pot?

[Peter Pan]

When I was in college, some of the most intriguing questions I was asked about physics were by uneducated kids who smoked…..well…..magic cigarettes. I was wondering if any of you had these same experiences. For some reason that stuff occasionally leads to really profound and interesting ideas and questions.

Does anybody have any clue if famous theorist admitted to getting high?

Pan

[Mattius_]

I havent ever gotten high, maybe im stupid for not getting high by drugs, but i get incredibly high on my own, i have a fire in my stomach sometimes that that makes me feel so amazing, i feel sometimes like i can do anything! oh how blessed i am.

I have heard of scientists using drugs, but i cant name any specific people.

[RageSk8]

I can't, but I am sure many have. Plenty of intellectuals have used and abused drugs. Freud was a coke addict, Levi-Strauss wrote an essay trying to figure out what type of drugs someone gave him in college, Foucault used a lot of... well... everything. As for me, I have done too much and too many different types of drugs, something I am not exactly proud of, but whatever.

[Integral]

In past years I occasionaly partook of the weed.

I even attempted to learn some physics from inside a cloud of smoke. What I found was that in the light of day the smoke induced grand revelations of the night before turned into, at best trivial facts, at worst they were reveled to be total nonsense.

I cannot recomend altered states of mind for deep learning of any subject. This is experiance speaking not just some anti-dope smoking old man spouting off.

As a matter of fact if, some non working evening, a bowl were to be passed my way, I would not hesitate to get some somke in my mind.

[Ivan Seeking]

Several classes of drugs off topic, but FYI,

Some years ago a friend of mine sent me his copy of the Berkeley Journal. If I have my story straight, and I think I do, inside was an interview with the guy that won the Nobel Prize "for his invention of the polymerase chain reaction (PCR) method". He came up with the idea while driving down Hwy 101 while on LSD. He said that something about the a road sign triggered the entire concept in a moment. He pulled over, parked on the shoulder of the road, and wrote down the basics on a napkin [or something similar].

I think it was this guy.
http://www.nobel.se/chemistry/laureates/1993/mullis-autobio.html

You can imagine the reaction.

A note to our younger members: Betting on LSD or any drug to help your career is to bet your life on a lottery ticket.

An LA Times story that mentions his drug use.
http://www.latimes.com/features/printedition/magazine/la-120201mullis.story

[zoobyshoe]

A heavy pot smoker I once met seemed to be unable to grasp the most basic and important of chemistry facts. I had to reach over and remove a lit cigarette from his hand when he pulled the fuel line off a motorcycle we were trying to get started, spilling gas all over the driveway.

One of the guys who lives in my building here did lots of acid in high school and in his twenties. Now he hears voices talking to him all the time. For years they tormented him with insults and commands to do embarrassing and pointless things. Now he's on a medication that has turned the abusive voices into friendly ones. He sleeps 16 hours a day, and hasn't done laundry for about three months now. He used to know some electronics but can't remember much of it anymore.

[Zantra]

I had a good friend who is(was) really smart. He smoked a lot of tweed. We used to play a lot of chess and he'd whip me badly. Then I asked him to play me one day not too long ago. I beat him without even putting forth an effort. He swears the pot didn't affect him, but he refuses to play chess with me anymore. I didn't practice to beat him either, since he's the only person I regularly played chess with. My skill hasn't improved. And so it seems, neither has his. Long term pot use does affect you. I don't have the physiological details of what it does handy, but I'm sure someone could fill that in. Plus, those who regularly use, tend occassionaly at least, migrate to other things that have more severe effects. I remember I once tried whip-its(don't ask, not contributing to anyone's cause if you don't already know). Then I found out what that actually does. needless to say it was my first and last time.

[Mr. Robin Parsons]

Originally posted by Integral
In past years I occasionaly partook of the weed.

I even attempted to learn some physics from inside a cloud of smoke. What I found was that in the light of day the smoke induced grand revelations of the night before turned into, at best trivial facts, at worst they were reveled to be total nonsense.

I cannot recomend altered states of mind for deep learning of any subject. This is experiance speaking not just some anti-dope smoking old man spouting off.

As a matter of fact if, some non working evening, a bowl were to be passed my way, I would not hesitate to get some somke in my mind.
Really nicely put, and I agree with it/you completely.........

[Peter Pan]

thanks for the responces guys and gals. I just wanted to make myself crystal clear on one thing. In no way was I suggesting to anyone to use drugs to further thier own thought process or carreer. I myself find it a lot easier to grasp ideas and problems with a clear mind.

Pan

[Chemicalsuperfreak]

Kekule allegedly came up with the structure of benzene after a marijuana induced dream.

Carl Sagan was a noted marijuana smoker and advocate, under a psuedonym.

It's not that it helps you think more clearly. But it gives you a different perspective on things. You'll have good thoughts that you would never have thought without it. You can't do math any better, so trying to get an edge up in physics is right out. But subjective things like art and social issues take on whole new meanings. Just try watching Aqua Teen Hunger Force of FLCL after a good hit.

[Monique]

Well, I know many people who do weed, they are the most uninspiring dope heads on the face of this earth :P they'll get nobel prizes?? I hope I'll live to see that day :P

I heard about the PCR guy getting the idea while driving his car, I didn't know he was on LSD at the time??

[zoobyshoe]

Originally posted by Peter Pan
I just wanted to make myself crystal clear on one thing. In no way was I suggesting to anyone to use drugs to further thier own thought process or carreer.

That being said, then, I think the answer to your original question doesn't lie in pot per se, but in the fact that people who "think outside the box" may, in some cases, be attracted to pot, for its "outside the box" aspects. I've never personally encountered anyone who made a habit of it over time, who can think straight about basic things.

[Integral]

I can testify to the fact that the long term effects of heavy pot use in negligible. In the early 70's while in the service, I have to classify myself as a "hashaholic". Turning my last year that I was in the Navy I was stoned EVERYDAY, in spite of this I was able to be recognized as one of the more capalbe technicians aboard ship.

After getting out of the Navy I completed my degree in Physics. Now 30 some odd years later, I do not smoke on a regular basis, ie its been years now. I do not feel that the various periods of use have effected me. I personally would like to see the legal status of Alcohol and Pot swapped.

[Njorl]

Integral, from what I understand, the pot available today is significantly stronger than it was 30 years ago. I have seen potheads get dumber over the years. True, it is small compared to what alchohol can do (what pot does in ten years booze can do in 6 months), but it is not negligible.

Njorl

[Rockazella]

Well, I know many people who do weed, they are the most uninspiring dope heads on the face of this earth :P they'll get nobel prizes?? I hope I'll live to see that day :P
lol, Monique, ya I bet you know alot of em. I was under the impression that Amsterdam is really only about the ez weed...like, thats the only reason people go there.

Your saying not everyone is a stoner there? Huh...well, I guess its possible that my sources for that info were(are) very narrow minded... yes, that must be it.
When I was in college, some of the most intriguing questions I was asked about physics were by uneducated kids who smoked…..well…..magic cigarettes. I was wondering if any of you had these same experiences. For some reason that stuff occasionally leads to really profound and interesting ideas and questions.
Many of my friends are/were potheads. Yeah, I have noticed that they are capable of some slightly interesting and creative ideas. However with each of them, over time, they have gone downhill. Their overall awareness seems to have been definitely affected by habitual use. Also, it's been saddening to see many of the ones that were ademantly againts it, try it once, and then start using all the usual pathetic justifiers.

So in conclusion...besides a couple a cool sayings and freaky MS paint drawings, I dont see weed as being that valuable to creative thinking.

[Echo 6 Sierra]

Exsqueeze me, but I believe that it all boils down to the person. Yes, the weed nowadays is more potent but only because it has been selectively bred and the info on its horticulture is widespread. I've known people that have terrific insite when under the influence and I've known people that shouldn't be allowed outdoors when in that state. Almost all of the people that I've known that drink alcohol soon lose their sense of judgement and annoy me. When I DID enjoy leaf the people around me noted that I acted nicer that when influenced by alcohol. I found out soon enough, however, that weed and school do not mix, especially math. Sorry KS.

I agree that the legal status of the two should be switched.

[Monique]

Originally posted by Rockazella
lol, Monique, ya I bet you know alot of em. I was under the impression that Amsterdam is really only about the ez weed...like, thats the only reason people go there.

Your saying not everyone is a stoner there? Huh...well, I guess its possible that my sources for that info were(are) very narrow minded... yes, that must be it. yeah, well, some people ARE all about the weed, but did you know that in the Netherlands a FAR smaller percentage of people use weed than in the US? The criminal statistics are very small, while in the US they are very high. When I was in the US there was a documentary on Dateline about the drugpolicy in the Netherlands, that was pretty cool to see :D

And Echo 6 Sierra, I can agree that a stickie can certainly inspire and relax.. the thing is most people don't know how to manage and go overboard. Same with alcohol, a glass is good to feel less bounded, but with several glasses the effects change.

Marijuana has actually medicinal powers too, it is a legalized drug in the Netherlands (I mean real drug) and can be written out by the doctor, especially for cancer patients, and the medical insurance will take the bill.

On the other side, alcohol too has its good sides, my mother was told by the doctor to drink a glass of wine each day..

and oh, for the ones wondering, no, I have never used drugs in my life, never even smoked a cigarette :P

[Monique]

About the medicinal marijuana: it is actually low grade stuff, not as strong as the stuff in 'coffee shops', for whatever that is worth.. still good for a trip though :P

[Loren Booda]

I figure that between the ages 12 and 25 I smoked 10 kilos of pot and hash. I got an 800 on my math SAT's when stoned. After I took LSD at Yale, I developed hallucinations, mania, depression and anxiety (precipitated by a preexisting susceptability to mental illness, marked by this self-medication and present in 20% of drug users).

Diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia, I had to drop out of Yale, but several long years later, upon quitting pot, I attained peace of mind I always sought. I have since achieved a BS and MS in physics, and can socialize and communicate better than ever.

Pot is a deceptive weed, seemingly innocent yet a true waste of one's life. Of course it feels good at first, but after awhile one becomes a Skinner monkey with a habit on its back. The medicines I now take have appropriate affect to my medical needs, without the burnout, apathy, delusions, asocialization and irresponsibility.

Pot is a mixture of myriad hallucinogenic chemicals. Held in one's lungs, its tar can be as toxic as that of cigarettes. My left bronchus, I believe, was damaged from constant exposure to pot smoke (yes, I used a bong). LSD and other destructive drugs often have the same dealer as marijuana. Remember that there are more suitable, legal and probably cheaper alternatives for the symptoms of psychiatric illness.

[RageSk8]

After I took LSD at Yale, I developed hallucinations, mania, depression and anxiety (precipitated by a preexisting susceptability to mental illness, marked by this self-medication and present in 20% of drug users).

When doctors say that self-medication is a bad idea, they are right. I learned this the hard way my senior year of high school. I would get depressed so bad I couldn't get out of bed. I was failing all of my classes. To make a long story short, I started using crystal meth. It got me out of bed that was for sure. I started going to school. Soon I was doing a lot of crystal meth everyday (I had a friend who came into about 7 grand in this period, he blew it all in a few months on meth and a laptop, which he later sold to buy more meth). Needless to say once I became dependent on the drug things became worse, even my depression. I am only telling this story to warn others not to do the same.

[Monique]

I also heard that a joint is far more harmfull for the lungs than a regular cigarette... there is this commercial on television where a guy is trying to fit an enormous amount of tabacco on a cigarette paper, to roll a cigarette, indicating the relative proportions of damage..

[Integral]

Originally posted by Njorl
Integral, from what I understand, the pot available today is significantly stronger than it was 30 years ago. I have seen potheads get dumber over the years. True, it is small compared to what alchohol can do (what pot does in ten years booze can do in 6 months), but it is not negligible.

Njorl

In my Navy days I spent 15 months floating around the Mediterraen See. In those days Good Hash was pretty easy to find. Lebanese Blonde was common, my favorite was what ever was burning in the bowl! So we had access to some pretty potent stuff.

Alot of the stateside weed was pretty bad, we did tie into some memorable Jamican once thou! Perhaps an ancestor of the modern weed!

I was 21 when I tasted my first, that is some what older then most today. I do not like to think about young teenagers being contiunally stoned, there is so much more to life. Pot in small doses is ok, but many people simply cannot control their desire and it becomes a life consumming monster, this is not good.

Remember "All things in moderation"




This includes moderation!

[zoobyshoe]

Originally posted by Loren Booda After I took LSD at Yale, I developed hallucinations, mania, depression and anxiety (precipitated by a preexisting susceptability to mental illness, marked by this self-medication and present in 20% of drug users).

Diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia, I had to drop out of Yale, but several long years later, upon quitting pot, I attained peace of mind I always sought. I have since achieved a BS and MS in physics, and can socialize and communicate better than ever.
I don't have any statistics, but I think that most who develop the symptoms you describe are never able to shake free of them to accomplish anything. It is to your credit that you were able to do this. I'm glad you pointed out that this was dependent on quitting pot. It is a sure fire method of sustaining any psychosis that might otherwise subside.

[zoobyshoe]

Originally posted by Echo 6 Sierra
Exsqueeze me, but I believe that it all boils down to the person.
Heavy, long term use gets to anyone. It may be faster for some than others, but they all get stupid in the end.
I've known people that have terrific insite when under the influence and I've known people that shouldn't be allowed outdoors when in that state.
The way people are while under the influence at any given time is less important than the long term stupification that shows up more and more, even when they aren't under the influence.

[megashawn]

Well, www.newscientist.com has some very good information on the subject. Infact, a whole section is dedicated to marijuana. It is a very good site for dispatching of urban legends such as:

Plus, those who regularly use, tend occassionaly at least, migrate to other things that have more severe effects.

Those who migrate to harder drugs, had other reasons. I'm an off and on user myself, as most know I'm a dirt biker. Hardcore trail riding is a very attention requiring skill, at which I find nothing but improvements.

Now, I'm not sure how credible Emode's IQ test is, but I took it once sober, then another time a few weeks later not sober. I scored 1 point less. I also took it under the effects of alcohol, and could not bring myself to finish it.

Most of my arguing points can be found at newscientist. They've really did a good job. For instance, they have a study which states stoned drivers are generally safer drivers, in contrary to that BS commercial on tv.

Now, long term use I think depends on the amount used. My dad for instance, has been using it most his adult life, and has lost little of his ability in 25+ years. However, he only smokes one joint a day. The people who smoke it like cigs are the ones who've destroyed there brain by the time there 30-40. Also, the ones who smoke on a such a level are more likely to do other things, acid, shrooms, coke, etc.

Personally, I've never done anything aside from shrooms and tree. I don't care to do shrooms again. I rarely drink alcohol, I don't like the immediate effects, nor the next day.

As to coming up with brilliant ideas on pot, well, sure. I'd be willing to gamble a large part of the american constitution was inspired in the minds of potheads.

And someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I've heard a stat that says alcohol kills more people then all illegal drugs combined. Not including the dwi incidents.

Another stat which I've yet to see refuted, is that pot has never been known to cause single death from its direct effects. However, I did hear about one guy hitting a gravity bong that got a brain aneurism(spelling) trying to hold the hit in.

[Zantra]

I'm basing my statement that regular users frequently (but not always) migrate to harder stuff on personal experiences and interactions. It is addictive psychologically, but not physically. And no, it may not literally kill brain cells, but it curbs motivation and energy levels. It does impair judgement, allbeit not as strongly as a lot of other things. Will you end up in a alley somewhere next to a wino? Probably not. But it sure won't motivate you to make any profound discoveries.

I gave up on my pothead friends because we'd agree to do something and they'd never show. Would find out later they were stoned and were just too lazy to get up and go. This happened so often, I gave up calling them. A regular will fully admit he has no motivation to do anything when he smokes it. Can you imagine if it suddenly became legal:

"Hey joe, there's a fire alarm on main street, shouldn't we go there, since we're fire fighters and all"? (weezy cough, bong hit, etc) "naahhh, it's just fire, it's not going anywhere- besides, scooby doo is on,"

And sure, the first thing out of people's mouths are "well Amsterdam.. blah blah blah. Well they've had it legal for a long time. And didn't I recall Monique saying something about college being free because they couldn't pay people to get them in there? Hmmm. You make an illegal substance legal, and people will overkill. Like someone said earlier- everything in moderation. Some people don't grasp that concept, especially here in the US. In Amsterdamn, I'm sure the per capita doesn't allow for a huge daily pot budget, so moderation is forced. If Crack were legalized, commercialized, and the prices doubled, you'd see a huge shift. There would be no black market, it would just become a very expensive hobby for the wealthy(stupid wealthy anyhow, but but this is just to illustrate my point, go with it). It would take the drug out of the reach of poor people by being taxed to high heaven, and would instead become a very expensive "treat".

I was gonna go to work, but then I got high....

[Monique]

Originally posted by Zantra
And sure, the first thing out of people's mouths are "well Amsterdam.. blah blah blah. Well they've had it legal for a long time. And didn't I recall Monique saying something about college being free because they couldn't pay people to get them in there? Hmmm. Yes, I said once that people are not motivated to go to Universtities. The reason behind that though, is that high education is not needed to get a good salary. The Dutch society is leveled out when it comes to the low and high classes, unlike in the US.

You make an illegal substance legal, and people will overkill. Like someone said earlier- everything in moderation. Some people don't grasp that concept, especially here in the US. In Amsterdamn, I'm sure the per capita doesn't allow for a huge daily pot budget, so moderation is forced. Wrong, pot is not that expensive you know, you can grow it yourself too if you want to save money.. I am very very sure money is not an issue, rather, it is legal and you go to the bar once in a while and smoke some with some friends. It kinda looses its magic it would have, when you have to do it hidden.

If Crack were legalized, commercialized, and the prices doubled, you'd see a huge shift. There would be no black market, it would just become a very expensive hobby for the wealthy(stupid wealthy anyhow, but but this is just to illustrate my point, go with it). It would take the drug out of the reach of poor people by being taxed to high heaven, and would instead become a very expensive "treat". Look at the criminal statistics and they will show you the real issue! Criminal statics coming from pot use are very low in Amsterdam, non existing if you ask me. Why? The price is regulated! Everyone can have a joint if they wish to.

Criminal statistics in the US though are quite high, joints are expensive since they are illegal and thus not regulated. People will go steal money if they can't afford it themselves. And as pointed out earlier: in Amsterdam you can get the stuff in the store, in countries where it is illegal you have to go to a dealer, who: also sells much more dangerous drugs.

Making pot illegal actually promotes criminal behaviour.

[Mr. Robin Parsons]

In my own history, well, the law reads these too, so, suffice to state that, even use to the point of appearance of 'term effect', dissipates after cessation, (personal experiance{?}) cessation is a relative/idiosyncratic thing. God's Grace!....mine was easy enough, every time...........

And I agree with this statement...
Originally posted by Monique
Making pot illegal actually promotes criminal behaviour.
As it is true.......

[Monique]

Originally posted by Zantra: If Crack were legalized, commercialized, and the prices doubled, you'd see a huge shift. The fact is that illegal things are WAY more expensive than legal stuff. Dutch government regulates prices of soft drugs, people don't have to go rob a bank to have a joint at the local coffee shop. Legalizing it also keeps people away from hard drugs.. Homeless people even were encouraged to go to a local church in Amsterdam to shoot up on hard drugs.. Rather do it in a safe environment to prevent disease and the littering of needles. Unfortunatly I think that church closed its doors when people actually started to deal, which was against the agreement.

[Kerrie]

marijuana can induce some abstract thinking, however, it is a mentally addictive herb that can dull focus and motivation...if one chooses to use it, it should be used appropriately and in moderation...

and to break a common myth why marijuana is illegal has to do with three major american industries:

wood

cotton

oil


there are two parts of the marijuana plant - the male and the female...the female plant grows the flower or "bud" that is smoked...the male plant has no medicinal value...

hemp is also created from the non-medicinal parts of the marijuana plant and is an excellent fiber for clothing, rope, fabric, paper products and a bio fuel that can serve as a substitute for oil - hence no issues with the middle east[s(]

if america was to legalize marijuana, hemp also could be put into mass production and the truth would be seen that hemp is really the greatest material for human consumption/use and put the wood, cotton, and oil industries out of business fast...

marijuana is also an effective pain killer and extremely helpful to those dealing with chemotherapy and other hardcore treatments that knock out appetites, and knocking out an appetite while ill only decreases the ability to heal...

if marijuana was REGULATED and legalized it would NOT lead to more crime...there are many law enforceres who believe marijuana should be legalized because it would eliminate those in custody for having a bag of pot on them-and our tax dollars are feeding and caring for these people-

alcohol and nicotine do far worse damage on our health and lives then marijuana, and they are both legal...

[jono]

If Crack were legalized, commercialized, and the prices doubled, you'd see a huge shift.

What, like a McCrack or something?

Double McSpliff with extra skunk perhaps?

Comes with munchies and a drink bwahahahaha!

[Monique]

Well said Kerrie, but is marijuana really a mentally addictive herb? Sweets and fatty foods are addictive too and can lead to obesity.. really, I don't think it is that addictive or habit forming. Only when one is trying to fill a gap it will have negative influence.. but so do other things such as television.

But who am I to comment, I've never used any mind altering drugs..

[Monique]

Originally posted by jono
What, like a McCrack or something?

Double McSpliff with extra skunk perhaps?

Comes with munchies and a drink bwahahahaha! Space cakes at your local 7/11? [6)]

[Lorider]

Just cracks me up that a violence inducing, many death and harm inducing substance like alchol is actually legal, while a natural-grow anywhere-multifaceted harmless plant like pot is illegal. That's America.

And to bring up a point why pot was made illegal. Funny, that Prohibition had just ended and the DEA or whatever drug enforment agency was around back then had to justify these huge budgets for combatting illegal booze, they certainly didn't want to lose that big government money and surprise surprise, pot was suddenly this henious craze taking over the nation that had to be combatted. And there was a time that if you owned so much acerage of land and weren't growing pot, the goverment would actually fine you because of all the uses for pot.

A lot of cops I have talked to say they would much rather square off against somebody completely sober or a pothead than somebody drunk or on harder drugs in intense situations. I have managed a few departments in a couple of different businesses and I have had a lot of employees under me that smoked the green bud and they have never given me any job performance problems. In fact a couple of my employees I knew that smoked on the job,(and yes I montiored them closely when I found out at first only to discover is wasn't really necessary)were actually some of my most handiest employees when it came to "thinking outside of the box."

But pot is like anything else in life, it affects everyone differently, so it's never a good idea to make broad sweeping generalizations about anything.

[Lorider]

Just cracks me up that a violence inducing, many death and harm inducing substance like alchol is actually legal, while a natural-grow anywhere-multifaceted harmless plant like pot is illegal. That's America.

And to bring up a point why pot was made illegal. Funny, that Prohibition had just ended and the DEA or whatever drug enforment agency was around back then had to justify these huge budgets for combatting illegal booze, they certainly didn't want to lose that big government money and surprise surprise, pot was suddenly this henious craze taking over the nation that had to be combatted. And there was a time that if you owned so much acerage of land and weren't growing pot, the goverment would actually fine you because of all the uses for pot.

A lot of cops I have talked to say they would much rather square off against somebody completely sober or a pothead than somebody drunk or on harder drugs in intense situations. I have managed a few departments in a couple of different businesses and I have had a lot of employees under me that smoked the green bud and they have never given me any job performance problems. In fact a couple of my employees I knew that smoked on the job,(and yes I montiored them closely when I found out at first only to discover is wasn't really necessary)were actually some of my most handiest employees when it came to "thinking outside of the box."

But pot is like anything else in life, it affects everyone differently, so it's never a good idea to make broad sweeping generalizations about anything.

Sorry for the double posting, its been a while since I smoked any

[Adrian Baker]

As a teacher in a school, who uses his real name on this site, AND who recently recommended this site to the older kids that I teach, I'd just like to clearly state that I have no idea what this whole thread is about........

[:)] [:D] [8)] [g)] [!:)] [zz)]

Tee Hee......

[Chemicalsuperfreak]

To clear up a few major misconceptions here.

Marijuana is not techncially legal in Holland but it is decriminalized. As are harder drugs and the drug rehabilitation programs in Holland and Switzerland makes the US justice system look like the Spanish Inquisition.

Second, marijuana is NOT stronger today then it was thirty years ago. This urban legend stems from a DEA "study" which compared recently confiscated fresh marijuana buds to some stick and stems that had been sitting in a warehouse since the sixties. The measured average THC content in marijuana is the same as it was thirty and forty years ago.

Furthermore. Marijuana smoking produces about as much carcinogens as tobacco. However, cigarettes are equiped with filters, which joints, being illegal, don't. Furthermore, the potsmoker consumes far less marijuana than the tobacco smoker does tobacco.

And even if it is carcinogenic, a slight increase in cancer is a lot safer than twenty years in a federal prison for possession of narcotics.

I'd say I agree with the reverse of laws for marijuana and alcohol, but decades in jail for possession of whiskey is also cruel and unusual punishment.

[Monique]

Originally posted by Chemicalsuperfreak
Marijuana is not techncially legal in Holland but it is decriminalized. As are harder drugs and the drug rehabilitation programs in Holland and Switzerland makes the US justice system look like the Spanish Inquisition. Yeah, maybe you are right, it is technically not legal, I am not sure about the laws.. but the fact that there are special stores and that doctors can prescribe it makes it seem pretty legal to me. The only illegal thing is to use it in public, but so is alcohol.

There is actually a law which says that those shops that sell soft drugs may not serve alcohol.. (not that it has been reinforced, they have just started to work on that).

Yeah, when I see Cops or some other US show where someone is taken into custody for having an empty plastic bag with probable traces of weed.. :P

[Kerrie]

Originally posted by Monique
Well said Kerrie, but is marijuana really a mentally addictive herb? Sweets and fatty foods are addictive too and can lead to obesity.. really, I don't think it is that addictive or habit forming. Only when one is trying to fill a gap it will have negative influence.. but so do other things such as television.

But who am I to comment, I've never used any mind altering drugs..

marijuana is actually quite habit forming if it's easily available and the smoker enjoys the effects...thus "potheads"[;)]

i have to go along with chemicalsuperfreak on his point of toxity of marijuana vs cigarettes...

[Peter Pan]

I think it is pretty funny that a few of you said that legalizing pot may lead to crime. If anyone has ever smoked or been around someone who has, they know pot smokers ARE NOT VIOLENT. They are happy people.

[megashawn]

I'd have to agree on the toxicity, but I have another thought for the subject.

Alot of ole timers smoke joints. I think they are going out of style. Most people nowadays smoke a blunt, or use a pipe.

Using a water pipe works as a filter. Also there are pipes that don't burn the pot, but instead heat it, releasing the thc and effectively leave (most) the toxic stuff behind. I believe they are called vaporizers.

And honestly, I think pot is an excuse for stupid people. The same way bad drivers blame there stupid actions on a cell phone, a stupid person will blame his actions on a drug. A person I know, who recently quit smoking got really mad at me when I told him he's done the world of potheads a favor.

Also, I don't think smoking pot is illegal at all. Only possesion.

And Kerrie mentioned a good point. Money. The same reason we have cars designed to go 150 mph, with 70 mph speed limits, and then an entire system dedicated to punishing and collecting money for breaking the speed limit. Cars could be designed to get up to 70 mph, be 100x more efficient and eliminate the need for most traffic cops. Why don't we? More efficient cars means less money for Texaco. Not being able to break the speed limit means less money for DA's, judges and lawyers.

[Integral0]

Clean as a whistle when it comes to drugs. A friend of mine died due to alcohol + car accident = (I don't need to put what happened). My friend was really smart . . . he really could of helped change this world . . . what's the point of using something that isn't really beneficial? What's the point?



I try to follow this piece of advice . . .

"You only see the turn in the road but not the path that lies ahead"-Jaime Escalante

[Integral0]

Originally posted by Peter Pan
I think it is pretty funny that a few of you said that legalizing pot may lead to crime. If anyone has ever smoked or been around someone who has, they know pot smokers ARE NOT VIOLENT. They are happy people.

happy being dead . . . if that's happy, I don't want to join

[megashawn]

I'm sorry for the loss of your friend, but surely you must see the difference.

Alcohol alters your mind and balance and judgement in such a way that operating a vacuum cleaner can be dangerous, much less driving a car.

Pot, on the other hand, doesn't do this. It can make you not want to operate the vacuum, but unless you drop the smoking device on your lap going down the road, there is about as much of a chance of you wrecking from it as there is you wrecking from spilling a soda or eating a taco.

I will withhold my feelings about drinking and driving.

[Peter Pan]

what's the point of using something that isn't really beneficial? What's the point?

I am sorry that your friend died in a car accident. No one wins when people are irresponsible when they are using drugs, however saying that drugs are not beneficial in any way is flat wrong.

I have been known to smoke a joint or have some drinks. It is a relaxing way to spend your free time. You can take a vacation from your brain. I need that sometimes. When you think and think and think and think all day, it is nice to shut it off for a while.

People have been taking substances to alter reality for a very long time and I would argue that the world would be a much more uninspired and boring place without them.

Pan

[zoobyshoe]

Originally posted by megashawn

Alcohol alters your mind and balance and judgement in such a way that operating a vacuum cleaner can be dangerous, much less driving a car.

Pot, on the other hand, doesn't do this. It can make you not want to operate the vacuum, but unless you drop the smoking device on your lap going down the road, there is about as much of a chance of you wrecking from it as there is you wrecking from spilling a soda or eating a taco.

You missed my story earlier in the thread about having to take a lit cigarette away from a pot smoker who has just let gas run all over the driveway around a motorcycle we were trying to get started.

[Mr. Robin Parsons]

Originally posted by zoobyshoe
You missed my story earlier in the thread about having to take a lit cigarette away from a pot smoker who has just let gas run all over the driveway around a motorcycle we were trying to get started.
Heck I worked around boats, and at gas station(s), in several situations requiring the sale, transportation, and supply of gasoline, and related (Hazardous) products, you do not need to be "stoned" to act as zoobyshoe has claimed this 'idiot' to have acted, I have seen, and experianced, very sober people acting just as, and more, stupidly, then that! No Problem!

[mntlfngrs]

Originally posted by Mr. Robin Parsons
Heck I worked around boats, and at gas station(s), in several situations requiring the sale, transportation, and supply of gasoline, and related (Hazardous) products, you do not need to be "stoned" to act as zoobyshoe has claimed this 'idiot' to have acted, I have seen, and experianced, very sober people acting just as, and more, stupidly, then that! No Problem!

So true, not to mention that liquid gas is not that dangerous. Of course I wouldn't recomend taking any chances but you can put a cigerett out in liquid gas. Vapor is a whole other story.

[zoobyshoe]

Originally posted by Mr. Robin Parsons
Heck I worked around boats, and at gas station(s), in several situations requiring the sale, transportation, and supply of gasoline, and related (Hazardous) products...
This is odd. I was under the impression you had never had a job in your life. Didn't you have an extended argument with someone claiming that this sort of work was beneath you?

[hypnagogue]

I'm just curious: out of all the people who are dead set, 100% against marijuana use, who among them has actually tried it?

It's easy to be sucked into misleading statistics or government propoganda... but if you think marijuana has nothing positive to offer, I contend you simply have never been high. Of course heavy long term use is not a good idea-- but neither is heavy long term use of twinkies. But if one knows how to pick one's spots, there are plenty of great things it can do for a person-- even just doing it once, to get some first-hand insight into the nature of consciousness, is an invaluable life experience if you ask me.

[zoobyshoe]

Originally posted by hypnagogue Of course heavy long term use is not a good idea-- but neither is heavy long term use of twinkies. But if one knows how to pick one's spots, there are plenty of great things it can do for a person-- even just doing it once, to get some first-hand insight into the nature of consciousness, is an invaluable life experience if you ask me.
I'm really ony concerned with saying a discouraging word to the people who do get into heavy long term use, who do not know how to pick their spot, and who do not get any insight into the nature of consciousness from it, while claiming they are judicious and enlightened and merely occasional users, when they're actually just rationalizing.

[mntlfngrs]

Originally posted by Mr. Robin Parsons
Heck I worked around boats, and at gas station(s), in several situations requiring the sale, transportation, and supply of gasoline, and related (Hazardous) products, you do not need to be "stoned" to act as zoobyshoe has claimed this 'idiot' to have acted, I have seen, and experianced, very sober people acting just as, and more, stupidly, then that! No Problem!

So true, not to mention that liquid gas is not that dangerous. Of course I wouldn't recomend taking any chances but you can put a cigerett out in liquid gas. Vapor is a whole other story.

[hypnagogue]

Originally posted by zoobyshoe
I'm really ony concerned with saying a discouraging word to the people who do get into heavy long term use, who do not know how to pick their spot, and who do not get any insight into the nature of consciousness from it, while claiming they are judicious and enlightened and merely occasional users, when they're actually just rationalizing.

Misuse of the drug is a concern, for sure. But just about anything in life is going to come with positives and negatives. The study of physics and ensuing development of technology has unleashed the power to literally destroy most of life on earth, not to mention giving disgruntled highschoolers a means to lash out and kill people if they see fit, and so on; these are surely serious concerns. But at the same time, I don't see anyone (besides maybe the Unabomber) saying that physics and technology is all evil and that we should eschew the practice of it altogether. I'm simply arguing for a more realistic perspective: there are bad effects from marijuana use, and there are good effects. It is just as shortsighted to deny the one as it is to deny the other.

[zoobyshoe]

Originally posted by hypnagogue I'm simply arguing for a more realistic perspective: there are bad effects from marijuana use, and there are good effects. It is just as shortsighted to deny the one as it is to deny the other.
I support its legal use by people with glaucoma and those undergoing chemotherapy. I think anyone else who can't live without it has got a problem.

[hypnagogue]

It's one thing to not be able to live without it; it's another thing to never have even experienced it. There are gradients of use, and it's not physiologically addictive. I know plenty of people who have used it (some extensively, some occassionally) who now don't smoke at all. Not everyone who smokes pot for non-medicinal reasons is a pothead.

[EvilPoet]

"Why is marijuana against the law? It grows naturally upon our planet.
Doesn't the idea of making nature against the law seem to you a bit...
unnatural? You know what I mean? It's nature. How do you make
nature against the ****ing law?" -Bill Hicks

[Mr. Robin Parsons]

Originally posted by zoobyshoe
This is odd. I was under the impression Obviously a fasle one! you had never had a job in your life. Didn't you have an extended argument with someone claiming that this sort of work was beneath you? Ha!.ha.ha.ha.ha!

HUH??? what??? Moi, never worked?? Ya nuts??

[Mr. Robin Parsons]

Literally in my life I have known of a fair number of people (10 or 15 offhand) who have used, used the "addicts terminologies" (Need a joint) in the time of there usage, then successfully quit completely, to this day. Most of them for rather simple reasons, like getting married, a job they got, something in their lives changed, to fill in what the marijuana use had been 'band-aiding' for them, there use being a sort of "cover over" for a lack of fulfilment, in other places in their lives.

Everyone needs a little bit of an 'out' in life, something that helps you to see your own perspective, from a differant perspective, even to the point of it being food, in some people.

Marijuana is simply sorta the 'polar opposite' of Alcohol, (and to say that is an insult to the properties of Marijuana) as one "settles you down" and the other "stimulates you".

[Loren Booda]

Where do we get the idea "if it's natural, it's good"?

[Kerrie]

loren, i don't think people are advocation that marijuana is good for you because it's natural, but more that it is not as harmful as propoganda claims it to be...

[Mr. Robin Parsons]

Originally posted by Loren Booda
Where do we get the idea "if it's natural, it's good"?
From Idealism's, cause lead is 'natural', and Good? Not internally!

[megashawn]

You missed my story earlier in the thread about having to take a lit cigarette away from a pot smoker who has just let gas run all over the driveway around a motorcycle we were trying to get started.

Well, as someone else pointed out and I already mentioned, claiming to be a pothead is an excuse for stupidity, similar to blaming bad driving to talking on a cell phone.

As to "having to take it", well, you didn't really have to. don't believe me? Get a cup of gas. Tie a smoke to a string, and danlge it over the cup, about 2 ft. Cut the string, watch the smoke drop in the cup, and extinguish.

In liquid form, there isn't enough oxygen in the gas to combust from a cigarette. Someone else mentioned the vapor, but even then, a cigarette is not really intense enough of a flame to light the vapors.

Sparks are more dangerous. something like swinging a hammer around gas vapors, striking a piece of metal, making a spark, is more likely to to cause a fire.

__

And as to that fact, I have seen far dumber things done under the influence of beer and Jack Daniels. For instance, the story about the guy wanting some beer, throws a rock at a glass window, only to discover, to his suprise, the window was plexiglass. The rock hit him in the head, I don't remember the details. When was the last time you heard of a person on pot doing something this dumb?

[Loren Booda]

Kerrie, per your avatar, "Go Ask Alice."

[Mr. Robin Parsons]

If you really want to ignite gasoline, with a cigarette, simply suck on the cigarette, while close enough to the gas, the combusting activity will do the rest........AND NO!!! don't try it, it does explode! (DANGEROUSLY!)

As for "how long" since having seen someone, on pot, doing something silly/stupid, what time is it?

What I find sorta interesting is that if you have someone "drunk to the gills" on booze, and you need their immediate attention, forgetaboutit!!, but if you have someone over-indulged in marijuana, have the same need of their immediate attention, (to something serious) you simply have to give them either, several chocolate bars, or some kind of 'sugar rush' as to compensate for the brains deprivation of sugar, that was induced by the drug, marijuana.

The 'stoner' can be brought back, (to a degree) the 'Drunk', time is the ONLY cure/relief.

[Loren Booda]

Remember that pot gives you disorientation in time and space, moderate hallucinations, inability to concentrate on complex tasks, introverted thinking, bizarre behavior and poor reaction to emergency situations.

Oh, yes, and it's "harmless" to drive under its influence??? What were we given our brain for, anyway?

As a stoned Boy Scout, I happened to chop into a log housing yellow jackets. While being stung, I looked at the hornet on the back of my hand, and swatted it with the blade of my hatchet. I still have the scar to remind me.

[Kerrie]

Originally posted by Loren Booda
Remember that pot gives you disorientation in time and space, moderate hallucinations, inability to concentrate on complex tasks, introverted thinking, bizarre behavior and poor reaction to emergency situations.

Oh, yes, and it's "harmless" to drive under its influence??? What were we given our brain for, anyway?

As a stoned Boy Scout, I happened to chop into a log housing yellow jackets. While being stung, I looked at the hornet on the back of my hand, and swatted it with the blade of my hatchet. I still have the scar to remind me.

alcohol does the same and it is legal to consume and possess...of course marijuana is a narcotic, but it should be legalized and controlled medicine for the good it does have...there are great benefits to cannabis, but it needs to be regulated...keeping it illegal makes the control and regulation almost impossible since people will smoke it regardless...

[zoobyshoe]

Originally posted by megashawn In liquid form, there isn't enough oxygen in the gas to combust from a cigarette. Someone else mentioned the vapor, but even then, a cigarette is not really intense enough of a flame to light the vapors.
This was a summer day. He had let the gasoline run out onto a black asphalt driveway in the sun. He was hunkered down at the side of the bike sitting in the middle of this puddle of gas smoking a cigarette.
And as to that fact, I have seen far dumber things done under the influence of beer and Jack Daniels.
Since I'm not saying people should drink instead of smoking pot, I don't know why you bring this up.

People do alot of stupid things while completely drug free. I can't reccomend anyone handicap themselves with anything.

[zoobyshoe]

Originally posted by Mr. Robin Parsons
HUH??? what??? Moi, never worked?? Ya nuts??
Just who are you, and what have you done with the Mr. Robin Parsons who lives in a tent because his money is gone and manual labor is beneath him?

[Mr. Robin Parsons]

Originally posted by zoobyshoe
Just who are you, and what have you done with the Mr. Robin Parsons who lives in a tent because his money is gone and manual labor is beneath him? HUH??

Originally posted by Mr. Robin Parsons
HUH??? what??? Moi, never worked?? Ya nuts??
What??? pay money to suppost the person who suppresses me??? what??? YA Nuts???? (Know the meaning of the Word D-E-M-O-C-R-A-C-Y?)

Who?

[zoobyshoe]

Originally posted by Mr. Robin Parsons
What??? pay money to suppost the person who suppresses me??? what??? YA Nuts???? (Know the meaning of the Word D-E-M-O-C-R-A-C-Y?)

Who?
You're saying it's exclusively because you don't want to pay taxes?

[Zantra]

I know plenty of people who smoke it. People with jobs, intelligent people, respectable people. That's thier bag, baby- to coin a phrase. It's a drug, it dulls the senses, it does not improve them. If you are claiming it does, then you are rationalizing and justifying, as someone mentioned earlier. No you won't be "Strung out" or do wild and crazy things. But you won't have an epiphany while using it.. don't fool yourself. Just like any other substance, it can be abused, and it can affect your life if it is overused.

Drugs are bad..mmmmmkay?

[hypnagogue]

Originally posted by Zantra
Drugs are bad..mmmmmkay?

Correction: drug abuse is bad. Responsible drug use can have very positive things to offer. (disclaimer: I am not advocating drug use, but only telling the truth. Drug abuse is a serious problem, but that doesn't merit banal and oversimplified treatment of the subject of drugs in general. We're all intelligent people here.)

I don't know if you've ever seen the episode where Mr. Mackey does acid, but it makes some good points about the reality of drug use and the popular knee-jerk reaction to drug use. mmkay. [:)]

[Zantra]

I'm not oversimplifying it. It has it's positive and negative effects. You just have the weigh the pros and cons. For me, the pros don't justify the expense. And I'm speaking as one who in the past was a semi-regular user. It's been many years, and I don't have a desire to use it again. Just not my thing. I see how much money my friends spend on it. I personally have better things to spend my money on.

[hypnagogue]

I used to smoke a bit myself as well, and I can unequivocally say that my life is better for having done it. There's a lot of value just in experiencing first-hand how ordinary waking consciousness can be so much different in so many ways than it usually is. After a certain period of usage you don't really get anything new from the experience, which is a big reason I lost interest. But that doesn't negate the value of the initial experiences either.

Is long term usage worth it? No. Is at least some temporary usage worth it? In my experience, emphatically yes. Of course, that's just my opinion and every individual should draw their own lines.

[Adrian Baker]

There is a lot of moralising going on here about what 'people should' or 'people shouldn't do' .... What happened to the concepts of freedom and liberty? If someone wants to take a substance that may or may not do them any good what is to do with the rest of us? I don't care whether a drug can harm you or not - it is YOUR choice to take it, not mine or societies. ONLY if something you do causes harm to others should 'we' be concerned. That's why alcohol is legal, but drunk driving isn't.

It's like other 'morality issues' such as homosexuality. Some people love waxing lyrical about what others should or shouldn't do... Well if they PERSONALLY don't want to do something, they don't have to, do they? But what has who puts what organ in what orifice, or who puts what drug in their body got to with legality or right and wrong?

Fight the Nanny state!!!
[s(]

[Mr. Robin Parsons]

Originally posted by zoobyshoe
You're saying it's exclusively because you don't want to pay taxes? ]
Scuza, perhaps you hadn't noticed, this thread is about POT, NOT me!

[Hurkyl]

But what has who puts what organ in what orifice, or who puts what drug in their body got to with legality or right and wrong?

Some laws are in place to protect people from themselves.

[Adrian Baker]

But who decides these things?
Shouldn't it be the individual?
What if 'society' chooses to do the wrong thing?

I don't want protecting from myself, by someone else who decides what is good for me..... No No NO!

Not allowing women to work or vote used to be thought of as 'protecting them'....!

Persecuting religeous minorities has been a favourite 'choice' of societies worldwide to 'protect sinners' from God's wrath.

Pah! [s(]

Freedom please.

[Kerrie]

Originally posted by hypnagogue
Correction: drug abuse is bad. Responsible drug use can have very positive things to offer. (disclaimer: I am not advocating drug use, but only telling the truth. Drug abuse is a serious problem, but that doesn't merit banal and oversimplified treatment of the subject of drugs in general. We're all intelligent people here.)

I don't know if you've ever seen the episode where Mr. Mackey does acid, but it makes some good points about the reality of drug use and the popular knee-jerk reaction to drug use. mmkay. [:)]

i absolutely agree...it's like this saying:

If guns cause crime, then spoons cause obesity.

America has a bad habit of displacing the responsibility of our actions on a substance or thing instead of the people taking the responsibility...same goes for drug abuse...

[Hurkyl]

Shouldn't it be the individual?

Not for everything.


What if 'society' chooses to do the wrong thing?

Then the wrong thing is done, and with any luck the mistake is discovered and rectified.

Doing things (and thus making mistakes) is certainly better than doing nothing at all.


It's the same rationale that goes with parents setting rules for their children. You give your kids rules like "Don't run with scissors" because they don't know better, and the government gives you rules like "Don't drive without your seatbelt on" because you don't know better.

[Mr. Robin Parsons]

If the proper rules of democracy were/are followed, A country not being permitted to enact "a law that does more harm, then the harm it seeks to solve" which is what the current marijuana laws do.

They cause, and create, more harm (damage to peoples lives by function of a "criminal record" for simple possession) to the lives of the citizens, then what the damage, to those citizens, would have been, had that kind of law never been enacted.

People using marijuana do little, if any, Social damage, and that (Social Damage) is supposed to be the basis of the mitigation of the appraisal of damage(s), NOT a judgmentalism of the character of the user!

[Integral0]

Originally posted by Peter Pan
I am sorry that your friend died in a car accident. No one wins when people are irresponsible when they are using drugs, however saying that drugs are not beneficial in any way is flat wrong.

I have been known to smoke a joint or have some drinks. It is a relaxing way to spend your free time. You can take a vacation from your brain. I need that sometimes. When you think and think and think and think all day, it is nice to shut it off for a while.

People have been taking substances to alter reality for a very long time and I would argue that the world would be a much more uninspired and boring place without them.

Pan

Don't get me wrong, I know some drugs have medicinal benefits that are really good for some people. What I am saying is -> party bingeing on drugs and alcohol and excess use is really not too productive (as is the case with my friend).

[megashawn]

Hey, I tend to think that any decent person, pot smoker or not, would agree with the previous post.

[Zantra]

I don't think less of people who do use it, but as someone point out, the damage done to someone's life if they face the penalty for using it far outweight the side benefits. If someone wants to risk that, then more power to them. I don't feel personally the risk is worth the reward.

[Chemicalsuperfreak]

Originally posted by Zantra
I don't think less of people who do use it, but as someone point out, the damage done to someone's life if they face the penalty for using it far outweight the side benefits. If someone wants to risk that, then more power to them. I don't feel personally the risk is worth the reward.

Which is why it should be legalized. The penalities are cruel and unusual. Any criminal prosecution of marijuana possession is cruel and unusual.

[Nommos Prime (Dogon)]

Legal Facts:
In the Australian Capital Territory, where I live, marijuana (for recreational use) is decriminalised. All a choofer cops if caught by the Australian Federal Police with less than an ounce (28 grams) of marijuana is a SCON (S…. Cannabis Offence Notice). A SCON is similar to a parking fine, where you have 28 days to pay $150 (I think). If you pay, no conviction is recorded.

On A Personal Note:
I believe natural drugs such as marijuana and some types of mushrooms are a doorway to a collective subconscious which has been too long ignored by our developed society. The shamans knew it, certain scientists know it, the American military knows it, the pharmaceutical companies know it. In fact, even the Russians and NASA conducted experiments on mushrooms spores in the space medium (although its pretty hard to work out why, or to get copies of their studies). Prohibited drugs are not welcomed in our society, because authorities realise that these substances enable us to think “outside” of the world we live in. They don’t want this to occur. The government is quite happy to peddle drugs to children (Ritalin, dexamphetamines) for HADD (Hyperactive Attention Deficit Disorder). The USAF actually ground their fighter pilots if they refuse to take prescribed amphetamines. That’s right, they have to take them in order to fly – no wonder collateral damage and friendly fire occurs. Psychiatrists hand out anti-depressants to women through the form of Prozac and Lovan at the first sight of a tear! Iran-Contra affair etc. etc.
Natural drugs are not bad, it’s the manufactured ones you have to watch…

[Kerrie]

Originally posted by Nommos Prime (Dogon)
Legal Facts:
In the Australian Capital Territory, where I live, marijuana (for recreational use) is decriminalised. All a choofer cops if caught by the Australian Federal Police with less than an ounce (28 grams) of marijuana is a SCON (S…. Cannabis Offence Notice). A SCON is similar to a parking fine, where you have 28 days to pay $150 (I think). If you pay, no conviction is recorded.

On A Personal Note:
I believe natural drugs such as marijuana and some types of mushrooms are a doorway to a collective subconscious which has been too long ignored by our developed society. The shamans knew it, certain scientists know it, the American military knows it, the pharmaceutical companies know it. In fact, even the Russians and NASA conducted experiments on mushrooms spores in the space medium (although its pretty hard to work out why, or to get copies of their studies). Prohibited drugs are not welcomed in our society, because authorities realise that these substances enable us to think “outside” of the world we live in. They don’t want this to occur. The government is quite happy to peddle drugs to children (Ritalin, dexamphetamines) for HADD (Hyperactive Attention Deficit Disorder). The USAF actually ground their fighter pilots if they refuse to take prescribed amphetamines. That’s right, they have to take them in order to fly – no wonder collateral damage and friendly fire occurs. Psychiatrists hand out anti-depressants to women through the form of Prozac and Lovan at the first sight of a tear! Iran-Contra affair etc. etc.
Natural drugs are not bad, it’s the manufactured ones you have to watch…

absolute perfect logic to my ears[:))]

[Mr. Robin Parsons]

Apparently, here in Canada, they were going to try for something like that, giving you a ticket for possession, (no criminal record) but it hasn't happened yet......... 'we' are waiting.........

[Loren Booda]

...meanwhile you can roll a big spliff from a pink ticket.