Does Religon Show Weakness in Society

[Tom McCurdy]

Is religon a sign of weakness in society. A sign that we are not advance as we should be, that we still must explain our unknowns by superficial means. It seems stupid to us that the ancienct Greeks had many gods like Zeus and Posideon, will that be the case in the future. Will people from the future wonder why we didn't realize that God didn't exist. This poll is mainly for athiests, although I am sure I will get a bunch of theist responses.

[Tom McCurdy]

This is another way of asking do you belive humans will evolve beyond religon.

[arildno]

I voted yes.
And yes, already today, a lot of civilized individuals have no need for the mental crutch of religion in their lives
(I'm talking here of prescriptive, institutionalized religion).

[PerennialII]

Yes, most religions have nothing to offer .... philosophy will fare better.

[olde drunk]

i voted yes with the assumption that your use of the term 'religion' meant the traditional organizations.

let's be mindful that we all have a personal religion which is needed to steer a course through life.

love&peace,
olde drunk

[Moses]

OK,
I voted for NO, if it is just "Yes or No" with one word..
In more specific: Yes! In some places in the world, religion either by itself or by the systems who controls it encourage to destroy Earth! An Example is the Christianity Churches who support Imperialism, Colonaliasm and Slave trading.... [No offend for christians..ok?] and supporting Land-Lords, which make the society "evolve" through secularism..and thus weakened the religion auithority...

Yes Europre benefit from that in some aspects...but they lost the fact that if a religon system is "not good" and was substituted with another, never means that "every" religion should organization should be treated the same e.d ending the society to be "secular" to reduce that rel. organization authoiry...

[Moses]

It seems stupid to us that the ancienct Greeks had many gods like Zeus and Posideon, will that be the case in the future. Will people from the future wonder why we didn't realize that God didn't exist. responses.

a simple thing: Old Greeks are not all the world...even in the old times...did you know how many Monothiests nations where at that time? Generalization of all the world situation about religion depending on just europre "religion evolving" is not valid..i think. :smile:

Polythiesm is "broken" in the face of monothiesm, and studies now show that even "Athiesm" [Which you may wonder how i see it polythiesm] is decreasing in "Muslim world" and increase largely in "Christian World", and monothiest religion in general is increasing in China...No generalization, plz

[Padford]

i voted no, and i'm athiest - well, agnostic, but close enough...
religion may be the stated cause of too many wars and unnessary conflicts, but it certaintally does not show a weakness in society; many of the greatest countries in history were driven by religion - there were not weak.

[Dooga Blackrazor]

I agree that many countries have been driven by religion. That fact does not mean that religion is still not a weakness. Many country leaders have been forced to use religion because of the general moral weakness of the average individual; futhermore, the country leaders usually aren't forced to use religion but have to be religious to become a leader.

I think the problem with countries that don't have strong religious beliefs and aren't successful is that the people are too weak to get along without the religion. They need to be taught and strengthened to not depend on religion.

[Padford]

control of the masses, right?
But the best leaders in history didn't need religion.

[Janitor]

At their best, religions have been able to inspire talented painters, sculptors and composers. At their worst, as mentioned above, religions have preached intolerance even to the point of advocating killing people who don't believe in the same way. To give atheism its due, Stalin also was a big (atheist) advocate of killing people who didn't see things his way.

I think religions will be with us for thousands more years. I will predict that in another couple of hundred years the percentage of Believers who deny evolution will be as low as the percentage who currently maintain that the Earth is flat.

[Moses]

Mmmm, sounds we use one word while speaking about two or more than one thingys..

So: What is Religion guys? I am not out tracking the thread but it is crucial to continue to agree in one usage of the word "religion"

For me i see as: "Religion" is a system for life from God to humans.
i.e for me :A nice guy [girl] saying nice thingys and order peple to follow, is not establishing a religion, even he is claimed to be "send from God..prophet..messenger..whatever"

This is expanded to contain that the tradition mix with what God [yeah, we assume here that He exists, and sees and hears us now!] IS NOT A RELIGION.
EVEN it is calimed to be called religon be people.

Thus, religion still is not a weakness by definition, but the religon organizations [Which leads to society crruption in many nations, and to the highness in others] and who use the "proper religion" as "drugs" to make the societ "high to the max" IS weakened the society by religion.

Janitor, Evolution theory in its base is NOT VALID, but some branches of it is. it is collapsing widely... [ I will see if i can show some links via the web for that]

[Moses]

control of the masses, right?
But the best leaders in history didn't need religion.

Well, Genghis Khan was not having a religion [was he good] , others great ones such as Moses , Muhammad , Jesus are

[Tom McCurdy]

There is no way there is a substancial number of people who still dont' believe in evolution is there?

Anyone have the percentage?

[Tom McCurdy]

Janitor, Evolution theory in its base is NOT VALID, but some branches of it is. it is collapsing widely... [ I will see if i can show some links via the web for that]


please provide links to trusted names in science... not something like timecube

[Moses]

There is no way there is a substancial number of people who still dont' believe in evolution is there?

Anyone have the percentage?

Ok, at least I lived in the middle east for many years, among Muslims there, they do not believe that humans are sons of monkeys or bacteria..they believe that the are sons of Adam [Yeah, i am son of dad Adam as well, and mama Eve :approve: ] They logically argure that if God says a thingy, and it is proven that God said that thingy, any human condicts it , is wrong..[in thier words i am saying]

the bunch of links will come, try to "Very Proper" in english [could you read hebrew? or turkish?]

[TENYEARS]

The arrogance is beyond me. If you little fools and old fools alike only understood. Your responses are out of weakness. Out of unconcious unused mind. Young stupid fools. My answer is YES. For the it is out of weakness that even science is formed. You must create a method for the thing you do not understand. If you understand it, experience it what is there to create? Once the one who unerstood is gone there is a need to fill a void because why? Because you are not experiening what they did.

Understanding creates what is percieved as strength. It is not strength, it is that in pure understanding there can be no fear only understanding because the experiencer is in a pure state of witness which leaves nothing left for fear.

[Moses]

The arrogance is beyond me. If you little fools and old fools alike only understood. Your responses are out of weakness. Out of unconcious unused mind. Young stupid fools. My answer is YES. For the it is out of weakness that even science is formed. You must create a method for the thing you do not understand. If you understand it, experience it what is there to create? Once the one who unerstood is gone there is a need to fill a void because why? Because you are not experiening what they did.

Understanding creates what is percieved as strength. It is not strength, it is that in pure understanding there can be no fear only understanding because the experiencer is in a pure state of witness which leaves nothing left for fear.

Mmm...ok cool:
Simply, If you PROVED a religion is from Lord God, then people followed that religion. It is a STRONG thingy for society, since thier God who knows every things and knows the humans [who without arguing are LIMITED ABILITIES BIENGS, and thus should not be ARROGANT....

The only thingy is investigate: Is that "religion" who leads the society is from "God" and people follow rationally, or is it "A LIE" or/and people follow it just in ingorance and "too much zealotry" such as the Crusaders...or al-Qaeda nowadays...or even George Bush...

I will not be the fool to branch the thread to "which religion is correct" but i say: If "The True Religion" from GOD exists, then people follow that X true religion, it is GREAT to be extremist in that religion, since follow the good rules to the max will make the society STRONGET...and more developed in SCIENCE and KNOWLDGE :approve: [Should i put long white beard next to my words to look wise...or they are ok like that :rofl: ]

[TENYEARS]

God has never instructed in the history of eternity any race or beings on any other planet to form any religion. This is reality. Out of the universe, out of god comes all things. So if a religion is born out of god which is all things, then ultimately the relgion came from god but not god the subjective as something separate. I said in the past I would never get logical like this but now I am weak. Much of many relgions is true, it is just interpereted incorrectly by those who do not want to understand or those who don't understand. It is not that they cannot understand.

[Padford]

in this months national geographic, the front cover states "was darwin wrong" haven't read the article yet, but it may back you up, Moses.

[Moses]

I.in this months national geographic, the front cover states "was darwin wrong" haven't read the article yet, but it may back you up, Moses.

Yeah, aprreciate it, but i might open i new thread for discussing this issue, to keep this thread on its main track.

Thx for metioning the source, i will added it to my "collection" against Uncle Darwin..

II. At least in my faith...God is mentioning that "for every nation He sent a messenger from Him"...and "people change the origianl message for their own interests and [Cheap] price for this life" ,and they are another "rational creatures" in this planet that we cannot see "simply invisible" they most follow the religion which God oredered them...If they is another "rational being" on other planets...by Logic the "Universe Lord" should "give them the brochure for help". If it is important to mention to us who live on Earth how God deals with other "smart sapiens" He will say it... :smile:

[anti_crank]

Thx for metioning the source, i will added it to my "collection" against Uncle Darwin..
Don't waste your time. That article deals with new and very recent discoveries that may alter the understanding of the details of human evolution. In no way does it claim that evolution is wrong or that humans did not evolve just like every other species. Unfortunately, the National Geographic, being a somewhat public-oriented publication, decided to go with a sensationalist but potentially misleading title.

Now that you know, I hope you will not claim otherwise, as many who reject evolution are wont to do.

[Moses]

To return back to the core point where the "evolution" thingy pop up here:

Simply: In any X society, if they use "rational" i.e. NOT fake legends and nice stories and un logical methologies to compehened the things around them that goes on. It is good [Yeah i know every body knows that!]

HOWEVER, If that X society Religion contradicts with Logic results.. they have to figure out which one is wrong, IT HAS TO BE ONE in this case. Logically speaking not emotionally...

"True Religion" should not contradic with science in its statements, the REAL currect statements which considered "facts"..If they contradic, since religion comes from "Perfect" resource i.e "The-God", and science not from "perfect" resource , it is abvoius who the society will favor...the resource which Never Will make the society Weak..the Ture Religion...

If that religion is not Ture...they all the argument above is screwed.. and science wins in this case against that "False Religion"... :biggrin:

Does it sounds good?

[anti_crank]

Great! All you need now is an objective test of whether that religion is True or not.

[Moses]

Great! All you need now is an objective test of whether that religion is True or not.

Yep! and at the end some body shows me that I make "kinda sense"! :approve:

Anti_crank, we can discuess the objective test in another thread since in this way we can have "more proper" space for it.

Mentioning quickly an objective test before getting back to the main track: The-God should "sign" on it in His own way..call it miracles..proofs wahtever!

If X claimed to be a religion, but it is Not a relgion so X: religion wanna be will show a weakness in society, if not in economics or politics for a while, it will show weakness inthe society rationality and its own critical thinking , and this is the worst weakness in my eyes! Remeber that X here is not a religion in this case, evev it is really "well-mixed" with some "true religion staff" :biggrin:

If X is true religion , so all positive thingys about religion remains, and thus it is now a weakness for society! I.E RELIGION DOES NOT SHOW WEAKNESS IN SOCIETY. :smile:

Lol, I love the mentor who deleted the couple of posts before this one, and one of them was mine :cry:, no actually :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Artman]

Religion has other purposes than to answer questions that cannot be answered through scientific means. To many people, it is a source of inner peace and hope, a guide and gauge to self improvement and inspiration, a social institution for persons of similar interests, an outlet for indirect and direct local-level social intervention and assistance (food banks, homeless shelters, etc.)

Many religions ask us to turn our focus outward instead of inward, to consider the needs of others. This aspect can be addressed by society, but at this point in time I can think of few other institutions that help persons strive to achieve this level of morality (as indicated by the higher levels of Kolhberg's morality scale for instance).

I think that fanatical adherance to fringe ideas in religious dogma can be antisocial and indicates a lacking in society and a weakness in religion.

I really think that if the finer points of religion and society could be melded, many "scientific types" would have less problems with religion and see it as serving a useful purpose.

[Aquamarine]

A survey and some correlations:
http://people-press.org/reports/display.php3?ReportID=167
http://www.gnxp.com/MT2/archives/001523.html

[selfAdjoint]

Your second link is "for what it's worth". The -89% correlation is striking, but I am sure you are going to get the usual protests against using Lynn's reported national IQ averages, and quite correctly. The guys at gnxp often throw out ideas that won't bear the weight of serious investigation. It's a blog, after all, not the arxiv.

[misogynisticfeminist]

I think that only to the extent in which society is dependent on religious metaphysics is the point when the society is truly, "weak". I myself, am a theist, and i think that religion and science is just simply an offshot of the same supreme being, and I don't think neither is closer to this "God".

But anyway, religion answers different questions and can be said to be a valid branch of philosophy. I hold a belief of an "onion" universe. Its as if science peels of one layer, and there's still many layers to peel to see what really lies at the core of this onion. One answer leads to many other questions, some of which lies beyond the bounds of our own intuition.

And yes, religion and science serves different purposes. But are ultimately the same thing, as something originally intended to benefit society as a whole. Since they share similar objectives, each should realize its own place, and work together.

[misogynisticfeminist]

To return back to the core point where the "evolution" thingy pop up here:

Simply: In any X society, if they use "rational" i.e. NOT fake legends and nice stories and un logical methologies to compehened the things around them that goes on. It is good [Yeah i know every body knows that!]

HOWEVER, If that X society Religion contradicts with Logic results.. they have to figure out which one is wrong, IT HAS TO BE ONE in this case. Logically speaking not emotionally...

"True Religion" should not contradic with science in its statements, the REAL currect statements which considered "facts"..If they contradic, since religion comes from "Perfect" resource i.e "The-God", and science not from "perfect" resource , it is abvoius who the society will favor...the resource which Never Will make the society Weak..the Ture Religion...

If that religion is not Ture...they all the argument above is screwed.. and science wins in this case against that "False Religion"... :biggrin:

Does it sounds good?

Not really, I don't think that, as a theist, religion and science is like EM and the weak interaction. Religion is by no means from the "perfect" source, unless they meet God for breakfast every morning. Religious scriptures are passed down from generation to generation, and often its meaning is tainted by social construction as well as a more carnal interpretation of something divine.

therefore, religion is not as close to the divine as it seems, and neither is science that far away or entirely humanistic. Unless religion recognize that God works in other areas of society such as science and art, then it will be able to form a "true" religion as you have described.

: )

[Padford]

Weakness is in all societies, it is everywhere, from physical to social structures, and indeed it is omnipresent in humans. BUT I think religion is vital in binding people with different ideals, together; people who would not usually come together do because of their similar belief in a god or figure or divinity.
Yes, religion may be a means to define what we don’t know, what science cannot tell us - but is not much of science undefined and unproven itself? We cannot be so quick to say religion shows weakness in society – religion gives peace of mind to those who believe it, and to those who don’t it gives them a wondering sensation, makes them think: is it true? And if a persuasive leader, someone of authority comes along and says “God exists,” they’re going to turn a few heads, and make people wonder if they are correct in saying ‘there is no god’.
If we look back into history, for example, we can see how leaders manipulated religion, or lead the masses or the church structure to protect their divine sovereignty. Take the great Napoleon I, for example; he remodelled the Catholic church in the early 1800's so he could strengthen his society, every Sunday he had his priests, ex-monks and cardinals preaching his word, perverting the bible (like MANY, many people have done) to suit his ideals, propaganda infiltrated those people every week, they hear ‘Napoleon is a divine leader, follow him, for he is the second coming,’ once, and they dismiss it – after a year or two of hearing it, they believe it…what I’m saying is that religion brings people together, it is a means to define life and death, and it is a way of getting political support; this masterpiece of either completely false gospel or celestial truth does certainally not show weakness in society.

[Moses]

Actually, this is the point that i was almost near to come thu before the thread curved a bit away from it,

Faith makes people stronget...and we have "defense mechanism" in the inner self that makes us stronger. Beleiving in a religion could be rational "you have a valid proof for it" and supporting you, which it is a strong tool here to use in life. On the other hand, religion can be like "gambling" which could boost you up or put you down [and the scoiety on a larger scale] if it is build on the blind faith and not on mind-base [Yeah i admit it: alomst almost all religions in the world has this waekness; blind faith].

In the last type i mentioned up, realigion will be a weakness, since the soctiey is not build in a solid dase in faith. Through history we can see some asocietites rock down other socoetites who the second were much materialistics stronget than the first, but the first has its religion is a strong base and role in society, which lead it to overcoming the second society.

[loseyourname]

Religion is a remnant of primitivity, not a sign of weakness.

[tiger_striped_cat]

Does religion make society weak? Well I guess you have to define weak. I really don't know. But maybe I can remind some of the physicists here. We are a collection of quarks, leptons, and messenger particles. That's all we are, and it's futile for people to look for anything more than personal meaning in things like sunsets, marriage, music or anything mundane. Religion may bring up some people's lives a trifle. So if it makes the society weak, it really doesn't matter does it? In the end it won't make a bit of a difference.

[selfAdjoint]

Does religion make society weak? Well I guess you have to define weak. I really don't know. But maybe I can remind some of the physicists here. We are a collection of quarks, leptons, and messenger particles. That's all we are, and it's futile for people to look for anything more than personal meaning in things like sunsets, marriage, music or anything mundane. Religion may bring up some people's lives a trifle. So if it makes the society weak, it really doesn't matter does it? In the end it won't make a bit of a difference.

Now, THAT'S reductionism!

Some of our higher order derived functions may "care" what happens.

[Thallium]

Well, I am a living proof that faith is useful, as are many hundreds of thousands of other human beings. I do not call my faith a 'religion'. That word has a different meaning that my 'faith' has. I am against any religious institutionalization, as it prooves that so many religious leaders are weak, perverted and cruel. But when that is said, my God has given me good relief in times of need and my happiness grounds in my faith.

If you think me an uncivilised, unintelligent animal that has never known a crumb of sanity, then so be it. I'm quite used to skepticism and judgement, as everyone else is.

[Tom McCurdy]

Does religion make society weak? Well I guess you have to define weak. I really don't know. But maybe I can remind some of the physicists here. We are a collection of quarks, leptons, and messenger particles. That's all we are, and it's futile for people to look for anything more than personal meaning in things like sunsets, marriage, music or anything mundane. Religion may bring up some people's lives a trifle. So if it makes the society weak, it really doesn't matter does it? In the end it won't make a bit of a difference.


Depends on what you believe matters...

I enjoy the idea of the human race progressing its knowledge of the world and universe. I view religon as something that was created to control people and outdated. It's practices when isolated have minmal effect, however when religon tries to prevent scientfic growth it frustrates me. I personally would like to know how our collection of quarks, leptons, and messenger particles got here and if religon is going to get in the way then I believe it does show a weakness in our society. It prevents scientifc growth. Also on an purly ethical standpoint religon has been the source of many useless wars. People believe their relgion is correct, people interpt religon in certain ways, people manipulate religion in certain ways, and often the end result is war and suffering. I value my collection of quarks-- I don't know why I am here, but I enjoy being here and I don't want my life to end because some jackass said that the bible told someone that their religon wants them to kill me. In this fashion religon shows a more primitive state of society that will slowly go be removed as we progress.

Religon is often created to account for the unexplained-- we explain the unexplained there is no need for religon.

[TENYEARS]

The study of relgion like science is both a facet of weakness. The weakness comes because the truth is always there in plain site to see. We choose not to and therefore would like to do something more pleasing like this imaginary thing we call life. We all play this joke with ourselves, but deep deep in your mind hiding in the resesses of your soul there in that place you know, yes you do know for I know you. You can only hide from yourself like little rabbit's behind some twigs see me not. To acknowlge truth is a painful experience. It transforms and is sometimes like walking with heavy boots through a deep bog. To see what lies before others and yourself and the future of all. I present the worst, for there is too much hype on the wonderful. These are individuals who do not understand the balance of life. These are the people who will turn a blind eye to it's destruction.

[Evo]

My two cents worth, I don't believe in organized religion, but see the need for it for some people. A lot of people are emotionally frail and need the comfort and emotional security organised religion can give them, it is a needed "crutch". One thing that "Born Again Christians" feed on is distraught people's need to feel loved and accepted, that is what these people prey upon. They sell their religion telling people that they will be loved unconditionally, no more hurt, no more pain, it's sad. But a lot of people need and want this. This emotional "crutch" helps them deal with dissapointment and gives them a feeling of "belonging" so I cannot say it weakens them.

A lot of people are like sheep, they need a herder to keep them going in the right direction, they need someone to tell them what to do. Organized religion does this.

Then there are those that don't need or want the mind control of an organized religion, but still believe in a God. This is also ok. These people have a need to feel that there is still something out there that they feel they can turn to as an emotional crutch, a secret "friend" they can talk to. I actually somewhat fall into this category. I don't believe in organized religion, but wish there were some "God" looking out for me. Athough my father was an atheist, my mother was a devout Catholic and that is how I was raised. Unfortunately as I get older and wiser I realize that it's not true, and it makes me a bit sad. It also didn't help that our priest, Father Nelson, who was so cool and funny and kind and understanding, was excommunicated when it was discovered that he had a wife and kids. I was 12. I realized then how wrong religion was. Do as we say or to hell with you, no matter how good of a person you are.

Then there are the wackos. Those people that have lost touch with reality and have given themselves over to the delusion that some imaginary being is actually speaking or working through them for some devine purpose. These are the dangerous ones. Like the mothers recently that killed their chidren because God told them to. Both of these were instances where the parents were religious fanatics, they home schooled their children in order to isolate them from the heretics. I believe that anyone that homeschools children should be put through rigorous psychological testing and monitored closely.

[Moses]

Does religion make society weak? Well I guess you have to define weak. I really don't know. But maybe I can remind some of the physicists here. We are a collection of quarks, leptons, and messenger particles. That's all we are, and it's futile for people to look for anything more than personal meaning in things like sunsets, marriage, music or anything mundane. Religion may bring up some people's lives a trifle. So if it makes the society weak, it really doesn't matter does it? In the end it won't make a bit of a difference.

With all my respect, I disagrre very strongly with this way of looking at the Universe and human in Specific, simply if something is "undetected" never means in does exist, like God [Glory an all praise to him] or Soul, or take from another point: I cannot "detect" Alexander the Great...so he does/did not exist... [Message reached?]

Back to the main track:


Evo! you have just put an Axe in my skull :cry: but your comment worth a million :smile:
Yes! I agree totally with you in ALL the informations you used in order to conclude your result, but if there is ONE organized religio which it is true, we cannot say that ALL of them are not true and bad. Your experience is mainly with Christianity [which in my way of looking at it..it is a really big sect of Judaism..that has its own sects within now...] I am not a Christian nor a Jew, but i still beleif that the Lord God exist more even than i am exist, not a blind fiath, but by proof [Nay, he did come to my in the dreams or something like that]

I pissed off to the max from bilnd-faith people, by logic God will not agree with it, and i think this is reality. Yep! I feel SO SAD, REALLY SAD about the U.S here since religion IS a weakness for the society, despite Christinaty has very good things but in total it is a weakness in the American society. Atheism better? Nop. a one reason form many [ohh, i ve spoke too much :smile:] is that is not "organized" and will trun society to a miss by chaning laws by "majority rules" system and then the "art of tricking" the masses will start.

I am totally unhappy with the guys [ and the girls :biggrin: ] throughout history how "invent" religion or change the Universe Lord's Message. They desory lots of masses these big losers. I am sure that my Lord is not happy with what they did as well.

[TENYEARS]

My two cents worth, I don't believe in organized religion, but see the need for it for some people. A lot of people are emotionally frail and need the comfort and emotional security organised religion can give them, it is a needed "crutch". One thing that "Born Again Christians" feed on is distraught people's need to feel loved and accepted, that is what these people prey upon. They sell their religion telling people that they will be loved unconditionally, no more hurt, no more pain, it's sad. But a lot of people need and want this. This emotional "crutch" helps them deal with dissapointment and gives them a feeling of "belonging" so I cannot say it weakens them.

A lot of people are like sheep, they need a herder to keep them going in the right direction, they need someone to tell them what to do. Organized religion does this.

Then there are those that don't need or want the mind control of an organized religion, but still believe in a God. This is also ok. These people have a need to feel that there is still something out there that they feel they can turn to as an emotional crutch, a secret "friend" they can talk to. I actually somewhat fall into this category. I don't believe in organized religion, but wish there were some "God" looking out for me. Athough my father was an atheist, my mother was a devout Catholic and that is how I was raised. Unfortunately as I get older and wiser I realize that it's not true, and it makes me a bit sad. It also didn't help that our priest, Father Nelson, who was so cool and funny and kind and understanding, was excommunicated when it was discovered that he had a wife and kids. I was 12. I realized then how wrong religion was. Do as we say or to hell with you, no matter how good of a person you are.

Then there are the wackos. Those people that have lost touch with reality and have given themselves over to the delusion that some imaginary being is actually speaking or working through them for some devine purpose. These are the dangerous ones. Like the mothers recently that killed their chidren because God told them to. Both of these were instances where the parents were religious fanatics, they home schooled their children in order to isolate them from the heretics. I believe that anyone that homeschools children should be put through rigorous psychological testing and monitored closely.


Evo, much of what you say is all true, but because the real purpose is lost in the suffle. We follow but do not see, is that true with only religion? It seems we do that with every facet of life. There will be those who have the need to see in all they do and those who will see in little. Why are they this way? Is it their inability? No. It is something else something human something unfulfilled.

Evo, do not be afraid to let go for there is something there for you. I would like to see an Evo that has that experience. To be free is what we search for. It is our need, our true desire and our destiny. Yes there are born agains who are that way, but there are born agains who are not. There is a phrase when there are two or more gathered in his name. I tell you this and I say it with more certainty than anything written through out all time. If you bring two or more in that name with that in mind look out. I have never been amoung more than one, I would fear two many. For in those moments there is a potential I would lose more of myself. That is what we all fear and yet that is what we all want. Lol

[Thallium]

My two cents worth, I don't believe in organized religion, but see the need for it for some people. A lot of people are emotionally frail and need the comfort and emotional security organised religion can give them, it is a needed "crutch". One thing that "Born Again Christians" feed on is distraught people's need to feel loved and accepted, that is what these people prey upon. They sell their religion telling people that they will be loved unconditionally, no more hurt, no more pain, it's sad. But a lot of people need and want this. This emotional "crutch" helps them deal with dissapointment and gives them a feeling of "belonging" so I cannot say it weakens them.

A lot of people are like sheep, they need a herder to keep them going in the right direction, they need someone to tell them what to do. Organized religion does this.

Then there are those that don't need or want the mind control of an organized religion, but still believe in a God. This is also ok. These people have a need to feel that there is still something out there that they feel they can turn to as an emotional crutch, a secret "friend" they can talk to. I actually somewhat fall into this category. I don't believe in organized religion, but wish there were some "God" looking out for me. Athough my father was an atheist, my mother was a devout Catholic and that is how I was raised. Unfortunately as I get older and wiser I realize that it's not true, and it makes me a bit sad. It also didn't help that our priest, Father Nelson, who was so cool and funny and kind and understanding, was excommunicated when it was discovered that he had a wife and kids. I was 12. I realized then how wrong religion was. Do as we say or to hell with you, no matter how good of a person you are.

Then there are the wackos. Those people that have lost touch with reality and have given themselves over to the delusion that some imaginary being is actually speaking or working through them for some devine purpose. These are the dangerous ones. Like the mothers recently that killed their chidren because God told them to. Both of these were instances where the parents were religious fanatics, they home schooled their children in order to isolate them from the heretics. I believe that anyone that homeschools children should be put through rigorous psychological testing and monitored closely.

Evo, I am disappointed. My impression of you was that you were a bright, mature woman. Hee I can see nothing but prejudgement. But I do not ask for anything else.

I don't believe in organized religion either. That is manipulation and may cause mass pressure. I am not emotionally frail. That is not why I believe in God. Perhaps, if it be to your liking, we should reconsider how we raise our future(children) and remove those frail fragments of our society. That way, we will have only intellectuals left - people with high moral - and not the craze and savage that faith breeds amond the weaker evolutionary setbacks in our society.

I do not belong anywhere, Evo. I never go to church because I am not too fond of the bondings that are created there between the members. How they depend on one another and others' opinions on what to do and what not to do. I do sense a mild form of condemnation in your message.

Though, you are partly right in your analysis about organized religions and their function as a guide. I'm neither a fan of such fanatics. Sometimes, when I hold other Christians in regard and observe their "insanity", their utter loss of reality, I am sad. Still, I know that, there are other powers. That is what i believe. As it is with everything in the Universe. Different forces fight eachother all the time.

I do hope you will take back some of your prejudice though.

[Thallium]

...do not be afraid to let go for there is something there for you. I would like to see an Evo that has that experience. To be free is what we search for. It is our need, our true desire and our destiny. Yes there are born agains who are that way, but there are born agains who are not. There is a phrase when there are two or more gathered in his name. I tell you this and I say it with more certainty than anything written through out all time. If you bring two or more in that name with that in mind look out. I have never been amoung more than one, I would fear two many. For in those moments there is a potential I would lose more of myself. That is what we all fear and yet that is what we all want. Lol

Such riddles are sickening. This message seems to me nothing but delusive and New Age-inspired. Being part of the world soul etc. And the ultimate goal is pleasure. I just read about it. You talk as if you were a herder. What kind of prophetic gift do you suppose that you possess?

[Moses]

$%^%^*&$%#%@#%%&^$
%#^&&(&^^%&%$^&*&*%^
#@$$#%^&^$$%&^*&*(%&^

Ok, i did the above so more people will read the next i will right, and may be think in depth about it:

Why we judge all religions by JUST looking at Christianity and its former era..Judaism?!?!? And we use our media propaganda is a tool to see other religions?

If the God truely loves us, He will send us a guide and he will NEVER, make us having time on this planet without "saved" revelation of his orders to us [at least the "last edition" of the laws] since the Faith will always be the same...

I am sure that there is some where...even we do not find it yet...or we do not even think that "This religion" IS the one since we have not start thinknig critically thinknig about it :smile:

May The-God help us all and guide us all obey Him, not the lsoers who speak in His name and His religion and they are liers..and fools...

[Thallium]

If God truly loves you, you must believe that he does. A relationship with God is not a monologue.

[Moses]

Well, Thallium, i agrre that the relation ship with God should be from both sides..we human and Him..

Still, on of the thingys that He is grat is even of people "rebel" against
Him, he still provide them with resources [food, drink,love..etc] till the exam time is finished on this planet...and sometimes he punishes too in this life...if it must be accoring to His Wisdom.

Roman Empire fall down against the muslims and the Persina Empire as well, the main reason for that is both societies, were lacking good balance between the spirits and the matter, which make the army weak in hte hard hours... While the muslims army was having a great advantage in that side, and a great disadvantage in numbers of army and weapon..still won...

[Evo]

Evo, I am disappointed. My impression of you was that you were a bright, mature woman. Hee I can see nothing but prejudgement. But I do not ask for anything else. <snip> I do hope you will take back some of your prejudice though.

I would say I am opinionated as opposed to prejudiced. As I mentioned I feel there is a need and a place for both organized religion (which I disagree with) and the need for someone to believe in a God. I also mentioned that I would like to believe that there is a wonderful, loving God that can be my invisible best friend, but I have to admit that I don't believe it. I'm actually serious, I wish there were some evidence, any evidence that God is not man made. If someone needs either of these things, I'm all for it (as long as they do not try to impose their beliefs on me).

[quote-Thallium]I am not emotionally frail. That is not why I believe in God.When I said "Then there are those that don't need or want the mind control of an organized religion, but still believe in a God. This is also ok. These people have a need to feel that there is still something out there that they feel they can turn to as an emotional crutch, a secret "friend" they can talk to." I guess I should have chosen my words more carefully. I wasn't implying they are emotionally weak, but they want/need to feel there is something out there looking after them, that they are never "alone". I am basing this on reasons people that believe in God have given me.

I'd be interested in hearing why you believe in God.

[TENYEARS]

Such riddles are sickening. This message seems to me nothing but delusive and New Age-inspired. Being part of the world soul etc. And the ultimate goal is pleasure. I just read about it. You talk as if you were a herder. What kind of prophetic gift do you suppose that you possess?

The purpose of the truth is not pleasure for in the end there is no eternal Joy no more than there is eternal pain but there is eternal. You project what you read like we all do to some extent on to whatever you see and experience. The whole forum does it including myself foolishly so. I know people in my life who have call me a prophet on multiple occasions. I am not. God selects no one and yet out of god the universe was born and all things into infinity. I can and do have visions of the future which do indeed happen as I know they will when I have them. I also have experienced other things. These things are not some special law defing force but is part of the natural human condition. When the leaves are ready they fall from the tree. If you pick them prematurely you damage the tree if they stay to long they also may damage the tree. My riddles come from me and they are born from a place with no beginning and no end. We all come from there and as your mind opens to this as a witness you will see and experience the universe in that slow walk towards your destiny.

[Moses]

For me, one of the biggest reasons that why i am not Christian [nor a Jew] but still beleving in God is these two faiths HAVE a weakness in thier argument that they from God...I like what Prophet Jesus [BTW:i think he is not God, and even Christians cannot say that he EVER claim so..]
said once: Build your faith on the Rock...

TENYEARS, with all my respect, by just mere logic i cannot believe that what you said is true..unless you proof it to me, I am not saying that you are a lier, but i have the right to believe by proof and thus in a rational way...same thingy about Jesus, Moses and other prophets who people claimed that they did miracles...I DO NOT BELIEVE IN THAT by heaaring about it, since it is a weak proof to build religion on a weak historical resource [aka Bible, with all my deep respect for Christians here]. However, it is proven to me through another way, and i found it a valid proof..[ which is not our topic in this thread..]

Human made religions may organize society...as any goverments despite how bad it is keep the society organized to sum extened regardless of how crab this govement is. But God-Religion IS the system which make the society stronger....a Perfect resource [God] of a system cannot fail in using that system to reach His aim [organizing societies in micro and macro levels, if that system is applied]

[Chronos]

Evolution is not flawed in principle. It correctly assumes that life as we know it is the result of a causal sequence of events: constrained first by the age of the universe, and second, the earliest age afterwards it was possible for life to emerge.

[Moses]

Well, i will not discuess the evolution theory here,
But by seeing some thoeris as evolution,
I can say as well that some scientiest were planned to destroy humanity and morals by thier wrong stupid claims, "As Darwin sayin dat African are closer to monkeys than European white man, and thus it is natural that the white man will whipe the Black man according to the competition [forgot the enlish word] on resources....DARWIN IS A LOSER..the only fact i am sure form it from my first glance looking at his stupid claims...

Still, lots of evolution staff does not condratics my faith, but may contradict Christianity..which itself contradict with science in many places sand science wins usually [except here about evolution, Christianity acheive total victory against Darwin...]

I might be out of track a little bit..and hoping we can discuess this in new/another thread....

[Thallium]

Tenyears, I did not call you a prophet. I feel that your views are somewhat New Age-inspred. Which god are you talking about?

Evo, excuse my rudeness, but I think you want to know why I believe in God so that you may understand more of the craziness of believers. I mean no harm, but I cannot help being skeptic. I believe in God because I chose to. I have had my doubts of course, but I can feel God's safety and love whenever I am willing to, when I pray and spend time thinking about God. I never take part in rituals and I dislike the idea that traditions are important. The most important element in my faith is my free contact with God. I pray that God will use me to do good to others. So when I act unkindly, that is a cause of m beng tempted by my human nature. My rage, my irritation and so on. That was a little more than you had asked for, Evo, but I hope it is not to your disliking. ;)

[TENYEARS]

Lol, it was not you or any one on this forum which called me a prophet and since there is or never was such a thing the words are irrelevant. Like I said god chooses no one. There is only one god out of which all things were created as physics will one day understand. lol My understanding comes from seeing the almighty, from having visions, from seeing another healed with physical evidence and a physical by product outside himself. By understanding what gravity is what matter is. This is what creates the words that come out of my mouth or that pour through my fingers. Then again, has anything other than that ever caused anything?

[Tom McCurdy]

Weakness is in all societies, it is everywhere, from physical to social structures, and indeed it is omnipresent in humans. BUT I think religion is vital in binding people with different ideals, together; people who would not usually come together do because of their similar belief in a god or figure or divinity.
Yes, religion may be a means to define what we don’t know, what science cannot tell us - but is not much of science undefined and unproven itself? We cannot be so quick to say religion shows weakness in society – religion gives peace of mind to those who believe it, and to those who don’t it gives them a wondering sensation, makes them think: is it true? And if a persuasive leader, someone of authority comes along and says “God exists,” they’re going to turn a few heads, and make people wonder if they are correct in saying ‘there is no god’.
If we look back into history, for example, we can see how leaders manipulated religion, or lead the masses or the church structure to protect their divine sovereignty. Take the great Napoleon I, for example; he remodelled the Catholic church in the early 1800's so he could strengthen his society, every Sunday he had his priests, ex-monks and cardinals preaching his word, perverting the bible (like MANY, many people have done) to suit his ideals, propaganda infiltrated those people every week, they hear ‘Napoleon is a divine leader, follow him, for he is the second coming,’ once, and they dismiss it – after a year or two of hearing it, they believe it…what I’m saying is that religion brings people together, it is a means to define life and death, and it is a way of getting political support; this masterpiece of either completely false gospel or celestial truth does certainally not show weakness in society.

When you speak of your examples... does this not show the weakness of society. Religon is a tool, a useful tool to control people. It can bring a sense of hope to people. This fact alone shows how it is a weakness... it shows that we are in the first stages of evolution. We will eventually not need to be told how things we don't understand happened. Posidon will not control the seas forever.

Relgion just shows how humans can be molded.

Also your comments about
"religion is vital in binding people with different ideals, together; people who would not usually come together do because of their similar belief in a god or figure or divinity. " is also incorrect in my opinion. Relgion brings isolated people together... true, but when you view it from a larger standpoint is has been the thing that has prevented people from comming together as a whole. In bringinging isolated people together you create barriers whose thickness still plagues our society today. Religon has been the root cause of many wars... people like Napolean use religon to manipulate people to fight for their own motives. In this fact religon is a weakness of society.

[Tom McCurdy]

The arrogance is beyond me. If you little fools and old fools alike only understood. Your responses are out of weakness. Out of unconcious unused mind. Young stupid fools. My answer is YES. For the it is out of weakness that even science is formed. You must create a method for the thing you do not understand. If you understand it, experience it what is there to create? Once the one who unerstood is gone there is a need to fill a void because why? Because you are not experiening what they did.

Understanding creates what is percieved as strength. It is not strength, it is that in pure understanding there can be no fear only understanding because the experiencer is in a pure state of witness which leaves nothing left for fear.

could you please restate this .... I think I am getting what you are saying but I want to make sure I have what you meant correct.

[Evo]

Evo, excuse my rudeness, but I think you want to know why I believe in God so that you may understand more of the craziness of believers. I mean no harm, but I cannot help being skeptic. I believe in God because I chose to. I have had my doubts of course, but I can feel God's safety and love whenever I am willing to, when I pray and spend time thinking about God. I never take part in rituals and I dislike the idea that traditions are important. The most important element in my faith is my free contact with God. I pray that God will use me to do good to others. So when I act unkindly, that is a cause of m beng tempted by my human nature. My rage, my irritation and so on. That was a little more than you had asked for, Evo, but I hope it is not to your disliking. ;)No, you said that your belief in God wasn't for emotional reasons or the need to feel you aren't alone, which I said were the reasons usually stated by people that didn't buy into organized religion, but still maintained a belief in God. I was sincerely wondering what your reasons were.

[Dooga Blackrazor]

Darwin wasn't a loser. His theories were very insightful regardless of whether they were right or not. Concerning the offensive claim he may have made towards white men whiping out the black men, that was probably incorrect. However, if white men are more evolved on average then it would make sense that black men would eventially become a minority.

This has idea has no real signifigance. Why are black men refered to as black men still? There are few instances where it is necessary to make reference to a black man. Black skin should be considered a variation, like black hair, green eyes, or large hands. If some black men are on average less evolved and can't keep up with society, they might become a minority or end up in lower conditions. We already see this in countries. I don't see how this correlates with prejudice or any prejudice Darwin may or may not have had.

[Chronos]

Religion suffers the same problem as any other non-mathematical approach to describing reality. Organized religion is, I think, not nearly so much a belief system as it is a sociological mechanism to establish and impose social order. It has evolved into the generally more efficient [and less bloody] form of modern governments and the rule of law. Organized religion has, and rightly so, been subsumed under the umbrella of politics. The need for such subcultures will inevitably decline, assuming government and the rule of law becomes increasingly utilitarian. Personal belief systems need not, and should not driven out of society. We simply will outgrow the urge to unjustly impose them on others. It is a good thing to have personal principles, and a sense of purpose and responsibility to promote the welfare of the local and global community. I believe there is a higher order than serving personal interests and ambitions: promoting the survival and advancement of all humanity. Is that a religion or must you have a higher authority, a God, to appeal to? Are you weak if you do and strong if you don't, or vice-versa?

[Thallium]

TenYears, I understand what you are saying ,except, which God do you believe in? Has this God left any words for Mankind, like the Bible. the Koran or anything else? Or is he but a vision, a pantheistic being that you with your own eyes, and only yours, can see inside of your surroundings?

[Moses]

Well, I DO BELEIVE in God, and my reasons are not build in emotion. [ I HATE to have a blind faith....simply]

There is a saying from Prophet Mohammad [Last muslim prophet, as what muslims claimed] which i found it explain in a way the emotional part we are spekaing about here, he is saying -narrating from his God-:

[I created all me servant "humans" obeying me and beleiving in me, then the evil doers make them corrupted and take thme away from thier religion]

The saying of that man [Mohammad] which he claims he is sended to us by God sounds exaclty sa what i think persoanlly: We Do have in our nature "emotions" to beleive in God, in addition to the logical proof i.e. God greated us with an emotional potential to beleive in Him. This never by any way mean that the logical process to proof God has to be mix with emotions...

[Moses]

Well, TENYEARS, I do totally agree with you that if we NEED religion it means we are WEAK, YES, but this apply to all humans, even athiests are WEAK in ths case...imagin how all of us are weak that we need food, drink, [religion?]..etc I totallly agree if you took the question from this angle,

However, we here took the Q from the point which is : Is a sociecty weak if it has religion running in the society? [I will not discuess in this pot about that]

I will clarify more the way we saw the Q by mentioning it in the opposite way: If the society does not have a religion going in it, is it a sign that it is strong?

The way you see the Q and you answer upon it i totally agree about it [ agree about the YES] I will found it odd if somebody will disagree from the members here :smile:

[TENYEARS]

could you please restate this .... I think I am getting what you are saying but I want to make sure I have what you meant correct.

Tom if I explain it I join science and religion and if I do not maybe you will understand them. If so god help you.

[TENYEARS]

TenYears, I understand what you are saying ,except, which God do you believe in? Has this God left any words for Mankind, like the Bible. the Koran or anything else? Or is he but a vision, a pantheistic being that you with your own eyes, and only yours, can see inside of your surroundings?

Thallium, I do not believe in god. I saw god and my god is the god which is only in one place and that is the place we all need to look. When we look in that place will you be able to find a place where god is not? My vision was not of a relative object but of a mind of which I was part of that extended beyond my skin. There was a day when I witnessed the very facet of creation itself. I was very very young, but that experience was I suppose one of the most profound. I am just a normal person When you read words of another you see the compression of sometimes a lifetime of thought and yet on a day to day experience we trudge forward doing what we need to do. There is no eternal utopia no savior and yet there is no external pain but there is an eternal and that is fair but most of all that is reality. In someways reality itself seems uncomprenshible and yet what is even more so which people will one day understand is that the present day view is even more logically incomprehensible.

[TENYEARS]

Well, TENYEARS, I do totally agree with you that if we NEED religion it means we are WEAK, YES, but this apply to all humans, even athiests are WEAK in ths case.

Lol I was going to post that myself about athiests. Belief in any form is weakness for true strength which is not really strength is not believing and not deciding. It is clearing away and waiting until the pressure from the void created by a desire to see opens us to the reality that is. Honesty and the desire to understand will pave the way for anyone.

Happy Thanksgiving to all even if you do not celebrate. May you find truth in today and all that you see.

[Tom McCurdy]

How is belief in the truth weakness. If you have no belief that would in some cases show more weakness than a false belief.

[misogynisticfeminist]

How is belief in the truth weakness. If you have no belief that would in some cases show more weakness than a false belief.

I don't believe that there's such a thing as "no belief". Belief dominates our lives in one way or another. Even the disbelief of a supreme diety still constitutes a belief.

And belief in the "truth", my, sounds a little like a preacher.

[Tom McCurdy]

I wasn't refering to religion with truth... sorry. I meant for example something like a person who believes the earth is a cube versus someone who believes the earth is an oblate spheroid. I believe that latter and i can back it up with scientific data... i believe in the truth... In religon it is impossible to ahve truth currently...

infact does anyone ever think that religon will be able to be disproved...

[Moses]

Tom McCurdy,
i think that religion could be disproved, and could be proved as well...

Simply, if X religion is from God, and that X religion shown a proof that it is from God, thus it is from God.

Now we have reached the bottom question of accepting religion according to me: Using mind ONLY, can that X religion supprot its claim that it is from God, i.e a "proper correct" religion? If it does, thus it is from God and it is proofed in this way, and vise versa.

In this way, I do have a religion, and after a really, really indepth analysis i chose mine [it is not our topic here what is my religion, i guess!] and in the same way i disprove other religions, even the level of disproving that i conclude was different from one rleiiogn to another

[i.e some i conclude that they are absolutely or vast majority not from God. some i can clearly see that their origin are from God but then people changed it so these religions become "out of the track", and the one i had i conclude it is form God, even many people did mistakes and put thier own issues while practising it which it is totally wrong, but the pure true info still there for any one to pick easily...]

An important issue to notify, the proofs that i found them valid are by no means less than the proof you know to believe that the Earth is as what you believe... [imean not less in strength]

[Tom McCurdy]

proving religon indeed is possible...


if all of a sudden all the christians disappear... **** I guess I was wrong.
more to come... out of time

[Tom McCurdy]

th3 point is that religon is weakness... its humans comming up with ways to control others and to explain what otherwise can't be explained.

[Impossible?]

no, it provides comfort, although it is misunderstood

[TENYEARS]

Tom, I tend to disagree with you on relgion in terms of the religion defining what they do not understand in terms of relgious experience or actual reality. The symbolism many times is created because it defines a deeper understanding than hard cold discrete facts. For example if I were blind how would you describe the word blue to me. What it means. Maybe I would place a piece of ice in your hands. That is how relgion is. It attempts to show what is out of the experience of another something which approximates something simliar. To pave a way for that thought to flow. I tell you these things are real for I have experienced them and have no doubt yet to hear my words is just belief one way or another unless one experiences them for one self. This is what makes the real part of religion, much like the real part of science. There are those of religion who do not understand like there are those of science. They are one and the same. The experience of truth in science is like a relgious experience. When I discovered what gravity and matter were on that fateful day I discovered not only the greatest facet of science, but I lived through what some would define as a reglious experience for two days. I will give you a hint, it was what relgion describes as the living water. This is a physical experience in a very subtle form and is part of the complete reality all of humanity will one day understand.

[Tom McCurdy]

no, it provides comfort, although it is misunderstood

in what way do you feel its misunderstood?

[Moses]

proving religon indeed is possible...


if all of a sudden all the christians disappear... **** I guess I was wrong.
more to come... out of time

Sorry Tom McCurdy, i did not get your point completly,

Still, as a comment which it may not be in its place, when we talk abuot religion, i guess it is not wise to limit our discussion to Christianity, never means if the "technological most advanced" countries has Christianty as the most spread religion there that christianty IS the religion, simply NO..

Personally, I beleive that Jesus was from God, and he is not God, and he brought a strenght to the society, but when the Roman Empire change Christianity to become waht the Emperor want [e.g Jesus is God, Trinity, mixing with some pagans issues...etc] its becomes not the religion of Jesus anymore even the basic origin of Christianty before that change was from there [I know, we are not discuessing Christianity here..but i am just giving an example] and this change which made Christianty weaker, and thus make it weakining the society [a good example is the Church dictatorship in the Mideaval ages] even the original part which remained among the changes ones were actually making a strong point in society [i.e love your neighbour, love you God, do not kill...etc]

[TENYEARS]

How is belief in the truth weakness. If you have no belief that would in some cases show more weakness than a false belief.

No belief means I do not know and I will attempt to understand what is but will not settle for belief. It means I will strive to understand until I do understand the truth and nothing less than the truth. Truth is an experience. The greatest human achievements seen and unseen are born from this state. Belief in truth will not change humanity or save our planet or our future. Humanity can only be saved by it's understanding/experience of the truth.

The weakness of belief in the truth means I follow because I do not experience. If I experience what is to follow? I blaze my own path before the truth that is. I find it in every step of my existance. Science/Religion one in the same. How many in science if not at a minimum the greater majority do not understand the very foundation of physics itself. Matter/Gravity. How can humans live their lives and not know what they are, what they are made of, where they came from and where they are going? How can one not need to know this? Live your whole life and not know? No not me. I do not condemn anyone for not knowing for at one time in our existence we were all there and yet I only look to that which I am attached. That is this planet the people that surround me and our paths into the future. When I think of that it motivates me to speak these words.

"He that find the spirt within him go no more out." Humanity should think over these words for they speak of it's destiny.

[Tom McCurdy]

what is your truth tenyears... and how will understanding it save our planet or future. Belief in truth is still belief no matter how defineed.

Also on Matter/Gravity... you claim that understanding it has changed you, how can you understand something that no one truely understands....

Do you know the existance of the graviton... is matter really made up of strings viberating in 11 different dimensions. Your truth is what I consider belief... for you have no way of knowing its truth. Beliving in truth is still believing.

by the way do you use a language translator when posting?

[0TheSwerve0]

Religion is a way of explaining things, a way of ordering the world as it seems best. That step impetus is progress from unknown/chaos to understanding. True, it is not complete truth, but it is the sign of intelligence and logic. I would say, that in the realm of abstracts, religion offers a very helpful and clear way of reasoning.

For example: Concerning right behavior, Christianity offers the belief that the incorrect or negative action is to sin (in Greek) is simply missing the mark. Now, that would be an acceptable place to start. If we postulate that all humans want and intend to make progress (vague and varied as we may understand it as individuals), then what I said about sin would be a corollary of sorts. Next, Christianity offers tangible imagery as representations for certain states of being. If you sin, you are missing the mark and somehow ignorant of what you must do to achieve your goal, and thus are in the dark/in hell and lost. Now, really if you are sinning and are not aware of it and think you are doing fine, then how will you know what the right action is? Just as in Socrate's Cave Metaphor, the people were unaware that they were seeing shadows in place of truth.

Where religion tries to make tangible these abstracts, we run into problems. But as far as creating a structure for progress, religion has the right idea. I think that in itself shows strength.

[Tom McCurdy]

Religion is a way of explaining things, a way of ordering the world as it seems best. That step impetus is progress from unknown/chaos to understanding. True, it is not complete truth, but it is the sign of intelligence and logic. I would say, that in the realm of abstracts, religion offers a very helpful and clear way of reasoning.


Where religion tries to make tangible these abstracts, we run into problems. But as far as creating a structure for progress, religion has the right idea. I think that in itself shows strength.


It is the way that religon explains things that shows weakness. True religon does try to explain things, and in effect this means that people have actually gone through the thought process to ponder about their world and universe which does show intelligence, but the answer they come up with shows the weakness. Religon could be viewed as a step from moving away from a world of unknown and chaos, but it is a step in the wrong direction. Religon attempts to come up with ways to get around the problems of our world. How did the universe start? Many religons offer answers to this question. However the weakness is in the answer. They completly avoid answering the question by comming up with stories. Religon is a step from science which is a step from truth. Many religons describe people being created from clay or straw, how does that compare to our understanding of the human body today? What religon predicted atoms? In truth most religons prevent the growth of human knowledge. In providing answers to questions, the make it seem that the answer has already been found, however in many cases this is not true. Remeber what happened to those who first postulated that the earth was not the center of the universe?

Religon prevents any stucture from happening that could help the growth of human intelligence. In reality religon really is a weakness, a sign that us as humans are still in a relitivly primitive state of being. Eventually we willl know ennough about our universe to no longer need religon, when we reach this point religion will no longer be needed to be a crutch for people to fall back on. If people can accept the universe, they can be content, and in being content they will find happyness.

[TENYEARS]

what is your truth tenyears... and how will understanding it save our planet or future. Belief in truth is still belief no matter how defineed.

Also on Matter/Gravity... you claim that understanding it has changed you, how can you understand something that no one truely understands....

Do you know the existance of the graviton... is matter really made up of strings viberating in 11 different dimensions. Your truth is what I consider belief... for you have no way of knowing its truth. Beliving in truth is still believing.

by the way do you use a language translator when posting?

lol, like I said I do not believe I have been a witness to truth. There is no belief.

I will never say that I understand something that no one truely understands for there have been those in the past, those of the present and those who will be who all understand what I understand. It is part of being human to be able to answer this, to see this. Science is a burocracy of those who want to make names for themselves and to make their mark on the world. It is what holds us back from acknowlging the truth as a fact(still an object to existence to most). I do understand that which the world is made. There is no doubt because it is experience itself. I was a witness to that which science can only assume.

The embarassing thing is those in science who speak of things do not comprehend the implications of what they present. This is not to their inability but to their disinterest in the very thing which they do. They are afraid to look out into the unknown for what they might find. Hide little rabbits. I am not being mean, it is only what is. Not wrong not right only cause and effect. The effect, the effect I will not look anymore.

[CharlesP]

Religion is indeed a sign of a feeble mind. To understand what this means and to predict what it means just remember Easter Island.
They built huge statues to their gods to bribe them into producing a good harvest. As the resources were depleted by overpopulation they built more and more larger statues. Finally when the food crisis reached the starvation point they realized that the statues were to the wrong god and tore them all down. Unfortunately this also failed but by then most of them had died.
I expect the same will be true as the USA becomes more religious and fundamentalist. Mandatory prayer in all schools, loyalty oaths and killing of all gays and atheists will have to occur to appease jesus as the oil runs out. Then when that doesn't work, jews, buddists and all minorities will have to go. Finally that will fail too but by then there will be few Americans left.

[TENYEARS]

There has never been such thing as a feeble mind in the history of all time. In order to know this you would have to understand what intelligence is. The question is did they really starve at easter island? Was it not on the ocean? Are there not fish? I am not satisfied with an scientists review of what happened, but I would be interested in the facts.

People who are hungry for power distort the symbolism of truth for their own gain. Hilter was one. You are correct of what will happen to some degree the question is will it be out of truth or human nature. I think human nature. If religion was not here they would use something else. So is it religon that causes these affects or is it the unconcous existance of humanity as a whole? It is not that man cannot understand, it is that what? Tell me the what and walk free. Who can tell me the what? Why do humans not understand the truth. There is only one thing and one thing alone. The answer is so amazing and so simple your mind will shatter when it hits you. Where will you be when it does?

[CharlesP]

There has never been such thing as a feeble mind in the history of all time.
You need to go see the folks in a nursing home. Then go visit all the churches.

In order to know this you would have to understand what intelligence is. The question is did they really starve at easter island? Was it not on the ocean? Are there not fish? I am not satisfied with an scientists review of what happened, but I would be interested in the facts.
They depleted the fish, like everything else. The population shrank from 10,000 to 300.

[Tom McCurdy]

TEn years you mentioned if religon was not there they would use something else [people] what is it that they would use. Do you feel that people will ever be able to evolve beyond this need to have religon or ... whatever you want to call it.

[TENYEARS]

You need to go see the folks in a nursing home. Then go visit all the churches.


They depleted the fish, like everything else. The population shrank from 10,000 to 300.

The oceans were rich and abundant at that time. Hell the oceans were fairly rich and abundant 100 years ago anything beyond that they were thriving. Fish travel in schools any many of the large fish could feed a few familys for a month. There were also other things to eat. Did you ever think it was potentially a disease or a type of diffiency causes by natural causes or a large hurricane or tropical storm which desimated the Island. There are so many potential possibilities. The facts create are pieces of a puzzle of which humans like to fill in the missing spots. This creates a possibility but not an actuality. They take the probability and make it a bandwagon and everyone jumps on. This to me is no different than the analysis of religion.

The poeple of nursing homes are not of feabile mind. The question is where are their minds.

[Tom McCurdy]

People can be feeble minded, intelligence is something impossible to generalize. There are girls in my school who don't know the sun is a star rather than a planet, their minds are not able to learn at rates of others. When you compare this intellect with say Einstein, then indeed their mind is feeble as is their intelligence.

[TENYEARS]

TEn years you mentioned if religon was not there they would use something else [people] what is it that they would use. Do you feel that people will ever be able to evolve beyond this need to have religon or ... whatever you want to call it.

Yes they will. Humanity will reach a state which science and facets of relgion will blend into one. For science will prove the existence of not only precogniction but god. Lol The scientists will fall back on their heals and the relgious will be angry for what science will attempt to take over. There will be great turmoil for those who will deny on both sides. There will also be those in the middle are from both sides they will be in utter amazement of the whole thing.

Religion is also this: A social exchange in a community. When gathered together in a place to be quite together or to listen to the silence or a good sermon of our human nature and to think in a time when some are so busy with there lives to do so. In one church it was to listen to the voice what had to be angel for her voice was that way. Maybe there is hope that the people can sing in a single voice for humanity itself. Who knows. Don't look at the relgion, look at the truth that exists within it. Discard the rest. Are you one of those who says an album is awsome when it absolutely sucks becasuse there is only one or two good songs on it. Look at it for what it is and take what is good and leave what is not true. If truth is your interest, then follow your instincts and you will be brought before truth.

Not to end on a negative note but Hitler used Nieche. He took his words out of context and exploited them. He placed all of Germany as the genetically choosen race. Not.. lol All races have facets of genetic make up which make them compatible with their environment. The mountain people of the Andes, the Eskimos, etc.. All have traits to make them compatible. Was this not science, a warped Darwinism which almost took over the world?

[TENYEARS]

People can be feeble minded, intelligence is something impossible to generalize. There are girls in my school who don't know the sun is a star rather than a planet, their minds are not able to learn at rates of others. When you compare this intellect with say Einstein, then indeed their mind is feeble as is their intelligence.


Don't be so judgemental. Watch the original planet of the apes movie sometimes. There is a scene where Charlton Heston is being questioned of Ape Law to prove his intelliegence and then tell me what you think. Do you think that it is not that their minds are capable or is it that their interests lie elsewhere? If you place others below you there must also be those above. Place no one above or below for that is the nature of truth. Do you know where real true compassion comes from? It is not relgion, it is absolute truth and understanding. In this state you see not only what is but the pain of others. Judge not but see and look deeply and you will also know them. In knowing them you will like them and understand how it came to be. In that understanding will you judge? We judge when we do not understand or else what is to judge?

[0TheSwerve0]

Amen and will you please marry me :!!)

[Akihiro]

TENYEARS, you used lots of big words and also sentences that do not have any link between each of them in thier content. In other words, your paragraphs do not make any sense. One should never confuse his opponents just to let yourself to have the last say. Your aguments are also, no offense, mostly based on false statements.

The natives of Easter Isalnds indeed underwent mass starvation. Click here:

http://www.netaxs.com/~trance/rapanui.html

The population of Easter Island reached its peak at perhaps more than 10,000, far exceeding the capabilities of the small island's ecosystem. Resources became scarce, and the once lush palm forests were destroyed - cleared for agriculture and moving the massive stone Moai. In this regard, Easter Island has become, for many, a metaphor for ecological disaster.

And would their supposed Gods allow something like this to happen to their worshippers?

Thereafter, a thriving and advanced social order began to decline into bloody civil war and, evidently, cannibalism.

Contacts with western "civilization" proved even more disastrous for the island population which, through slavery and disease, had decreased to approximately 111 by the turn of the century.

[Akihiro]

One must be aware of the definition of the word religion to make this dicussion (not argument) cruising on the right track.

Defintion of 'religion' by The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition: "Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe."

For example: Concerning right behavior, Christianity offers the belief that the incorrect or negative action is to sin (in Greek) is simply missing the mark. Now, that would be an acceptable place to start. If we postulate that all humans want and intend to make progress (vague and varied as we may understand it as individuals), then what I said about sin would be a corollary of sorts. Next, Christianity offers tangible imagery as representations for certain states of being. If you sin, you are missing the mark and somehow ignorant of what you must do to achieve your goal, and thus are in the dark/in hell and lost. Now, really if you are sinning and are not aware of it and think you are doing fine, then how will you know what the right action is? Just as in Socrate's Cave Metaphor, the people were unaware that they were seeing shadows in place of truth.

We don't have to force ourselves to believe in religion just to avoid sinning. (I've also met plenty of Christians who sin without guilt) Besides, there is a disproportionately smaller percentage of atheists in jail than the percentage of atheists in that particular country. Poets can also offer more romantic and expressive representations of certain states of being too. Besides, our mum, dad, teachers, as well as experience with human relationships teaches us what that is right and wrong too.

Furthermore, be aware of what religions are - the worship of a higher being or higher beings. That's the core principle, the rest are secondary.

[TENYEARS]

Akihiro, you are young and have much to learn. Decisions are what we have when we do not understand. Do not decide on truth for truth needs no decsion. You have much much to learn and those lessons will not be found in books.

Note: Because something is written does not mean it is true. The definition of religon in the dictionary is incorrect. The person who wrote it did not understand.

[Tom McCurdy]

TENYEARS...
you assume a lot of things about people, also I can not accept an argument about how some minds are not feeble based on the planet of the apes movie, apps minds are not as capable as our owns, they are not distracted, they just aren't as cabable. It is true that noone uses their full potential of their mind, and yet it is also true that some people are infact smarter than others. My sister has down syndrome, and I love her, but I know that she is not going to grow up as smart as she would if she did not have it.

[Tom McCurdy]

1. For science will prove the existence of not only precogniction but god.

2. The scientists will fall back on their heals and the relgious will be angry for what science will attempt to take over.

3. There will be great turmoil for those who will deny on both sides. There will also be those in the middle are from both sides they will be in utter amazement of the whole thing.

4. In one church it was to listen to the voice what had to be angel for her voice was that way.

5. Maybe there is hope that the people can sing in a single voice for humanity itself.

6. Don't look at the relgion, look at the truth that exists within it.

7. Are you one of those who says an album is awsome when it absolutely sucks becasuse there is only one or two good songs on it.

8. If truth is your interest, then follow your instincts and you will be brought before truth.



TENYEARS RESPONSE an anaylsis

i broke down your repsone and am going to respond to specific sentences, again I will ask if you are using a language translator such as altavista babelfish for your responses...

1. For one thing, I dought that it would ever be science that proves the existance of God, for one thing I dought anyone ever will be cause I don't believe God exists. However getting around my own personal beliefs why and how would science prove the existance of God, that is something science can't do. Proving the existance of God would most likely happen from God revealing himself in some extradornay act. The role of science would be to prove that the events were indeed extraordinary and that what happen could not happen with our laws of physics. Also what happens if science proves that there is no need for God. Assuming we get to the point where we can explain everything about science. How we were created and why we are here.

2. what? Hypothetically speaking lets say you are correct in your presumption that one day God will be proven to exist and it was done with the aid of science. Why would science fall back on its heals, it just have aided in the bigest discovery ever. It would be a joyous day for science and religon both. IT would also provide answers for questions in science. I would project that both the religous and scientists which would then become one group as scientists would be religous would get allong great.

3. WHAT? Where is the turmoil is science is used to prove relgion. If it is proved then it is proved. PROVED implies that it can't be wrong, and if this is true than there will be no turmoil, just a lot of shock. There will be no denying sides because in proving God with science they would JOIN SIDES in essence there would be no sides.

4. WHAT... it does not add anything to the response

5. I can see the part about singing in a single voice, but why for humanity itself.

6. I am going to assume you are talking about organized religon and looking pass to the meaning of religon and yet you discussed the benefits of organized religon with the sermon and angel response.

7. THis was the most ackward placement for this sentence ever. It really has nothing to do with anything at all. On a positive note it gave me a good laugh.

8. You present a second option, look to my insticts for truth, but I am also supose to look beyond religon for truth... I hate to tell you but these would produce two seperate truths... my insticts tell me that there is no God, and peoples belief in religon is a result of cult like brainwashing that all people are subjected to constantly by the society we live in.

[Tom McCurdy]

Akihiro, you are young and have much to learn. Decisions are what we have when we do not understand. Do not decide on truth for truth needs no decsion. You have much much to learn and those lessons will not be found in books.

Note: Because something is written does not mean it is true. The definition of religon in the dictionary is incorrect. The person who wrote it did not understand.

7 entries found for religion.
re·li·gion ( P ) Pronunciation Key (r-ljn)
n.

Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion



So what is the definition of religon, and how is it that you know it

[TENYEARS]

I know it because I experienced what it's founders did. To be or not to be and that really is the question.

[Moses]

Wow! I did not come here since two days and i thought the thread was over,
Thanks God is it alive!

In short, I have a different definiton for religion, remeber the "Dictionary" definition you use is for English Language, which its origin form European societites [UK] with all the aspects of society and culture to be taken into consideration.

The definition i use is : Religion is [the ture religon] The sum of the Faith in God and the system "rules" the He puts for Humans to follow.

By that definiton, "True Religion" is not a weakness. Since its source is Perfect. The weaknesses that may occur is becuase of curroption by the society organizers from people, or if that religion is not from God, or have been changed by people. In the last cases i mentioned. Religion here is subjective to have good and bad staff, AS ANY HUMAN SYSTEM.

Since Religion have a great influence, the errors there if it happened will be severe. And the human history shows that.

Does this make sense or not? I hope so :smile:

[TENYEARS]

Amen and will you please marry me :!!)

Lol, my wife would not be too pleased if I took a second wife. There is someone who is waiting for you though. You don't even need to look. Just do what you do, forget the search and the rest will fall into place.

[Tom McCurdy]

Wow! I did not come here since two days and i thought the thread was over,
Thanks God is it alive!

In short, I have a different definiton for religion, remeber the "Dictionary" definition you use is for English Language, which its origin form European societites [UK] with all the aspects of society and culture to be taken into consideration.

The definition i use is : Religion is [the ture religon] The sum of the Faith in God and the system "rules" the He puts for Humans to follow.

By that definiton, "True Religion" is not a weakness. Since its source is Perfect. The weaknesses that may occur is becuase of curroption by the society organizers from people, or if that religion is not from God, or have been changed by people. In the last cases i mentioned. Religion here is subjective to have good and bad staff, AS ANY HUMAN SYSTEM.

Since Religion have a great influence, the errors there if it happened will be severe. And the human history shows that.

Does this make sense or not? I hope so :smile:

I would argue that your defintion would make religon in its pure form helpful, but that is different from the question of it being a weakness of society. I believe that religon can be a great thing... it can be something for people who have nothing else. It has done great work with charities, and it is able to control population into acting in specific ways... like you said it is a human system. However this does not mean that it is not a weakness in society. To me the fact that people are able to be manipulated so easily by religon, and brought up with religon, shows the weakness in religon. Religon is often merely a tool used by people to gain something for themselves.

[Tom McCurdy]

I know it because I experienced what it's founders did. To be or not to be and that really is the question.

What do you mean you expereinced what it's founders did... you seem to be refering to some deep religous realization or revelation that happened to you, would you mind sharing your experience that brought you so close with religon? Also what do you mean by the shakespere.--To believe or not to believe?

[Moses]

Tom McCurdy, I do agree in all what you said, I do completly beleive that "Human is weak" and thus we strengthen our selves by "tools" like science which gives us some sort of power. Religoin as well is the same issue since we "need" as a person or as a society and thus we are "weak".

However, an important thing i should mention is: A society without a religion is really weak, i mean wekaer than a society which has "true religion". Since the "nice push" the religion give to people that society will lack, add to that the mechanism of that "system". Still that society may be better than another society who suffers severly from curroption in applying the "true religion" or applying a changed version of that religion, or a human mae one.

Our societies, we humans, will be weak always, true religion make it stronger, if not, it depends onb the whole picture to judge if without religion is better or with some corrution and misusing of religion.

I will listen to the Universe master is he really send a message to me :smile:

[Rasine]

i think that religon adds to the culture of socity. it does not weaken it, but sometimes people account it for unexplainable events. today's science is not correct, just more correct than it was and it will continue to evolve in a way which religon is not a simple way to explain phanomina. but religon will always be there. it is not the kind of thing that will ever be concreatly proved to be correct. that is the point of reglion. it is faith and i dont think that will ever be left or ment to be left undoubed.

[Tom McCurdy]

i think that religon adds to the culture of socity. it does not weaken it, but sometimes people account it for unexplainable events. today's science is not correct, just more correct than it was and it will continue to evolve in a way which religon is not a simple way to explain phanomina. but religon will always be there. it is not the kind of thing that will ever be concreatly proved to be correct. that is the point of reglion. it is faith and i dont think that will ever be left or ment to be left undoubed.

Religon may add to the culture of socitey, and yet it could still show weakness. It is the fact that it is used as oposed to science to explain unexplainable events that it is weak. How did we get here? Well in the begining God took some clay and put us in a oven on 350... cooked for 20 minutes and bing... we got here. Its the fact that we use it for this that it shows our weakness. I agree with you that science is not pefect, but science bluntly states that it isn't perfect and the important thing is that science does not try to cover up for what it doesn't know. Instead people try to solve the particular problem.

[Tom McCurdy]

Tom McCurdy, I do agree in all what you said, I do completly beleive that "Human is weak" and thus we strengthen our selves by "tools" like science which gives us some sort of power. Religoin as well is the same issue since we "need" as a person or as a society and thus we are "weak".

However, an important thing i should mention is: A society without a religion is really weak, i mean wekaer than a society which has "true religion". Since the "nice push" the religion give to people that society will lack, add to that the mechanism of that "system". Still that society may be better than another society who suffers severly from curroption in applying the "true religion" or applying a changed version of that religion, or a human mae one.

Our societies, we humans, will be weak always, true religion make it stronger, if not, it depends onb the whole picture to judge if without religion is better or with some corrution and misusing of religion.

I will listen to the Universe master is he really send a message to me :smile:

What do you mean by true religon... Religon no matter which one can't be completly true, every religon has been screwed with ennough for that. True Religon is at best a Utopian ideal, in which case if there was a god then having the correct faith would be helpful, but any deviation from that would show weakness. However in the event, which i believe that no religion is correct because there is no God then any religon of any sort shows weakness. It shows how primitive our minds are as humans, that we could be fooled into something that completly contridicts experimental observation.

[Moses]

Well, What i meant is simply IF there is a true religion then....[as what i showed in the post]

Saying a small thingy about what you wrote: Well, I DO believe in God, and i hate the fanatic way of beleive or the blind faith. And now i am following a religion which i a, certain by using my mind and mere logic that it is from God. I could be wrong even i beleive that i am correct in this matter. Still i am opening my mind, not lack of faith, but for the logical process to be fullfilled in finding the truth.

Build on that : Yes! From my frame of refernce, i think that the Ture Religion that i am following is a strong factor in the society of humans, the weak creatures who need thier God and a religion from him. Still , I am really angry why some people even misusing the true religion from God for thier benefits. And i found it natural that there is no "perfectness" in performing the "theory" or religion [Faith , and laws]. Do we perfectly use our scientific theory for the gaols we want [regardless if it is bad or goo] the answer is: human is not perfect, thus the performing is not perfect, still some perforamnce is good, other good with bad "different ratios", and a third which it is bad...etc

P.S: Please dont hesitate in asking me to devide my point or make them more clearer, I know i am having problem in communicating for some personal reasons. If i am saying too many things and making the "spagetti" please tell me to organize them :smile:

[Tom McCurdy]

orgaize them :) actually I am curious to ask you if you belive that you are following a relgion that is 100% true, that infact everything in you faith is correct and how sure you are about it. I also am interested in what you did to question you faith when you did.

Also it seems that you would agree in saying that religon does show weakness in society if it is not true. The problem presented is how do you justify that your religon is correct and others faith is incorrect when you have nothing but your own instict to base it on. A major problem I have with religon is that it is based on things besides pure faith. Religon is orgainzsed now and I believe all forms of organized religon are tainted to a degree.

[tiger_striped_cat]

I value my collection of quarks-- I don't know why I am here, but I enjoy being here ...

Religion is often created to account for the unexplained-- we explain the unexplained there is no need for religion.

You guys are proving my point. Your value is entirely subjective. You say you "value" you're quarks, leptons, and messenger particles? That has absolutely no binding on anyone but yourself. Why should I value what you value? Are you saying that everyone should see this same value as you. I'm glad you found meaning in a life that is devoid of one. But don't expect me to believe in some value just because some amalgamation of fundamental particles in the form of an evolved subhuman's determined psychology and body chemicals told him to tell me that.

So in the same vein, the same way you find value in some way, people find value through religion. I think you would be as hard pressed to defend this value, as the person on here that believes in the progress of humanity, as the person who believes in God when I as the simple question, "Why should I believe in this value of yours?"

[Tom McCurdy]

Your argument could be used against you in the same way... why should people believe what your beliefs are... we are both trying to state our cases... what we believe in and why we believe it.

[Tom McCurdy]

It is hard to convince someone who is religous that what they are doing is a sign of weakness in society... if they thought this then they would not be participating in religon. However it seems clear to me that religon is a tool wielded by society throughout history to conrol people. To make them behave, and to motivate them to do things they otherwise wouldn't such as die in a war that was for personal greed rather than anything else. Religon is also just a way of trying to come up with excuses of stuff that has not yet been explained by science.

[TENYEARS]

You guys are proving my point. Your value is entirely subjective. You say you "value" you're quarks, leptons, and messenger particles? That has absolutely no binding on anyone but yourself. Why should I value what you value? Are you saying that everyone should see this same value as you. I'm glad you found meaning in a life that is devoid of one. But don't expect me to believe in some value just because some amalgamation of fundamental particles in the form of an evolved subhuman's determined psychology and body chemicals told him to tell me that.

So in the same vein, the same way you find value in some way, people find value through religion. I think you would be as hard pressed to defend this value, as the person on here that believes in the progress of humanity, as the person who believes in God when I as the simple question, "Why should I believe in this value of yours?"

Let us go with striped tiger cat, are these particles and energy emissions a direct witnessing? No it is a machine which works with a machine which works with parts which works with formulas which works with parts which works with formulas. Any and all of this process although repetative was not designed by you and there for one uses them with FAITH. lol lol lol lol

Science is as bad as relgion because all scientist have faith. That faith is in others who created processes came up with ideas and measurements which may or may not be accurate but are accepted as so. Lol lol lol lol

If a scientist, religious or both are to transcend belief transcend faith they must indeed desire to understand. That understanding cannot be found in a book or in the words of another. The understanding will be an experience and the experiencer will know the difference. Will you? This experience is that which moves creation itself. Until then you really know NOTHING.

[Tom McCurdy]

Let us go with striped tiger cat, are these particles and energy emissions a direct witnessing? No it is a machine which works with a machine which works with parts which works with formulas which works with parts which works with formulas. Any and all of this process although repetative was not designed by you and there for one uses them with FAITH. lol lol lol lol

Science is as bad as relgion because all scientist have faith. That faith is in others who created processes came up with ideas and measurements which may or may not be accurate but are accepted as so. Lol lol lol lol

If a scientist, religious or both are to transcend belief transcend faith they must indeed desire to understand. That understanding cannot be found in a book or in the words of another. The understanding will be an experience and the experiencer will know the difference. Will you? This experience is that which moves creation itself. Until then you really know NOTHING.

You can't compare the faith in religon with the faith in scientests.... for one thing people don't just trust scientests. Discoveries are generally slow to be accepted until repeatly proved.... Unlike going on some word of someone who has said they have talked to god. MANY people all over the world currently claim to have a connection with God, many people belive they are God or Jesus, however our society pays no attention to them. To me its just as likely one of them is correct as it was 2000 years ago. People just didn't have the background back then to sucessfully question what was told to them.

[TENYEARS]

Tom, you are obviously not only just a kid but one that wants to hear himself speak. This will be my last post on this foolish conversation. LoL

Did you make the instrument? Did you create the formulas that make it work? All of them? To you know their degree of error? Do you know exactlly the materials they are made of? Their composition exactally. Thier composition with realtion to their exact physical area of use and the surrounding area and it's complete composition? No.. That is faith. You have faith that the instruments of science and technology will provide you truth and what it really provides is an approximation of an approximation of a refected or non observalbe reality which is based on the approximation of an after affect. All based on faith of all the makers. A thousand times LoL.

This thread has now been completed. Truth is not faith, it is completeness beyond what you presently understand. Stop now. Kind of reminds me of Zantras old line from the comerical "Hit it with a hammer." Lol

[Moses]

TENYEARS.
First: Simply, you are not the one who decide if the thread is finished or no. If the mentor find it unapporaite to continue, he will lock it, do not worry and chill out. lol

Second: That what you are talking about is called: Trust, you trust who made the instruemnt that bla bla bla about the instrument he claimed otbe it is true. Your 'faith' in that guy/girl who created taht instrument depends on many factors -which it is not our topic here-.

Yeah, for me, the religion that i believe that it is from God has been reached to me through a person. I DID accept that relgion after i checked that person credibility, and concluded that "That person cannot be a lier against God". Further, he has been supported by "God signatures" aka miracles to support his claim that the Universe Lord sent him to humans.

Simply, on this i build my "Faith". I do not care if it is scientific way or no, but it is logical. The proper faith is strong, as well as any correct answer as stong by its correct method :biggrin: