The Battle of the Prophecies

[Another God]

Can the truth of the Bible be shown through accuracy in prophecy?

This thread is meant to be a logical progression, one step at a time through this question, looking at one prophecy, evaluating what it means, what time it refers to, and how it accured in reality/completely failed to occur in reality.

The intent is that we have a pro-Bible person present an accurate, legitimate prophecy, and prove that the prophecy is as they say it is. After that prophecy is dealt with (accepted or denied), an anti-Bible person has a turn to present an obviously false prophecy, and prove that what was said in the Bible never happened in reality.



I will ask for moderator assistance here if I need to, I want this thread to be remain under complete control. Only ONE prophecy is to be looked at at any one time, and that prophecy must be dealt with until all parties involved are happy to agree that it either happened or it didn't, and that the Bible Legitimately prophecised it or didn't.

Let the battle begin...

[Another God]

To start this battle off, I am presenting a prophecy which is claimed to be accurate and modern on behalf of Dark Wing. I don't know much about this myself but here it is:

10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

(Full Chapter (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=DAN+12&language=english&version=KJV&showfn=on&showxref=on) )

Now, the daily sacrifice is supposed to be a well recognised christian site, a place where daily sacrifices took place all throughout the old testament. I don't know of this place, but I hope someone will be able to fill this gap in for me.

The fullfillment of the prophecy is supposed to be when the Muslims built the 'Dome of the Rock'(?) ontop of this holy place. The Muslim shrine being called in the prophecy the 'Abomination that maketh desolation'

That is the prophecy of which I am proposing to be foretold, and accurately fulfilled on behalf of Dark Wing.

The consequence of this prophecy, interestingly enough, is that if it is true, then we also know that the 'End of Days' will be 1290 after that (with only the blessed living to see 1335 after this abomination event...)

[Zero]

I don';t claim to understand any of this...can you clarify what this means, in simpler terms? Specifically, from what date does the "thousand two hundred and ninety days." refer to, and is that actually 1290 days? And then, does "thousand three hundred and five and thirty days" mean 1335 days, or 1305 years plus a month?

[Another God]

"At this hallowed site, known in Arabic as Haram al Sharif, the 9th Caliph, Abd al-Malik, built the great Dome of the Rock between 687 and 691"

Dome of the Rock (http://www.sacredsites.com/1st30/domeof.html)
So there can be no debate that this happened AFTER the prophecy was written in the bible.

Now, 687 + 1290 = 1977

Unless i have forgotten to carry a one somewhere, thats not a good sign for the prophecy...

so 1977 - 1981 (oohhh... I was born in 81!!!!)
or
687 + 1335 = 2022
so 2022 - 2026

Hmm, well, looking at the prophecy, it actually says nothing about what happens 1290 days afterwards...it only says that you're blessed if you see 1335...



well, anyway. That site has a lot of really good information, but it doesn't make reference to there being any 'sacrifice' relation of the site. Someone still needs to make that connection more apparent for my liking. Without that, there is no prophecy.

[Another God]

Originally posted by Zero
from what date does the "thousand two hundred and ninety days." refer to
Obviously this is answered in my last post with one possible actual answer, but from the passage itself, it refers to whatever date is 1290 days after the "time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up."

and is that actually 1290 days?What else would it be? I don't like the bible any more than you do zero, but don't go trying to make it seem more vague than it is. It isn't fair.

And then, does "thousand three hundred and five and thirty days" mean 1335 days, or 1305 years plus a month? What is the difference?

[Zero]

Originally posted by Another God
"At this hallowed site, known in Arabic as Haram al Sharif, the 9th Caliph, Abd al-Malik, built the great Dome of the Rock between 687 and 691"

Dome of the Rock (http://www.sacredsites.com/1st30/domeof.html)
So there can be no debate that this happened AFTER the prophecy was written in the bible.

Now, 687 + 1290 = 1977

Unless i have forgotten to carry a one somewhere, thats not a good sign for the prophecy...

so 1977 - 1981 (oohhh... I was born in 81!!!!)
or
687 + 1335 = 2022
so 2022 - 2026

Hmm, well, looking at the prophecy, it actually says nothing about what happens 1290 days afterwards...it only says that you're blessed if you see 1335...



well, anyway. That site has a lot of really good information, but it doesn't make reference to there being any 'sacrifice' relation of the site. Someone still needs to make that connection more apparent for my liking. Without that, there is no prophecy.

This sounds like selective application. Unless there is something more specific, I'm sure there could be an event in almost any year that could be associated with a timeframe listed in the Bible. You can then 'cheat', and 'prove' the prophesy to be accurate.

[Another God]

Originally posted by Zero
This sounds like selective application. Unless there is something more specific, I'm sure there could be an event in almost any year that could be associated with a timeframe listed in the Bible. You can then 'cheat', and 'prove' the prophesy to be accurate.
OK, Zero, Like I said: I don't know about the 'Daily sacrifice' phrase, but maybe someone else out there does. DW tells me that the place where the Dome of the Rock was built was a biblical site for the Daily Sacrifice.

I don't know, but I have given all I can give, and now we await conformation/denial of the daily sacrifice element. That will basically give us what we need to know. If this site is where christians practiced daily sacrifices for thousands of years, and then the muslims built a huge temple on that site, I think it seems reasonable to say that 'The abomination that causes desolation' would refer to something like that.

SO please...please please.. stop pointing out all of the potential problems, and the bits which you don't liek, and the bits which could be made up, and how there could be errors with the application etc etc etc, because I know. I know, i know i know.... I don't want this thread to be full of posts trying to tell people how things 'Might be' until all of the facts are out. So unless you have something specific to say about the prophecy, then please wait until the discussion of the facts comes up.

We haven't got all of the facts on this prophecy yet. Come back then.

[Zero]

Originally posted by Another God
OK, Zero, Like I said: I don't know about the 'Daily sacrifice' phrase, but maybe someone else out there does. DW tells me that the place where the Dome of the Rock was built was a biblical site for the Daily Sacrifice.

I don't know, but I have given all I can give, and now we await conformation/denial of the daily sacrifice element. That will basically give us what we need to know. If this site is where christians practiced daily sacrifices for thousands of years, and then the muslims built a huge temple on that site, I think it seems reasonable to say that 'The abomination that causes desolation' would refer to something like that.

SO please...please please.. stop pointing out all of the potential problems, and the bits which you don't liek, and the bits which could be made up, and how there could be errors with the application etc etc etc, because I know. I know, i know i know.... I don't want this thread to be full of posts trying to tell people how things 'Might be' until all of the facts are out. So unless you have something specific to say about the prophecy, then please wait until the discussion of the facts comes up.

We haven't got all of the facts on this prophecy yet. Come back then.

Ok, can do...I don't want to toss a wrench in your deal.

[kat]

Okay, I'll give this a small shot (it's not anything I'm really UP on but...[;)] )

I think that it's first important to discuss what "sacrifice" means in this instance. Neither Daniel 11:31 nor 12:11 mention burnt offering or sacrifice as referred to in the O.T.. The Hebrew used is HaTamid, which translated means the continual or constant, always, as in daily. This could possibly refer to the daily sacrifice of burnt offering as would be assumed except that Daniel 9:27 does not mention olat tamid or burnt offering which would be sacrificed twice daily, or mincha the daily meal offering which is made in the morning and afternoon, or even zavach which is the slaughterd sacrifice.So we can assume it is something which is not necessarily a burnt animal sacrifice which is offered up there daily, and this type of day to day offering will be made to exist no longer.

The Jews have been practising HaTamid since the Babylonian captivity. This has been continual an has never ceased, it can be observed at the Western Wall of the Second Temple in Jerusalem. The prayers of Israel are at the time of the morning and evening sacrifices, and at the hour of the burning of incense, at 3:00 in the afternoon. In the Bible Daniel prayed 3 times a day at the same time periods that the daily oblations were to be offered in the Temple. Ever since the destruction of the Second Temple and the Dispersion of the Jews they have practiced Daniel’s "mincha".

The Western Wall sits under the Dome of the Rock, which I believe was built on top of the site of the second temple. The Muslim's call this the al-Buraq Wall because, I believe, the Prophet Mohammad flew from Mecca to Jerusalem and tied some sort of two-winged animal (al-Buraq) to the wall before ascending to heaven to speak to God for the first time.
The Muslims consider the al-buraq Wall which is also part of the western wall of al-Aqsa mosque and all the walls of al-Aqsa as part of the Islamic religious trust, belonging only to Muslims.
The Jews call the mosque compound Temple Mount and worship it as the site where the biblical temples stood. It is Judaism's holiest site.

The rock from which Muslims believe Mohammad ascended to heaven in the seventh century is today known as the centrepiece of the Dome of the Rock.
This is perhaps one of the most difficult issues in any peaceful resolution that might be found between palestinians and israeli's.

[kat]

A possible date could also be during the period that the Egyptian Caliphs took over the area (strict islam sect). But, I don't believe that prayer was actually interupted at the Western wall at that point. It was interupted for Christian pilgrimages during the invasion of turks but I still do not believe that Jews were prohibited, I think they were well favored by the Turkish ruler. I could be mistaken. I'm not sure what the dates were, but they were much later then the date you used above.
During the 1947-48 War for Israel's independence the wall was taken and controled by the Arab armies of Jordan. The Jews were not allowed access to the wall, later after the 1967 Six Day War, Israel gained control of the Wall and access was again opened to the Jews.

[LURCH]

Originally posted by Zero
This sounds like selective application. Unless there is something more specific, I'm sure there could be an event in almost any year that could be associated with a timeframe listed in the Bible. You can then 'cheat', and 'prove' the prophesy to be accurate.

Regarding the "something more specific":

When the site in the link speaks of the building of the Dome of the Rock, it says "At this Hallowed site...". The "hallowed site" being reffered to is the location of the temple of Jerusalem (King Solomon's Temple), given in the prophecy as the exact location of "the abomination that brings desolation". Given in this detail, it is quite understandable to interpret the building of the Dome as the fulfillment of this prophecy. However, it is my opinion that this determination was made in error, probably by people who were trying to avoid the pitfall of interpreting prophecy too literally. Bible prophecy is, after all, filled with metaphors and symbolism.

One excellent example of this is the prophecy of Israel "becoming a nation" again (I know you didn't want to discuss other prophecys yet, but I think this one is pertinent to the current discussion). Many Bible scholars thought this to be a metaphorical reference to the Christian Church. However, we now know this prediction to be literal.

Given this new information, it would seem to me that the coming of the "abomination" predicted in the books of Daniel and Revelation cannot take place until after Israel became a nation (May 14, 1948). By this interpretation, it would appear that a Jewish Temple will once again stand at that location. It is this Temple which will be usurped by the so-called "man of evil", and set up as a place in which he himself is to be worshiped as God. This event appears to take place in the middle up a time period Christians refer to as "the tribulation", a seven-year period during which many prophecies will be fulfilled. When these "seven years" begin, the Jewish Temple will be standing. In the middle of the seven years, several changes are foretold, one of which is the "abomination that brings desolation", which will stand from that time until the end of the tribulation, or 3 1/2 years (about 1290 days).

As I have stated in other discussions, once a prophecy is made only three possibilities remain:

A) the prophecy has been fulfilled

B) the prophecy has not yet been fulfilled, but will be

C) the prophecy is false.

As I interpret this prophecy, only B and C remain.

[Another God]

oh wow.. I only just realised that it said 1290 DAYS.

HAHAHAHA....hmmmm..that changes that completely doesn't it?

Thanks Lurch.

[Zero]

Originally posted by Another God
oh wow.. I only just realised that it said 1290 DAYS.

HAHAHAHA....hmmmm..that changes that completely doesn't it?

Thanks Lurch.

You missed when I asked you about that?[6)]

[LURCH]

Originally posted by Another God
oh wow.. I only just realised that it said 1290 DAYS.

HAHAHAHA....hmmmm..that changes that completely doesn't it?

Thanks Lurch.

Not such a big mistake. As I mentioned earlier, there is a danger in enterpreting Bible prophecy too litterally. So, taking the word "day" to mean year could actually be a correct approach. The word "day" could mean "year", "generation" or simply,"time-period". This, BTW, is supported wihtin the text itself, so you don't have to believe in prophecy fullfillment to apply it. For example, the "seven years" to which I reffered earlier is elsewhere called the "day of Abraham's distress" or "...Abraham's trouble".

That's not so different from modern usage, I suppose. When somebody says, "back in my day..." you don't start wondering "which day was yours? Was it a weekday or a Saturday..." or stuff like that. I think that the "days" reffered to in this passage are litteral, but they might not be.

[radagast]

Lurch and AG,
The problem of using this type of prophecy to prove anything has one flaw. Since you are not speaking of exact literal interpretations (at least according to Lurch), then interpretation is very important. The interpretations need to be a commonly accepted meanings, accepted by most biblical scholars, otherwise you may be falling into the trap of interpreting the bible to fit today's known facts. Something, I feel, happens all to often with Nostradamus's writings.

[LURCH]

Originally posted by radagast
Lurch and AG,
The problem of using this type of prophecy to prove anything has one flaw. Since you are not speaking of exact literal interpretations (at least according to Lurch), then interpretation is very important. The interpretations need to be a commonly accepted meanings, accepted by most biblical scholars, otherwise you may be falling into the trap of interpreting the bible to fit today's known facts.

True, it does make it hard to use prophecy to "predict" the future in any detail. The meanings of many prophecies become clear only after the fact. But the interpretation I have mentioned regardiong this prophecy is widely held, though not universally, and have at least some rationale to back them up. For example, the reason I and many others take the "1290 days" to be literal is because an event fitting the same description is said to occur in the middle of the "seven years". Elsewhere, this "abomination" is said to go on for "a time, times, and a half a time" (that's 1T + at least 2T + 1/2T) suggesting, if not demanding, 3 1/2 T. Taken in the context of other statements that it would be "1290 days", or "at the midpoint of the seven years", it does not seem too much of the stretch to say that the value of T is one year.

Something, I feel, happens all to often with Nostradamus's writings.

Whole different kettle fish; the writings of Nostradamus are re-written to fit today's known facts. I think we can all agree that that is not being done with the Bible. Or is there still some question as to the Bible "changing its story" over time?

[Another God]

I just want to put everyones fears to rest once again: I do not intend to let any 'Fitting of the facts to the event' through in this thread. I want solid evidence from both sides to justify any interpretations, not just fitting the possible interpretations with events.

OK? So don't suggest anymore that this could be a problem, because it isn't going to happen. not on my watch.

Now, I have spoken to DW, and she says that days is to be interpretted years (I laughed at her) ...because... In the old days any long period of time was expressed as days even though they meant years.... I expressed my dislike of this, but she claimed that this is not a phenomenon only present in the bible, but has actually been used in Astronomy all throughout history, even into modern times and is still used.

Does anyone know of the term 'Days' being used to express years? A solid reference of example would be nice.
Summary
OK, so far, we still need to verify that the place the Dome of the Rock was built on = 'The Daily Sacrifice'
We need to verify that Days can realistically be interpretted to = Years.
And I would like some reason to suspect that this prophecy even refers to the Dome Of The Rock. (this depends on how good the 'Daily Sacrifice' point is. If there is one location definitively known as 'The Daily Sacrifice' throughout the bible, and it happens to be the precise place the Dome was built, then i think that that is good enough for me.)

If all these factors came together, I would be convinced for sure. Everyone happy with that?

[FZ+]

Then, by claiming that there is an equal (or greater) probability that days in fact means... days, I resubmit this as a false prophecy.

[Iacchus32]

Originally posted by Another God
I just want to put everyones fears to rest once again: I do not intend to let any 'Fitting of the facts to the event' through in this thread. I want solid evidence from both sides to justify any interpretations, not just fitting the possible interpretations with events.

OK? So don't suggest anymore that this could be a problem, because it isn't going to happen. not on my watch.

Now, I have spoken to DW, and she says that days is to be interpretted years (I laughed at her) ...because... In the old days any long period of time was expressed as days even though they meant years.... I expressed my dislike of this, but she claimed that this is not a phenomenon only present in the bible, but has actually been used in Astronomy all throughout history, even into modern times and is still used.

Does anyone know of the term 'Days' being used to express years? A solid reference of example would be nice.
Thou also, son of man, take thee a tile, and lay it before thee, and pourtray upon it the city, even Jerusalem: And lay siege against it, and build a fort against it, and cast a mount against it; set the camp also against it, and set battering rams against it round about. Moreover take thou unto thee an iron pan, and set it for a wall of iron between thee and the city: and set thy face against it, and it shall be besieged, and thou shalt lay siege against it. This shall be a sign to the house of Israel. Lie thou also upon thy left side, and lay the iniquity of the house of Israel upon it: according to the number of the days that thou shalt lie upon it thou shalt bear their iniquity. For I have laid upon thee the years of their iniquity, according to the number of the days, three hundred and ninety days: so shalt thou bear the iniquity of the house of Israel. And when thou hast accomplished them, lie again on thy right side, and thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year. Therefore thou shalt set thy face toward the siege of Jerusalem, and thine arm shall be uncovered, and thou shalt prophesy against it. And, behold, I will lay bands upon thee, and thou shalt not turn thee from one side to another, till thou hast ended the days of thy siege. (Ezekiel 4:1-8).

[radagast]

Post moved because it was felt to stray from the narrow focus of this thread.

[Dark Wing]

Originally posted by Another God
To start this battle off, I am presenting a prophecy which is claimed to be accurate and modern on behalf of Dark Wing. I don't know much about this myself but here it is:

10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

(Full Chapter (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=DAN+12&language=english&version=KJV&showfn=on&showxref=on) )

Now, the daily sacrifice is supposed to be a well recognised christian site, a place where daily sacrifices took place all throughout the old testament. I don't know of this place, but I hope someone will be able to fill this gap in for me.

The fullfillment of the prophecy is supposed to be when the Muslims built the 'Dome of the Rock'(?) ontop of this holy place. The Muslim shrine being called in the prophecy the 'Abomination that maketh desolation'

That is the prophecy of which I am proposing to be foretold, and accurately fulfilled on behalf of Dark Wing.

The consequence of this prophecy, interestingly enough, is that if it is true, then we also know that the 'End of Days' will be 1290 after that (with only the blessed living to see 1335 after this abomination event...)


Ok, well, now we have started this, let me straighten a few facts up.

1. the daily sacrifice was not a site. it was a ritual done in the temple, an animal sacrifice to God. it was done by the high priests etc. the sacrifice was taken away when the Babylonians came down and took them back to babylon. the impliments used for the sacrifice were confiscated and the only people who were alowed to / knew how to make new ones were killed. This was to supress the religion of the jews in order to intergrate them into babylonian society. (anyone who has read any of Daniel knows that this did not work, but that is beside the point).

So from the time that this happened (a date for a future post, as i am here without my notes, unaware that i was to post all of this tonight, i thought i had a little more time to prepare for this so called "battle"), it was predicted that 1290 days an abomination that causes desolation would be set up. Now, please tell me what would be a bigger abomination than to have the musilims set up thier own temple up on the temple site of solomon?

Now for the really interesting bit. the "12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days." bit lands on the year 2025 (from memory, might be 2024, let me check my notes on that). this refers to the 'end of days' time period, and it is not clear what this date means. From other writings dealing with this period, that date, on the time line (yes, we have a time line writtern out, and things are getting crossed off, not added or changed, might i add to suit what is actually happening in world politics) it could mean the begining of the 7 year war, the end of the 7 year war, or the begining of the 3 year period that leads to the 7 year war. (this 3 year period is when the jews have basicly gone into hiding, till they are called back and re-take jeruselem). After this a huge war will break out, and all kinds of wierd stuff is going to happen, resulting in the Muslims being the 1st to join sides with the Jews as they go to take over the world, basicly.

The thing to understand about the 1290 days phrophecy is that it is at the end of a 3 chapter description of what is going to happen from the fall of the babylonian empire up till the end of days. it starts half way through Daniel. It names countires and people, and i will be more than happy to give you all the quotes once i have my notes.

[kat]

Originally posted by Another God

OK, so far, we still need to verify that the place the Dome of the Rock was built on = 'The Daily Sacrifice'
We need to verify that Days can realistically be interpretted to = Years.
And I would like some reason to suspect that this prophecy even refers to the Dome Of The Rock. (this depends on how good the 'Daily Sacrifice' point is. If there is one location definitively known as 'The Daily Sacrifice' throughout the bible, and it happens to be the precise place the Dome was built, then i think that that is good enough for me.)


Well, as I pointed out...the western wall (or wailing wall) would fit, this is where daily sacrficial prayers are made 3 times a day..to this day, except for the 2 decades of jordanian occupation. Although, there are jews who believe the third temple needs to be rebuilt and the blood sacrifices resumed..this involves the purification of the temple with the red heiffer etc. Some researchers believe that the actual spot that the holiest of holy's or the inner sanctuary existed was slightly to the left of the actual dome of the rock.
The wailing wall is known to be the outside wall of the temple compound. If we look at KJV Daniel 9:27 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=daniel+9%3A27) which refers to the abomination in associate to the temple site "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate." Overspreading is translated from the word "kanaph" which refers to a wing, edge, border etc. Why the KJV translated this to overspreading I don't know, unless they understood it a spreading of wings,as in a bird. It's later used correctly in the "four corners of the earth".
The hebrew interlinear english reference section translates it as "corner" Daniel 9:27 and the NIV translates it as wing (wing of a building not wing of a bird).
There were 4 sections to the temple, they were the north, east, west and south. One section of the outer wall to the compound is still standing, that is the "wailing" or "western" wall that I mentioned previously. In Daniel 8:11 he does not mention the trampling of the temple, instead he uses the term " "the place of His sanctuary was cast down."
In Daniel 9:26 it tells of the destruction of the Temple by the Romans in 70 AD, followed by verse 27 which speaks of the Abominations being set up on the "edge". Notice how there is nothing said about the reconstruction of the building between its destruction and the Abominations.

[Another God]

READ THIS POST
This thread IS NOT for the discussion of Prophecies in general. It IS NOT for various ramblings, for tid bits of speculation, or any other insights that have nothing to do with the prophecy at hand.

This thread is intented to take a critical, in depth look at one selected Biblical prophecy at a time, and make a group decision as to whether there is any reasonable claim of accurate fulfillment of that prophecy. Without bias. And that is all.

No more speculation! Just claims about what the prophecy in question means with evidence to back up the claims, followed by on topic discussion about the credibility of the claim/evidence.

[kat]

Originally posted by Another God
READ THIS POST
This thread IS NOT for the discussion of Prophecies in general. It IS NOT for various ramblings, for tid bits of speculation, or any other insights that have nothing to do with the prophecy at hand.

This thread is intented to take a critical, in depth look at one selected Biblical prophecy at a time, and make a group decision as to whether there is any reasonable claim of accurate fulfillment of that prophecy. Without bias. And that is all.

No more speculation! Just claims about what the prophecy in question means with evidence to back up the claims, followed by on topic discussion about the credibility of the claim/evidence.


Are you referring to my post?
Your statement " OK, so far, we still need to verify that the place the Dome of the Rock was built on = 'The Daily Sacrifice'"

The western wall, which, as far as the modern Jews are concerned, is the Jewish sanctuary. If you don't "buy" this then I urge you to be the one to convince a religious Jew that the ha-kotel ha-ma'aravi or western wall, as in THE western wall of the temple is not their sanctuary, or that the prayers and petitions offered on its patio (except for the 2 decades of jordanian occupation) are not THE "Daily sacrifices and offerings" to God mentioned.

[Laser Eyes]

You picked a hard one to start with AG. Are you sure you want to continue with this one?

[FZ+]

Genesis 26:4
And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
Let's see.. to cover this by 2025 and make it in time for doomsday, the Jews have to give birth to (7 * 10^22)/22 = 3*10^21 children per year. I'd say the probability of this is low. Even if we count the sons of Jacob as inclusive of christians, we still don't account for such long numbers, or all countries.

[Iacchus32]

Originally posted by FZ+
Let's see.. to cover this by 2025 and make it in time for doomsday, the Jews have to give birth to (7 * 10^22)/22 = 3*10^21 children per year. I'd say the probability of this is low. Even if we count the sons of Jacob as inclusive of christians, we still don't account for such long numbers, or all countries. I think this is merely figurative for "inumerable," and wasn't meant to be taken literally.

Aside from that, what does it have to do with the prophecy at hand?

[FZ+]

Just fulfilling the challenge of naming a false prophecy to each supposedly real one.

But if you look at this one as figurative, then what justifies the interpretation you make of the other so-called "prophecies"?

[Iacchus32]

Originally posted by FZ+
Just fulfilling the challenge of naming a false prophecy to each supposedly real one.

But if you look at this one as figurative, then what justifies the interpretation you make of the other so-called "prophecies"? Did you know that the number of your posts, 1260, also signifies a time, a times and a half a time, or three-and-a-half years? And is also a significant number listed in Revelation 11, 12 and possibly 13, in conjucntion with the number 42, which is also three-and-a-half years? (42 x 30 = 1260). Just thought you might like to know. [;)]

Actually the thing about this particular prophesy is that there is nothing to compare the number of stars to, except what is innumerable, unless of course it had things like days and numbers associated with it like the prophecy above (which could then be interpreted in different ways).

So, did they actually come to a conclusion here? It seems like they were getting close, but I was having a hard time following the whole thing.


P.S. I checked your last post (#1260), which was 'Smart' doll can see and read (http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=62524#post62524). It's still interesting nonetheless.

[megashawn]

Wow, thats so weird. I just speant $12.60 at lunch.


(this 3 year period is when the jews have basicly gone into hiding, till they are called back and re-take jeruselem). After this a huge war will break out, and all kinds of wierd stuff is going to happen, resulting in the Muslims being the 1st to join sides with the Jews as they go to take over the world, basicly.

I may be confused, but is this something that is supposed to happen? You do of course know there is no way that would happen, don't you?

I mean, am I mistaken here? Is it true that if the middle east combined forces, they actually could take over the world?

[Iacchus32]

Did anyone mention that the Dome of the Rock was built over the rock where Abraham nearly sacrificed his son Isaac? Would that have anything to do with the "daily sacrifice?"

http://www.execulink.com/~wblank/domerock.htm

[Another God]

No Kat, i was refering to posts which are the dead opposite of your posts. You seem to be the only person actually trying to help out on this thread so far, which is quite frustrating from my point of view. I wish I had mentor powers just for this thread....

Did you know that the number of your posts, 1260, Iachus, please delete this post. No one cares, and it is not on topic.

Lasare Eyes, I believe this is no harder than any other prophecy in the Bible, and DW assures me that there is nothing hard about this one. People are just making it seem harder than it needs to be. And FZ+ as much as I appreciate your on topic thoughts, don't worry about figurative words or meanings etc, just concentrate on what is said in the quote, and we will figure out what it ACTUALLY means. Try helping the process rather than standing on the sideline predicting our doom.

Did anyone mention that the Dome of the Rock was built over the rock where Abraham nearly sacrificed his son Isaac?
DW tells me that I have to get it out of your heads that the daily sacrifice refers to a place. It actually refers to the fact that the Jews had their ability to make a daily sacrifice taken away from them. So the phrase is a time thing, not a place thing.


SOOOOO.....
Does anyone have information about when, in history, the Jews have had all of their sacrifice capabilites taken away from them? By invasion, by slavery, by whatever. How often does this happen? Has it happened at all? etc

Secondly: We are in a place called Physics Forums, surely someone here deals in astronomy and the history of astronomy. Perhaps one of these people knows about people expressing years as days many many years ago? DW assures me that in the old days they used to do this (ie: Not just in the Bible.) So I seek proof.

Please try to help out this time, rather than just throwing useless comments around??? [g)] please?

[kat]

Originally posted by Another God

DW tells me that I have to get it out of your heads that the daily sacrifice refers to a place. It actually refers to the fact that the Jews had their ability to make a daily sacrifice taken away from them. So the phrase is a time thing, not a place thing. I think she is probably referring to Jesus having been crucified as the end of the need for sacrifice, but then that would mean the Christians had their ability to make daily sacrifice taken away, not the Jews as the Jews still make their daily sacrifices to this very day (as I pointed out)


SOOOOO.....
Does anyone have information about when, in history, the Jews have had all of their sacrifice capabilites taken away from them? By invasion, by slavery, by whatever. How often does this happen? Has it happened at all? etc As I mentioned above, DW is probably suggesting this is a referral to Christ by his sacrifice having taken away the sacrifices and ceremonies of the Law. Many believe this is yet to happen, and it refers to the present day Israel and the Western Wall.

Secondly: We are in a place called Physics Forums, surely someone here deals in astronomy and the history of astronomy. Perhaps one of these people knows about people expressing years as days many many years ago? DW assures me that in the old days they used to do this (ie: Not just in the Bible.) So I seek proof. Well..I believe that there are times when day may mean year but in these cases I think we would see yowm (day) in the singular with an attached infinitive used to indicate an extended period of time. I don't believe this is the case in this instance. At any rate if it is meant to be a year or an extended period of time you should be able to tell from the context. Odd that earlier in the same chapter they would express year as "time" (12:7 that it shall be for a time, times, and an half) and then Day as year just a few verses later. It doesn't seem to fit IMO.

[Iacchus32]

Originally posted by Another God
Does anyone have information about when, in history, the Jews have had all of their sacrifice capabilites taken away from them? By invasion, by slavery, by whatever. How often does this happen? Has it happened at all? etcYou asked for a specific time frame for when the daily sacrifice was taken away? Then this seems to be referring to that here. And yet, I'm not sure it's even the same prophecy? However, you might be intrigued to find out what I've discovered below ... and all I can say is wow! [8)]

3 Then I lifted up mine eyes, and saw, and, behold, there stood before the river a ram which had two horns: and the two horns were high; but one was higher than the other, and the higher came up last.
4 I saw the ram pushing westward, and northward, and southward; so that no beasts might stand before him, neither was there any that could deliver out of his hand; but he did according to his will, and became great.
5 And as I was considering, behold, an he goat came from the west on the face of the whole earth, and touched not the ground: and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes.
6 And he came to the ram that had two horns, which I had seen standing before the river, and ran unto him in the fury of his power.
7 And I saw him come close unto the ram, and he was moved with choler against him, and smote the ram, and brake his two horns: and there was no power in the ram to stand before him, but he cast him down to the ground, and stamped upon him: and there was none that could deliver the ram out of his hand.
8 Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.
9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.
10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.
11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.
12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.
13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?
14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed. (Daniel 8:3-14).Doesn't this kind of sound like the rise of Greece (the he goat) during the 6th century BC? Who, after the Jews were released and allowed to return to their homeland (beginning in 538 BC), got into a scuffle with Persia (i.e., the ram) and eventually conquered them in 479 BC (have a chapter in my book named after that number (http://www.dionysus.org/x0801.html) by the way) before entering and Hellenizing the Holy Land via the conquests of Alexander?

Whereas when you think about it -- "the Jews" -- who, didn't actually exist as a people until after The Captivity, have been under the dominion of someone else ever since their release. So in this respect they haven't been allowed to worship "their God" in the way that they deem fit, in which case you could say their daily sacrifice was taken away.

And, since the Jews were dispersed after the Temple was destroyed in 70 AD, you could say this condition has existed since just prior to their release from Babylon, let's come up with a date say, 543 BC -- which, if we extend by 2,300 years (remember the day for a year thing?), we come up with the year 1757 BC. And guess what? This is the very year that the Last Judgment -- as foretold in the book of Revelation -- was supposed to occur, and a "New Heaven and Earth" were formed (more so in the spiritual world), hence the establishment of the "New Church." And so it is the "Christian Era," which has existed since 543 BC, i.e., under the dominion of someone else (and remember, Jesus was a Jew), has now come to a close, and the Jews are no longer under its dominion.

All of which has been thoroughly detailed through the works of Emanuel Swedenborg (http://www.swedenborg.com/), the gifted Swedish scientist, theologian and, mystic. If you refer to the first two chapters of my book -- yes, here we are talking about my book again -- I go into further detail about it. While it also happens to be the same period that I speak about on my Spiritual Timeline (http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4817) thread. How strange? Hmm ... Maybe I can get you to take a look at it afterall? Now wouldn't that be something!


Chapter 1 (http://www.dionysus.org/x0101.html) | Chapter 2 (http://www.dionysus.org/x0201.html) | Chapter 3 (http://www.dionysus.org/x0301.html) | Chapter 5 (http://www.dionysus.org/x0501.html)


EDIT: Added numbers and highlights to scripture.

[Another God]

Originally posted by Iacchus32
Doesn't this kind of sound like the rise of Greece (the he goat) during the 6th century BC?
Well, it does say this in the next few lines you know:
20 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.
21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.
22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.
23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

But I will look up the dates of this prophecy, and see what can be taken from the fact that it says the daily sacrifice was taken away.


Whereas when you think about it -- "the Jews" -- who, didn't actually exist as a people until after The Captivity, have been under the dominion of someone else ever since their release. So in this respect they haven't been allowed to worship "their God" in the way that they deem fit, in which case you could say their daily sacrifice was taken away.

[Iacchus32]

Originally posted by Another God
Well, it does say this in the next few lines you know:
20 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.
21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.
22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.
23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

But I will look up the dates of this prophecy, and see what can be taken from the fact that it says the daily sacrifice was taken away.It's funny but I knew that it said this somewhere, but I thought it was in one of my reference books, so I spent well over an hour trying to find it but I couldn't. Anyway this makes it a lot easier. Thanks.


Whereas when you think about it -- "the Jews" -- who, didn't actually exist as a people until after The Captivity, have been under the dominion of someone else ever since their release. So in this respect they haven't been allowed to worship "their God" in the way that they deem fit, in which case you could say their daily sacrifice was taken away.

But what 2300 years??? WHY??? What does 2300 have to do with anything??? Apparently "you" didn't read this part.


Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed. (Daniel 8:13-14).So what seems to be the problem here? Or, are you saying the "day for a year" thing doesn't apply here?


I'll tell you what. Nothing. It has Nothing to do with anything. So stop talking about it. Why are you so hasty to dismiss what I have to say? Anyway, as I already said, I'm already familiar with these two dates, 543 BC and 1757 AD, both of which are mentioned in my Timeline thread (http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4817).

While it just so happens that the year 1757 is the year that the "Last Judgment" (as foretold by the book of Revelation) was supposed to occur on the Christian Church, "or era," at which point a "New Church" or era began. Which roughly coincides with the "Age of Enligtenment" -- or, the advancement of science. This is all well documented, so please don't eschew me away about the date, Okay?

[Iacchus32]

While something else just occurred to me, about the date Alexander the Great died, 323 BC. If you take that and add 2,300 years, you also come up with the year 1977 -- which, is the first date that you came up with, right? ... i.e., 687 + 1290 = 1977.

Hmm ... Very interesting! [;)]


EDIT: Another thought about building a dome over sombody else's temple, is that it defiles it and basically takes away the ability to hold sacrifices, as it -- "the ascent to heaven" -- is no longer under their domain. So maybe the timeline and the Dome of the Rock are one and the same?

[Another God]

Originally posted by Iacchus32
Apparently "you" didn't read this part. Yep. Sorry about that. I thought I edited that part out before anyone else saw it. I wanted to reply to the Greek persia thing, so I replied, and when you reply it removes the quote text...so I didn't finish reading the quote. I just assumed you were throwing your 2300 number in there again. My mistake.

[Iacchus32]

Originally posted by Another God
Yep. Sorry about that. I thought I edited that part out before anyone else saw it. I wanted to reply to the Greek persia thing, so I replied, and when you reply it removes the quote text...so I didn't finish reading the quote. I just assumed you were throwing your 2300 number in there again. My mistake. No problem. While here I had just called up somebody's site over the Internet and scrolled down to this passage on the screen. And for some reason I had in mind 1290 days, yet I hadn't looked at it that closely. I was more concerned that it referred to the daily sacrifice. And I was kind looking away thinking about something else when the date jumped out at me from the screen. Actually I had begun to read it subsconsciously, but there was something about the date that didn't quite jive. And when I took a second look, and saw that it said 2,300, I couldn't believe it!

And, since the passage began with the rise of Persia and its subsequent struggle with Greece (although I was guessing at this point), I figured it must be speaking of some point just prior to where Persia conquered Babylon in 539 BC, hence the correlation to the 2,300 years between 543 BC and 1757 AD which, as I say, I had already determined.

And yet after reading the whole thing more closely, I think it's referring to the period Alexander conquered the Middle-East and began Hellenizing the Holy Land. This I think is what is meant by taking the daily sacrifice away. Indeed, the Jews have been "obstructed" from being able to worship "freely" ever since ... where the sacrifice is meant to be done voluntarily, and under the "domain" of one's own (religious) understanding, instead of that of some foreign domain -- i.e., Hellenism.


EDIT: As for the 1290 days at the end of "the abomination that maketh desolate" period, how about 1977 being the year that Anwar Sadat initiates the peace process with Israel? ... Sadat's Visit to Israel, 1977 (http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_1967to1991_sadat_1977.php)

Indeed, wouldn't it be at this point that the nation of Israel has now been "officially" recognized as being re-established?

While another thing is that Hagar, the mother of Abraham's first son Ishmael (from which the Arab nations sprang), was an Egyptian, so maybe it's fitting that Israel begin its "reconciliation" with the "sons of Egypt?"

[Another God]

oh yeah,. about that 1290 days thing: Apparently, that is refering to the time difference between the daily sacrifice being taken away, and the setting up of the abomination.

So I have been told, that the daily sacrifice was taken away, 1290 years passed, the abomination set up, and the 1335 years passes and ...something else happens.

[Iacchus32]

Originally posted by Another God
oh yeah,. about that 1290 days thing: Apparently, that is refering to the time difference between the daily sacrifice being taken away, and the setting up of the abomination.

So I have been told, that the daily sacrifice was taken away, 1290 years passed, the abomination set up, and the 1335 years passes and ...something else happens. And yet I took it to read that the daily sacrifice was taken away at the same time the great abomination was set up. Which kind of makes sense, because like I said, it defiles the temple and makes it unfit for religious practices for the Jews.

Whereas by this reconciliation that occurs between the Jews and the Arabs (specifically Egypt), the temple now comes under the dominion of both peoples and is no longer considered an abomination.


11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.It sounds like the abomination part is just an addendum to the daily sacrifice part. And why bother to mention the 1,335 days and leave it dangling there? If in fact it weren't referring to the 45 day period that occurs after the 1290 days? This to me makes a lot more sense.

[Another God]

Originally posted by Iacchus32
And yet I took it to read that the daily sacrifice was taken away at the same time the great abomination was set up.
i too took it the same way, but upon having this pointed out to me, have decided that I agree with the 1290 dayst between the two events.

But the fact that it is less than perfectly clear makes it very very problematic in my mind.

I accept it to be time between the two now, because i was shown a lexicon with the hebrew version, and a more literal translation, and it seemed to pan out that way moreso. Besides, it says nothing about the 1290 days, but says that blessed is he who wait 1335 after it happens. So it makes sense that it says "From time of A, to time of B there will be 1290. 1335 days after that only the blessed will live."




Hmm, this lexicon website may be useful... here is what

Abomination of Desolation, [J] Crosswalk.com (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=mt+24:15) said about the abomination:

[b]Abomination of Desolation

Mentioned by our Saviour, (Matthew 24:15) as a sign of the approaching destruction of Jerusalem, with reference to (Daniel 9:27; 11:31; 12:11) The prophecy referred ultimately to the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans, and consequently the "abomination" must describe some occurrence connected with that event. It appears most probable that the profanities of the Zealots constituted the abomination, which was the sign of the impending ruin; but most people refer it to the standards or banners of the Roman army. They were abomination because there were idolatrous images upon them.


It only mentions the daily sacrifice as being about one in the morning, one in the evening...nothing interesting.

[Iacchus32]

While something else was bugging me about the 1290 days, as somebody had mentioned it corresponded to "a time, a times, and a half," which was roughly three-and-a-half years and was mentioned in verse 7 ...

7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished. (Daniel 12:7).And yet, according to what I mentioned in my previous post (http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=62551#post62551), I understood that "a time, a times, and a half" corresponded to 1260 days or 42 months (42 x 30 = 1260), which makes more sense. And I was thinking, what if I were subtract the 30 days (years) from 1977 and see what corresponded to the year 1947. And quess what? This is the year the State of Israel was officially recognized by the United Nations! Now isn't that something! ... And what does it say about scattering the holy people during this time frame? Wow! While here I would venture to say that both these dates, 1947 and 1977, are two of the most significant dates in the history of modern Israel.

The Recognition of the State of Israel: 1947 (http://www.trumanlibrary.org/whistlestop/study_collections/israel/large/1947.htm)

[Another God]

Originally posted by Iacchus32
"a time, a times, and a half," which was roughly three-and-a-half years and was mentioned in verse 7 ... I don't understand how that = 3.5 years at all. nor do I understand how it corresponds to 42 months.

Least of all do i understand how you rationalise a random subtraction of 30 days from some number, and decide that you have found something significant.

Most of what you are doing here Iachus, is trying your darndest to fit the prophecy to various happenings in history, and if it doesn't fit quite as snugly as you like, then you change the variables a little, change the interpretation a little...etc. And that is not what I am here to do. I want to know what the prophecy means, and then see if that makes any sense in regards of history. Not the other way around.

This is very important. So please stop trying to make it fit a history of numbers.

PS: The chapters of the bible (like Revelation 19, 20, 21 etc... those chapter numbers, aren't actually in the original. They are added to the modern bible just as a reference system. The original was written on a series of parchments that were not numbered. So any amazing number games you have in your book that come as a consequence of the numbers of chapters, is meaningless as far as the Bible Goes.)

[Iacchus32]

Originally posted by Another God
I don't understand how that = 3.5 years at all. nor do I understand how it corresponds to 42 months.I have good a reference which refers to how these numbers correlate. Where 42 months x 30 = 1260. And 42 months divided 12 = 3.5 years.


Least of all do i understand how you rationalise a random subtraction of 30 days from some number, and decide that you have found something significant.Actually I thought 1260 days was much closer to 3.5 years than 1290 days, but after doing the math, 365 x 3.5 = 1277.5 days or, if you include the leap year you get 1278.375 days. As opposed to 360 x 3.5 = 1260 days. So it is closer to the 1290 days. Sorry. I'm just more familiar with working with these other numbers and assumed the 1260 days was a standard, that's all.


Most of what you are doing here Iachus, is trying your darndest to fit the prophecy to various happenings in history, and if it doesn't fit quite as snugly as you like, then you change the variables a little, change the interpretation a little...etc. And that is not what I am here to do. I want to know what the prophecy means, and then see if that makes any sense in regards of history. Not the other way around.All I did was come with up two numbers, conduct two separate searches, go to the first site for each search, and that was it! I wasn't really trying hard to do anything?


This is very important. So please stop trying to make it fit a history of numbers.LOL! I doubt that you'll be able to figure it out unless you take both into account.


PS: The chapters of the bible (like Revelation 19, 20, 21 etc... those chapter numbers, aren't actually in the original. They are added to the modern bible just as a reference system. The original was written on a series of parchments that were not numbered. So any amazing number games you have in your book that come as a consequence of the numbers of chapters, is meaningless as far as the Bible Goes.) And yet this is what we have to work with now isn't it? Besides, I don't recall having said anything about the significance of chapters vs numbers in this thread. So please don't accuse me of that, Okay?

By the way, I did check out the lexicon thing, and the whole thing sounds kind of iffy to me. The older translations weren't any less obscure than the King James version (which tends to read as if it happened the one way), and the more recent versions, which I wouldn't trust as far as I could spit, had the whole thing spelled out (which, tend read as if it happened the other way). So it's really hard to say?

[kat]

Originally posted by Iacchus32
By the way, I did check out the lexicon thing, and the whole thing sounds kind of iffy to me. The older translations weren't any less obscure than the King James version (which tends to read as if it happened the one way), and the more recent versions, which I wouldn't trust as far as I could spit, had the whole thing spelled out (which, tend read as if it happened the other way). So it's really hard to say?
What sounds iffy? The lexicon? Which older translations? what one way? which more recent versions and what don't you trust? what other way? erm, what's hard to say?

[Iacchus32]

Originally posted by kat
What sounds iffy? The lexicon? Which older translations? what one way? which more recent versions and what don't you trust? what other way? erm, what's hard to say?
Originally posted by Iacchus32
And yet I took it to read that the daily sacrifice was taken away at the same time the great abomination was set up.


Originally posted by Another God
i too took it the same way, but upon having this pointed out to me, have decided that I agree with the 1290 dayst between the two events.

But the fact that it is less than perfectly clear makes it very very problematic in my mind.

I accept it to be time between the two now, because i was shown a lexicon with the hebrew version, and a more literal translation, and it seemed to pan out that way moreso. Besides, it says nothing about the 1290 days, but says that blessed is he who wait 1335 after it happens. So it makes sense that it says "From time of A, to time of B there will be 1290. 1335 days after that only the blessed will live."


Hmm, this lexicon website may be useful... here is what

Abomination of Desolation, [J] Crosswalk.com (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=mt+24:15) said about the abomination:

[kat]

*boggle*

[Opinion]

"10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand."

- This is period following the 3 1/2 years of tribulation (total 7 years 3 1/2 of peace through a covenant). The remnant of Israel (144,000 true christians) will be slain and their power scattered. Yet, they will find a place in glory forever as they have already had the victory. The wicked will be oblivious to what is really going on concerning the matter. "Wisdom is in Christ"; everything else is speculative knowledge and unbelief. This will cause the wicked to be as fools concerning the truth of the matter... unto their destruction. Before this period, the "times of the gentiles" will have ended and the church of God raptured. God will then again, as promised, turn to Israel again... the children of God or "the original branches".

"11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days."

- The Temple will be rebuilt again. Israel will, once again, sacrifice and offer unto the Lord. They still bind themselves to the law which was presented by the hand of Moses on Mt. Sinai; therefore, they will continue there practices. The anti-christ will be Syrian; a direct post-example of Antiochus Epiphanese who did exactly what this prophecy has said (you can find this in the book of Maccabees and various historical literature). The "abomination of desolation" will be, most likely, his image in the place of the alter. The Bible mentions about "Times and time and a half"... a "time" is 365 days or 1 year. The total is more or less 3 1/2 years (1275 days). 1 "week" is reserved for the time of anti-christ. A "week" is 7 years. In the middle of the "week", the anti-christ will break his covenant with Israel and begin his desolations.

"12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days."

- This is the not just a statement. This is neither a prohpecy. This is plain imagery. The image is the intense persecution and desolation, also, the chances of survival during. Not all the tribulation saints will see death during this troublesome time.



To add:

666.

In MY opinion, this number refers to the "trinity of a man". 7 is consider a number representing perfection. 6 is imperfection. The trinity of man involves the spirit, soul, body of men. This number could only mean, in MY opinion, that the anti-christ is reprobate and evil in all three aspects... three times dead.


"Today's" so-called faith.

Fact. The gospel of Christ that these prophesies are balanced by has been duplicated... for the worst. During the time right before the Exodus of the Israelites, there were two magicians that resisted Moses in the sight of Pharaoh (I believe Ramses II, just an opinion). Everything Moses performed by the power of God, they performed through sorcery until they're false sorcery and mimics were abruptly ended on the 3rd plague... lice. Satan resisted then, and he resisted between 4 A.D. - 33 A.D., and he continues to resist... and getting better at it to where people today are lost in dismay. There are literally hundreds of "christian" denominations in the world as we type. The majority, and I do mean majority, are false. Follow me on this... Satan enticed actual christians to stray from the power and truth in the gospel and faith of Christ and defect to the law and traditions of men. Result? Christianity was slowly becoming a religion bases off a fable or something of no power. This, in turn, is why "just another religion". Anyway, Christians remained in one mind and Spirit, by faith. Sound doctrine was dominant approximately some years after Christ ascended. The apostle Paul took a stand against the apostle Peter concerning the Jewish christians imposing the law on the gentile christians (about circumsision). The matter was resolved. But, other men of lesser faith, if that, imposed unfamiliar ideas and philosophies into the church. Eventually, a certain man named Constantine became ruler after a series of vicious christian persecution through out the years. He adopted the christian faith and made it the national religion. This, no doubt, opened the door for the Greek (if my memory serves me right) philosophers to also gain advantage in adopting the "faith". Everything seemed fine and dandy after that, right? Wrong. True christians rejected the vain claims of "christianity", thus, inviting the ever-so-popular "christian"-on-christian persecutions... "The great whore, whose cup is filled with the blood of the saints"... the catholic church. 2000+ years later, the devil has nearly dooped the world into believing there is no "true" christians and that the Bible is a mere document. The one who exposes this truth is liable to being stoned or shot. There is more... but I want to go onto another prophetical fact. Next post----->

[megashawn]

There is more... but I want to go onto another prophetical fact. Next post----->

You say that as if you've already mentioned one.

Could you please point this out to us? Perhaps show the factuality of it?

Also it seems there is some kinda problem with the whole Exodus story. As I had seen it, they've found the workers who built the pyramids were valued citizens, not slaves. They were cared for, had shelter provided, etc.

Also, seems like there is absolutely no egyptian record of the events claimed in the bible. Why?

[Opinion]

In the book of Revelation, the Bible mentions "A third part..."

The tribulation is not going to be "world" wide as most people suspect. The tribulation is geared to bring Israel back to reconciliation with God. Therefore, for a fact, the plagues will be executed in the middle-east region. Looking at Biblical history, you most likely will not be aware that the tribulation is actually happening. Everything will most likely happen subtlely and logically which will hide its' significance and impact to the scientific/atheist/religious world. Also, the Iraelites are the only ones the tribulation is reserved for. The tribulation saints, contrary to the "Left Behind" series are ONLY the 144,000 which is subsequent with the ending of the "times of the gentiles".

"World" is often refered to in the Bible as relating to nations and peoples of significance according to whoever utilizes the word. It was seldom used to reference the Earth.

The miracles and judgement performed by God in the old testiment was often overlooked after the fact that it happened. Surely, the children of Israel would acknowledge and glorify God in the instance, but then will go back to being whoring backsliders, almost to their destruction. These were during times when science was practically non-existent and gods were accountable for phenomena that happened. Today, knowledge has increased to the point where so-called "christianity", atheism, and other vain religion rely on it. Making God's power vain to them and also, aligning the true God up with false gods who never had power to begin with. This is, in my opinion, the "strong delusion" prophecied.

[Opinion]

Originally posted by megashawn
You say that as if you've already mentioned one.

Could you please point this out to us? Perhaps show the factuality of it?

Also it seems there is some kinda problem with the whole Exodus story. As I had seen it, they've found the workers who built the pyramids were valued citizens, not slaves. They were cared for, had shelter provided, etc.

Also, seems like there is absolutely no egyptian record of the events claimed in the bible. Why?


Hi Shawn,

I don't follow you. I would have to read the entire Bible out loud to enlighten you any further. These answers are coming from study. Also, I never mentioned anything about Egyptians besides the two sorcerers. I have not seen it in Egyptian record myself either. But, and a big BUT, there is record of the Exodus in other records of the surrounding countries. The Israelites gained regional fame because of this Exodus. They were known as drifters for quite some time after the fact. And to add to that BUT, there is a record of Joseph in Egyptian history. Putting two and two together... if there were no Exodus, according to the Egyptians, then where did Joseph's brothers and their children go?

[Iacchus32]

Originally posted by Another God
i too took it the same way, but upon having this pointed out to me, have decided that I agree with the 1290 dayst between the two events.

But the fact that it is less than perfectly clear makes it very very problematic in my mind.

I accept it to be time between the two now, because i was shown a lexicon with the hebrew version, and a more literal translation, and it seemed to pan out that way moreso. Besides, it says nothing about the 1290 days, but says that blessed is he who wait 1335 after it happens. So it makes sense that it says "From time of A, to time of B there will be 1290. 1335 days after that only the blessed will live."


Hmm, this lexicon website may be useful... here is what

Abomination of Desolation, [J] Crosswalk.com (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=mt+24:15) said about the abomination:Actually I don't see anything here that refers to the word "after" in verse 12. According to the King James Version (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Daniel+12%3A11-12&section=1&version=kjv&new=1&oq=&NavBook=da&NavGo=12&NavCurrentChapter=12) on the lexicon anyway ...


11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. (Daniel 12:11-12).This is almost like saying, okay you do the math. And where did the 1335 days come from anyway? Just out of the blue? Or, is it referred to elsewhere?

Whereas if you read the Good News Translation (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Daniel+12%3A11+-+12&section=1&version=gnt&new=1&oq=&NavBook=da&NavGo=12&NavCurrentChapter=12), it seems to confirm the original idea (regarding verse 11) ...


11 From the time the daily sacrifices are stopped, that is, from the time of The Awful Horror, 1,290 days will pass.
12 Happy are those who remain faithful until 1,335 days are over! (Daniel 12:11-12).This is the most clear translation so far, at least in terms of what we thought it should be. Which, seems to fit in quite well with the years 687 and 1977.

Whereas if you read the The New Revised Standard Version (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Daniel+12%3A11+-+12&section=1&version=nrs&new=1&oq=&NavBook=da&NavGo=12&NavCurrentChapter=12) ...


11 From the time that the regular burnt offering is taken away and the abomination that desolates is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred ninety days.
12 Happy are those who persevere and attain the thousand three hundred thirty-five days. (Daniel 12:11-12).So there you have it! Two conflicting translations!


P.S. The Kings James version of verse 11 has three parts: the first part is active, the second part is passive (no modifying verb?), suggesting it's to be included with the with the first part, and the third part is active, suggesting it's supposed to act on the first and second part together. At least this is what it suggests to me.

[Another God]

Originally posted by Iacchus32
Whereas if you read the Good News Translation (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Daniel+12%3A11+-+12&section=1&version=gnt&new=1&oq=&NavBook=da&NavGo=12&NavCurrentChapter=12), it seems to confirm the original idea (regarding verse 11) ... LOL..the Good News Translation. I don't think that even counts as a translation. More as a euphemism than anything... It takes the bible, and converts it into a fairy tale for brainwashing kids into what the church wants them to believe.

[Guybrush Threepwood]

is there a conclusion for this prophecy yet?

[lecooper]

This has been an interesting line of threads, with discussion of days to years and back to days. The big question is, has this prophecy been fulfilled yet? I answer with a definite NO! For any good bible exegesis, one must consider the surrounding text carefully. A careful study of this chapter of Daniel along with the previous chapters, you can see that this is talking about the end times.

Verse 2: Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

Verse 9: He replied, "Go your way, Daniel, because the words are closed up and sealed until the time of the end.

Verse 13: "As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance."

Just with these verses from this chapter, we can see that this is referring to the time of the end. If we back up to chapter 9, we see ""Seventy 'sevens' are decreed for your people..."

Chapter 9, verse 25 shows that 69 (7+62) weeks (of years) have already been fulfilled. That leaves one "7" or one week of years left to be fulfilled:

25 "Know and understand this: From the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven 'sevens,' and sixty-two 'sevens.' It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. 26 After the sixty-two 'sevens,' the Anointed One will be cut off and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolation’s have been decreed. 27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him. "

This final week is called "the 70th week." Notice here the multiple use of the words "the end." One side note is that this period of 69 weeks of years is 173,880 days. A man from Scotland Yards worked this out to the very day that Jesus came and presented Himself to the Jews as their Messiah and was "cut off." On our own calendar, this works out to the exact day! Are these prophecies accurate? Yes, extremely accurate! If someone wants to see the math for this, write me, lyle.cooper@cox.net

WE must remember that a prophetic year in the bible is 360 days. We will prove this here. There are other proofs of this throughout the bible. Daniel has his "time - times - and 1/2 time or 3 1/3 years. Revelation 11:1, speaking of the 70th week period, says "forty-two months" and "prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days." The 70th week is a 7 year period divided into two 1260 day periods. It is divided because God says that in the midst of the week the "daily" sacrifice will be taken away. This pinpoints the two 1260 day periods. Note that 1260 divided by 360 is 3 1/2. So we know that in the midst of this 7 year period, the daily sacrifices will cease.

How do we know that this wasn't fulfilled in AD 70? Good question. One reason is that Jesus mentions the "abomination of desolation" and relates it to the end of time and His Second Coming. You will note that Jesus did not return to earth in AD 70 and set up his 1000-year reign as King of this planet! Also, most of the book of Revelation is about this 70th week, and it was written about AD 90, or 20 years after AD 70.

Now what about the 1290? There are two possibilities. One is that after the antichrist stops the daily sacrifices, he will not set up the abomination for another 1290 days. In other words, there are 1290 days between the two events. Daily sacrifices taken away - 1290 days - Abomination set up. Note that in this scenario, the 70th week will be over 30 days before the abomination is even set up. The next possibility is that these two events happen together and they happen exactly 1290 days before some other event, such as the cleansing of the temple. WE must note that these "daily sacrifices" have not taken place since AD 70! However, I am confident because of these scriptures that they soon will begin again. I know that the Jews now have red heifers to do the sacrifices. They have worked hard to achieve this. A red heifer is necessary because the bible says the sacrifice is to be a "red heifer without spot or blemish." (Numbers chapter 19) There is no doubt that the Jews want to restart the daily sacrifices.

However, to do this, there needs to be a temple! I believe that the 7-year treaty that starts the 70th week of Daniel will allow the Jews to build a new temple. As you can see, I believe that the 1290 days are still in the future, and that they are sure to come. I believe that the scripture is clear that the 70th week has not happened yet, but will happen very soon.

[lecooper]

I wanted to add something about the 1335th day. Both of these time frames start with the "daily" being removed. What will happen on the 1335th day? This is free for anyone's guess! Many online have guessed that it is the day that Jesus returns, but then, He said no one will know the day nor the hour - so why would he give the very day? It could be that this is the day that the antichrist is thrown into the lake of fire! That would be a blessed day!

Another thought about the 1290th day. Jesus told them that when they see 1) Jerusalem surrounded by armies, and 2) the abomination of desolation set up, they are to flee. If the abomination is set up 1290 days after the daily is removed, or 1290 days after the midpoint of the 7 years, the timing is just about right for this. Suppose the Jew that know this prophecy, flee, but are pushed up against the hills by the antichrist's armies with no place to flee. We know that when Jesus comes back and His feet touch Mt. Olivet, the mountain will split and create a huge valley (East and West) and the Jews will flee into the mountain to escape. (Zechariah 14) Jesus said HE would return a very short time after the 70th week is finished (1260 days after the daily is removed.)

The only trouble I have with this scenario is that armies might surround Jerusalem in the first 3 1/2 years, and they all flee then.

Although the last 3 1/2 year will be hell on earth, and millions (billions?) will die, many will survive, for Jesus has the "Nations" judgement" very soon after He returns to decide who will be able to enter into the 1000 year reign of Christ.

[Fred24]

The 666 Calculator and prophecy

Some of it's intresting BUT i'm looking for some feed back from people who know math. I copied one of this guys pages plus I have some links where he debates someone on this at his forum. Read the excerpt below then come back and click the links.

His 666 Calculator

http://www.geocities.com/iamthekey_2000/calculator.html

A debate on his forum - Part 1

http://s2.excoboard.com/exco/thread.php?forumid=1866&threadid=3912

A debate on his forum - Part 2

http://s2.excoboard.com/exco/thread.php?forumid=1866&threadid=4266 part 2

-----------------------------------------------
Excerpt form his page.........


The English Language Letter Values uncovering Antichrist

A=6 B=12 C=18 D=24 E=30 F=36 G=42 H=48 I=54 J=60 K=66 L=72 M=78 N=84 O=90 P=96 Q=102 R=108 S=114 T=120 U=126 V=132 W =138 X=144 Y=150 Z=156

We will start with the 666 findings first. Then we will look at the 444, 906 and the other match total patterns. IMPORTANT NOTE: All groups shown on this page are calculated by the same exact alphabet key shown above. You can check these results using the calculator at the top of the page, or you can check them manually. There are also additional findings included on this page that were not shown at the main page, so be sure to review all of them.


A=6 B=12 C=18 D=24 E=30 F=36 G=42 H=48 I=54 J=60 K=66 L=72 M=78 N=84 O=90 P=96 Q=102 R=108 S=114 T=120 U=126 V=132 W =138 X=144 Y=150 Z=156

The 666 Findings word list using the Numeric alphabet above

Mark of Beast=666, Bio-Implant=666, plus the words; Sorceries, Necromancy, Witchcraft, Lustful, Corrupt, Insanity, Horrors, Treacheries, Slaughter, Computer, Calculation, False Market, Channellers, Stubborn, Unruly, Illusion, Book of the Dead, Son of Sin, A Perdition, Geneticist, Quarrels,Falling Away


A=6 B=12 C=18 D=24 E=30 F=36 G=42 H=48 I=54 J=60 K=66 L=72 M=78 N=84 O=90 P=96 Q=102 R=108 S=114 T=120 U=126 V=132 W =138 X=144 Y=150 Z=156


Other Interesting 666 totals

New York=666 (United Nations?)

Waco Texas=666 (David Koresh?)

A Branch Davidian=666 (David Koresh's group)


A=6 B=12 C=18 D=24 E=30 F=36 G=42 H=48 I=54 J=60 K=66 L=72 M=78 N=84 O=90 P=96 Q=102 R=108 S=114 T=120 U=126 V=132 W =138 X=144 Y=150 Z=156


Almost 666 but not quite

Osama Bin Laden = 660

Adolf Hitler = 660

Darwinism = 660


A=6 B=12 C=18 D=24 E=30 F=36 G=42 H=48 I=54 J=60 K=66 L=72 M=78 N=84 O=90 P=96 Q=102 R=108 S=114 T=120 U=126 V=132 W =138 X=144 Y=150 Z=156

The 444 group of words using the same alphabet values

Jesus=444, Yshua=444, plus the words; Messiah, Cross, Gospel, Jewish, Joshua, Obedient , Increase, Forgave, English, Gematria, Parent, Church age, Fruit

A=6 B=12 C=18 D=24 E=30 F=36 G=42 H=48 I=54 J=60 K=66 L=72 M=78 N=84 O=90 P=96 Q=102 R=108 S=114 T=120 U=126 V=132 W =138 X=144 Y=150 Z=156

The 906 group of words using the same alphabet values

Jesus is Lord=906, Jesus Christ=906, Son of the Lord, Lord's Prayer, Holy Spirit, Lord of Hosts,Through Love, Jesus Glory, Jesus Is Alive, Redeemer From God, Jesus Sacrificed, Shed Blood For Man, Prophetic King, Unconditional, Healing Promise, Love is the Law

The 888 group of words using the same alphabet values

A=6 B=12 C=18 D=24 E=30 F=36 G=42 H=48 I=54 J=60 K=66 L=72 M=78 N=84 O=90 P=96 Q=102 R=108 S=114 T=120 U=126 V=132 W =138 X=144 Y=150 Z=156

Divine Presence = 888

Omnipresent = 888

Messiah Jesus = 888

Coming Truth = 888

A Holy Truth = 888

Law of Liberty = 888

King of the Sabbath = 888

The King Jesus = 888

Finished Cross = 888

The Lion of Judah = 888

Morning Star = 888

Scriptures = 888

The Trinity = 888

The Lord's Time = 888

The House of God = 888

The Doings of God = 888

Biblical Prophet = 888


Group 204


A=6 B=12 C=18 D=24 E=30 F=36 G=42 H=48 I=54 J=60 K=66 L=72 M=78 N=84 O=90 P=96 Q=102 R=108 S=114 T=120 U=126 V=132 W =138 X=144 Y=150 Z=156


Grace = 204

Free = 204

One = 204


Group 360


Teacher = 360

Holy = 360

Pure = 360

Word = 360

Believe = 360

Helps = 360

The most common errors I hear by email in the form of statements from Christians trying to correct me on this subject:

Many Christians say: The English Gematria codes cannot be correct because the mark of the beast isn't even literal, just as God did not mean for us to literally do mathematics when calculating the number. We are only supposed to reckon the number 666 symbolically.
MY ANSWER:-The MARK of the Beast is LITERIAL and so is the calculation of the name and number 666.

Whenever you hear a Christian say the mark of the beast is not literal then run don't walk to a private place and pray for that person. If they teach such a thing then they will be deceived and destroyed if Jesus Christ does not deliver and correct them. You see most Christians will not study the scriptures beyond the basic Gospel, they like to let their pastor, or a priest do that for them. Christians just as non believers are quite often very busy and don't always study the scriptures as they should. It's a poor excuse, but sadly it happens far to often among Christians of all denominations.

It is also very dangerous not study the scriptures at a deeper level for yourself. To not study the scriptures seriously and to just take someone else's word for it is like trusting a man that tells you that your car will never need another oil change with his new and improved oil. It sure sounds good but even if some type of new oil was developed that could live up to that claim you still would not just take that person's word for it without verifying it quite seriously first.

Now friends when you do serious study of the Bible's original Koine Greek definitions (new testament) for the words "calculate" and the word "mark" it becomes very clear that those who make statements saying the mark is not literal are erred and on a runaway trian speeding down the wrong way track, a very deadly track at that. Even Hal Lindsey and Grant Jeffrey will confirm these Koine greek definitions. For non believers visiting if you ever wanted to know why Christians debate and argue at times then here is one of the most serious re*********************** Truncated

[Moonbear]

Alright, I'm no Biblical scholar. It took me halfway through this thread to figure out what book the verse in question was coming from. I want to read it in context before I post much else on it.

However, I thought one point is worth mentioning now, for what it's worth. Regarding whether those numbers mean years, days or a combination of both, something else should be considered in determining the length of time indicated. If days mean years, then we need to make sure to correct for different calendar systems between then and now. I could be wrong on this, but I have this vague recollection that the number of days in a year was different when a lunar calendar was used prior to the creation of the Gregorian calendar we now use that defines a year as 265-1/4 days (that 1/4 is the leap year fudge factor). I don't think this is going to make a huge difference, except that over a few thousand years, a day or two here and there could add up to a few years difference. If the objective is to determine the precise time when a prophesy should occur to decide if it indeed HAS occurred as predicted, then we need to make sure we're calculating that date correctly.

As a side note, I really appreciate the contributions of the people who have read some of the text in its original language who are helping in the interpretation based on original wording. I find that to be a difficulty in interpreting the Bible, when the English version uses an archaic form of English to translate an archaic form of another language, that in turn can lead to a substantial difference in interpretation of the meaning. The "overspreading" example is a good one. I did take that to mean covering or encompassing, but can see how one could also read that as spread too much or too far.

Edit:
Here's a link about some different calendars and the number of days in a year according to them. I don't know which one is appropriate, but as you will see, you can get vastly different dates depending which one you use. :eek:
http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/astronomy/Calendar.html

[Razi Abid]

All you people, leave the bible, follow the Quran. It is more authentic, and it has a lot of prophecies which were fulfilled and which will be fulfilled. You'll stay stunned on looking at the prophecies it prophecized. You may call it the modern of all books of God. I believe that the Bible is also a book of God, and all muslims believe it, But the Quran is more modern. It prophecized the fall of Byzantine empire, the signs of the Judgment day, etc.