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View Full Version : Matrix notation (was Re: The Hodge dual...)


Igor Khavkine
Nov28-04, 06:02 AM
<jabberwocky><div class="vbmenu_control"><a href="jabberwocky:;" onClick="newWindow=window.open('','usenetCode','toolbar=no, location=no,scrollbars=yes,resizable=yes,status=no ,width=650,height=400'); newWindow.document.write('<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Usenet ASCII</TITLE></HEAD><BODY topmargin=0 leftmargin=0 BGCOLOR=#F1F1F1><table border=0 width=625><td bgcolor=midnightblue><font color=#F1F1F1>This Usenet message\'s original ASCII form: </font></td></tr><tr><td width=449><br><br><font face=courier><UL><PRE>On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 07:46:37 +0000, Blake Winter wrote:\n\n&gt; Yes, I feel the same way about the horrors of matrix notation, what with\n&gt; the row vectors and column vectors hiding what\'s actually going on...\n\nI think matrix notation is not as bad as some people make it seem. Being\nfamiliar with matrices provides a great step towards either index or\nindex-free tensor notation. One just has to realize that there is a hidden\nstructure when things are written in row and column notation.\n\nI don\'t think anyone would disagree that column vectors form a good honest\nvector space, just as well as row vectors do. The key observation is that,\nonce things are written in this form, we have access to two things: matrix\nmultiplication and transposition. With matrix multiplication we can\nnaturally pair row and column vectors to give real numbers:\n\n[b_1]\n[b_2]\n[a_1 a_2 a_3 ... a_n] [b_3] = a_1 b_1 + a_2 b_2 + ... + a_n b_n .\n[...]\n[b_n]\n\nThis pairing clearly makes the space of row vectors dual to that of the\ncolumn vectors. Immediately we have a direct, almost pictorial,\nillustration of a concept that\'s a little hard to grasp when starting\nout in abstract linear algebra.\n\nThis even makes sense when we consider the definitions of matrices and\ntheir multiplication whith which we were brought up. An n x m matrix is\na linear map from the space of m-component column vectors to the space\nof n-component column vectors. And matrix multiplication is just\ncomposition of these maps. By that logic, row vectors (1 x n matrices)\nare maps from n-component column vectors to real numbers (1-component\nvectors), and that\'s exactly the definition of a dual space!\n\nTransposition provides an identification between column vectors and\nrow vectors:\n\nT\n[a_1] T [a_1]\n[a_2] = [a_1 a_2 ... a_n] , [a_1 a_2 ... a_n] = [a_2] .\n[...] [...]\n[a_n] [a_n]\n\nBut, since row vectors are the duals of column vectors, what we have is\na canonoical identification between vectors and their duals that is\nnon-degenerate (invertible) and positive definite (a^T a &gt; 0 for every\nnon-zero a). In other words we have a metric on our hands! Since we have\na metric, any 2-form can be associated with an operator (a matrix) just\nby raising an index: g(a,b) = a^T g b, where a and b are row vectors and\nnow the g in between is the matrix corresponding to the 2-form g(.,.).\nIn particular the metric itself can be written\n\n[1 0 ... 0] [b_1]\n[0 1 ... 0] [b_2]\n&lt;a,b&gt; = a^T b = [a_1 a_2 ... a_n] [ ... ] [...] ,\n[0 0 ... 1] [b_n]\n\nit is represented by the identity matrix.\n\nSome basic theorems of abstract (finite dimensional) linear algebra\nbecome trivial when written in terms of matrices. For instance, a vector\nspace V is isomorphic to its dual V^*. Well of course, just take the\ntranspose! A vector space V is _canonically_ isomorphic to its double\ndual V^**. Well, of course, just take the transpose twice and you end up\nwhere you started!\n\nThere is also a nice duality between column and row notation. We were\ntaught as toddlers to vectors are written as columns and that linear\noperators are applied to them by matrix multiplication on the left.\nHowever, there is nothing wrong with doing things backwards, writing\nvectors as rows and applying linear operators to them by matrix\nmultiplication on the right. There is even a deeper (somewhat hidden)\nmeaning to this duality. It\'s called the adjoint!\n\nDenoting by &lt;a,b&gt; the pairing between a vector b and a dual vector a, we\ncall A the adjoint of B if &lt;Aa,b&gt; = &lt;a,Bb&gt; for all a and b. Notice that\nwhile B is a map from V to W (with b in V), the adjoint A will be a map\nfrom the dual W^* to the dual V^* (with a in W^*). In matrix notation\nthis becomes trivial. If a is a row vector with n components, b is a\ncolumn vector with m components, and B is an n x m matrix, to find A the\nadjoint of B all we have to do is move some parentheses around:\n\na (B b) = (a B) b = (a A) b, for all a and b,\n\nwhich implies that A = B! In other words the matrix for an operator B\nand its adjoint A are exactly the same. Except that B is treated as\nacting on the left on column vectors, wile A is treated as acting on row\nvectors but on the right. If you don\'t like this writing things\nbackward, everything can be put right using the transpose:\n\na (B b) = (a B) b = (B^T a^T)^T b.\n\nIn other words, if B is an n x m matrix, its transpose B^T is an m x n\nmatrix which is the adjoint of B that acts by left multiplication on\nn-component column vectors which are actually transposes of n-component\nrow vectors. Phew! that was a mouthful.\n\nThe only danger here is forgetting that the meaning of the transpose is\nnot invariant under change of basis. One has to remember that a change\nof basis changes the matrix elements of the metric, so it is no longer\nrepresented by the identity matrix in the new basis. Also, abstract\nnotation for linear algebra sheds new light on classic theorems of\nmatrix algebra. For example, using the relation between the transpose\nand the metric, we can easily show that the orthogonal complement of the\ncolumn space of a matrix is the null space of its transpose. (Exercise:\nprove it!)\n\nAnother disadvantage of matrix notation is its two-dimensionality. In\nother words, it is hard to work with tensors of rank higher than two.\nAny second rank tensor can be written as a matrix with the appropriate\nindices raised or lowered by the implied metric. However, there is no\nconvenient notation for tensors of higher rank.\n\nWorking with higher order tensor products is where diagramatic notation\nfor linear algebra (with which some patrons of this group are enamoured)\nreally shines. It is interesting that the area where matrix notation\nshines equally brightly is working with direct sums of vector spaces.\n\nNamely, if n = n1 + n2 + ... + nm, then the vector space R^n can be\nwritten as a direct sum R^n = R^n1 (+) R^n2 (+) ... (+) R^nm. The\nelements of R^n are just column vectors in n components and the fact\nthat they come from the above direct sum is illustrated by writing the\nn-component column as a stack of shorter columns of n1, n2, ..., nm\ncomponents:\n\n[a^1_1 ]\n[ ... ]\n[a^1_n1]\n------\n[a^2_1 ]\n[ ... ]\n[a^1_n2] .\n------\n...\n------\n[a^m_nm]\n[ ... ]\n[a^m_nm]\n\nThis representation of a direct sum gives a very hands on picture of\nwhat is in essence a very abstract concept. The abstract (category\ntheoretial) definition of the direct sum is illustrated by the following\ncommutative diagram\n\ni_A i_B\nA ---------&gt; A(+)B &lt;--------- B\n| | |\n| | |\n| f_A | f f_B |\n\\ | /\n\\ | /\n\\ V /\n+--------&gt; C &lt;--------+\n\nThis diagram says that given two vector spaces A and B, their direct sum\nis a vector space A(+)B equipped with embeddings i_A:A-&gt;A(+)B and\ni_B:A-&gt;A(+)B such that linear maps f_A:A-&gt;C and f_B:B-&gt;C into any space C\ndefine a unique linear map f:A(+)B-&gt;C which commutes with the\nembeddings. This definition is indeed quite abstract and at first hard\nto wrap ones brain around, but ane example with matrices clears\neverything up.\n\nNamely, if A = R^n and B = R^m, with f_A and f_B being k x n and k x m\nmatrices respectively (i.e. they map A and B into C=R^k). Then the\ndesired linear map f from R^(n+m) = A(+)B into C is defined by writing\nits matrix in block form:\n\n[a_1] \\\n[...] &lt;- n components |\n[ | ] [a_n] |\nf = [ f_A | f_B ] acting on --- &gt; n+m components\n[ | ] [b_1] |\n^ ^ [...] &lt;- m components |\n| | [b_m] /\nk x n k x m\n\\----- -----/\nV\nk x (n+m)\n\nThe embeddings of R^n and R^m into R^(n+m) are quite obviously defined\nand existence and uniqueness of f given f_A and f_B is clear and\nindisputable.\n\nThis illustration of category theoretical concepts can be pushed even\nfurther. The category theoretical definition of the direct sum is in\nfact the coproduct in the category of linear spaces. But, by a happy\ncoincidence, if we look at vector spaces as simple sets instead of\nlinear spaces, the direct sum in in fact the (cartesian) product of two\nspaces in this category (the coproduct in the category of sets is the\ndisjoint union, while the product in the category of linear spaces is\nthe tensor product). Perhaps the happy coincidence is a contravariant\nfunctor that\'s lurking in the background somewhere.\n\nLets look at the category theoretical definition of the product A x B of\ntwo spaces A and B (just reverse all the arrows from the definition of a\ncoproduct):\n\np_A p_B\nA &lt;--------- A x B ---------&gt; B\n^ ^ ^\n| | |\n| f_A | f f_B |\n\\ | /\n\\ | /\n\\ | /\n+--------- C ---------+\n\nThis commutative diagram tells us that the cartesian product of two\nsets A and B is another set A x B together with projections p_A:AxB-&gt;A\nand p_B:AxB-&gt;B (think (a,b) goes to a or b respectively) such that given\nany function functions f_A:C-&gt;A and f_B:C-&gt;B there is a unique function\nf:C-&gt;AxB which commutes with the projections [think f(c)=(f_A(c),f_B(c))].\n\nOnce again, this construction can be illustrated by writing matrix\nassociated with f in block form. Namely, as before, let C=R^k, A=R^n,\nB=R^m, and AxB=R^(n+m). Consequently, if f_A and f_B are respectively\nn x k and m x k matrices, we can write the matrix for the linear map f\nas\n\nn x k\n|\nV\n[a_1] [ ]\n[...] [ f_A ]\n[a_n] [ ] [c_1]\n--- = f c = ----- [...] &lt;-- k components\n[b_1] [ ] [c_k]\n[...] [ f_B ]\n[b_m] [ ]\n^\n|\nm x k\n\nOnce again, projections the projections are naturally defined, and the\nexistence and uniquness of f is also beyond dispute.\n\nWhat is really neat is that we can combine these two pieces of notation\nand write a linear map between two direct sums A(+)B and C(+)D in block\nform as well. Namely a map f:A(+)B-&gt;C(+)D can be represented as\n\nk x n k x m\n[c_1] [ | ] [a_1]\n[...] [ f_AC | f_BC ] [...]\n[c_k] [ | ] [a_n]\n--- = ------ ------ ---\n[d_1] [ | ] [b_1]\n[...] [ f_AD | f_BD ] [...]\n[d_l] [ | ] [b_m]\nl x n l x m\n\nTo me this seems like a perfect union between the practical and the\nabstract. This category theory provides the deep reason why working with\nmatrices in block form always works (which can appear a little\nmysterious when first encountered) while, at the same time, block\ndecomposition of matrices provides a very hands on example of some\nabstract constructions in linear algebra or category theory.\n\nI wonder if there are similar tricks that can be played with the tensor\nproduct of vector spaces. Can the tensor product be represented as a\ncoproduct in another category? If so, is there an analogous "block\ndecomposition" of maps between tensor products of spaces in diagramatic\nnotation?\n\nI wish there was a way to combine column-row notation with diagramatic\nnotation could somehow be combined so that the respective ease of working\nwith direct sums and tensor products could be harnessed at the same\ntime.\n\nIf you got this far, I hope you enjoyed reading this post as much as I\nenjoyed writing it. :-)\n\nIgor\n\n</UL></PRE></font></td></tr></table></BODY><HTML>');"> <IMG SRC=/images/buttons/ip.gif BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER ALT="View this Usenet post in original ASCII form">&nbsp;&nbsp;View this Usenet post in original ASCII form </a></div><P></jabberwocky>On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 07:46:37 +0000, Blake Winter wrote:

> Yes, I feel the same way about the horrors of matrix notation, what with
> the row vectors and column vectors hiding what's actually going on...

I think matrix notation is not as bad as some people make it seem. Being
familiar with matrices provides a great step towards either index or
index-free tensor notation. One just has to realize that there is a hidden
structure when things are written in row and column notation.

I don't think anyone would disagree that column vectors form a good honest
vector space, just as well as row vectors do. The key observation is that,
once things are written in this form, we have access to two things: matrix
multiplication and transposition. With matrix multiplication we can
naturally pair row and column vectors to give real numbers:

[b_1][b_2][a_1 a_2 a_3 .[/itex].. a_n] [b_3] = a_1 b_1 + a_2 b_2 + ... + a_n b_n .
[...]
[b_n]

This pairing clearly makes the space of row vectors dual to that of the
column vectors. Immediately we have a direct, almost pictorial,
illustration of a concept that's a little hard to grasp when starting
out in abstract linear algebra.

This even makes sense when we consider the definitions of matrices and
their multiplication whith which we were brought up. An n x m matrix is
a linear map from the space of m-component column vectors to the space
of n-component column vectors. And matrix multiplication is just
composition of these maps. By that logic, row vectors (1 x n matrices)
are maps from n-component column vectors to real numbers (1-component
vectors), and that's exactly the definition of a dual space!

Transposition provides an identification between column vectors and
row vectors:

T
[a_1] T [a_1][a_2] = [a_1 a_2 ... a_n] , [a_1 a_2 ... a_n] = [a_2] .
[...] [...]
[a_n] [a_n]

But, since row vectors are the duals of column vectors, what we have is
a canonoical identification between vectors and their duals that is
non-degenerate (invertible) and positive definite (a^T a > for every
non-zero a). In other words we have a metric on our hands! Since we have
a metric, any 2-form can be associated with an operator (a matrix) just
by raising an index: g(a,b) = a^T g b, where a and b are row vectors and
now the g in between is the matrix corresponding to the 2-form g(.,.).
In particular the metric itself can be written

[1 ... 0] [b_1][0 1 ... 0] [b_2]
<a,b> = a^T b = [a_1 a_2 ... a_n] [ ... ] [...] ,
[0 ... 1] [b_n]

it is represented by the identity matrix.

Some basic theorems of abstract (finite dimensional) linear algebra
become trivial when written in terms of matrices. For instance, a vector
space V is isomorphic to its dual V^*. Well of course, just take the
transpose! A vector space V is _canonically_ isomorphic to its double
dual V^**. Well, of course, just take the transpose twice and you end up
where you started!

There is also a nice duality between column and row notation. We were
taught as toddlers to vectors are written as columns and that linear
operators are applied to them by matrix multiplication on the left.
However, there is nothing wrong with doing things backwards, writing
vectors as rows and applying linear operators to them by matrix
multiplication on the right. There is even a deeper (somewhat hidden)
meaning to this duality. It's called the adjoint!

Denoting by <a,b> the pairing between a vector b and a dual vector a, we
call A the adjoint of B if <Aa,b> = <a,Bb> for all a and b. Notice that
while B is a map from V to W (with b in V), the adjoint A will be a map
from the dual W^* to the dual V^* (with a in W^*). In matrix notation
this becomes trivial. If a is a row vector with n components, b is a
column vector with m components, and B is an n x m matrix, to find A the
adjoint of B all we have to do is move some parentheses around:

a (B b) = (a B) b = (a A) b, for all a and b,

which implies that A = B! In other words the matrix for an operator B
and its adjoint A are exactly the same. Except that B is treated as
acting on the left on column vectors, wile A is treated as acting on row
vectors but on the right. If you don't like this writing things
backward, everything can be put right using the transpose:

a (B b) = (a B) b = (B^T a^T)^T b.

In other words, if B is an n x m matrix, its transpose B^T is an m x n
matrix which is the adjoint of B that acts by left multiplication on
n-component column vectors which are actually transposes of n-component
row vectors. Phew! that was a mouthful.

The only danger here is forgetting that the meaning of the transpose is
not invariant under change of basis. One has to remember that a change
of basis changes the matrix elements of the metric, so it is no longer
represented by the identity matrix in the new basis. Also, abstract
notation for linear algebra sheds new light on classic theorems of
matrix algebra. For example, using the relation between the transpose
and the metric, we can easily show that the orthogonal complement of the
column space of a matrix is the null space of its transpose. (Exercise:
prove it!)

Another disadvantage of matrix notation is its two-dimensionality. In
other words, it is hard to work with tensors of rank higher than two.
Any second rank tensor can be written as a matrix with the appropriate
indices raised or lowered by the implied metric. However, there is no
convenient notation for tensors of higher rank.

Working with higher order tensor products is where diagramatic notation
for linear algebra (with which some patrons of this group are enamoured)
really shines. It is interesting that the area where matrix notation
shines equally brightly is working with direct sums of vector spaces.

Namely, if n = n1 + n2 + ... + nm, then the vector space R^n can be
written as a direct sum R^n = R^{n1} (+) R^{n2} (+) ... (+) R^{nm}. The
elements of R^n are just column vectors in n components and the fact
that they come from the above direct sum is illustrated by writing the
n-component column as a stack of shorter columns of n1, n2, ..., nm
components:

[a^{1_1} ]
[ ... ][a^{1_}{n1}]
------
[a^{2_1} ]
[ ... ][a^{1_}{n2}] .
------
...
------
[a^{m_}{nm}]
[ ... ][a^{m_}{nm}]

This representation of a direct sum gives a very hands on picture of
what is in essence a very abstract concept. The abstract (category
theoretial) definition of the direct sum is illustrated by the following
commutative diagram

i_A i_B
A ---------> A(+)B <--------- B
| | || | || f_A | f f_B |\ | /\ | /
\ V /
+--------> C <--------+

This diagram says that given two vector spaces A and B, their direct sum
is a vector space A(+)B equipped with embeddings i_A:A->A(+)B and
i_B:A->A(+)B such that linear maps f_A:A->C and f_B:B->C into any space C
define a unique linear map f:A(+)B->C which commutes with the
embeddings. This definition is indeed quite abstract and at first hard
to wrap ones brain around, but ane example with matrices clears
everything up.

Namely, if A = R^n and B = R^m, with f_A and f_B being k x n and k x m
matrices respectively (i.e. they map A and B into C=R^k). Then the
desired linear map f from R^(n+m) = A(+)B into C is defined by writing
its matrix in block form:

[a_1] \
[...] <- n components |
[ | ] [a_n] |f = [ f_A | f_B ] acting on --- > n+m components
[ | ] [b_1] |^ ^ [...] <- m components |
| | [b_m] /k x n k x m
\----- -----/
V
k x (n+m)

The embeddings of R^n and R^m into R^(n+m) are quite obviously defined
and existence and uniqueness of f given f_A and f_B is clear and
indisputable.

This illustration of category theoretical concepts can be pushed even
further. The category theoretical definition of the direct sum is in
fact the coproduct in the category of linear spaces. But, by a happy
coincidence, if we look at vector spaces as simple sets instead of
linear spaces, the direct sum in in fact the (cartesian) product of two
spaces in this category (the coproduct in the category of sets is the
disjoint union, while the product in the category of linear spaces is
the tensor product). Perhaps the happy coincidence is a contravariant
functor that's lurking in the background somewhere.

Lets look at the category theoretical definition of the product A x B of
two spaces A and B (just reverse all the arrows from the definition of a
coproduct):

p_A p_B
A <--------- A x B ---------> B
^ ^ ^| | || f_A | f f_B |\ | /\ | /\ | /
+--------- C ---------+

This commutative diagram tells us that the cartesian product of two
sets A and B is another set A x B together with projections p_A:AxB->A
and p_B:AxB->B (think (a,b) goes to a or b respectively) such that given
any function functions f_A:C->A and f_B:C->B there is a unique function
f:C->AxB which commutes with the projections [think f(c)=(f_A(c),f_B(c))].

Once again, this construction can be illustrated by writing matrix
associated with f in block form. Namely, as before, let C=R^k, A=R^n,B=R^m, and AxB=R^(n+m). Consequently, if f_A and f_B are respectively
n x k and m x k matrices, we can write the matrix for the linear map f
as

n x k
|
V
[a_1] [ ]
[...] [ f_A ][a_n] [ ] [c_1]
--- = f c = ----- [...] <-- k components
[b_1] [ ] [c_k]
[...] [ f_B ][b_m] [ ]
^
|
[itex]m x k

Once again, projections the projections are naturally defined, and the
existence and uniquness of f is also beyond dispute.

What is really neat is that we can combine these two pieces of notation
and write a linear map between two direct sums A(+)B and C(+)D in block
form as well. Namely a map f:A(+)B->C(+)D can be represented as

k x n k x m
[c_1] [ | ] [a_1]
[...] [ f_{AC} | f_{BC} ] [...]
[c_k] [ | ] [a_n]
--- = ------ ------ ---
[d_1] [ | ] [b_1]
[...] [ f_{AD} | f_{BD} ] [...]
[d_l] [ | ] [b_m]l x n l x m

To me this seems like a perfect union between the practical and the
abstract. This category theory provides the deep reason why working with
matrices in block form always works (which can appear a little
mysterious when first encountered) while, at the same time, block
decomposition of matrices provides a very hands on example of some
abstract constructions in linear algebra or category theory.

I wonder if there are similar tricks that can be played with the tensor
product of vector spaces. Can the tensor product be represented as a
coproduct in another category? If so, is there an analogous "block
decomposition" of maps between tensor products of spaces in diagramatic
notation?

I wish there was a way to combine column-row notation with diagramatic
notation could somehow be combined so that the respective ease of working
with direct sums and tensor products could be harnessed at the same
time.

If you got this far, I hope you enjoyed reading this post as much as I
enjoyed writing it. :-)

Igor

Oz
Nov29-04, 02:52 AM
<jabberwocky><div class="vbmenu_control"><a href="jabberwocky:;" onClick="newWindow=window.open('','usenetCode','toolbar=no, location=no,scrollbars=yes,resizable=yes,status=no ,width=650,height=400'); newWindow.document.write('<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Usenet ASCII</TITLE></HEAD><BODY topmargin=0 leftmargin=0 BGCOLOR=#F1F1F1><table border=0 width=625><td bgcolor=midnightblue><font color=#F1F1F1>This Usenet message\'s original ASCII form: </font></td></tr><tr><td width=449><br><br><font face=courier><UL><PRE>Igor Khavkine &lt;k_igor_k@lycos.com&gt; writes\n&gt;\n&gt;I think matrix notation is not as bad as some people make it seem. Being\n&gt;familiar with matrices provides a great step towards either index or\n&gt;index-free tensor notation. One just has to realize that there is a hidden\n&gt;structure when things are written in row and column notation.\n\n&lt;snip&gt;\n\nWOW! That puts the whole thing neatly and very clearly.\n\nThat would do most admirably for a handout during a lecture.\n[OK the category stuff could be left till later.]\n\n&gt;The only danger here is forgetting that the meaning of the transpose is\n&gt;not invariant under change of basis. One has to remember that a change\n&gt;of basis changes the matrix elements of the metric, so it is no longer\n&gt;represented by the identity matrix in the new basis.\n\nTo save me having to think too hard, am I to infer that there is some\npreferred basis (which seems unlikely) or we have an infinity of bases\nwhere that is true up to a constant (4D, not 3-1D)? I would expect\nrotation and translation of a rectangular basis to give (after some\nmanipulation) an identity matrix back again. If one had, say, a polar\nbasis, then that would be a different thing.\n\nFor (3-1)D it surely gets more involved. Over the years of trying to get\nsome knowledge here by a hugely inefficient process of osmosis I have\ntended to see objects as having a locally preferred frame (its rest\nframe). In this frame I can intuitively understand processes since I\nhave lived in one for many years. I then simply do a lorentz\ntransformation if I want to see these processes happening in another\nframe.\n\nHmmmm. Writing that out has just crystallised a thought that has been\nnagging at the back of my mind for a long time. That\'s what physics\ndoes, isn\'t it? In essence we describe physics by putting everything\ninto a single frame and assigning names and physics for the off-frame\ncomponents. So:\n\nRest frame \'Physics\' in another frame.\nsees\n\nFrame rotation Velocity\nElectric force Magnetic force\nBent frame Gravity\nEnergy Momentum\nMomentum Energy\netc\n\n&gt;Another disadvantage of matrix notation is its two-dimensionality. In\n&gt;other words, it is hard to work with tensors of rank higher than two.\n&gt;Any second rank tensor can be written as a matrix with the appropriate\n&gt;indices raised or lowered by the implied metric. However, there is no\n&gt;convenient notation for tensors of higher rank.\n\nYes, this is a bit of a blow.\nCan we not go (not that I am suggesting it) to multi-dimensional\nmatrices?\n\n&gt;Working with higher order tensor products is where diagramatic notation\n&gt;for linear algebra (with which some patrons of this group are enamoured)\n&gt;really shines.\n\n&gt;This representation of a direct sum gives a very hands on picture of\n&gt;what is in essence a very abstract concept. The abstract (category\n&gt;theoretial) definition of the direct sum is illustrated by the following\n&gt;commutative diagram\n&gt;\n&gt; i_A i_B\n&gt; A ---------&gt; A(+)B &lt;--------- B\n&gt; | | |\n&gt; | | |\n&gt; | f_A | f f_B |\n&gt; \\ | /\n&gt; \\ | /\n&gt; \\ V /\n&gt; +--------&gt; C &lt;--------+\n&gt;\n&gt;This diagram says that given two vector spaces A and B, their direct sum\n&gt;is a vector space A(+)B equipped with embeddings i_A:A-&gt;A(+)B and\n&gt;i_B:A-&gt;A(+)B such that linear maps f_A:A-&gt;C and f_B:B-&gt;C into any space C\n&gt;define a unique linear map f:A(+)B-&gt;C which commutes with the\n&gt;embeddings. This definition is indeed quite abstract and at first hard\n&gt;to wrap ones brain around, but ane example with matrices clears\n&gt;everything up.\n\nGreat stuff. If a complete moron and crank like me dimly sees\ncorrelations between different structures like this then I\'m sure\neveryone does. The smart thing, though, is to properly itemise and\ndefine them into a logical structure. Its not hard to see why\nmathematicians are drawn towards this methodology. In a sense its\nextending the idea of isomorphism to a (much, much) wider area.\n\n&gt;I wonder if there are similar tricks that can be played with the tensor\n&gt;product of vector spaces. Can the tensor product be represented as a\n&gt;coproduct in another category? If so, is there an analogous "block\n&gt;decomposition" of maps between tensor products of spaces in diagramatic\n&gt;notation?\n\nAhhh! Tucked at the end is your *real* question, if not a request!\n\n&gt;If you got this far, I hope you enjoyed reading this post as much as I\n&gt;enjoyed writing it. :-)\n\nYup!\n\n--\nOz\nThis post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious.\n\nUse oz@farmeroz.port995.com [ozacoohdb@despammed.com functions].\nBTOPENWORLD address has ceased. DEMON address has ceased.\n\n</UL></PRE></font></td></tr></table></BODY><HTML>');"> <IMG SRC=/images/buttons/ip.gif BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER ALT="View this Usenet post in original ASCII form">&nbsp;&nbsp;View this Usenet post in original ASCII form </a></div><P></jabberwocky>Igor Khavkine <k_{igor_k}@lycos.com> writes
>
>I think matrix notation is not as bad as some people make it seem. Being
>familiar with matrices provides a great step towards either index or
>index-free tensor notation. One just has to realize that there is a hidden
>structure when things are written in row and column notation.

<snip>

WOW! That puts the whole thing neatly and very clearly.

That would do most admirably for a handout during a lecture.
[OK the category stuff could be left till later.]

>The only danger here is forgetting that the meaning of the transpose is
>not invariant under change of basis. One has to remember that a change
>of basis changes the matrix elements of the metric, so it is no longer
>represented by the identity matrix in the new basis.

To save me having to think too hard, am I to infer that there is some
preferred basis (which seems unlikely) or we have an infinity of bases
where that is true up to a constant (4D, not 3-1D)? I would expect
rotation and translation of a rectangular basis to give (after some
manipulation) an identity matrix back again. If one had, say, a polar
basis, then that would be a different thing.

For (3-1)D it surely gets more involved. Over the years of trying to get
some knowledge here by a hugely inefficient process of osmosis I have
tended to see objects as having a locally preferred frame (its rest
frame). In this frame I can intuitively understand processes since I
have lived in one for many years. I then simply do a lorentz
transformation if I want to see these processes happening in another
frame.

Hmmmm. Writing that out has just crystallised a thought that has been
nagging at the back of my mind for a long time. That's what physics
does, isn't it? In essence we describe physics by putting everything
into a single frame and assigning names and physics for the off-frame
components. So:

Rest frame 'Physics' in another frame.
sees

Frame rotation Velocity
Electric force Magnetic force
Bent frame Gravity
Energy Momentum
Momentum Energy
etc

>Another disadvantage of matrix notation is its two-dimensionality. In
>other words, it is hard to work with tensors of rank higher than two.
>Any second rank tensor can be written as a matrix with the appropriate
>indices raised or lowered by the implied metric. However, there is no
>convenient notation for tensors of higher rank.

Yes, this is a bit of a blow.
Can we not go (not that I am suggesting it) to multi-dimensional
matrices?

>Working with higher order tensor products is where diagramatic notation
>for linear algebra (with which some patrons of this group are enamoured)
>really shines.

>This representation of a direct sum gives a very hands on picture of
>what is in essence a very abstract concept. The abstract (category
>theoretial) definition of the direct sum is illustrated by the following
>commutative diagram
>
> i_A i_B
> A ---------> A(+)B <--------- B
> | | |
> | | |
> | f_A | f f_B |
> \ | /
> \ | /
> \ V /
> +--------> C <--------+
>
>This diagram says that given two vector spaces A and B, their direct sum
>is a vector space A(+)B equipped with embeddings i_A:A->A(+)B and
>i_B:A->A(+)B such that linear maps f_A:A->C and f_B:B->C into any space C
>define a unique linear map f:A(+)B->C which commutes with the
>embeddings. This definition is indeed quite abstract and at first hard
>to wrap ones brain around, but ane example with matrices clears
>everything up.

Great stuff. If a complete moron and crank like me dimly sees
correlations between different structures like this then I'm sure
everyone does. The smart thing, though, is to properly itemise and
define them into a logical structure. Its not hard to see why
mathematicians are drawn towards this methodology. In a sense its
extending the idea of isomorphism to a (much, much) wider area.

>I wonder if there are similar tricks that can be played with the tensor
>product of vector spaces. Can the tensor product be represented as a
>coproduct in another category? If so, is there an analogous "block
>decomposition" of maps between tensor products of spaces in diagramatic
>notation?

Ahhh! Tucked at the end is your *real* question, if not a request!

>If you got this far, I hope you enjoyed reading this post as much as I
>enjoyed writing it. :-)

Yup!

--
Oz
This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious.

Use oz@farmeroz.port995.com [ozacoohdb@despammed.com functions].
BTOPENWORLD address has ceased. DEMON address has ceased.

grubb@math.niu.edu
Nov30-04, 12:47 PM
<jabberwocky><div class="vbmenu_control"><a href="jabberwocky:;" onClick="newWindow=window.open('','usenetCode','toolbar=no, location=no,scrollbars=yes,resizable=yes,status=no ,width=650,height=400'); newWindow.document.write('<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Usenet ASCII</TITLE></HEAD><BODY topmargin=0 leftmargin=0 BGCOLOR=#F1F1F1><table border=0 width=625><td bgcolor=midnightblue><font color=#F1F1F1>This Usenet message\'s original ASCII form: </font></td></tr><tr><td width=449><br><br><font face=courier><UL><PRE>Igor Khavkine &lt;k_igor_k@lycos.com&gt; wrote in message news:&lt;pan.2004.11.27.16.46.28.612973@lycos.com&gt;... \n\n&gt;\n&gt; I wonder if there are similar tricks that can be played with the tensor\n&gt; product of vector spaces. Can the tensor product be represented as a\n&gt; coproduct in another category? If so, is there an analogous "block\n&gt; decomposition" of maps between tensor products of spaces in diagramatic\n&gt; notation?\n\nYes, there is, at least for the block description. But it\'s a bit trickier.\n\nFirst let\'s do the tensor product of two vectors, say\n[a_1]\n[a_2]\n[...]\n[a_m]\n\nand\n\n[b_1]\n[b_2]\n[...]\n[b_n]\n\nNotice that these vectors are not of the same size. The tensor\nproduct is then the vector\n[a_1 b_1]\n[a_1 b_2]\n[...]\n[a_1 b_n]\n[a_2 b_1]\n[...]\n[a_2 b_n]\n[...]\n[...]\n[a_m b_1]\n[...]\n[a_m b_n].\n\nSo the dimension of the tensor product is obtained by multiplying\nthe dimensions of the individual vectors. The components of the\ntensor product are obtained by multiplying the components of the\nindividual vectors.\n\nIf one wants the tensor product of two row vectors, you get\na similar row vector. But if you want to take the tensor product\nof the row vector [a_1 a_2 ...a_m] and the column\nvector\n[b_1]\n[...]\n[b_n]\n\nyou get the matrix\n[a_1 b_1 a_2 b_1 .... a_m b_1]\n[a_1 b_2 a_2 b_2 .... a_m b_2]\n[.................................]\n[a_1 b_n a_2 b_n .... a_m b_n].\n\nAs for the tensor product of two linear transformations, let\'s\nstick to column vectors and suppose we have an m by n matrix\n\n[a_11 ... a_1n]\n[...............]\n[a_m1 ... a_mn]\n\nand a p by q matrix\n\n[b_11 ... b_1q]\n[..............]\n[b_p1 ... b_pq]\n\nand we want to take the tensor rpoduct of these two\nmatrices. The result will be a mp by nq matrix whose entries\nare products of the entries of the original matrices:\n\n[a_11 b_11 a_11 b_12 ...a_11 b_1q a_12 b_11 ...a_12 b_1q ...a_1n b_1q]\n[a_11 b_21 .................................................. ...a_1n b_2q]\n[.................................................. ......................]\n[a_11 b_p1 .................................................. .. a_1n b_pq]\n[...]\n[...]\n[a_m1 b_11 a_m1 b_12..........................................a_m1 b_1q]\n[...]\n[a_mn b_p1 a_mn b_p2 .........................................a_mn b_pq]\n\nUsing this, it is also easy to see several of the relationships between\ntensor products and direct sums, but I think I\'ll pass on that for right now :).\n\n\n\n--Dan Grubb\n\n</UL></PRE></font></td></tr></table></BODY><HTML>');"> <IMG SRC=/images/buttons/ip.gif BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER ALT="View this Usenet post in original ASCII form">&nbsp;&nbsp;View this Usenet post in original ASCII form </a></div><P></jabberwocky>Igor Khavkine <k_{igor_k}@lycos.com> wrote in message news:<pan.2004.11.27.16.46.28.612973@lycos.com>...

>
> I wonder if there are similar tricks that can be played with the tensor
> product of vector spaces. Can the tensor product be represented as a
> coproduct in another category? If so, is there an analogous "block
> decomposition" of maps between tensor products of spaces in diagramatic
> notation?

Yes, there is, at least for the block description. But it's a bit trickier.

First let's do the tensor product of two vectors, say
[a_1][a_2]
[...]
[a_m]

and

[b_1][b_2][/itex]
[...]
[b_n]

Notice that these vectors are not of the same size. The tensor
product is then the vector
[a_1 b_1][a_1 b_2]
[...]
[a_1 b_n][a_2 b_1]
[...]
[a_2 b_n]
[...]
[...]
[a_m b_1]
[...]
[a_m b_n].

So the dimension of the tensor product is obtained by multiplying
the dimensions of the individual vectors. The components of the
tensor product are obtained by multiplying the components of the
individual vectors.

If one wants the tensor product of two row vectors, you get
a similar row vector. But if you want to take the tensor product
of the row vector [a_1 a_2 ...a_m] and the column
vector
[b_1][...][b_n]

you get the matrix
[a_1 b_1 a_2 b_1 .... a_m b_1][a_1 b_2 a_2 b_2 .... a_m b_2]
[.................................]
[a_1 b_n a_2 b_n .... a_m b_n].

As for the tensor product of two linear transformations, let's
stick to column vectors and suppose we have an m by n matrix

[a_{11} ... a_{1n}]
[...............]
[a_{m1} ... a_{mn}]

and a p by q matrix

[b_{11} ... b_{1q}]
[..............]
[b_{p1} ... b_{pq}]

and we want to take the tensor rpoduct of these two
matrices. The result will be a mp by nq matrix whose entries
are products of the entries of the original matrices:

[a_{11} b_{11} a_{11} b_{12} ...a_{11} b_{1q} a_{12} b_{11} ...a_{12} b_{1q} ...a_{1n} b_{1q}][a_{11} b_{21} .................................................. ...a_{1n} b_{2q}][.................................................. ......................][a_{11} b_{p1} .................................................. .. a_{1n} b_{pq}][...][...][a_{m1} b_{11} a_{m1} b_{12}..........................................a_ {m1} b_{1q}][...][a_{mn} b_{p1} a_{mn} b_{p2} ......................................[itex]...a_{mn} b_{pq}]

Using this, it is also easy to see several of the relationships between
tensor products and direct sums, but I think I'll pass on that for right now :).



--Dan Grubb

Igor Khavkine
Nov30-04, 12:50 PM
<jabberwocky><div class="vbmenu_control"><a href="jabberwocky:;" onClick="newWindow=window.open('','usenetCode','toolbar=no, location=no,scrollbars=yes,resizable=yes,status=no ,width=650,height=400'); newWindow.document.write('<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Usenet ASCII</TITLE></HEAD><BODY topmargin=0 leftmargin=0 BGCOLOR=#F1F1F1><table border=0 width=625><td bgcolor=midnightblue><font color=#F1F1F1>This Usenet message\'s original ASCII form: </font></td></tr><tr><td width=449><br><br><font face=courier><UL><PRE>On Mon, 29 Nov 2004 08:52:13 +0000, Oz wrote:\n\n&gt; Igor Khavkine &lt;k_igor_k@lycos.com&gt; writes\n&gt;&gt;\n&gt;&gt;I think matrix notation is not as bad as some people make it seem. Being\n&gt;&gt;familiar with matrices provides a great step towards either index or\n&gt;&gt;index-free tensor notation. One just has to realize that there is a\n&gt;&gt;hidden structure when things are written in row and column notation.\n&gt;\n&gt; &lt;snip&gt;\n&gt;\n&gt; WOW! That puts the whole thing neatly and very clearly.\n&gt;\n&gt; That would do most admirably for a handout during a lecture. [OK the\n&gt; category stuff could be left till later.]\n\nThat might be a good idea for when I have to TA linear algebra.\n\n&gt;&gt;The only danger here is forgetting that the meaning of the transpose is\n&gt;&gt;not invariant under change of basis. One has to remember that a change of\n&gt;&gt;basis changes the matrix elements of the metric, so it is no longer\n&gt;&gt;represented by the identity matrix in the new basis.\n&gt;\n&gt; To save me having to think too hard, am I to infer that there is some\n&gt; preferred basis (which seems unlikely) or we have an infinity of bases\n&gt; where that is true up to a constant (4D, not 3-1D)? I would expect\n&gt; rotation and translation of a rectangular basis to give (after some\n&gt; manipulation) an identity matrix back again. If one had, say, a polar\n&gt; basis, then that would be a different thing.\n\nWhat I talked about applies only to linear spaces. If you want to deal\nwith curvilinear coordinates and manifolds, then everything I said still\napplies but to individual tangent spaces attached to every point of the\nmanifold. A choice of coordinates yields a choice of basis in the tangent\nspace at a point, but one can forget about where the choice of basis comes\nfrom and just work with a given one. My point was that transposition\ndefines a metric tensor with specific matrix elements (the identity\nmatrix). But you can think of _any_ inner product space this way as long\nas you choose an orthonormal basis (the definition of orthonormal basis\nsays that in it the metric tensor is represented by the identity matrix).\nNote however that the choice of orthonormal basis is not unique, there are\ninfinitely many, in fact. And each one can be transformed into any other\none by an orthogonal transformation.\n\n&gt; For (3-1)D it surely gets more involved. Over the years of trying to get\n&gt; some knowledge here by a hugely inefficient process of osmosis I have\n&gt; tended to see objects as having a locally preferred frame (its rest\n&gt; frame). In this frame I can intuitively understand processes since I have\n&gt; lived in one for many years. I then simply do a lorentz transformation if\n&gt; I want to see these processes happening in another frame.\n\nWhen you are dealing with a Lorentzian metric, it cannot be simply\nrepresented by a transposition. But it can be represented by transposition\ntogether with changing the sign of one of the components of your vector.\nIf you choose to do this, like in the Euclidean example above, it means\nthat you\'ve chosen a locally inertial frame (analog of orthonormal) and\neach inertial frame can be transformed into another inertial frame by a\nLorentz transformation (analog of orthogonal).\n\n&gt; Hmmmm. Writing that out has just crystallised a thought that has been\n&gt; nagging at the back of my mind for a long time. That\'s what physics does,\n&gt; isn\'t it? In essence we describe physics by putting everything into a\n&gt; single frame and assigning names and physics for the off-frame components.\n&gt; So:\n&gt;\n&gt; Rest frame \'Physics\' in another frame. sees\n&gt;\n&gt; Frame rotation Velocity\n&gt; Electric force Magnetic force\n&gt; Bent frame Gravity\n&gt; Energy Momentum\n&gt; Momentum Energy\n&gt; etc\n\nNot exactly sure what you mean by "off-frame components" here. You seem to\nhave the thread of a right idea, but this list seems to be tagging it in\nall different directions without bringing the other end of the thread any\ncloser.\n\nThe idea that I think you are getting at is the following: We know about\nphysics of things that are standing still and we know about physics of\nthings that are moving. The physics of stationary things are often simpler\nthan that of the moving ones. However, we know that standing still and\nbeing in motion are related by the principle of relativity. Hence there\nexist well defined transformations between physics of stationary things to\nthat of moving ones. In other words, we can take simple information that\nwe know about stationary things and transform it accordingly to get\napparently more complicated information about moving things. The\npieces information that you paired up in the two columns of your list are\nrelated, but there actually isn\'t such a clear dichotomy between them.\n\n&gt;&gt;Another disadvantage of matrix notation is its two-dimensionality. In\n&gt;&gt;other words, it is hard to work with tensors of rank higher than two. Any\n&gt;&gt;second rank tensor can be written as a matrix with the appropriate\n&gt;&gt;indices raised or lowered by the implied metric. However, there is no\n&gt;&gt;convenient notation for tensors of higher rank.\n&gt;\n&gt; Yes, this is a bit of a blow.\n&gt; Can we not go (not that I am suggesting it) to multi-dimensional matrices?\n\nIn principle, this idea may be made to work. But human senses have their\nown limitations.\n\n&gt;&gt;I wonder if there are similar tricks that can be played with the tensor\n&gt;&gt;product of vector spaces. Can the tensor product be represented as a\n&gt;&gt;coproduct in another category? If so, is there an analogous "block\n&gt;&gt;decomposition" of maps between tensor products of spaces in diagramatic\n&gt;&gt;notation?\n&gt;\n&gt; Ahhh! Tucked at the end is your *real* question, if not a request!\n\nI do hope that someone has an answer. Otherwise I\'d have to waste some\ntime trying to figure it out. :-)\n\nIgor\n\n</UL></PRE></font></td></tr></table></BODY><HTML>');"> <IMG SRC=/images/buttons/ip.gif BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER ALT="View this Usenet post in original ASCII form">&nbsp;&nbsp;View this Usenet post in original ASCII form </a></div><P></jabberwocky>On Mon, 29 Nov 2004 08:52:13 +0000, Oz wrote:

> Igor Khavkine <k_{igor_k}@lycos.com> writes
>>
>>I think matrix notation is not as bad as some people make it seem. Being
>>familiar with matrices provides a great step towards either index or
>>index-free tensor notation. One just has to realize that there is a
>>hidden structure when things are written in row and column notation.
>
> <snip>
>
> WOW! That puts the whole thing neatly and very clearly.
>
> That would do most admirably for a handout during a lecture. [OK the
> category stuff could be left till later.]

That might be a good idea for when I have to TA linear algebra.

>>The only danger here is forgetting that the meaning of the transpose is
>>not invariant under change of basis. One has to remember that a change of
>>basis changes the matrix elements of the metric, so it is no longer
>>represented by the identity matrix in the new basis.
>
> To save me having to think too hard, am I to infer that there is some
> preferred basis (which seems unlikely) or we have an infinity of bases
> where that is true up to a constant (4D, not 3-1D)? I would expect
> rotation and translation of a rectangular basis to give (after some
> manipulation) an identity matrix back again. If one had, say, a polar
> basis, then that would be a different thing.

What I talked about applies only to linear spaces. If you want to deal
with curvilinear coordinates and manifolds, then everything I said still
applies but to individual tangent spaces attached to every point of the
manifold. A choice of coordinates yields a choice of basis in the tangent
space at a point, but one can forget about where the choice of basis comes
from and just work with a given one. My point was that transposition
defines a metric tensor with specific matrix elements (the identity
matrix). But you can think of _any_ inner product space this way as long
as you choose an orthonormal basis (the definition of orthonormal basis
says that in it the metric tensor is represented by the identity matrix).
Note however that the choice of orthonormal basis is not unique, there are
infinitely many, in fact. And each one can be transformed into any other
one by an orthogonal transformation.

> For (3-1)D it surely gets more involved. Over the years of trying to get
> some knowledge here by a hugely inefficient process of osmosis I have
> tended to see objects as having a locally preferred frame (its rest
> frame). In this frame I can intuitively understand processes since I have
> lived in one for many years. I then simply do a lorentz transformation if
> I want to see these processes happening in another frame.

When you are dealing with a Lorentzian metric, it cannot be simply
represented by a transposition. But it can be represented by transposition
together with changing the sign of one of the components of your vector.
If you choose to do this, like in the Euclidean example above, it means
that you've chosen a locally inertial frame (analog of orthonormal) and
each inertial frame can be transformed into another inertial frame by a
Lorentz transformation (analog of orthogonal).

> Hmmmm. Writing that out has just crystallised a thought that has been
> nagging at the back of my mind for a long time. That's what physics does,
> isn't it? In essence we describe physics by putting everything into a
> single frame and assigning names and physics for the off-frame components.
> So:
>
> Rest frame 'Physics' in another frame. sees
>
> Frame rotation Velocity
> Electric force Magnetic force
> Bent frame Gravity
> Energy Momentum
> Momentum Energy
> etc

Not exactly sure what you mean by "off-frame components" here. You seem to
have the thread of a right idea, but this list seems to be tagging it in
all different directions without bringing the other end of the thread any
closer.

The idea that I think you are getting at is the following: We know about
physics of things that are standing still and we know about physics of
things that are moving. The physics of stationary things are often simpler
than that of the moving ones. However, we know that standing still and
being in motion are related by the principle of relativity. Hence there
exist well defined transformations between physics of stationary things to
that of moving ones. In other words, we can take simple information that
we know about stationary things and transform it accordingly to get
apparently more complicated information about moving things. The
pieces information that you paired up in the two columns of your list are
related, but there actually isn't such a clear dichotomy between them.

>>Another disadvantage of matrix notation is its two-dimensionality. In
>>other words, it is hard to work with tensors of rank higher than two. Any
>>second rank tensor can be written as a matrix with the appropriate
>>indices raised or lowered by the implied metric. However, there is no
>>convenient notation for tensors of higher rank.
>
> Yes, this is a bit of a blow.
> Can we not go (not that I am suggesting it) to multi-dimensional matrices?

In principle, this idea may be made to work. But human senses have their
own limitations.

>>I wonder if there are similar tricks that can be played with the tensor
>>product of vector spaces. Can the tensor product be represented as a
>>coproduct in another category? If so, is there an analogous "block
>>decomposition" of maps between tensor products of spaces in diagramatic
>>notation?
>
> Ahhh! Tucked at the end is your *real* question, if not a request!

I do hope that someone has an answer. Otherwise I'd have to waste some
time trying to figure it out. :-)

Igor

Oz
Dec7-04, 08:06 AM
<jabberwocky><div class="vbmenu_control"><a href="jabberwocky:;" onClick="newWindow=window.open('','usenetCode','toolbar=no, location=no,scrollbars=yes,resizable=yes,status=no ,width=650,height=400'); newWindow.document.write('<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Usenet ASCII</TITLE></HEAD><BODY topmargin=0 leftmargin=0 BGCOLOR=#F1F1F1><table border=0 width=625><td bgcolor=midnightblue><font color=#F1F1F1>This Usenet message\'s original ASCII form: </font></td></tr><tr><td width=449><br><br><font face=courier><UL><PRE>\n\n[Apologies for delay, thought I had posted this days ago.]\n\nIgor Khavkine &lt;k_igor_k@lycos.com&gt; writes\n&gt;\n&gt;What I talked about applies only to linear spaces. If you want to deal\n&gt;with curvilinear coordinates and manifolds, then everything I said still\n&gt;applies but to individual tangent spaces attached to every point of the\n&gt;manifold.\n\nI think I can see the idea of this. Its not hugely clear to me how you\nactually execute the idea though. [NB Having read through what I have\nwritten for this section, which is musings, probably best to read to the\nend before replying.]\n\nFor an embedded manifold (which I tend by default to think of as a fat\n2-D torus in a 3-D space for some reason) it would seem to be\nstraightforward to impose a \'global rectilinear co-ordinate. I guess the\nlatter is an expression of the space the torus is embedded in.\n\nHmmm. I guess you could imagine a little ant (or the more conventional\nspear-carrying roman soldier) crawling around his (2D) space trying to\nmark out a co-ordinate system, but this would pretty soon get messy and\nindeed ambiguous.\n\nHmmm. What you need to do is cover your space in patches. So long as\nthey all just completely cover the space then you should be onto a\nwinner. You just poke your co-ordinate system out of one patch and into\nthe other along the edges.\n\nHmm. Oh. Oh dear. Its not that simple ....\nOn a sphere you have two poles. Well, somewhere (twice), if you want to\ncover the whole space, you will have a bit of a clash of co-ordinates.\nAhh, but these are points. As long as you keep away from these points\n(by a choice of co-ordinate system) everything will work just fine.\n\nEh? But that\'s a nonsense because a sphere is perfectly ordinary. Poles\nare an artefact of the particular co-ordinate system we are using. The\nnorth pole is a perfectly reasonable place, except you can say how many\ndegrees east you are. Its not like a singularity, after all.\n\nI guess we could do stuff by having two sets of co-ordinate systems,\nwith a mapping from one to the other, and just switch over when things\nget a bit tricky. That\'s pretty ugly though. There must be a better way\nthat reflects reality. Ahh, I\'ll bet you can do that by just considering\npoints, and a path going through the points, but then you might get\nambiguities on what you mean by length and area in different patches.\nHmmm. Yes, that gives an insight into stuff like \'total energy of the\nuniverse\' (not).\n\n&lt;cough&gt;\n&lt;ahem&gt;\nNow, where were we?\n\n&gt;A choice of coordinates yields a choice of basis in the tangent\n&gt;space at a point, but one can forget about where the choice of basis comes\n&gt;from and just work with a given one.\n\nOK, I think I see what you mean.\n\n&gt;My point was that transposition\n&gt;defines a metric tensor with specific matrix elements (the identity\n&gt;matrix). But you can think of _any_ inner product space this way as long\n&gt;as you choose an orthonormal basis (the definition of orthonormal basis\n&gt;says that in it the metric tensor is represented by the identity matrix).\n&gt;Note however that the choice of orthonormal basis is not unique, there are\n&gt;infinitely many, in fact. And each one can be transformed into any other\n&gt;one by an orthogonal transformation.\n\nYup. OK.\n\n&gt;&gt; For (3-1)D it surely gets more involved. Over the years of trying to get\n&gt;&gt; some knowledge here by a hugely inefficient process of osmosis I have\n&gt;&gt; tended to see objects as having a locally preferred frame (its rest\n&gt;&gt; frame). In this frame I can intuitively understand processes since I have\n&gt;&gt; lived in one for many years. I then simply do a lorentz transformation if\n&gt;&gt; I want to see these processes happening in another frame.\n&gt;\n&gt;When you are dealing with a Lorentzian metric, it cannot be simply\n&gt;represented by a transposition. But it can be represented by transposition\n&gt;together with changing the sign of one of the components of your vector.\n&gt;If you choose to do this, like in the Euclidean example above, it means\n&gt;that you\'ve chosen a locally inertial frame (analog of orthonormal) and\n&gt;each inertial frame can be transformed into another inertial frame by a\n&gt;Lorentz transformation (analog of orthogonal).\n\nEither I\'m missing something or that\'s just a precise statement of what\nI tried to say above.\n\nIt seems to me that every particle in a (3+1) spacetime carries its own\npreferred frame (for massive particles its rest frame). I have for years\nhad an uncontrollable urge to assign a preferred frame to\n\'electromagnetic things\' which is the frame where it can all be assigned\nas \'pure electrostatic\'. In these frames a particle is particularly\nsimple and symmetric. That\'s why I am inherently cranky. Oh, it gets\nworse. I also have an irresistible urge to assign an extra dimension\ncalled \'electrostatic\' to make it a (1+4)D space. In electrostatic space\nthe electron (say) is an object that has an infinite extent in\n\'electrostatic space\' and is in effect similar to a dislocation (in the\ncrystallographic meaning) in some sense. Yes, I know, I\'ll be taken away\nby the men in white suits some time soon.\n\n&lt;cough&gt;\n&lt;ahem&gt;\n\nNow, where were we?\n\n&gt;&gt; Hmmmm. Writing that out has just crystallised a thought that has been\n&gt;&gt; nagging at the back of my mind for a long time. That\'s what physics does,\n&gt;&gt; isn\'t it? In essence we describe physics by putting everything into a\n&gt;&gt; single frame and assigning names and physics for the off-frame components.\n&gt;&gt; So:\n&gt;&gt;\n&gt;&gt; Rest frame \'Physics\' in another frame. sees\n&gt;&gt;\n&gt;&gt; Frame rotation Velocity\n&gt;&gt; Electric force Magnetic force\n&gt;&gt; Bent frame Gravity\n&gt;&gt; Energy Momentum\n&gt;&gt; Momentum Energy\n&gt;&gt; etc\n&gt;\n&gt;Not exactly sure what you mean by "off-frame components" here.\n\nI\'m taking the rest frame of a particle as defining its preferred frame,\nso the \'off frame components\' are those that would be zero measured in\nthe preferred frame of that particle. If you see what I mean.\n\n&gt;You seem to\n&gt;have the thread of a right idea,\n\nUsually people say something rude at this point....\n\n&gt;but this list seems to be tagging it in\n&gt;all different directions without bringing the other end of the thread any\n&gt;closer.\n\nOoops, sorry, I have a real bad habit of doing this ....\n\n&gt;The idea that I think you are getting at is the following: We know about\n&gt;physics of things that are standing still and we know about physics of\n&gt;things that are moving. The physics of stationary things are often simpler\n&gt;than that of the moving ones. However, we know that standing still and\n&gt;being in motion are related by the principle of relativity. Hence there\n&gt;exist well defined transformations between physics of stationary things to\n&gt;that of moving ones. In other words, we can take simple information that\n&gt;we know about stationary things and transform it accordingly to get\n&gt;apparently more complicated information about moving things. The\n&gt;pieces information that you paired up in the two columns of your list are\n&gt;related, but there actually isn\'t such a clear dichotomy between them.\n\nI couldn\'t have said it better myself, regrettably .....\n\n&gt;&gt;&gt;Another disadvantage of matrix notation is its two-dimensionality. In\n&gt;&gt;&gt;other words, it is hard to work with tensors of rank higher than two. Any\n&gt;&gt;&gt;second rank tensor can be written as a matrix with the appropriate\n&gt;&gt;&gt;indices raised or lowered by the implied metric. However, there is no\n&gt;&gt;&gt;convenient notation for tensors of higher rank.\n&gt;&gt;\n&gt;&gt; Yes, this is a bit of a blow.\n&gt;&gt; Can we not go (not that I am suggesting it) to multi-dimensional matrices?\n&gt;\n&gt;In principle, this idea may be made to work. But human senses have their\n&gt;own limitations.\n\nIndeed, but to an extent I\'m not sure this is a critical problem.\nOnce you step outside 3D, or to an extent 4D (a moving 3-d \'image\') its\npretty tricky although imagining a 4D object with attached electric\nfield (colour helps here) can get you to 5D and beyond.\n\nHowever I don\'t think that\'s necessary. Providing you know how to do it\nmathematically and the operations are defined then its done \'by\nanalogy\'.\n\n&gt;&gt;&gt;I wonder if there are similar tricks that can be played with the tensor\n&gt;&gt;&gt;product of vector spaces. Can the tensor product be represented as a\n&gt;&gt;&gt;coproduct in another category? If so, is there an analogous "block\n&gt;&gt;&gt;decomposition" of maps between tensor products of spaces in diagramatic\n&gt;&gt;&gt;notation?\n&gt;&gt;\n&gt;&gt; Ahhh! Tucked at the end is your *real* question, if not a request!\n&gt;\n&gt;I do hope that someone has an answer. Otherwise I\'d have to waste some\n&gt;time trying to figure it out. :-)\n\nHey, look on the bright side -\nat least you are capable of working it out!\n\n--\nOz\nThis post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious.\n\nUse oz@farmeroz.port995.com [ozacoohdb@despammed.com functions].\nBTOPENWORLD address has ceased. DEMON address has ceased.\n\n</UL></PRE></font></td></tr></table></BODY><HTML>');"> <IMG SRC=/images/buttons/ip.gif BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER ALT="View this Usenet post in original ASCII form">&nbsp;&nbsp;View this Usenet post in original ASCII form </a></div><P></jabberwocky>[Apologies for delay, thought I had posted this days ago.]

Igor Khavkine <k_{igor_k}@lycos.com> writes
>
>What I talked about applies only to linear spaces. If you want to deal
>with curvilinear coordinates and manifolds, then everything I said still
>applies but to individual tangent spaces attached to every point of the
>manifold.

I think I can see the idea of this. Its not hugely clear to me how you
actually execute the idea though. [NB Having read through what I have
written for this section, which is musings, probably best to read to the
end before replying.]

For an embedded manifold (which I tend by default to think of as a fat
2-D torus in a 3-D space for some reason) it would seem to be
straightforward to impose a 'global rectilinear co-ordinate. I guess the
latter is an expression of the space the torus is embedded in.

Hmmm. I guess you could imagine a little ant (or the more conventional
spear-carrying roman soldier) crawling around his (2D) space trying to
mark out a co-ordinate system, but this would pretty soon get messy and
indeed ambiguous.

Hmmm. What you need to do is cover your space in patches. So long as
they all just completely cover the space then you should be onto a
winner. You just poke your co-ordinate system out of one patch and into
the other along the edges.

Hmm. Oh. Oh dear. Its not that simple ....
On a sphere you have two poles. Well, somewhere (twice), if you want to
cover the whole space, you will have a bit of a clash of co-ordinates.
Ahh, but these are points. As long as you keep away from these points
(by a choice of co-ordinate system) everything will work just fine.

Eh? But that's a nonsense because a sphere is perfectly ordinary. Poles
are an artefact of the particular co-ordinate system we are using. The
north pole is a perfectly reasonable place, except you can say how many
degrees east you are. Its not like a singularity, after all.

I guess we could do stuff by having two sets of co-ordinate systems,
with a mapping from one to the other, and just switch over when things
get a bit tricky. That's pretty ugly though. There must be a better way
that reflects reality. Ahh, I'll bet you can do that by just considering
points, and a path going through the points, but then you might get
ambiguities on what you mean by length and area in different patches.
Hmmm. Yes, that gives an insight into stuff like 'total energy of the
universe' (not).

<cough>
<ahem>
Now, where were we?

>A choice of coordinates yields a choice of basis in the tangent
>space at a point, but one can forget about where the choice of basis comes
>from and just work with a given one.

OK, I think I see what you mean.

>My point was that transposition
>defines a metric tensor with specific matrix elements (the identity
>matrix). But you can think of _any_ inner product space this way as long
>as you choose an orthonormal basis (the definition of orthonormal basis
>says that in it the metric tensor is represented by the identity matrix).
>Note however that the choice of orthonormal basis is not unique, there are
>infinitely many, in fact. And each one can be transformed into any other
>one by an orthogonal transformation.

Yup. OK.

>> For (3-1)D it surely gets more involved. Over the years of trying to get
>> some knowledge here by a hugely inefficient process of osmosis I have
>> tended to see objects as having a locally preferred frame (its rest
>> frame). In this frame I can intuitively understand processes since I have
>> lived in one for many years. I then simply do a lorentz transformation if
>> I want to see these processes happening in another frame.
>
>When you are dealing with a Lorentzian metric, it cannot be simply
>represented by a transposition. But it can be represented by transposition
>together with changing the sign of one of the components of your vector.
>If you choose to do this, like in the Euclidean example above, it means
>that you've chosen a locally inertial frame (analog of orthonormal) and
>each inertial frame can be transformed into another inertial frame by a
>Lorentz transformation (analog of orthogonal).

Either I'm missing something or that's just a precise statement of what
I tried to say above.

It seems to me that every particle in a (3+1) spacetime carries its own
preferred frame (for massive particles its rest frame). I have for years
had an uncontrollable urge to assign a preferred frame to
'electromagnetic things' which is the frame where it can all be assigned
as 'pure electrostatic'. In these frames a particle is particularly
simple and symmetric. That's why I am inherently cranky. Oh, it gets
worse. I also have an irresistible urge to assign an extra dimension
called 'electrostatic' to make it a (1+4)D space. In electrostatic space
the electron (say) is an object that has an infinite extent in
'electrostatic space' and is in effect similar to a dislocation (in the
crystallographic meaning) in some sense. Yes, I know, I'll be taken away
by the men in white suits some time soon.

<cough>
<ahem>

Now, where were we?

>> Hmmmm. Writing that out has just crystallised a thought that has been
>> nagging at the back of my mind for a long time. That's what physics does,
>> isn't it? In essence we describe physics by putting everything into a
>> single frame and assigning names and physics for the off-frame components.
>> So:
>>
>> Rest frame 'Physics' in another frame. sees
>>
>> Frame rotation Velocity
>> Electric force Magnetic force
>> Bent frame Gravity
>> Energy Momentum
>> Momentum Energy
>> etc
>
>Not exactly sure what you mean by "off-frame components" here.

I'm taking the rest frame of a particle as defining its preferred frame,
so the 'off frame components' are those that would be zero measured in
the preferred frame of that particle. If you see what I mean.

>You seem to
>have the thread of a right idea,

Usually people say something rude at this point....

>but this list seems to be tagging it in
>all different directions without bringing the other end of the thread any
>closer.

Ooops, sorry, I have a real bad habit of doing this ....

>The idea that I think you are getting at is the following: We know about
>physics of things that are standing still and we know about physics of
>things that are moving. The physics of stationary things are often simpler
>than that of the moving ones. However, we know that standing still and
>being in motion are related by the principle of relativity. Hence there
>exist well defined transformations between physics of stationary things to
>that of moving ones. In other words, we can take simple information that
>we know about stationary things and transform it accordingly to get
>apparently more complicated information about moving things. The
>pieces information that you paired up in the two columns of your list are
>related, but there actually isn't such a clear dichotomy between them.

I couldn't have said it better myself, regrettably .....

>>>Another disadvantage of matrix notation is its two-dimensionality. In
>>>other words, it is hard to work with tensors of rank higher than two. Any
>>>second rank tensor can be written as a matrix with the appropriate
>>>indices raised or lowered by the implied metric. However, there is no
>>>convenient notation for tensors of higher rank.
>>
>> Yes, this is a bit of a blow.
>> Can we not go (not that I am suggesting it) to multi-dimensional matrices?
>
>In principle, this idea may be made to work. But human senses have their
>own limitations.

Indeed, but to an extent I'm not sure this is a critical problem.
Once you step outside 3D, or to an extent 4D (a moving 3-d 'image') its
pretty tricky although imagining a 4D object with attached electric
field (colour helps here) can get you to 5D and beyond.

However I don't think that's necessary. Providing you know how to do it
mathematically and the operations are defined then its done 'by
analogy'.

>>>I wonder if there are similar tricks that can be played with the tensor
>>>product of vector spaces. Can the tensor product be represented as a
>>>coproduct in another category? If so, is there an analogous "block
>>>decomposition" of maps between tensor products of spaces in diagramatic
>>>notation?
>>
>> Ahhh! Tucked at the end is your *real* question, if not a request!
>
>I do hope that someone has an answer. Otherwise I'd have to waste some
>time trying to figure it out. :-)

Hey, look on the bright side -
at least you are capable of working it out!

--
Oz
This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious.

Use oz@farmeroz.port995.com [ozacoohdb@despammed.com functions].
BTOPENWORLD address has ceased. DEMON address has ceased.