How Crucial Are Permutation and Combination for Mastering Probability?

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Homework Help Overview

The discussion revolves around the importance of permutations and combinations in mastering probability. The original poster presents several combinatorial problems and expresses confusion regarding the correct approaches and answers, highlighting perceived pitfalls in understanding these concepts.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory, Assumption checking, Conceptual clarification

Approaches and Questions Raised

  • The original poster attempts to solve various combinatorial problems but questions their understanding of the concepts involved. They explore whether mastery of permutations and combinations is essential for studying probability or if they can prioritize probability directly.

Discussion Status

Participants are engaging with the original poster's concerns, with some offering reassurance about the learning process. There is an acknowledgment of the challenges in counting problems, and guidance is provided regarding the foundational role of combinatorics in probability.

Contextual Notes

The original poster mentions specific problems and their corresponding answers, indicating a struggle with the concepts of permutations and combinations. They express uncertainty about the necessity of mastering these topics before advancing to probability.

Omid
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Consider these problems:
1. In how many ways can 7 boys be seated around a round table?
2. If seven beads of different colors are put on a ring how many different desighns can be made?
3. I have six books with identical black bindings, 8 with identical red bindings. In how many ways can I arrange them on a shelf so as to give the same apperance?
4. In how many ways can we choose a team of 5 from 10 boys?

Recently I've started to study probability, the books I'm reading have a chapter on permutation and combination before the one on probability.
Now the problem is that I think there are so many pitfalls in per & com problems.
For example in the first problem my answer was 7! but the book said that it's 7!/7.
In the second one I got 7!/7 (from what I learned from the first one) and the right answer is 7!/7*2. In the third one I even didn't get the quetion and in the forth one my answer was (10C5) but the correct one was (10C5)/2

I can figure it out in two ways:
1. That's all a matter of experience and after solving some problems, I will do better.

2. In the next years of my study there are some mathematics that after learning them all the problems of per&comb will seem easy to me.

Which one is the case?
And the important question for me is:
Is understanding all of them necessary for learning probability or I can loosen it up for now and get right into studying probability?
 
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Combinatorics,,, which is the math involved with counting... which is what you're studying right now, is very important in applications of many different fields.

Just so you know the probability of an outcome is equal the number of ways the desired outcome could happen divided by the number of all possible outcomes.
Therefore you must be able to count both of those outcomes, which is what your learning right now... so it is essential that you learn them in order to move on to probability

Don't get discouraged.. its natural to get bogged down by all these counting problems (some can really make your head swim!). You get better with practice! :biggrin:

These are the fundamentals of counting so there really isn't any other math that will make it easier. :frown:
 
Last edited:
Ok, so I must start posting jillions of problems to this forum; to get help from experts.
Thank you.
 
I will answer one of your question... which one you like? pick one...
 
The third one please.
 

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