I discussed about how the transporter in Star Trek operates and why it would never work. Any procedure that convert matter to energy would be deadly and reconstruct person from this energy is a clone, not the original. In addition, the disassembly of crew members at the atomic level is not a viable option either due to the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle. However, there may be a way to teleport a human: quantum tunneling.
There is an article on the net about quantum physics and in one section, the author mentions about quantum teleportation. Here is a quote from the author:
"Teleportation: As the probability wave suggests, you can get from Point A to Point C without necessarily passing through Point B. Small particles can jump from one location to another without actually moving through space between points, which is sometimes called a 'quantum leap'. In theory, this could be extended to larger particles."undefined
In Quantum tunneling a particle can bypass a barrier and appear on the other side of it without traveling thru it. The process is responible for radioactive decay of elements where an alpha will tunnel out of the nucleus of Uranium atom and then under go beta decay. Electronic use Quantum tunneling of electron in certain transitor (such as a Tunneling diode).
Now Quantum tunneling is due to the fact that particles have a wave function. This Wave function is the possibility of a particle being at speciific location. If you could control this possibility wave you can transport a particle to any location that it could have travel to or will travel to. Do this with a person, and you could teleport him without turning him to energy or breaking him down into his basic molecules and beaming him.
All you would need is to know his wave function (yes people have a wave function, and even the universe can be express as one) and alter it in a manner (how I have no idea) that alter his possibility of his location to place him where you wish him to be. He would suddenly be at that location, in a instant.
All that is require is finding a way to manipulate the wave function of the particles involved. We do this all the time to beams of particles like photon and electrons. Take the double slit experiment for example. By closing and opening a single slit we can determine whether particle like a photon, proton,neutron or electron behave like wave or steams of particles.
Not only can we effect the path the particle take but actually where it impact on the target, without applying a physical force to the particle itself. Basicly we are shaping the possiblitily wave in a manner that defies common logic and how this is done is one of the mystery of modern physic.
What causes the Quantum wave form to collaspe, determining when or where a particle appears. We know when we attempt to measure a particle it happen, but the mechanism of how it happen is unknown. If we knew how the Wave function is force to collaspe then we may be able to effect the outcome.
We could at will make a collection of particles like a human behave like a wave and then change the location by forcing the wave function to collaspe with the possibility that he some where else. The chance of any particle under QT is very rare, in order to actually teleport an object we would need to work with the the combine waveform of the object. Treating the macro object as a single particle. This is not unknow since there are cases of Marco quantum Tunneling of Molecules and collection of particles.
Using Quantum tunneling as a means of teleportation depends on being able to control the Quantum waveform of an object directly. As it stand we donot known what kind of wave (whether if a real wave or just not) it is exactly, but if we could then the whole chance thing goes out the window.
We can alter the chance of an object being on Mar instead of being on earth and boom it would appear there.
All real cases of quantum tunneling is over small distants like Nanometers, but in theory if one had the ablities to alter Quantum wave form like we can do with sound wave the change in distant would only depend on the amount of energy needed to perform the change. The fact is that we usually alter wave forms thru the use of resonent chambe, alter possibilities waves may require the use of Ghost particles.
Ghost particles was a result of a method of looking at interaction of subatomic partcles called Scatter matrix. Basically it look at the input of particles into a collision and the output and assigned them values according to Charge, spin, baryon number, etc and finally the possiblitily of this particle actually being created in the reaction. Some outputs would have a negative possibility, which indicated a particle called a ghost. These ghost could alter the Possibility of other particles quantum functions. These ghosts is basically what killed S matrix as a tool of particle physicists, but ghost do still appear in many attempt to create Super Gravity theories or grand unification theories.
So it would most likely be Ghost radiation that would be used...
Ghost particles and state are the subject of many papers on theorical Physics especially invovling Quantum gravity. While many physicists cannot deal with particles with negative possiblitilies, this should not be a problem. As it stand negative energy and antimatter were concepts that made physicist uncomfortable also. Therefore, ghost radiation seems to be the best candidate. Such ghost particles would allow us to alter the possibilty waves of systems of particle.
See : http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/quant-ph/pdf/0207/0207083.pdf
What does everybody else thinks?
Whitestar
docbill
12.19.04, 02:14 PM
The problem is you are simply wrong. True teleportation would not be cloning. In fact the "no cloning" theorem of physics proves it. The question comes down to what is defined as being the same, vs. what is defined as being identical (i.e. an exact clone). Something identical, i.e. a clone, is something with all the same measured properties. Something that is just the same thing is when all the measured and unmeasured properties are the same. For example, in essence every right hand spin electron is a clone of every other right spin electron. You could interchange the electrons and never know the difference. However, spin is not just right handed and left-handed. That is just what we can measure. Depending on our exact measurement, every electron in the universe would produce different results. They are not the same. The idea of a "qbit" is that unmeasured property of the electron.
It turns out you can never determine the value of a qbit, because measuring destroys all but the 0 or 1 property of it. But still they are unique. You also can't make copies of qbit's. You can share a qbit between two objects, but measuring one will also destroy the value in the other. We define an object as being the same if both all the measured properties are identical and the unmeasured properties. It makes sense if you think about it, because what else could we possibly mean by being the same?
Now it turns out the qbit (unmeasured properties) while they cannot be measured, they can be passed from object to object in different states. So imagine if you wanted to "teleport" an electron at the speed of light from the Earth to the Moon. How would you do that? Well your experiment would have a photon interact with the electron in such a way to share pass the qbit to the photon. Now lets say your electron was a right-handed electron. Now all you have to do is intercept your photon when it reaches the moon and pass the qbit to another right-handed electron. You now have an electron with all the same measured and immeasurable properties as the original electron. Ergo, but the definition it is the *same* electron.
Now the question comes if you were to do same trick with something more complicated like a person, would it be the same person? Well naturally the person would not know, but neither would a perfect clone. But by definition it would be the same person, even more identical than if the person had taken a spaceship to the moon, since undoubtedly the person would have noticeably changed from the time they left the Earth and arrived on the moon.
Of course the problem with this idea of teleportation is no process is ever going to be 100% efficient. Some of the photons will be missed by the receivers, or interact with matter along the way. However, you are constantly changing too. The person who was you yesterday is really you today. So in the real world, one might not ask if the person arriving on the moon is the same person, but rather how much change have they undergone in the process. A reasonable standard might be measured in terms of how long of random processes would it have taken to for the same amount of difference to occur. In fact I would expect, someone who was teleported regularly not to loss fidelity like a Xerox, but to instead suffer from similar illnesses that come with old age.
Bill
Whitestar
12.19.04, 10:38 PM
The problem is you are simply wrong. True teleportation would not be cloning. In fact the "no cloning" theorem of physics proves it. The question comes down to what is defined as being the same, vs. what is defined as being identical (i.e. an exact clone). Something identical, i.e. a clone, is something with all the same measured properties. Something that is just the same thing is when all the measured and unmeasured properties are the same. For example, in essence every right hand spin electron is a clone of every other right spin electron. You could interchange the electrons and never know the difference. However, spin is not just right handed and left-handed. That is just what we can measure. Depending on our exact measurement, every electron in the universe would produce different results. They are not the same. The idea of a "qbit" is that unmeasured property of the electron.
It turns out you can never determine the value of a qbit, because measuring destroys all but the 0 or 1 property of it. But still they are unique. You also can't make copies of qbit's. You can share a qbit between two objects, but measuring one will also destroy the value in the other. We define an object as being the same if both all the measured properties are identical and the unmeasured properties. It makes sense if you think about it, because what else could we possibly mean by being the same?
But I'm simply referring to quantum tunneling where it is possible in theory to teleport a person instantaneously from one place to another. The person would be traveling fully intact. I think what you're talking about is quantum entanglement.
Whitestar
docbill
12.20.04, 07:35 AM
But I'm simply referring to quantum tunneling where it is possible in theory to teleport a person instantaneously from one place to another. The person would be traveling fully intact. I think what you're talking about is quantum entanglement.
Whitestar
Forgive me, I confused you by responding to your initial comment about the Star Trek transporter. Perfect plausible, with what we know, but at this point only on the micro level...
In regards to quantum tunneling, I must point out once you add the Dirac equation into the mix, it is no longer possible to use Quantum tunneling to exceed the speed of light for more than a small fraction of the speed of light. And since by the very nature of tunnelling you can not guaranteed when something will tunnel it would be very difficult to use it for any sort of teleportation. However, if you combine it with the idea of quantum entanglement, there might be a possibility.
Some theorist claim information can not be sent faster than the speed of light, others claim to have done it. So for now lets consider it a possibility. Imagine I have a single electron I wish to teleport faster than the speed of light. First I might correlate the relevant qbit with say a million a million photons. Then I could run the million very long wavelength photons. Make the wavelength long enough, that the advance front will extend to the destination. If I do my experiment correctly, it is likely one of the photons will actually be at the destination point. So now I swap the qbit from my one photon that made it with an electron of appropriate spin. Walla, I have now teleported my single electron to the destination faster than the speed of light.
Of course you notice, Quantum tunneling isn't actually required. In this faster than light teleportation experiment it would be irrelevant if the photons could occupy the space in between the source and destination. However, for an application across vast distances, it would be useful to have the area in between excluded to increase the chances one of your correlated particles will be at the destination.
Is this possible? Well as I said, it is still open to debate. Most theorist say no, you can not transmit information faster than the speed of light. However, there are well documented experiments that seem to do just that. So until we have a confirmed unified theory of physics, I would say it is a possibility.
Bill
Whitestar
12.20.04, 05:46 PM
Forgive me, I confused you by responding to your initial comment about the Star Trek transporter. Perfect plausible, with what we know, but at this point only on the micro level...
In regards to quantum tunneling, I must point out once you add the Dirac equation into the mix, it is no longer possible to use Quantum tunneling to exceed the speed of light for more than a small fraction of the speed of light. And since by the very nature of tunnelling you can not guaranteed when something will tunnel it would be very difficult to use it for any sort of teleportation. However, if you combine it with the idea of quantum entanglement, there might be a possibility.
The Star Trek transporter works by disassembling a person at the atomic level and converts the atoms into energy. Once you convert a person into energy, that individual is dead. If you were to reverse the process, it would result in a replica. Is this plausible? Probably. But is it desirable? No way. Besides, the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle prevents you from ever measuring an atom's position and velocity at the same time.
In response to your comment on quantum tunneling, you mentioned that by nature you can't guarantee when something will tunnel.
1) Do you think with extremely advance technology, we'll be able to do tunnel whenever we choose?
2) How could tunneling teleportation work in conjunction with quantum entanglement?
Whitestar
docbill
12.27.04, 03:50 PM
The Star Trek transporter works by disassembling a person at the atomic level and converts the atoms into energy. Once you convert a person into energy, that individual is dead. If you were to reverse the process, it would result in a replica. Is this plausible? Probably. But is it desirable? No way. Besides, the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle prevents you from ever measuring an atom's position and velocity at the same time.
I think you are getting hungup on the idea of disassembled into energy. Let me point out the idea of pure energy is non-sense. Energy always has a manifistation, be it mass energy, energy of motion, binding energy, ... So when someone says something is converted into energy, it is ambigious as to what that means. We are already completely energy, no conversion neccessary. So when a character in Star Trek says the transporter disassembles them into energy, they really must mean they are converted to another form of energy. Most theorist believe information is never destroyed. So no matter what form of energy you convert the person to, nothing is lost provided you have sufficient technology to convert them back again.
In response to your comment on quantum tunneling, you mentioned that by nature you can't guarantee when something will tunnel.
1) Do you think with extremely advance technology, we'll be able to do tunnel whenever we choose?
No. Tunnelling will always be a statistics game. However, there are several ways you can cheat at the statistics game. One way is quantum entangling, to increase the number of candidates for tunneling. Given enough candidates, surely one will tunnel when and where you want it. The second way is bending space-time. If the object tunneling is in a reference frame where time passes much more quickly, then it is more likely it will tunnel within a specific time frame for your reference frame.
2) How could tunneling teleportation work in conjunction with quantum entanglement?
Consider I could make an exact copy of you. Meaning I duplicated all the chemicals in your body, and put them in the proper spacial positions so the duplicate would be so exact as to think he was you. Well this person is just a duplicate. So whatever I do with him, won't effect you. Unless, lets say I quantum entangle all the particles making up the duplicate with all the particles making up you. Now, instead of having a duplicate I have two potential you. Which one is you? Well even you can't know that. So now transporter with a 50% chance of success. Chances are one of you will endup where I wanted to transport you. So after the tunnelling, I disentagle the the particles making the version who didn't transport the duplicate, which gets destroyed in the processes, and the one who did tunnel the original.
Of course, doing the with a whole person is absurd as I described, but instead it could be done molecule by molecule with however many copies of each molecule are required to ensure we have enough of you transported to assemble at the respective location.
Bill
Louis Cypher
01.04.05, 07:00 AM
This is like reverse deja vu this dicussion, I posted something simillar about using entanglement to create a safer internet and people atoumatically assumed I was talking about teleportation. My idea was, if we allready use light to transfer info why not use entangled photons to distribute information between computers, at first you would have dedicated Intranets but eventually if everyone uses a 'modem' that uses entanglement then information would be much safer and much less easy to tamper with using the 3 qbit method of error checking 3 entangled photons entangled with 3 and then compare the last 3 entangled photons with the original photons with the original and solve the differences a qbit method of parity.
I asked why people are thinking of scrapping electronic equipment for quantum instead of meliding the two together; If that's the case could not a computer use entanglement as a bus the CPU using the quantum only to transfer info and if so could we entangle two computers then hundreds then millions and create an entangled network?
I know wild ideas but can someone discuss them? :smile:
Whitestar
01.12.05, 09:09 PM
I think you are getting hungup on the idea of disassembled into energy. Let me point out the idea of pure energy is non-sense. Energy always has a manifistation, be it mass energy, energy of motion, binding energy, ... So when someone says something is converted into energy, it is ambigious as to what that means. We are already completely energy, no conversion neccessary. So when a character in Star Trek says the transporter disassembles them into energy, they really must mean they are converted to another form of energy. Most theorist believe information is never destroyed. So no matter what form of energy you convert the person to, nothing is lost provided you have sufficient technology to convert them back again.
No. Tunnelling will always be a statistics game. However, there are several ways you can cheat at the statistics game. One way is quantum entangling, to increase the number of candidates for tunneling. Given enough candidates, surely one will tunnel when and where you want it. The second way is bending space-time. If the object tunneling is in a reference frame where time passes much more quickly, then it is more likely it will tunnel within a specific time frame for your reference frame.
Consider I could make an exact copy of you. Meaning I duplicated all the chemicals in your body, and put them in the proper spacial positions so the duplicate would be so exact as to think he was you. Well this person is just a duplicate. So whatever I do with him, won't effect you. Unless, lets say I quantum entangle all the particles making up the duplicate with all the particles making up you. Now, instead of having a duplicate I have two potential you. Which one is you? Well even you can't know that. So now transporter with a 50% chance of success. Chances are one of you will endup where I wanted to transport you. So after the tunnelling, I disentagle the the particles making the version who didn't transport the duplicate, which gets destroyed in the processes, and the one who did tunnel the original.
Of course, doing the with a whole person is absurd as I described, but instead it could be done molecule by molecule with however many copies of each molecule are required to ensure we have enough of you transported to assemble at the respective location.
Bill
You're correct about pure energy. There is no such thing. What I meant was that the transporter in Star Trek converts crew members into energy that is akin to plasma.
In regards to tunneling remaining a statistics game, well you're correct as long as you stick with the standard model of quantum mechnanics. As I said earlier, the scatter matrix theory shows that some particle interactions resulted in the creation of ghost particles that had negative possibility and would in theory allow you to alert the possibilities of certain events, these ghost particles also show up in certain models of supergravity and strings theory.
While physicists hate such particles (if they exist) and a method were to be discovered on how to make them on demand, then quantum events such as quantum tunneling could be shaped or made to occur on demand. Quantum entanglement also show that some method must exist to control the collaspe of the quantum wave function. Several physicists such as Born and John Cramser had come up with models of Quantum mechanics where the possiblity or randomness is eliminated. Quantum events are controlled by a pilot wave that allow the communication between particle FTL. This is called transactional interpration of quantum mechanics.
The problem is that two entangled particle share a super space (mathematical space called a spinor) that allow them to be connected no matter whatever distant they are moved, so in a way localilty is already violated. So if we can tap this mathematical super space, then we could in essence control particles no matter what the distant and the statistical nature of quantum mechanics would then be shown to be an illusion created by our inablitily to view the higher reality of quantum mechanics.
In essence, the whole issue of using Quantum tunneling depends on the nature of the universe. Does it allow ghost particles? Can we control the collaspe of quantum wave function? And what is the ultimate nature of higher reality of quantum mechanics? We would need to reach beyond the present standard model.