View Full Version : Rachel Corrie
Rachel Corrie was a girl who found a cause and was brave enough to sacrifice her life to it. She was trying to prevent the Israeli military destroying the homes of Palestinian civilians, and they ran over her with a bulldozer. Here you can read her first-hand reports of what she witnessed in Israel.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,3604,916246,00.html
Well, Israeli troops have a long history of violence towards anyone who is not Israeli. It is a result, I think, of living uinder siege for so long, that they have been forced into a 'practical sociopathy', in which anyone who is not Israeli, or a supporter of Israel, isn't actually human.
russ_watters
Sep2-03, 05:17 PM
I guess her mother forgot to teach her that standing in front of heavy machinery is inherrently dangerous.
I do feel for her parents, but she was a stupid, stupid girl.
Originally posted by russ_watters
I guess her mother forgot to teach her that standing in front of heavy machinery is inherrently dangerous.
I do feel for her parents, but she was a stupid, stupid girl. Yep, standing up for anything but cash is stupid, stupid.
Originally posted by Zero
Yep, standing up for anything but cash is stupid, stupid.
Yeah, I have to agree, she should be martyred for standing up and protecting those tunnels used for smuggling arms and drugs. Oh, wait, she already was martyred in the Name of Allah, the Merciful, the Most Merciful! “Bismillah arahman araheem”
Originally posted by kat
Yeah, I have to agree, she should be martyred for standing up and protecting those tunnels used for smuggling arms and drugs. Oh, wait, she already was martyred in the Name of Allah, the Merciful, the Most Merciful! “Bismillah arahman araheem” I'd love to see your source. I can already see your anti-Islamic bias.
Originally posted by kat
Yeah, I have to agree, she should be martyred for standing up and protecting those tunnels used for smuggling arms and drugs. Oh, wait, she already was martyred in the Name of Allah, the Merciful, the Most Merciful! ?Bismillah arahman araheem?
Oh but the oringal reason for the demolition was given as that they needed to clear a line of site between the Egyptian border and an Israeli watchtower and that house was only one in a 100m strip that was being destroyed. Also you'll note that no tunnel was found.
Originally posted by jcsd
Oh but the oringal reason for the demolition was given as that they needed to clear a line of site between the Egyptian border and an Israeli watchtower and that house was only one in a 100m strip that was being destroyed. Also you'll note that no tunnel was found. One of teh biggest problems I see in Israeli-Palestinian confrontations is that the Israelis can shoot anyone over the age of 14, and label them a 'combatant', and there is no one who checks behind that.
and i can't rightly see how she would be "martyred in the Name of Allah" when she was not even a Muslum.
There are human rights groups like B'Tselem that attempt to document all the deaths, the problem is that in general this doesn't filter through to the American public and in general they are ignorant of the realities on the ground there.
Originally posted by kyleb
and i can't rightly see how she would be "martyred in the Name of Allah" when she was not even a Muslum. Well, there are some people who feel that if you don't support Israel's right bulldoze people's homes, and the people too if they are stupid enough to stand up for themselves, then you are an anti-semitic millitant Muslim.
You know, the way Bush and Co. call anyone who doesn't agree with him 100% a traitor.
Mr. Robin Parsons
Sep3-03, 12:28 PM
Would like to know exactly how someone got run over by a bulldozer, not like you can't see it coming, not like the operator wouldn't have known that someone was standing there, or that they were crushing them.
I have driven them so I have some idea of the lines of site, anyone know what make, or model, it was?? cause you gotta be "pretty stupid", and/or reckless, to run someone over with one.
Originally posted by Mr. Robin Parsons
Would like to know exactly how someone got run over by a bulldozer, not like you can't see it coming, not like the operator wouldn't have known that someone was standing there, or that they were crushing them.
I have driven them so I have some idea of the lines of site, anyone know what make, or model, it was?? cause you gotta be "pretty stupid", and/or reckless, to run someone over with one. I get teh feeling that the Israelis and Palestinians have something in common; there are some in each group that simply do not value the lives of others. The only difference is, Israelis do value thier own lives pretty highly...probably because they have taken nearly everything that the Palestinians had.
Originally posted by kyleb
and i can't rightly see how she would be "martyred in the Name of Allah" when she was not even a Muslum.
Name: Rachel Corrie. Nationality: A US citizen, peace activist. Place in history: Martyred on March 17, 2003. Where in Rafah refugee camp, occupied Palestine. Why and who murdered her? Zionist Israelis killed her by running over her when she stood before them to prevent them from demolishing a Palestinian refugee home. What will the Bush administration do? Nothing. When it comes to Israeli war crimes, American politicians are blind, deaf, and dump. RACHEL CORRIE SUFFERED LIKE THE PEOPLE SHE LOVED. SHE DIED AMONG THEM. SHE IS ONE OF THEM. SHE IS A PALESTINIAN MARTYR.- Khalil Arafeh, 3/17/03
"facts" turring some like some comment about her dieing while trying to stop pallistine homes from being bulldozed into being a martyr "in Name of Allah" eh? i would hate to see what you consider propaganda.[:D]
as for your question Mr. Robin Parsons, it was a pretty big bulldozer:
http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article1248.shtml
Originally posted by kyleb
"facts" turring some like some comment about her dieing while trying to stop pallistine homes from being bulldozed into being a martyr "in Name of Allah" eh? i would hate to see what you consider propaganda.[:D]
as for your question Mr. Robin Parsons, it was a pretty big bulldozer:
http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article1248.shtml
I'm sorry, exactly what about Rachel being martyred in the Palistinian Martyr parade is not fact in your view? And exactly what about "In the name of Allah" don't you believe is fact when it comes to being martyred? do you think it was in the name of jesus? eh?
Originally posted by kat
Then there are some people who stick to the facts and don't get stuck in their own little indymedia up in the air fantasy's. I'd love to know your sources...still waiting to know where you dug up that 'Palestinain tunnel' reference. Oh, and the arms and drugs thing would be interesting too...I haven't seen Palestinian drug lords on TV driving in shiny Cadillacs.
Originally posted by kat
I'm sorry, exactly what about Rachel being martyred in the Palistinian Martyr parade is not fact in your view? And exactly what about "In the name of Allah" don't you believe is fact when it comes to being martyred? do you think it was in the name of jesus? eh? You imply that her goal was to die for propaganda purposes...
Originally posted by kat
I'm sorry, exactly what about Rachel being martyred in the Palistinian Martyr parade is not fact in your view?
no i'm sorry, i didn't make any such claim.
Originally posted by kat
And exactly what about "In the name of Allah" don't you believe is fact when it comes to being martyred?
yet only religious zealots get martyred in the name of their god and sense the girl was not even a Muslim i hardly see how your claims are founded.
Originally posted by kat
do you think it was in the name of jesus? eh?
no i don't, and i don't understand your line of questioning here either. are you saying that you believe it has to be one or the other?
Mr. Robin Parsons
Sep4-03, 11:12 AM
Originally posted by kyleb
"facts" turring some like some comment about her dieing while trying to stop pallistine homes from being bulldozed into being a martyr "in Name of Allah" eh? i would hate to see what you consider propaganda.[:D]
as for your question Mr. Robin Parsons, it was a pretty big bulldozer:
Thanks! good reference, and clearly, the driver acted willingly/negligently/purposefully/and murderously
Sick individual. (not a nice way to die, compressed, I suspect)
Originally posted by Zero
You imply that her goal was to die for propaganda purposes... UH, no I made no statements about her having any goal to die. I did state she was martyred, which is fact.
One of teh biggest problems I see in Israeli-Palestinian confrontations is that the Israelis can shoot anyone over the age of 14, and label them a 'combatant', and there is no one who checks behind that. I don't know why you think noone checks behind that, B'Tselem, as mentioned by jsccd does attempt to check. Although they are know to be erroneous e.g. listing as dead for months a boy who was living, listing as killed by Israel for months a child who had already been shown to have been shot by palstinians, listing as Palestinian and beaten by Israeli's an Israeli boy who was dragged and beaten by Palestinians. But, overall they do fairly well considering the huge constraints on getting information out of palestine that is not considered subversive and therefor punishable by death..doh.
As for 14 year old boys, I will tell you that every Arab male I know from this area including my husband was given a rifle or weapon at the age of 14, and in fact in my husbands case was given a rifle and the responsibility of revenging his brothers death. So maybe, you're missing something about the traditions.
It's not like it hasn't been reported.
The Palestinian Authority has provided children with military training. The New York Times reports that 25,000 children were trained in the summer 2000 in PA camps in the use of firearms, the making of Molotov cocktails, the methods of kidnapping Israeli leaders, and conducting ambushes. (New York Times - Aug. 3, 2000)
It's known history that in 1982 PLO ordered all boys aged 12 and up who were children of men in the Fatah units served in there fathers company, each child was paid something less then 100 dollares a month.
"At least 40 children from the city of Raphah have lost their arms as a result of the explosions of pipe bombs. They received five Israeli shekels (about one U.S. dollar) for throwing them."(jordanian newspaper, Abu Mazen 2000
I can already see your anti-Islamic bias.
This is ripe coming from you, one of the most rabidly anti-any religious biased person I have yet to see on these forums. At any rate, I didn't respond immediately because I did feel I did have to consider if there was some truth to this, as although Islam is my daughters heritage, mine is cathoic and southern baptist. Although, I don't practice any religion and don't consider myself religious there is always the possiblity that I might make religiously biased derogatory replies. I don't think that's this case here, I will admit that I have a strong anti-ism bias, a strong anti-PLO bias, they are murders, scum and the worst abusers of their own people (Arafat and his ilk). They usurp any moderate voices that might be found in palestine often in the most brutal and final manner, they have no intention of ever helping to find peace, and Arafat will never support a state because it is not IN HIS best interest. Peace would rid any need for him and his ilk, and yes I hate them and him with a passion that only a person who has seen the suffering in people they love as a result of his policies can feel. So if there is any doubt in your mind, who or what I am FOR, I am for getting rid of Arafat and his ilk, Hamas, Hezbollah, etc. etc. etc. because until they are gone and the moderate Palestinian voice can be heard there will be no peace for my people, or for Israeli's.
As for your repeat, repeat that I think "Israel can do no wrong" If for once you made FACTUAL based statements against Israeli you find that I would support your statements against any argument, but YOU don't you spout the same propaganda that allow monsters like Arafat and Rantisi to continue to enslave their own people in a way that Israel has never done. When the IDF has palestinian, Israeli Arabs jews kneeling in the square and beheaded for being a moderate voice or assisting in stopping suicide bombers, or for that matter refusing to participate in the military due to conscience as Israeli's have been frequently known to do...BAH! forget it, you really aren't worth the emotionalism this evokes.
As for tunnels and bulldozers a simple search should give you a wealth of information. I recieved the information I consider reliable from 2 arabs familiar with the area and politics and a member of the IDF.
I don't know why you think noone checks behind that, B'Tselem, as mentioned by jsccd does attempt to check. Although they are know to be erroneous e.g. listing as dead for months a boy who was living, listing as killed by Israel for months a child who had already been shown to have been shot by palstinians, listing as Palestinian and beaten by Israeli's an Israeli boy who was dragged and beaten by Palestinians. But, overall they do fairly well considering the huge constraints on getting information out of palestine that is not considered subversive and therefor punishable by death..doh.
Do you have a cite for any of the garabage that you posted?
1) B'tselem is an Israeli human rights organisation and is the only impartial group that researchs and documents all the deaths documents.
2)'moderates' are not beheaded, if you knew anything about the conflict then you'd know that Fatah have always been the most moderate faction. Collabrators are often lynched or executed though.
3)The fact that you see fit to put Arafat along side the likes of Hamas again shows a fundamental ignorence of the conflict. If you'll remebr Hamas was formed out of an Islamic humanitarian organisation in the eighties and was funded by Israel in an attempt to overthrow Arafat.
I know someone who was out in Rafah when Rachel Corrie died and even saw the bulldozer that killed her (he was attemnding a memorial service at the site where she was killed and the Israel army sensitively sent along the very bulldozer that killed her and drove at the mourners at highspeed before swerving ta the last minute, it appears the driver didn't have any problem seeing that time), the house was later demolished and no tunnels were found.
russ_watters
Sep4-03, 05:10 PM
Originally posted by Zero
You imply that her goal was to die for propaganda purposes... I think you interpreted kat's post. Regardless of whether or not she wanted to, the girl IS considered a martyr.
In any case, though she probably didn't intend to die for propaganda purposes, there are many who do.
Dissident Dan
Sep5-03, 02:35 PM
Originally posted by kat
I'm sorry, exactly what about Rachel being martyred in the Palistinian Martyr parade is not fact in your view? And exactly what about "In the name of Allah" don't you believe is fact when it comes to being martyred? do you think it was in the name of jesus? eh?
"SHE IS A PALESTINIAN MARTYR."
I don't see anything about allah in there. Who says that you have to be a martyr for a deity?
Originally posted by Dissident Dan
"SHE IS A PALESTINIAN MARTYR."
I don't see anything about allah in there. Who says that
you have to be a martyr for a deity?
In that case I must regretably inform you that you
simply do not know what a Palestinian martyr means
and what a palestinian martyr parade means.
This "honor" is reserved to all palestinians and (arabs
in arab countries) that have lost their lives (wheather
as innocent unintentional victims or armed murderous terrorists)
in the fight against Israel or any non-muslims.
The martyr is declared in Arabic - "Shaid" - a martyr that
died in the name of Allah and for Islam fighting the
enemies of Islam = all non-Muslims - according to the most
popular modern interpretation in most Muslim countries.
The parade includs a prayer in the mosque and a very loud
demonstration in the streets as the grave is carried
(including multiple gunshots in the Palestinian case)
during which the masses are further incited by stories of
the wonderful life alongside the prophet Muhammed in the
afterlife which awaits every Shaid and stories about
the wrath of Allah and sword of Islam destroying all the
non-believeres.
Live long and prosper.
russ_watters
Sep6-03, 03:06 PM
Originally posted by Dissident Dan
"SHE IS A PALESTINIAN MARTYR."
I don't see anything about allah in there. Who says that you have to be a martyr for a deity? Just out of curiosity, why does it matter?
why does it matter that her motives are being misrepresented? i suppose it is kinda a respect for truth thing. ;)
russ_watters
Sep7-03, 12:29 AM
Originally posted by kyleb
why does it matter that her motives are being misrepresented? i suppose it is kinda a respect for truth thing. ;) Motives are largely irrelevant when someone is being remembered for actions. Read a few medal of honor citations. You may just shake your head and say 'what the hell were they thinking?' It doesn't matter. Their country decided their actions were heroic.
Similarly, it doesn't matter WHY she was standing in front of that buldozer. The Islamic press decided that makes her a martyr.
so using that logic, and knowing that the church of satan supports the vindictive way in which we have retaliated after 9/11; that would mean all the victims of 9/11 were martyrs for satan eh? i think your logic is out of whack Russ.
russ_watters
Sep7-03, 05:35 PM
Originally posted by kyleb
...the church of satan... ROFLMAO.
Nice to have you back, kyleb.
lol, thanks Russ. but i am serious about my point, i stumbled across the interview a while back.
http://www.satanosphere.com/story/2001/9/13/142152/165
Greetings !
It is intresting to see how easily people call justice
and ligitimate prevention measures as well as libaration
and freedom of other people by names like vengeance.
I wonder what that means about such people...
Could it for example mean that these people do not care
about anybody but themselves ? Could it mean that they
would sit in the comfort of their houses and not even
move a finger to help someone outside since it requires
some small amount of effort and sacrifice ? Does it, perhaps,
mean that such hypocrats only care about their so-called
"ideals" when it concerns them, and not even other people
they might personally know ? The kind of people who wouldn't
help a person in the street who's in trouble and who
would walk away whenever they see a crime or injustice because
it simply doesn't concern them ? Maybe... the kind of people
who seeing terrorist acts and dead bodies on T.V. and watching
the WTC 9/11 footage think it's a Hollywood movie and those
people are actors ? [:((]
Church of Satan ? Yeah... I know this one. It's called
modern Islam - and there is only one way to stop it:
The hard way... [;)] [:))]
Asta la Vista, baby !
Originally posted by drag
Greetings !
It is intresting to see how easily people call justice
and ligitimate prevention measures as well as libaration
and freedom of other people by names like vengeance.
I wonder what that means about such people...
Could it for example mean that these people do not care
about anybody but themselves ? Could it mean that they
would sit in the comfort of their houses and not even
move a finger to help someone outside since it requires
some small amount of effort and sacrifice ? Does it, perhaps,
mean that such hypocrats only care about their so-called
"ideals" when it concerns them, and not even other people
they might personally know ? The kind of people who wouldn't
help a person in the street who's in trouble and who
would walk away whenever they see a crime or injustice because
it simply doesn't concern them ? Maybe... the kind of people
who seeing terrorist acts and dead bodies on T.V. and watching
the WTC 9/11 footage think it's a Hollywood movie and those
people are actors ? [:((]
Church of Satan ? Yeah... I know this one. It's called
modern Islam - and there is only one way to stop it:
The hard way... [;)] [:))]
Asta la Vista, baby ! Warning #2...Islam is exactly as legitimate as any other mythology, and advocating violence towards entire groups, especially religious groups, is a one-way ticket off of PF.
BoulderHead
Sep12-03, 11:05 AM
Originally posted by drag
Greetings !
Church of Satan ? Yeah... I know this one. It's called
modern Islam - and there is only one way to stop it:
The hard way... [;)] [:))]
Asta la Vista, baby !
Please say you’re only kidding, drag!!
There are a lot of peace loving people you are including with that statement. [:(]
The saddest part about this situation is that, the next time someone suggest that the Palestinians engage in non-violent protest, Rachel Corrie will stand as an example of Israel's response to it.
russ_watters
Sep12-03, 11:04 PM
Originally posted by Zero
The saddest part about this situation is that, the next time someone suggest that the Palestinians engage in non-violent protest, Rachel Corrie will stand as an example of Israel's response to it. Next time? In order for there to be a next time there first has to be a first time.
The "Palestinian" people have never once tried to deal with Israel peacefully.
Originally posted by russ_watters
Next time? In order for there to be a next time there first has to be a first time.
Precisely. [;)]
Education:
http://www.yale.edu/yup/chapters/093454chap.htm
http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/go.asp?MFAH0kv40
http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/Peace/patext.html
http://www.israel-wat.com/g7a_eng.htm
http://ksghome.harvard.edu/~.jstern.CSIA.KSG/pakistan.htm
http://www.likud.nl/extr253.html
http://www.freeworldacademy.com/globalleader/newwarcontent.htm
Live long and prosper.
THIS was obviously non-violent protest...easy to miss that point, wasn't it? And it wasn't the first time either.
Originally posted by drag
Precisely. [;)]
Education:
http://www.yale.edu/yup/chapters/093454chap.htm
http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/go.asp?MFAH0kv40
http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/Peace/patext.html
http://www.israel-wat.com/g7a_eng.htm
http://ksghome.harvard.edu/~.jstern.CSIA.KSG/pakistan.htm
http://www.likud.nl/extr253.html
http://www.freeworldacademy.com/globalleader/newwarcontent.htm
Live long and prosper.
Drag you should bother to check whteher your propganda is true or not BEFORE you post it:
http://www.mideastweb.org/paleducation.htm
Originally posted by jcsd
Drag you should bother to check whteher your propganda is true or not BEFORE you post it:
http://www.mideastweb.org/paleducation.htm Why would any of the pro-whatever groups want to deal in truth?[;)] Next thing you know, they'd have to let a little truth in, and they'd learn that the world isn't a good vs evil, black and white comic book. Propaganda is easier.
russ_watters
Sep14-03, 10:20 PM
Originally posted by Zero
THIS was obviously non-violent protest...easy to miss that point, wasn't it? And it wasn't the first time either. She wasn't a muslim and didn't live in the area. I said the "Palestinian People" meaning as a group. A movement to parallel Ghandi's or MLK's.
Zero, I think you'd enjoy reading some Tom Clancy. "The Sum of All Fears" contains that type of scenario and it would change world opinion to be more in favor of the arabs.
Originally posted by russ_watters
She wasn't a muslim and didn't live in the area. I said the "Palestinian People" meaning as a group. A movement to parallel Ghandi's or MLK's.
Zero, I think you'd enjoy reading some Tom Clancy. "The Sum of All Fears" contains that type of scenario and it would change world opinion to be more in favor of the arabs. You mean the one they made the crappy movie of?
BTW, I am all for non-violent resistance...but I'm not sure how many murdered innocents it would take to ruin it. You know I think Israeli response is usually not exactly...surgical.
Originally posted by jcsd
Drag you should bother to check whteher your propganda is true or not BEFORE you post it:
http://www.mideastweb.org/paleducation.htm
That "work" is a clear and transparent, to anyone with
even some small knowledge of the subject (and I assure
you mine is certainly greater than that), lie.
I don't know if you can find it online and if you have
a fast connection, but it would be useful for you to view
reports both recent and dating back just as far as you like
about the contents of education in palestinian schools,
both formal and those organized in large amounts by
terrorist organizations like Hammas. You can also watch the
many interviews with parents and relatives of suicide
bombers when they keep sayin how happy they are that
their son/daughter killed many people and how happy
they'll feel if the rest of their children do the same.
Or the reports where you can see a typuical Hammas
oirganized "school" where small children dance around
singing about Jihad and murder, draw pictures of people
covered with blood and praize the Shahids. These people
are totally nuts.
What's more, you can see practicly the same reports coming
from some parts of countries like Pakistan or Iran.
Live long and prosper.
Originally posted by drag
That "work" is a clear and transparent, to anyone with
even some small knowledge of the subject (and I assure
you mine is certainly greater than that), lie.
I don't know if you can find it online and if you have
a fast connection, but it would be useful for you to view
reports both recent and dating back just as far as you like
about the contents of education in palestinian schools,
both formal and those organized in large amounts by
terrorist organizations like Hammas. You can also watch the
many interviews with parents and relatives of suicide
bombers when they keep sayin how happy they are that
their son/daughter killed many people and how happy
they'll feel if the rest of their children do the same.
Or the reports where you can see a typuical Hammas
oirganized "school" where small children dance around
singing about Jihad and murder, draw pictures of people
covered with blood and praize the Shahids. These people
are totally nuts.
What's more, you can see practicly the same reports coming
from some parts of countries like Pakistan or Iran.
Live long and prosper.
Just dismissing it as a lie without offering any counter-evidence shows that it simply is not. Mideastweb, is one of the most respected sources of information and the author of the cited paper is an academic who works at the US embassy in Israel.
I really don't think you care what the truth is.
russ_watters
Sep17-03, 10:58 AM
jcsd, that report is a little thin in that it focuses on official textbooks. It doesn't say anything about the schools themselves. I know it wasn't part of the study, but you can't know what is going on inside a school if you don't visit it.
Originally posted by russ_watters
jcsd, that report is a little thin in that it focuses on official textbooks. It doesn't say anything about the schools themselves. I know it wasn't part of the study, but you can't know what is going on inside a school if you don't visit it.
I think we'll get closer to the truth by reading both Brown's (http://www.mideastweb.org/paleducation.htm) critical examination and CMIP's (http://www.edume.org/reports/index.htm) reports. Of course, Arafats summer training camps curriculum aren't covered here.
This has gone pretty far from the original topic.
Originally posted by jcsd
Just dismissing it as a lie without offering any counter-evidence shows that it simply is not. Mideastweb, is one of the most respected sources of information and the author of the cited paper is an academic who works at the US embassy in Israel.
I really don't think you care what the truth is.
I know what the truth is because I saw very extensive
TV reports many times showing exactly the same things.
And I've seen the results many times personally.
It is completely ridiculous, again, to claim that that
"report" has any validity what so ever. I've seen a number
of so called reports prepared by other US proffesors and
some academics in other countries containing a lot of
crap on many other subjects as well. It may not be the level
of Palestinian "proffesors" who receive doctorates after
preparing works denying the Holocoust, for example, but
occasionally you can stumble upon pretty weird reports.
As for the TRUTH - if you had bothered even a little you'd
see an official link (2) to an Israeli Government Foreign
Affairs website, I think that's a "slightly" more reliable source.[;)]
Live long and prosper.
Originally posted by drag
I know what the truth is because I saw very extensive
TV reports many times showing exactly the same things.
And I've seen the results many times personally.
It is completely ridiculous, again, to claim that that
"report" has any validity what so ever. I've seen a number
of so called reports prepared by other US proffesors and
some academics in other countries containing a lot of
crap on many other subjects as well. It may not be the level
of Palestinian "proffesors" who receive doctorates after
preparing works denying the Holocoust, for example, but
occasionally you can stumble upon pretty weird reports.
As for the TRUTH - if you had bothered even a little you'd
see an official link (2) to an Israeli Government Foreign
Affairs website, I think that's a "slightly" more reliable source.[;)]
Live long and prosper.
The Israeli MFA's site is full of propagnda, remeber that Nathan Brown's report was prepared to investigate allegations made by CMIP on which the information at the MFA's site is taken from.
'Some TV' program you saw told you differently, well excuse me if I don't take your word for it.
Originally posted by jcsd
The Israeli MFA's site is full of propagnda...
Do you expect me to have any serious discussion with
you about these things after such a response ?
(Not even to mention the fact that the link and some
of the others even contain multiple explicit examples.)
Originally posted by jcsd
...some TV...
No, not "some TV". A very large amount of extensive reports
with clearly visible info and undeniable facts of the
same nature all over again appearing in them.
As for the results, I've had multiple first hand experience.
So don't even try to stick some moron's so called "report"
in my face that ain't worth the HD space it's written on.
Quote: "Similarly, the books do not encourage violence. They do urge students to be willing to make self-sacrifice for the religion or nation..."
Not only is he a moron, apparently he is also a total fool
or at least trusts people with no prior knowledge to become such.
Live long and prosper.
Originally posted by drag
Do you expect me to have any serious discussion with
you about these things after such a response ?
(Not even to mention the fact that the link and some
of the others even contain multiple explicit examples.)
The Israeli MFA site is a fairly standard Israel-advocacy site, alot of it's information is infact drawn from these Israeli advoacy sites.
No, not "some TV". A very large amount of extensive reports
with clearly visible info and undeniable facts of the
same nature all over again appearing in them.
As for the results, I've had multiple first hand experience.
So don't even try to stick some moron's so called "report"
in my face that ain't worth the HD space it's written on.
Again I don't believe you and why should I?
Quote: "Similarly, the books do not encourage violence. They do urge students to be willing to make self-sacrifice for the religion or nation..."
Not only is he a moron, apparently he is also a total fool
or at least trusts people with no prior knowledge to become such.
Live long and prosper.
He's an academic who has worked and lived in Israel again I see no substanital rebuttals and I am detecting some sort of racism in your posts along the lines of "Even though I know nothing about this I am sure all Palestinians are racist". Also try taking a look in Israel and their textbooks as they have been accused of perpetuating negative racial stereotypes of Arabs.
btw the author of the Paper points out that the quotes from Palestinian textbooks which are cited in the articles you posted above are from Egyptian and Jordanian textbooks and that the Palestinian Authority actually removed the offnding passages when it published it's own textbooks.
Originally posted by jcsd
Also try taking a look in Israel and their textbooks as they have been accused of perpetuating negative racial stereotypes of Arabs.
That is wrong.
Originally posted by jcsd
He's an academic who has worked and lived in Israel again I see no substanital rebuttals and I am detecting some sort of racism in your posts along the lines of "Even though I know nothing about this I am sure all Palestinians are racist".
Hmm... you didn't really read my messages, I guess.
Get a hint man...[;)]
Peace and long life.
Some history of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict...
GENERAL:
http://www.un.org/Depts/dpa/ngo/history.html
http://domino.un.org/unispal.nsf/ec8db69f77e7a33e052567270057e591/3b58e8d0adf62b5f852561230077c62d
http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/9a798adbf322aff38525617b006d88d7/025974039acfb171852560de00548bbe
HISTORY:
http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/561c6ee353d740fb8525607d00581829/aeac80e740c782e4852561150071fdb0
http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/561c6ee353d740fb8525607d00581829/d442111e70e417e3802564740045a309
http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/561c6ee353d740fb8525607d00581829/c426c561856178058025647400468f80
http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/561c6ee353d740fb8525607d00581829/40af4c8615bc9837802564740046f767
UN RESOLUTIONS:
http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/9a798adbf322aff38525617b006d88d7/7f0af2bd897689b785256c330061d253
http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/9a798adbf322aff38525617b006d88d7/59210ce6d04aef61852560c3005da209?OpenDocument&Highlight=2,242
http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/9a798adbf322aff38525617b006d88d7/7fb7c26fcbe80a31852560c50065f878?OpenDocument&Highlight=2,338
MAPS:
http://domino.un.org/maps/pal_maps.htm
An article I found on the PNA website. The author is a freelance journalist covering the Israel/Palestine conflict.
Israeli Textbooks and Children's Literature Promote Racism and Hatred Toward Palestinians and Arabs
Date:15/05/2001
Israeli school textbooks as well as children's storybooks, according to recent academic studies and surveys, portray
Palestinians and Arabs as "murderers," "rioters," "suspicious," and generally backward and unproductive. Direct delegitimization and negative stereotyping of Palestinians and Arabs are the rule rather than the exception in Israeli schoolbooks.
Professor Daniel Bar-Tal of Tel Aviv University studied 124 elementary, middle- and high school textbooks on grammar and Hebrew literature, history, geography and citizenship. Bar-Tal concluded that Israeli textbooks present the view that Jews are involved in a justified, even humanitarian, war against an Arab enemy that refuses to accept and acknowledge the existence and rights of Jews in Israel.
"The early textbooks tended to describe acts of Arabs as hostile, deviant, cruel, immoral, unfair, with the intention to hurt Jews and to annihilate the State of Israel. Within this frame of reference, Arabs were delegitimized by the use of such labels as 'robbers,' 'bloodthirsty,' and 'killers,'" said Professor Bar- Tal, adding that there has been little positive revision in the curriculum over the years.
Bar-Tal pointed out that Israeli textbooks continue to present Jews as industrious, brave and determined to cope with the difficulties of "improving the country in ways they believe the Arabs are incapable of."
Hebrew-language geography books from the 1950s through 1970s focused on the glory of Israel's ancient past and how the land was "neglected and destroyed" by the Arabs until the Jews returned from their forced exile and revived it "with the help of the Zionist movement."
"This attitude served to justify the return of the Jews, implying that they care enough about the country to turn the swamps and deserts into blossoming farmland; this effectively delegitimizes the Arab claim to the same land," Bar-Tal told the Washington Report. "The message was that the Palestinians were primitive and neglected the country and did not cultivate the land."
This message, continued Bar-Tal, was further emphasized in textbooks by the use of blatant negative stereotyping which featured Arabs as: "unenlightened, inferior, fatalistic, unproductive and apathetic." Further, according to the textbooks, the Arabs were "tribal, vengeful, exotic, poor, sick, dirty, noisy, colored" and "they burn, murder, destroy, and are easily inflamed."
Textbooks currently being used in the Israeli school system, says Bar-Tal, contain less direct denigration of Arabs but continue to stereotype them negatively when referring to them. He pointed out that Hebrew-as well as Arabic-language textbooks used in elementary and junior high schools contain very few references either to Arabs or to Arab-Jewish relations. The coordinator of a Palestinian NGO in Israel said that major historical events hardly get a mention either.
"When I was in high school 12 years ago, the date '1948' barely appeared in any textbooks except for a mention that there was a conflict, Palestinians refused to accept a U.N. solution and ran away instead," said Jamal Atamneh, coordinator of the Arab Education Committee in Support of Local Councils, a Haifa-based NGO. "Today the idea communicated to schoolchildren is basically the same: there are winners and losers in every conflict. When they teach about 'peace and co-existence,' it is to teach us how to get along with Jews."
Atamneh explained that textbooks used by the nearly one million Arab Israelis (one-fifth of Israel's population) are in Arabic but are written by and issued from the Israeli Ministry of Education, where Palestinians have no influence or input.
"Fewer than 1 percent of the jobs in the Education Ministry, not counting teachers, are held by Palestinians," Atamneh said. "For the past 15 years, not one new Palestinian academic has been placed in a high position in the ministry. There are no Palestinians involved in preparing the Arabic-language curriculum [and] obviously, there is no such thing as affirmative action in Israel."
In addition, there are no Arabic-language universities in Israel. Haifa University, Atamneh points out, has had a steady 20 percent Arab student population for the past 20 years. "How can that figure have remained the same after all these years when the population in the north [of Israel] has grown to over 50 percent Arab?"
Answering his own question, Atamneh rattles off statistics that reflect excellent high school scores among Arab students which he contrasts to their subsequent lower-than-average performance in Hebrew-language college entrance exams given by the state.
"No major scholarships have ever been awarded to an Arab; there are no dorms for Arabs and no college-related jobs or financial aid programs. They justify this legal discrimination by the fact that we do not serve in the army. There are numerous blatant and official methods used to keep Palestinian Arabs out of the universities."
Absence of Palestinian Identity in Schoolbooks
Dr. Eli Podeh, lecturer in the Department of Islamic Studies and Middle East History at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem, says that while certain changes in Israeli textbooks are slowly being implemented, the discussion of Palestinian national and civil identity is never touched upon.
"Passages from 'experts' about the existence of a Palestinian identity were introduced, but in general it appeared that the
textbook authors were not eager to adopt it," said Dr. Podeh, adding that "the connection between Palestinians in Israel and Arabs in Arab countries is not discussed. Especially evident is the lack of a discussion on the orientation of Palestinians to the [occupied] territories.
"While new textbooks attempt to correct some of the earlier distortions, these books as well contain overt and covert fabrications," said Dr. Podeh. "The establishment has preferred-or felt itself forced-to encourage the cover-up and condemn the perplexity."
One Israeli public high school student told the Washington Report that the contents of the schoolbooks and the viewpoints expressed by some teachers indeed have a lasting negative effect on youngsters' attitudes toward Palestinians.
"Our books basically tell us that everything the Jews do is fine and legitimate and Arabs are wrong and violent and are trying to exterminate us," said Daniel Banvolegyi, a 17-year-old high school student in Jerusalem.
"We are accustomed to hearing the same thing, only one side of the story. They teach us that Israel became a state in 1948 and that the Arabs started a war. They don't mention what happened to the Arabs-they never mention anything about refugees or Arabs having to leave their towns and homes," said Banvolegyi.
Banvolegyi, who will be a high school senior this fall, and then will be drafted into the Israeli army next summer, said he argues with his friends about what he regards as racism in the textbooks and on the part of the teachers. He pointed out a worrisome example of how damaging the textbooks and prevailing attitudes can be.
"One kid told me he was angry because of something he read or discussed in school and that he felt like punching the first Arab he saw," said Banvolegyi. "Instead of teaching tolerance and reconciliation, the books and some teachers' attitudes are increasing hatred for Arabs."
Banvolegyi spoke about his schoolmates who, he says, "are dying to go into combat and kill Arabs. I try to talk to them but they say I don't care about this country. But I do care and that's why I tell them peace and justice are the only ways to work things out."
Racist Israeli Upbringing
Considering what the schools have to offer, both Banvolegyi and Atamneh agree that the oral tradition is one of the few ways to get the story straight.
"Unfortunately Israeli children's books are not an option for promoting equality in this society," said Atamneh, citing a book
written by Israeli writer/researcher Adir Cohen called An Ugly Face in the Mirror.
Cohen's book is a study of the nature of children's upbringing in Israel, concentrating on how the historical establishment sees and portrays Arab Palestinians as well as how Jewish Israeli children perceive Palestinians. One section of the book was based on the results of a survey taken of a group of 4th to 6th grade Jewish students at a school in Haifa. The pupils were asked five questions about their attitude toward Arabs, how they recognize them and how they relate to them. The results were as shocking as they were disturbing:
Seventy five percent of the children described the "Arab" as a murderer, one who kidnaps children, a criminal and a terrorist. Eighty percent said they saw the Arab as someone dirty with a terrifying face. Ninety percent of the students stated they believe that Palestinians have no rights whatsoever to the land in Israel or Palestine
Cohen also researched 1,700 Israeli children's books published after 1967. He found that 520 of the books contained humiliating, negative descriptions of Palestinians. He also took pains to break down the descriptions:
Sixty six percent of the 520 books refer to Arabs as violent; 52 percent as evil; 37 percent as liars; 31 percent as greedy; 28 percent as two-faced; 27 percent as traitors, etc.
...
Continuation of article...
...
Cohen points out that the authors of these children's books effectively instill hatred toward Arabs by means of stripping them of their human nature and classifying them in another category. In a sampling of 86 books, Cohen counted the following descriptions used to dehumanize Arabs: Murderer was used 21 times; snake, 6 times; dirty, 9 times; vicious animal, 17 times; bloodthirsty, 21 times; warmonger, 17 times; killer, 13 times; believer in myths, 9 times; and a camel's hump, 2 times.
Cohen's study concludes that such descriptions of Arabs are part and parcel of convictions and a culture rampant in Hebrew literature and history books. He writes that Israeli authors and writers confess to deliberately portraying the Arab character in this way, particularly to their younger audience, in order to influence their outlook early on so as to prepare them to deal with Arabs.
"So you can see that if you grew up reading or studying from these books, you'd never know anything else," said Atamneh.
"But in the case of Palestinians, we grow up 500 meters away from what used to be a town or village and is now a Jewish settlement. Our parents and grandparents tell us all about it; endlessly they talk about it. It's the only way."
Maureen Meehan is a free-lance journalist who covers the West Bank and Jerusalem.
Source of article: http://www.pna.gov.ps/search/TitleDetails.asp?txtDocID=34
And to be fair, here are some articles about education in Palestinian areas:
http://www2.bostonherald.com/attack/world_reaction/ausgaza10092001.htmhttp://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=369325
And no, the author is not Palestinian.
WHat do you expect from a country that was created on racist principles?
russ_watters
Sep19-03, 04:40 PM
Originally posted by Zero
WHat do you expect from a country that was created on racist principles? We've had that discussion before, Zero. Besides you being wrong, I don't consider that statement altogether different from the one drag made about Islam. If it wasn't ok for him it isn't ok for you either.
You don't actually expect to find true info on
the PNA site do you ?! [g)] Did you also read about
the ones with the shooting of children by the IDF
and stuff ? What a bunch of crap...[;)]
That stuff about Israeli textbooks is just a lie,
believe me I read them, there's no such crap there at all.
Live long and prosper.
Originally posted by russ_watters
We've had that discussion before, Zero. Besides you being wrong, I don't consider that statement altogether different from the one drag made about Islam. If it wasn't ok for him it isn't ok for you either. Well, in this case it is true...the citizens are likely fine folks who I would get along with one-on-one. On the other hand, an nation created for Jews is a situation that seems to encourage this sort of behaviour, as much as any fundamentalist Islamic government. Frankly, I'm surprised Israel isn't worse, but that doesn't mean it is ok.
russ_watters
Sep20-03, 01:19 AM
Originally posted by Zero
Well, in this case it is true...the citizens are likely fine folks who I would get along with one-on-one. On the other hand, an nation created for Jews is a situation that seems to encourage this sort of behaviour, as much as any fundamentalist Islamic government. Frankly, I'm surprised Israel isn't worse, but that doesn't mean it is ok. Israel isn't worse because it is NOT a nation created for Jews at the exclusion of others unlike the rest of the countries in the Middle East which DO exist for Muslims at the exclusion of others. Heck, in most countries the different sects of Islam kill and/or oppress each other and cooperate only in what they do to non-believers.
And again, we've had this discussion about Israel being the only democracy in the Middle East before. Just because it was created for Jews does not mean no-one else is allowed to live there or share in the freedom and prosperity. This is the same misunderstnading you have of patriotism. Israel is a real democracy and its the only one in the middle east.
I find this especially ironic since you seem to advocate a creation of a Palestinian state, which by definition would be a theocracy - a government run in accordance with islamic law (which would not make it unique).
Originally posted by russ_watters
Israel isn't worse because it is NOT a nation created for Jews at the exclusion of others unlike the rest of the countries in the Middle East which DO exist for Muslims at the exclusion of others. Heck, in most countries the different sects of Islam kill and/or oppress each other and cooperate only in what they do to non-believers.
And again, we've had this discussion about Israel being the only democracy in the Middle East before. Just because it was created for Jews does not mean no-one else is allowed to live there or share in the freedom and prosperity. This is the same misunderstnading you have of patriotism. Israel is a real democracy and its the only one in the middle east.
I find this especially ironic since you seem to advocate a creation of a Palestinian state, which by definition would be a theocracy - a government run in accordance with islamic law (which would not make it unique). We are gonna have tyo agree to disagree on this...have you read the latest? Palestinians cannot be citizens of Israel by marriage...and, of course, Israel is NOT a democracy.
I think we are pretty far off topic...I'm going to fall back on my standard position, which is that the Israeli/Palestinian is a police action being conducted by military troops, so of course much human rights violations ensue. It is like using a hammer to install screws; it will work, I guess, but it does more damage than it should, and is certainly not the right tool.
Originally posted by Zero
Palestinians cannot be citizens of Israel by marriage...
It was not forbidden there are just more limmitations.
Many phousands of Palestinians - men almost all of them
had been faking marrieges to Israeli arab women to
receive Israeli citizenship. In the entire Muslim world
it is traditional for the woman to move in with her
husband but here there was a completely reversed situation
designed to abuse the law. It is no different from the
limmitations of US immigration laws and the many frauds
they have to deal with when so many people attempt to
abuse the law and receive US citizenship that way. Further more,
here it is more than just a matter of abusing immigration
laws, it is further an issue of security and of political
manipulation by the PNA. There is nothing non-democratic
about it, unless you wish to call every developed "western"
country non-democratic.
Live long and prosper.
Originally posted by drag
It was not forbidden there are just more limmitations.
Many phousands of Palestinians - men almost all of them
had been faking marrieges to Israeli arab women to
receive Israeli citizenship. In the entire Muslim world
it is traditional for the woman to move in with her
husband but here there was a completely reversed situation
designed to abuse the law. It is no different from the
limmitations of US immigration laws and the many frauds
they have to deal with when so many people attempt to
abuse the law and receive US citizenship that way. Further more,
here it is more than just a matter of abusing immigration
laws, it is further an issue of security and of political
manipulation by the PNA. There is nothing non-democratic
about it, unless you wish to call every developed "western"
country non-democratic.
Live long and prosper. Why should there be a limitation? A large number of Palestinians work in Israel, but aren't allowed to be citizens. They have to go back at night before curfew...sounds like South Africa to me.
Originally posted by Zero
Why should there be a limitation? Gee whiz..I'm stumped..I just can't figure this one out..
Originally posted by kat
Gee whiz..I'm stumped..I just can't figure this one out.. This is an invitation for insult, isn't it? I'm not going to bite.
Originally posted by Zero
This is an invitation for insult, isn't it? I'm not going to bite.
It was, in fact, an invitation to think as opposed to serving up yet another platter of rhetoric. I suppose, at this point, that there is no use in holding any manner of dialogue with you on the subject whatsoever..so, recognizing that you cannot/will not recognize that perhaps for Israel the "justice" you keeping crying for is by dire necessity a secondary concept that takes a back seat to halting the actions which are perceived as a threat to their very existence, I will instead resort to infrequent sarcasm and hope for the best.
Originally posted by kat
It was, in fact, an invitation to think as opposed to serving up yet another platter of rhetoric. I suppose, at this point, that there is no use in holding any manner of dialogue with you on the subject whatsoever..so, recognizing that you cannot/will not recognize that perhaps for Israel the "justice" you keeping crying for is by dire necessity a secondary concept that takes a back seat to halting the actions which are perceived as a threat to their very existence, I will instead resort to infrequent sarcasm and hope for the best. How about if I just delete further sarcastic posts? I'm sick of you pretending that Israel holds some moral high ground.
russ_watters
Sep21-03, 12:20 AM
Originally posted by Zero
How about if I just delete further sarcastic posts? I'm sick of you pretending that Israel holds some moral high ground. Israel's moral high ground is clear enough.
Originally posted by russ_watters
Israel's moral high ground is clear enough. That's because it is low enough that most other countries can look down on it.
Originally posted by Zero
That's because it is low enough that most other countries can look down on it.
Interesting, I'm fighting the sarcasm..I really am![8)]
But seriously, I think I'm going to use this as a starter for a new thread. I think it would be an interesting subject to delve into.
vBulletin® v3.8.7, Copyright ©2000-2012, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.