionaire"... enjoy! :wink:

[chiro]

Personal beliefs, or lack of them, are just that: personal. You have no obligation to share, and I really wish that more people got that. I'm an atheist, and I'm tired of the jesus freaks, and whatever you call someone who posts what Bararontok posted above. Great, someone thinks that they go to a magical castle when they die, and I don't... snooooore... can we get on with fixing the world economy now? I'll worry about death when I'm dead, or not... we'll see!... or not.

This is probably the best post on the subject of belief systems especially religious ones and I commend you for your post. Its funny how some people who are scientific ram their case down other peoples throats as if to be superior when they are actually no different than the religious nuts telling everyone through a megaphone that the world will end in 2012. I'm glad you made this post because it sums up my view on the subject better than I could have done myself.

[DevilsAvocado]

that makes me want to sing!

I LOVE IT!!! MY FAVORITE SONG!!! Thanks lisab!!!

[mathematicsma]

I’m not saying that everything is perfect, but you are alive? Aren’t you?? Pick up a stone and experience the difference...

Earlier I was only referring to grandmas and sperms, but the story can be made much much longer, from the formation of every chemical element in your body in supernova explosions, to the decision of the first amoeba to go left or right. I.e. if you don’t believe that the Earth was created 3.000 years ago...

If you contemplate all this, and the fact that you are you, then it doesn’t matter that much that there are no unicorns. Let’s save the animals we do have!!

In 1990 Carl Sagan requested NASA to turn the camera around on Voyager 1, before leaving the Solar System, to take a photograph of Earth across a great expanse of space, on a distance of 6 billion kilometers. The photograph is known as the Pale Blue Dot:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/73/Pale_Blue_Dot.png
Earth appears as a tiny dot (the blueish-white speck approximately
halfway down the brown band to the right) within the darkness
of deep space.


Carl Sagan’s thoughts on a deeper meaning of the photograph:




Sure, it could be real fun to have $1 million or $5 billion, but if you look at the Pale Blue Dot and think one step further, you’ll realize that you already are a "cosmic gazillionaire"... enjoy! :wink:

That's a beautiful quote from Carl Sagan. I enjoyed it, and I think it's a powerful thought.

That said, I'm not sure what it has to do with winning or losing the cosmic lottery. I'm not trying to say that we should all be depressed, or think that life is terrible because it could be so much better. That's a completely different issue, one of optimism vs. pessimism. What I am saying is that there is no reason to think of what happened to us as remarkable.

Let me explain this further with an analogy (I heard this somewhere, but I can't remember who said it first): Suppose I deal you five cards out of a deck. You take one look at them, and say, "Remarkable! Look what I got! Two kings, a three, an eight, and a six! Now, the odds of this specific hand being dealt was just one out of 52!/(5!*47!). That's tiny!"

Of course, that's silly. I dealt you a hand, so you had to get something, Whatever you get, you can say that it's a miracle.

Often, religious people buttress their arguments by saying that the odds of the world evolving the way it did are infinitesimal. So the must have been divine intervention. That's like saying that there had to be divine intervention in the hand I dealt you-- how else could you have gotten such a rare hand?

My understanding is that when Hawkings said that we won the cosmic lottery, he was trying to answer that religious argument. In other words, yes, it's rare, it's remarkable that the world evolved the way it did, but hey, we won the lottery of evolution! Good for us, sucks for anyone who would have lived on Venus! Those guys lost!

That's where I disagree. Yes, we won relative to potential people on Venus, but we lost relative to what could have been, and perhaps what exists elsewhere. We know of but a tiny bit of our universe. So yes, we can look at the planets around us, and say, "We won $1 million, they all lost." But that's myopic. We have no idea what the potential winnings were.

[nismaratwork]

That's a beautiful quote from Carl Sagan. I enjoyed it, and I think it's a powerful thought.

That said, I'm not sure what it has to do with winning or losing the cosmic lottery. I'm not trying to say that we should all be depressed, or think that life is terrible because it could be so much better. That's a completely different issue, one of optimism vs. pessimism. What I am saying is that there is no reason to think of what happened to us as remarkable.

Let me explain this further with an analogy (I heard this somewhere, but I can't remember who said it first): Suppose I deal you five cards out of a deck. You take one look at them, and say, "Remarkable! Look what I got! Two kings, a three, an eight, and a six! Now, the odds of this specific hand being dealt was just one out of 52!/(5!*47!). That's tiny!"

Of course, that's silly. I dealt you a hand, so you had to get something, Whatever you get, you can say that it's a miracle.

Often, religious people buttress their arguments by saying that the odds of the world evolving the way it did are infinitesimal. So the must have been divine intervention. That's like saying that there had to be divine intervention in the hand I dealt you-- how else could you have gotten such a rare hand?

My understanding is that when Hawkings said that we won the cosmic lottery, he was trying to answer that religious argument. In other words, yes, it's rare, it's remarkable that the world evolved the way it did, but hey, we won the lottery of evolution! Good for us, sucks for anyone who would have lived on Venus! Those guys lost!

That's where I disagree. Yes, we won relative to potential people on Venus, but we lost relative to what could have been, and perhaps what exists elsewhere. We know of but a tiny bit of our universe. So yes, we can look at the planets around us, and say, "We won $1 million, they all lost." But that's myopic. We have no idea what the potential winnings were.

I could be wrong here, but I think DA was making a case for the apparent tolerances believed to be a factor, not a case for divine intervention. Your argument is correct in the sense that, if given an infinity of choices, any outcome is possible, BUT... there's nothing to suggest that we had such an infinite menu. It's possible that this universe has no cyclical element, and that there isn't more than one. It's possible that our universe isn't infinite in extent, which closes off more 'chances'.

You seem to be talking about which planet, star-system, or galaxy we ended up in being all we know, not necessarily the best. DA, I think, is talking about matters such as physical constants which allowed for the formation of matter other than a soup or something equally unfriendly to thermodynamic processes that we associate with life.

[rootX]

I’m not saying that everything is perfect, but you are alive? Aren’t you?? Pick up a stone and experience the difference...

.....

Sure, it could be real fun to have $1 million or $5 billion, but if you look at the Pale Blue Dot and think one step further, you’ll realize that you already are a "cosmic gazillionaire"... enjoy! :wink:

I don't understand why atheists are so desperate to downgrade religions. Science vs religions is apples and oranges comparison. This is not right place to discuss the wonders of universe or to perform atheism propaganda .

[DevilsAvocado]

... I'm not trying to say that we should all be depressed, or think that life is terrible because it could be so much better. That's a completely different issue, one of optimism vs. pessimism. What I am saying is that there is no reason to think of what happened to us as remarkable.

Agree!

... DA, I think, is talking about matters such as physical constants which allowed for the formation of matter other than a soup or something equally unfriendly to thermodynamic processes that we associate with life.

Sort of...


I think we’re talking past each other, basically saying the same thing, but in different "frameworks":
1) The Big Bang and the evolution of Universe.

2) The possible evolution of different life forms and level of intelligence.

3) The odds in "Lottery of Life" for you being you.

There are enormous amounts of "peculiar coincidences" for life to arise on planet Earth, 3.5 billion years ago. But if we put these "peculiar coincidences" in the light of the fact that we know that there are at least 9 billion trillion other stars out there, and that most of them have several orbiting planets, and today 518 of these exoplanets has already been detected = the "strangeness" drops dramatically.

At 2 Dec 2010 Felisa Wolfe-Simon at NASA, announced that they have discovered a new form of life, the GFAJ-1 bacterium, that in lack of the usual phosphorus use arsenic in their DNA (normally toxic), which means that the normal chemical compounds of life as we know it on Earth is not mandatory = the "strangeness" drops even more.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/25/GFAJ-1_%28grown_on_arsenic%29.jpg/350px-GFAJ-1_%28grown_on_arsenic%29.jpg
Cells of bacterium GFAJ-1

Thus far no one can prove or disapprove that the Universe is infinite (most cosmologist think it is), but the possibility is there = "strangeness" is a dead parrot.

Therefore, as pointed out, life itself as a "phenomena" is not "strange" at all. One day we will (most) probably find out that the "life process" is as "natural" as when a protostar ignite at 10 million kelvins.

If there are other civilizations out there, absolutely nothing indicates that we are the most advanced. On the contrary, a majority are probably millions of years ahead of us.

Could there be real "Disney Worlds" out there? Where everyone looks like Angelina Jolie & Brad Pitt with the intelligence of Einstein2, and fly on their private unicorn to work...?

I have absolutely no idea. But I imagine that the chances they look like green slime with the intelligence of Einstein10 is probably equal. It really doesn’t bother me.

What I’m talking about is an understanding and appreciation for having the enormous luck of being alive as a consciousness human on this Pale Blue Dot.

The combinations of your mother’s eggs & father’s sperms during one year of "activity" alone are approx 20 billions, i.e. there could have been many many different "mathematicsma", but it was you.

This is nothing but pure chance and maybe we should give it a thought now and then... and realize that paradise is right under our feet (even if it’s a terrible mess now and then).

That’s all.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/97/The_Earth_seen_from_Apollo_17.jpg/450px-The_Earth_seen_from_Apollo_17.jpg

[DevilsAvocado]

I don't understand why atheists are so desperate to downgrade religions. Science vs religions is apples and oranges comparison. This is not right place to discuss the wonders of universe or to perform atheism propaganda .

With all due respect, if you call scientific facts "atheism propaganda", I don’t think "the problem" is on my behalf.

If I said something scientifically wrong, please correct me.

[1MileCrash]

No one will be rude to you for coming out as an atheist, in my experience.

However, if you're like me, you'll still be annoyed by people. Many Christians think that Christianity is fact and that an atheist is someone who just hasn't found God yet. They also think that atheism is someone who secretly believes in God but denies his existence anyway.

When they say "I'll be praying for you" or "maybe one day he will touch your heart" that's really just code for "you're wrong, but I know if I get into an actual debate on the subject I'll lose, therefore passive-aggression is my best bet."

Christians do not view atheism equally. That is fact. An atheist is someone who hasn't found "THE TRUTH" yet.

[Kevin_Axion]

Your point is confusing, are you an atheist?

[1MileCrash]

Your point is confusing, are you an atheist?

Yes, what about my post is confusing?

[Kevin_Axion]

You ended saying An atheist is someone who hasn't found "THE TRUTH" yet. so it sounds as though you think atheists haven't found the truth. I wasn't able to distinguish if that was your perspective or the perspective of Christians. I'm an agnostic, whenever I discuss this topic with my English teacher, she always referenced Pi Patel in the Life of Pi. Pi states that being an atheist is better then being an agnostic because at least they stand for something in life. I don't think the book is correct because agnostics are those who "suspend judgement" (Bertrand Russell) until any reasonable evidence shows truth to one side. My point being the books tries to establish a dichotomy and scrutinize those that haven't been convinced either way. This middle way is actually a necessary component in life because everyone is born an agnostic (a neutrality point) and everyone doubts to a degree in order to become an atheist or a believer.

[bp_psy]

You ended saying so it sounds as though you think atheists haven't found the truth. I wasn't able to distinguish if that was your perspective or the perspective of Christians. I'm an agnostic, whenever I discuss this topic with my English teacher, she always referenced Pi Patel in the Life of Pi. Pi states that being an atheist is better then being an agnostic because at least they stand for something in life. I don't think the book is correct because agnostics are those who "suspend judgement" (Bertrand Russell) until any reasonable evidence shows truth to one side. My point being the books tries to establish a dichotomy and scrutinize those that haven't been convinced either way. This middle way is actually a necessary component in life because everyone is born an agnostic (a neutrality point) and everyone doubts to a degree in order to become an atheist or a believer.

So do you "suspend judgment" on the notion that there is pink three headed physically undetectable flying uranium unicorn behind your back?

[Gokul43201]

PLEASE, let's not make this an argument about theism vs atheism vs agnosticism. I would suggest that if anyone here wishes to do anything other than address the OP's situation, this is not the thread for it.

Personally, I grew up in a third world country with a long religious tradition, yet never had to experience the kind of situation the OP is going through, so I can't quite relate to it. Specifically, I never really had a "coming out" moment - somewhere along the way (during my teenage years, I guess), my parents figured out I was atheist, and didn't make much of a deal about it. Having lived in the US for the past decade, I can understand that the situation can be somewhat different for many families here, but can't really offer any good advice.

[Jasongreat]

No one will be rude to you for coming out as an atheist, in my experience.

However, if you're like me, you'll still be annoyed by people. Many Christians think that Christianity is fact and that an atheist is someone who just hasn't found God yet. They also think that atheism is someone who secretly believes in God but denies his existence anyway.

When they say "I'll be praying for you" or "maybe one day he will touch your heart" that's really just code for "you're wrong, but I know if I get into an actual debate on the subject I'll lose, therefore passive-aggression is my best bet."

Christians do not view atheism equally. That is fact. An atheist is someone who hasn't found "THE TRUTH" yet.

And vice versa, your post could have as easily said:(bolded parts were my changes)

However, if you're like me, you'll still be annoyed by people. Many Atheists think that Atheism is fact and that a christian is someone who just hasn't found the "truth" yet. They also think that a christian is someone who secretly believes in science but denies its existence anyway.

When they say "maybe one day science will open your mind" that's really just code for "you're wrong, but I know if I get into an actual debate on the subject no body will win, therefore aggression is my best bet."

Atheists do not view christianity equally. That is fact. A christian is someone who hasn't found "THE TRUTH" yet.

The whole athiest vs christian debate can never be won, since neither side has concrete verifiable proof(atleast not yet), only their opinion based on faith. Atleast agonstics are open minded about it. Does it really matter what ones religious beliefs are? It seems to me atheists as well as christians dont ever consider the other sides argument because they dont understand how they can believe what they do so they go about trying to downgrade the others views.

To the OP: Congratulations on the beginning of becoming your own person, and developing your own beliefs apart from what you were taught. Is there really a need to throw it in the face of your parents though, especially if they might react badly which will cause more hard feelings. When I was 12 or thirteen I told my parents I wasnt going to church anymore, that was the end of the discussion. We have never sat down and had a discussion about it, cause there is no need and nothing good would ever come of it. I would never be able to change their beliefs, and they could never change mine. Live and let live. You may be interested in reading Thomas Paines "Age of Reason", I enjoyed it.

[1MileCrash]

And vice versa, your post could have as easily said:(bolded parts were my changes)

You can grammatically say that... but it makes it factually wrong.

I don't know any atheists who view christians as these poor, hopeless people condemned to a magical furnace who desperately need to find.. "science" or whatever your god replacement constituted in order to go to an equally magical paradise in the sky.

The whole athiest vs christian debate can never be won, since neither side has concrete verifiable proof(atleast not yet)

Occam's razor. Don't throw god into the mix if we have scientific theories that work unaided. There is no reason to prove there is no god just as there is no way for you to prove that there is no invisible pink unicorn in my garage. If a scientific process shows that there must be a god, then that is proof of god's existence. If there is none, then there is no reason to assume there is one. If I make the claim that there is an invisible pink unicorn in my garage, the burden of proof falls on me to show its existence, not on you to show its non-existence (a task which you'd likely find impossible.)

FYI everyone is a little agnostic, it only makes sense. That is, any fundamental christian will deny having even a sliver of doubt or agnosticism in their beliefs. However, you'd be hard-pressed to find more than a couple of atheists who will make the claim that there is absolutely, positively, no god, and that the existence of one is impossible. THAT is the difference.

[nismaratwork]

PLEASE, let's not make this an argument about theism vs atheism vs agnosticism. I would suggest that if anyone here wishes to do anything other than address the OP's situation, this is not the thread for it.

Personally, I grew up in a third world country with a long religious tradition, yet never had to experience the kind of situation the OP is going through, so I can't quite relate to it. Specifically, I never really had a "coming out" moment - somewhere along the way (during my teenage years, I guess), my parents figured out I was atheist, and didn't make much of a deal about it. Having lived in the US for the past decade, I can understand that the situation can be somewhat different for many families here, but can't really offer any good advice.

I think the advice for coming out as ANYTHING, theist, atheist, gay, straight... whatever... should be handled with care. You balance your own need to live an open and honest life with your privacy and need for your family. Some people can't live a lie, even for a few days, some won't, and some see it as the easiest way. As you say Gokul, by the time these things are issues, usually everyone involved knows SOMETHING is going on.

Hell, one of my best friends is a gay man born to very traditional Hindi parents... who would be outraged. He has never told them, and he's glad to have them in his life, BUT he pays a price in fear and anxiety every time he visits them. He worries they'll find out, AND learn that he's been lying. In what has to be a fit of irony, another friend was out of the closet as gay, then came out as bisexual. His gay friends rejected him so quickly I thought he had body odor, but his straight friends who already accepted something different didn't seem to care.

Maybe that grandmother who you are convinced will tell you that now you burn in hell, would really just have faith that her god will be loving and merciful, or that you'll eventually come to her way of thinking. It may be that someone apparently laid-back will have the WORST reaction. I'd just stick with the advice that this is about a personal decision, and not a crusade to disprove or challenge their life.


1MileCrash & Jasongreat: I'll be frank where Gokul was police... take it to PM guys, or make a new thread... don't get this one locked because you can't stay on topic.

[nismaratwork]

Agree!



Sort of...


I think we’re talking past each other, basically saying the same thing, but in different "frameworks":
1) The Big Bang and the evolution of Universe.

2) The possible evolution of different life forms and level of intelligence.

3) The odds in "Lottery of Life" for you being you.

There are enormous amounts of "peculiar coincidences" for life to arise on planet Earth, 3.5 billion years ago. But if we put these "peculiar coincidences" in the light of the fact that we know that there are at least 9 billion trillion other stars out there, and that most of them have several orbiting planets, and today 518 of these exoplanets has already been detected = the "strangeness" drops dramatically.

At 2 Dec 2010 Felisa Wolfe-Simon at NASA, announced that they have discovered a new form of life, the GFAJ-1 bacterium, that in lack of the usual phosphorus use arsenic in their DNA (normally toxic), which means that the normal chemical compounds of life as we know it on Earth is not mandatory = the "strangeness" drops even more.


Thus far no one can prove or disapprove that the Universe is infinite (most cosmologist think it is), but the possibility is there = "strangeness" is a dead parrot.

Therefore, as pointed out, life itself as a "phenomena" is not "strange" at all. One day we will (most) probably find out that the "life process" is as "natural" as when a protostar ignite at 10 million kelvins.

If there are other civilizations out there, absolutely nothing indicates that we are the most advanced. On the contrary, a majority are probably millions of years ahead of us.

Could there be real "Disney Worlds" out there? Where everyone looks like Angelina Jolie & Brad Pitt with the intelligence of Einstein2, and fly on their private unicorn to work...?

I have absolutely no idea. But I imagine that the chances they look like green slime with the intelligence of Einstein10 is probably equal. It really doesn’t bother me.

What I’m talking about is an understanding and appreciation for having the enormous luck of being alive as a consciousness human on this Pale Blue Dot.

The combinations of your mother’s eggs & father’s sperms during one year of "activity" alone are approx 20 billions, i.e. there could have been many many different "mathematicsma", but it was you.

This is nothing but pure chance and maybe we should give it a thought now and then... and realize that paradise is right under our feet (even if it’s a terrible mess now and then).

That’s all.


OK, I understand what you mean. I guess I tend to focus on the most basic elements before I consider lifestyle, but you have a very good point. I for one, am glad that I'm not a lamprey!

[DevilsAvocado]

I for one, am glad that I'm not a lamprey!

:smile:

Imagine an xterrestrial civilization of lampreys with the intelligence of Einstein10... and they ARE coming!!!

http://www.cnsweb.org/digestvertebrates/Photos/LampreyPacificMouth%20CL04_1c.jpg

AHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!! :surprised

(:biggrin:)

[nismaratwork]

:smile:

Imagine an xterrestrial civilization of lampreys with the intelligence of Einstein10... and they ARE coming!!!

http://www.cnsweb.org/digestvertebrates/Photos/LampreyPacificMouth%20CL04_1c.jpg

AHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!! :surprised

(:biggrin:)

Oh man... You find the best pictures. At least I know what I'll be having a nightmare about tonight... :wink:

[Borek]

Oh man... You find the best pictures. At least I know what I'll be having a nightmare about tonight... :wink:

I can only sympathize, I have this recurring dream about eating leeches http://planetsmilies.net/vomit-smiley-31.gif (http://planetsmilies.net)

[DevilsAvocado]

http://planetsmilies.net/vomit-smiley-31.gif

HAHAHAHALOLOLOLMAO!!!!!! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Best 'smile' ever!!!

[DevilsAvocado]

http://planetsmilies.net/alien-smiley-126.gif
Lamprey Saucer!!!!

[nismaratwork]

I can only sympathize, I have this recurring dream about eating leeches http://planetsmilies.net/vomit-smiley-31.gif (http://planetsmilies.net)

Oh wow... I'm, sorry man. REALLY sorry!

That is an amazing smiley however.

DA: Ha!

[Max™]

You know, the most amazing thing happened to me tonight. I was coming here, on the way to the lecture, and I came in through the parking lot. And you won't believe what happened. I saw a car with the license plate ARW 357. Can you imagine? Of all the millions of license plates in the state, what was the chance that I would see that particular one tonight? Amazing!

I love Feynman quotes, such a wonderful mix of brilliance with absurdity.

[DevilsAvocado]

Richard Feynman used to go up to people all the time and he'd say "You won't believe what happened to me today... you won't believe what happened to me" and people would say "What?" and he'd say "Absolutely nothing". Because we humans believe that everything that happens to us is special and significant. And that — and Carl Sagan wrote beautifully about that in The Demon-Haunted World — that is much of the source of religion. Everything that happens is unusual and I expect that the likelihood that Richard and I ever would've met. If you think about all the variables: the probability that we were in the same place at the same time, ate breakfast the same. Whatever. It's zero. Every event that happens has small probability... but it happens and then when it happens; if it's weird, if you dream one million nights and it's nonsense but one night you dream that your friend is gonna break his leg and the next day he breaks his arm... *sound of revelation* So the really thing that physics tell us about the universe is that it's big, rare event happens all the time — including life — and that doesn't mean it's special.


'A Universe From Nothing' by Lawrence Krauss, AAI 2009 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ImvlS8PLIo&hd=1)

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[DevilsAvocado]

I can only sympathize, I have this recurring dream about eating leeches http://planetsmilies.net/vomit-smiley-31.gif (http://planetsmilies.net)

You see Borek? If you have one million dreams about eating leeches it’s nonsense. You’ve got to trust science on this! :wink:

... even though I feel sympathy for your 'reactions' ... :yuck:

[lisab]

You know, the most amazing thing happened to me tonight. I was coming here, on the way to the lecture, and I came in through the parking lot. And you won't believe what happened. I saw a car with the license plate ARW 357. Can you imagine? Of all the millions of license plates in the state, what was the chance that I would see that particular one tonight? Amazing!

I love Feynman quotes, such a wonderful mix of brilliance with absurdity.

Can you imagine actually having ARW 357 on your car's license plate?! The value of your car would sky rocket!! Well...if only to a very small, dare-I-say select few potential buyers...:wink:

[DevilsAvocado]

Bidding! :wink:

[Chi Meson]

SatansGuacamole is quickly becoming my favorite PF member.

[Did I pronounce that correctly?]

[nismaratwork]

SatansGuacamole is quickly becoming my favorite PF member.

[Did I pronounce that correctly?]

:rofl:

That's going to be a PF classic quote, I predict.

[Max™]

Can you imagine actually having ARW 357 on your car's license plate?! The value of your car would sky rocket!! Well...if only to a very small, dare-I-say select few potential buyers...:wink:

Would be an interesting request for a plate number, embarrassingly geeky as well.

[mugaliens]

Can you imagine actually having ARW 357 on your car's license plate?

I'm sorry, but no. I am incapable of imagining any sort of thing.

"Air Refueling Wing? Is that what it stands for?

[Char. Limit]

I'm sorry, but no. I am incapable of imagining any sort of thing.

"Air Refueling Wing? Is that what it stands for?

It's the license plate mentioned by Richard Feynman in a famous quote by him.

[TheStatutoryApe]

I stopped going to church when I was little because I just didn't like it. Since my mom is not a very devout christian she did not care. She also never explained much to me about religion, I was just told I was christian and that's what I told people if asked. Sometime in grade school a girl in my class told me that I was not a true christian unless I believed Jesus was born of a virgin and sacraficed himself for my sins. my response was basically "Oh... Seriously? Well then I guess I'm not christian."
Currently I call myself "agnostic" and most people would probably consider me "atheist". I never really spoke to my family about my beliefs and I've never had any issues regarding it. Then again my family is not very close so it was easy to just not discuss it.
So that's my experience as a heathen in a christian family for what ever it is worth.

[KingNothing]

Honestly, I wish you the best. There are many things we can't change - the reactions of others being one of them. If they don't react supportively, all you can really do is remember that you did the right thing, and that's that.

[nismaratwork]

I stopped going to church when I was little because I just didn't like it. Since my mom is not a very devout christian she did not care. She also never explained much to me about religion, I was just told I was christian and that's what I told people if asked. Sometime in grade school a girl in my class told me that I was not a true christian unless I believed Jesus was born of a virgin and sacraficed himself for my sins. my response was basically "Oh... Seriously? Well then I guess I'm not christian."
Currently I call myself "agnostic" and most people would probably consider me "atheist". I never really spoke to my family about my beliefs and I've never had any issues regarding it. Then again my family is not very close so it was easy to just not discuss it.
So that's my experience as a heathen in a christian family for what ever it is worth.

Hmmm, I like your approach, but I'm sorry about your family.

[andiamaj1431]

i happened to be raised in a jehovahs witness household, and although my father was a non believer, when i told them i no longer had faith in god, well, lets just say, 3 months ago, i was in new jersey, now, i am live in florida with my atheist father and his chritsian wife, all i can say is, choose your words and actions wisely my friend, im just 17 btw

[DoggerDan]

I think most people are predisposed to believe one way or the other, although neither has much of anything to do with one's brilliance or lack thereof.

At 2.3% of the world's population, it's definitely a minority belief: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism#Demographics

[shashankac655]

i was never a religious person but i thought of atheism not before i was 14 , my parents tried to change me but they gave up because i was too stubborn and i was asking too many questions for which they didn't know any answers .
Now i am an agnostic ,what do you mean by atheism?

It is not as simple as "i don't believe in god ,so i am an atheist"
It depends on your definition of god. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_and_positive_atheism)
If god is according to you a creature that looks like a human but is immortal and has all kinds of powers then ,in that sense i am an atheist.
If god is according to you is a kind of undeniable logic under which the Universe works then i am an agnostic.

[DoggerDan]

Having run the gamut of having been a "true believer," then an agnostic, then an atheist, then back to rediscovering what it's really all about, I read the parade of opinions here with interest, to say the least.

Hm..