Realizing you're gay: What is meant by that?

[arildno]

INTRODUCTION:
As a gay man, I've often wondered why it seems so difficult for straights to understand what we mean by having a "gay identity" that to me is a perfectly natural, keen sense of being; an abiding tune if you like, a humming in me at all times.

The almost universal reaction from straights is that we mean something like having explicit sexual fantasies about members of our own sex, i.e, that we are referring to our specific mode of arousal.
By this reaction, straights have totally missed the mark, or at least, deeply misconstrued the whole issue.

Another typical reaction is that perhaps we gays go about with a sense of being different, i.e, that we have a sort of perpetual outcast feeling within us that drives us into each others arms to huddle together for some time and gain respite from a hostile world around us.
This last attempt from (usually sympathetic, but pitying) straights to understand us is however, utterly false:
Rather than being an ever-present sense of inadequacy, my "gayness" is a sense akin to that of achieved wholeness and self-sufficiency, that is, intimately and irrevocably entwined with my sense of independent adulthood, and yes, pride and self-confidence.


I am as utterly and totally gay when I inhale a fresh batch of cool morning air as when I am deeply intimate with another man.
Such a statement will most usually be met with headshakes and stares of blank incomprehension from straights.

To me, at least, it has been very puzzling that there doesn't seem to exist a similar sense of "straightness".
Lately, however, as I've pondered these various issues again, I think I've found a way to describe this, and I hope you'll join me and read on since I think I've also figured out a few bits about you straights which might be of interest to yourselves.

I have headed the thread with a reference to the moment when you REALIZE you're gay, perhaps the most defining moment in a gay man's life, and that should not be confused with the moments you start having sexual fantasies about or encounters with boys/men, nor about coming out as gay.

As I see it now, gays and straights go through totally different maturation processes towards adulthood leading to quite strongly divergent mentalities, which makes "understanding" very hard, and probably can't ever be achieved fully.

So, in the spirit of attempting the impossible anyway, my next post will involve describing these maturation processes as I see it now.
I will, of course, be delighted if someone actually reads this thread and posts intelligent comments, even if it should happen that those comments reduces my beautiful theory about distinct maturation processes to shambles..

(Perhaps this thread ought to be moved from GD to "Social Sciences", or possibly, the philosophy forums)

[Curious3141]

INTRODUCTION:
As a gay man, I've often wondered why it seems so difficult for straights to understand what we mean by having a "gay identity" that to me is a perfectly natural, keen sense of being; an abiding tune if you like, a humming in me at all times.

The almost universal reaction from straights is that we mean something like having explicit sexual fantasies about members of our own sex, i.e, that we are referring to our specific mode of arousal.
By this reaction, straights have totally missed the mark, or at least, deeply misconstrued the whole issue.

Another typical reaction is that perhaps we gays go about with a sense of being different, i.e, that we have a sort of perpetual outcast feeling within us that drives us into each others arms to huddle together for some time and gain respite from a hostile world around us.
This last attempt from (usually sympathetic, but pitying) straights to understand us is however, utterly false:
Rather than being an ever-present sense of inadequacy, my "gayness" is a sense akin to that of achieved wholeness and self-sufficiency, that is, intimately and irrevocably entwined with my sense of independent adulthood, and yes, pride and self-confidence.


I am as utterly and totally gay when I inhale a fresh batch of cool morning air as when I am deeply intimate with another man.
Such a statement will most usually be met with headshakes and stares of blank incomprehension from straights.

To me, at least, it has been very puzzling that there doesn't seem to exist a similar sense of "straightness".
Lately, however, as I've pondered these various issues again, I think I've found a way to describe this, and I hope you'll join me and read on since I think I've also figured out a few bits about you straights which might be of interest to yourselves.

I have headed the thread with a reference to the moment when you REALIZE you're gay, perhaps the most defining moment in a gay man's life, and that should not be confused with the moments you start having sexual fantasies about or encounters with boys/men, nor about coming out as gay.

As I see it now, gays and straights go through totally different maturation processes towards adulthood leading to quite strongly divergent mentalities, which makes "understanding" very hard, and probably can't ever be achieved fully.

So, in the spirit of attempting the impossible anyway, my next post will involve describing these maturation processes as I see it now.
I will, of course, be delighted if someone actually reads this thread and posts intelligent comments, even if it should happen that those comments reduces my beautiful theory about distinct maturation processes to shambles..

(Perhaps this thread ought to be moved from GD to "Social Sciences", or possibly, the philosophy forums)

You've expressed yourself very eloquently. I've had a few gay friends (platonic, of course) in the past, they're nice guys and there was no difficulty in interacting with them. Maybe I just wasn't their type, who knows ? :biggrin:

[Lisa!]

INTRODUCTION:
As a gay man, I've often wondered why it seems so difficult for straights to understand what we mean by having a "gay identity" that to me is a perfectly natural, keen sense of being; an abiding tune if you like, a humming in me at all Maybe because it seems abnormal since there is no such a thing in nature for example about animals!But of course don't ask me how I know we don't have the same about animals...!

[Curious3141]

Maybe because it seems abnormal since there is no such a thing in nature for example about animals!But of course don't ask me how I know we don't have the same about animals...!

Are you kidding ?! There are *plenty* of examples of homosexual behaviour in the (rest of the) animal kingdom.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/07/0722_040722_gayanimal.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_animals

[arildno]

You've expressed yourself very eloquently. I've had a few gay friends (platonic, of course) in the past, they're nice guys and there was no difficulty in interacting with them. Maybe I just wasn't their type, who knows ? :biggrin:
I can tell you straight away what's "wrong" with you: You're straight.
You could only "satisfy" a gay man on his "grunt" level; you're not a kindred spirit, and that's what we are attracted to when we've matured.

You're not singing, we can't sense you.

[Lisa!]

Are you kidding ?! There are *plenty* of examples of homosexual behaviour in the (rest of the) animal kingdom.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/07/0722_040722_gayanimal.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_animals
I'll take a look later.

[Curious3141]

Homosexuality is neither as rare or as "deviant" as many of us pretend. I've heard estimates of male homosexuality ranging from 5 to 10 %. Even assuming the lower bound, that means one out of twenty random males in the population (on average) is gay (whether or not they would readily admit it, perhaps even to themselves). Hardly rare.

Given that prevalence, I wouldn't even consider it abnormal in any way. Just normal variation, really. And it hurts no-one.

[Curious3141]

I can tell you straight away what's "wrong" with you: You're straight.
You could only "satisfy" a gay man on his "grunt" level; you're not a kindred spirit, and that's what we are attracted to when we've matured.

You're not singing, we can't sense you.

I don't want you to satisfy me, or the reverse. And I wouldn't *want* you to be attracted to me. But would my straightness mean that we can't be friends ?

[arildno]

I don't want you to satisfy me, or the reverse. And I wouldn't *want* you to be attracted to me.
So then you ought to be relieved that the vast majority of adult gays wouldn't want you, either.

But would my straightness mean that we can't be friends ?
Not at all, as long as we have enough interests in common , say like literature, science, political views or sports.

[Curious3141]

So then you ought to be relieved that the vast majority of adult gays wouldn't want you, either.

Of course. As relieved as you must be that the vast majority of women (straight and gay) wouldn't want you. :tongue2:


Not at all, as long as we have enough interests in common , say like literature, science, political views or sports.

Of course.

[Smurf]

So then you ought to be relieved that the vast majority of adult gays wouldn't want you, either.
And the ones who do wouldn't care if you liked them back :rofl:

[arildno]

Of course. As relieved as you must be that the vast majority of women (straight and gay) wouldn't want you. :tongue2:





Can't say that I've been much bothered with adoring females, but when it has happened, I've had to stifle a yawn or two, and resist the urge to go home and get a good night's sleep.

So yes, I am relieved, since I prefer to be present and sharp when I'm awake.

[PerennialII]

... interesting thread Arildno ! Have thought about issues such as this one perhaps way too equally & in a simplified sense, interesting to read your "next post" since there do appear to be degrees-of-freedom (like the realization, the following maturation...) which are difficult to grasp on this side of the fence.

[Moonbear]

Arildno, it seems you're making the same errors in generalization regarding "straights" as you are arguing is made about "gays."

As for the question of when do you become overtly aware of your sexual preferences? I would guess that most homosexual people would come to that self-awareness at about the same time as heterosexuals become aware of their own sexuality, some time around puberty. Children are generally not inclined to think about sexuality at all, and only as they begin to enter puberty and start feeling "strange feelings" for others, be it of the opposite sex or the same sex, do they begin to become aware of sexuality. Puberty is a tough time for everyone, though the lack of acceptance/intolerance of homosexuality in society must make it more difficult when the other young men are talking about "hot girls" (yes, at that age, they say girls :tongue:) and you're thinking about that "hot boy."

I wonder what you mean when you say that you wake up in the morning as gay as you are all day long. I mean, of course you are, just as I'm as heterosexual in the morning as I am all day long, but it's not an active thought every single morning or something that ought to run through one's mind all day long unless you see someone attractive that gets your thoughts onto such a topic. Unless you're trying to say that because you have a harder time being openly yourself (such as, you can't just off-handedly comment while out in a group, "Wow! He's HOT!" the way a heterosexual male might do when he sees an attractive woman) that it weighs upon your mind more often, or that it means you find yourself more comfortable in a community of other gay people where the culture is more open to you just being who you are. If so, it's unfortunate that you haven't met heterosexual friends with whom you can feel yourself, or for that matter, that you need to distinguish among who is heterosexual or homosexual in order to find friends who truly are friends in the sense of fully accepting you as the person you are. I assure you that among the heterosexual population, there are those of us who aren't going to blink or look at you cross-eyed if you want to comment on the hot men instead of the hot women (well, we might blink the first time if we've made fools of ourselves assuming you were straight and trying to point you toward women we thought you'd find attractive). And, of course, comments such as those from Dex and Lisa! here don't help you or anyone else who is homosexual feel comfortable being yourself in a crowd until you've confirmed their opinions of homosexuality.

And to Dex and Lisa!, there is NOTHING sick, disgusting, or unnatural about ANY form of sexuality (although it is has turned out to be rather disconcerting just how natural it is to the zookeepers who were hoping to breed penguins who found out all their male penguins are homosexual).

Arildno, gay men really should let women know they are gay very quickly; I really hate flirting with a really cute guy all night only to learn I've been wasting my time because he's gay. :grumpy: It happens way too often too (and no, I don't just assume someone is gay because he's not interested in my flirting, I'm talking about when they eventually just tell me so).

[cronxeh]

Hehe.. I think Dex has an insecure personality and Lisa is simply ignorant of certain things. There are a lot of homosexual behavior in the animal kingdom - and there are a lot of animals who have sex not to just reproduce but for pleasure - certain monkeys do it every other minute when they are bored, some do it anally - indiscriminate of the gender or method of delivery.

There are a few theories I have on the matter - ranging from scientific to pseudoscientific. For starters it could be a genetic predesposition to a certain pheromone in gay people and they will be drawn towards either gender - and those who have equal predesposition will be bisexual. In some there will be a strong repulsion towards one gender and affection towards another through other chemical traits that evade me at the moment - and they might want to become transgender and either homosexual or bisexual depending on the discrete combination of such traits

From a pseudoscience department I can think of a male being stuck in a female body, or a female being stuck in a male body. This is unlikely to explain the bisexual case, and generally wont be as acceptable as I'd like to admit it - yes, I am a lesbian woman stuck in a man's body, and no, that doesnt really ever work.

As far as this being sick or repulsive, consider that the next time you drop the soap in a male prison block - there are just a few things that give you peak release of endorphins and that is, unfortunately for your tight little buttcheeks, Dex, one of them :biggrin:

Shh.. Hey Dex.. Dont drop the soap, homie

[arildno]

Okay, I'll go ahead; I'll try to keep this as Victorian as possible.

First of all, however, I would like to draw attention to a perfectly common psychological distinction we make in our own lives, and that is the difference between our total mental content and our self-conception.
This is absolutely crucial to have clear before you, so I'll devote this post to this issue:
With our total mental content I mean just that:
Every fleeting sensation we experience, every tremor of feeling we have, along with all stray thoughts that hits our head from time to time.

But that doesn't mean that every such mental component is part of our own self-conception:
For example, we might feel uncharacteristically snappish one day and bite those around us, but we say things like "I'm just in a bad mood", "It's just a phase I'm in", that is:
We do not regard these mental elements part of your "true self", in a way it is something "other" than ourselves that occupies our mind.

Perhaps you occasionally get a stray political thought in your head which is totally different from "your" views, and you've no idea how that sort of un-you-ishness managed to sneak its way into your mind.

That is, our sense of ourselves, our self-conception, our identity sense does not claim everything which happens within our heads as "true" expressions of yourself.

[arildno]

Arildno, it seems you're making the same errors in generalization regarding "straights" as you are arguing is made about "gays."
Very probably. That's one of the major reasons I made this thread; I very much would like to be challenged to the point where I must discard the theory I'm about to propose.

As for the question of when do you become overtly aware of your sexual preferences? I would guess that most homosexual people would come to that self-awareness at about the same time as heterosexuals become aware of their own sexuality, some time around puberty. Children are generally not inclined to think about sexuality at all, and only as they begin to enter puberty and start feeling "strange feelings" for others, be it of the opposite sex or the same sex, do they begin to become aware of sexuality. Puberty is a tough time for everyone, though the lack of acceptance/intolerance of homosexuality in society must make it more difficult when the other young men are talking about "hot girls" (yes, at that age, they say girls :tongue:) and you're thinking about that "hot boy."
There's a subtle issue here, which I'll get back to.

I wonder what you mean when you say that you wake up in the morning as gay as you are all day long.
Quite so; I hope to be able to explain that.
Just in advance, I think you'll get vexated with me and say:
"But that has nothing to do with being "gay", arildno!"..

Arildno, gay men really should let women know they are gay very quickly; I really hate flirting with a really cute guy all night only to learn I've been wasting my time because he's gay. :grumpy: It happens way too often too (and no, I don't just assume someone is gay because he's not interested in my flirting, I'm talking about when they eventually just tell me so).
We are probably assuming that the girls pick up the clues of polite non-interest in the same way that other gays would pick them up.
On this issue, we really should make things crystal clear as fast as is "possible" , I fully agree with you.

[Moonbear]

There are a few theories I have on the matter - ranging from scientific to pseudoscientific. For starters it could be a genetic predesposition to a certain pheromone in gay people and they will be drawn towards either gender - and those who have equal predesposition will be bisexual. In some there will be a strong repulsion towards one gender and affection towards another through other chemical traits that evade me at the moment - and they might want to become transgender and either homosexual or bisexual depending on the discrete combination of such traits

From a pseudoscience department I can think of a male being stuck in a female body, or a female being stuck in a male body. This is unlikely to explain the bisexual case, and generally wont be as acceptable as I'd like to admit it - yes, I am a lesbian woman stuck in a man's body, and no, that doesnt really ever work.

You may have your science and pseudoscience issues mixed up a bit. I don't know of anything that would suggest pheromones have anything to do with sexuality. There are studies showing that sexually dimorphic areas of the brain are more similar between heterosexual females and homosexual males than between heterosexual and homosexual males or females. These are areas of the brain that are influenced by hormones, both during early development and at/following puberty, though which comes first, the brain development or hormonal environment, I don't know.

There are indeed transgendered people, which is NOT the same as being homosexual, who really do feel they are a man trapped in a woman's body or vice versa. I recently met a person who is undergoing the transition from female to male. Because this person is still undergoing the process of transitioning, and is currently in the stage of hormonal treatments and not yet at the stage of any surgical alterations, I have trouble remembering to use the correct pronouns, but he prefers that we use male pronouns at this stage, though understands when we make a mistake and use a female pronoun. He's been using a masculinized version of a nickname for his first name for some time now, so it's just easier using his name until I get used to referring to him as "him" or "he." The hardest part of the transition for him is that right now, due to the hormonal treatments, he says he has all the emotional stability around women as a 14 year-old boy, which I found really fascinating to learn from a biological perspective of the influence of hormones in adulthood.

[Astronuc]

As a gay man, I've often wondered why it seems so difficult for straights to understand what we mean by having a "gay identity" that to me is a perfectly natural, keen sense of being; an abiding tune if you like, a humming in me at all times.

The almost universal reaction from straights is that we mean something like having explicit sexual fantasies about members of our own sex, i.e, that we are referring to our specific mode of arousal.
By this reaction, straights have totally missed the mark, or at least, deeply misconstrued the whole issue.

Another typical reaction is that perhaps we gays go about with a sense of being different, i.e, that we have a sort of perpetual outcast feeling within us that drives us into each others arms to huddle together for some time and gain respite from a hostile world around us.
This last attempt from (usually sympathetic, but pitying) straights to understand us is however, utterly false:
Rather than being an ever-present sense of inadequacy, my "gayness" is a sense akin to that of achieved wholeness and self-sufficiency, that is, intimately and irrevocably entwined with my sense of independent adulthood, and yes, pride and self-confidence.

I am as utterly and totally gay when I inhale a fresh batch of cool morning air as when I am deeply intimate with another man.
Such a statement will most usually be met with headshakes and stares of blank incomprehension from straights.

To me, at least, it has been very puzzling that there doesn't seem to exist a similar sense of "straightness".
Lately, however, as I've pondered these various issues again, I think I've found a way to describe this, and I hope you'll join me and read on since I think I've also figured out a few bits about you straights which might be of interest to yourselves.

I have headed the thread with a reference to the moment when you REALIZE you're gay, perhaps the most defining moment in a gay man's life, and that should not be confused with the moments you start having sexual fantasies about or encounters with boys/men, nor about coming out as gay.

As I see it now, gays and straights go through totally different maturation processes towards adulthood leading to quite strongly divergent mentalities, which makes "understanding" very hard, and probably can't ever be achieved fully.

So, in the spirit of attempting the impossible anyway, my next post will involve describing these maturation processes as I see it now.
I will, of course, be delighted if someone actually reads this thread and posts intelligent comments, even if it should happen that those comments reduces my beautiful theory about distinct maturation processes to shambles..

(Perhaps this thread ought to be moved from GD to "Social Sciences", or possibly, the philosophy forums) Just curious, what's the motivation to present this? It's no big deal to me. :cool:

I agree - I am as utterly and totally me when I inhale a fresh batch of cool morning air - but then I am only intimate with my wife. :biggrin:

I have many gay/lesbian friends - for me that's quite natural. My best friend from high school 'came out' to me years ago. He was worried that I might reject him. No way! He's still one of my best friends - and I love him dearly! I was invited and I attended his 'wedding'. He is married to a very nice guy. :smile:

On occassion, I have been 'hit' on by gay men. No big deal. I politely decline. I also politely decline when I get hit on by women.

As for "realizing one is gay", I imagine that it has to do with realizing a sexual identity once one passes through puberty in a culture which is predominantly heterosexual. All of us are the product of a 'heterosexual' union (a mom and a dad) - biologically that is just the way it is. Before puberty (sexual maturity) the sexual identity (boy/girl) is more cultural. After puberty - things get a whole lot more complicated. :biggrin:

My best friend in pre-K and kindergarten was a girl. In first grade, I had a girl-friend (seriously!) - the first of many. Looking back I probably was friends with more girls than boys as I was growing up, and actually I would have to say I prefer the company of women to most men. :biggrin:

Anyway, take care arildno. I enjoy reading your posts on math! :smile:

[dextercioby]

Hehe.. I think Dex has an insecure personality and Lisa is simply ignorant of certain things. There are a lot of homosexual behavior in the animal kingdom - and there are a lot of animals who have sex not to just reproduce but for pleasure - certain monkeys do it every other minute when they are bored, some do it anally - indiscriminate of the gender or method of delivery.

There are a few theories I have on the matter - ranging from scientific to pseudoscientific. For starters it could be a genetic predesposition to a certain pheromone in gay people and they will be drawn towards either gender - and those who have equal predesposition will be bisexual. In some there will be a strong repulsion towards one gender and affection towards another through other chemical traits that evade me at the moment - and they might want to become transgender and either homosexual or bisexual depending on the discrete combination of such traits

From a pseudoscience department I can think of a male being stuck in a female body, or a female being stuck in a male body. This is unlikely to explain the bisexual case, and generally wont be as acceptable as I'd like to admit it - yes, I am a lesbian woman stuck in a man's body, and no, that doesnt really ever work.

As far as this being sick or repulsive, consider that the next time you drop the soap in a male prison block - there are just a few things that give you peak release of endorphins and that is, unfortunately for your tight little buttcheeks, Dex, one of them :biggrin:

Shh.. Hey Dex.. Dont drop the soap, homie


How do you know i have "tight little buttcheeks" ?? :eek: You can't see them in the photo i have here on PF, you might assume, i could still be a fata$$. :tongue2:

I have a sexy butt. :cool: It's not a secret anymore.

:tongue2: :tongue2: :tongue2: :tongue2: :tongue2: :tongue2: :tongue2: :tongue2: :tongue2: :tongue2: :tongue2: :tongue2: :tongue2: :tongue2:



Daniel.

[Astronuc]

How do you know i have "tight little buttcheeks" ?? :eek: You can't see them in the photo i have here on PF, you might assume, i could still be a fata$$. :tongue2:

I have a sexy butt. :cool: It's not a secret anymore.

:tongue2: :tongue2: :tongue2: :tongue2: :tongue2: :tongue2: :tongue2: :tongue2: :tongue2: :tongue2: :tongue2: :tongue2: :tongue2: :tongue2:

Daniel.Hey Dex, you need to cut back on the caffeine, or is it Dexedrine? :biggrin:

[Moonbear]

Quite so; I hope to be able to explain that.
Just in advance, I think you'll get vexated with me and say:
"But that has nothing to do with being "gay", arildno!"..
Well, I guess that depends. If to you it feels like it has to do with your sexuality and feels somehow different than you suppose things feel to a heterosexual as they go about their day, then I can't argue over your own self-identity or self-perception. On the other hand, perhaps it is only through lack of communication among heterosexuals and homosexuals that you've come to believe your experiences are unique to homosexuals when they are really experienced by everyone. Or perhaps a woman can relate more than a man because we face similar obstacles in trying to get ahead when dealing with the "old boys' club," which sadly, does still exist.

We are probably assuming that the girls pick up the clues of polite non-interest in the same way that other gays would pick them up.
On this issue, we really should make things crystal clear as fast as is "possible" , I fully agree with you.

Well, it could be that "polite" non-interest still appears as more interest than the "rude" non-interest we get from an uninterested straight guy. Heck that polite non-interest appears as more interest than even an interested straight guy shows us right away. :rolleyes: Or, sometimes it can be interest in the conversation and as a potential friend rather than a sexual interest, and that's okay, but it's just nice to know that a bit sooner so we don't walk away feeling foolish for flirting all night with a gay man. :redface:

[Moonbear]

Just curious, what's the motivation to present this?
Maybe he's decided it's time to stop confusing the men he's been hitting on/drooling over for some time around here who started wondering if he was female. :tongue2: The only thing I hadn't been sure of was whether he was gay or bisexual.

[Dr.Brain]

Two gay men cant produce kids.No Fun. Though gayism is helpful for population control :approve:

BJ

[Astronuc]

Two gay men cant produce kids.No Fun. Though gayism is helpful for population control :approve:

BJNo, but a gay man (and his partner) could arrange for a woman to be artifically inseminated. Also, lesbian women can arrange for one of the male friends to donate sperm. It does happen.

Beyond that, gay and lesbian couples may adopt. There a plenty of children who need a loving family in which to live.

[arildno]

Okay, I'll continue, and here's the first point which I believe is quite differently experienced between straights and gays:
When a gay's feelings starts "awakening, then these are practically always regarded as "other", not parts of your self; they are not regarded as signs that you yourself is changing in any fundamental or frightening way.
You yourself doesn't change a bit by this new mental content.
(That is how it felt for me)

This is I believe, quite different from how the pubescent straight feels, as if she (or he) doesn't know herself anymore, she knows she's changing into someone else than who she was before.
It is, however, she who has these feelings, they are her.

Have a totally misperceived straights here?

[Evo]

Hey Arildno, well that explains why you never requested a second set of my nekkid pictues. :grumpy:

(can you send the first set back, you know, the ones I glued on the yule goat)

I've always had male best friends and a number of them are gay. You're my first Norweed though. :cool:

[arildno]

Hey Arildno, well that explains why you never requested a second set of my nekkid pictues. :grumpy:

That's how a very dumb gay man like me thinks he gives sufficient clues of polite non-interest. :rofl:

(What straight male wouldn't have nekkid pictures of Evo? :confused:)

[cronxeh]

pssht arildno.. umm could u click the forward button and umm.. send them over here.. thanks

[Moonbear]

Okay, I'll continue, and here's the first point which I believe is quite differently experienced between straights and gays:
When a gay's feelings starts "awakening, then these are practically always regarded as "other", not parts of your self; they are not regarded as signs that you yourself is changing in any fundamental or frightening way.
You yourself doesn't change a bit by this new mental content.
(That is how it felt for me)

This is I believe, quite different from how the pubescent straight feels, as if she (or he) doesn't know herself anymore, she knows she's changing into someone else than who she was before.
It is, however, she who has these feelings, they are her.

Have a totally misperceived straights here?

I can't speak for how straight boys becoming men feel, but I never experienced any feeling of changing into someone else or that I was suddenly different than I was before going through puberty. It's all a gradual process anyway. I always had boys as friends, so there was no sudden shift from hanging around with only girls to suddenly hanging around with the boys too. Now, I've heard people say things like, "I'm not sure who I am," or "I need to find myself," but that's not part of the "heterosexual" experience, that's just that some people are confused in general, and it's not a common thing at all, more the exception. At least for women, or those I know, the only thing that really marked rather suddenly an entrance into adulthood was the beginning of menstruation, but that happens whether you're straight or gay, and then it quickly is realized to be a royal nuisance more than some "mystical" right of entry into womanhood as some of our mothers try to trick us into believing before it happens.

[Evo]

This is I believe, quite different from how the pubescent straight feels, as if she (or he) doesn't know herself anymore, she knows she's changing into someone else than who she was before.
It is, however, she who has these feelings, they are her.It wasn't any "change" so to speak it was just a gradual strengthening of sexual attraction to boys, that started well before puberty, I just didn't know what the feelings were because I was too young. Little girls 6-10 also get "crushes" on movie and rock stars, etc... It's just a natural progression of one's self, if that is what you mean.

Have a totally misperceived straights here?I think it's a bit different for everyone.

When a gay's feelings starts "awakening, then these are practically always regarded as "other", not parts of your self; they are not regarded as signs that you yourself is changing in any fundamental or frightening way.
You yourself doesn't change a bit by this new mental content.
(That is how it felt for me)Can you clarify? When you say "gay's feelings starts "awakening, then these are practically always regarded as "other", not parts of your self", are you saying you have no innate sense of sexual fellings that you feel are a normal part of you? (forgive me if I am dense, my head still hurts)

[arildno]

Now, how could a boy ever start thinking and believing that his own emotions is not his own emotions, his own self??
It is a total and complete self-contradiction, but there you have it:
That's how I went through puberty; what "I" was, was a-sexual, not-yet heterosexual, the girl hadn't come along yet.
If you had asked me if I was gay, I would have answered with complete sincerity that I was not.
If you had asked me if I got excited at the thought of other boys, I would have lied and said no, because that could make you mistakenly believe that I was gay, something I wasn't (I know, it is totally ludicrous).

That is, I systematically deceived myself, those emotions which at times was the dominating mental content in my were explained away by me in the most ridiculous manner.

However, those emotions I had, was crystal clear and roared within me: They were from day 1 unwaveringly homosexual; the sole source of "confusion" was my consistent refusal to integrate them in my self-conception. I simply wouldn't budge, and hear the call.

Effectively, I stood in my mind on the outside of a vast furnace chamber encased in glass, where the fires leapt and roared within excitedly and excitingly growing stronger and stronger.

To realize you're gay is as simple as it is momentous:
It is to open the door into that chamber and walk in, or that the glass wall simply shatters.

And here's the thing:
Once that happened, something else I had never thought should happen as well:
Suddenly I understood what a zombie-like existence I had led earlier, I was totally drained of emotion in my daily life, all my mental energies had been used to keep that glass wall complete, what was left outside the chamber was merely a hollow shell who led a vegetative existence.
My puberty was therefore never to be rushed along this or that emotional high or low (which it seems to have been for straights), it was extremely dull, and it was only when I was animated by those fires that I truly understood that what I had shut off was simply my life-force, my identity as a human being. My sense-perception widened, and the ardour I used in schoolwork was equally drawn from that source.

Thus, a gay boy matures, I think quite differently from the straights, who in the frightening, but exhilarating ride have to sort out who they are to become; in me, it was effectively two clearly distinguished halves developing on their own who finally choose to clasp hands and become one.

The "fires" which to me is "self-evidently" gay due to the curious development I've been through, is none other than my life-force, my identity which is with me all day.
It does not mean I think about men all the time, my life-force has just some particular colour, even though the expressions of that life-force is differs widely over the day.


For straights, who evidently have a personal identity at least as strong as mine, I think their road to self-identity is quite different.
They build themselves up, I think, "piece by piece", rather than the way in which I've described my own road.

[wolram]

I know nothing about the subject, thats why i am reading this, i did know
one chap who was openly gay, and he was certainly a nice person.

[arildno]

I'm just about finished now; the "theory" is effectively contained in posts 1,19,29,35.

[Astronuc]

It wasn't any "change" so to speak it was just a gradual strengthening of sexual attraction to boys, that started well before puberty, I just didn't know what the feelings were because I was too young. Little girls 6-10 also get "crushes" on movie and rock stars, etc... It's just a natural progression of one's self, if that is what you mean.
Yeah - it was a natural progression with me. I had 'girlfriends' way before puberty - starting when I was 6. I even had crushes on some my female teachers and movie stars. I don't think though that it was sexual - there were no strong sexual feelings - it was more an affinity.

Puberty came along and the whole thing changed - relationships with girls involved strong emotions both ways and consequently the relationships were more complicated and intense. But at that point, I was really starting to think about getting married.

Most other boys at the time (ages 12-13) were just 'discovering' girls, something which I had figured out 6-7 years earlier.

If you had asked me if I got excited at the thought of other boys, I would have lied and said no, because that could make you mistakenly believe that I was gay, something I wasn't (I know, it is totally ludicrous).

That is, I systematically deceived myself, those emotions which at times was the dominating mental content in my were explained away by me in the most ridiculous manner.

However, those emotions I had, was crystal clear and roared within me: They were from day 1 unwaveringly homosexual; the sole source of "confusion" was my consistent refusal to integrate them in my self-conception. I simply wouldn't budge, and hear the call.

Effectively, I stood in my mind on the outside of a vast furnace chamber encased in glass, where the fires leapt and roared within excitedly and excitingly growing stronger and stronger.

To realize you're gay is as simple as it is momentous:
It is to open the door into that chamber and walk in, or that the glass wall simply shatters.

And here's the thing:
Once that happened, something else I had never thought should happen as well:
Suddenly I understood what a zombie-like existence I had led earlier, I was totally drained of emotion in my daily life, all my mental energies had been used to keep that glass wall complete, what was left outside the chamber was merely a hollow shell who led a vegetative existence.
It is not ludicrous at all. This is exactly what a number of gay friends have described.

Why do many gay men go through this. Probably it's because that's the way they learn in the culture. Most (if not all) parents assume their children are heterosexual - since in most cases the parent are heterosexual. It does happen that some men realize they are gay well after marriage and kids, and unfortunately those couples often divorce.

I think socialization is the key factor. Boys and girls are socialized according to cultural stereotypes.

At least that is my experience.

Teenage years can very difficult for gay and lesbian youth - because many in the larger culture disapprove of homosexuality.

[Evo]

Now, how could a boy ever start thinking and believing that his own emotions is not his own emotions, his own self??
It is a total and complete self-contradiction, but there you have it:
That's how I went through puberty; what "I" was, was a-sexual, not-yet heterosexual, the girl hadn't come along yet.
If you had asked me if I was gay, I would have answered with complete sincerity that I was not.
If you had asked me if I got excited at the thought of other boys, I would have lied and said no, because that could make you mistakenly believe that I was gay, something I wasn't (I know, it is totally ludicrous).

That is, I systematically deceived myself, those emotions which at times was the dominating mental content in my were explained away by me in the most ridiculous manner.I think I know what you're saying. You were raised as a "male" and normal expectations would be that you would grow up to sexually desire women. When that didn't happen for you, you dealt with your "normal" gay feelings by separating them from yourself because it didn't fit the image of what you had been taught would happen. I can see the confusion and the need to somehow deal with it.

However, those emotions I had, was crystal clear and roared within me: They were from day 1 unwaveringly homosexual; the sole source of "confusion" was my consistent refusal to integrate them in my self-conception. I simply wouldn't budge, and hear the call.This is why I think early exposure (on tv for example) of gays leading normal lives and having normal feelings can help teenagers that are gay realize that they don't have to separate their real feelings, that there is nothing wrong with how they feel. That they are normal.

And here's the thing:
Once that happened, something else I had never thought should happen as well:
Suddenly I understood what a zombie-like existence I had led earlier, I was totally drained of emotion in my daily life, all my mental energies had been used to keep that glass wall complete, what was left outside the chamber was merely a hollow shell who led a vegetative existence.
My puberty was therefore never to be rushed along this or that emotional high or low (which it seems to have been for straights), it was extremely dull, and it was only when I was animated by those fires that I truly understood that what I had shut off was simply my life-force, my identity as a human being. My sense-perception widened, and the ardour I used in schoolwork was equally drawn from that source.

Thus, a gay boy matures, I think quite differently from the straights, who in the frightening, but exhilarating ride have to sort out who they are to become; in me, it was effectively two clearly distinguished halves developing on their own who finally choose to clasp hands and become one.

The "fires" which to me is "self-evidently" gay due to the curious development I've been through, is none other than my life-force, my identity which is with me all day.
It does not mean I think about men all the time, my life-force has just some particular colour, even though the expressions of that life-force is differs widely over the day.Do you feel you gained more by going through the mental turmoil, or would it have been better to have known and accepted who you were sooner? Or is it impossible, now you've gone through this, to even look back and guess in hindsight?

For straights, who evidently have a personal identity at least as strong as mine, I think their road to self-identity is quite different.
They build themselves up, I think, "piece by piece", rather than the way in which I've described my own road.Yes, it's a much simpler path when you are just meeting expectations already set for you.

[arildno]

I quite agree, Astronuc; but just one thing here:

Let's take it as a given that we have a 98/02 distribution of straights/gays.

My contention is that no matter how supportive and gay-friendly a society becomes, the gay child will tend in the direction I described as my own way, whereas the straight will tend the other way.

I think that a major component in any child's psychology is the fear of being abondoned, not liked; and hence, however differently a child feels himself to be, there is a strong wish in him "to be like the others" (reducing chances of abandonment).
But that could well mean that a child who already as say 4-5 years old feels "different" in some indescribable, not necessarily bad way has a strong urge to be like the others, and when puberty arrives and emotions arrives which is known by him to be very different from those of most of his friends, then a practically automatic panic reaction sets in: I do NOT want to be THAT different, that is NOT me at all.
I.e, a gay child will spiral off in the direction I did, with due respect to individual differences and temperaments, of course.

[Astronuc]

I think that a major component in any child's psychology is the fear of being abondoned, not liked; and hence, however differently a child feels himself to be, there is a strong wish in him "to be like the others" (reducing chances of abandonment).

But that could well mean that a child who already as say 4-5 years old feels "different" in some indescribable, not necessarily bad way has a strong urge to be like the others, and when puberty arrives and emotions arrives which is known by him to be very different from those of most of his friends, then a practically automatic panic reaction sets in: I do NOT want to be THAT different, that is NOT me at all.

I.e, a gay child will spiral off in the direction I did, with due respect to individual differences and temperaments, of course.I quite agree. It is difficult to project how a 'gay-friendly' society would affect how gay/lesbian children develop, because we don't live in such a society. :frown:

The church and religious denomination with which I am affiliated does however work toward that goal. :smile:

I think I know what you're saying. You were raised as a "male" and normal expectations would be that you would grow up to sexually desire women. When that didn't happen for you, you dealt with your "normal" gay feelings by separating them from yourself because it didn't fit the image of what you had been taught would happen. I agree with Evo's point. Children are raised with certain expectations - especially based upon what they obseve their mom and dad, grandparents and other family members. Boys seem naturally to expect to be like their father, and girls seem naturally to expect to be like their mother. The 'natural' may be somewhat culturally arbitrary. To be different to what is expected of one by others can be very stressful.

[arildno]

Now, I didn't start this thread in order to tell a tale of woe and misery; rather, Iwas interested in hearing if there are psychological experiences by which straights and gays differ in their maturement, and hence, that we quite possibly might have rather divergent mentalities as adults.

Just one thing about "emotional turmoil":
It certainly didn't feel like I was going through an emotional turmoil which it was so evident to me that the others went through.
I felt my old self really, it was dull, the only puzzling aspect was all that mental content in me which I didn't think of as myself, yet which was deeply attractive nonetheless.
Thus, to me it was a revelation that I was gay;
I fell head-long in love more strongly than ever before, and couldn't understand how divine perfection could sit beside me in this totally ordinary class-room.
That is, effectively, I think my own emotions had matured a lot further before I embraced them than what is the case with the straights around me.

(they fell in love constantly, broke up after a day and would never ever speak to that horrible person again, and Mum was just awful today and so on..).

At the time I did embrace myself fully, I was 16, the hormones had settled somewhat relative to the period 12-14.

[Clausius2]

I cannot believe how the hell a man doesn't like women. Women are the sweetest thing on the world, no matter they result a bit expensive by the way....

Anyway, I sincerely belong to the group of people who thinks this behavior is not as "natural" as the relationship between a man and a woman. I do thing nature designed us and every alive being to reproduce and evolute its proper specie. Two men never could do that. If every men were gays, then our specie will dissapear soon. Besides it, accepting the gay behavior as a natural one implies we are accepting that part of our specie is unable to keep on reproducing. I do know this thinking could sound a bit primitive, but it's an scientific point of view. No matter we are too many people on Earth, each human being was primarily designed to mantain the specie and reproduce. From a biological point of view, what I have just mentioned is an essential characteristic of human beings.

I respect gays, and I don't think it's fair to discriminate them only by sexual issues. But I will never believe those who claim that two men having sex is as natural as a man and a woman doing so, understanding the word "natural" on
the broadest meaning. Also, there are two living ways for a gay. One is being discrete and behaving as an heterosexual, this kind of homosexual guys are elegant. The other one is going screaming over there the homosexual condition, and getting dressed ridicully as woman as someones make in parties and so. This last behavior degradates any gay fight against discrimination, because on this way all people laughs at them. If gay people want to fight for their rights, they must look like serious people, and not being over there dressed up in costumes.

By the way, if you're a gay and feel discriminated, please come to Spain. Zapatero is hearing the claims of gays. Spain has been the third? country who has approved the gay marriage. Unfortunately, Zapatero doesn't hear to the victims of terrorism, he doesn't hear to Catholics too, and he doesn't hear to normal workers. But you should know this kind of """"social advances"""" such as allowing gay marriage has the result of more votes in next elections. They are "effective measures".

[arildno]

Do you feel you gained more by going through the mental turmoil, or would it have been better to have known and accepted who you were sooner? Or is it impossible, now you've gone through this, to even look back and guess in hindsight?
I don't really know.
I never really felt ashamed of having those puzzling and deeply exciting fantasies (which wasn't me); I had made some truly ludicrous ways of explaining them away which actually made me feel smug in my supposedly pre-heterosexual life.

I didn't realize how deeply unhappy I'd been before I realized I was gay.
I thought I was quite happy, actually.
Yes, it's a much simpler path when you are just meeting expectations already set for you.
I'm not too sure it was that simpler for you; it seemed to me that you all went through these heart-wrenching episodes almost every day.
It actually felt like a "relief" to remain the dull, old, not-yet sexual me.

[arildno]

Clausius2:
To define the "meaning" of your own sexuality at the basis on what might happen two or three times in your life (i.e actually procreate) is rather wrong.
the "meaning" of your sexuality is what you in general get out of it in your daily life.

[Astronuc]

Now, I didn't start this thread in order to tell a tale of woe and misery; rather, Iwas interested in hearing if there are psychological experiences by which straights and gays differ in their maturement, and hence, that we quite possibly might have rather divergent mentalities as adults. I didn't see a tale of woe and misery as the reason for the thread. I just thought that there was something significant going on.

I think 'gays' and 'straights' do develop differently, mostly for reasons already discussed. However, I do not think this necessarily leads to "divergent mentalities as adults." It might, but not necessarily. Afterall, everyone develops differently.

As for turmoil - that was my teenage years. I was at odds with the 'world' and I still am, and most likely will always be. I was at odds with my parents in some cases, with the religion in which I was raised, with every political system that exists and ever existed, and with the culture in which I live in general.

I have never met any authority that didn't need to be challenged. That said, I have quite a few people in positions of authority who I deeply respect. They are often few and far between though. I also respect Greg, Warren, and the Supermentors who do a very good job of keeping PF running relatively smoothly! :smile:

I rage against the injustice, hypocrisy, inequality and stupidity that I see. But that's me, and it makes for an interesting life. :biggrin:

[Moonbear]

Now, I didn't start this thread in order to tell a tale of woe and misery; rather, Iwas interested in hearing if there are psychological experiences by which straights and gays differ in their maturement, and hence, that we quite possibly might have rather divergent mentalities as adults.

Just one thing about "emotional turmoil":
It certainly didn't feel like I was going through an emotional turmoil which it was so evident to me that the others went through.
I felt my old self really, it was dull, the only puzzling aspect was all that mental content in me which I didn't think of as myself, yet which was deeply attractive nonetheless.
Thus, to me it was a revelation that I was gay;
I fell head-long in love more strongly than ever before, and couldn't understand how divine perfection could sit beside me in this totally ordinary class-room.
That is, effectively, I think my own emotions had matured a lot further before I embraced them than what is the case with the straights around me.

(they fell in love constantly, broke up after a day and would never ever speak to that horrible person again, and Mum was just awful today and so on..).

At the time I did embrace myself fully, I was 16, the hormones had settled somewhat relative to the period 12-14.

Well, one of the trickier parts of this is that there is a lot of variation in age of puberty. Even among just straights, the age at which you enter puberty relative to your peers is going to affect your outlook on relationships. If someone enters puberty a bit later, after watching all their friends act all goofy with the emotional ups and downs of lust and attraction, they may be mature in going through that themselves, or, the first person going through puberty may be the one seemingly wiser in giving good advice to their peers who go through puberty later because they've sorted out all those feelings and had their hormones stabilize a bit sooner.

But, I see what you mean now about not feeling different. You somehow closed your emotions up, so didn't go through the emotional ups and downs, you just went through puberty in more of a detached emotional state than those boys who are jumping out of trees to "impress" the girls one moment and feeling down and mopey when they get ignored or called stupid the next.

What always puzzled me was the situation of the guy one of my friends dated in high school. He insisted he was straight, and dated several of the girls in high school, but unlike other boys, he seemed to prefer going shopping with them, or just holding hands. To the girls he was dating, he was the "perfect gentleman." I know I and a few others suspected he was gay from the day we met him, just something seemed "different" about him and the way he interacted socially, yet, he was dating the girls. Then in the summer before his senior year, he finally came to realize he was gay and came out in his senior year. So, some of your description here has helped finally explain what has puzzled me for a very long time, which was that I didn't understand how many of the rest of us were aware or suspected that he was gay but he himself wouldn't admit it and truly didn't seem to believe it. I think some of his ex-girlfriends were shocked by the news, but other than that, most of us just kind of had this reaction like, "How did you not know this before," or, "Why did you pretend to be straight when we asked if you were gay?" So, I'm actually really glad you finally explained that in a way that makes sense. I had always thought people just didn't admit it to others for fear of rejection, not that they didn't even admit it to themselves and were somehow in denial about it, not just to others, but even to themself.

[Clausius2]

Clausius2:
To define the "meaning" of your own sexuality at the basis on what might happen two or three times in your life (i.e actually procreate) is rather wrong.
the "meaning" of your sexuality is what you in general get out of it in your daily life.

I don't understand your point, and I don't understand why you adopted the word "meaning". Anyway, a sexual event between a man and a woman hasn't got the result of procreating every time. But that's because we use anticonceptive methods. It doesn't imply that the proper fact of such sexual moment is not to procreate. It's to procreate indeed, but voluntarily we don't want to do that. Nature didn't create sex to spend a great moment of pleasure only, the main mission of sex is to procreate. But we usually only chose one part of the movie, which is the pleasure moment it implies.

I prefer to talk you in a sincere way rather than saying politically correct stupidities which sound very good from a politician, but not from me. :smile:

[Astronuc]

Anyway, a sexual event between a man and a woman hasn't got the result of procreating every time. But that's because we use anticonceptive methods. It doesn't imply that the proper fact of such sexual moment is not to procreate. It's to procreate indeed, but voluntarily we don't want to do that. Nature didn't create sex to spend a great moment of pleasure only, the main mission of sex is to procreate. But we usually only chose one part of the movie, which is the pleasure moment it implies.

Being married as I am, most of the time it is for fun. My wife and I have had two children. She is now beyond child-bearing, so now sex is strictly for fun. :biggrin:

[Moonbear]

Anyway, I sincerely belong to the group of people who thinks this behavior is not as "natural" as the relationship between a man and a woman. I do thing nature designed us and every alive being to reproduce and evolute its proper specie. Two men never could do that. If every men were gays, then our specie will dissapear soon. Besides it, accepting the gay behavior as a natural one implies we are accepting that part of our specie is unable to keep on reproducing. I do know this thinking could sound a bit primitive, but it's an scientific point of view. No matter we are too many people on Earth, each human being was primarily designed to mantain the specie and reproduce. From a biological point of view, what I have just mentioned is an essential characteristic of human beings.
Actually, that's not a very good "biological" point of view. From a biological point of view, one recognizes that non-reproducing individuals in a social species can be highly advantageous. Consider colonies of ants. Only one female reproduces, the queen, the rest are workers that help care for the eggs and larvae and ensure the best chance of survival of those offspring. The same in bee colonies. The same occurs with other social mammals where one dominant female bears the litters and the other females and subdominant males are more like "aunts" and "uncles" that can provide a group effort in raising offspring rather than everyone having to manage to take care of their own. Considering how much effort and energy must be put into raising a human child from infancy to independent adulthood, having members of our society who are non-reproductive yet still feel a desire to nurture those young is beneficial. One doesn't even need to be gay to be non-reproductive. I'm quite straight, and love being around children, but if I never reproduce, I'll be quite content to lavish my nephew with all my love, or perhaps to adopt a child that a heterosexual couple produced yet was not sufficiently fit to raise.

[Clausius2]

Being married as I am, most of the time it is for fun. My wife and I have had two children. She is now beyond child-bearing, so now sex is strictly for fun. :biggrin:

Agreed. But if we want to speak about the naturality of a sexual event between two men, we must leave what we usually do and make scientific judgements. And the fact that nature designed the sexual act to procreate is one of them, despites we nowadays don't use it for that. But we have been using it for procreating during the last 100.000 years.

[Moonbear]

Nature didn't create sex to spend a great moment of pleasure only, the main mission of sex is to procreate.
If that was the case, then it makes little sense that women are sexually receptive at all times during their menstrual cycle. It seems there may be more reason for sex in humans, such as social bonding, than just procreation, or else we'd have as high of selection for an overt estrus at the time of ovulation, and only at the time of ovulation, as other mammalian species exhibit. Or, for that matter, when a woman is already pregnant, she will still have sexual desire. This would make no sense if the only purpose was procreation as she has already successfully accomplished that and cannot produce any additional children until the one gestating is born.

[Moonbear]

Agreed. But if we want to speak about the naturality of a sexual event between two men, we must leave what we usually do and make scientific judgements. And the fact that nature designed the sexual act to procreate is one of them, despites we nowadays don't use it for that. But we have been using it for procreating during the last 100.000 years.
Just because that is ONE function of sexual behavior, it doesn't mean it is the ONLY function.

[Clausius2]

Actually, that's not a very good "biological" point of view. From a biological point of view, one recognizes that non-reproducing individuals in a social species can be highly advantageous. Consider colonies of ants. Only one female reproduces, the queen, the rest are workers that help care for the eggs and larvae and ensure the best chance of survival of those offspring. The same in bee colonies. The same occurs with other social mammals where one dominant female bears the litters and the other females and subdominant males are more like "aunts" and "uncles" that can provide a group effort in raising offspring rather than everyone having to manage to take care of their own. Considering how much effort and energy must be put into raising a human child from infancy to independent adulthood, having members of our society who are non-reproductive yet still feel a desire to nurture those young is beneficial. One doesn't even need to be gay to be non-reproductive. I'm quite straight, and love being around children, but if I never reproduce, I'll be quite content to lavish my nephew with all my love, or perhaps to adopt a child that a heterosexual couple
produced yet was not sufficiently fit to raise.

I understand you, but I keep on thinking it's a right biological point of view. Nature always doesn't make the things right. Sometimes we have children given birth without arms, legs or with some discapacity or wrong deformation. Yeah, they are on earth, and they must be loved as any other human being. They must not be discriminated also. But that was not the original plan of nature for them. Nature wanted to enable them with full extremities, with full capacities, to be able to live in this ecosystem. I don't think those ants are the same thing than an homosexual human being. Sorry if I am being to unpolitically correct, but I usually talk clear as the fairly waters. :biggrin:

[Clausius2]

Just because that is ONE function of sexual behavior, it doesn't mean it is the ONLY function.

I haven't expressed it well. I do agree with you. Sex hasn't be designed only for procreate, but it's an essential factor in our lives, isn't it?. We wouldn't be talking if our fathers hadn't sex. If I had to put in order I would put to procreate as the main mission of sex, and next to it the human links as you pointed. This last point has recovered more importance in this last age, because we are less "animalized" than we were 100000 years ago. But the fact the time has passed and we are more civilizated doesn't exclude sex was originally and mainly planned to procreate in our early animal stages.

[juvenal]

As others have mentioned, it's extremely simplistic to reduce homosexuality to as simple as "The penis is designed to be inserted into a vagina and result in reproduction, and any sexual behavior that deviates from that is unnatural". Maybe you're right, to some extent, but so what? And where does one put masturbation, oral sex with a female, etc? How about artificial insemination?

How about any sort of non-sexual general behavior? Is there any point in classifying it as natural or unnatural? If I sit around all day watching football or playing video games, is that natural or not? It certainly doesn't help my reproductive chances.

[Clausius2]

Anyway, Arildno, you're now 34. Are you planning to adopt some child? That's another point I am interested to discuss. It has been too much polemic here about this stuff last days.

Again, my opinion is not going to like everyone, but I feel morally requested to expose it and not saying what is "correctly" seen by people who qualifies themselves as a modern one.

Here there has been a quarrel between those who didn't want to employ the word "marriage" in an union between two gays, and those (the government) who have accepted it in the classical way of the word. I don't care about the semantics. I do think that any union between two gays must have the same administrative rights than a marriaged couple of man-woman. To be sincere I am more concerned and afraid about the right of children adoption. I don't think current (spanish) society is prepared to accept a child whose parents are gays. I have been at school when I was a child, and we usually (as any other child) laugh at those who were rare (fat, wearing glasses, ugly...etc). Every children is cruel at their early stages, and if you don't believe it try to remind your school times or visit some class. If we had known some child whose parents were gays, we had been doubtless in laughing at them the most as possible. Children are so, and we cannot avoid it unless we initiate a campaign of education (which it has not being initiated). Therefore your child would be discriminated and feel himself far away from normality. Do you think this child is going to be happy with a gay couple?. Another point is the lack of a mother and the impact she has in our education and values.

[Danger]

There are studies showing that sexually dimorphic areas of the brain are more similar between heterosexual females and homosexual males than between heterosexual and homosexual males or females. These are areas of the brain that are influenced by hormones, both during early development and at/following puberty, though which comes first, the brain development or hormonal environment, I don't know.
I've read about that, but just now was struck by another thought. Arildno's description of the "self/not-self" sounds almost identical to my experience with the ADD. My mind would literally divide itself into as many as half a dozen different components and have conversations with itself. (And no component knew beforehand what another was going to say.) It just seemed to be my way of looking at all sides of an issue, but it stopped when I went on the antidepressants. While I'm certainly not suggesting that there is anything mentally wrong with gays, I wonder if there might be a difference in neurotransmitter production as well as the hippocampal etc. structures.
By the way, a lot of women are extremely attracted to gay men. Perhaps not the sort in everyday normal suburban lives, but certainly in the clubs and particularly with late teen-early 20's women.
Also, I have been hit on by several gay men. My response is the same as it is to unattractive women: it's flattering in a way, but I'm just not interested. Doesn't mean that I won't sit and have a beer with them.

[Gokul43201]

Okay, I'll continue, and here's the first point which I believe is quite differently experienced between straights and gays:
When a gay's feelings starts "awakening, then these are practically always regarded as "other", not parts of your self; they are not regarded as signs that you yourself is changing in any fundamental or frightening way.
You yourself doesn't change a bit by this new mental content.
(That is how it felt for me)

This is I believe, quite different from how the pubescent straight feels, as if she (or he) doesn't know herself anymore, she knows she's changing into someone else than who she was before.
It is, however, she who has these feelings, they are her.

Have a totally misperceived straights here?I think you have ... going entirely on the assumption that I'm not atypical in this way. Nothing in the "me"ness of me changed.

However, I do believe that many straights likely hold the view that this is not the case among gays. I think it is a not uncommon belief among straights, that a gay person goes through a "fundamental change" associated with the realizing of his/her gayness. While I see no reason for an intrinsic change, I certainly see the scope for a reaction (not just in behavior) to what might be the societal response or even to your own social conditioning; particularly in more conservative societies.

[Gokul43201]

Arildno, you seemed to have specific questions and points you wanted to address. The thread now seems to be sprouting tangents and drifting away along them. If you'd prefer the discussion be specific to your points raised in the OP, this thread should be moved. By opening the thread in GD, I'm assuming you do not have a problem with it running amuck, as it undoubtedly will.

[juvenal]

Just one more thought, and I'll stop hijacking: If all males on Earth suddenly became pious and decided to closely emulate the lifestyles of Jesus Christ or the Pope, that would wipe out the human population within 130 years, given their asexuality.

[Lisa!]

Hehe.. I think Dex has an insecure personality and Lisa is simply ignorant of certain things. There are a lot of homosexual behavior in the animal kingdom - and there are a lot of animals who have sex not to just reproduce but for pleasure - certain monkeys do it every other minute when they are bored, some do it anally - indiscriminate of the gender or method of delivery.
Hehe..I don'tthink your examples are important because they don't prove anything.I heard about examples in monkies but of course when I was studying about HIV!Who said these animals are normal!maybe it's a kind of sickness.And these people should try to cure their sickness!If scientists think like you , we'll be misrable!
some people are born blind!our Mr perfect cronxeh would search for some examples in animals and say there's no need to find a cure for that because we already have some cases in animals, so it's quite natural.
I would consider homosexuality as a normal thing, if they were able to have a child!So because they can't, I'll be a bit in doubt if it's natural!
It's natural, ok AIDS is a natural thing for humans as well.Who knows maybe HIV is their child!
I have no wish to talk about this subject anymore.So you could think I accept your opinion about homosexuality Mr. knowledgable! :grumpy: because I don't want to hear anymore about this subject!For me homosexuality=HIV!don't try to cure my phobia because you're not a psychologist! :wink:

[Gokul43201]

Hehe..I don'tthink your examples are important because they don't prove anything.I heard about examples in monkies but of course when I was studying about HIV!Who said these animals are normal!If you think homosexuality in the animal kingdom is restricted to sick monkeys with HIV, you are wrong.

Here are some of the animals that have been documented as practicing homosexual/transgender behavior :

# Acanthocephalan Worms # Acorn Woodpecker # Adelie Penguin # African buffalo # African Elephant # Agile Wallaby # Alfalfa Weevil # Amazon Molly # Amazon River Dolphin # American Bison # Anna's Humminbird # Anole sp. # Aoudad # Aperea # Appalachian Woodland Salamander # Asiatic Elephant # Asiatic Mouflon # Atlantic Spotted Dolphin# Australian Parasitic Wasp sp. # Australian Sea Lion # Australian Shelduck # Aztec Parakeet# Bank Swallow # Barasingha # Barbary Sheep # Barn Owl # Bean Weevil sp.# Bedbug and other Bug spp. # Beluga # Bangalese Finch (Domestic) # Bezoar # Bharal# Bicolored Antbird # Bighorn Sheep # Black Bear # Black-billed Magpie# Blackbuck # Black-crowned Night Heron # Black-footed Rock Wallaby # Black-headed Gull # Black-rumped Flameback # Black-spotted Frog # Black Stilt # Blackstripe Topminnow # Black Swan # Black-tailed Deer # Black-winged Stilt # Blister Beetle spp. # Blowfly # Blue-backed Manakin # Blue-bellied Roller # Bluegill Sunfish # Blue Sheep # Blue Tit # Blue-winged Teal # Bonnet Macaque # Bonobo # Boto # Bottlenose Dolphin # Bowhead Whale # Box Crab # Bridled Dolphin # Broad-headed Skink # Broadwinged Damselfly sp. # Brown Bear # Brown Capuchin # Brown-headed Cowbird # Brown Long-eared Bat # Brown Rat # Budgeriger (Domestic) # Buff-breasted Sandpiper... (source : Wiki article linked below)

I've still got 24 letters of the alphabet to cover, but I'm tired of formatting this stuff. The rest of the list may be found here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_animals_practicing_homosexual_behavior).

don't try to cure my phobia because you're not a psychologist! :wink:Cronxeh made no attempt whatsoever, to cure your phobia (http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=phobia&x=0&y=0). All he did was correct this patently false statement that you made :Maybe because it seems abnormal since there is no such a thing in nature for example about animals!when he responded with : ...Lisa is simply ignorant of certain things. There are a lot of homosexual behavior in the animal kingdom...

This thread is defeating its purpose by "living" in GD.

[Lisa!]

If you think homosexuality in the animal kingdom is restricted to sick monkeys with HIV, you are wrong.No,I don't think that!You can search through web and you'l find some articles about HIV and homosexuality!

Here are some of the animals that have been documented as practicing homosexual/transgender behavior :

# Acanthocephalan Worms # Acorn Woodpecker # Adelie Penguin # African buffalo # African Elephant # Agile Wallaby # Alfalfa Weevil # Amazon Molly # Amazon River Dolphin # American Bison # Anna's Humminbird # Anole sp. # Aoudad # Aperea # Appalachian Woodland Salamander # Asiatic Elephant # Asiatic Mouflon # Atlantic Spotted Dolphin# Australian Parasitic Wasp sp. # Australian Sea Lion # Australian Shelduck # Aztec Parakeet# Bank Swallow # Barasingha # Barbary Sheep # Barn Owl # Bean Weevil sp.# Bedbug and other Bug spp. # Beluga # Bangalese Finch (Domestic) # Bezoar # Bharal# Bicolored Antbird # Bighorn Sheep # Black Bear # Black-billed Magpie# Blackbuck # Black-crowned Night Heron # Black-footed Rock Wallaby # Black-headed Gull # Black-rumped Flameback # Black-spotted Frog # Black Stilt # Blackstripe Topminnow # Black Swan # Black-tailed Deer # Black-winged Stilt # Blister Beetle spp. # Blowfly # Blue-backed Manakin # Blue-bellied Roller # Bluegill Sunfish # Blue Sheep # Blue Tit # Blue-winged Teal # Bonnet Macaque # Bonobo # Boto # Bottlenose Dolphin # Bowhead Whale # Box Crab # Bridled Dolphin # Broad-headed Skink # Broadwinged Damselfly sp. # Brown Bear # Brown Capuchin # Brown-headed Cowbird # Brown Long-eared Bat # Brown Rat # Budgeriger (Domestic) # Buff-breasted Sandpiper... (source : Wiki article linked below)



Cronxeh made no attempt whatsoever, to cure your phobia (http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=phobia&x=0&y=0). All he did was correct this patently false statement that you made :when he responded with :

This thread is defeating its purpose by "living" in GD.Did you really understand me?When I said I have no more word about this subject and you could think I accept your idea!I meant disregard my post and continue your discussion.and you could think it's kind of phobia that I'm afraid of homosexuality!
I really appreciate it if someone trys to correct my mistake but it's strange when someone do it in this way "Hehe ...Lisa is certainly ignorant of certain things"!I didn't want to come through this thread as I told curious3141 "I'll take a look on your article" but I had to come and clear up things.we should be always open-minded but we have to be careful at the same time.who knows maybe it's a kind of sickness!personaly I have no problem with gays because of lots of reasons!
Thank you for your long list anyway. :smile:

[abhishek]

I concur with arildno for the most part. For myself, being bisexual, I experienced added confusion because of my misconceived perception of a neat dichotomy in hetero-homosexuality. Something else I would note is that in the absence of a substantial social life (being a geek :tongue2:), I found that my sexuality didn't interfere with it so much - or vice versa - so I managed to develop my identity "piece by piece".

For those who share the same opinions as Lisa!, I would like to point out just one thing: homosexuality doesn't equate to HIV; unprotected sex does. :smile:

[arildno]

Now, there were a few issues I would like to address concerning "divergent mentalities" as adults, but Moonbear raised a point about gays as "perfect gentlemen" who nonetheless were suspected as being gay before realizing they were.
I would say it is precisely because gays will tend to act like "perfect gentlemen" with women that the perceptive woman in some vague way understands that he is gay.
(I'll leave the whole biology issue aside for now.)

Gay men can (and do) become FOND of women, they can never, ever love them. To be fond of someone is a special form of friendship natural to all humans; we are fond of our old aunt, children running about, and fondness also extends beyond our race:
We are fond of our pets.

It is nothing inherently disrespectful about being fond of someone, but it is always coupled with, I think, a recognition that there is and remains a large gulf between yourself and the one you are fond of:
The deepest levels of intimacy cannot be fulfilled in either of you in a bond of fondness, but that isn't what you sought after in the first place either.

"Gentlemanliness" is, I think, the natural expression of fondness, and I think it is quite significant that women who has lived with a man who has later come out as gay usually describe him as a tender, gentle and very considerate lover (i.e, the perfect gentleman).

Really, ladies?
Gentle and considerate???
Sometimes I think these women have been frightened at the thought of Woman being released in her in a primal scream.
A gay man can never,ever bring out the Woman in her, he cannot drive her into any sort of ecstasy because he doesn't crave her, desire her; to him, sex with her will never be anything else than giving her a slightly different type of kiss on the cheek.

A gay man is, however, perfectly capable of making a woman comfortable, that is:
He is the perfect gentleman.

Thus, I think what the perceptive woman notices is that this man doesn't have it in him to make her deliriously happy or, for that matter, ragingly mad.
Effectively therefore, I think that a self-assured woman who knows what she wants will also extend fondness back to the gay man; there remains a gulf between them, but that's no reason not to have a pleasant chat together.

[arildno]

Anyway, Arildno, you're now 34. Are you planning to adopt some child? That's another point I am interested to discuss. It has been too much polemic here about this stuff last days.
Adopt a child???
Absolutely not!
If I am to have a child, it is to be my own biological child, sired in the old-fashioned way, to whose well-being and upbringing I would be fiercely committed.

Gays have, in general, no problem getting their machinery working around women.
It's easy (and mildly pleasant) to give anyone a kiss on the cheek; and that's effectively how the "act" will be to me.

If a lesbian I respected very much came to me and asked me to father a child, I would be deeply, profoundly touched by that, and might possibly consent to it.
In no way do I feel this is to compromise my self as gay, after all what I'm about to do is what straights love to say is why they have sex: I would have sex with her with the SOLE purpose of procreation.

[Spin_Network]

You've expressed yourself very eloquently. I've had a few gay friends (platonic, of course) in the past, they're nice guys and there was no difficulty in interacting with them. Maybe I just wasn't their type, who knows ? :biggrin:

I have not been particular to homo-sexual tendancies, I have been in the company of many gay people, and I can honestly state that it has been a privalage to have experienced their company and friendship, because they have the same interests and certainly moral(in some case's a higher moral opinion) issue's than everyday condacending folks.

If one has a interest in the whole social spectrum, in Nature and its functions for instance, then male gays and female gays, may be Nature's way of stemming the birthrate of our species,[ a sort of self sacrifice?] which is quite humbling from another Human perspective. Gay people may have been made?, been chosen, to be part of Human species that have a function of a collective self-creationary process?..and I say this with a hope that other people who discredit the Gay community, actually spend some time integrating and seeing the bigger picture?..and stem their prejudices and egotistical own problems.

I for one have been enlightened by comunication and friendship of a very important part of community life.

[Clausius2]

No matter what you want to be, you'll be always my on-line norwegian friend! :smile: :!!)

[Astronuc]

I am interested in what is meant by "divergent mentalities".

To be fond of someone is a special form of friendship natural to all humans; we are fond of our old aunt, children running about, and fondness also extends beyond our race. We are fond of our pets.

It is nothing inherently disrespectful about being fond of someone, but it is always coupled with, I think, a recognition that there is and remains a large gulf between yourself and the one you are fond of:
The deepest levels of intimacy cannot be fulfilled in either of you in a bond of fondness, but that isn't what you sought after in the first place either.

"Gentlemanliness" is, I think, the natural expression of fondness, and I think it is quite significant that women who has lived with a man who has later come out as gay usually describe him as a tender, gentle and very considerate lover (i.e, the perfect gentleman).

Sometimes I think these women have been frightened at the thought of Woman being released in her in a primal scream. A gay man can never,ever bring out the Woman in her, he cannot drive her into any sort of ecstasy because he doesn't crave her, desire her; to him, sex with her will never be anything else than giving her a slightly different type of kiss on the cheek.The same holds for heterosexual men.

I think what Moonbear is getting at is the fact that a gay man does not behave aggressively toward a woman, in general, but rather behaves in a gentlemanly way. On the other hand, I get the impression that far too many heterosexual men behave in a more aggressive manner.

At the risk of generalizing, I think single women are looking for that 'perfect gentleman' with whom they can develop a 'secure' relationship in which they can release that primal scream (I'm using arildno's words here). This is the basic mating pattern. If a woman is going to invest in a relationship in which she will bear children, I expect that she will want the man to be around for a long time - i.e. lifetime.

[arildno]

No matter what you want to be, you'll be always my on-line norwegian friend! :smile: :!!)
You shouldn't have posted that last smiley, Clausius..:wink:
It impels me to say you are the most handsome guy at PF (no, I have no trouble keeping my hands strictly on the keyboard; I'm interested in men I meet in real life and who are gay like myself).

But, you are simply spoken, God's gift to women.

[arildno]

I am interested in what is meant by "divergent mentalities".

The same holds for heterosexual men.

I think what Moonbear is getting at is the fact that a gay man does not behave aggressively toward a woman, in general, but rather behaves in a gentlemanly way. On the other hand, I get the impression that far too many heterosexual men behave in a more aggressive manner.

At the risk of generalizing, I think single women are looking for that 'perfect gentleman' with whom they can develop a 'secure' relationship in which they can release that primal scream (I'm using arildno's words here). This is the basic mating pattern. If a woman is going to invest in a relationship in which she will bear children, I expect that she will want the man to be around for a long time - i.e. lifetime.
From what I sense, it seems to me that women want to change their lover over time into that gentle, considerate lover, not have him from the very start.
I would think that women do want the impetuousness, impulsiveness and fierce, male passion for her in their lover during the beginning of their relationship (and that is something no gay man can ever provide her with).
That she also wants to get him under her thumb over the years is, of course self-evident..:wink:

[arildno]

Now, I'll briefly sketch what I mean by "divergent mentalities" (not in this post as such, but a necessary introduction).
In order to do so, I have to go back and describe in some further detail how it was for me to stand "outside" those roaring fires, or as Moonbear put it, having my emotions "bottled up".

Now, some has probably wondered; HOW could I possibly deceive myself in this manner?
For example, if I were in the physical presence of a sexy boy, wouldn't my clammy hands, the rythm of my heartbeat, the way I breathed, and how my hands trembled (and not the least, how my mind would be) just scream at me in completely unambigious manner that I was in love with him?

The answer in my case is that I never, ever felt any such symptoms when I was in the actual physical presence of them!
My heart-beat was perfectly normal, my hands didn't sweat overly, and I had no problem whatsoever turn my mind away from him.
The only whiff of sentiment I actually felt in the actual presence of these boys, was that I repeatedly caught myself looking at them, admiring their hair, the earlobe, how the held the pencil they were scribbling with and so on.
That is, all I felt in their actual presence was a mild, pleasing contentment in looking at their features. It was not at all difficult breaking my gaze, even though I might catch myself doing the same some time later.

Effectively, as I see it now, I held my body in an iron grip; it was not to feel any such symptoms at these times.
My emotions and bodily reactions were effectively delayed, and it was only at night-time, by myself when I visited that fire-chamber that I reveled in the play of the roaring emotions in me.

Now then, what about those unabashedly and unwaveringly homosexual fantasies I indulged in?
Shouldn't they have told me what was going on?

These, I were able to explain away in the strangest ways, and my trump card, the one feature of myself that kept me absolutely convinced I wasn't homosexual was that I didn't feel any fervent emotions towards boys when I was in their actual presence.


With this in mind, it is perhaps easier to realize what an earth-shattering experience it is to realize you're gay:
Suddenly your BODY roars into life; not only wishing to engulf the boy who you fell in love with, but you become positively drenched in all sort of sensations.
For example, now it was very easy to see what made a guy "hot" (actually, I was a bit ashamed of that, since then I wasn't "faithful")
But it meant also, that you suddenly felt the delight of soft rain on your cheeks and other such "non-sexual" events.

What you actually experience is what it means to be alive, and at the same time having the experience of what it means to be dead. I was finally free, and I had never known I was in prison.

Of course, it is a perfectly natural feeling that when you are in love with a particular individual, the whole world seems to brighten up.
But I do not think this feeling of prison walls shattering around you is an experience straights have had to the extent I, and other gays have had.
And that feeling, I think, is so crucial in the development of the gay mind that we effectively is sent off on a subtly different track than straights.
That's what I'll get to later.

[Curious3141]

Arildno, do you enjoy Clive Barker's writing ? I enjoy his horror, and also found his depictions of homosexual coupling to be fascinatingly descriptive and evocative (like in his story "In the Hills, the Cities"). I just assumed he was very empathetic. Of course, later he "came out". In hindsight, it should've been obvious.

[arildno]

Arildno, do you enjoy Clive Barker's writing ? I enjoy his horror, and also found his depictions of homosexual coupling to be fascinatingly descriptive and evocative (like in his story "In the Hills, the Cities"). I just assumed he was very empathetic. Of course, later he "came out". In hindsight, it should've been obvious.
I have read quite a bit of Clive Barker, yes; he's a great writer (I particularly enjoyed "WeaveWorld").
His "gay sensibility" is positively pounding throughout his works.
As I hope to show, is how such a sensibility can effectively be "born" out of realizing you're gay, but at the same time show that if we are to be really strict in our categories, it isn't a sensibility necessarily restricted to gays, it is just that the curious development of the gay mind will more easily develop along that track, i.e, it will be more prevalent among gays than straights.

[arildno]

Okay, I'll think I'll start sketching what I mean by diverging mentalities (finally).
These are, of course, only nuances, but all the same, I think there is some validity to it.
I'll start with a tendency in the "gay mentality", and weave into that how I sense the straight mind seems to work.

Now, having that experience of prison walls shattering about you, and suddenly realizing what it means to live, rather than to spend your existence as some pale wraith wandering aimlessly on a bleak shore (which is how your former "life" now appears), wouldn't it seem quite natural that an extraordinarily strong commitment is born that you will never, ever go back there, you will do your utmost to prevent the onset of deadening your own senses?

Furthermore, you will accept with a sense of gratefulness any flickering sensation that enlivens you and invigorates you.
This does not (necessarily) mean that you will not engage yourself in routine-work or chores, i.e, an aversion towards being "serious", but it does mean that you might wish to develop a skill of enjoyment at doing "serious" things.
That is, you are always "on watch" for any opportunity which might arise by which you might feel invigorated.
To me, for example, it seems that straights tend to the opinion "work is to be its own satisfaction", i.e, the invigorating source sustaining you through the work ought to be the work itself.
But to me at least, why can't say the hum of a bee, or a caught strain of a melody downstairs be sources of invigoration in your work as well?
It seems to me that gays tend to flick out their tongues to catch a clear drop of honeyed dew, savour it taste for a half-second, and then, invigorated, delve back into their work again.
It is, to my mind, nothing unserious or insincere about such attitudes, and it certainly won't necessarily reduce their work performance, it might enhance it.

[Astronuc]

From what I sense, it seems to me that women want to change their lover over time into that gentle, considerate lover, not have him from the very start.
I would think that women do want the impetuousness, impulsiveness and fierce, male passion for her in their lover during the beginning of their relationship (and that is something no gay man can ever provide her with).
That she also wants to get him under her thumb over the years is, of course self-evident..:wink: Gee, you're brave with that last statement. :rofl:

I would think that women want both simultaneously - the gentle, kind and considerate gentleman, who can be the impetuous and passionate lover - at the right time. But that's from a male perspective and I would appreciate the womens' perspectives.

Of course, that could also be the attitude of some males to woman. I think such an attitude to other people is destructive/counter-productive to a relationship.

I have never think that a woman would wish to have a man under her thumb - at least, I have never felt I was under any woman's thumb.

I always looked for relationships of mutuality and reciprocity - where both are equal partners.

[Astronuc]

Now, I'll briefly sketch what I mean by "divergent mentalities" (not in this post as such, but a necessary introduction).
In order to do so, I have to go back and describe in some further detail how it was for me to stand "outside" those roaring fires, or as Moonbear put it, having my emotions "bottled up".

Now, some has probably wondered; HOW could I possibly deceive myself in this manner?
For example, if I were in the physical presence of a sexy boy, wouldn't my clammy hands, the rythm of my heartbeat, the way I breathed, and how my hands trembled (and not the least, how my mind would be) just scream at me in completely unambigious manner that I was in love with him?

The answer in my case is that I never, ever felt any such symptoms when I was in the actual physical presence of them!
My heart-beat was perfectly normal, my hands didn't sweat overly, and I had no problem whatsoever turn my mind away from him.
The only whiff of sentiment I actually felt in the actual presence of these boys, was that I repeatedly caught myself looking at them, admiring their hair, the earlobe, how the held the pencil they were scribbling with and so on.
That is, all I felt in their actual presence was a mild, pleasing contentment in looking at their features. It was not at all difficult breaking my gaze, even though I might catch myself doing the same some time later.

Effectively, as I see it now, I held my body in an iron grip; it was not to feel any such symptoms at these times.
My emotions and bodily reactions were effectively delayed, and it was only at night-time, by myself when I visited that fire-chamber that I reveled in the play of the roaring emotions in me.
arildno - if I change 'boy' to 'girl/woman', and and otherwise change 'gay' to 'straight' and 'homosexual' to 'heterosexual', my experience with regard to realizing my sexuality (as regards females) is not so different than your experience (as regards males).

I was reserved - I held myself in check. So you and I are not that different or divergent. I think it more the case that my situation is considered 'normal' by the majority in the culture, while your situation is not.

On the other hand, being gay is 'normal' for a gay person, as much as being me is 'normal' for me.

An amusing anecdote - I did once experience a situation when I had sweaty palms, nausea and my pulse rate hit 180 beats/minute. That was when I asked a certain girl to go with me to my graduation prom (dance) in high school - just before I phoned her. That was so unusual, I was stunned by the experience. Fortunately, she did say yes. :biggrin:

[Clausius2]

But, you are simply spoken, God's gift to women.

Thanks man :blushing: . But you should let them know it. It seems they haven't realised of that yet. :cry:

[arildno]

I have never think that a woman would wish to have a man under her thumb - at least, I have never felt I was under any woman's thumb.
I think your wife is quite satisfied at how you've turned out..:wink:

Anyhow, yes, what I describe ARE nuances rather than complete and total opposites; however I do think that some features will spread out more prevalently in one part of the population than in the other. That does not mean there won't be any individuals on the other side of the fence who haven't had rather similar experiences.

Human psychology is damned tough..

[arildno]

Thanks man :blushing: . But you should let them know it. It seems they haven't realised of that yet. :cry:
The first step is to realize it yourself and ease up. Don't act desperate as if you need her to give some meaning to your life (that signifies you haven't got anything to give her back), be confident in that you, exactly you, have more than enough to give her, be generous in giving of yourself towards her.

Of course, rudeness is an absolute no-no, but through your posts at various times it is totally obvious you would never, ever be rude and insensitive towards a woman.
I wish you the very best of luck, you deserve that.

[Astronuc]

I think your wife is quite satisfied at how you've turned out..:wink:

Anyhow, yes, what I describe ARE nuances rather than complete and total opposites; however I do think that some features will spread out more prevalently in one part of the population than in the other. That does not mean there won't be any individuals on the other side of the fence who haven't had rather similar experiences.

Human psychology is damned tough.. :rofl: My wife is a psychology major, so that probably helps. :rofl:

[arildno]

:rofl: My wife is a psychology major, so that probably helps. :rofl:
I shrivel at the thought of her..





Not really; but it was a nice and stereotypical statement from my part, don't you think?

[Astronuc]

I took it as such - :rofl:

She is very cool, and a lot of fun. :smile:

And most importantly - she still puts up with me after 25 years (married 23+ years). :biggrin:

[arildno]

Yes, she's made a very cute teddy-bear out of you, hasn't she? :wink:

Now, she can have you strictly for fun, none of that reserved guy left, right?

[Astronuc]

I don't know about cute, but I am cuddly. :biggrin:

We have our passionate moments! :biggrin:

[AKG]

Okay, I'll continue, and here's the first point which I believe is quite differently experienced between straights and gays:
When a gay's feelings starts "awakening, then these are practically always regarded as "other", not parts of your self; they are not regarded as signs that you yourself is changing in any fundamental or frightening way.
You yourself doesn't change a bit by this new mental content.
(That is how it felt for me)

This is I believe, quite different from how the pubescent straight feels, as if she (or he) doesn't know herself anymore, she knows she's changing into someone else than who she was before.
It is, however, she who has these feelings, they are her.

Have a totally misperceived straights here?Probably. In my experience, it was nothing strange. Actually, I think being straight, you're surrounded by a lot more straight influences. You know some things about sex and stuff like that before you actually go through puberty, so the change doesn't really seem like a distinct change. We're probably conditioned to want to have sex with girls before we actually feel the instinctual desire, so when we do, it's not as shocking.

[arildno]

Probably. In my experience, it was nothing strange. Actually, I think being straight, you're surrounded by a lot more straight influences. You know some things about sex and stuff like that before you actually go through puberty, so the change doesn't really seem like a distinct change. We're probably conditioned to want to have sex with girls before we actually feel the instinctual desire, so when we do, it's not as shocking.
My point was that you were never in doubt that your feelings were YOUR feelings, however much they changed (or possibly, didn't change) you. (Were you in doubt?)

I thought mine weren't mine, and that's the basic point I was trying to convey.

[AKG]

I see. Yeah, I think I would have felt them to be my feelings.

[Astronuc]

My point was that you were never in doubt that your feelings were YOUR feelings, however much they changed (or possibly, didn't change) you. (Were you in doubt?)

I thought mine weren't mine, and that's the basic point I was trying to convey.OK, now I understand the point clearly. My feelings have always been my feelings - although I certainly questioned whether my feelings where right or appropriate (well I question everything anyway - Asperger's perhaps - busy mind) - they were nevertheless my feelings.

I'll check with some friends to see if they had similar experience.

[arildno]

It was certainly a bit extremely put from my side. A slightly more accurate way of saying it is, is that what I did feel when I allowed myself to feel was "not really" homosexual feelings, but in some rather convoluted manner heterosexual feelings.

I.e, the unwaveringly clear feelings were seen by me, in the explanatory aftermath, as "untrue", they were always some sort of disguised heterosexual feelings.
Thus, the homosexual "surface" feelings weren't really mine at all; they were sham feelings that didn't truly belong to or define ME (even though they excited me deeply).
That is, I refused to integrate the unabashedly homosexual MENTAL CONTENT into my self-conception. That content hadn't truly in any essential manner anything to do with me. It was something "other" which would surely disappear once Miss Right made her entrance (and in my mind, those fantasies were "truly" signalling her coming in a disguised manner, rather than that they told me what they actually told me, namely that I was sexually attracted to other boys).

It is, for example, perfectly possible to regard yourself as a normal heterosexual boy even as you yelp in delight at the thought of another boy playing the "active" part, and that the excitement you feel of you and him together is just a disguised message of your own heterosexuality. That's how deep self-deception may work, how thoroughly it can twist your mind.


It may well be that other gays didn't manage to fool themselves so far; I'm not particularly intelligent..

[JamesU]

INTRODUCTION:
As a gay man, I've often wondered why it seems so difficult for straights to understand what we mean by having a "gay identity" that to me is a perfectly natural, keen sense of being; an abiding tune if you like, a humming in me at all times.

The almost universal reaction from straights is that we mean something like having explicit sexual fantasies about members of our own sex, i.e, that we are referring to our specific mode of arousal.
By this reaction, straights have totally missed the mark, or at least, deeply misconstrued the whole issue.

Another typical reaction is that perhaps we gays go about with a sense of being different, i.e, that we have a sort of perpetual outcast feeling within us that drives us into each others arms to huddle together for some time and gain respite from a hostile world around us.
This last attempt from (usually sympathetic, but pitying) straights to understand us is however, utterly false:
Rather than being an ever-present sense of inadequacy, my "gayness" is a sense akin to that of achieved wholeness and self-sufficiency, that is, intimately and irrevocably entwined with my sense of independent adulthood, and yes, pride and self-confidence.


I am as utterly and totally gay when I inhale a fresh batch of cool morning air as when I am deeply intimate with another man.
Such a statement will most usually be met with headshakes and stares of blank incomprehension from straights.

To me, at least, it has been very puzzling that there doesn't seem to exist a similar sense of "straightness".
Lately, however, as I've pondered these various issues again, I think I've found a way to describe this, and I hope you'll join me and read on since I think I've also figured out a few bits about you straights which might be of interest to yourselves.

I have headed the thread with a reference to the moment when you REALIZE you're gay, perhaps the most defining moment in a gay man's life, and that should not be confused with the moments you start having sexual fantasies about or encounters with boys/men, nor about coming out as gay.

As I see it now, gays and straights go through totally different maturation processes towards adulthood leading to quite strongly divergent mentalities, which makes "understanding" very hard, and probably can't ever be achieved fully.

So, in the spirit of attempting the impossible anyway, my next post will involve describing these maturation processes as I see it now.
I will, of course, be delighted if someone actually reads this thread and posts intelligent comments, even if it should happen that those comments reduces my beautiful theory about distinct maturation processes to shambles..

(Perhaps this thread ought to be moved from GD to "Social Sciences", or possibly, the philosophy forums)

I was shocked to read this post. arildno just didn't seem like the person to have that um...lifestyle.

[hypatia]

Most of my friends who are gay, have known they were gay from the time they were small children. I know for some it was a struggle to conform to hetero society, tho they gave it there best shot. I can only imagine how hard life was for them at that time. Today they move around society with relative ease, but sill keep in mind, of the places they must avoid.
We have a gay couple who moved onto my block a few years ago. And my other neighbor was so stupid as to say to me, " As long as they stay away form my children, I'm fine with it". I had to laugh, her children are female. :rolleyes:

[Moonbear]

I think what Moonbear is getting at is the fact that a gay man does not behave aggressively toward a woman, in general, but rather behaves in a gentlemanly way. On the other hand, I get the impression that far too many heterosexual men behave in a more aggressive manner.

At the risk of generalizing, I think single women are looking for that 'perfect gentleman' with whom they can develop a 'secure' relationship in which they can release that primal scream (I'm using arildno's words here). This is the basic mating pattern. If a woman is going to invest in a relationship in which she will bear children, I expect that she will want the man to be around for a long time - i.e. lifetime.
Well, since I seem to have been unclear, rather than leaving anyone guessing, my friend's gay boyfriend was the "perfect gentleman" in that he was content to hold hands, go shopping, listen to her, go out on all sorts of fun dates, and never once pressured her to have sex. Well, it's pretty obvious why once it was revealed that he's gay, he had no sexual feelings for her, just that deep fondness Arildno talks about.

With heterosexual men, even when they are being gentlemen and not pressuring a woman into anything, there is still a sort of sexual tension present, something in the flirtation, the way they hold hands, etc, that is apparent to a woman once she gets to know him (it's not apparent immediately, at least not to me). For example, when you hold hands, a straight man might give a woman a little squeeze or caress her palm, or entwine his fingers with hers, but if a woman holds hands with a gay man, it's like holding hands with another woman or your brother or father, you may playfully swing your arms, but your hands are just there, no squeezes or tickles or rubbing. But, to a high school girl who doesn't know any better yet, he's just a refreshing break from all the rude boys who try to get away with anything they can before they've matured enough to know that's not what women want in a long-term relationship.

[ron damon]

Realizing you're gay: What is meant by that?

that you have very bad taste? :biggrin: Frankly, I'm surprised even women find men attractive :smile:

[Astronuc]

Well, since I seem to have been unclear, rather than leaving anyone guessing, my friend's gay boyfriend was the "perfect gentleman" in that he was content to hold hands, go shopping, listen to her, go out on all sorts of fun dates, and never once pressured her to have sex. Ah, that's the way I behaved with women when I was single. I never pressured any woman to have sex, actually it was the other way around for me - the girls/women were the ones who initiated physical contact or mentioned anything sexual.

I wanted no ambiguity in a relationship - I wanted the girl/woman, at the time, to know without a doubt that I was not interested in her solely for sex, but I was interested in her as a whole person - particularly with respect to her thoughts and feelings. A relationship between a man and woman is so much more than sex, and in fact being in a mature marriage (in my case, now with two teenagers) sex is a small component.

When I was single, my issue was and still is, that sex belongs within a committed relationship. I waited for the right woman to come along, and my wife has been my one and only initimate partner.

With heterosexual men, even when they are being gentlemen and not pressuring a woman into anything, there is still a sort of sexual tension present, something in the flirtation, the way they hold hands, etc, that is apparent to a woman once she gets to know him (it's not apparent immediately, at least not to me). For example, when you hold hands, a straight man might give a woman a little squeeze or caress her palm, or entwine his fingers with hers, but if a woman holds hands with a gay man, it's like holding hands with another woman or your brother or father, you may playfully swing your arms, but your hands are just there, no squeezes or tickles or rubbing. When I was in my early teens (actually pre-teens as well), the girls were the ones who initiated 'making out', and that was as far as it went. However, in my late teenage years and early 20's, I was always careful not to encourage any woman - well, that is, until I met the woman I married. :smile:

[arildno]

I was shocked to read this post. arildno just didn't seem like the person to have that um...lifestyle.
What the heck do you think you know about my "lifestyle"??
I haven't revealed a damn thing about how I live my personal life, nor will I ever do, because that is personal on a level I'm not interested in revealing.
To say that you are "gay" is a lot less revealing about your person than to say you've been married for 25 years.

That you think it is very revealing is because you go about with a lot of fantasies and prejudices in your head which you think describes how "they" live.

[arildno]

that you have very bad taste? :biggrin: Frankly, I'm surprised even women find men attractive :smile:
Give me a sharp, jagged, angled body not quite fitting together due to all that ferocity straining to get free. What should I do with a soft, curved pillow-body seamlessly joined together? :confused:

[arildno]

Most of my friends who are gay, have known they were gay from the time they were small children. I know for some it was a struggle to conform to hetero society, tho they gave it there best shot. I can only imagine how hard life was for them at that time. Today they move around society with relative ease, but sill keep in mind, of the places they must avoid.
We have a gay couple who moved onto my block a few years ago. And my other neighbor was so stupid as to say to me, " As long as they stay away form my children, I'm fine with it". I had to laugh, her children are female. :rolleyes:
Oh, I've known I've been DIFFERENT from other boys all my remembered life (say from the age of 4-5).
Now, I was never a girlish boy, I could never understand this fascination/repulsion thing other boys seemed to have towards girls.
I was totally indifferent to girls, and wanted to spend my time being with boys, like playing cowboy/indian, police/robber, football and all sorts of other boys' things. My boys' world was complete, and I was rather puzzled that the other boys seemed to need some sort of contact with girls as well.
And yes, there were times as a child when I thought of one friend as a more "special" friend than the others, even though I would be hard put to tell why I thought him special and wanted to be with him a lot more.

So, in that sense, now in the aftermath, I would say that I've been gay all my life, even as a child.

[arildno]

Now, although it was a few other things I would have liked to have mentioned ,particularly on how I perceive straights to tend to think and the whole biology issue, I think it is about time to close off this particular thread.
There is, however, one rather important issue I'd like to broach, namely how different the roads to maturity gays experienced due to their different individualities.

I have, naturally enough, the best (least bad?) insight in how my road was; I would like to sketch how this contrasts with, but also has some similarities with how many other gays have experienced growing up.

Essentially, whereas my road was that of having to REALIZE I was gay, for many others, the dominant aspect was always that of ACCEPTING they were gay.
(And the individual gay's road will be some sort of mixture in between)
That is, whereas I had effected a sort of dissociation between my self and my emotions and was as it were, also totally out of touch with my own body, many other gays knew exactly what they were, how they felt, how their bodies reacted and struggled mightily to effect that dissociation I had undergone. That is, they were living in an emotional turmoil with intense, clearly recognized sexual desires coupled with bouts of severe self-condemnation.
For all purposes, they were already burning in hell, and wanted to get out of there by any means possible.
Finally though, many find out that it is their fundamental nature they are struggling with, being gay is absolutely natural to them, and that to try to be something else could at best be a state of self-castration (i.e, effectively where I was), or remain in permanent pain.

Note that a similarity between my own experience and these folks' experience is that when we finally understand or accept ourselves, the most striking, forceful aspect for us is how SELF-EVIDENT it becomes to us that we are gay, how deeply NATURAL it is to us.
That realization, or acceptance if you like, the experience of the self-evidence of our gay nature is, I think a lot stronger integrated in our adult identity sense than the straightness is integrated in heterosexuals.


You never went through this weird type of individual struggles against your own nature, you blossomed in a gradual manner quite distinct from the manner of gays.

Thus, I think it is natural, for example, that straights tend to think of their own sexuality as a distinct aspect of their own personalities (the most cherished flowers in them, perhaps), whereas gays have a tendency to think of their sexuality more like their life's essence even when sex is the furthest thing from their mind.

That, basically, was what I meant with "divergent mentalities", or at least, some of it.

[Zygotic Embryo]

" i can tell you straight away"

lmao @ the wordplay

I understand what you mean man


Some people are just to damn caught up in themselves to look at someone, and identify them as gay, instead of getting to know you and see who you really are, i mean theres a big diffrence between gay and straight men.. but it's skin deep thats it. ( unless it's sexual lol )

I knowing a couple gay men, and I have no problem just chillen and hanging out with them in public. Cause there fun to be around..and im not classifying them, when i say " there".


I respect your ability to be so opened with people about these issues

stay up.

[arildno]

I'm glad you're mature enough to see that there are as many differences among gays as there are among straight, and that you can enjoy yourself in either 's company (within limits, of course..:wink:)

However, it might still be the case that there are some personality traits which are more commmonly found on one side of the fence than the other, and that that might be related to different experiences in growing up.

For example, take the case of gay men being "funny", jesters and such like.
It might be that since many gay men have had rather harrowing experiences in growing up, this may have born a commitment of having "a good time" on average stronger than that of "normal" straights. That is, they work harder at getting a good time, on average.

Note that there wouldn't really be anything necessarily "gay" about this; it is not uncommon that persons who have gone through a harrowing, life-threatening illness and who got well again say that they are now really appreciating what they were about to lose, and that they become more committed at living a "good" life than they were before.

[fuzzyfelt]

Very courageous, and I can imagine your relief.

[QUOTE=arildno] there are some personality traits

One of my gay friends rues missing out on the neatness trait. :smile:

[fuzzyfelt]

Can you tell me one thing, it seems to me that the proportion of exceptional people throughout history (eg some of my favourites, Leonardo, Michealangello, Caravaggio...) and today who prefer their own sex far outweighs the given distribution of gay/straights, am I stereotyping or do you think this is right, and if so why?

[arildno]

Can you tell me one thing, it seems to me that the proportion of exceptional people throughout history (eg some of my favourites, Leonardo, Michealangello, Caravaggio...) and today who prefer their own sex far outweighs the given distribution of gay/straights, am I stereotyping or do you think this is right, and if so why?
I think that gay men in particular have to a larger extent than the rest of the population cultivated their ability to take a delight in simple, sensory perceptions.
With that, I mean that you will more often find that gays are likely to take a (ultra-)short break from what they do, and savour say, a fresh scent in the air, humming a long a bit on a caught strain from a melody coming up from downstairs, and that they get invigorated by these short breaks before delving back in what they are doing.

This ability to let yourself be invigorated by whatever small break of monotony you experience can be regarded as the "constructive" side of the often levelled charge against gays that they are "flighty, scatter-brained".
It doesn't at all have to mean an inability to do solid work, but it might certainly mean, on occasion, that doing solid work becomes less of an onerous "duty".


In so far as this is true, I think it might have something to do with that a "healed" gay man (i.e, who has realized and accepted he's gay after an harrowing youth) is perhaps more likely to cherish those moments of happiness he senses present themselves to him.

Furthermore, I think this enhanced receptivity to sensory beauty might well be regarded as a sort of "aestheticism".
I think, however, it is more true to say that gays are more naturally inclined to appreciate art, rather than to say that they are better at making art.

[fuzzyfelt]

I was thinking of exceptional in other ways besides art, just that art naturally springs to my mind. I should have listed non-artists too.
I do take your point regarding gay aestheticism. Prior to reading your thread I had idly put this down to diverted creativity- creating masterpieces or creatively enjoying them, rather than creating kids!

[arildno]

. Prior to reading your thread I had idly put this down to diverted creativity- creating masterpieces or creatively enjoying them, rather than creating kids!
:rofl:
You know, I hadn't thought of that angle!
It might well be something in it..

[lwymarie]

I don't care about the gender of ppl... as I live in the Net....

[Zygotic Embryo]

OF course, theres going to be certain gestures said.

Everyone is entitled to there own opinion man, you can only hope that people mature and realize, if there sexuality is gay and it makes them happy then so be it. Instead of saying ''oh he's gay.. hence he's going to try and be gay around me and hit on me.. i better stay away from him.'' Appreciate what the gay man's got to offer lol.
Hell, i know this one guy who happened to be gay, in some short shorts beating everyone one on one in a game of basketball. Being gay has nothing to do with personality i think, it's only made to seem that way. Not every gay man has to be into the arts, but alot of them are.

[arildno]

I almost don't disagree with you.

However, since our personalities aren't wholly static from our birth (various traits becoming stronger or weaker as a result of individual life experiences and life-choices), consider the following scenario:

Take two guys who start out with basically the SAME personality, one gay, the other straight.
What I suggest, is that since their EXPERIENCES through adolescence will typically be quite strongly different from each other (due to discovery of different sexual orientations), then that difference might cause their adult personalities to diverge even though they started out equal.

I have tried, possibly unsuccessfully, to indicate somewhat more concretely what that might mean. Of course, if, for example "artistic leanings" is totally foreign to the personality profile they had in common originally, then neither the gay or straight guy will develop in that particular direction.

That other major different experiences (like the death of a parent, or a really lucky break with your first job) might have at least as much to say than their realization of different sexualities, is of course not denied either; I've tried to identify what diverging trends we might get, given "all other factors being equal".