What Are Physical Symmetries and How Do Particles Transform?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of physical symmetries, particularly in the context of particle physics and cosmology. Participants explore the nature of symmetries related to fundamental forces and particles, as well as the implications of these symmetries for understanding the early universe.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants seek a plain language explanation of physical symmetries, referencing examples from geometry such as spheres, cylinders, and cones.
  • One participant discusses the idea that all four fundamental forces were unified at a very early moment in the universe's history, suggesting a symmetry that existed before the forces became distinct.
  • Another participant notes that this symmetry is believed to represent an unknown singularity and that it was spontaneously broken shortly after the Big Bang.
  • A later reply mentions the Grand Unified Theory (GUT) as a framework that might explain the unification of forces, but acknowledges that no workable theories currently exist.
  • One participant expresses confusion about how particles can transform into one another, specifically questioning the transformation of a Z particle into an electron or photon, indicating a belief that these particles are fundamentally different.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express varying levels of understanding and agreement about the nature of physical symmetries and their implications. There is no consensus on the explanations or theories related to these concepts, and several points remain contested or unclear.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight the complexity of the topic, including the unresolved nature of theories regarding quantum gravity and the Grand Unified Theory, as well as the challenges in conceptualizing particle transformations.

werner heisenberg
Can somedody explain me in a relatively plain languaje what are physical simetries
 
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werner Heisenberg said:
Can somedody explain me in a relatively plain languaje what are physical simetries
in what sense please? Here are some simple degrees of rotational and mirror symmetries for solid geometric objects:

A sphere is symmetrical in all rotations and mirror-images. It looks the same in any aspect.
A cylinder is symmetrical when rotated about its central axis, and is mirrror-symmetrical when its central axis is flipped 180 degrees.
A cone is symmetrical when rotated about its central axis, but does not possesses mirror symmetry when that axis is flipped 180 degrees - the apex is now on the "wrong" end.

If you're looking for explanations of symmetries that ought to exist for our Universe to have been able to arise from "nothing", that's a huge project.
 
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When I refer to physical simetries I'm talking about all that stuff saying that at some moment in the past (in fact a little fraction of a second after the big explosion) the 4 forces (electromagnetism, the weak and strong and gravity) were the same. The particles involving the forces were the same and the fields too. Sorry if I'm not too rigurous in my exposition but the main problem is that I do not understand it
 
werner Heisenberg said:
When I refer to physical simetries I'm talking about all that stuff saying that at some moment in the past (in fact a little fraction of a second after the big explosion) the 4 forces (electromagnetism, the weak and strong and gravity) were the same. The particles involving the forces were the same and the fields too. Sorry if I'm not too rigurous in my exposition but the main problem is that I do not understand it
Nobody understands it. That symmetry (believed to exist by BB theorists before one Planck time) represents an unknown singularity. In this cosmology, all symmetries were spontaneously broken in about a billionth of a second.
 
werner Heisenberg said:
When I refer to physical simetries I'm talking about all that stuff saying that at some moment in the past (in fact a little fraction of a second after the big explosion) the 4 forces (electromagnetism, the weak and strong and gravity) were the same. The particles involving the forces were the same and the fields too. Sorry if I'm not too rigurous in my exposition but the main problem is that I do not understand it
The answer to include all forces will require an understanding, or reasonable theory of the "Grand Unified Theory" (GUT), but none are workable as of this date last I heard.

See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_force
where part states that:
Currently, there is no accepted candidate for a theory of quantum gravity. The search for an acceptable theory of quantum gravity, and a quantum mechanical grand unified theory, are important areas of current physics research. Until such a search is successful, the gravitational interaction cannot be considered as a force because it is of a geometrical rather than dynamical nature
(My Italics)

Also see the whole page at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_unified_theory where it is mentioned several times.
 
thanks, I will take a look at this page and try to understand something
 
But how can a particle turn to another. I can't conceive a Z particle turning into an electron or a photon. they are just not the same and I suposed that they have always benn different
 

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