Poker

[Physics_wiz]

So, I learned this new poker thing a year ago. Long story short, I'm sure I can money playing it. The only thing I'm concerned with is the morality of the game. What do you think? Bad? Good? Neither? I'm Christian, but I really don't think the Bible says anything about it. If you're atheist then I guess the game isn't "bad" because if someone doesn't know how to play they will lose their money no matter what...to you or someone else. Any advice would be appreciated.

[Smurf]

don't get into gambling. That's my advice.

[revelator]

Don't play poker for the sake of gambling, play poker because it's a helluva fun game.

[Evo]

don't get into gambling. That's my advice.Good advice.

[Physics_wiz]

Poker is fun but that's not really why I play it, I mostly play it for the money.

A bit of a background: I'm a math guy. For some reason, math is actually fun for me and I'm pretty good at it. I'm taking calc 4 in the fall and looking forward to it..might also get a math minor.

Poker is nothing but drawing cards from a deck which is basically probability. I'm not a guy who would just go throw his money away without knowing where it's going so I made sure I understand what I'm doing before I played poker for real money. I've played about 20,000 hands so far and made a good amount of money, so I am pretty sure I can make a bit of money doing this.

I guess poker can't escape from being classified as "Gambling" because it's actually risking money to get more money based solely on chance. However, unlike most other forms of gambling, you can give yourself an edge. I don't know of any other gambling game where you can give yourself an edge (blackjack, roulette, etc...all favor the house mathematically). You might say that there are two important unknown variables in poker (opponents' cards and opponents' future actions) and without knowing those you can't give yourself an edge. But, opponents' cards can also be taken care of using probability and opponents' future actions are usually unkown but the edge you give yourself using math takes care of that and then some. Also, I don't play the poker you see on tv where a guy can get lucky and double up or get unlucky and lose. I play limit (every bet is a fixed amount) where the math factor is a lot more important and basically takes over the game in the long run.

The problem is, I thought a bit about the concept of poker and it's basically just taking money from other people because you know more than they do. That's it...no more...no less. I feel bad sometimes when I take money from guys who are just throwing their money away and really don't know what they're doing. Pretty much all other jobs are getting money in an exchange for a service you give, but poker just isn't like that. I can't say that it's easy or that it's "making money the easy way", since if you really know what you're doing and are making enough money it won't be easy. I am not planning to play poker for a living or anything like that but just until I finish college, it could make for a good hobby.

[Smurf]

Fine don't take my advice. But don't expect me to let you move back in when you're 40 and bankrupt with no degree because you dropped out of school because of a drug addiction and owed money to gangs for gambling away money you don't have!

[mattmns]

If you're atheist then I guess the game isn't "bad" because if someone doesn't know how to play they will lose their money no matter what...to you or someone else.
Are you implying that Atheists do not care about morals? I would ask your minister about the christian morality view.

[Physics_wiz]

Fine don't take my advice. But don't expect me to let you move back in when you're 40 and bankrupt with no degree because you dropped out of school because of a drug addiction and owed money to gangs for gambling away money you don't have!

Ha! I can assure you that's not gonna happen.

Are you implying that Atheists do not care about morals? I would ask your minister about the christian morality view.

My bad :shy: That's not what I meant at all. I shouldn't have brought religion into this in the first place. Please ignore the religion part.

[ek]

Poker's not gambling unless you suck.

I've played poker 10-20 hrs/week (including live and online) for a year now and I've never had a losing week.

I've never had a job, and have already made enough money to pay for my first two and a half years of university. I plan to get the third year "paid off" (money in my bank) by Christmas. My fourth year money will be completed by this time next year or sooner. So I will have all the money I need for my undergrad degree before I turn 19, all because of poker. Is poker gambling? Not for me it isn't.

[closure]

Poker's not gambling unless you suck.

I've played poker 10-20 hrs/week (including live and online) for a year now and I've never had a losing week.

I've never had a job, and have already made enough money to pay for my first two and a half years of university. I plan to get the third year "paid off" (money in my bank) by Christmas. My fourth year money will be completed by this time next year or sooner. So I will have all the money I need for my undergrad degree before I turn 19, all because of poker. Is poker gambling? Not for me it isn't.

Great! Would you please teach me about the poker? It is the first time to hear of it. Why every guy win, nobody lost momey? It is amazing

[Pengwuino]

Go play. Soon enough you'll either become a decently wealthy card shark or wind up broke. Remember, for every successful poker player, theres probably a few hundred who failed and the math behind the game isnt exactly hard to grasp.

[whozum]

Only people who aren't good at poker see it as a game of probability. Poker is a game of skill. It's not the cards that empower the player, but the player that empowers the cards.

[Pengwuino]

Only people who aren't good at poker see it as a game of probability. Poker is a game of skill. It's not the cards that empower the player, but the player that empowers the cards.

And thats the problem. Most people think they got one hell of a poker face when in fact there read like a book.

[Smurf]

Poker's not gambling unless you suck.

I've played poker 10-20 hrs/week (including live and online) for a year now and I've never had a losing week.

I've never had a job, and have already made enough money to pay for my first two and a half years of university. I plan to get the third year "paid off" (money in my bank) by Christmas. My fourth year money will be completed by this time next year or sooner. So I will have all the money I need for my undergrad degree before I turn 19, all because of poker. Is poker gambling? Not for me it isn't.
Lets do some Math:
You're in Victoria, probably going to UVic, which means you're tuition will be about $4,300 per semester.
$4,300 x 2 = $8,600 per year tuition.
$8,600 x 2.5 = $21,500 you claim to have saved for college this year. How much more did you make that didnt go towards your university fund?
$21,500 / 48 = $448 per week
$448 / 10 = $45
$448 / 20 = $23
You're making $23 to $45 an hour. 10-20 hours a week.

Well, you're certainly doing well. :rolleyes:

[whozum]

And thats the problem. Most people think they got one hell of a poker face when in fact there read like a book.

I can't tell if you're agreeing or challenging.

[Pengwuino]

I can't tell if you're agreeing or challenging.

Agreeing. Its true (well, less so for limit hold em) that a big part of the game on the more advanced levels is figuring out what the other person has without... well.. knowing what he has. You also need to convince the person that you may have cards that you don't really have.

[Moonbear]

Ha! I can assure you that's not gonna happen.

Famous last words.

The house always wins, unless you're talking about "friendly" games with "the guys," in which case, do you really have to ask about the morality of supporting yourself off your "friends'" losses when you know they aren't at the same skill level as you are?

This is very much how gambling addictions start. You do well at the low-stakes games, gain confidence that you always win, that you can make money gambling, then you move up to higher stakes games because of the lure of higher winnings, but as you do that, you're also playing more skillful players who, just like you, have moved up to a higher level because they felt invicible when playing against less skilled players. Then you lose a few games, but you're so confident you can just win it back, so you keep playing, keep losing, maybe you win a few here and there, just enough to keep the excitement up and to make you think you can just reverse that turn of bad luck as you sink deeper into debt.

[gravenewworld]

It doesn't matter how much math you use, it is bound to backfire on you. Math is only 30% of the game, the rest is luck and pscychology. A lot of people who play can do the math, but don't end up winning. I can't count the number of times I have gotten burned on the river card when the guy I was up against had about 2/45 chance of pullling the card he needed on the river. Only a handful of people in the world can constantly play poker and in the long run make profit.

[dduardo]

"Everything you do in life is a gamble. Poker just has bad odds." - Me

The key to gambling is "Risk Management". For example, before purchasing a house you research the area, find out the assessed value, how much the previous owner(s) payed, etc. You then make a concious decesion as to the risk you'll be taking by purchasing the house. Will the value of the house appreciate or depreciate? By how much do you expect the value of the house to change? Are you better off renting? Should you turn around and resell the house? There are many questions you ask yourself in assessing risk. If you don't ask yourself these questions then your dumb.

Risk management can also be applied to poker. By using card counting techniques you can increase your odds of winning. But then you also have to take into acccount the possiblity of being barred from casinos and thrown in jail. Again, you factor in all the risk before making a concious decision to invest in the game. It just happens that poker can be more risky then other activities.

In conclusion, you can't compare gambling with morality. Only your actions can be right or wrong.

[Physics_wiz]

First off, let me give some replies:

Poker's not gambling unless you suck.
Poker IS gambling...you can't escape it. The only thing that doesn't make it like other forms of gambling is that you can have a POSITIVE expectation.

I've never had a job, and have already made enough money to pay for my first two and a half years of university. I plan to get the third year "paid off" (money in my bank) by Christmas. My fourth year money will be completed by this time next year or sooner. So I will have all the money I need for my undergrad degree before I turn 19, all because of poker. Is poker gambling? Not for me it isn't.
If you think you can go on living your life and relying on poker as your only source of income you're probably wrong. You won't be making $20/hr with health benefits, insurance, etc...playing poker.

Only people who aren't good at poker see it as a game of probability. Poker is a game of skill. It's not the cards that empower the player, but the player that empowers the cards.
I liked that one :biggrin:. I already told you I don't play the poker you see on tv where math completely goes down the drain. I play in the small stakes LIMIT games where there's ALWAYS a showdown and you can't get people to fold. One good example is Doyle Brunson who won the WSOP two times with 10 2...if I played hands like that in my games I'd go broke pretty quickly. Play a few thousand hands and try to empower hands like 10 2 offsuit then tell me how well you do.

The house always wins, unless you're talking about "friendly" games with "the guys," in which case, do you really have to ask about the morality of supporting yourself off your "friends'" losses when you know they aren't at the same skill level as you are?
I'm not playing against the house. In a game like roulette where people play against the house, the house gives itself a mathematical advantage so that in the long run the math ends up favoring the house and it makes money. The house also makes money when people play poker (against each other) but it's very possible for the both the house and the players (not all of them obviously) win at the same time because the house just takes a percentage of the winnings, it doesn't care who wins or loses. In games like texasholdem, there are two winners: the house and the players who make the fewest mistakes on their table (they could be making a lot of mistakes, but as long as other players are making more mistakes, the odds favor the ones who make the least number of mistakes).

This is very much how gambling addictions start. You do well at the low-stakes games, gain confidence that you always win, that you can make money gambling, then you move up to higher stakes games because of the lure of higher winnings, but as you do that, you're also playing more skillful players who, just like you, have moved up to a higher level because they felt invicible when playing against less skilled players. Then you lose a few games, but you're so confident you can just win it back, so you keep playing, keep losing, maybe you win a few here and there, just enough to keep the excitement up and to make you think you can just reverse that turn of bad luck as you sink deeper into debt.
This is 100% true and I've thought about this before. If everyone plays perfectly, only the house would win. The trick is not moving up. It's finding the highest beatable limit (online) and then just playing more tables.

It doesn't matter how much math you use, it is bound to backfire on you. Math is only 30% of the game, the rest is luck and pscychology. A lot of people who play can do the math, but don't end up winning.
That's interesting since at lot of the guys I knew in college were playing online poker while I was learning (they got me into it). I learned the math and made a small (10 lines or so) program to help me calculate stuff faster. After I started playing, I asked them whether they use math or not when they play. Not a single person said they used it...maybe they CAN do the math, but they don't do it. Also, what exactly is "luck"? If you have a 20% chance of hitting a card and you hit it...you didn't get lucky...you just hit a card that you expect to hit once every 5 times on average. It's deffinately a right move to chase that card if you're getting paid off to do it. If you don't chase it because you'll miss more often than not, you aren't playing right.

I can't count the number of times I have gotten burned on the river card when the guy I was up against had about 2/45 chance of pullling the card he needed on the river. Only a handful of people in the world can constantly play poker and in the long run make profit.
First, can you count the number of times someone chased a 2/45 chance, missed, and you ended up winning the hand?
Second, if you're playing with guys who chase a 2/45 chance and aren't making money then there's something wrong with YOUR play. People who make mistakes are exactly how money is made in those games...if you played with people who DIDN'T make mistakes you'd lose no matter what (in the long run).

"Everything you do in life is a gamble. Poker just has bad odds." - Me
Mind explaining how poker has bad odds?
Let me give an example:
Say we're playing a game where you have a basket with 3 balls in it. 2 black balls and one white ball. The rules are this: you pick a ball randomly and if you pick a black ball, you give me $1. If you pick the white ball, I give you $3. On average, every three picks you will pick a black ball twice and a white ball once. Therefore, you will lose $2 and gain $3 or you will gain $1. If I changed the rules around and paid you only $1 when you pick the white ball, it would be a losing game for you and you shouldn't play. Poker is the same thing except it has 52 balls. You see when you're getting paid off and you play. Otherwise, you fold.

Risk management can also be applied to poker. By using card counting techniques you can increase your odds of winning. But then you also have to take into acccount the possiblity of being barred from casinos and thrown in jail. Again, you factor in all the risk before making a concious decision to invest in the game. It just happens that poker can be more risky then other activities.
I am probably wrong but I don't think Blackjack is a form of poker. I was talking about games like texas holdem anyways where you can't count cards (not that it's against the rules, but you just can't do it). Anyways, you DON'T NEED to count cards in texas holdem to give yourself an edge. There are always people making bad calls (like the guys calling gravenewworld with a 2/45 chance) and THOSE people right there is all you need to make money. On the other hand, when you play blackjack, you're playing against the house. The ONLY way you can give yourself a slight edge is by counting cards (obviously against the house's rules since the house can't afford to give you the mathematical advantage).

In conclusion, you can't compare gambling with morality. Only your actions can be right or wrong.
Why can't you compare gambling with morality? I don't think I understand. The only "bad" thing I see about it is that you're taking money from people for just being better than them as opposed to taking money from people in return for a service (pretty much all other jobs).

Ok, enough with the replies. I am not trying to make a living playing poker or anything. It could make for a good hobby during college, but all I am concerned about is the morality of the game. Do you think it's immoral to take money from people without offering a service in return?

[russ_watters]

Already said, but to reiterate... Poker is nothing but drawing cards from a deck which is basically probability. If you think Poker is a game of probability, then you are not even halfway to becoming a good Poker player. Poker is more a game of psychology than anything else. I'm not a guy who would just go throw his money away without knowing where it's going so I made sure I understand what I'm doing before I played poker for real money. I've played about 20,000 hands so far and made a good amount of money, so I am pretty sure I can make a bit of money doing this. I'm guessing from this and from what was above that you've mostly played online. If that's the case, you'll find that there is a big difference between playing online and playing with "real" people. There is also a big difference between playing for fake and real money. Also, be careful playing online - it isn't that hard to cheat.

[Physics_wiz]

Already said, but to reiterate... If you think Poker is a game of probability, then you are not even halfway to becoming a good Poker player. Poker is more a game of psychology more than anything else. I'm guessing from this and from what was above that you've mostly played online. If that's the case, you'll find that there is a big difference between playing online and playing with "real" people. There is also a big difference between playing for fake and real money. Also, be careful playing online - it isn't that hard to cheat.

I agree that SOME forms of poker are pretty much all psychology. When I go play in $5 buy in tournaments with my friends where blinds go up regularly, the math goes down the drain. There is still some math but it's mostly psychology. BTW, I'm pretty good at figuring out what the other guys have :tongue2:. However, online is different. I recently moved up in limits (still small stakes) and there are a few more tricks that you need to know (blind stealing, isolating, etc...), but the math is still there. With stats and everything online you can even record about what % of the time someone bluffs (obviously it could be a bit off since sometimes they win w/o showing their hand so you don't know if they bluffed or not but most of the time they get called) and make plays based on those percentages. If you really pay attention you can even find patterns in people's play because online is a lot more mechanical...you have three buttons and you just press on one of them. Most people have a system they follow (subconsciously even) and for some, figuring out their system is pretty easy.

[dduardo]

Mind explaining how poker has bad odds?
Let me give an example:
Say we're playing a game where you have a basket with 3 balls in it. 2 black balls and one white ball. The rules are this: you pick a ball randomly and if you pick a black ball, you give me $1. If you pick the white ball, I give you $3. On average, every three picks you will pick a black ball twice and a white ball once. Therefore, you will lose $2 and gain $3 or you will gain $1. If I changed the rules around and paid you only $1 when you pick the white ball, it would be a losing game for you and you shouldn't play. Poker is the same thing except it has 52 balls. You see when you're getting paid off and you play. Otherwise, you fold.


You've obviously never played poker in the casino considering you only turned 18. For one thing there is something called blinds that force you to put money in regardless if you have a good or bad hand.


I am probably wrong but I don't think Blackjack is a form of poker. I was talking about games like texas holdem anyways where you can't count cards (not that it's against the rules, but you just can't do it). Anyways, you DON'T NEED to count cards in texas holdem to give yourself an edge. There are always people making bad calls (like the guys calling gravenewworld with a 2/45 chance) and THOSE people right there is all you need to make money. On the other hand, when you play blackjack, you're playing against the house. The ONLY way you can give yourself a slight edge is by counting cards (obviously against the house's rules since the house can't afford to give you the mathematical advantage).


Card counting is not something exclusive to Blackjack. Yes, that's the most popular game to use it on, but it can be used to help you in poker. Also as russ_watters pointed out, you can also use psychology to your advantage to better your chances of winning.


Why can't you compare gambling with morality? I don't think I understand. The only "bad" thing I see about it is that you're taking money from people for just being better than them as opposed to taking money from people in return for a service (pretty much all other jobs).

Ok, enough with the replies. I am not trying to make a living playing poker or anything. It could make for a good hobby during college, but all I am concerned about is the morality of the game. Do you think it's immoral to take money from people without offering a service in return?

People ARE getting a service in return. They get the excitiment of playing a game for money. Even if the person loses the person can still say the game was fun because it was exciting.

[Physics_wiz]

You've obviously never played poker in the casino considering you only turned 18. For one thing there is something called blinds that force you to put money in regardless if you have a good or bad hand.

I just turned 19 five days ago :biggrin:. Still too young to know anything..eh? Probably true.
Yep, I haven't played in a casino before, but I've played with casino rules and trust me I know what blinds are :tongue2:. The simple game I gave was just to illustrate a point: You play only when you get paid off (at the small stakes, you get paid off a lot more than you need to in order to make profit or just break even) and you fold when you are not getting paid off. Yes, you can't just fold every hand without losing money because you have to pay the blinds, but the pay offs you get from other people's mistakes more than make up for that.
Online you play about 45 hands/hr, blinds are usually 1.5 small bets every 10 hands so about 6.75 small bets/hr or about 3.4 big bets/hr. When you have 4+ (some of those tables have 7+) people making mistakes every single hand, you get paid off. If, when you win a pot, 4 people enter the pot with a bad hand, that's 4 small bets right there. Also, those people don't just fold on the flop, they keep going and make more and more mistakes which makes up for the blinds you pay and the rake.

Card counting is not something exclusive to Blackjack. Yes, that's the most popular game to use it on, but it can be used to help you in poker. Also as russ_watters pointed out, you can also use psychology to your advantage to better your chances of winning.
Hmmmm, you can count cards in texasholdem/omaha where the deck is shuffled every hand and the only known cards are your/community cards? Are you talking about "outs" (ie. If I have an Ace I know that there are 3 Aces left in the deck so I calculate the exact prob. of getting one)? Because if you are, I do that all the time.


People ARE getting a service in return. They get the excitiment of playing a game for money. Even if the person loses the person can still say the game was fun because it was exciting.
Sweet, I never thought about it that way.

[ek]

Lets do some Math:
You're in Victoria, probably going to UVic, which means you're tuition will be about $4,300 per semester.
$4,300 x 2 = $8,600 per year tuition.
$8,600 x 2.5 = $21,500 you claim to have saved for college this year. How much more did you make that didnt go towards your university fund?
$21,500 / 48 = $448 per week
$448 / 10 = $45
$448 / 20 = $23
You're making $23 to $45 an hour. 10-20 hours a week.

Well, you're certainly doing well. :rolleyes:

I don't know where you get 4300/semester from. It's actually about $4600/YEAR.

So actually all I claim to have made is about 10-11 thousand (plus maybe a thousand that I made that doesn't go towards university). Which works out to about 15 bucks an hour. It's not that great, but it's good money for an 18 year old. And it sure beats flipping burgers.

This is very much how gambling addictions start. You do well at the low-stakes games, gain confidence that you always win, that you can make money gambling, then you move up to higher stakes games because of the lure of higher winnings, but as you do that, you're also playing more skillful players who, just like you, have moved up to a higher level because they felt invicible when playing against less skilled players. Then you lose a few games, but you're so confident you can just win it back, so you keep playing, keep losing, maybe you win a few here and there, just enough to keep the excitement up and to make you think you can just reverse that turn of bad luck as you sink deeper into debt.

This is definitely a problem for a lot of people. They win some money, and they think they're Doyle Brunson and play in bigger and bigger games until inevitably all their money is gone. Among online players this is known as the "newbie circle of death".

But if you can combat the urge to do this, or if you do not have the urge in the first place (as I do not), then you can be successful just playing the low limits.

Truth be told, I'm scared of money. I'm a very frugal guy. Losing money makes me sick. If I sit down for a couple of hours and lose $20, I feel sick for the rest of the day. Never mind that I've won fifty times that in the last month, it still sucks to lose. But I think it's that respect for money that makes me the winner that I am.



It doesn't matter how much math you use, it is bound to backfire on you. Math is only 30% of the game, the rest is luck and pscychology. A lot of people who play can do the math, but don't end up winning. I can't count the number of times I have gotten burned on the river card when the guy I was up against had about 2/45 chance of pullling the card he needed on the river. Only a handful of people in the world can constantly play poker and in the long run make profit.

It's all about expected value. Who cares if that guy catches the miracle river card? If I have made the right play, and he has made an incorrect play, I HAVE WON. That's all that matters. Poker is not about this hand, this session, or this week. It is about the hundreds of thousands of hands you play, and over time luck will always even out and the people that make the right plays will win out in the end. Beginners always have "this hand" syndrome. They get lucky and think they made a good play. Or they get unlucky and think they made a bad play. Winning or losing one particular hand doesn't matter, and really that's one of if not the most important psychological precept in poker. It's making winning plays that matters.

If you think you can go on living your life and relying on poker as your only source of income you're probably wrong. You won't be making $20/hr with health benefits, insurance, etc...playing poker.

Why do you think I'm going to university right now? So I can be a career $15/hr poker player? It's merely a fun and very convenient way of paying for my education.


I liked that one . I already told you I don't play the poker you see on tv where math completely goes down the drain. I play in the small stakes LIMIT games where there's ALWAYS a showdown and you can't get people to fold. One good example is Doyle Brunson who won the WSOP two times with 10 2...if I played hands like that in my games I'd go broke pretty quickly. Play a few thousand hands and try to empower hands like 10 2 offsuit then tell me how well you do.

The only reason Doyle was playing ten deuce was because it was head up. Against one other person almost any two cards are playable. In a normal no limit ring game only maniacs and morons play T2.

If you think Poker is a game of probability, then you are not even halfway to becoming a good Poker player. Poker is more a game of psychology than anything else.....I'm guessing from this and from what was above that you've mostly played online. If that's the case, you'll find that there is a big difference between playing online and playing with "real" people. There is also a big difference between playing for fake and real money. Also, be careful playing online - it isn't that hard to cheat.

From what you have said here I can tell you don't know much about poker. Poker is only a game more about psychology at the high limits. At the lower limits poker is all about making the right mathematical plays and not going on tilt.

Why be careful playing online? Because you couldn't hack it online and busted out your bankroll because "it's rigged"? I always laugh at people like you. Play well against the B&M fish but can't hack it against the online crowd. Newsflash: Online players are better as a whole than B&M players. And how exactly do you cheat online? I have never cheated online, and I have never encountered a cheater. I cannot say the same thing about B&M.

Please, inform me of how exactly you can cheat online.

Card counting is not something exclusive to Blackjack. Yes, that's the most popular game to use it on, but it can be used to help you in poker.

There is no card counting in poker.

[Physics_wiz]

The only reason Doyle was playing ten deuce was because it was head up. Against one other person almost any two cards are playable. In a normal no limit ring game only maniacs and morons play T2.
I realize that Doyle wouldn't have played 10 2 if the table was full. I was just making a point to whozum who said the cards don't matter when they are actually a very important factor in full limit ring games (esp. low limits).

Poker is only a game more about psychology at the high limits. At the lower limits poker is all about making the right mathematical plays and not going on tilt.
Sounds right.

Why be careful playing online? Because you couldn't hack it online and busted out your bankroll because "it's rigged"? I always laugh at people like you. Play well against the B&M fish but can't hack it against the online crowd. Newsflash: Online players are better as a whole than B&M players. And how exactly do you cheat online? I have never cheated online, and I have never encountered a cheater. I cannot say the same thing about B&M.

Please, inform me of how exactly you can cheat online.
russ makes a good point. Do you know how much of an edge you can give yourself if you and two other friends sat on a table, opened up a chat window and told each other your cards?

[russ_watters]

Please, inform me of how exactly you can cheat online. It is possible to rig an entire room - a handful of guys in a dorm room all join the same game and compare cards and co-ordinate betting.

One thing I'd like to know about playing online though is what percentage of people use software to calculate the odds for them and play based on odds alone.

10 second google example: http://www.bluecoincasino.com/dir/8801-partypoker-cheat.htm
The type of cheating that does go on falls into two categories of active cheating and passive cheating. Active cheating works just like it does in real life, where players work in teams to raise other players out of the pot or juice the pot for each other.

Passive cheating is generally harder to catch and is also known as collusion. This is when players share their cards with one another to help them make better choices when it comes to odds. For the most part, this cheating is normally not very beneficial to the cheaters to begin with except in few situations where the information may actually help. With more than 2 players in on it however, it may become a problem with 4 players are all sharing information.

[dduardo]

ek, just do a google search for "card counting poker" and you'll find plenty of tutorials. Here is an example:

http://pokermag.com/ManageArticle.asp?C=60&A=6587

[ek]

ek, just do a google search for "card counting poker" and you'll find plenty of tutorials. Here is an example:

http://pokermag.com/ManageArticle.asp?C=60&A=6587

Is that site a joke?

I can't even discern what game they are talking about. 7 stud? Why would it matter whether high cards or low cards are exposed? All that matters is what cards you need are exposed.

There is no such thing as card counting in poker.

[ek]

It is possible to rig an entire room - a handful of guys in a dorm room all join the same game and compare cards and co-ordinate betting.

One thing I'd like to know about playing online though is what percentage of people use software to calculate the odds for them and play based on odds alone.

10 second google example: http://www.bluecoincasino.com/dir/8801-partypoker-cheat.htm

Can't have more than one player from one IP.

Online poker rooms monitor for collusion intensively.

And who cares about people that use odds calculators. If you need an odds calculator in the first place you're going to lose money whether you use it or not, simple as that.

If you have played online and lost your money and blamed it on "cheaters" or it being "rigged" then I suggest you look at your game in the mirror.

It is so much easier to cheat in live poker it's ridiculous. Online you have a clean game. Live you can't be guarenteed of that. You have colluders in both places, more often in B&M because there's no site monitoring their activities. Online you don't encounter shady dealers who will bottom deal, second deal and stack the deck. Online you cannot physically throw cards under the table like you can live. There is also no angle shooting online. Whether angling constitutes cheating is a matter of opinion though.

[EL]

Poker has grown alot here during the last couple of years. I know plenty of people earning their living on online poker. It is very popular to play during the nights when there are more americans playing... :tongue2: :smile:

[russ_watters]

Can't have more than one player from one IP. On a college lan, everyone gets their own IP. Online poker rooms monitor for collusion intensively. Yes, I know. How successful they are, I don't know.

[Smurf]

Can't have more than one player from one IP.

Online poker rooms monitor for collusion intensively.
......AND?

It didn't even cross my mind that 3 players would be playing from the same computer.

[Smurf]

There is no such thing as card counting in poker.
You can count cards in any game, the only difference is how to do it and how much it will actually help.

[ek]

......AND?

It didn't even cross my mind that 3 players would be playing from the same computer.

I don't understand what you're saying in this post.

You can count cards in any game, the only difference is how to do it and how much it will actually help.

You can't count cards in poker. You don't even play, how the hell would you know?

[Physics_wiz]

ek, just do a google search for "card counting poker" and you'll find plenty of tutorials. Here is an example:

http://pokermag.com/ManageArticle.asp?C=60&A=6587
You can count the EXACT probability of getting each card in texas holdem or omaha. You don't need to count cards and I don't even know how you would do it. Unlike blackjack, high cards vs. low cards isn't a big deal in holdem because all you need to know is the prob. a certain card will come up and there's a very easy shortcut to do that in your head (it doesn't give the exact probability, but a close enough estimate).
dduardo, if you've played holdem before please give a simple example. It will make stuff so much easier.

One thing I'd like to know about playing online though is what percentage of people use software to calculate the odds for them and play based on odds alone.
When I first started, I made my own small program that calculates the probability of a "good" card showing up given how many good cards are left in the deck. It then plugs that into a formula given the pot size and outputs the max. bet I can call and be getting paid off (kindda like the 3 balls game). I used only this for a while to make decisions when I'm drawing and it turned out to be pretty successful. Now I learned a few shortcuts to do all that stuff in my head (pretty easy once you know the shortcuts) and I don't just go by the odds...there are other factors too that I didn't account for when first playing. BTW, do you think there's anything wrong with using a software that tells you the odds? It doesn't break the rules of the game and it's not a cheating program since it doesn't reveal any info you shouldn't be knowing. It's just a faster way to calculate stuff, but once you know the shortcuts you don't need it.

And who cares about people that use odds calculators. If you need an odds calculator in the first place you're going to lose money whether you use it or not, simple as that.
You're kidding right? All the calculator does is calculate stuff you can calculate in your head (using shortcuts) a few seconds faster. I don't see why it's so bad. BTW ek, just curious...what limits do you play?

[Pengwuino]

You can't count cards in poker. You don't even play, how the hell would you know?

What he's trying to say is that if you know 3 people playing at a table, you can have 1 person be the actual player and the 3 otehr people are relaying what there cards were to you. With that, the 1 person who was chosen to really play will know what 6 other cards in the deck were actually played. This doesn't really help you out a whole lot, but there are definitly situations that it can help. For example, if you draw two 7's, its rather tricky to konw whether to go at it or not in texas hold em (especially no limit). Theres seven cards out there that in pairs, are higher then your pair of 7's. What your really hoping for (especially if 2 or 3 people stay in the pot with you) is a third seven to pop up to give you a good three of a kind. Now, if you have access to six more cards because of your friends and 2 of them happen to have crumby hands that include 7's, your most likely going to fold because now theres no way you will be able to make that three of a kind since the other two 7's are being thrown out by your friends.

This of course, is for online play. In a real casino, its much harder and you have cameras looken at everything you do. At the casino i play it, they have 2 cameras per table in the room.

[ek]

You're kidding right? All the calculator does is calculate stuff you can calculate in your head (using shortcuts) a few seconds faster. I don't see why it's so bad. BTW ek, just curious...what limits do you play?

Not being able to do the calculations is a reflection of your skill in general. Good players do not need any odds calculator. And good players are the only ones making money. And odds calculators are not faster, they are actually a brutal time waster. I usually play between 5-10 tables at a time depending on the site. There is no way in hell I could do that if I was using some newbie odds calculator.

I play NL25 and NL50. As well as .5/1 Stud.

[ek]

What he's trying to say is that if you know 3 people playing at a table, you can have 1 person be the actual player and the 3 otehr people are relaying what there cards were to you. With that, the 1 person who was chosen to really play will know what 6 other cards in the deck were actually played. This doesn't really help you out a whole lot, but there are definitly situations that it can help. For example, if you draw two 7's, its rather tricky to konw whether to go at it or not in texas hold em (especially no limit). Theres seven cards out there that in pairs, are higher then your pair of 7's. What your really hoping for (especially if 2 or 3 people stay in the pot with you) is a third seven to pop up to give you a good three of a kind. Now, if you have access to six more cards because of your friends and 2 of them happen to have crumby hands that include 7's, your most likely going to fold because now theres no way you will be able to make that three of a kind since the other two 7's are being thrown out by your friends.


That is definitely not worth the trouble.

As for the play of 77. Flop or drop. Call for cheap, see a flop, if it doesn't come 7xx you're done with the hand. No cheating needed. What does knowing that your buddy folded a 7 do for you? Save you a quarter, 50 cents, a dollar maybe? Is that worth getting your whole bankroll frozen and ceased when you're busted for collusion? I think not.

[Pengwuino]

Oh well im not saying its a useful tactic. Im just explaining to how its actually possible to do a psuedo-card count.

actually, it may be useful! If you hold pocket J's or Q's and the flop has an A and a K, it'll be extremely helpful to know if your friends folded one of those A's or K's as a potential bluff from another person at the table becomes less likely to be the real deal. Of course, yes, like you said, its cheating, its not worth it.... it never is.

I was at the casino.. thursday... man, I played blackjack with $100 and i won $100 after a few hours. Swear to god though, scared me good when one of the security guards came over with just me and this other guy playen and stood around for about 10 minutes (and no, I dont count... i have trouble counting up my cards quickly so memorizing high-low is beyond me right now haha). I also felt like i was being followed when i left... never looked back to see however so i dunno... i think i was just getting those weird feelings you get when you actually do take some money from the casino.

[Physics_wiz]

Not being able to do the calculations is a reflection of your skill in general. Good players do not need any odds calculator.
So, you can divide 5/47, 6/47, 4/47, etc...in your head right? Do you actually divide them in your head or you learned a few extremely easy shortcuts to calculate close estimates? When I started I made that program because it was deffinately faster than dividing 4/47 in my head then figuring out if I can make a profitable call or not. That doesn't mean that I was a bad player...now I can do them in my head, but I wouldn't have figured out the shortcuts if I didn't read about them somewhere. Actually, a 3rd grader who's just learning multiplication and addition can do the calculations in his head using a few easy tricks...does that mean he's good at poker?

And good players are the only ones making money.
Well I've played about 20k hands so far and I beat the game for about 5BB/100 hands. If I can't do the calculations in my head I'm a bad player, right? If I'm a bad player I won't be making money...eh? Something seems wrong...maybe doing the calculations in your head isn't a reflection of one's skill after all.

[Pengwuino]

$5 was the big blind? What was the small blind? $3?

[Physics_wiz]

$5 was the big blind? What was the small blind? $3?

You talking about the 5BB/100 hands? BB stands for big bets ($.5 or $1)
I played in both .25/.50 and .5/1 limit tables. The first number is the small bet (also the big blind). The second number is the big bet. To get the small blind, just divide the small bet by 2 (sometimes it's a little different depending on the site). I know these are pretty low stakes but I still managed to make a few hundred in them.

[Pengwuino]

Oh pff, im getting blinds and bets confused. So you play with $.25 and $.5 small/big blinds... with $.5/$1 bets... ok ok i get it haha.

I play $1/$2 blinds, $2/$4 bets.

[ek]

So, you can divide 5/47, 6/47, 4/47, etc...in your head right? Do you actually divide them in your head or you learned a few extremely easy shortcuts to calculate close estimates?

I tend not to draw to four and five outers.

But those odds can be approximated to 8.5:1, 7:1 and 11:1.

[gravenewworld]

Let's start a physics forums room on partypoker.com. It will be for fun only. My sn is gravnewwworld

[Pengwuino]

Let's start a physics forums room on partypoker.com. It will be for fun only. My sn is gravnewwworld

awesome, meet you there. sn is Veto1024

[Physics_wiz]

I tend not to draw to four and five outers.

But those odds can be approximated to 8.5:1, 7:1 and 11:1.

Ok so you have them memorized...when I started I didn't have them memorized and I actually calculated them every time. Now I have them memorized but that doesn't mean that I was a "bad player" when I was actually calculating every hand. A bad player is one who doesn't know the odds, not one who uses a calculator to calculate them every hand.

[Pengwuino]

Hey i was wondering something...

What is that thing the dealers have on the right hand side where htey stack chips every-so-often.

I always see them put a chip there but i also see them drop chips into a bucket-type thing under the table that has a slot for the coins on the table.

[gravenewworld]

I think you are refering to the money the house takes out of a pot. That is called the rake. The house take a percetage out of the pot. thats how the casinos get their money off of poker. If you sit down at the table and there are only 3 or 4 other players ask the dealer if you can get the rake lowered. Usually the pit boss will lower it if you just ask and there aren't that many players. The dealer also usually has a tip bin. When you get a good hand you are supposed to give the dealer a tip. The dealer puts the tip in the box, then at the end of the night, I assume all the tips are collected and split between all the dealers who worked that table.

[Pengwuino]

I don't think so.. I see the dealer take in tips and put them in the rack of chips (odd...). I'll go and ask... maybe that dealer was screwed up haha.

[TheStatutoryApe]

ek, just do a google search for "card counting poker" and you'll find plenty of tutorials. Here is an example:

http://pokermag.com/ManageArticle.asp?C=60&A=6587
Maybe there's a mix up in terminology here.
You can't "card count" when the deck is shuffled between hands. Card counting generally refers to what is done in black jack where the cards are drawn straight off the top of the same deck until all of the cards in that deck have been dealt. When this is done you can keep a mantal tally of what cards have been dealt in previous hands and know for a fact that a certain card wont be dealt because it already has been previously. In holdem you can only calculate odds and make an educated guess as to your opponents hole cards by comparing their betting and the cards you can see in play. This isn't generally considered card counting as far as I know.


On the issue of ethics. I don't think there is anything unethical about poker or gambling as long as people aren't being scammed. There is only one instance that I think of that I would consider it unethical. If you're in a casino playing and you can see that someone is throwing away their money at the table when they oughtn't be and you continue to take it then this could be considered unethical, I would consider it so myself. They may be the one making the mistake of doing so but if you can reasonably see what is occuring and continue I would consider it exploitation. Online I can't really see this being much of an issue.

[ek]

Ok so you have them memorized.

I don't have them memorized. Arithmetic is my thing. I can do any odds to a good approximation almost instantly.

[Physics_wiz]

BTW, anyone know anything about whether online poker is illegal or not? I live in WV...anyone know where I can find like state laws concerning gambling or something?

[Moonbear]

BTW, anyone know anything about whether online poker is illegal or not? I live in WV...anyone know where I can find like state laws concerning gambling or something?
Seems betting is illegal there http://www.gambling-law-us.com/State-Laws/West-Virginia/

With the following exceptions:
..except bowls, chess or backgammon, draughts or a licensed game...

Woo hoo, I can look forward to those rousing backgammon tournaments! :rofl:

That's what you have to look at, not whether it's illegal to set up a gambling establishment/tables, but what the penalties are for placing bets.

Though, in that link I provided, interestingly, if you lose anything more than $10 while gambling in WV, you can sue the winner to get it back because they won it illegally. That's a bit different from other states I've seen that pretty much say you're screwed if you were dumb enough to lose the title to your house while gambling illegally. But, I doubt that will help you much if you are playing online at a site established someplace outside of WV.

[TheStatutoryApe]

Ok... I need to visit WV so I can gamble on chess games lol. That and to take Moonie out for dinner ofcourse.

[Moonbear]

Ok... I need to visit WV so I can gamble on chess games lol. That and to take Moonie out for dinner ofcourse.
:!!) :!!)

What are bowls and draughts anyway? It sounds like some old geezers in a nursing home protested the gambling laws with that collection of games.

[arildno]

I don't get this:
What's so interesting having poker games over Internet??
It is a lot more fun to be together for real, right?

[ek]

Online poker is not legal in the US nor is it illegal. It is not stated explicitly anywhere what the country's policy is.

All of these online poker rooms are offshore so really the US has no jurisdiction anyway.

You do, however, have to pay taxes in the US on online poker winnings. In Canada we do not.

There are certain sites that do not allow Americans or Canadians for one reason or another. For example Americans are not allowed to play at Ladbrokes and Canadians are not allowed to play at Bodog. But all of the major sites are open to everyone legally.

[Moonbear]

I found out what bowls is! :rofl: http://www.tradgames.org.uk/games/Bowls.htm

At least it's not shuffleboard, I guess. :rofl: I'm trying to figure out where in WV the land would be flat enough to play a game like that. I think I'd be betting on whether the balls would stay on the playing field. :rofl:

[ek]

I don't get this:
What's so interesting having poker games over Internet??
It is a lot more fun to be together for real, right?

It's tough to get 6-10 guys together a lot of the time. Unless you live near a casino or card room, which in my case I don't. If you want to play more than once or twice a week, you pretty much have to play online.

Also if you're starting out you can play much lower stakes online than in a casino/cardroom. The lowest stakes you can find live are usually 1/2NL and 2/4 fixed. Online you can find stakes all the way down to penny/2penny.

Online you can also play more than one table at a time. Like I said earlier, I play up to ten tables at a time. It's a lot faster and more exciting.

Even with all the plusses of online poker, I still prefer playing live. The players are generally worse than online and the whole social aspect of it makes it more enjoyable. I'm lucky right now because I just found a local game with these young rich kids playing .5/1 NL every night. They throw around money like it's nothing. Very profitable.

[arildno]

Oh, you were talking about the card game..
Sorry for butting in..

[Moonbear]

Online poker is not legal in the US nor is it illegal. It is not stated explicitly anywhere what the country's policy is.

All of these online poker rooms are offshore so really the US has no jurisdiction anyway.

You do, however, have to pay taxes in the US on online poker winnings. In Canada we do not.

There are certain sites that do not allow Americans or Canadians for one reason or another. For example Americans are not allowed to play at Ladbrokes and Canadians are not allowed to play at Bodog. But all of the major sites are open to everyone legally.
In the U.S., gambling laws are determined by the individual states, so what is legal in one state may be illegal in the neighboring state.

I don't get this:
What's so interesting having poker games over Internet??
It is a lot more fun to be together for real, right?
I agree. I don't see the fun in playing online. More of the fun in playing is the face-to-face psychological game...who has the better poker face, who bluffs well, etc. Plus, in a friendly game, it's just something to do while chatting (but then you play for things like peanuts or M&Ms rather than money).

[Moonbear]

Oh, you were talking about the card game..
Sorry for butting in..
You're so bad, so very very bad! It's so unfair that you're gay! :cry: :rofl:

[arildno]

I agree. I don't see the fun in playing online. More of the fun in playing is the face-to-face psychological game...who has the better poker face, who bluffs well, etc. Plus, in a friendly game, it's just something to do while chatting (but then you play for things like peanuts or M&Ms rather than money).
Yes, I absolutely agree with you, dear.. :biggrin:


It's so fun to find out who's got the best poker face..

[Physics_wiz]

Ok... I need to visit WV so I can gamble on chess games lol. That and to take Moonie out for dinner ofcourse.

Welcome any time :biggrin:. I haven't been here for long, but I know a few places to go (we have BK and McD's). We can also play some poker for 20 bucks and if we win we just take the money, if we lose we sue the guys who won (thanks to Moonbear for enlightening us to the hidden law that no one knows about).

BTW, I've always wanted to have a pet monkey since I was a little kiddo...does he know any awesome tricks?

[Pengwuino]

haha ive been playing 1/2 hold em for the last 3 hours :D

But ive been dealing with this same crap over and over all night. I'll get pocket A's or K's... and the flop will be all suited or make a possible straight immediately. Just now i had pocket A's... and of course, immediately 3 diamonds flop. Well, thankfully i still won

[ek]

In the U.S., gambling laws are determined by the individual states, so what is legal in one state may be illegal in the neighboring state.

I know that.

But it still doesn't affect online poker. Offshore is offshore.

Just got home from a five hour game tonight of .5/1 NL. Finished up $247. Go me.

[Moonbear]

Welcome any time :biggrin:. I haven't been here for long, but I know a few places to go (we have BK and McD's).
:grumpy: BK and McD's?!?!?!!!!

Believe it or not, there are decent restaurants out there. I was at a really nice restaurant on this last trip down (not that I noticed the name...definitely not a place for anyone on a student budget), and there's a decent Indian restaurant somewhere in the downtown area (that's the area where I get hopelessly lost), I've wandered into a pub with typical pub food, there was a brew pub somewhere, but I can't recall if that was near the campus or someplace else...went there on one of my first trips to WV and was really turned around and clueless as to where I was...someone just picked me up at the Pittsburgh airport and transported me everywhere, and I had no idea where I was most of the time I was there.

[Physics_wiz]

:grumpy: BK and McD's?!?!?!!!!

Believe it or not, there are decent restaurants out there. I was at a really nice restaurant on this last trip down (not that I noticed the name...definitely not a place for anyone on a student budget), and there's a decent Indian restaurant somewhere in the downtown area (that's the area where I get hopelessly lost), I've wandered into a pub with typical pub food, there was a brew pub somewhere, but I can't recall if that was near the campus or someplace else...went there on one of my first trips to WV and was really turned around and clueless as to where I was...someone just picked me up at the Pittsburgh airport and transported me everywhere, and I had no idea where I was most of the time I was there.

It was a joke Moonbear! They do have some pretty nice restaurants around here. I think I've been to one of those "real" restaurants (http://www.theglasshousegrille.com/) only once in my entire life :biggrin:. It was a school sponsored thing too. Other than that, the best I've been to was the $6 chinese buffet next to walmart.

BTW, where'd you go in WV? I live in Morgantown

[Moonbear]

It was a joke Moonbear! They do have some pretty nice restaurants around here. I think I've been to one of those "real" restaurants (http://www.theglasshousegrille.com/) only once in my entire life :biggrin:. It was a school sponsored thing too. Other than that, the best I've been to was the $6 chinese buffet next to walmart.

BTW, where'd you go in WV? I live in Morgantown

Uh oh! Now I'm going to have to walk around wearing my mask and cape to hide my secret identity! :rofl: Yep, that's the name of the restaurant (though I didn't see it until I quoted you...wrong tags on it), it was very good! I was looking through the list of local restaurants today trying to remember places I've been while visiting. Glasshouse Grille was this recent trip. Of course since I've almost always stayed at the Hampton Inn while visiting (I've visited MANY times over the past several years), I've eaten at the Applebees many times (to the point where I'm sick of it), there's also a decent Chinese place on Van Voorhis, and right up where Van Voorhis and 705 intersect, there's a tiny little mall with a decent family-run Italian restaurant (very small, slow service, but good and plentiful food).

I've also been to Pargo's, but I don't recall the food...I think that was at the end of one of those really long experiments where I don't remember anything other than having a pint of beer and being dropped off at the hotel to sleep until check-out time and then hitting the road for home.

West Virginia Brewing Company is the brewpub I was trying to recall the name of (as if it was a really difficult name to remember). And I have also been to La Casa for Mexican. Good food there too, but I seem to recall they didn't have a bar, or maybe it was a very limited beer and wine selection, and that was a big gripe of the group I was with. :rofl:

Now I know not to post any more pictures of the place I'll be living (don't worry, it's far away from the student housing :cool:).

[BobG]

I found out what bowls is! :rofl: http://www.tradgames.org.uk/games/Bowls.htm

At least it's not shuffleboard, I guess. :rofl: I'm trying to figure out where in WV the land would be flat enough to play a game like that. I think I'd be betting on whether the balls would stay on the playing field. :rofl:
Obviously they play Crown Green Bowl in West Virginia.

That's a fun game at picnics (except the sets you buy at Walmart, Gart Sports, etc are called Bocce Sets, in spite of the fact that Bocci is a completely different game). It would be an excellent betting game. Not only for the winner of the game, but the side bets on each shot - "Off the tree, over the root, around the sprinkler head, nothing but Jack"; "Off the back of Jack's head, off the windshield of Jack's car, down the steps, over the foot bridge, under the bush, and nothing but Jack." :rofl:

[Moonbear]

Obviously they play Crown Green Bowl in West Virginia.

That's a fun game at picnics (except the sets you buy at Walmart, Gart Sports, etc are called Bocce Sets, in spite of the fact that Bocci is a completely different game). It would be an excellent betting game. Not only for the winner of the game, but the side bets on each shot - "Off the tree, over the root, around the sprinkler head, nothing but Jack"; "Off the back of Jack's head, off the windshield of Jack's car, down the steps, over the foot bridge, under the bush, and nothing but Jack." :rofl:

:rofl: That sounds like the "ultimate" croquet games we used to play! It was sort of like croquet combined with miniature golf. We'd have obstacles, and ramps to play around. Of course it's the sort of game you play when you have one old professor who shows up to a party with a croquet set expecting this will be a popular pasttime, and the younger crowd finally agrees to play after consuming plenty of beer first (or was it the spiked cider?), but regular croquet is rather boring, so voila! you get ultimate croquet. :biggrin:

I'm now envisioning some interesting entertainment out on the farm during late night experiments, and all legal too! :rofl: