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Lubos Motl
Dec27-04, 07:05 PM
<jabberwocky><div class="vbmenu_control"><a href="jabberwocky:;" onClick="newWindow=window.open('','usenetCode','toolbar=no, location=no,scrollbars=yes,resizable=yes,status=no ,width=650,height=400'); newWindow.document.write('<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Usenet ASCII</TITLE></HEAD><BODY topmargin=0 leftmargin=0 BGCOLOR=#F1F1F1><table border=0 width=625><td bgcolor=midnightblue><font color=#F1F1F1>This Usenet message\'s original ASCII form: </font></td></tr><tr><td width=449><br><br><font face=courier><UL><PRE>Let me offer a text from my blog, attempting to provoke a discussion.\n\n=================================== ===================================\nhttp://motls.blogspot.com/2004/12/theories-are-increasingly-theoretical.html\n================================ ======================================\n\nThis text follows my discussions with Nima Arkani-Hamed and David Goss.\n\nSome people don\'t like the fact that the arguments in string theory are\nincreasingly theoretical in nature, and that our theories seem to give us\nless exactly calculable sharp predictions that are verified\nexperimentally.\n\nHowever: it\'s not just string theory: the whole particle physics has been\nbecoming increasingly theoretical and string theory just continues in the\nsame direction. What do I mean?\n\nQED, Electroweak theory, QCD: increasing groups, decreasing accuracy\n\nThe peak of the old-fashioned quantitative predictivity of very particular\nfacts in physics was QED which stands for Quantum Electrodynamics. You\nknow that people could have calculated its predictions already 50 years\nago, including the quantum loop corrections, even though they did not\nquite understand why their methods were working (The Renormalization\nGroup), and the most precise predictions - like the anomalous magnetic\nmoment of the electron - have been successfully tested with the accuracy\nof 13 decimal places!\n\nThen the physicists found the electroweak force that naturally predicted\nthe neutral currents, W bosons, the Z boson, and so forth. It is also a\nrelatively very predictive theory (Glashow, Salam, Weinberg) although its\npredictions were never tested as exactly as for QED. Nevertheless, all the\ncross sections and decay rates are measured rather precisely, the\nelectroweak scattering is "clean".\n\nAnother step: QCD\n\nThen you go to QCD which is now an accepted and "Nobelized" part of our\ntheoretical canon. QCD, in some sense, confirmed the things people\n"guessed" by other means, and one might criticize it using some very\nsimilar words as those often applied to string theory by its critics.\n\nYou know, QCD is claimed to be a theory of the strong force, but it talks\nabout the gluons, quarks, and especially their three colors, three\nconcepts that were never directly seen; and according to QCD no one will\never see either of them. Also, no one has been able to calculate the\nproperties of the proton, neutron, and nuclei - which used to be thought\nto be the objects from the strong interaction - from this theory too well.\nThe actual calculations often rely on some properties of the quark and\ngluon distribution functions, and the critics might say that these\nfunctions have never been really derived from QCD. Even if one accepts the\nexistence of quarks, they were not really invented by QCD: Gell-Mann\nreceived a Nobel prize for quarks in 1969, five years before QCD was\nproposed. The new quark flavors, such as the c-quark found in the J/psi\nparticle, were naturally predicted by the electroweak theory (the GIM\nmechanism from 1970), not by QCD. In this respect, QCD seems to have had\nno "striking" new predictions. So why do we say that QCD is a good theory\nof the strong interaction?\n\nThe low-energy properties of the hadrons have not been calculated\naccurately enough simply because QCD is a pretty difficult machine to\ncalculate with at low energies - but this difficulty is a fact of Nature.\nIn the same way, the vacuum structure in string theory is also rather\ncomplicated, which also seems to be a fact of Nature. At high energies,\nthe quarks are almost free (due to asymptotic freedom, which is really\nwhat our friends got their 2004 Nobel prize for). If the quarks are free,\nperturbation theory is great and one can easily and precisely calculate\nthe high-energy events. But for the effects important for the nuclear\nphysics, the interaction is strong - more or less by definition. QCD is a\nstrongly coupled theory at longer distances. The perturbation theory\nbreaks down and the nonlinear equations of QCD are just very difficult -\nsome progress can be obtained numerically using lattices and some other\ntools (the AdS/CFT correspondence has become the most powerful new tool).\n\nIn this sense, I believe that one could use nearly the same criticism not\nonly against string theory, but also QCD itself. However I feel that it\'s\nnot hard to realize that in the QCD case, it would be unreasonable. Not\nonly because of the Nobel prize!\n\nSo what does QCD predict that makes us sure that it\'s right? It predicts\nthe jets in the high energy collissions - "dressed" quarks and gluons. But\npeople qualitatively knew about these things experimentally already before\nQCD, so it was not a real prediction. They also knew about the\norganization of strongly interacting particles into families (with\ndifferent composition of quarks, depending on the particular member of the\nfamily - i.e. of the multiplet). So this was not a "real" prediction\neither. QCD was constructed to agree with the scaling laws - it was an\ninput and one of Gross\'s motivations - but it did not predict much\nafterwards, as long as one talks about some completely new, visible\neffects.\n\nThe advantage of QCD is claimed to be beauty - it is a nice SU(3)\nYang-Mills theory - and the pure QCD has no dimensionless parameters - the\nsame virtue as string theory: the original dimensionless coupling is\nconverted into a dimensionful scale by the dimensional transmutation.\nYang-Mills theory seems to be the unique way how to obtain asymptotic\nfreedom (vanishing of interactions at very high energies) from a quantum\nfield theory.\n\nDavid Gross likes to say that a theory without dimensionless parameters\n(QCD) can now explain all the "anthropic" mysteries from nuclear physics.\nNima Arkani-Hamed correctly points out that it\'s not quite correct because\nthe various "coincidences" relating the masses of the nucleons etc. depend\non all these small parameters like the quark bare masses. Well, I am not\nterribly happy to admit that Nima\'s objection is fair because his\nobjection is a small argument in favor of the anthropic thinking.\nNevertheless I must admit that Nima is right because he is. ;-)\n\nThe success of QCD is that it is really the only theory that explains the\ndata that had been known already before QCD was found - and it\'s able to\nput these data into a coherent framework. And it is a very beautiful\ntheory - it has nice symmetries and no dimensionless parameters in its\n"pure" version. These things were enough for the authors of QCD to know\nthat it was correct as early as in 1975.\n\nWe\'re saying the very same things about string theory. String theory is\nreally the only theory that can agree with the existing facts about\nquantum field theory but also with physics of general relativity i.e. with\ngravity. Of course, there is a difference between QCD and string theory is\nthat QCD has given us some new predictions that were unavailable for the\nprevious rules to understand the strong interactions, and these\npredictions are tested at the 1% accuracy, while string theory is still\nwaiting for the right experiments that will eliminate its critics. Let me\nbe more specific: the 1% accuracy was only achieved in the 1990s, twenty\nyears after the fathers of QCD knew that QCD was correct.\n\nNevertheless, you see that the character of our theories is evolving in a\nparticular direction - even if we study the evolution within the Standard\nModel itself. String theory is just one more step in this progression; it\ncertainly implies no "qualitative" change in our understanding what\nphysics theories are good for. We\'re marching towards more strongly\ncoupled - and more difficult to calculate - theories that may look\n"richer" but that are also increasingly more constrained, and we are using\nincreasingly complex mathematics - and the observations about the\nuniqueness of the consistent solutions of our problems - as our arguments.\nIt is happening simply because the naive, simple math that can be easily\ncalculated and compared with the experiments was already calculated a long\ntime ago.\n\nAs our theories become more mathematical and abstract - which is a\nnecessary process, as I tried to explain - the number of the people who\nactually understand the logic behind these new steps decreases. Not too\nmany "ordinary" people understand relativity; quantum mechanics is even\nmore difficult for most physics fans. Quantum field theory requires a\nspecial training, among other things, and in the case of string theory it\nis simply true that a PhD degree from theoretical physics is not a\nsufficient condition to understand the inevitability of its claims. I\nagree with the critics of string theory that a theoretical physics PhD\nshould be enough to understand string theory, but my ideas how to achieve\nthis goal are very different from theirs. ;-)\n\nAs our theories are becoming more mathematical, we are simultaneously\nrevising the concepts dramatically and we are finding new connections\nbetween the previous concepts, and their limitations that looked\nimpossible previously. The latter was happening in every revolution of\nphysics, including the quantum revolution.\n\nSo I don\'t really understand what is it exactly that makes so many people\nfeel so uneasy about string theory and why. Of course, I understand why\npeople may be frustrated that the progress is slow, but it\'s harder to see\nhow can string theory be blamed for it. Where we\'re going - in the\nperspective of a decade or so - is arguably the right way, and all\nphilosophical properties and trends of this progress agree with what has\nbeen proved fruitful in the past and recently.\n\nMuch of the recent progress, including the construction of QCD, was about\npushing "reductionism" as far as we can. We could not be satisfied with a\nlist of 200 strongly interacting "elementary" particles and their messy\ninteractions; people eventually convinced themselves that the right\nelementary particles are quarks (and gluons), although the hadrons remain\na good description at low energies. In a similar fashion, we cannot be\nsatisfied with the list of the elementary particles of the Standard Model\nplus the graviton, whose interactions furthermore don\'t work at the loop\nlevel, and this is why we are happy to reduce these concepts further to\nthe level of strings (and their non-perturbative friends) - because this\nreduction seems possible which is itself a shocking, nontrivial fact.\nAgain, the previous language of low-energy effective theories remains good\nat long distances.\n\nString theory marvellously has all the desired qualitative features and\nthe quantitative power to explain everything we know about the real world,\nand we know that the unification of quantum field theories with gravity is\na very difficult task and a generic proposed theory usually solves nothing\nat all, while string theory seems to solve a lot. This is why we "know"\nthat string theory is probably correct, even though it may take decades or\neven centuries to convince the critics. But the situation is qualitatively\nanalogous to QCD. The difference is that string theory is even more\ndependent on theoretical arguments than QCD, and it works with much higher\nenergy scales. But there is no qualitative phase transition in the\ndefinition of physics!\n\nWe may be unhappy about the particular developments in the last 1 year or\nperhaps even 5 years or something like that. But every time I see what the\nalternatives could be, it reassures me that we are on the right track. The\nalternatives usually want to return science at least 40 years into the\npast, and perhaps to the 19th century.\n\nIt\'s hard to convince anyone about the analogy if he or she does not feel\nit this way, but let me try anyway. There are creationists who reject\nevolution. Let\'s call them the 1860 crackpots. There are people who reject\nspecial relativity, right? Let\'s call them the 1905 crackpots. Some of\nthese insist on the luminiferous aether (even though some of them may call\nit spin foam). Then there are people that reject general relativity, the\n1916 crackpots, and quantum mechanics, the 1926 crackpots. Then there are\nthinkers who reject the (divergent) loop diagrams and their\nregularization; let\'s call them the 1949 crackpots, and who reject quarks,\nwho are called the 1973 speculative colleagues.\n\nAs I go towards the present, physics of these topics becomes increasingly\ndifficult, requires higher education, expertise - and I think that\nsomething remotely similar exists in any other sufficiently complex field\nof science, including e.g. number theory, too. Proving the Fermat Last\nTheorem is a pretty fancy thing that requires some new technology, does\nnot it?\n\nThe people who reject our understanding collected in the last 20 years\nthat string theory is the only way to exceed the limitations (and repair\nthe divergent behavior) of quantum field theory and classical GR - and who\nreject hundreds of the particular more detailed insights about string\ntheory and quantum field theory that we\'ve made and we will never unlearn\n- are, of course, not quite as clear crackpots as the previous categories\nbecause they only failed to follow (or decided to deny) the last 20 years\nand the questions studied by string theory are still "work in progress".\nBut ignoring these insights still seems as a pretty bad starting point for\nmaking contributions to physics - or trying to direct physics - in 2004.\n\nWhat I find more obvious is that the people who want to ignore string\ntheory actually want to neglect some older, well-established insights as\nwell - the renormalization group, semiclassical gravity (of Hawking), and\nothers - perhaps even perturbation theory or the S-matrix as the important\nconcepts in quantum relativistic physics.\n\nOne may ask why I feel so sure that string theory is most likely on the\nright track. It is a combination of both aspects: the impressive power of\nstring theory demonstrated in many contexts, but also the naive picture of\nphysics that the proponents of "alternatives" want to advocate. One must\nalways choose some principles when he or she tries to go beyond the known\nrealm. But the non-stringy people in physics just generally choose\nprinciples that look very simple-minded and obsolete. It\'s pretty hard to\nexplain non-technically and exactly why I almost always feel so certain\nabout it. I understand why the people feel that my certainty looks like\n"religion" - it would also look like religion to me if I did not know most\nof the things I know, or if they were not organized in my brain the same\nway.\n\nAether, hidden variables: repeating the errors forever\n\nBut it\'s like if you remember some error that you did 15 years ago, and\nyou later understood perfectly why it was silly and how your viewpoint on\nthe problem was uninformed and narrow-minded and 19th-century-like (or\nperhaps it was not you, just some other people around). Today, you may\nunderstand that all your confusion 15 years ago was unjustified, and that\nthere exists a completely meaningful and rigorous answer to all your\nquestions you had - and these answers are often different than you\nthought. Also, you may realize today that you used to neglect a huge\namount of important knowledge - you were just too ignorant about too many\nthings - which invalidates all your previous reasoning.\n\nAnd suddenly, 15 years later, someone comes with the same or even more\nunlikely approach and claims that it is an important idea that is meant to\nrevolutionize physics.\n\nLike those loop quantum gravity people. Most of them probably don\'t know\nthat Maxwell did not write just his equations; he constructed a few\ndiscrete models of aether. George FitzGerald even constructed working\nmodels of such an aether that produced the transverse electromagnetic\nwaves! And this model really worked. Such problems involving gears and\nwheels were what the 19th century physics was about. All this aether,\nsomething discrete that fills the vacuum, was exactly the trash that\nEinstein had to throw away, and this non-trivial act was one of the main\nreasons why Einstein was such a revolutionary. Of course, Einstein could\nhave done it because he was standing on the shoulders of giants, including\nHendrik Lorentz.\n\nAnd then 100 years later someone comes and proposes a new model of aether,\na discrete substrate filling the vacuum. Now it should explain gravity\ninstead of electromagnetism. A difference is that the "modern" models,\nunlike FitzGerald\'s model, quite obviously do not work and cannot give you\nthe right physics. No 21st century FitzGerald will be able to construct a\nmechanical model of a spin foam that behaves like general relativity -\nbecause it does not behave this way. These models cannot agree with\nspecial relativity because of the very same reasons as the 19th century\naether. Another difference is that it is not 1860, but 2004. The progress\nin science was not so terribly non-linear after all - and it is going in\nsome direction. There are just too many people who want to revert science\nand return us to the trees. In many cases, one can easily decide that\ncertain progress would be "negative".\n\nIn physics, we have learned something, and it is impossible to "unlearn"\nmost of these insights. There is a lot of recent insights that will stay\nwith us even if string theory will be proved irrelevant for the\nexperiments. But let\'s not be too pessimistic. String theory agrees with\nall the basic (and often also with the non-basic) discoveries and contains\nall the methods of the previous successful theories - quantum field\ntheory, general relativity, gauge theories, chiral fermions organized into\nfamilies, Higgs mechanism, confinement, relations between them,\nRenormalization Group effects, non-perturbative physics, the S-matrix.\nIt\'s the only known theory different from the old, incomplete framework of\nquantum field theory that can do everything good that the old theories\nwere able to do as well.\n\nThe self-described "competitors" just don\'t care about the actual physics\n- I really mean primarily experimental physics. They don\'t really care\nwhether their theory has something new to say about QCD, general\nrelativity, black holes, particle spectrum, scattering amplitudes - the\nphysical phenomena that really exist. They don\'t even care whether their\ntheory is consistent with the older insights. They prefer to extend some\nobsolete and narrow-minded dogmas - such as "the world is discrete" or\n"the vacuum must be made of something" - dogmas that have really nothing\nto do with the discoveries physics made in the last 200 years. Dogmas that\nhave been more or less falsified. And that makes a difference.\n\nSome people want physics to become "postmodern" and allow hundreds of\ndifferent trends that revive various old theories of aether,\nLorentz-FitzGerald contractions, hidden variables, and many other wrong\nthings from physics of the past that our heroes had to struggle with for\nso long before they saw the new light.\n\nI would really prefer if theoretical physics were interrupted completely\nrather than becoming a "diverse" arena of all these pseudoscientists who\nare rejecting random principles we learned - as well as the majority of\nthe actual data - and who keep on constructing toy models with very\nlimited ability to agree with anything we actually observe: interrupted\nphysics can continue in the future once people become more reasonable and\ncreative. On the other hand, a return to the proto-science or even\npseudo-science would effectively convert the culture of theoretical\nphysicists into the culture of intellectual monkeys once again.\n\nThe string theorists know what they\'re doing and how their theory fits all\nsuccessful - and experimentally verified - previous insights about Nature;\nothers don\'t. Our civilization certainly does not have enough resources to\npay for all conceivable proto-theories that are comparably attractive as\nloop quantum gravity - simply because the space of such\nnot-terribly-serious ideas off the track is virtually infinite.\n\nConcerning string theory: don\'t get me wrong: I am far from being certain\nthat we will have great new successes in the next 2 years, for example.\nAnd it\'s not clear in advance what the LHC will see. I am not even sure\nwhether the number of string theorists is already too high or still too\nsmall. But most of my statements are based on a comparison of string\ntheory with the alternatives, and in this respect, my feeling is that\nthere is no rational justification at this point why the alternatives\nshould "grow".\n_________________________________________ _____________________________________\nE-mail: lumo@matfyz.cz fax: +1-617/496-0110 Web: http://lumo.matfyz.cz/\neFax: +1-801/454-1858 work: +1-617/384-9488 home: +1-617/868-4487 (call)\nWebs: http://schwinger.harvard.edu/~motl/ http://motls.blogspot.com/\n^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^\n\n</UL></PRE></font></td></tr></table></BODY><HTML>');"> <IMG SRC=/images/buttons/ip.gif BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER ALT="View this Usenet post in original ASCII form">&nbsp;&nbsp;View this Usenet post in original ASCII form </a></div><P></jabberwocky>Let me offer a text from my blog, attempting to provoke a discussion.

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http://motls.blogspot.com/2004/12/theories-are-increasingly-theoretical.html
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This text follows my discussions with Nima Arkani-Hamed and David Goss.

Some people don't like the fact that the arguments in string theory are
increasingly theoretical in nature, and that our theories seem to give us
less exactly calculable sharp predictions that are verified
experimentally.

However: it's not just string theory: the whole particle physics has been
becoming increasingly theoretical and string theory just continues in the
same direction. What do I mean?

QED, Electroweak theory, QCD: increasing groups, decreasing accuracy

The peak of the old-fashioned quantitative predictivity of very particular
facts in physics was QED which stands for Quantum Electrodynamics. You
know that people could have calculated its predictions already 50 years
ago, including the quantum loop corrections, even though they did not
quite understand why their methods were working (The Renormalization
Group), and the most precise predictions - like the anomalous magnetic
moment of the electron - have been successfully tested with the accuracy
of 13 decimal places!

Then the physicists found the electroweak force that naturally predicted
the neutral currents, W bosons, the Z boson, and so forth. It is also a
relatively very predictive theory (Glashow, Salam, Weinberg) although its
predictions were never tested as exactly as for QED. Nevertheless, all the
cross sections and decay rates are measured rather precisely, the
electroweak scattering is "clean".

Another step: QCD

Then you go to QCD which is now an accepted and "Nobelized" part of our
theoretical canon. QCD, in some sense, confirmed the things people
"guessed" by other means, and one might criticize it using some very
similar words as those often applied to string theory by its critics.

You know, QCD is claimed to be a theory of the strong force, but it talks
about the gluons, quarks, and especially their three colors, three
concepts that were never directly seen; and according to QCD no one will
ever see either of them. Also, no one has been able to calculate the
properties of the proton, neutron, and nuclei - which used to be thought
to be the objects from the strong interaction - from this theory too well.
The actual calculations often rely on some properties of the quark and
gluon distribution functions, and the critics might say that these
functions have never been really derived from QCD. Even if one accepts the
existence of quarks, they were not really invented by QCD: Gell-Mann
received a Nobel prize for quarks in 1969, five years before QCD was
proposed. The new quark flavors, such as the c-quark found in the J/\psi
particle, were naturally predicted by the electroweak theory (the GIM
mechanism from 1970), not by QCD. In this respect, QCD seems to have had
no "striking" new predictions. So why do we say that QCD is a good theory
of the strong interaction?

The low-energy properties of the hadrons have not been calculated
accurately enough simply because QCD is a pretty difficult machine to
calculate with at low energies - but this difficulty is a fact of Nature.
In the same way, the vacuum structure in string theory is also rather
complicated, which also seems to be a fact of Nature. At high energies,
the quarks are almost free (due to asymptotic freedom, which is really
what our friends got their 2004 Nobel prize for). If the quarks are free,
perturbation theory is great and one can easily and precisely calculate
the high-energy events. But for the effects important for the nuclear
physics, the interaction is strong - more or less by definition. QCD is a
strongly coupled theory at longer distances. The perturbation theory
breaks down and the nonlinear equations of QCD are just very difficult -
some progress can be obtained numerically using lattices and some other
tools (the AdS/CFT correspondence has become the most powerful new tool).

In this sense, I believe that one could use nearly the same criticism not
only against string theory, but also QCD itself. However I feel that it's
not hard to realize that in the QCD case, it would be unreasonable. Not
only because of the Nobel prize!

So what does QCD predict that makes us sure that it's right? It predicts
the jets in the high energy collissions - "dressed" quarks and gluons. But
people qualitatively knew about these things experimentally already before
QCD, so it was not a real prediction. They also knew about the
organization of strongly interacting particles into families (with
different composition of quarks, depending on the particular member of the
family - i.e. of the multiplet). So this was not a "real" prediction
either. QCD was constructed to agree with the scaling laws - it was an
input and one of Gross's motivations - but it did not predict much
afterwards, as long as one talks about some completely new, visible
effects.

The advantage of QCD is claimed to be beauty - it is a nice SU(3)
Yang-Mills theory - and the pure QCD has no dimensionless parameters - the
same virtue as string theory: the original dimensionless coupling is
converted into a dimensionful scale by the dimensional transmutation.
Yang-Mills theory seems to be the unique way how to obtain asymptotic
freedom (vanishing of interactions at very high energies) from a quantum
field theory.

David Gross likes to say that a theory without dimensionless parameters
(QCD) can now explain all the "anthropic" mysteries from nuclear physics.
Nima Arkani-Hamed correctly points out that it's not quite correct because
the various "coincidences" relating the masses of the nucleons etc. depend
on all these small parameters like the quark bare masses. Well, I am not
terribly happy to admit that Nima's objection is fair because his
objection is a small argument in favor of the anthropic thinking.
Nevertheless I must admit that Nima is right because he is. ;-)

The success of QCD is that it is really the only theory that explains the
data that had been known already before QCD was found - and it's able to
put these data into a coherent framework. And it is a very beautiful
theory - it has nice symmetries and no dimensionless parameters in its
"pure" version. These things were enough for the authors of QCD to know
that it was correct as early as in 1975.

We're saying the very same things about string theory. String theory is
really the only theory that can agree with the existing facts about
quantum field theory but also with physics of general relativity i.e. with
gravity. Of course, there is a difference between QCD and string theory is
that QCD has given us some new predictions that were unavailable for the
previous rules to understand the strong interactions, and these
predictions are tested at the 1% accuracy, while string theory is still
waiting for the right experiments that will eliminate its critics. Let me
be more specific: the 1% accuracy was only achieved in the 1990s, twenty
years after the fathers of QCD knew that QCD was correct.

Nevertheless, you see that the character of our theories is evolving in a
particular direction - even if we study the evolution within the Standard
Model itself. String theory is just one more step in this progression; it
certainly implies no "qualitative" change in our understanding what
physics theories are good for. We're marching towards more strongly
coupled - and more difficult to calculate - theories that may look
"richer" but that are also increasingly more constrained, and we are using
increasingly complex mathematics - and the observations about the
uniqueness of the consistent solutions of our problems - as our arguments.
It is happening simply because the naive, simple math that can be easily
calculated and compared with the experiments was already calculated a long
time ago.

As our theories become more mathematical and abstract - which is a
necessary process, as I tried to explain - the number of the people who
actually understand the logic behind these new steps decreases. Not too
many "ordinary" people understand relativity; quantum mechanics is even
more difficult for most physics fans. Quantum field theory requires a
special training, among other things, and in the case of string theory it
is simply true that a PhD degree from theoretical physics is not a
sufficient condition to understand the inevitability of its claims. I
agree with the critics of string theory that a theoretical physics PhD
should be enough to understand string theory, but my ideas how to achieve
this goal are very different from theirs. ;-)

As our theories are becoming more mathematical, we are simultaneously
revising the concepts dramatically and we are finding new connections
between the previous concepts, and their limitations that looked
impossible previously. The latter was happening in every revolution of
physics, including the quantum revolution.

So I don't really understand what is it exactly that makes so many people
feel so uneasy about string theory and why. Of course, I understand why
people may be frustrated that the progress is slow, but it's harder to see
how can string theory be blamed for it. Where we're going - in the
perspective of a decade or so - is arguably the right way, and all
philosophical properties and trends of this progress agree with what has
been proved fruitful in the past and recently.

Much of the recent progress, including the construction of QCD, was about
pushing "reductionism" as far as we can. We could not be satisfied with a
list of 200 strongly interacting "elementary" particles and their messy
interactions; people eventually convinced themselves that the right
elementary particles are quarks (and gluons), although the hadrons remain
a good description at low energies. In a similar fashion, we cannot be
satisfied with the list of the elementary particles of the Standard Model
plus the graviton, whose interactions furthermore don't work at the loop
level, and this is why we are happy to reduce these concepts further to
the level of strings (and their non-perturbative friends) - because this
reduction seems possible which is itself a shocking, nontrivial fact.
Again, the previous language of low-energy effective theories remains good
at long distances.

String theory marvellously has all the desired qualitative features and
the quantitative power to explain everything we know about the real world,
and we know that the unification of quantum field theories with gravity is
a very difficult task and a generic proposed theory usually solves nothing
at all, while string theory seems to solve a lot. This is why we "know"
that string theory is probably correct, even though it may take decades or
even centuries to convince the critics. But the situation is qualitatively
analogous to QCD. The difference is that string theory is even more
dependent on theoretical arguments than QCD, and it works with much higher
energy scales. But there is no qualitative phase transition in the
definition of physics!

We may be unhappy about the particular developments in the last 1 year or
perhaps even 5 years or something like that. But every time I see what the
alternatives could be, it reassures me that we are on the right track. The
alternatives usually want to return science at least 40 years into the
past, and perhaps to the 19th century.

It's hard to convince anyone about the analogy if he or she does not feel
it this way, but let me try anyway. There are creationists who reject
evolution. Let's call them the 1860 crackpots. There are people who reject
special relativity, right? Let's call them the 1905 crackpots. Some of
these insist on the luminiferous aether (even though some of them may call
it spin foam). Then there are people that reject general relativity, the
1916 crackpots, and quantum mechanics, the 1926 crackpots. Then there are
thinkers who reject the (divergent) loop diagrams and their
regularization; let's call them the 1949 crackpots, and who reject quarks,
who are called the 1973 speculative colleagues.

As I go towards the present, physics of these topics becomes increasingly
difficult, requires higher education, expertise - and I think that
something remotely similar exists in any other sufficiently complex field
of science, including e.g. number theory, too. Proving the Fermat Last
Theorem is a pretty fancy thing that requires some new technology, does
not it?

The people who reject our understanding collected in the last 20 years
that string theory is the only way to exceed the limitations (and repair
the divergent behavior) of quantum field theory and classical GR - and who
reject hundreds of the particular more detailed insights about string
theory and quantum field theory that we've made and we will never unlearn
- are, of course, not quite as clear crackpots as the previous categories
because they only failed to follow (or decided to deny) the last 20 years
and the questions studied by string theory are still "work in progress".
But ignoring these insights still seems as a pretty bad starting point for
making contributions to physics - or trying to direct physics - in 2004.

What I find more obvious is that the people who want to ignore string
theory actually want to neglect some older, well-established insights as
well - the renormalization group, semiclassical gravity (of Hawking), and
others - perhaps even perturbation theory or the S-matrix as the important
concepts in quantum relativistic physics.

One may ask why I feel so sure that string theory is most likely on the
right track. It is a combination of both aspects: the impressive power of
string theory demonstrated in many contexts, but also the naive picture of
physics that the proponents of "alternatives" want to advocate. One must
always choose some principles when he or she tries to go beyond the known
realm. But the non-stringy people in physics just generally choose
principles that look very simple-minded and obsolete. It's pretty hard to
explain non-technically and exactly why I almost always feel so certain
about it. I understand why the people feel that my certainty looks like
"religion" - it would also look like religion to me if I did not know most
of the things I know, or if they were not organized in my brain the same
way.

Aether, hidden variables: repeating the errors forever

But it's like if you remember some error that you did 15 years ago, and
you later understood perfectly why it was silly and how your viewpoint on
the problem was uninformed and narrow-minded and 19th-century-like (or
perhaps it was not you, just some other people around). Today, you may
understand that all your confusion 15 years ago was unjustified, and that
there exists a completely meaningful and rigorous answer to all your
questions you had - and these answers are often different than you
thought. Also, you may realize today that you used to neglect a huge
amount of important knowledge - you were just too ignorant about too many
things - which invalidates all your previous reasoning.

And suddenly, 15 years later, someone comes with the same or even more
unlikely approach and claims that it is an important idea that is meant to
revolutionize physics.

Like those loop quantum gravity people. Most of them probably don't know
that Maxwell did not write just his equations; he constructed a few
discrete models of aether. George FitzGerald even constructed working
models of such an aether that produced the transverse electromagnetic
waves! And this model really worked. Such problems involving gears and
wheels were what the 19th century physics was about. All this aether,
something discrete that fills the vacuum, was exactly the trash that
Einstein had to throw away, and this non-trivial act was one of the main
reasons why Einstein was such a revolutionary. Of course, Einstein could
have done it because he was standing on the shoulders of giants, including
Hendrik Lorentz.

And then 100 years later someone comes and proposes a new model of aether,
a discrete substrate filling the vacuum. Now it should explain gravity
instead of electromagnetism. A difference is that the "modern" models,
unlike FitzGerald's model, quite obviously do not work and cannot give you
the right physics. No 21st century FitzGerald will be able to construct a
mechanical model of a spin foam that behaves like general relativity -
because it does not behave this way. These models cannot agree with
special relativity because of the very same reasons as the 19th century
aether. Another difference is that it is not 1860, but 2004. The progress
in science was not so terribly non-linear after all - and it is going in
some direction. There are just too many people who want to revert science
and return us to the trees. In many cases, one can easily decide that
certain progress would be "negative".

In physics, we have learned something, and it is impossible to "unlearn"
most of these insights. There is a lot of recent insights that will stay
with us even if string theory will be proved irrelevant for the
experiments. But let's not be too pessimistic. String theory agrees with
all the basic (and often also with the non-basic) discoveries and contains
all the methods of the previous successful theories - quantum field
theory, general relativity, gauge theories, chiral fermions organized into
families, Higgs mechanism, confinement, relations between them,
Renormalization Group effects, non-perturbative physics, the S-matrix.
It's the only known theory different from the old, incomplete framework of
quantum field theory that can do everything good that the old theories
were able to do as well.

The self-described "competitors" just don't care about the actual physics
- I really mean primarily experimental physics. They don't really care
whether their theory has something new to say about QCD, general
relativity, black holes, particle spectrum, scattering amplitudes - the
physical phenomena that really exist. They don't even care whether their
theory is consistent with the older insights. They prefer to extend some
obsolete and narrow-minded dogmas - such as "the world is discrete" or
"the vacuum must be made of something" - dogmas that have really nothing
to do with the discoveries physics made in the last 200 years. Dogmas that
have been more or less falsified. And that makes a difference.

Some people want physics to become "postmodern" and allow hundreds of
different trends that revive various old theories of aether,
Lorentz-FitzGerald contractions, hidden variables, and many other wrong
things from physics of the past that our heroes had to struggle with for
so long before they saw the new light.

I would really prefer if theoretical physics were interrupted completely
rather than becoming a "diverse" arena of all these pseudoscientists who
are rejecting random principles we learned - as well as the majority of
the actual data - and who keep on constructing toy models with very
limited ability to agree with anything we actually observe: interrupted
physics can continue in the future once people become more reasonable and
creative. On the other hand, a return to the proto-science or even
pseudo-science would effectively convert the culture of theoretical
physicists into the culture of intellectual monkeys once again.

The string theorists know what they're doing and how their theory fits all
successful - and experimentally verified - previous insights about Nature;
others don't. Our civilization certainly does not have enough resources to
pay for all conceivable proto-theories that are comparably attractive as
loop quantum gravity - simply because the space of such
not-terribly-serious ideas off the track is virtually infinite.

Concerning string theory: don't get me wrong: I am far from being certain
that we will have great new successes in the next 2 years, for example.
And it's not clear in advance what the LHC will see. I am not even sure
whether the number of string theorists is already too high or still too
small. But most of my statements are based on a comparison of string
theory with the alternatives, and in this respect, my feeling is that
there is no rational justification at this point why the alternatives
should "grow".
__{_______________________________________________ _____________________________}
E-mail: lumo@matfyz.cz fax: +1-617/496-0110 Web: http://lumo.matfyz.cz/
eFax: +1-801/454-1858 work: +1-617/384-9488 home: +1-617/868-4487 (call)
Webs: http://schwinger.harvard.edu/~motl/ http://motls.blogspot.com/
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

News Admin
Dec29-04, 08:50 AM
<jabberwocky><div class="vbmenu_control"><a href="jabberwocky:;" onClick="newWindow=window.open('','usenetCode','toolbar=no, location=no,scrollbars=yes,resizable=yes,status=no ,width=650,height=400'); newWindow.document.write('<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Usenet ASCII</TITLE></HEAD><BODY topmargin=0 leftmargin=0 BGCOLOR=#F1F1F1><table border=0 width=625><td bgcolor=midnightblue><font color=#F1F1F1>This Usenet message\'s original ASCII form: </font></td></tr><tr><td width=449><br><br><font face=courier><UL><PRE>Very interesting Lubos, and despite being one of your 1949 crackpots I agree\nwith an awful lot of what you have said in this post, particularly in regard\nto QCD & I am glad that I am not the only one prepared to go public about\nits shortcomings.\n\nWhat is missing, unfortunately, is a sense of urgency in bringing the work\nof you and your string theory colleagues in contact with reality. If the\nmajority of theoretical particle physics research is going to continue as\nthough it was a branch of pure mathematics, then expect it to be funded\naccordingly, and expect the far fewer string theorists to sit in the\nmathematics department instead. And expect that experiments like the LHC to\neventually be starved of funding due to lack of interest from the\ntheoretical community.\n\n[Moderator\'s note: Well, I agree, but our experimental friends will have\nto help us. The experiments will be starving if they don\'t show any new\ninteresting physics. Of course it\'s not purely matter of the\nexperimenters\' abilities - it also depends on mother Nature and Her\njokes. Happy New Year 2005, LM]\n\n</UL></PRE></font></td></tr></table></BODY><HTML>');"> <IMG SRC=/images/buttons/ip.gif BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER ALT="View this Usenet post in original ASCII form">&nbsp;&nbsp;View this Usenet post in original ASCII form </a></div><P></jabberwocky>Very interesting Lubos, and despite being one of your 1949 crackpots I agree
with an awful lot of what you have said in this post, particularly in regard
to QCD & I am glad that I am not the only one prepared to go public about
its shortcomings.

What is missing, unfortunately, is a sense of urgency in bringing the work
of you and your string theory colleagues in contact with reality. If the
majority of theoretical particle physics research is going to continue as
though it was a branch of pure mathematics, then expect it to be funded
accordingly, and expect the far fewer string theorists to sit in the
mathematics department instead. And expect that experiments like the LHC to
eventually be starved of funding due to lack of interest from the
theoretical community.

[Moderator's note: Well, I agree, but our experimental friends will have
to help us. The experiments will be starving if they don't show any new
interesting physics. Of course it's not purely matter of the
experimenters' abilities - it also depends on mother Nature and Her
jokes. Happy New Year 2005, LM]

Lubos Motl
Dec29-04, 09:07 AM
<jabberwocky><div class="vbmenu_control"><a href="jabberwocky:;" onClick="newWindow=window.open('','usenetCode','toolbar=no, location=no,scrollbars=yes,resizable=yes,status=no ,width=650,height=400'); newWindow.document.write('<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Usenet ASCII</TITLE></HEAD><BODY topmargin=0 leftmargin=0 BGCOLOR=#F1F1F1><table border=0 width=625><td bgcolor=midnightblue><font color=#F1F1F1>This Usenet message\'s original ASCII form: </font></td></tr><tr><td width=449><br><br><font face=courier><UL><PRE>On Wed, 29 Dec 2004, News Admin wrote:\n\n&gt; ... particularly in regard to QCD & I am glad that I am not the only\n&gt; one prepared to go public about its shortcomings.\n\nLet me add a trivial comment: I am happy that someone finally tends to\nagree with this "excursion to philosophy and history of science" of mine -\nthe thesis that the direction of research in theoretical physics is\ntowards higher energies, but also more unifying theories that are harder\nto connect with experiments and rely more on theoretical arguments - and\nthat this process definitely did not start with string theory and that\nthere is no qualitative change going on here.\n\nOn the other hand, our interpretation of the similarities is very\ndifferent, is not it? You would probably accept the position of a critic\nof both QCD and string theory. As you know, it\'s not my case. ;-)\n\nQCD is beautiful, and it is also a "toy model" of how a theory of\neverything should look like.\n\n1. QCD, because of its asymptotic freedom, works at arbitrarily high\nenergy scales. It has no Landau pole, and because of these features it is\na completely consistent theory, even nonperturbatively.\n\n2. QCD also has no dimensionless continuous parameters - something that we\nrequire from any "truly final" theory.\n\nBoth of these properties are satisfied by string theory as we understand\nit today, despite the incompleteness of our understanding. Well, unlike\nstring theory, QCD is clearly *not* a theory of everything in this real\nworld: it describes neither gravity nor electroweak interactions and the\nelementary particles\' properties (bare masses). But it\'s a good example\nanyway.\n\nIt would be difficult for me to choose whether the electroweak theory is\nmore "thrilling" theoretically than QCD, or vice versa. The electroweak\ntheory shows that massive spin 1 particles must arise from a\nspontaneously broken gauge symmetry. The electroweak theory has chiral\ncouplings and is able to violate C,P, and in the presence of 3 quark\nfamilies, also the CP symmetry, which is kind of sexy (and also seen in\nstring theory).\n\nOn the other hand, QCD is the only theory with non-Abelian gauge symmetry\nat very low energies. It\'s the theory for which asymptotic freedom is\nnecessary and related to confinement which is able to "hide" the colors,\nwhich is also sexy. The dimensional transmutation is also cool, and QCD is\nable to have no dimensionless parameters whatsoever, which is very far\nfrom being the case in the electroweak theory that requires at least two\ncouplings g,g\' (defined at the "vev" electroweak scale).\n\nAt any rate, both QCD as well as the electroweak theory are true facts\nabout low energy physics, and the phenomena from both components of the\nStandard Model are naturally included in string theory.\n_________________________________________ _____________________________________\nE-mail: lumo@matfyz.cz fax: +1-617/496-0110 Web: http://lumo.matfyz.cz/\neFax: +1-801/454-1858 work: +1-617/384-9488 home: +1-617/868-4487 (call)\nWebs: http://schwinger.harvard.edu/~motl/ http://motls.blogspot.com/\n^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^\n\n</UL></PRE></font></td></tr></table></BODY><HTML>');"> <IMG SRC=/images/buttons/ip.gif BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER ALT="View this Usenet post in original ASCII form">&nbsp;&nbsp;View this Usenet post in original ASCII form </a></div><P></jabberwocky>On Wed, 29 Dec 2004, News Admin wrote:

> ... particularly in regard to QCD & I am glad that I am not the only
> one prepared to go public about its shortcomings.

Let me add a trivial comment: I am happy that someone finally tends to
agree with this "excursion to philosophy and history of science" of mine -
the thesis that the direction of research in theoretical physics is
towards higher energies, but also more unifying theories that are harder
to connect with experiments and rely more on theoretical arguments - and
that this process definitely did not start with string theory and that
there is no qualitative change going on here.

On the other hand, our interpretation of the similarities is very
different, is not it? You would probably accept the position of a critic
of both QCD and string theory. As you know, it's not my case. ;-)

QCD is beautiful, and it is also a "toy model" of how a theory of
everything should look like.

1. QCD, because of its asymptotic freedom, works at arbitrarily high
energy scales. It has no Landau pole, and because of these features it is
a completely consistent theory, even nonperturbatively.

2. QCD also has no dimensionless continuous parameters - something that we
require from any "truly final" theory.

Both of these properties are satisfied by string theory as we understand
it today, despite the incompleteness of our understanding. Well, unlike
string theory, QCD is clearly *not* a theory of everything in this real
world: it describes neither gravity nor electroweak interactions and the
elementary particles' properties (bare masses). But it's a good example
anyway.

It would be difficult for me to choose whether the electroweak theory is
more "thrilling" theoretically than QCD, or vice versa. The electroweak
theory shows that massive spin 1 particles must arise from a
spontaneously broken gauge symmetry. The electroweak theory has chiral
couplings and is able to violate C,P, and in the presence of 3 quark
families, also the CP symmetry, which is kind of sexy (and also seen in
string theory).

On the other hand, QCD is the only theory with non-Abelian gauge symmetry
at very low energies. It's the theory for which asymptotic freedom is
necessary and related to confinement which is able to "hide" the colors,
which is also sexy. The dimensional transmutation is also cool, and QCD is
able to have no dimensionless parameters whatsoever, which is very far
from being the case in the electroweak theory that requires at least two
couplings g,g' (defined at the "vev" electroweak scale).

At any rate, both QCD as well as the electroweak theory are true facts
about low energy physics, and the phenomena from both components of the
Standard Model are naturally included in string theory.
__{_______________________________________________ _____________________________}
E-mail: lumo@matfyz.cz fax: +1-617/496-0110 Web: http://lumo.matfyz.cz/
eFax: +1-801/454-1858 work: +1-617/384-9488 home: +1-617/868-4487 (call)
Webs: http://schwinger.harvard.edu/~motl/ http://motls.blogspot.com/
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

News Admin
Dec29-04, 01:00 PM
<jabberwocky><div class="vbmenu_control"><a href="jabberwocky:;" onClick="newWindow=window.open('','usenetCode','toolbar=no, location=no,scrollbars=yes,resizable=yes,status=no ,width=650,height=400'); newWindow.document.write('<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Usenet ASCII</TITLE></HEAD><BODY topmargin=0 leftmargin=0 BGCOLOR=#F1F1F1><table border=0 width=625><td bgcolor=midnightblue><font color=#F1F1F1>This Usenet message\'s original ASCII form: </font></td></tr><tr><td width=449><br><br><font face=courier><UL><PRE>BTW Lubos - I did not intend to be anonymous. This might be a problem with\nmy news server: "News Admin" is in fact me (Chris Oakley,\ncoakley@cgoakley.demon.co.uk).\n\n.... And a Happy New Year to you from me and all the others idiotic enough\nnot to accept Superstring theory.\n\n[Moderator\'s note: Wow, thank you. Happy New Year to you, too. Did you\norganize a Christmas party of string haters, so that you have greetings\nfrom all? :-) LM]\n\n\n</UL></PRE></font></td></tr></table></BODY><HTML>');"> <IMG SRC=/images/buttons/ip.gif BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER ALT="View this Usenet post in original ASCII form">&nbsp;&nbsp;View this Usenet post in original ASCII form </a></div><P></jabberwocky>BTW Lubos - I did not intend to be anonymous. This might be a problem with
my news server: "News Admin" is in fact me (Chris Oakley,
coakley@cgoakley.demon.co.uk).

.... And a Happy New Year to you from me and all the others idiotic enough
not to accept Superstring theory.

[Moderator's note: Wow, thank you. Happy New Year to you, too. Did you
organize a Christmas party of string haters, so that you have greetings
from all? :-) LM]

Melroy
Dec29-04, 01:36 PM
<jabberwocky><div class="vbmenu_control"><a href="jabberwocky:;" onClick="newWindow=window.open('','usenetCode','toolbar=no, location=no,scrollbars=yes,resizable=yes,status=no ,width=650,height=400'); newWindow.document.write('<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Usenet ASCII</TITLE></HEAD><BODY topmargin=0 leftmargin=0 BGCOLOR=#F1F1F1><table border=0 width=625><td bgcolor=midnightblue><font color=#F1F1F1>This Usenet message\'s original ASCII form: </font></td></tr><tr><td width=449><br><br><font face=courier><UL><PRE>Thanks for a stimulating post. just one question. Classical general\nrelativity has not been tested to the same level of accuracy as QED, QCD\nor weak interactions. There are some hints(albeit not very strong) that\nmaybe classical GR is not the correct classical theory of gravity such as\nthe dark matter problem, dark energy problem, Pioneer 11 anamolous\nacceleration, and the apsidal motion of DI Hercules. M\n\nLet\'s say that in the future we obtain convincing evidence that GR is not\nthe correct classical theory of gravity. Would that invalidate string\ntheory?\n\nMelroy\n\n[Moderator\'s note: I think it\'s a very good question. I believe that in\nthe infinite Minkowski spacetime, a violation of GR would also falsify\nstring theory. On the other hand, in the cosmological setup, I can\nactually imagine that string theory and holography have their ways to\ninduce corrections as drastical as what you need to explain the Pioneer\nanomaly and perhaps some other anomalies, and maybe even to justify a\nMOND-like alternative to dark matter. See the texts below: LM]\n\nhttp://motls.blogspot.com/2004/11/pioneer-anomaly.html\nhttp://motls.blogspot.com/2004/10/mond-and-holography.html\n\n</UL></PRE></font></td></tr></table></BODY><HTML>');"> <IMG SRC=/images/buttons/ip.gif BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER ALT="View this Usenet post in original ASCII form">&nbsp;&nbsp;View this Usenet post in original ASCII form </a></div><P></jabberwocky>Thanks for a stimulating post. just one question. Classical general
relativity has not been tested to the same level of accuracy as QED, QCD
or weak interactions. There are some hints(albeit not very strong) that
maybe classical GR is not the correct classical theory of gravity such as
the dark matter problem, dark energy problem, Pioneer 11 anamolous
acceleration, and the apsidal motion of DI Hercules. M

Let's say that in the future we obtain convincing evidence that GR is not
the correct classical theory of gravity. Would that invalidate string
theory?

Melroy

[Moderator's note: I think it's a very good question. I believe that in
the infinite Minkowski spacetime, a violation of GR would also falsify
string theory. On the other hand, in the cosmological setup, I can
actually imagine that string theory and holography have their ways to
induce corrections as drastical as what you need to explain the Pioneer
anomaly and perhaps some other anomalies, and maybe even to justify a
MOND-like alternative to dark matter. See the texts below: LM]

http://motls.blogspot.com/2004/11/pioneer-anomaly.html
http://motls.blogspot.com/2004/10/mond-and-holography.html

richard miller
Jan5-05, 04:51 PM
<jabberwocky><div class="vbmenu_control"><a href="jabberwocky:;" onClick="newWindow=window.open('','usenetCode','toolbar=no, location=no,scrollbars=yes,resizable=yes,status=no ,width=650,height=400'); newWindow.document.write('<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Usenet ASCII</TITLE></HEAD><BODY topmargin=0 leftmargin=0 BGCOLOR=#F1F1F1><table border=0 width=625><td bgcolor=midnightblue><font color=#F1F1F1>This Usenet message\'s original ASCII form: </font></td></tr><tr><td width=449><br><br><font face=courier><UL><PRE>"Lubos Motl" &lt;motl@feynman.harvard.edu&gt; wrote in message news:Pine.LNX.4.31.0412272001490.11307-100000@feynman.harvard.edu...\n\n&gt; Let me offer a text from my blog, attempting to provoke a discussion.\n\nThat was a nice article, and it obviously came from the heart.\n\nMy concern (thought), which may probably stem from too much time spent in\nindustry, is this: when I did Field Theory it was always about Lagrangians.\nGuess the right one and the laws of dynamics always pop out. The variational\nconcept was just pure brilliance, i.e. if we get the right Lagragian we have\nit all sewn up, Hamilton etc. And it all rested upon continuously\ndifferentiable functions, the meat and two veg of secondary mathematics.\n\nWhen I fisrt prized open some smart-*** person\'s PhD thesis on the \'2nd\nQuantised String\', it immediately launched into action principles,\ncontinuous functions and the like, all was good.\n\nI find this reliance upon the Mathematics of the continuous awkward in a\nquantised world. We quantise everything but the field equations we use.I\nwork in the \'Z domain\'. It is all dicsrete. Once you put in a microprocessor\nit is all discrete. Z this, Z that.\n\n\'I\'ll finally cut to the point\n\nWhy do the top echelons of Scientific Research keep with continuous\nphenomena? What real justification do we have for usage of real-valued\nfunctions of a continuous variable?\n\nI\'m not obsessed with dicsrete equations in so far as I may well accept\nnature as infinitely divisible, but I do think Physics has a case to answer?\n\nThanks for reading this far\n\nRichard Miller\n\n</UL></PRE></font></td></tr></table></BODY><HTML>');"> <IMG SRC=/images/buttons/ip.gif BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER ALT="View this Usenet post in original ASCII form">&nbsp;&nbsp;View this Usenet post in original ASCII form </a></div><P></jabberwocky>"Lubos Motl" <motl@feynman.harvard.edu> wrote in message news:Pine.LNX.4.31.0412272001490.11307-100000@feynman.harvard.edu...

> Let me offer a text from my blog, attempting to provoke a discussion.

That was a nice article, and it obviously came from the heart.

My concern (thought), which may probably stem from too much time spent in
industry, is this: when I did Field Theory it was always about Lagrangians.
Guess the right one and the laws of dynamics always pop out. The variational
concept was just pure brilliance, i.e. if we get the right Lagragian we have
it all sewn up, Hamilton etc. And it all rested upon continuously
differentiable functions, the meat and two veg of secondary mathematics.

When I fisrt prized open some smart-*** person's PhD thesis on the '2nd
Quantised String', it immediately launched into action principles,
continuous functions and the like, all was good.

I find this reliance upon the Mathematics of the continuous awkward in a
quantised world. We quantise everything but the field equations we use.I
work in the 'Z domain'. It is all dicsrete. Once you put in a microprocessor
it is all discrete. Z this, Z that.

'I'll finally cut to the point

Why do the top echelons of Scientific Research keep with continuous
phenomena? What real justification do we have for usage of real-valued
functions of a continuous variable?

I'm not obsessed with dicsrete equations in so far as I may well accept
nature as infinitely divisible, but I do think Physics has a case to answer?

Thanks for reading this far

Richard Miller

jcgonsowski@yahoo.com
Jan6-05, 05:08 AM
<jabberwocky><div class="vbmenu_control"><a href="jabberwocky:;" onClick="newWindow=window.open('','usenetCode','toolbar=no, location=no,scrollbars=yes,resizable=yes,status=no ,width=650,height=400'); newWindow.document.write('<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Usenet ASCII</TITLE></HEAD><BODY topmargin=0 leftmargin=0 BGCOLOR=#F1F1F1><table border=0 width=625><td bgcolor=midnightblue><font color=#F1F1F1>This Usenet message\'s original ASCII form: </font></td></tr><tr><td width=449><br><br><font face=courier><UL><PRE>Melroy wrote:\n&gt; Thanks for a stimulating post. just one question. Classical general\n&gt; relativity has not been tested to the same level of accuracy as QED,\nQCD\n&gt; or weak interactions. There are some hints(albeit not very strong)\nthat\n&gt; maybe classical GR is not the correct classical theory of gravity\nsuch as\n&gt; the dark matter problem, dark energy problem, Pioneer 11 anamolous\n&gt; acceleration, and the apsidal motion of DI Hercules. M\n&gt;\n&gt; Let\'s say that in the future we obtain convincing evidence that GR is\nnot\n&gt; the correct classical theory of gravity. Would that invalidate string\n&gt; theory?\n&gt;\n&gt; Melroy\n&gt;\n&gt; [Moderator\'s note: I think it\'s a very good question. I believe that\nin\n&gt; the infinite Minkowski spacetime, a violation of GR would also\nfalsify\n&gt; string theory. On the other hand, in the cosmological setup, I can\n&gt; actually imagine that string theory and holography have their ways\nto\n&gt; induce corrections as drastical as what you need to explain the\nPioneer\n&gt; anomaly and perhaps some other anomalies, and maybe even to justify\na\n&gt; MOND-like alternative to dark matter. See the texts below: LM]\n&gt;\n&gt; http://motls.blogspot.com/2004/11/pioneer-anomaly.html\n&gt; http://motls.blogspot.com/2004/10/mond-and-holography.html\n\nBelow is an interesting description for the Minkowski vs. cosmological\ncases from Tony Smith\'s website.\n\nAccording to gr-qc/9809061 by R. Aldrovandi and J. G. Peireira:\n\n"... By the process of Inonu-Wigner group contraction with R -&gt; oo\n....[where R ]... the de Sitter pseudo-radius ... , both de Sitter\ngroups ... with metric ... (-1,+1,+1,+1,-1) ...[or]... (-1,+1,+1,+1,+1)\n.... are reduced to the Poincare group P, and both de Sitter spacetimes\nare reduced to the Minkowski space M. As the de Sitter scalar curvature\ngoes to zero in this limit, we can say that M is a spacetime\ngravitationally related to a vanishing cosmological constant.\nOn the other hand, in a similar fashion but taking the limit R -&gt; 0,\nboth de Sitter groups are contracted to the group Q, formed by a\nsemi-direct product between Lorentz and special conformal\ntransformation groups, and both de Sitter spaces are reduced to the\ncone-space N, which is a space with vanishing Riemann and Ricci\ncurvature tensors. As the scalar curvature of the de Sitter space goes\nto infinity in this limit, we can say that N is a spacetime\ngravitationally related to an infinite cosmological constant.\n\nIf the fundamental spacetime symmetry of the laws of Physics is that\ngiven by the de Sitter instead of the Poincare group, the P-symmetry of\nthe weak cosmological-constant limit and the Q-symmetry of the strong\ncosmological-constant limit can be considered as limiting cases of the\nfundamental symmetry. ...\n\n.... N, whose geometry is gravitationally related to an infinite\ncosmological constant, is a 4-dimensional cone-space in which ds = 0,\nand whose group of motion is Q. Analogously to the Minkowski case, N is\nalso a homogeneous space, but now under the kinematical group Q, that\nis, N = Q/L. In other words, the point-set of N is the point-set of the\nspecial conformal transformations. Furthermore, the manifold of Q is a\nprincipal bundle P(Q/L,L), with Q/L = N as base space and L as the\ntypical fiber. The kinematical group Q, like the Poincare group, has\nthe Lorentz group L as the subgroup accounting for both the isotropy\nand the equivalence of inertial frames in this space. However, the\nspecial conformal transformations introduce a new kind of homogeneity.\nInstead of ordinary translations, all the points of N are equivalent\nthrough special conformal transformations. ...\n\n.... Minkowski and the cone-space can be considered as dual to each\nother, in the sense that their geometries are determined respectively\nby a vanishing and an infinite cosmological constants. The same can be\nsaid of their kinematical group of motions: P is associated to a\nvanishing cosmological constant and Q to an infinite cosmological\nconstant.\n\nThe dual transformation connecting these two geometries is the\nspacetime inversion x^u -&gt; x^u / sigma^2 . Under such a transformation,\nthe Poincare group P is transformed into the group Q, and the Minkowski\nspace M becomes the cone-space N. The points at infinity of M are\nconcentrated in the vertex of the cone-space N, and those on the\nlight-cone of M becomes the infinity of N. It is interesting to notice\nthat, despite presenting an infinite scalar curvature, the concepts of\nspace isotropy and equivalence between inertial frames in the\ncone-space N are those of special relativity. The difference lies in\nthe concept of uniformity as it is the special conformal\ntransformations, and not ordinary translations, which act transitively\non N. ...\n\n.... in the light of the recent supernovae results ... favoring possibly\nquite large values for the cosmological constant, the above results may\nacquire a further relevance to Cosmology ...".\n\nDark Stuff in empty space naturally has the full Conformal Degrees of\nFreedom of Cosmological Constant /\\ &gt; 0 Dark Energy, so that the local\nbackground spacetime is a conformal cone-space; but\nDark Stuff in the presence of the gravitational field of ordinary\nmatter (such as in galactic haloes) becomes MOND Cold Dark Matter,\nloses full Conformal Degrees of Freedom, and is reduced to the degrees\nof freedom of the Poincare group with Minkowski spacetime as local\nbackground.\n\n\n</UL></PRE></font></td></tr></table></BODY><HTML>');"> <IMG SRC=/images/buttons/ip.gif BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER ALT="View this Usenet post in original ASCII form">&nbsp;&nbsp;View this Usenet post in original ASCII form </a></div><P></jabberwocky>Melroy wrote:
> Thanks for a stimulating post. just one question. Classical general
> relativity has not been tested to the same level of accuracy as QED,
QCD
> or weak interactions. There are some hints(albeit not very strong)
that
> maybe classical GR is not the correct classical theory of gravity
such as
> the dark matter problem, dark energy problem, Pioneer 11 anamolous
> acceleration, and the apsidal motion of DI Hercules. M
>
> Let's say that in the future we obtain convincing evidence that GR is
not
> the correct classical theory of gravity. Would that invalidate string
> theory?
>
> Melroy
>
> [Moderator's note: I think it's a very good question. I believe that
in
> the infinite Minkowski spacetime, a violation of GR would also
falsify
> string theory. On the other hand, in the cosmological setup, I can
> actually imagine that string theory and holography have their ways
to
> induce corrections as drastical as what you need to explain the
Pioneer
> anomaly and perhaps some other anomalies, and maybe even to justify
a
> MOND-like alternative to dark matter. See the texts below: LM]
>
> http://motls.blogspot.com/2004/11/pioneer-anomaly.html
> http://motls.blogspot.com/2004/10/mond-and-holography.html

Below is an interesting description for the Minkowski vs. cosmological
cases from Tony Smith's website.

According to http://www.arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/9809061 by R. Aldrovandi and J. G. Peireira:

"... By the process of Inonu-Wigner group contraction with R -> oo
....[where R ]... the de Sitter pseudo-radius ... , both de Sitter
groups ... with metric ... (-1,+1,+1,+1,-1) ...[or]... (-1,+1,+1,+1,+1)
.... are reduced to the Poincare group P, and both de Sitter spacetimes
are reduced to the Minkowski space M. As the de Sitter scalar curvature
goes to zero in this limit, we can say that M is a spacetime
gravitationally related to a vanishing cosmological constant.
On the other hand, in a similar fashion but taking the limit R -> 0,
both de Sitter groups are contracted to the group Q, formed by a
semi-direct product between Lorentz and special conformal
transformation groups, and both de Sitter spaces are reduced to the
cone-space N, which is a space with vanishing Riemann and Ricci
curvature tensors. As the scalar curvature of the de Sitter space goes
to infinity in this limit, we can say that N is a spacetime
gravitationally related to an infinite cosmological constant.

If the fundamental spacetime symmetry of the laws of Physics is that
given by the de Sitter instead of the Poincare group, the P-symmetry of
the weak cosmological-constant limit and the Q-symmetry of the strong
cosmological-constant limit can be considered as limiting cases of the
fundamental symmetry. ...

.... N, whose geometry is gravitationally related to an infinite
cosmological constant, is a 4-dimensional cone-space in which ds = 0,
and whose group of motion is Q. Analogously to the Minkowski case, N is
also a homogeneous space, but now under the kinematical group Q, that
is, N = Q/L. In other words, the point-set of N is the point-set of the
special conformal transformations. Furthermore, the manifold of Q is a
principal bundle P(Q/L,L), with Q/L = N as base space and L as the
typical fiber. The kinematical group Q, like the Poincare group, has
the Lorentz group L as the subgroup accounting for both the isotropy
and the equivalence of inertial frames in this space. However, the
special conformal transformations introduce a new kind of homogeneity.
Instead of ordinary translations, all the points of N are equivalent
through special conformal transformations. ...

.... Minkowski and the cone-space can be considered as dual to each
other, in the sense that their geometries are determined respectively
by a vanishing and an infinite cosmological constants. The same can be
said of their kinematical group of motions: P is associated to a
vanishing cosmological constant and Q to an infinite cosmological
constant.

The dual transformation connecting these two geometries is the
spacetime inversion x^u -> x^u / \sigma^2 . Under such a transformation,
the Poincare group P is transformed into the group Q, and the Minkowski
space M becomes the cone-space N. The points at infinity of M are
concentrated in the vertex of the cone-space N, and those on the
light-cone of M becomes the infinity of N. It is interesting to notice
that, despite presenting an infinite scalar curvature, the concepts of
space isotropy and equivalence between inertial frames in the
cone-space N are those of special relativity. The difference lies in
the concept of uniformity as it is the special conformal
transformations, and not ordinary translations, which act transitively
on N. ...

.... in the light of the recent supernovae results ... favoring possibly
quite large values for the cosmological constant, the above results may
acquire a further relevance to Cosmology ...".

Dark Stuff in empty space naturally has the full Conformal Degrees of
Freedom of Cosmological Constant /\ > Dark Energy, so that the local
background spacetime is a conformal cone-space; but
Dark Stuff in the presence of the gravitational field of ordinary
matter (such as in galactic haloes) becomes MOND Cold Dark Matter,
loses full Conformal Degrees of Freedom, and is reduced to the degrees
of freedom of the Poincare group with Minkowski spacetime as local
background.

Kea
Jan18-05, 03:22 AM
[QUOTE=Lubos Motl] .....It's the only known theory different from the old, incomplete framework of quantum field theory that can do everything good that the old theories were able to do as well........[QUOTE]

Hi Lubos

I agree with a lot of what you say. However, you appear not to
understand spin foam models at all.....but I won't waste time
defending them.

Let me ask you some questions:

1. What rigorous understanding do we have of confinement besides

Quark State Confinement as a Consequence of the Extension of the
Bose-Fermi Recoupling to SU(3) Colour; W. P. Joyce
http://arxiv.org/abs/hep-th/0306256

which fits into the topos quantisation picture (you can think of
Strings as categorified particles, like Urs Schreiber, if you like
- but this is NOT String Theory)

2. What is your physical interpretation of T-duality?

3. If twisted K-theory can't capture D-brane charges, what can? By
the way: category theory has an answer.

Regards
Kea

Urs Schreiber
Jan20-05, 12:22 PM
<jabberwocky><div class="vbmenu_control"><a href="jabberwocky:;" onClick="newWindow=window.open('','usenetCode','toolbar=no, location=no,scrollbars=yes,resizable=yes,status=no ,width=650,height=400'); newWindow.document.write('<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Usenet ASCII</TITLE></HEAD><BODY topmargin=0 leftmargin=0 BGCOLOR=#F1F1F1><table border=0 width=625><td bgcolor=midnightblue><font color=#F1F1F1>This Usenet message\'s original ASCII form: </font></td></tr><tr><td width=449><br><br><font face=courier><UL><PRE>On Tue, 18 Jan 2005, Kea wrote:\n\n&gt; 2. What is your physical interpretation of T-duality?\n\n\nIt exchanges momentum with winding. Are you looking for anything else?\n\n\n&gt; 3. If twisted K-theory can\'t capture D-brane charges,\n\n\nCan\'t it??\n\n\n&gt; By the way: category theory has an answer.\n\n\nSure, set theory has an answer, too. :-)\n\n\n\n</UL></PRE></font></td></tr></table></BODY><HTML>');"> <IMG SRC=/images/buttons/ip.gif BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER ALT="View this Usenet post in original ASCII form">&nbsp;&nbsp;View this Usenet post in original ASCII form </a></div><P></jabberwocky>On Tue, 18 Jan 2005, Kea wrote:

> 2. What is your physical interpretation of T-duality?


It exchanges momentum with winding. Are you looking for anything else?


> 3. If twisted K-theory can't capture D-brane charges,


Can't it??


> By the way: category theory has an answer.


Sure, set theory has an answer, too. :-)

Kea
Feb1-05, 03:50 AM
>>What is your physical interpretation of T-duality?
>It exchanges momentum with winding.

What? This is a derived result in the maths of strings. I do not
believe this is physics. It refers to naive internal degrees of
freedom. Even if one wants to believe the maths is physics, the
picture has to be more sophisticated than this.....see for instance

reference:
A MAD DAY’S WORK: FROM GROTHENDIECK TO CONNES AND
KONTSEVICH THE EVOLUTION OF CONCEPTS OF SPACE AND SYMMETRY, P.
Cartier, Bull. Amer. Math. Soc. 38, 4 (2001) 389-408
http://modular.fas.harvard.edu/sga/from_grothendieck.pdf

Urs Schreiber
Feb1-05, 06:13 AM
<jabberwocky><div class="vbmenu_control"><a href="jabberwocky:;" onClick="newWindow=window.open('','usenetCode','toolbar=no, location=no,scrollbars=yes,resizable=yes,status=no ,width=650,height=400'); newWindow.document.write('<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Usenet ASCII</TITLE></HEAD><BODY topmargin=0 leftmargin=0 BGCOLOR=#F1F1F1><table border=0 width=625><td bgcolor=midnightblue><font color=#F1F1F1>This Usenet message\'s original ASCII form: </font></td></tr><tr><td width=449><br><br><font face=courier><UL><PRE>Kea wrote:\n\n&gt;&gt;&gt;What is your physical interpretation of T-duality?\n\nUrs wrote:\n\n&gt;&gt;It exchanges momentum with winding.\n\nKea replies:\n\n&gt; What? This is a derived result in the maths of strings. I do not\n&gt; believe this is physics. It refers to naive internal degrees of\n&gt; freedom. Even if one wants to believe the maths is physics, the\n&gt; picture has to be more sophisticated than this\n\n\nTo me there is the physical interpretation of something and the\nsophisticated description. You asked for the physical interpretation and it\nis pretty obvious. But I agree that it would be nice to have a more\nsophisticated description and it does exist and harmonizes with the more\nlowbrow description.\n\n\n......see for instance\n&gt;\n&gt; reference:\n&gt; A MAD DAY\'S WORK: FROM GROTHENDIECK TO CONNES AND\n&gt; KONTSEVICH THE EVOLUTION OF CONCEPTS OF SPACE AND SYMMETRY, P.\n&gt; Cartier, Bull. Amer. Math. Soc. 38, 4 (2001) 389-408\n&gt; http://modular.fas.harvard.edu/sga/from_grothendieck.pdf\n\n\nFrom skimming that text I don\'t see that the author mentiones it, but there\nis in fact a very nice algebraic way to formulate the exchange of momentum\nand winding and hence T-duality as an operation of a certain automorphism on\nan NCG-like description of stringy spacetime. This is discussed for instance\nin\n\nhep-th/9511061\nhep-th/9707202\nhep-th/0401175 .\n\nIn fact, this is part of a long-term idea that lives in the back of my mind\nand will hopefully one day evolve into a sufficiently coherent form:\n\nStart with N=2 supersymmetric quantum mechanics. The sophisticated\nformulation of that is an N=2 spectral triple in the language of Freohlich\nand using the deformation by Witten\n\n(A, H, e^-W d e^W)\n\nwhere A is some algebra of functions over some configuration space H, d is\nthe deRham operator on the exterior bundle over M, H is the Hilbert space of\nsufficiently well behaved sections of that bundle equipped with the Hodge\nscalar product and W is an operator on that Hilbert space. Hermitean W\nencode background fields that the superparticle propagates in (notably\nscalar potentials, gravity, torsion), anti-hermitean W encode gauge and\nsymmetry transformations on these background fields.\n\n\nNow categorify this.\n\n\nThe configuration space M becomes a 2-space B, which we can think of as the\nspace of string configurations in M.\n\nThe exterior bundle over M becomes a 2-bundle over B.\n\nThis 2-bundle has a 2-sheaf of 2-sections. The operators H-&gt;H become\nfunctors between such 2-sections. The arrow part of these must involve a\nnilpotent graded operation. If we restrict to the reparametrization\ninvariant case this gives rise to the operator\n\nd + i K-&gt;\n\non the exterior bundle over loop space, where K-&gt; is the inner product with\nthe loop space vector field that generates reparametrizations.\n\nThis operator is known to be the same as G + i\\bar G, where G is the\nsupercharge of the RNS superstring.\n\nThe deformations e^W similarly categorify to functors between 2-sections.\nOne can find for all massless NSNS background fields and D-brane\nconfigurations the corresponding e^W which turn the deRham Dirac operator\ninto that describing superstrings in these backgrounds. Anti-hermitean W\nencode gauge and duality transformations of the background, in particular\nT-duality.\n\nI have large parts of that sketch worked out. But there are many details to\nbe made more precise.\n\n\n</UL></PRE></font></td></tr></table></BODY><HTML>');"> <IMG SRC=/images/buttons/ip.gif BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER ALT="View this Usenet post in original ASCII form">&nbsp;&nbsp;View this Usenet post in original ASCII form </a></div><P></jabberwocky>Kea wrote:

>>>What is your physical interpretation of T-duality?

Urs wrote:

>>It exchanges momentum with winding.

Kea replies:

> What? This is a derived result in the maths of strings. I do not
> believe this is physics. It refers to naive internal degrees of
> freedom. Even if one wants to believe the maths is physics, the
> picture has to be more sophisticated than this


To me there is the physical interpretation of something and the
sophisticated description. You asked for the physical interpretation and it
is pretty obvious. But I agree that it would be nice to have a more
sophisticated description and it does exist and harmonizes with the more
lowbrow description.


......see for instance
>
> reference:
> A MAD DAY'S WORK: FROM GROTHENDIECK TO CONNES AND
> KONTSEVICH THE EVOLUTION OF CONCEPTS OF SPACE AND SYMMETRY, P.
> Cartier, Bull. Amer. Math. Soc. 38, 4 (2001) 389-408
> http://modular.fas.harvard.edu/sga/from_grothendieck.pdf


From skimming that text I don't see that the author mentiones it, but there
is in fact a very nice algebraic way to formulate the exchange of momentum
and winding and hence T-duality as an operation of a certain automorphism on
an NCG-like description of stringy spacetime. This is discussed for instance
in

http://www.arxiv.org/abs/hep-th/9511061
http://www.arxiv.org/abs/hep-th/9707202
http://www.arxiv.org/abs/hep-th/0401175 .

In fact, this is part of a long-term idea that lives in the back of my mind
and will hopefully one day evolve into a sufficiently coherent form:

Start with N=2 supersymmetric quantum mechanics. The sophisticated
formulation of that is an N=2 spectral triple in the language of Freohlich
and using the deformation by Witten

(A, H, e^-W d e^W)

where A is some algebra of functions over some configuration space H, d is
the deRham operator on the exterior bundle over M, H is the Hilbert space of
sufficiently well behaved sections of that bundle equipped with the Hodge
scalar product and W is an operator on that Hilbert space. Hermitean W
encode background fields that the superparticle propagates in (notably
scalar potentials, gravity, torsion), anti-hermitean W encode gauge and
symmetry transformations on these background fields.


Now categorify this.


The configuration space M becomes a 2-space B, which we can think of as the
space of string configurations in M.

The exterior bundle over M becomes a 2-bundle over B.

This 2-bundle has a 2-sheaf of 2-sections. The operators H->H become
functors between such 2-sections. The arrow part of these must involve a
nilpotent graded operation. If we restrict to the reparametrization
invariant case this gives rise to the operator

d + i K->

on the exterior bundle over loop space, where K-> is the inner product with
the loop space vector field that generates reparametrizations.

This operator is known to be the same as G + i\bar G, where G is the
supercharge of the RNS superstring.

The deformations e^W similarly categorify to functors between 2-sections.
One can find for all massless NSNS background fields and D-brane
configurations the corresponding e^W which turn the deRham Dirac operator
into that describing superstrings in these backgrounds. Anti-hermitean W
encode gauge and duality transformations of the background, in particular
T-duality.

I have large parts of that sketch worked out. But there are many details to
be made more precise.

Kea
Feb3-05, 03:05 AM
Thank you for the references. I think you are one of few people thinking seriously about where String theory might be going.

But I am a little confused as to why you think we need to stick with String theoretic foundations. To my way of thinking N = 2 SUSY QM is not fundamental. Categorification isn't about categorifying bundle structures piece by piece. This is why (I think) Ross Street says one should look at stack theory and leave gerbes alone.

In particular, recall that the notion of point becomes a geometric morphism

\mathbf{Set} \rightarrow \mathbf{Sh}(M)

into the category of sheaves on a space M. This puts geometry on a purely axiomatic footing.

Urs Schreiber
Feb3-05, 04:36 AM
<jabberwocky><div class="vbmenu_control"><a href="jabberwocky:;" onClick="newWindow=window.open('','usenetCode','toolbar=no, location=no,scrollbars=yes,resizable=yes,status=no ,width=650,height=400'); newWindow.document.write('<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Usenet ASCII</TITLE></HEAD><BODY topmargin=0 leftmargin=0 BGCOLOR=#F1F1F1><table border=0 width=625><td bgcolor=midnightblue><font color=#F1F1F1>This Usenet message\'s original ASCII form: </font></td></tr><tr><td width=449><br><br><font face=courier><UL><PRE>On Thu, 3 Feb 2005, Kea wrote:\n\n\n&gt; But I am a little confused as to why you think we need to stick with\n&gt; String theoretic foundations. To my way of thinking N = 2\n&gt; SUSY QM is not fundamental.\n\n\nThis depends a little on tastes and points of perspective, but\nlet me make some comments on how amazingly fundamental N=2 SUSY QM is from\na certain point of view:\n\nTo start with, in the "ordinary" case it is pretty much the same as deRham\ntheory on a manifold M. M is the configuration point of the particle, the\nexterior bundle Omega(M) over M the corresponding superspace (every\nexterior bundle is an N=2 superspace), the supercharges are the deRham\noperators d, d^+, the Hilbert space H is that of suitable sections Gamma\nin the exterior bundle and the inner product on that space is the Hodge\ninner product\n\n&lt;a,b&gt; = int a /\\ * b\n\nextended in the obvious way from a,b in Omega^p(M) to a,b in Omega(M).\n\nOnce you consider any manifolds at all this is about as fundamental as it\ngets. See the beautiful work by Froehlich\n\nhep-th/9612205\nhep-th/9706132\n\nfor more.\n\nIn particular, there it is emphasized that the natural way to think about\nthis setup is as a certain spectral triple, namely (Gamma^0, H, d \\pm\nd^+).\n\nSo this let\'s us easily make the above yet more fundamental by decreeing\nthat with supersymmetric QM we want to mean in general just some spectral\ntriple (maybe not really any one but one having some basic properties,\nif you like).\n\nSo if you like the point of view of that Cartier paper that you mentioned\nthis should be close to your heart. I think it has good chances to be\nabout as fundamental as it gets.\n\nFroehlich in the last sections of the above mentioned papers makes some\nattempts to lift this setup to the superstring, but this remained\ntentative, as far as I am aware. A little more systematic attempt to do\nsomething similar was published by Chamseddine in hep-th/9701096,\nhep-th/9705153.\n\nAlejandro Rivero once pointed out to me that one reason these attempts\nwere not further developed was because the rise of the BFSS matrix model and\ninterest in noncommutative field theories and open strings in\nB-field backgrounds focused all stringy attention to the noncommutativity in\nNCG, forgetting about the "spectral".\n\nBe that as it may, after finding the results of hep-th/0401175 I fell in\nlove with the idea on looking at superstrings as susy QM on loop space.\nWith hindsight, that had to lead to the concept of categorification\neventually, which it did.\n\nUsing categories all over the place is enjoyable and useful, but\ncategorification is special.\n\nI guess the point is that once you realize that category theory is the\nlanguage in which god wrote math it becomes clear that at the heart of it\none is dealing with omega-categories.\n\nThe step from set theory to category theory consists of realizing that\npoints are not enough, but that morphisms are important. The step from\ncategory theory to 2-category theory replaces the points by morphisms once\nagain. Thinking this to the end the idea is that there are no points, but\njust morphisms between morphism. Realizing this step by step is called\n"categorification".\n\nPhew, now I am getting on-topic for sci.philosophy.blah-blah. :-)\n\nBut maybe it is entertaining to note that "morphisms between morphisms"\nrhymes with "worldsheets for worldsheets": It is well known that the string can\nbe thought of to be composed of strings itself:\n\nNucl Phys B293 (1987) 593\n\nand\n\nhep-th/9602049 .\n\nAnd hence these consist again of strings, and so on.\n\nAs far as I understand from what Lubos told me\n(http://golem.ph.utexas.edu/string/archives/000265.html#c000328)\nthis is at the heart of a big idea for a deeper understaning of M-theory:\nhep-th/0111068 .\n\nFor these reasons I feel that categorifying spectral triples to learn\nabout strings is reasonably fundamental. All results that have shown up in\nthis approach so far also suggest that it is not completely on a wrong\ntrack.\n\n\n&gt; Categorification isn\'t about categorifying\n&gt; bundle structures piece by piece.\n\n\nWell, yes, the "piece by piece" is a result of the insufficiency of the\nhuman brain. :-)\n\n\n&gt; This is why (I think) Ross Street\n&gt; says one should look at stack theory and leave gerbes alone.\n\n\nYou have to educate me here. Are you referring to stacks in the sense of\n"fibered categories with certain properties"? In that case I don\'t\nunderstand what tou mean because a gerbe is just a special case of a\nstack.\n\nAnd, by the way, a fibered category is just "half" the categorification of\na presheaf. 2-bundles know about string space, while gerbes do not. See\n\nhttp://groups.google.de/groups?selm=ctbmgs%24b8s%241%40news.ks.uiuc.edu .\n\n\n&gt; In particular, recall that the notion of -point- becomes a geometric\n&gt; morphism\n&gt;\n&gt; \\mathbf{Set} \\rightarrow \\mathbf{Sh}(M)\n&gt;\n&gt; into the category of sheaves on a space M. This puts\n&gt; geometry on a purely axiomatic footing.\n\n\n(For those following this, Kea here is referring to the discussion on p.\n400 on the paper by Cartier that he mentioned before.)\n\nI think this is *one* way to look at a point. Seems to me that there are\nmany other concepts that we could "identify" with points. For instance in\nNCG a point is a simple ideal in an algebra. Or is that secretly the same\nas this Grothedieck\'s conception?\n\n</UL></PRE></font></td></tr></table></BODY><HTML>');"> <IMG SRC=/images/buttons/ip.gif BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER ALT="View this Usenet post in original ASCII form">&nbsp;&nbsp;View this Usenet post in original ASCII form </a></div><P></jabberwocky>On Thu, 3 Feb 2005, Kea wrote:


> But I am a little confused as to why you think we need to stick with
> String theoretic foundations. To my way of thinking N = 2
> SUSY QM is not fundamental.


This depends a little on tastes and points of perspective, but
let me make some comments on how amazingly fundamental N=2 SUSY QM is from
a certain point of view:

To start with, in the "ordinary" case it is pretty much the same as deRham
theory on a manifold M. M is the configuration point of the particle, the
exterior bundle \Omega(M) over M the corresponding superspace (every
exterior bundle is an N=2 superspace), the supercharges are the deRham
operators d, d^+, the Hilbert space H is that of suitable sections \Gamma
in the exterior bundle and the inner product on that space is the Hodge
inner product

<a,b> = \int a /\ * b

extended in the obvious way from a,b in \Omega^p(M) to a,b in \Omega(M).

Once you consider any manifolds at all this is about as fundamental as it
gets. See the beautiful work by Froehlich

http://www.arxiv.org/abs/hep-th/9612205
http://www.arxiv.org/abs/hep-th/9706132

for more.

In particular, there it is emphasized that the natural way to think about
this setup is as a certain spectral triple, namely (\Gamma^0, H, d \pmd^+).

So this let's us easily make the above yet more fundamental by decreeing
that with supersymmetric QM we want to mean in general just some spectral
triple (maybe not really any one but one having some basic properties,
if you like).

So if you like the point of view of that Cartier paper that you mentioned
this should be close to your heart. I think it has good chances to be
about as fundamental as it gets.

Froehlich in the last sections of the above mentioned papers makes some
attempts to lift this setup to the superstring, but this remained
tentative, as far as I am aware. A little more systematic attempt to do
something similar was published by Chamseddine in http://www.arxiv.org/abs/hep-th/9701096,
http://www.arxiv.org/abs/hep-th/9705153.

Alejandro Rivero once pointed out to me that one reason these attempts
were not further developed was because the rise of the BFSS matrix model and
interest in noncommutative field theories and open strings in
B-field backgrounds focused all stringy attention to the noncommutativity in
NCG, forgetting about the "spectral".

Be that as it may, after finding the results of http://www.arxiv.org/abs/hep-th/0401175 I fell in
love with the idea on looking at superstrings as susy QM on loop space.
With hindsight, that had to lead to the concept of categorification
eventually, which it did.

Using categories all over the place is enjoyable and useful, but
categorification is special.

I guess the point is that once you realize that category theory is the
language in which god wrote math it becomes clear that at the heart of it
one is dealing with \omega-categories.

The step from set theory to category theory consists of realizing that
points are not enough, but that morphisms are important. The step from
category theory to 2-category theory replaces the points by morphisms once
again. Thinking this to the end the idea is that there are no points, but
just morphisms between morphism. Realizing this step by step is called
"categorification".

Phew, now I am getting on-topic for sci.philosophy.blah-blah. :-)

But maybe it is entertaining to note that "morphisms between morphisms"
rhymes with "worldsheets for worldsheets": It is well known that the string can
be thought of to be composed of strings itself:

Nucl Phys B293 (1987) 593

and

http://www.arxiv.org/abs/hep-th/9602049 .

And hence these consist again of strings, and so on.

As far as I understand from what Lubos told me
(http://golem.ph.utexas.edu/string/archives/000265.html#c000328)
this is at the heart of a big idea for a deeper understaning of M-theory:
http://www.arxiv.org/abs/hep-th/0111068 .

For these reasons I feel that categorifying spectral triples to learn
about strings is reasonably fundamental. All results that have shown up in
this approach so far also suggest that it is not completely on a wrong
track.


> Categorification isn't about categorifying
> bundle structures piece by piece.


Well, yes, the "piece by piece" is a result of the insufficiency of the
human brain. :-)


> This is why (I think) Ross Street
> says one should look at stack theory and leave gerbes alone.


You have to educate me here. Are you referring to stacks in the sense of
"fibered categories with certain properties"? In that case I don't
understand what tou mean because a gerbe is just a special case of a
stack.

And, by the way, a fibered category is just "half" the categorification of
a presheaf. 2-bundles know about string space, while gerbes do not. See

http://groups.google.de/groups?selm=ctbmgs%24b8s%241%40news.ks.uiuc.edu .


> In particular, recall that the notion of -point- becomes a geometric
> morphism
>
> \mathbf{Set} \rightarrow \mathbf{Sh}(M)
>
> into the category of sheaves on a space M. This puts
> geometry on a purely axiomatic footing.


(For those following this, Kea here is referring to the discussion on p.
400 on the paper by Cartier that he mentioned before.)

I think this is *one* way to look at a point. Seems to me that there are
many other concepts that we could "identify" with points. For instance in
NCG a point is a simple ideal in an algebra. Or is that secretly the same
as this Grothedieck's conception?

Kea
Feb9-05, 08:33 PM
I guess the point is that once you realize that category theory is the language in which god wrote math it becomes clear that at the heart of it one is dealing with omega-categories

Great! Do many String theorists think this way? I've quoted what
you said about category theory. It's on my door (a collection
point for interesting snippets).

>This is one way to look at a point.....

If you'll allow me to refer to Ross Street's lectures here: Let R be a commutative ring with unit. Spec(R) is the space of prime ideals in R. It turns out that Spec(R) is a sober space (every irreducible closed subset is the closure of a unique singleton). Sober spaces are completely recoverable from the category of elementary toposes.

For instance, when considering a Boolean algebra as a ring, Spec(R) is the Stone space of the ring. Stone is a very underrated historical figure. What are Stone spaces?

Recall that one takes the lattice structure \mathcal{O}(X) of open sets of a space X as the category underlying sheaves on X, which are contravariant. Such lattices have a 0 (the empty set) and 1 (the set X).

In the category of topological spaces a point is specified by a morphism from the one point space, which is an initial object. A sufficiently general type of distributive lattice with 0 and 1 is called a frame (see Mac Lane and Moerdijk). In the category of frames the initial object is the 2 point lattice (0,1) so one defines a 'point' of a generalised space to be a morphism into
this object (remember the contravariance). But by this definition a space might not have any points at all! A space is said to be 'geometric' if for any two objects of the lattice there exists a point (morphism) p such that p^{-1} distinguishes the objects.

Back to Stone. The category of sober spaces is equivalent to the category of generalised spaces which are 'geometric'. This may be viewed as a duality in which the two point space plays a special 'self-dual' role (it's called a schizophrenic object). Another example of these so-called Stone dualities is Pontrjagin duality, for which U(1) is the schizophrenic object.

So...what about NCG? Well, this is the question, isn't it? We need 2-toposes. This is my pet fundamental thing! To Ross Street a 2-topos involves 2-stacks, which are, first of all, pseudofunctors from a site C into Cat. The stack condition is a descent diagram, and the inclusion of Stack(C) into Ps(C^{\textrm{op}},Cat) is a nice biadjunction. Gerbes, as you say, are related to this.

But the lattice theory is more fundamental. The logic of a topos depends on it. Topos (1-stack) lattices are always distributive. Quantum lattices are not. But quantum lattices are well understood, and a proper understanding of 2-toposes means getting the lattice theory right. I guess this is what I've been trying to say!

Regards Kea

Urs Schreiber
Feb11-05, 09:21 PM
<jabberwocky><div class="vbmenu_control"><a href="jabberwocky:;" onClick="newWindow=window.open('','usenetCode','toolbar=no, location=no,scrollbars=yes,resizable=yes,status=no ,width=650,height=400'); newWindow.document.write('<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Usenet ASCII</TITLE></HEAD><BODY topmargin=0 leftmargin=0 BGCOLOR=#F1F1F1><table border=0 width=625><td bgcolor=midnightblue><font color=#F1F1F1>This Usenet message\'s original ASCII form: </font></td></tr><tr><td width=449><br><br><font face=courier><UL><PRE>On Wed, 9 Feb 2005, Kea wrote:\n\n&gt; Urs Schreiber Wrote: [Warning: text about category theory. LM]\n\nRight, this is getting off-topic. We have moved the discussion to\n\nhttp://golem.ph.utexas.edu/string/archives/000509.html\n\n</UL></PRE></font></td></tr></table></BODY><HTML>');"> <IMG SRC=/images/buttons/ip.gif BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER ALT="View this Usenet post in original ASCII form">&nbsp;&nbsp;View this Usenet post in original ASCII form </a></div><P></jabberwocky>On Wed, 9 Feb 2005, Kea wrote:

> Urs Schreiber Wrote: [Warning: text about category theory. LM]

Right, this is getting off-topic. We have moved the discussion to

http://golem.ph.utexas.edu/string/archives/000509.html