View Full Version : Stasis field
Dirk Bruere at Neopax
Oct24-04, 09:04 AM
<jabberwocky><div class="vbmenu_control"><a href="jabberwocky:;" onClick="newWindow=window.open('','usenetCode','toolbar=no, location=no,scrollbars=yes,resizable=yes,status=no ,width=650,height=400'); newWindow.document.write('<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Usenet ASCII</TITLE></HEAD><BODY topmargin=0 leftmargin=0 BGCOLOR=#F1F1F1><table border=0 width=625><td bgcolor=midnightblue><font color=#F1F1F1>This Usenet message\'s original ASCII form: </font></td></tr><tr><td width=449><br><br><font face=courier><UL><PRE>\n\n\nOne of the plot props of many SF stories is the statis field.\nEssentially, it is a volume wherein time no longer appears to pass.\nConsequently anything in the field will not change or decay. The ultimate fridge.\n\nCan anything be deduced about the requirements of such a (fictional) device?\nFor example, one might in principle use the Quantum Zeno Effect to create such a\ndevice. In which case, what can be said about the energy requirements of\n\'watching\' the interior?\n\nI was also wondering, from an intuitive POV, whether the Bekenstein Limit might\nbe involved in some way.\n\n--\nDirk\n\nThe Consensus:-\nThe political party for the new millenium\nhttp://www.theconsensus.org\n</UL></PRE></font></td></tr></table></BODY><HTML>');"> <IMG SRC=/images/buttons/ip.gif BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER ALT="View this Usenet post in original ASCII form"> View this Usenet post in original ASCII form </a></div><P></jabberwocky>One of the plot props of many SF stories is the statis field.
Essentially, it is a volume wherein time no longer appears to pass.
Consequently anything in the field will not change or decay. The ultimate fridge.
Can anything be deduced about the requirements of such a (fictional) device?
For example, one might in principle use the Quantum Zeno Effect to create such a
device. In which case, what can be said about the energy requirements of
'watching' the interior?
I was also wondering, from an intuitive POV, whether the Bekenstein Limit might
be involved in some way.
--
Dirk
The Consensus:-
The political party for the new millenium
http://www.theconsensus.org
Uncle Al
Oct25-04, 08:10 AM
<jabberwocky><div class="vbmenu_control"><a href="jabberwocky:;" onClick="newWindow=window.open('','usenetCode','toolbar=no, location=no,scrollbars=yes,resizable=yes,status=no ,width=650,height=400'); newWindow.document.write('<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Usenet ASCII</TITLE></HEAD><BODY topmargin=0 leftmargin=0 BGCOLOR=#F1F1F1><table border=0 width=625><td bgcolor=midnightblue><font color=#F1F1F1>This Usenet message\'s original ASCII form: </font></td></tr><tr><td width=449><br><br><font face=courier><UL><PRE>\n\n\n\nDirk Bruere at Neopax wrote:\n>\n> One of the plot props of many SF stories is the statis field.\n> Essentially, it is a volume wherein time no longer appears to pass.\n> Consequently anything in the field will not change or decay. The ultimate fridge.\n>\n> Can anything be deduced about the requirements of such a (fictional) device?\n> For example, one might in principle use the Quantum Zeno Effect to create such a\n> device. In which case, what can be said about the energy requirements of\n> \'watching\' the interior?\n>\n> I was also wondering, from an intuitive POV, whether the Bekenstein Limit might\n> be involved in some way.\n\nOne problem is obvious. Suppose the interior of a stasis field has\ntime passage at 10^-9 the ambient rate (31 years inside is one second\noutside). Both regions have a local 100 W bulb lighting them.\nSomebody is going to get fried unless the interface is utterly opaque\nto all EM radiation.\n\n--\nUncle Al\nhttp://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/\n(Toxic URL! Unsafe for children and most mammals)\nhttp://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/qz.pdf\n</UL></PRE></font></td></tr></table></BODY><HTML>');"> <IMG SRC=/images/buttons/ip.gif BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER ALT="View this Usenet post in original ASCII form"> View this Usenet post in original ASCII form </a></div><P></jabberwocky>Dirk Bruere at Neopax wrote:
>
> One of the plot props of many SF stories is the statis field.
> Essentially, it is a volume wherein time no longer appears to pass.
> Consequently anything in the field will not change or decay. The ultimate fridge.
>
> Can anything be deduced about the requirements of such a (fictional) device?
> For example, one might in principle use the Quantum Zeno Effect to create such a
> device. In which case, what can be said about the energy requirements of
> 'watching' the interior?
>
> I was also wondering, from an intuitive POV, whether the Bekenstein Limit might
> be involved in some way.
One problem is obvious. Suppose the interior of a stasis field has
time passage at 10^-9 the ambient rate (31 years inside is one second
outside). Both regions have a local 100 W bulb lighting them.
Somebody is going to get fried unless the interface is utterly opaque
to all EM radiation.
--
Uncle Al
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/
(Toxic URL! Unsafe for children and most mammals)
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/qz.pdf
Frank Hellmann
Oct27-04, 10:56 AM
<jabberwocky><div class="vbmenu_control"><a href="jabberwocky:;" onClick="newWindow=window.open('','usenetCode','toolbar=no, location=no,scrollbars=yes,resizable=yes,status=no ,width=650,height=400'); newWindow.document.write('<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Usenet ASCII</TITLE></HEAD><BODY topmargin=0 leftmargin=0 BGCOLOR=#F1F1F1><table border=0 width=625><td bgcolor=midnightblue><font color=#F1F1F1>This Usenet message\'s original ASCII form: </font></td></tr><tr><td width=449><br><br><font face=courier><UL><PRE>\n\n\n\nUncle Al <UncleAl0@hate.spam.net> wrote in message news:<417BF752.633C6A2A@hate.spam.net>...\n> Dirk Bruere at Neopax wrote:\n> >\n> > One of the plot props of many SF stories is the statis field.\n> > Essentially, it is a volume wherein time no longer appears to pass.\n> > Consequently anything in the field will not change or decay. The ultimate fridge.\n> >\n> > Can anything be deduced about the requirements of such a (fictional) device?\n> > For example, one might in principle use the Quantum Zeno Effect to create such a\n> > device. In which case, what can be said about the energy requirements of\n> > \'watching\' the interior?\n> >\n> > I was also wondering, from an intuitive POV, whether the Bekenstein Limit might\n> > be involved in some way.\n>\n> One problem is obvious. Suppose the interior of a stasis field has\n> time passage at 10^-9 the ambient rate (31 years inside is one second\n> outside). Both regions have a local 100 W bulb lighting them.\n> Somebody is going to get fried unless the interface is utterly opaque\n> to all EM radiation.\n\nEm is no problem in theory. Gravity is. As Einstein himself pointed\nout, the big difference between EM and GR waves is that you can put\nthe former in a box (or equivalently keep them out).\n\nHowever he is right about the quantum Zeno effect, if we\'d build a\nmeassurement apparatus which had the momentus state of the system we\nwant to keep as an eigenvector and meassured often enough this would\nin principle also prevent the system from interacting with photons or\ngravitons (should they exist).\n\nOf course thats a ridiculously impossible concept for an arbitrary\nnumber of reasons, and might even be conceptually impossible if deep\nentanglement between the system and the world exists, which is, for\nmacroscopic systems, probably inevietable.\n</UL></PRE></font></td></tr></table></BODY><HTML>');"> <IMG SRC=/images/buttons/ip.gif BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER ALT="View this Usenet post in original ASCII form"> View this Usenet post in original ASCII form </a></div><P></jabberwocky>Uncle Al <UncleAl0@hate.spam.net> wrote in message news:<417BF752.633C6A2A@hate.spam.net>...
> Dirk Bruere at Neopax wrote:
> >
> > One of the plot props of many SF stories is the statis field.
> > Essentially, it is a volume wherein time no longer appears to pass.
> > Consequently anything in the field will not change or decay. The ultimate fridge.
> >
> > Can anything be deduced about the requirements of such a (fictional) device?
> > For example, one might in principle use the Quantum Zeno Effect to create such a
> > device. In which case, what can be said about the energy requirements of
> > 'watching' the interior?
> >
> > I was also wondering, from an intuitive POV, whether the Bekenstein Limit might
> > be involved in some way.
>
> One problem is obvious. Suppose the interior of a stasis field has
> time passage at 10^-9 the ambient rate (31 years inside is one second
> outside). Both regions have a local 100 W bulb lighting them.
> Somebody is going to get fried unless the interface is utterly opaque
> to all EM radiation.
Em is no problem in theory. Gravity is. As Einstein himself pointed
out, the big difference between EM and GR waves is that you can put
the former in a box (or equivalently keep them out).
However he is right about the quantum Zeno effect, if we'd build a
meassurement apparatus which had the momentus state of the system we
want to keep as an eigenvector and meassured often enough this would
in principle also prevent the system from interacting with photons or
gravitons (should they exist).
Of course thats a ridiculously impossible concept for an arbitrary
number of reasons, and might even be conceptually impossible if deep
entanglement between the system and the world exists, which is, for
macroscopic systems, probably inevietable.
Dirk Bruere at Neopax
Oct27-04, 11:00 AM
<jabberwocky><div class="vbmenu_control"><a href="jabberwocky:;" onClick="newWindow=window.open('','usenetCode','toolbar=no, location=no,scrollbars=yes,resizable=yes,status=no ,width=650,height=400'); newWindow.document.write('<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Usenet ASCII</TITLE></HEAD><BODY topmargin=0 leftmargin=0 BGCOLOR=#F1F1F1><table border=0 width=625><td bgcolor=midnightblue><font color=#F1F1F1>This Usenet message\'s original ASCII form: </font></td></tr><tr><td width=449><br><br><font face=courier><UL><PRE>Uncle Al wrote:\n\n> Dirk Bruere at Neopax wrote:\n>\n>>One of the plot props of many SF stories is the statis field.\n>>Essentially, it is a volume wherein time no longer appears to pass.\n>>Consequently anything in the field will not change or decay. The ultimate fridge.\n>>\n>>Can anything be deduced about the requirements of such a (fictional) device?\n>>For example, one might in principle use the Quantum Zeno Effect to create such a\n>>device. In which case, what can be said about the energy requirements of\n>>\'watching\' the interior?\n>>\n>>I was also wondering, from an intuitive POV, whether the Bekenstein Limit might\n>>be involved in some way.\n>\n>\n> One problem is obvious. Suppose the interior of a stasis field has\n> time passage at 10^-9 the ambient rate (31 years inside is one second\n> outside). Both regions have a local 100 W bulb lighting them.\n> Somebody is going to get fried unless the interface is utterly opaque\n> to all EM radiation.\n\n[1 sec inside is 31 yrs outside but...]\nNot necessarily.\nThe quantum transitions leading to light emission within the statis field would\nalso be muted. However, as you point out, there will be problems with external\ninteractions. IMO excluding them is part of the technical problem in order to\nmaintain the area.\n\n--\nDirk\n\nThe Consensus:-\nThe political party for the new millenium\nhttp://www.theconsensus.org\n\n</UL></PRE></font></td></tr></table></BODY><HTML>');"> <IMG SRC=/images/buttons/ip.gif BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER ALT="View this Usenet post in original ASCII form"> View this Usenet post in original ASCII form </a></div><P></jabberwocky>Uncle Al wrote:
> Dirk Bruere at Neopax wrote:
>
>>One of the plot props of many SF stories is the statis field.
>>Essentially, it is a volume wherein time no longer appears to pass.
>>Consequently anything in the field will not change or decay. The ultimate fridge.
>>
>>Can anything be deduced about the requirements of such a (fictional) device?
>>For example, one might in principle use the Quantum Zeno Effect to create such a
>>device. In which case, what can be said about the energy requirements of
>>'watching' the interior?
>>
>>I was also wondering, from an intuitive POV, whether the Bekenstein Limit might
>>be involved in some way.
>
>
> One problem is obvious. Suppose the interior of a stasis field has
> time passage at 10^-9 the ambient rate (31 years inside is one second
> outside). Both regions have a local 100 W bulb lighting them.
> Somebody is going to get fried unless the interface is utterly opaque
> to all EM radiation.
[1 sec inside is 31 yrs outside but...]
Not necessarily.
The quantum transitions leading to light emission within the statis field would
also be muted. However, as you point out, there will be problems with external
interactions. IMO excluding them is part of the technical problem in order to
maintain the area.
--
Dirk
The Consensus:-
The political party for the new millenium
http://www.theconsensus.org
Volker Braun
Nov3-04, 09:39 AM
<jabberwocky><div class="vbmenu_control"><a href="jabberwocky:;" onClick="newWindow=window.open('','usenetCode','toolbar=no, location=no,scrollbars=yes,resizable=yes,status=no ,width=650,height=400'); newWindow.document.write('<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Usenet ASCII</TITLE></HEAD><BODY topmargin=0 leftmargin=0 BGCOLOR=#F1F1F1><table border=0 width=625><td bgcolor=midnightblue><font color=#F1F1F1>This Usenet message\'s original ASCII form: </font></td></tr><tr><td width=449><br><br><font face=courier><UL><PRE>I guess your machine would have a cooling problem. Take 10^20 atoms and\nmeasure them every 10^-10 s or so. This produces 10^30 bits/second. For\neach you\'ll have to invest at least an energy of about kT. So we\'re\ntalking about Gigawatts here in a volume of maybe 1 cm^3.\n\n-Volker\n\nOn Sun, 24 Oct 2004 14:04:19 +0000, Dirk Bruere at Neopax wrote:\n> For example, one might in principle use the Quantum Zeno Effect to\n> create such a device. In which case, what can be said about the energy\n> requirements of \'watching\' the interior?\n\n</UL></PRE></font></td></tr></table></BODY><HTML>');"> <IMG SRC=/images/buttons/ip.gif BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER ALT="View this Usenet post in original ASCII form"> View this Usenet post in original ASCII form </a></div><P></jabberwocky>I guess your machine would have a cooling problem. Take 10^20 atoms and
measure them every 10^-10 s or so. This produces 10^30 bits/second. For
each you'll have to invest at least an energy of about kT. So we're
talking about Gigawatts here in a volume of maybe 1 cm^3.
-Volker
On Sun, 24 Oct 2004 14:04:19 +0000, Dirk Bruere at Neopax wrote:
> For example, one might in principle use the Quantum Zeno Effect to
> create such a device. In which case, what can be said about the energy
> requirements of 'watching' the interior?
<jabberwocky><div class="vbmenu_control"><a href="jabberwocky:;" onClick="newWindow=window.open('','usenetCode','toolbar=no, location=no,scrollbars=yes,resizable=yes,status=no ,width=650,height=400'); newWindow.document.write('<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Usenet ASCII</TITLE></HEAD><BODY topmargin=0 leftmargin=0 BGCOLOR=#F1F1F1><table border=0 width=625><td bgcolor=midnightblue><font color=#F1F1F1>This Usenet message\'s original ASCII form: </font></td></tr><tr><td width=449><br><br><font face=courier><UL><PRE>"Dirk Bruere at Neopax"\n\n> One of the plot props of many SF stories is the statis field.\n> Essentially, it is a volume wherein time no longer appears to pass.\n> Consequently anything in the field will not change or decay.\n> The ultimate fridge.\n\nA dynamical system which passes through a succession of states,\nat constant time intervals, is a clock. Clocks measure times,\nand, coupled with other systems,can also measure the duration\nof a physical process. Clocks can also be used to control the\nduration of a process, or the evolution of a physical system.\nIn this case if a clock has a good time resolution, there is\nsome energy exchange between the clock and the controlled process,\nthat is the evolution of the physical system under control.\nBoth the evolution of the physical system and the clock\nare then perturbed, because when you include the clock mechanism\nin the Hamiltonian describing the quantum system to be observed,\nor to be controlled, you get this perturbation. If then a clock\nis too precise, a sort of quantum Zeno effect occurs - the evolution\nof the physical system under control may be even *halted*.\n\n[I do not know if the above was taken from a paper, i.e.\na paper by Asher Peres. In this case you can find the paper\nhere http://kh.bu.edu/qcl/ ]\n\nRegards,\ns.\n\n</UL></PRE></font></td></tr></table></BODY><HTML>');"> <IMG SRC=/images/buttons/ip.gif BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER ALT="View this Usenet post in original ASCII form"> View this Usenet post in original ASCII form </a></div><P></jabberwocky>"Dirk Bruere at Neopax"
> One of the plot props of many SF stories is the statis field.
> Essentially, it is a volume wherein time no longer appears to pass.
> Consequently anything in the field will not change or decay.
> The ultimate fridge.
A dynamical system which passes through a succession of states,
at constant time intervals, is a clock. Clocks measure times,
and, coupled with other systems,can also measure the duration
of a physical process. Clocks can also be used to control the
duration of a process, or the evolution of a physical system.
In this case if a clock has a good time resolution, there is
some energy exchange between the clock and the controlled process,
that is the evolution of the physical system under control.
Both the evolution of the physical system and the clock
are then perturbed, because when you include the clock mechanism
in the Hamiltonian describing the quantum system to be observed,
or to be controlled, you get this perturbation. If then a clock
is too precise, a sort of quantum Zeno effect occurs - the evolution
of the physical system under control may be even *halted*.
[I do not know if the above was taken from a paper, i.e.
a paper by Asher Peres. In this case you can find the paper
here http://kh.bu.edu/qcl/ ]
Regards,
s.
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