<jabberwocky><div class="vbmenu_control"><a href="jabberwocky:;" onClick="newWindow=window.open('','usenetCode','toolbar=no, location=no,scrollbars=yes,resizable=yes,status=no ,width=650,height=400'); newWindow.document.write('<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Usenet ASCII</TITLE></HEAD><BODY topmargin=0 leftmargin=0 BGCOLOR=#F1F1F1><table border=0 width=625><td bgcolor=midnightblue><font color=#F1F1F1>This Usenet message\'s original ASCII form: </font></td></tr><tr><td width=449><br><br><font face=courier><UL><PRE>\n\nIgor Khavkine <k_igor_k@lycos.com> wrote in message news:<pan.2004.11.15.00.29.45.213646@lycos.com>... \n> On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 17:59:29 +0000, alistair wrote:\n> > Igor Khavkine <k_igor_k@lycos.com> wrote in message\n> > news:<pan.2004.11.10.06.10.43.771543@lycos.com>... \n> >> On Tue, 09 Nov 2004 20:54:59 +0000, alistair wrote:\n> >>\n> >> > As a virtual photon approaches an electron,it will be blueshifted by\n> >> > the gravity of the electron.\n> >>\n> >> Since virtual photons are internal wavy lines drawn in Feynman diagrams,\n> >> I doubt we\'ll ever be able to draw them small enough to be of size\n> >> comparable to the electron.\n> >>\n> >> > This blue shift will become infinite in magnitude if gravity gets\n> >> > stronger and stronger, the closer the virtual photon gets to the\n> >> > electron. So the probability that an electron will absorb photons of\n> >> > infinite energy must be zero.\n> >>\n> >> Baseless speculation. Electron Schwartzschild radius is 10^(-51) meters,\n> >\n> > We can\'t even know if an electron has a Schwarzschild radius! This is\n> > partly why I asked the original question:the fact that virtual photons\n> > don\'t give rise to colossal gravitational effects as they approach\n> > electrons suggests that gravity is not Newtonian or Einstinian for virtual\n> > photons and electrons that are close together, and is probably a hint that\n> > the electron does not have an infinite mass density at a single point in\n> > space i.e the electron could have structure or be a string of some kind.\n>\n> What "colossal gravitational effects"? How would you know them if you see\n> them? I doubt you\'ll see any quantum gravitational effects due\n> to virtual photons. Since they are made of ink on paper, their interaction\n> with gravitation is quite classical.\n\nVirtual photons may not be "ink on paper".People speak of them as\ncalculational aids but how can something merely theoretical cause the\nbehaviour in the real world of electric charges and photons.Whatever\nvirtual photons are, I do not think they are just a construct of the\nhuman imagination.\n>\n> In my previous post I compared the electron Schwartzschild radius, which\n> you quoted above, and the electron Compton wavelength of 10^(-12) meters,\n> which you neglected to include. The first number gives us the radius the\n> electron would have to have so that its mass concentration requires the\n> use of GR (classical, not even quantum). The second number gives the\n> approximate spread of the electron wave function in space. The conclusion\n> we can draw from this comparison is that the mass concentration of the\n> electron in any point in space is about 40 orders of magnitude too small\n> to invoke even classical GR.\n\nWe cannot assign mass densities to electrons since we know nothing\nabout\ntheir size, except that they appear to have no structure up to 10^-18\nmetres.\nAnd without proof of what mass is and how it comes into existence,we\ndo not even know that an electron has a mass at very small\ndistances.And the same goes for the electric charge.\n>\n> > Alpha is independent of wavelength for virtual photons in QED, so I would\n> > expect that gravity is not related to alpha anyway,on second thoughts.\n>\n> Hind site is 20/20, although your reasons for discarding this conjecture\n> do not seem to be better grounded than the ones that first lead to it.\n>\n> Igor\n\nI disagree:I think the the original conjecture was perfectly sound but\nI should have emphasised that I was working from the basis that I\nthink virtual photons are real i.e they have energy.\n</UL></PRE></font></td></tr></table></BODY><HTML>');"> <IMG SRC=/images/buttons/ip.gif BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER ALT="View this Usenet post in original ASCII form"> View this Usenet post in original ASCII form </a></div><P></jabberwocky>Igor Khavkine <k_{igor_k}@lycos.com> wrote in message news:<pan.2004.11.15.00.29.45.213646@lycos.com>...
> On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 17:59:29 +0000, alistair wrote:
> > Igor Khavkine <k_{igor_k}@lycos.com> wrote in message
> > news:<pan.2004.11.10.06.10.43.771543@lycos.com>...
> >> On Tue, 09 Nov 2004 20:54:59 +0000, alistair wrote:
> >>
> >> > As a virtual photon approaches an electron,it will be blueshifted by
> >> > the gravity of the electron.
> >>
> >> Since virtual photons are internal wavy lines drawn in Feynman diagrams,
> >> I doubt we'll ever be able to draw them small enough to be of size
> >> comparable to the electron.
> >>
> >> > This blue shift will become infinite in magnitude if gravity gets
> >> > stronger and stronger, the closer the virtual photon gets to the
> >> > electron. So the probability that an electron will absorb photons of
> >> > infinite energy must be zero.
> >>
> >> Baseless speculation. Electron Schwartzschild radius is 10^(-51) meters,
> >
> > We can't even know if an electron has a Schwarzschild radius! This is
> > partly why I asked the original question:the fact that virtual photons
> > don't give rise to colossal gravitational effects as they approach
> > electrons suggests that gravity is not Newtonian or Einstinian for virtual
> > photons and electrons that are close together, and is probably a hint that
> > the electron does not have an infinite mass density at a single point in
> > space i.e the electron could have structure or be a string of some kind.
>
> What "colossal gravitational effects"? How would you know them if you see
> them? I doubt you'll see any quantum gravitational effects due
> to virtual photons. Since they are made of ink on paper, their interaction
> with gravitation is quite classical.
Virtual photons may not be "ink on paper".People speak of them as
calculational aids but how can something merely theoretical cause the
behaviour in the real world of electric charges and photons.Whatever
virtual photons are, I do not think they are just a construct of the
human imagination.
>
> In my previous post I compared the electron Schwartzschild radius, which
> you quoted above, and the electron Compton wavelength of 10^(-12) meters,
> which you neglected to include. The first number gives us the radius the
> electron would have to have so that its mass concentration requires the
> use of GR (classical, not even quantum). The second number gives the
> approximate spread of the electron wave function in space. The conclusion
> we can draw from this comparison is that the mass concentration of the
> electron in any point in space is about 40 orders of magnitude too small
> to invoke even classical GR.
We cannot assign mass densities to electrons since we know nothing
about
their size, except that they appear to have no structure up to 10^-18
metres.
And without proof of what mass is and how it comes into existence,we
do not even know that an electron has a mass at very small
distances.And the same goes for the electric charge.
>
> > \Alpha is independent of wavelength for virtual photons in QED, so I would
> > expect that gravity is not related to \alpha anyway,on second thoughts.
>
> Hind site is 20/20, although your reasons for discarding this conjecture
> do not seem to be better grounded than the ones that first lead to it.
>
> Igor
I disagree:I think the the original conjecture was perfectly sound but
I should have emphasised that I was working from the basis that I
think virtual photons are real i.e they have energy.