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Caroline Thompson
Nov3-04, 10:06 AM
<jabberwocky><div class="vbmenu_control"><a href="jabberwocky:;" onClick="newWindow=window.open('','usenetCode','toolbar=no, location=no,scrollbars=yes,resizable=yes,status=no ,width=650,height=400'); newWindow.document.write('<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Usenet ASCII</TITLE></HEAD><BODY topmargin=0 leftmargin=0 BGCOLOR=#F1F1F1><table border=0 width=625><td bgcolor=midnightblue><font color=#F1F1F1>This Usenet message\'s original ASCII form: </font></td></tr><tr><td width=449><br><br><font face=courier><UL><PRE>"N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc)" &lt;N: dlzc1 D:cox T:net@nospam.com&gt; wrote in\nmessage news:VEfgd.22437\\$SW3.3788@fed1read01...\n&gt; "TomGee" &lt;lvlus@hotmail.com&gt; wrote in message\n&gt;&gt; "Ken Kubos" &lt;kubos@execpc.com&gt; wrote in message\n&gt;&gt; news:&lt;10o1rd9ppnl2e92@corp.supernews.com&gt;...\n\nRe Press Release:\n&gt;&gt;&gt; http://www.physorg.com/news1755.html\n&gt;&gt;&gt;\n&gt;&gt;&gt; Photons Under Control\n&gt;&gt;&gt; October 28, 2004\n&gt;&gt;&gt;\n&gt;&gt;&gt; Building block created for quantum-computing, secure communication and\n&gt;&gt;&gt; quantum Internet\n\nFull ref to paper:\nMatthias Keller, Birgit Lange, Kazuhiro Hayasaka, Wolfgang Lange & Herbert\nWalther, "Continuous generation of single photons with controlled waveform\nin an ion-trap cavity system", Nature 431, 1085, 28 October 2004\n\nUnfortunately I can\'t readily get hold of a copy, since the claims sound\ninteresting.\n\n&gt;&gt; Thanks, Ken, for the information you posted. Do you have an opinion as\n&gt;&gt; to the wavelength of a single photon?\n\nThe emitted "photons" are all supposed to have wavelength 866 nm, according\nto the Press Release.\n\nPerhaps what you mean is the pulse duration? From the graphs this seems to\nbe about 2 ns for a "photon" with a single peak to its profile, about 4 ns\nfor a double-peaked one.\n\nBut the fascinating question is whether or not what they are seeing is in\nfact consistent with the accepted ideas of what a "photon" is! They say\nthat the double-peaked time spectrum represents observations on *single\nphotons*. These are obtained by varying the pump profile in a similar\npattern. How can what we are seeing be anything other than a purely wave\neffect, especially in view of the fact that the emission only occurs when\nthe ion is in a resonant state between two mirrors?\n\nA resonance cannot happen instantaneously! I have not checked but would in\nany event be happy to bet that, if they were to allow some light to escape\nthrough the other mirror of the pair, they could detect a simultaneous\n"photon" there! In other words, they are not producing "single photons" but\ncomplete wave systems. [Equally, I wonder if, with the use of detectors\nwith dead times of less than 2 ns, they could detect each double-peaked\n"photon", if not all "photons", more than once.]\n\nOK, so clearly my notion of the modern idea of what a "photon" is must be\nwrong! I\'m assuming it means the indivisible little fellow that cannot be\nsplit, as per the Copenhagen interpretation of quantum theory. But if it is\nan extended pulse (which I have always believed -- see for example\nhttp://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/9711044) and *can* be split (or detected twice\nif only we have sufficiently short dead times in our detectors), why cling\nto the term "single photon"? Why not just say "accurately controlled light\npulse"?\n\n&gt; It was an excited calcium atom. It has a few hundred associated\n&gt; characteristic energy levels, each of which could mathematically be\n&gt; back-calculated to a wavelength. It wouldn\'t *mean* anything, however.\n\nWhy not? The dimensions of the cavity are presumably carefully chosen so\nthat an exact number of wavelengths span the trap. The wavelength is surely\na very meaningful quantity.\n\nCheers\nCaroline\n\nCaroline H Thompson\n\nch.thompson1@virgin.net\nhttp://freespace.virgin.net/ch.thompson1/\n\n</UL></PRE></font></td></tr></table></BODY><HTML>');"> <IMG SRC=/images/buttons/ip.gif BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER ALT="View this Usenet post in original ASCII form">&nbsp;&nbsp;View this Usenet post in original ASCII form </a></div><P></jabberwocky>"N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc)" <N: dlzc1 D:cox T:net@nospam.com> wrote in
message news:VEfgd.22437$SW3.3788@fed1read01...
> "TomGee" <lvlus@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> "Ken Kubos" <kubos@execpc.com> wrote in message
>> news:<10o1rd9ppnl2e92@corp.supernews.com>...

Re Press Release:
>>> http://www.physorg.com/news1755.html
>>>
>>> Photons Under Control
>>> October 28, 2004
>>>
>>> Building block created for quantum-computing, secure communication and
>>> quantum Internet

Full ref to paper:
Matthias Keller, Birgit Lange, Kazuhiro Hayasaka, Wolfgang Lange & Herbert
Walther, "Continuous generation of single photons with controlled waveform
in an ion-trap cavity system", Nature 431, 1085, 28 October 2004

Unfortunately I can't readily get hold of a copy, since the claims sound
interesting.

>> Thanks, Ken, for the information you posted. Do you have an opinion as
>> to the wavelength of a single photon?

The emitted "photons" are all supposed to have wavelength 866 nm, according
to the Press Release.

Perhaps what you mean is the pulse duration? From the graphs this seems to
be about 2 ns for a "photon" with a single peak to its profile, about 4 ns
for a double-peaked one.

But the fascinating question is whether or not what they are seeing is in
fact consistent with the accepted ideas of what a "photon" is! They say
that the double-peaked time spectrum represents observations on *single
photons*. These are obtained by varying the pump profile in a similar
pattern. How can what we are seeing be anything other than a purely wave
effect, especially in view of the fact that the emission only occurs when
the ion is in a resonant state between two mirrors?

A resonance cannot happen instantaneously! I have not checked but would in
any event be happy to bet that, if they were to allow some light to escape
through the other mirror of the pair, they could detect a simultaneous
"photon" there! In other words, they are not producing "single photons" but
complete wave systems. [Equally, I wonder if, with the use of detectors
with dead times of less than 2 ns, they could detect each double-peaked
"photon", if not all "photons", more than once.]

OK, so clearly my notion of the modern idea of what a "photon" is must be
wrong! I'm assuming it means the indivisible little fellow that cannot be
split, as per the Copenhagen interpretation of quantum theory. But if it is
an extended pulse (which I have always believed -- see for example
http://arxiv.org/abs/http://www.arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/9711044) and *can* be split (or detected twice
if only we have sufficiently short dead times in our detectors), why cling
to the term "single photon"? Why not just say "accurately controlled light
pulse"?

> It was an excited calcium atom. It has a few hundred associated
> characteristic energy levels, each of which could mathematically be
> back-calculated to a wavelength. It wouldn't *mean* anything, however.

Why not? The dimensions of the cavity are presumably carefully chosen so
that an exact number of wavelengths span the trap. The wavelength is surely
a very meaningful quantity.

Cheers
Caroline

Caroline H Thompson

ch.thompson1@virgin.net
http://freespace.virgin.net/ch.thompson1/

N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc)
Nov4-04, 03:42 AM
<jabberwocky><div class="vbmenu_control"><a href="jabberwocky:;" onClick="newWindow=window.open('','usenetCode','toolbar=no, location=no,scrollbars=yes,resizable=yes,status=no ,width=650,height=400'); newWindow.document.write('<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Usenet ASCII</TITLE></HEAD><BODY topmargin=0 leftmargin=0 BGCOLOR=#F1F1F1><table border=0 width=625><td bgcolor=midnightblue><font color=#F1F1F1>This Usenet message\'s original ASCII form: </font></td></tr><tr><td width=449><br><br><font face=courier><UL><PRE>Dear Caroline Thompson:\n\n"Caroline Thompson" &lt;ch.thompson1@virgin.net&gt; wrote in message\nnews:tPKhd.2820\\$yg3.1743@newsfe3-win.ntli.net...\n&gt; "N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc)" &lt;N: dlzc1 D:cox T:net@nospam.com&gt; wrote in\n&gt; message news:VEfgd.22437\\$SW3.3788@fed1read01...\n....\n&gt; &gt; It was an excited calcium atom. It has a few hundred associated\n&gt;&gt; characteristic energy levels, each of which could mathematically be\n&gt;&gt; back-calculated to a wavelength. It wouldn\'t *mean* anything, however.\n&gt;\n&gt; Why not? The dimensions of the cavity are presumably carefully chosen so\n&gt; that an exact number of wavelengths span the trap. The wavelength is\n&gt; surely\n&gt; a very meaningful quantity.\n\nHow can it be meaningful? The photon is contained in/with/by an excited\ncalcium atom, that is "triggered" by a laser. The "trap" simply holds the\ncalcium... not the photon.\n\nDavid A. Smith\n\n</UL></PRE></font></td></tr></table></BODY><HTML>');"> <IMG SRC=/images/buttons/ip.gif BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER ALT="View this Usenet post in original ASCII form">&nbsp;&nbsp;View this Usenet post in original ASCII form </a></div><P></jabberwocky>Dear Caroline Thompson:

"Caroline Thompson" <ch.thompson1@virgin.net> wrote in message
news:tPKhd.2820$yg3.1743@newsfe3-win.ntli.net...
> "N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc)" <N: dlzc1 D:cox T:net@nospam.com> wrote in
> message news:VEfgd.22437$SW3.3788@fed1read01...
....
>> It was an excited calcium atom. It has a few hundred associated
>> characteristic energy levels, each of which could mathematically be
>> back-calculated to a wavelength. It wouldn't *mean* anything, however.
>
> Why not? The dimensions of the cavity are presumably carefully chosen so
> that an exact number of wavelengths span the trap. The wavelength is
> surely
> a very meaningful quantity.

How can it be meaningful? The photon is contained in/with/by an excited
calcium atom, that is "triggered" by a laser. The "trap" simply holds the
calcium... not the photon.

David A. Smith

rge11x
Nov5-04, 08:20 AM
<jabberwocky><div class="vbmenu_control"><a href="jabberwocky:;" onClick="newWindow=window.open('','usenetCode','toolbar=no, location=no,scrollbars=yes,resizable=yes,status=no ,width=650,height=400'); newWindow.document.write('<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Usenet ASCII</TITLE></HEAD><BODY topmargin=0 leftmargin=0 BGCOLOR=#F1F1F1><table border=0 width=625><td bgcolor=midnightblue><font color=#F1F1F1>This Usenet message\'s original ASCII form: </font></td></tr><tr><td width=449><br><br><font face=courier><UL><PRE>\n\n\n\nFor another rather dim view of what may or may not be in/with/by an\nexcited atom read W.E. Lamb: Anti-photon, Applied Physics B, v60,\npp77-84 (1995).\nI would just quote the end of this article:\n"[...] Here the normal mode waves of a purely classical electrodynamics\nappear, and for each normal mode there is an equivalent pseudo-simple\nharmonic ocsillator particle which may then have a wave function whose\nargument is the corresponding normal-mode ampltitude. Note that the\nparticle is not a photon. One might rather think of a multiplicity of\nwave concepts and a particle concept for each normal mode of the\nradiation field. However, such concepts are really not useful or\nappropriate. The "Complementarity Principle" and the notion of the\nwave-particle duality were introduced by N.Bohr in 1927. They reflect\nthe fact he mostly dealt with theoretical concepts, and left the\ndetailed work to post-doctoral assitants. It is very likely that Bohr\nnever, by himself, made a significant quantum-mechanical calculation\nafter the formulation of quantum mechanics in 1925-1926."\n\n</UL></PRE></font></td></tr></table></BODY><HTML>');"> <IMG SRC=/images/buttons/ip.gif BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER ALT="View this Usenet post in original ASCII form">&nbsp;&nbsp;View this Usenet post in original ASCII form </a></div><P></jabberwocky>For another rather dim view of what may or may not be in/with/by an
excited atom read W.E. Lamb: Anti-photon, Applied Physics B, v60,
pp77-84 (1995).
I would just quote the end of this article:
"[...] Here the normal mode waves of a purely classical electrodynamics
appear, and for each normal mode there is an equivalent pseudo-simple
harmonic ocsillator particle which may then have a wave function whose
argument is the corresponding normal-mode ampltitude. Note that the
particle is not a photon. One might rather think of a multiplicity of
wave concepts and a particle concept for each normal mode of the
radiation field. However, such concepts are really not useful or
appropriate. The "Complementarity Principle" and the notion of the
wave-particle duality were introduced by N.Bohr in 1927. They reflect
the fact he mostly dealt with theoretical concepts, and left the
detailed work to post-doctoral assitants. It is very likely that Bohr
never, by himself, made a significant quantum-mechanical calculation
after the formulation of quantum mechanics in 1925-1926."